Aircraft "Falling" - Emergency descend explained
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ธ.ค. 2024
- What does airline pilots do when the masks drops in the back? What is a rapid decompression and how do we deal with it?
These are some of the questions I will tackle in this podcast in my Aircraft failure management series. Make sure to watch it to the end in order to get the most out of it!
Welcome!
On this channel you can expect video-blogs, technical instructions, flying techniques and much more about the wonderful world of commercial aviation and the life of airline pilots.
I am using my 13 years of experience as an airline pilot, training-captain and TRI/TRE to give you MY view of the airline business and the role of an airline pilot.
All the content is intended to give you a positive and constructive view into the fantastic world of commercial aviation.
Please keep your comments and questions in the same spirit and please INTERACT. The channel becomes much better then and its intended for YOUR benefit.
The content on this channel is for info and entertainment only and is not intended to replace any existing FCOM manuals or SOP's.
I am only talking for myself and do not represent any specific company, airline or entity.
Love finding these older videos of mentour. It's awesome to see that the quality of the content has always been amazing and the amount of knowledge blows me away
When you just found an old half hour video of Mentour and didn't know it existed before..... Best moment of the day! XD
Excellent! There are quite a few old nuggets out there now. The quality isnt great but the info holds!
Perfect for waiting to pick up the Mrs. From work. Lol
@@MentourPilot it's a gem
Hell yeah lol, goad to see how far you’ve come MP
Thanks for doing this. I really hate flying, I'm scared as hell, I'm really panicking just thinking of it. Your videos helps a lot understanding what going on. Again thanks, keep up the great work:)
Having flown to high altitude cities up to 13,000ft around peru such as cusco, I quickly understand how altitude can affect your breathing and ability to think. I'm glad boeing decided to change the high altitude buzzer from the one that sounds like the takeoff configuration warning horn, it sadly cost the lives of all those onboard the helios jet. A vocal warning to done the masks would also be a nice feature to help confused asphyxiated pilots, who may not understand the cause of the warning noise.
You can do altitude training that will make yo capable of getting to 20,000 feet without oxygen without too many problems, and some nutcases have got way higher EG Peter Habeler and Rinhold Messner summiting the 29,000 feet of Everest without oxygen. If you are a ground loafer doing anything physical at 8000 is going to mess you up. I'm surprised that pilots do not seem to get any altitude acclimitisation other than some specialist military ones (EG in the RAF).
I am absolutely loving all the videos. I have them playing in the background on my headphones while I am working and I am learning so much about the aviation industry. Thank you so much for doing all these videos :)
I remember subscribing to your channel when you first told your instagram followers you were starting a new project on TH-cam, actually I was one of your first 10 subscribers. It's amazing to see how far you've come in just a few months time.. but anyway, it's no surprise at all when one realizes how much effort and commitment you put into your videos! I hope to soon be able to get through your airline's cadet selection process and, who knows, maybe get to know you as my future colleague! Thank you so much Peter!!
This is going to be the best channel about flying from a pilot perspective. Keep it up!
If I can't find a way to whitelist your channel on my ad blocker, I will change ad blocker. You deserve all the support you can possibly get! ;)
I'm a Jew (not kidding)
And your last name scares me
Marco Nasti His channel link
what about Captain Joe?
Joe and Mentour are AWESOME!
Tack så mycket Petter! Been through one last Wednesday and this was the best explanation I found - detailed, objective, very informative. Great pedagogic and communication skills. Well done! :)
Great video. I’m currently going through my small jet training. The only thing that I have been taught, it might be different in a Boeing 737. But we conduct an emergency descent almost immediately, after checking the status of the aircraft and we have already donned our oxygen masks. We put in the emergency 7700 n just start going down and at the same time we contact ATC. I’m taught that as soon as you put that emergency 7700 that the ATC will monitor you closely and move everything out of your way. It’s not until we reach a safe altitude that we start looking at alternate airports. But to be honest during the decent the first officer will probably be looking at alternatives anyhow but a lot of his time is spent feeding the captain info such as speed, rate of descent etc. Thanks for another great video.
This made me think about Payne Stewart and his Lear crash. Do any types of aircraft have the ability to automatically decend if decompression occurs? If so how does it warn ATC and other traffic that would be obviously affected by a sudden descent.? Your channel is a treasure trove of info and I'm not even a pilot. Wish I was.
I actually have a story from a passenger perspective. I remember I was on a flight from Bradley International Airport to an airport in Ocala, I forget which one. Anyways as we were taxing out to the runway we pulled to the side and stopped for a while. The pilot informed us that the master caution light had gone on in the cockpit and they were trying to sort out the problem. We ended up returning to the gate and deplaning and we were going to be put onto an entirely different plane. So after a few hours we boarded the new plane and the pilot on the PA informed us that there had been issue with the cabin pressurization system. The rest of my vacation went without incident. I’m just happy they caught the problem on the ground rather than it failing mid-flight
You are simply superb in explaining everything in so much detail yet in simple language. I have seen dozens of your videos and watching more and more. My heartfelt regards to you.
I have no idea why I find this so interesting. Yes I've worked on passenger and military aircraft including design work, but I have never had the inclination to fly anything other than gliders and light aircraft. Could watch this channel all day (and actually have once). Not only that but most of the conversations seem to be with or by people who use their brain as more than an ornament.
Hi Mentor
This was a very useful video for me. It describes the working of the pressurisation system and its malfunction in a relatable way so that I can directly understand. It shows this drastic maneuver to be a planned process and not a crazy helter skelter thing, the way movies like to depict it.
Thank you for your work.
Timothy
Say hey, Mr. Mentour pilot.
Im so glade to have happened across your most excellent channel. I am not a pilot but did a bit of flying with my friend back in the late 70's to early
80's. We took excursions around various place in Texas and Oklahoma.
While I watch your channel I visualize
flying with you in the cockpit. Thank you so much sir. Be Well.
Regards from N.Tx.
dog bugler
This series on Aircraft Failure M... ROCKS.
Kjempeinformative videoer du har! Flyr ofte jeg, men har fremdeles litt "flyskrekk"! Men disse videoene dine hjelper fordi de er veldig opplysende om hvor hvor sikkert det egentlig er å fly! Tusen takk for all den flotte informasjonen du gir!!
Finally a subject that shows concern.
This the best channel.
There R millions who would want to become a pilot, I'M ONE OF THEM this goes straight to learn how to fly I watch day & night. The way mentour teaches it's just very easy to learn. Awesome, & awesome God bless the mentour pilot.
Thank you thank you Mentour
Great video! Calm. NO panic. Great CRM.
Excellent briefing Capt.
Late to the party but I experienced an emergency decent over the Aegean see. Me and my fiance had idea what what's going on and thought this was the end.
I traveled a ton for business and had zero issues with that but the year after I was so extremely afraid to fly but still had to.
Finding this video helped me with a bit closure of understanding what happened and realizing the flight crew did the right thing.
Just wanted to say thanks for making flying a bit better.
I think it would be important to inform passengers what happens during an emergency descend. This could even be done by a pre-recorded message. A friend of mine had experienced one years ago. As she is not big into science, she thought they were going to crash, as the aircraft seemed to be 'falling'.
A flight attendant once told me that they appreciate when passengers complain about headaches. Armed with that information they can request the pilot increase cabin pressure and they too will feel better.
Lower cabin pressures mean lower operating costs - the airlines are all for that
Could this be why I usually have a headache and low energy by the time a Jetstar flight is over and need Panadol. I wondered if it was pollutants in the bleed air.
I really like this channel. I’m not a pilot, and way to old to become professionally, but on and off I fly a lot and I would really like to know more. I suspect that you, Petter, initially thought this out for your students or cadets as you, but you will find yourself with a way broader public than that, everyone from curiosity seekers as myself to people who are absolutely terrified of flying that may come over their fear and actually widen there horizons, a life changer in a way. I also see many similarities between how you handle issues and as we in the medical field handle them (I am an M.D. and a civilingenjör). I see potential bilateral-beneficial benchmarking that could improve for both our professions, and ultimately our clients (you say pax, we say patients). Wish all the best 👍✈️
REALLY happy about the new intro...
Had my car speakers up high before clicking the video by coincidence.
Hooooly craaaap that intro was amazing 😍
What is your take on the use of automation during an emergency? Some instructors say "You need all the help you can get!" and others will tell you that it is safer to take the plane by hand because you don't know what else is wrong with it. Is it a company specific procedure? During a rapid descent, wouldn't it be faster to manually intervene? thanks for all the help!
Captain, great podcast. I realize an emergency descend must be a very nervwrecking manouver since you rely on visual clues and TCAS to keep aircraft separation until ATC becomes aware of the situation and reacts. The manouver by itself puts other people's lives at risk as well, not just the people onboard the aircraft that is having problems so it must be a terrible but necessary decision to make as a commander under stress. Especially in bad weather with limited visibility. Let's hope that is a decision you only need to make in the sim.
Excellent video captain. Keep up the good work
nice & useful
i enjoyed
thanks captain
Your a brilliant teacher
Hi Peter:-) THANK YOU for all of your content...you have been helping me to over come my anxiety of flying for maybe two years now: please continue your great work! (i am an anxious-flying systems-engineer...lol)
Topic question: Every now and then, I can hold my breath for periods of between 30 and 90 seconds (depending on whatever-at that time).....do you think that for pilots; taking a deep breath when hearing the alarm, and holding breath while fitting their oxygen masks could be a procedural benefit....or degradation of safety?
No hurry for an answer....best wishes to you, and your colleges and family of course, From mid wales UK and we are most grateful
YEEEEEE--HAAAAAA!! :-)
Very glad i found your channel man. Thank you for the awesome videos. Back to my online commercial ground school, cant wait to one day have a career like yours!
Nice. I will be going in the SIM in about a month training these things during my OCC :) Thanx..
Fantastic content from day 1 💪
I would like to congratulate you for this channel, the extensive effort exerted to come up with this is obvious, I would like you to make a video about the 737-800 Autopilot, as a continuation of the FMC setting video, the MPC podcast should answer questions like why there are 2 autopilots? when do they disconnect? how to use Vnav and Lnav? do the Vnav sometimes does not work? and so on...I will really appreciate that very much,
I have read other comments that this is an older video. Petter was doing a quality job even from the beginning. Breathing is pretty important for the crew and passengers. In seconds so much is changing to arrive at a level where everyone can be safe. This is done rapidly as well as to discover what is causing the depressurisation.
Very good video. Well done.
Great episode! 👏
Always nice and informative to listen to you.
I can only hope that should my mask drop during a flight, I will recognize your voice informing all passengers we are experiencing a minor technical problem. The plane should be back under control, before we reach the ground.
I remember when I took my SCUBA course we had to factor in our flight time in our Doppler dive charts because of the pressurization.
Hi this is a great channel so interesting even for someone like myself I don’t fly but have always been interested since my uncle was a raf fighter pilot in Vietnam and the best pilot he could land backwards and do all the tricks 😎 great channel keep it up 🙂🙂🙂
Outstanding video! I guess one thing you do not do is keep climbing, like the Helios crew did.
brilliant talk petter hope i never have to go through it for real but it's great to have an idea what is going on if i do.
A great explanation video, well organized, but nearly had a heart attack at 13:08. Listening with concentration after all.
Cool video
Great work
Great video, as usual! When you are done with the emergency series, can you go back to flight school with different study techniques on how to successfully manage to obtain all theory needed. Starting my ab-initio next year when I'm done with my bachelor grade in aviation :)
It should be "first bachelor year" since the bachelor grade includes the ab-initio in the last two years and some other courses in the first year...
+Mentour Pilot sounds great! would love to
participate, but unfortunately my flight training doesn't start until the summer...
thank you so much for this podcast :) I'm about to watch it
Awesome channel mentour pilot! Love ur videos. Not gonna lie your channel is better than captain joe because i understand ur explanation more easier than captain joe
Very informative video!!! Liked!
explosive decompression is something you have to see to believe, everything fogs up. if you're at cruise altitude, until that pressure equalizes, whatever isn't bolted down or strapped in within a 20 foot radius of that hole is going away.
Or there is a door that blows out, or something like that~ mentour pilot 2016
That is the most casually explained, of hand comment, I have ever seen
Christoffer Waltersdorff True but it has happened before.
Or a roof blows off... happened(aloha airlines)
It felt like watching an action movie :-) Thank you
I heard the pilots who flew soldiers to Kandahar, in Afghanistan had to do a combat landing each time. That meant flight altitude to ground in 90 seconds, "one way journey to hell, baby.......... going down" (Hudson).
The chart shows show surprisingly LONG duration of "useful consciousness" until reaching extremely high altitudes, yet only a few seconds delay in pilots donning killed both Payne Stewart and Helios 522. WHEN THE MASK DROPS, GRAB IT!
Very Informative :) Thanks a Lot ! Love Your Channel
Great video, as every time. But one question (as a PMDG pilot): do I really switch on ALL lights on descend, including the retractable? AFAIK they are allowed to use only below 10k ft...
Thanks a lot cpt,by the way the O2 emergency masks in the 737-800 will drops at cabin altitude of 14,000ftThank you sir.
18:57 - Why bring the thrust levers back and close them during the decent along with putting the speed brakes out? Wouldn’t this slow your decent and increase the amount of time before reaching a breathable altitude? Wouldn’t thrust power you down faster?
Dear Mentour, I know how rare it is to have the rubber jungle deployed, as they say in the industry. I once had it flying in early 1970's, where the pressurization did not happen quick enough after takeoff, and after a short while, we were able to continue to our final destination. Has this ever happened for real to you?
Great video, sir, enjoyed watching it.
If I may suggest something - when you show tables with data in feet - could you also include meters, just for reference for those unfamiliar with imperial system? I know feets are used in aviation for altitude, but it still would be helpful for random people watching the video :)
I would like to see a video on what to do if your plane is being hijacked from a pilots point and a passengers point. Like what happened on board United 93
Good luck getting solid information on that false flag operation.
Fascinating.
I do realize that my question is sidetracked to the subject of this video, but I was wondering if you could be so kind to share some information about the cockpit access procedures. Now, in the tragic wake of the germanwings accident, we all learned that the captain was locked out of the cockpit, and this was possible because there is some kind of access override accessible only from inside the cockpit. Now, of course this makes sense, because if an entry code becomes compromised, the pilots must be able to isolate themselves completely, even from the rest of the crew. But - I wonder why there is no kind of biometric access too. This might not be usable or practical in normal procedures, but in some kind of emergency, it could be. We've all seen spy movies where you cut the finger of somebody just to stick it to a fingerprint reader, maybe a retina scan would not work when a plane is shaking violently, a face recognition is not 100% secure - and so on. So my question (unless this violates any kind of sensitive information disclosure) is more related to...has anything changed as a result of this, has the industry taken notice of this potentially flawed procedure that initially (and understandably) was conceived starting from the idea that no crew member would even intentionally want to harm anybody else (even though there are some other tragic examples in the history of aviation) ? Personally I have always considered the fact that pilots need to use the cabin bathroom, a bit weird, because it creates the premise for a security breach. Are there any planes that have a direct bathroom accessible from the cockpit ? Regardless of everything, I am old enough to have experienced flying way before all the paranoia. Back in 1992 I was flying back to Europe from US, and I spent a couple of hours in the cockpit - the pilots were smoking, having coffee, joking (I was 15 years old back then) - in the cabin everybody was laughing, drinking, joking (again smoking - debatable, as even being a smoker I would not agree to smoking even again on planes). A big plane (747), with such a relaxed atmosphere, casual - tended to feel like a cruise ship - friendships would be created, telephone numbers exchanged (no FB, mobile or email addressed existed). I also remember way before that, back in 1984 I also was flying frequently long haul with my mother, and as soon as I fell asleep she would go in the back and hang around with other passengers and flight attendants. I also remember in some occasions that the cockpit door stayed open - how awesome was that, and I would sneak to the door just the get a glimpse inside. I truly believe that that period was the end of the golden age of aviation (which started in the 40' with the boeing long range seaplanes). I miss that period, but as with everything that surrounds us in any industry and domain, it will never come back. is that good, is that bad ? It's everyone's personal decision.
Bad, in that we have loonatics and religious zealots willing to kill themselves and others to make a point. And they're loose in society.
Never had an Auto Fail light until yesterday. No sound just the light. Packs on auto bleeds on. We did have an unusually rapid decent at one point reached 3100fpm. But other than that, can't figure why the light came on. No loss of DC power. 737-31S
SO interesting !
As a kid, I'd build and fly gliders made of Balsa wood and paper. I'd assemble and paint miniatures of Messerschmidt Bf-109s, MiG-29s and Harriers. Heck, I even loved the paper airplanes from Ken Blackburn's book about "The World Record Paper Airplane."
Sadly, thanks to 9/11 and the TSA... I don't enjoy flying anymore! If I ever have children, I don't think they'll ever experience nor have the joy of seeing the flight deck, of interacting with the pilots while in flight. The "magic" of aviation.... like I did as a child.
That being said - thank you for another great video! As an ER nurse, I'm fascinated by what other professionals do when they have an emergency!
OF ALL the planes flying worldwide, how many engines are being checked on a daily basis for STRESS CRACKS that might cause.a.engine.to.explode ur southwest airline,
What would happen if the pressure control valve were to jam in the closed position? Is it possible for the engine bleed air to overpressurize the cabin to the point that it would essentially pop? I assume the bleed air comes from the early stages of the compressor so maybe the potential pressure can't ever be that high.
arh my daily addiction to " Mentour" My NO 1 Channel on youtube !..Now, is there an actual video simulation off this emergency procedure to watch?
For most of this video I thought you were talking about someone named "Hiroshi" like a hypothetical Japanese co-pilot.
Finally realized it was "He or She"
That explains why I kept falling asleep while riding my bicycle in winter with my face completely covered except for vision.
14:13 I remember hearing the memory aid for that: 77, we're falling from heaven.
Very informative me tour keep it up and do u have a rough idea when the nExt video will be out because I check ur channel everyday
Greetings.
Have you ever had to deal with this outside of the simulator and have you ever felt incapacitated during flight?
Great video as always.. Thx captain ;)
22:48 Surely the skipper should perform a MoCA test on the first mate in emerg. descent...?
First Officer testing if they air is breathable:
"Snifffff. Ah, smells like excellent crew resource management."
That new intro is the best
Love your content. Been listening to your podcasts all week. Should consider adding a pop filter to your microphone though :)
Could the outflow valve be blocked and cabin be overpressured by bleed air that keeps flowing due to another failure?
Please would you be kind enough to answer a question that has puzzled me for years.
Using the Android phone that I am typing on right now, I can accurately determine my ground speed. The last time I flew (possibly you were the captain) I held my phone by the window and the GPS gave me the ground speed.
A few years ago, a plane fell out of the sky over the South Atlantic. It stalled due to going too slowly. Its peto tubes were blocked or faulty. The crew had no Idea of their airspeed. My phone wouldn't have told them of their airspeed either. But I tell you what, in that situation, I'd have gladly substituted groundspeed for airspeed. Why don't they utilise the GPS to at least give them an accurate groundspeed?
The important speed for the pilot is not really the ground speed but the AIR speed. You can be going at 300 knots GS while having a 200 knot tailwind (oh well, lets just say it exists). Your airspeed will be 100 knots and you are stalling!
On a different case, you could be going at 20 knot GS while having a 250 knots headwind (assumption). You WILL stay airborne as your AIRSPEED is 270 knots!
This is exactly why GS cannot substitute IAS.
Hi Mentour, first, I'd like to thank you for great videos you are putting out. They are awesome. Just curious what is vertical speed on 737-800 during emergency descent? I've tried it in FSX + PMDG 737-800 (FL380 -> FL100) and with GW around 60 t achieved V/S 4500-5000 ft/min. Is this V/S achievable with real 737?
Thanks i live in denmark when i get 16 i can start flight training in a 2 man aircraft :D great vid really aprecciated
No problem i Will on insta my name is oscarlindehey
@@oscarlindehey7512 What are you up to 5 years later? :-)
Good job showing telling,I get the fast going down yes . Well see ya next time see ya bye bye.
great educator, Sir.
at 19:00 you "close the throttles..." moving your throttle arm back
so you set the engines to idle?
did the auto-pilot throttle them back up at 10,000 feet?
Its more scary than anything, but they couldn’t fix the pressurization, and masks dropped quickly, the emergency descent made more than one person motion sick. Then we flew around for it seemed like 45 minutes before we landed in phx or abq. I was 17 at the time and mom was not in the mood once we got on the gound.
wizbang68 that last sentence sounds really bad without context
remember to enter cheat code 7700 for priority landing everywhere XD
7500 might get you some more love after you land...
Hell yeah. Hijack attempts would also be a good reason to park the plane on a strip nearby, preferably in a country with 'not so luxurious' and long term state hotels. Don't forget to dump fuel during the dive. ( if a dump valve exists that is)
Welcome to Steam Edition.
@@paco4756 'and we have a hot air balloon doing about 400kts by the tower'
Southwest aircraft accident did she descent right away or she controlled the descent?
Recently there had been an accident in India involving 737 and cabin pressure. It is a fact the pressurization of cabin is kept off in order to apply full thurst during take off. At about 8000 feet the cabin is pressurized taking a feed from the engine. I understand that the Oxygen Masks had to be manually deployed when the aircraft went above 12000 feet. And the aircraft had to return to base after doing Emergency Descent procedure. It is alleged that the pilots forgot to activate the pressurization procedure and this was a two step procedure. The pilots were taken off duty for this lapse. The passengers had headaches, some had nosebleeds and ear bleeds.
I looked up the checklist from the net but did not find the relevant portion. You have correctly described the procedure adopted after there is loss of cabin pressure like closing the pressure valve and the procedure during emergency descent and the checklist. My question is : Does this pressurization of the cabin after take off has a relevant checklist. If yes how both the pilots missed the vital point.
The outside temperature at 30,000 feet is -48F because of low pressure. Does a rapid decompression cause fogging or even frost forming in the passenger cabin ?
This event is the fear of my flying, even though i know in emergency descent it would be relatively safe doing it, it’s like rides, i physically would hate it
Interesting video! I just wonder how common a rapid decompression in connection with an emergency descent is? I have a college who experienced an emergency descent as a passenger on a flight. Then I checked incidents on the Internet for this specific airline, and I noticed it had happened a few times quite recently.
+Daniel Bengtsson Hi! It is fortunately quite rare but it does still happen from time to time.
Hi Mentour Pilot! Thanks for the answer! It is really interesting to follow these informative podcasts.
Daniel Bengtsson what airline was it that had the multiple rapid descents?
Verry nice videos! I learned a lot from you. And btw. Where are you from??
+Mentour Pilot Ok, thanks for being interactive! I think you don't want to answer this quiestion but which airline are you flying for at the moment?? I'm guessing ryanair. If so I hope to see you in the future :)
You mentioned setting QNH for the height above the airfield with a banner amending this to heigh above sea level. Would QFE be better, assuming the civil air agencies use this?
Great informative video! You mention several times about the possibility of the door missing. How would that happen? On some longer flights from the Americas to Asia I have gotten paranoid when passengers hang out by the door thinking that if they are terrorists they could open the door and we'd be screwed. Probably not possible, but it has run through my mind. Is that even possible when you factor in pressurization?
The cargo doors on most aircraft open outwards since it gives them more cargo space, incidents have happened in the past where the locking mechanisms on those have failed in flight. Some aircraft also don't have plug doors on the overwing exits and instead use a locking mechanism that is connected to the weight on wheels switch. Of course neither of these should ever disengage in flight but electrical problems can happen I can't think of any historical incidents on planes in the last few decades where it wasn't the cargo door though since they usually have an electric mechanism and electric locking latches the overwing doors only have electric locking latches it would still need someone to manually turn the handle to open those.
Pretty much all doors on passenger jets have to open inwards (then swing outwards) so the cabin pressure will make it impossible for any human to open them in flight.
T T at normal Cruise alttitudes it is not possible to Open any cabin doors or cockpit windows, due to the pressure on the door, but sometimes it has happened that cargo doors have unlocked during flight. A United 747 for example
DC-10s had a rash of cargo door openings back in the 70s
I assume when the pilot squawks 7700 that ATC starts moving planes flying beneath out of the way in case you need a rapid descent?
You "achieve" astonishingly low "thumbs down" ratios. Even the _very_ best video producers accumulate trolls like ships accumulate barnacles. TH-cam producers everywhere wants to know: "How to you prevent 'video barnacles' from accumulating?"
Exactly 100 : 1 ratio at the time of this comment.. impressive.
He seems to be the "Fred Rogers" or "Bob Ross" of Aviation. How would anyone be able to downvote that professional sounding Swedish Accent?
Either that or there are less dickheads watching which is also possible. Glad you reminded me I forgot to thumbs up.
This is a special interest channel centered on aviation, which has very high standards for professionalism and good attitude. Just look at the lack of trolls in the comment section.
@MasterVertex there are other aviation channels and some of those get trolls. I cant remember the name of the guy but he got a right roasting when he decided to go back to light aircraft instructing from commercial passenger work.