Huge Esports Drama
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มิ.ย. 2024
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0:00 Intro
0:40 Ad
2:32 LCS Troubles
4:27 NACL Mandate
6:37 LCS Walkout
12:07 Riot Response
15:56 Now What
This Video was EDITED BY ME
#mogulmail #ludwig #leagueoflegends #operapartner
A major thing to remember is that the "player association" is not a union, they don't have the same powers and obligations as such
I don't know the specifics for the LCSPA, but the MLBPA and NFLPA are both unions despite not having union in the name. Also federal law (Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act) protects employees rights to collective bargaining, including striking. Considering they are headquartered in California, the laws are probably even more strict at the state level.
@@grampaseri this one specifically isn't a union, they aren't affiliated with anyone or have had a union vote
@@technetium9653 Just having a title to unite under when deciding for a walkout, is more than enough to make changes. After all, the competetive scene is made up of quite a small amount of people, so it can all collapse pretty fast.
@@technetium9653 Understood, thank you for the clarification. That said, their right to organize and take action is still protected, even without being a union.
They refused to be a union years and years ago. They didnt want to enfore minimum and max salaries because they see that the salary gets inflated by a mile every year. they reap what they sow.
A slight correction here: league used to have a promotion/relegation system, and it was even better than valotant’s. It used to be the bottom 2 teams (I think) would get demoted and the top 2 NACL/minor league teams would get promoted. However, riot eventually shifted to the franchised system which has led to where we are now.
Correction from responses: these four teams actually played each other to keep/gain the spot, which is even better, as it causes the NACL teams to “prove” that they are better than the LCS team they are trying to take the spot of
Riot are liars and cheats. They knew this would happen and they sold out anyways
It was even better than that! The bottom two from LCS and top two from challengers would have to play each other for the spot. Whoever won would keep/gain that spot.
@@pretentiousfly riot isnt running shit. They are owned by tencent lol
@@oyeahisbest123 That doesn't mean Tencent micro manages Riot. Riot still for the most part is allowed to do what they want as long as it aligns with Tencents mission.
Thanks Reginald!
Keeping the mustache is a good way to help us tell the difference between you and Ludwig
@rous jake thank you, I was looking for this everywhere, couldn't find it. Was about to unalive myself, you saved my life.
Ludwig is mogul mail the joke is old even ludwig said he's mogul mail create a new joke
@@deadboltzz5199 why are half your comments on this channel you complaining about the mogul mail joke? 😂
@@deadboltzz5199 Wait, for real? Is he really Ludwig??
Ludwig's mustache looks like 13y old trying too hard to look like an adult
i love how a riots response to all this is "nah we dont wanna" in simple terms
The LCS is stagnating and people are getting tired of it solely because of the teams holding all this power. The point you made about DIG was very solid-- why should those players try to improve when the team itself is not there to compete, but to do dogshit and eventually find a buyer for said team?
I'm sure a lot of players feel this and lose the motivation to get better because there's no new up and coming talent and they always get curbstomped year after year at worlds. Riot need to actually do SOMETHING, even if it breaks the bank unless they want to become blizzard 2.0
Dignitas had some really good players, as in Santorin and Jensen, Both champions and world attendants. The rest of the team was underperforming (by a lot) and there is only so much 2 guys can do in a 5 vs 5.
Also, no player goes into the LCS to perform as dogshit. It's their livelyhood. They know they will get benched or kicked if they don't perform. No one is there to lose, they simply can't do better.
@@Yquan151 Then the other three players and the team itself are at fault for not trying to improve themselves or simply getting better players (They wont because DIG isn't anything more than an investment for the owners most likely). You misunderstand me, I'm not saying NA players are intentionally doing shit or aren't trying their hardest, I'm simply saying that the LCS is stagnating because there's literally no new blood, and that's not the fault of the players.
Yeah, even if lcs dies, competitive league will still be thriving on a global scale
No one gives a shit about NA LCS. They should pull the money from the region elsewhere. LCS is a rotten appendix
I wonder if Esports is dying , or if this is the result of bad management. ( i hope esports will not die because its fun and a opportunity for players to gain money by doing something they like)
Ludwig wouldn't shave his mustache even to make a kid's wish come true.
Who’s Ludwig? This is Mogul Mail
@@Dundeee Ludwig is mogul mail’s evil twin
@@Dundeee haha funny, we doing the same joke for years and years. Funny ludwig short lol
@@HostileAtHeart go make yourself a peanut butter sandwich, you need something else to do with your time for the next 5 minuets
@@willthunder7212 What in the world were you even trying to do there? Whatever it is, it didn't work.
I'd love to see the main teams "accept" riot's demands, then once their games start they just fake AFK, like never hitting each other, just minions and turrets for an hour
Whoever surrenders first gets free dinner.
would be funny if they set the world record of longest competitive game that way. like just sitting in base for hours till the game crash
2023 Official Rules (v. 23.0) LCS:
14.2.3. Competitive Integrity. Teams are expected to play at their best at all times
within any Game, and to avoid any behavior inconsistent with the principles of
good sportsmanship, honesty, or fair play.
@@tommey2331 🤓🤓
It is in the contracts that riot can fine you if you don't abid by the official rules. If they want to suddenly want to owe thousands of $ or do a court battle with riot lawyers than sure, do your stupid idea.
Franchising in general was the worst decision that any esport can do. Its led to nothing but problems
@ThePatrikPerspective I completely agree in that aspect but it's because more often than not organisations cannot manage teams that well
Honestly, I wonder if Riot sees this as an opportunity to toss the LCS as a whole and then restart with the better structure. The teams have too much power for them to do that now, , but if its the teams that refused to put up players then its no longer Riot messing with the teams who invested millions in buying in to League
From the 1st response i think Riot is just given up that NA doesn't stand a change as competitive region. They rather take the steady income from team.
@@arikorma9059 As if they're even competitive anymore, not gonna lie they also loose a lot even in that mobile moba game.
On the "No NA Talent" point, thats kind of a whole other can of worms. While NA does have less talent available than other major regions there has been a lot of debate and criticism levied towards teams about them ignoring even the best NA players over imports who often turn out to be mediocre
NA definitely has talent. It's mostly being able to cultivate that talent. It's why Korea is so good. It's bcuz of the culture and infrastructure.
Orgs also have a huge focus on veteran players and won't take a step to find new talent rarely ever.
True, I think team liquid is a big representation of foreign talent being mediocre at least in the current time frame,though I think the only foreign talent now who I guess ain't so foreign who kept their skill was impact. I think LCS biggest problem is paying bloated amounts for players who don't try.
@@michelleb2722 the veteran status is a kinda draw for old fans I guess, though tbh the only vets I wanna see are sneaky and meteos.
@@bk10gu35 I'm an old school LCS fan as well but I've never had the chance to become a fan of any new NA homegrown talent because it kinda doesn't exist (only ones I can think of are Danny and jojopyun but those are both from EG)
I've been at a union job for 21 years., I started as a contractor (scab but not during a strike) then after 4 years I got on with the company.... And it still took me 10 more years to actually join the union (because of scummy union repeat the time)... But have been a union member and even a reward at one point, since then... The union is weak in my state, but has still allowed me to achieve the American dream of keeping 3 kids alive and owning a home and a few used cars... So good for them, to organize... I hope they get what they want and unionize
Don't confuse your hard earned rights with these manchildren crying about being overpayed and generating no revenue at all
And when I say overpayed, I mean 10 orgs in total losing 90 million per year on salary alone. Thats how overpayed they are
And academy, the players that got their league cancelled, are payed a very decent amount of money plus housed and all housing expenses payed
Only to have 3 k concurrent viewers and generate no talent whatsoever, yeah and teams lose atleast 600 k per year on academy, some even close to two millions
An interesting thing to note is the vastly different franchise system between League and Valo. In league these large corporations paid to be a part of this system. The onus is on the organizations to be profitable and make the system work in compliance with how Riot wants to run the system. Differently in Valorant, organizations CANNOT buy their way into the system. Riot handpicked 30 organizations that they wanted to partner with and are even paying these orgs to be a part of the system. In Valorant the onus of making a good and profitable system is on Riot games themselves. Riot has already profited immensely from organizations paying their way into the League franchise system and now they operate their NA system at a net loss. If Riot discontinues the LCS, they already made a huge hunk of money and theyre having to spend way less on running a not profitable scene
League use to have a relagation system where the bottom 3 teams had to play against the top 3 challenger teams. They ended up canceling it because they said it was hard to get big sponsors. And now we have this system where unless someone sells their team then dogshit teams stay on.
They said it was hard to get big sponsorships, but in reality RIOT sold out to the teams because the teams wanted to guarantee their investors (venture capitalist bros) that it was totally worth it to dump millions into an e-sports team and that once franchised they would be locked in to make more money.
@@RepentandbelieveinJesusChrist "I bear witness that there is no deity but God, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God." Truly repent, not to a human but to the supreme god, Allah Praised and exalted, where your Jesus Christ is only one of many messengers, a find true divinity
@@technetium9653 Muhammad? That guy that married a child? No thanks don't think I want anything to do with that
I'll stick with the "human" (literally the son of God/literally god) that actually did good things for people
Imagine believing stories made up by people over 2000 years ago that were on shrooms
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 Tell me, why didn't god intervene when his devout followers sexually abuse altar boys??? hmmmmmmm
Imagine losing your 1 mill sub playbuton. Mogul mail would never
Wow
it's a playbutton from susan..... you are given 10 Playbutton per channel.
Mogul mail is dating an ugly Karen… imagine wasting your youth with a cringe woman hahahahaha
@Master Chiefy Susan hasn't been the CEO of TH-cam for a while...
@@blacksuitnotieshe was when he got it though…
Your takes on the relegation/franchise system are spot on! It is the reason why I personally stopped following the LEC. It feels like the league is stagnating and nothing is at stake as a viewer. It also decreases the quality of the minor leagues because it is not worth it to invest a lot into minor league teams if they can't access the major league ever. Just feels like a huge missed opportunity to me on the long-term to make league esports more attractive.
@@thepatrikperspective I dont know you, but i feel no attachment to "invested in team so they won" nor i feel any interest cheering a team with a big check behind. Teams get bought and sold as if it was a random commodity. No reason to identify with a team, their values are not sport-like or regional, or due to stories. Players come and go even more so than teams.
Under the franchise system Ive lost any interest in LEC over time and now I have no team to cheer for.
If I watched whatever sport ludwig supports I wouldnt feel any different. To me, a check behind a team doesnt give me a reason to support a team. Not even if the check comes from a streamer I like. It just loses the sports part of it.
They can definitely grow with more teams with a collective bargaining. It really comes down to Riot feels like they have no actual direction or drive to solve things with how things are split.
I miss leagues relegation games. It was always fun that a team of friends could get together and become a pro team.
That’s like what xPeke did with Origen. Form a Team and go up to the then EULCS and won the season and qualified to worlds, in like 1 year. In spite of what has happened since then with the Team it was super fun to watch their progress.
They really missed how psychologically important that was too for viewers. Promotion games made it feel like anyone could make their esports dream come true. Even if that feeling was never accurate it was still a big boon for the scene.
This is why relegation is great, it means teams have to be competitive and always trying to improve. New talent can come out of nowhere I think riot should just try and make a new league
While Na has never been competitve.
@@tutowo7304it’s only after relegation is removed, they were decent before.
@@Torannn How about LPL & LCK?
Outside of C9, are we actually gonna pretend that teams that promotes into LCS were winning ever? Like most of them just got relegated a split or two later.
I think the best route here is for riot is to cut the NA challenger series and invest into the college scene. The LEC (EU LCS) is a franchised league but are able to have a steady flow of young talent from each individual countries challenger league. Since the US is not a group of countries we can't really have that but the closest thing we can get to that is the college scene. In regular sports, the college scene is very popular and sometimes gets more viewers that pro sports. Colleges in the US have a large endowment for sports and if riot starts to put an effort to develop the college scene it might be a great pipeline for the LCS. I know the college scene is still small and not the best right now, but I think it's the only place that could possibly have the infrastructure to be a large challenger league. A 10 team challenger league of academy teams doesn't work. It's clear alot of the player are coasting or just will never make it into the lcs. At least with a college circuit, it's more about the competition and winning since its not a job. And if by the time you graduate you aren't LCS level? You have your college degree and can go do your thing. Talent will always circle in and out since people graduate and move on.
ty for ad stamp skip. much love
honestly the opera sponsor segment was the best one ive seen so far because you didn't rush it and actually showed the features
Interestingly, the league used to have relegation. However, the league changed to franchising since the fear of relegation was preventing sponsors from hopping on board with teams. Many people made claims at the time that this could hurt the competitiveness of LCS, and they were all right in my opinion. Now there are a ton of games between teams that have no real chance to win the league, but no incentive to stay away from the floor. This overall leads to less people watching the games.
I don't know if bringing back relegation would actually be a net positive at this point tho. I imagine it would once again scare away money in a league that is hemorrhaging money. As someone who used to watch a lot of LCS and stopped, there are many factors for me personally. One obviously being the lack of international success. Its hard to get excited any more when you know that the teams have no shot to do anything. At least in the past there was a hope, but it feels like each year the gap gets larger. There is also the move away from Bo3s which I think drastically affected the level of competition in LCS and level of creativity players could bring into matches.
But I think more importantly for me personally, is the death of the unique personality. I have been away for awhile, so I might just be out of touch with the scene, but I feel like there were more interesting personalities in LCS when it first started. The last time I tried to watch in, everything just felt so much more sterile. I don't really know how to describe it, but it all just seemed very industrial, when in the past it was much more personal feeling. I'm not really sure how they could get back that feeling though. Also, at the time there was a much bigger novelty toward competitive esports content creation structured esports leagues. They just naturally had an advantage in the past for being newer, and that is obviously gone.
Oh well, there are so many other issues one could bring us with NA league, you could talk about it forever. Unfortunately, I don't really see the league being on a consistent upswing any time soon. There are huge problems on all sides. Business side with the orgs, league side with Riot and LCS management, and player side as well.
Lud the stache works, keep it up. (It doesn't, we're setting you up for failure)
I like it
@@Mutantman looks pretty goofy ngl haha, a pedo-stache does not fit will with his head shape if you ask me lol.
@@lileofficial4273 what if he dyed it pink
He looks a lot better with the clean shaved face. He has a baby-face, the Stache looks very goofy.
@@Mutantman that's just warfstache
As a Brazilian this is pretty funny to me, considering our league CBLOL transitioned the other way around from a relegation system (by popular demand, as far as I'm aware) not too long ago
A huge shakeup is what the eSports scene needs. In a lot of games to be honest. Old big teams hold all the power, and the new and upcoming players and teams get stomped and bullied out. It's like a cycle that keeps going and eating itself, its audience, and its players (losing motivation because "why bother" and all that). So yeah, that's the short version of it and how I generally feel. I know people like to meme that eSports is dying, that competitive games are dying, but no. People like being competitive even without being in a team. It's just hard to be in a team and then get somewhere with that team because of the big ones that will push you off. That's just eSports for the past few years and yeah. It kinda needs that shakeup at the top.
I don't know if you watch CSGO, but I attended the last major in Paris and it was fantastic to see so many little teams and young guys on the Major, fighting and actually winning against the best teams! I mean, a team literally no one had ever heard of made it to the final against Vitality, the favorite for the cup. It's so cool to see small teams have a fighting chance against the top of the top guys, super exciting.
Almost everyone loves an underdog story. I dont understand why they dont push for that (as long as the players are qualified)
For us that have been following League esports since the early days can remember that in the beginning of the LCS they did have relegation and Promotion, but the teams didn't feel safe about it so they convinced Riot to make it franchised in NA and i believe that was a mistake. But unfortunately it also made its way over to EU, even tho it currently works better in EU, I'm not sure if it's going to last.
If it happened today that franchising was suggested i would believe and hope players wouldn't allow it
I think the reason it works in EU is how good the separately done ERL feeding system is at same tim3
@@ThePolarpop i agree, players in europe get a lot more competive games become better and show them selfs to the LEC teams through ERL, and if someone is real good the LEC teams will pick them up
@@EskimoBob1337 its kinda similar to the problem NA has with the nba they cant go straight to the league they need to go to college and then to the league while europeans have been in a league since they where 15/16 sure it works for the NFL since they are the only ones that play that sport and no one cares bout it outside of the states but for anything else is a dogshit system
I'm getting confused because towards the end it just seems like the NA teams are realistically in the wrong for treating their spots like retirement plans and poisoning the NA talent with their laziness.
you're not confused, that's exactly what's happening and it's why this system is so bad
Thats the entire point of the video lol, whats there to be confused about?
If you mean the owners of said teams yes, if you mean the players. No.
“Teams” and “players” are 2 different entities. The teams are in the wrong, the players within the teams are not
@@arugula517 Should probably say org instead of team. Players make up a team. The org owns the team/spot. And yeah the team name is the org name, but there's no team without players.
It does make sense to try to make some changes, but likely it may need to be slow and incremental.
Collective bargaining can be pretty dangerous and tbh if riot had bowed down and agreed to every demand I could have seen it going pretty poorly - just because eSports is already unstable, and 300k for top players would be nice, but things are balanced around teams being worth millions and getting rid of that overnight could crash options people have to be paid for competing.
Not really in the loop that well though
Love to see the pixar dad 'stashe back in action
I have never been a fan of League by any stretch (and now am arguably even less of a fan), but I have mad respect for the solidarity that the players have shown through this incident.
Well, the players have been lazy and stealing.patchecks for years.
The academy players have been stealing paychecks for years, leading their respective orgs to bleed money. Most of them have never or will never effectively make it to the LCS. They also don't do anything to promote their followings. The major players in cycle right now are either imports (e.g berserker, gori, summit etc) or the same ones that have always been in the LCS it is so rare to have a player from the academy make it to the LCS. No one even watches the Academy matches and viewership across the whole LCS has been declining so it honestly feels really shitty for the NACL to come out here making these 'demands' thinking that Riot will just go along with it.
@@hansoloq3467 Stop parroting Tyler 1's views. He plays against these players and has a skewed mindset from all of the legitimate griefing he's experienced through the years. His comments come from a salty peer position rather than a legitimate critical analysis of the scene.
@@Physeky So explain why he is wrong then.
@@abefroman2477 I didn't think I'd have to argue why a multi-billion dollar company (Riot), 100% owned by a multi-trillion dollar company (Tencent) completely going against all agreed terms against workers is bad but here we go. The NALCP which represents the players in the LCS had confirmation from Riot that this wouldn't happen. Yada yada, you saw it in the video. That in itself would be a complete fucking shitstorm in any other avenue of business other than this since the NALCP isn't an actual union and don't have the power that an actual union does in comparison to Riot. If we're talking strictly business this is a complete violation of any common sense labor protections. I really hope you're not on the side of Riot and Tencent swinging their junk around in favor of more mulimillion dollar organizations over regular people like you and me.
If we put ALL that aside and assess the paycheck stealing stuff - most NA players in LCS started in the lower leagues like academy. It does provide talent that moves up. If your next argument is "well those dudes suck", yea, they do. Why? Because the teams don't care. Once they move up it's just stagnation. There's no drive to become the best or even in the org because who cares, it's an investment. Why would the players care? The culture around them is stagnation, they're getting paid, trying hard just means you get held back by your environment and have a less time to do other things you enjoy. The culture needs to change. That's why I agree with Lud's take on partial relegation. There needs to be a drive in the environment you're in to be better. Once we have that in NA, the players will respond in kind.
Tyler takes the player's lack of effort at face value which is understandable. He plays with these people and sees them griefing. When it's not just one or two people, you know it's the system which is what he fails to understand, or at least convey that he does understand. Hope this helps.
Wow esports drama, this never happens
I know, right? Never happens.
At least it doesn't involve minors this time
@@GhettoBagel thank goodness
I know right? It’s never happened before!
@@GhettoBagel wait what? can you please elaborate?
i went to skip over the ad until i saw it was for opera gx and i watched that shit through TWICE
The point about a promotion/relegation system which valorant uses: Once upon a team League also had this same system, it was removed when riot "franchised" the LCS, setting 10 permanent slots to be sold to 10 team owners (at 10 million dollars per slot). The point was that teams wouldn't be able to fundraise as much if they couldn't promise that they'd remain relevant into the future, sponsors were warry of signing onto teams that could eventually get relegated.
Unfortunately, I and many other viewers and players were very against the franchising of League esports. The promotion/relegation tournaments keep the region more competitive by naturally forcing teams to stay in top shape, and allowing fresh talent to rise. It also makes the scene more exciting for viewership, and lastly it benefits armatures to have another way into the LCS than just getting hired by one of the big teams that're already there.
I was once an avid viewer who watched a majority of matches and especially the bracket finals of each season. Now I don't even watch MSI or worlds anymore, Riot has done a good job of making their sport as uninteresting to keep up with as possible. I'm really sad about it to, I know there are a lot of good employees and developers at Riot who want what is best for the game and the scene, but unfortunately the decision makers couldn't resist the fat dollar signs infront of them. It was an immediate cash payout that has genuinely harmed the longterm sustainability of the ecosystem and continues to this day to take it's financial toll on Riot. I hope it was worth it :c
Definitely miss having Tryndamere at the helm. I don't know if he would've truly avoided this mess we have now. But he did seem to care so much more about the game itself than about the money. Franchisement happened the year after he stepped down.
Big companies always lie. You can't trust them even a little. Never show them loyalty, they'll betray you in an instant if it benefits them.
I would not say league viewership is dying because they are bad on the international stage. They were bad years ago and I still watched then. I do not watch now because its hard to get attached to a team when a player you like is there one split and gone/benched the next. That has been the main complaint people have had for quite some time.
faker be like 👁️👅👁️
⚪️ cope
@@littlebigcommentaries9833 ah yes, faker, the best player who also lost to a bunch of EU players playing for fun, faker, the Lil guy with the personality of a cardboard even after years and years of streaming.
I dont hate faker but you fangirls are so annoying with the guy.
@@toobig7150 i mean it's definitely the era of shaker but the guy's point above is not about his personality or performance, it's that he's built a whole decade of fan loyalty by playing for so damn long and many people who haven't played league in many years still want to watch to see him play.
@@red2someru im not saying hes bad, but go and check his streams, hes a cardboard.
and fangirls are annoying regardless of quality of the artist/player/famous
Tbh the Worlds Event is always really awesome because of the whole show they do around it too.
They really deliver on that front, always awesome animations for promotion and especially the last Worlds was kinda epic with Lil Nas X performing, although the other artists were outstanding too. I highly enjoyed watching that.
For the rest of League, well....
that analogy at 10:48 is definitely something slime has said on the the yard before
Valorant Style, means there is no demotion only promotion for the 2nd tier teams. Then after 2 years they would have to fight for their spot and "reearn" it for another 2 years or go back down to the minor leagues. They are asking for it because it would mean that the 10 teams aren't actually in any danger of demoting at any point and could in theory keep their franchise value. So 2 teams promote every year, once 4 teams have promoted only the promoted teams would fight for their spots against the new promotion teams, like it is in Valorant atm
When is there not eSports drama at this point?
Dont know much about league but im not sure you can use picket line and picket fence interchangeably like that, they have very different connotations
More context for anyone that cares:
3:39 it 100% is 5 mil peak viewers, it's just that it includes costreams, which are usually from analysts or casters (either official that didn't participate in the official cast or ex official or indi that are popular).
7:34 The "Valorant style" promotion thing is impossible to implement from Riot's prospective, since they currently have a franchising system, meaning that all the teams that are participating in the LCS have paid 10 mil for their spot, so if they were to implement the "Valorant style" promotion thing, teams in the LCS could lose 10 mil or more (the spot of each team is probably worth more than that now than it was back then).
2nd ask from LCSPA is for Riot to pay 4.8 mil a year so teams don't have to pay, while in the rest of the world all the other tier 2 leagues are self sustainable. So again crazy thing to ask.
3rd ask is fine.
4th ask is impossible since the winning team could want to change their roster and again the thing about other tier 2 leagues being self sustainable.
5th ask is also impossible for the exact same reason as their 4th ask.
In order to fix this riot would have to effectively buy out the spots they sold, which is probably extraordinarily expensive.
the LCS setup reminds me a lot of F1 and some of their current issues. There are 10 teams and it’s basically impossible to join F1 because the FIA chooses whether or not the league is going to add another spot. There is a “minor” league F2 for developing talent who want to race in F1. There is also revenue share between teams. The only major difference is F1 has been growing where as LCS is declining
Really informative video and appreciate the longform as i think it was necessary to explain the whole situation. Would have appreciated slightly better wording (e.g. saying Orgs instead of Teams) because some parts honestly got confusing
You did a great job with explaining this. Competitiveness is important to keep the scene interesting
I am legitimately happy to hear Ludewig talk about this issue because I’ve been thinking about this since I listen to the episode of Hotline League yesterday with the way certain owners of treated the league, especially fucking Andy Dihn it’s been hard to watch the league fall over the last couple years and I think some of these ideas that the players are suggesting is one of the best ways to help our region come back and get better and I hate it It’s a problem with the teams. Here’s an idea nothing anybody’s really listening, but like the players said a 3/5 style rule and having a relegation like system so for example, if the fucking Dignatas team is three and 15 at the end of the season, the five players are kicked from the gym with some sort of moderate pay out and then the gym that wins Challenger league gets to be promoted to that team and then the teams can make changes as needed. They just cannot bring back the same five men on that one team at that time.
I’m a huge esports fan but know very little about the LCS but really found this video to be interesting and informative and wanting to look more into not just the LCS but all esports and how the dynamic between ownership, players, and companies like riot function. Great content and looking forward to more!!!
Can you be more naive? There is nothing in this video that is informative or interesting
Its all bullshit naratives pushed by people because whenever stuff like this happens, nobody bothers to look at facts, instead they rush to defends players, because how can the poor players ever be in a privileged position over the big bad orgs and game developers. The only thing in this instance RIOT did wrong was lie to the players and the orgs literally did nothing wrong and are actively losing money for the players to be overpayed and have shitty performances
Tell me how exactly are they the victims?
picture play is in all browsers
I hate franchising in esports. I've personally played in a now dead game that had franchising and I remember when franchising was implemented as I was still getting good and thinking "wow, this could only go poorly". It's happened in other dead games and even has happened with relatively mainstream games and their esports. Franchising NEVER benefits the players (outside of salaries in the short-term) or the esport's health and it never will. Franchising gives the game company & players cash for running a spectacle but the org buy in puts all the pressure on the esport company and teams to turn a profit, and takes all the accountability away from the "team captains" individually who have control over the team's roster (they got it made with their salaries, what more do they need to do other than show up?), leading to the Dignitas situation where nobody can form a solid roster to relegate (BECAUSE THE SYSTEM DOESN'T EXIST!!).
I was in top teams in our minor league the entire time. It's honestly comical the parallels between how the game I played went compared to how LCS is going now. We had every issue you describe: no relegation system; teams like Dignitas in LCS who are literal jokes the entire time the league exists; the orgs who were doing poorly wanting out but being tied into the system through the franchising agreement and buy in; players as a group/entity having 0 meaningful control over how the league goes. Not to mention other inherent issues like investor money controlling so much of how leagues get ran in literally every way you can imagine, player-related or not, that it ends up being unhealthy too.
Regarding that last point, it was honestly hysterical the entitlement within our esport with our top teams and their players (since our game was literally dead as soon as franchising happened) who had no interest in making any effort individually to make any sort of content to promote our scenes or, you know, do anything at all other than cash in on salaries. And when I told everyone about this issue and that it should be rectified because the scene would be killed, everyone threw their hands up and said "Actually, we aren't obligated to do anything at all and none of this is on us" and then franchising died after 2 years. Then esports support from the game company ran dry the next year after another healthy round of complaining from players that our non-franchise league for a dead game's esport wasn't good enough. Prior to franchising, our esport was actually healthy numbers-wise and things looked awesome!!! But I digress.
Tying back to the main point, franchising basically pushes the esport away from grassroots support to an artificial support structure that is entirely reliant on whether orgs want in or not. The franchising system exists despite the pro players. The players get used to franchising and salaries being an inherent guarantee of being in a franchised system (at least that's how our system worked), the players get lazy because they have to put in practically 0 effort to get paid, the esport rots from inside, it gets killed. It is only a matter of time that this happens to LCS when only a handful of teams are actually competitive. It's honestly kinda funny to me that the players are sticking up for NALCS by staging a walkout because the players individually DO NOT MATTER in the eyes of the orgs or the esport company. They just need to keep it running for their investors and their contract fulfillment. The rest, again, DOES NOT MATTER. Get paid or get out, in their pov. The margins are already slim, if they even make money lol.
TLDR franchising kills esports
Ludwig, the going around players by lifting recruiting rules is called hiring scabs. Anyone that signs for the scab slots should be blacklisted by every esports team on the planet. You don't cross pickets and you don't break strikes
Solidarity forever
The esports teams wouldn't be the ones blacklisting them because they want the games to be played too.
I agree, but I also think it would be kind of funny to watch the teams get filled with a bunch of silver/bronze players for the summer split
So you're saying the teams hiring the scabs should blacklist them at the same time?
If any time requires crossing picket lines, its now. LCSPA does not have the pro player's best interest much less academy players and their demands are mostly outrageous attempts at securing undeserved job security. In a performance based field, having guaranteed jobs for people is the best way to kill it.
its such a coincidence that mogul mail and ludwig got a moustache at the same time
Your room gives off a hallway in a hotel in a casino type of vibe
As someone who has no knowledge of how Esports works, Lud putting this into sports terms helped so much
Riot needed money when league was its main and only real namesake so the NA scene was built around generating revenue while valo is about the game proper, i think Riot is smart to double down, ultimately the teams are gonna have to find an answer because after all they do have all the power and riots willing to let this years NA pro scene go to waste (which im sure they dont want to do) and let the players get shafted (which really sucks for the players) in order to force the OP Teams into holding the burden for a solution. I highly doubt Riot wants to break whatever contract binds the Teams to the spot (may be something similar to owning property) overall the teams proposal was them tipping their hands too far, now I think Riot approved it because the teams hold the power viewership is down and something has to change they know it and this seems to have been the perfect opportunity to change something. The teams should be looked at as the main antagonist and RIot the financially hostaged accomplice
Ludwig needs to tell Mogul Mail that his Stache is ravaging
I've never played League and have no real interest in what's going on. I just wanna say I love hearing Ludwig's takes and love how well-researched and comprehensive his videos are ❤
Same I came to just hear the news despite similarly only playing league like twice, and only to play fiddlesticks, which was a neat coincidence lol
to be honest sports in America is a business. sports in the rest of the world is passion. lets take UK fotball and american NHL ( i know the league kinda).
in the UK most people cheer for their local team and tickets are affordable as well. every team has history spading over 100 years. so when your team goes up a division its a big deal. 4th division teams have more attendance than your regular NHL game. tickets are like 5-50 pounds depending what division/league you play in, so the common man can watch the game live.
while in the US a NHL game costs alteast 80-100 dollars per seat. the team you cheer for are more often than not a team in your state or a team close by ( pick whatever team you want, idc). there are tons of efforts made in merch sales, food, beer, commercials you name it. the model is to make as much money as possible.
the NHL is a closed League, meaning no team goes up or down even if you're dogshit, might get some good players in next years draft and eventually get a good team within a couple of years.
to get a new team in, they have to expand the league and pay a huge amounts of money to create a new team, a stadium, a brand, and then sell it to the masses. no one really have a connection to the team. who would cheer for the seattle Krakens? people who watch hockey already have a team to cheer for. kids didnt grow up idolizing players in the Kraken team.
there is no history so you just have to sell the brand, AKA a business like any other, and when the business fails you cash out. in the UK they start petitions to raise money to save their teams and tries to find a buyer.
when was the last time you heard someone talk about changing owners in American sports vs UK sports? these people lives for football.
how many watch the superbowl every year? too many for it just to be the fans of the team who plays, because no one cares.
As someone who has followed competitive league since around 2013 and has heavily invested time in the scene, Lud did a great job of summarizing everything that is going on right now.
I've always found the DPC system in DOTA eSports so much more interesting than League having the same team over and over again.
I had recently decided to switch to Opera GX, and I'm glad that I did. I wanted to use a browser that didn't take up as many resources as Google Chrome did for the reason being that my computer is rather old, 5 years old in fact. I'll eventually get a new computer, but I need to work with what I have for now. Also Opera GX's interface and background music feature is pretty nice as well.
I don’t understand much of how esports teams (or sports teams overall) work so when ppl say that the “teams” hold too much power in comparison to players who are they referring to?
being bad is not a problem, brazil never made it past the worlds qualifiers and we are always there watching, baiano's live got 150k during loud games
its the "content region"
The thing is you still have brazillians playing for your best team you can see yourself in the team and think (cope hard) 1 day if i grind it can be me NA fans cant their teams are imports and green visa (imports been there so long they dont count as import, cause there is a 2 import cap) if they want to see the best team of foreigners they will watch lck and lpl that is what they do if you go watch T1 games there is so many NA viewership rooting for them.
can’t believe ludwig would copy mogul mail’s mustache
2023 esportsmanlike conduct would go SO hard! (I just started that pod it's mad fun!)
Important to remember that if it weren't for the teams, players would be getting paid $0. Yes, it is true that teams have a lot of power, but the fact that they have a secure spot right now is what incentivises investors to pay out big cheques to the players. I have not played the game or followed LCS for a few years, but I'm pretty sure players back then (when the relegation system was in place) were making significantly under a liveable wage, unless they won big tournaments.
The biggest problem is allowing terrible teams to exist, I'm not sure how teams make money from the league, but it seems to me that the best way to counteract the problem is to incentivise teams to invest more, not to artificially increase their costs and lower the value of their investment. In MLB and other sports, teams make a lot of money off TV deals, ticket sales, concessions and merchandise if they make the playoffs, which is why their players get paid so much.
Only the players will suffer if unions are allowed to cram through regulations that destroy the owners profit line. Owners can just sell the team while its still worth something and cut their losses. Players will be left without a job
I think an off-season open tournament that isn't called "LCS" is a good way to keep contracts with the teams they are obligated to, and open up a separate competition for players.
I see several tournaments in Apex Legends (husband is an ImperialHal fan). The team tournaments are serious and stressful, but when you see players intermingle to create super teams or meme teams... It's so much more fun to watch.
It could happen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Off season tournaments happen in top regions like Korea and China between the main league, secondary and amateure teams (like the FA cup) and if a team makes a run through worlds they usually just hire temporary players from the secondary leagues or promote their acadmey players
Honestly I feel like the LCSPA list of demands was asking a bit much but Riot’s response was way more overboard than the PA’s ask. They should have at least responded in a way that looks to work with the LCSPA in the future
"A bit much."
It was every bit as insulting as Riot's response. Asking for $3m ($300k salary x 10 teams) when those players bring back virtually no return on investment is completely financially irresponsible.
For context, the developmental programs in Europe, China, and Korea get nothing from Riot, run on budgets far less than $300k USD, yet produce far more views (and thus more exposure and ad revenue) and far better players. Many of the best players in the world came from the developmental leagues in China and Korea. The NACL has done basically nothing.
@@brianc620 riot employee spotted
@@heat_death7 Make a counter argument then.
"a bit much" is an understatement. 4 of the 5 asks are outright noes and the 5th is technically already in place with Golden Guardians. The response on Riot's part was warranted imo.
I don't know what they hoped to accomplish with these 5 asks, and I hope to god that it at least got them to the negotiation table. Giving an opportunity for them to come with some more feasible and un-outlandish asks to go forwards.
@@heat_death7 Team manager milk drinker spotted.
Apart from the not up to par performance, a major reason for me not watching the lcs is the picks
It's the same few meta champs and matchups every time.
I want them to implement the "if a champ was picked in the previous game, it's autobanned now" so that it's 5 bans & 5 more after each game.
Was that new Musical Emporium bgm in that ad?
Couple points:
- Riot's got enough money to buy out all the teams and from that point just go on with revenue sharing;
- Player wanting to play together is a conversation for behind closed doors, not in writing: i.e. imagine them all being dogshit but you cant fire them cause they like to play together;
- You could introduce performance metrics which could lead to a buyout;
all depending on the og writing
I think about players wanting to play together, they mean they want a say in the matter. They want to be able to go to a team together and cultivate that kind of play style. For example, Sneaky and Meteos would love to play on a team together because they actually have similar views on how to play the game. Meteos talks often about how he would get stuck on teams where he couldn’t voice his opinion to his teammates because they’d just shut him down. It was much “easier” to shut up and do what his teammates/coach was telling him to do so that they wouldn’t get mad at him. He disliked that if he was on a team with someone who he dislikes or doesn’t know they are kinda forced to be “friends” they are more coworkers and you can’t risk creating drama or friction so you kinda avoid each other and can’t actually deal with things because its causes problems for everyone. Now you’re kicked off the team for having a disagreement.
I can only imagine the amount of shit that happens behind the scenes that we haven’t actually seen.
@@jaylhant while I agree with what you're saying, this isnt something Riot can enforce. This should just be good management from a team side. Make the players happy, respected, valued and heard.
If you don't feel respected, leave and go to a team that does it the right way. Happy employees perform better in the end.
It's good that the players voiced their concerns, but this whole thing (as a corp laywer) screams misrepresentation and unprofessionalism to me, from both sides.
@@georgesj9536 I think the problem is that there is no power for the players to be able to do this and they are kinda just screwed. Their backs are against the wall and there’s no way for them to be able to negotiate and that’s what the LCSPA are trying to create. The orgs have so much power and dominate Riot and the Players.
17:12 Ludwig started spitting bars
Shout-out to the Smite tournament starting today. If you want an example of a really well run pro league the SPL is hard to top
stache lookin good mr mogul
I call cap on the prize pool being set to 300k not being sustainable in the long run. The amount of revenue the game creates through battle passes and skins alone can cover this. This is what happens when a competitive game doesn't put the player first before everything else.
Lud you earned my subscribe from this and all previous videos I have watched of yours. Keep up the good work, and your style and vibe is on point!!:)
Honestly, I couldn't care about LCS anymore. The LCS should have a no imports rule period. I can't cheer on LCS teams when they change their roster every season and there isn't enough home grown players playing at good levels. I want to see players play to win, not play for checks. The teams have too much power and players don't stay on the same teams which makes the team's not feel worthy in the first place. I want to see a single LCS team win Worlds, but since players go for the check instead of trying to get the 5 best players in NA on a single team, there's no point of watching it anymore. Let it die.
I couldn't agree more, every season I watch of LCS becomes more stagnant and boring than if I were to watch the WNBA which is sad. Simply because of the lack of NA players on actual teams makes me not want to watch NA. They should just let it die and revive it.
It's also good to add that the players in NA get drowned out by the import rule which makes the NA players on NA teams not feel the incentive to play to their best when the roster gets constantly changed for each LCS team.
Why is this so fucking based. At the end of the day, people just want to see NA teams win for once but imports being allowed ruins NA talent from being given a chance to shine. It's funny enough that the best NA players in Solo Que don't wanna go pro simply because of how shit the orgs are. If the top 5 players were given the chance to work together and compete in LCS, I would cheer them on.
Lud really testing the MXM loyalty… I want the mustache to exist for the least amount of time possible… but I want MXM to go all the way…….. dilemma
Thank you for covering this it needs exposure I hope moist critical covers it too
2:35 after ad
Even if League isn’t your thing and there’s some nuance that is harder to understand from the outside I wanted to say that I really appreciate Ludwig covering this ❤❤ Esports as a whole benefits.
Nice video
Solid edits gj lud
That was an absolutely legend tier drop of "the children yearn for the mines"
W mustache Ludwig
ludwig looks like a guy that would say "You meddling kids" while he rubs his hands together.
Why not a new relegation system that consists of several conditions including incentives to have less imported players, better/more consistent performance, and allow more rookies in? Maybe something like this:
Any LCS team that ends bottom 2 in two consecutive splits (3 for teams with 1 or less imported players on their team during this period) is subject to a matchup against the NACL with the best record during that period. Winner of a best of 5 series gets the LCS spot while the loser gets the NACL spot. LCS teams with a domestic rookie who participates in at least 60% of matches during a split gives them a “skip”, so if they’re one of the bottom 2 teams during that split, they get an extra chance at avoiding losing their spot.
Woooah the walkout is CRAZY!
Mustache is working lud
I'm not a fan of the opera GX sponsorship. The browser isn't bad, but I've heard a lot of negative things about their company and the data that they collect. I understand edge and chrome aren't much better, but I still think it isn't a great choice
edge chrome and opera are all google's chromium, theyre doing all the same shady data collecting. firefox is literally the only usable browser nowadays that isnt chromium in disguise.
@@N1ckelD1me Duckduckgo end of discussion
Also remember he had limited options as far as sponsers go and honestly opera GX is not near the wordt sponser he c0uld cboose to have.
@@N1ckelD1me so firefox over brave?
@@N1ckelD1me chromium itself doesn’t do any major data collection. A browser like brave or arc can still be privacy focused despite being based in chromium
i love how well spoken and informed these videos are, i enjoy them a lot
The opera ad is so funny bc I'm watching this video picture-in-picture while working lol
LETSGOOOO THE MUSTACHE STAYSSSS LETS GOOOOOO
Yeah! Let's Gooooooo!!!
Make a video about how Leon Edwards had the best physique ever.
Sounds like Riot needs to buy back all the slots for a reasonable negotiated price and then shift to relegated like Val. Issue is, what is a fair price and who will decide? Can riot hold the league hostage to devalue team slots until the teams decide to buckle and sell back the slots? What an odd dynamic and situation they are in, but hopefully there is some loophole to get the system working well.
Also, I think as league ages, it is only natural that they can get insane attendance at worlds but lack viewership at minor events because most people who used to play the game still want to watch their region and the finals, but dont really give a rip about the splits and small potato matches, so the viewership slide may not really be indicative of LCS falling overall (pure speculation here).
I once talked to my friend about opera gx during a short call it crashed 4 times during that call
its so funny watching what is effectively american capitalism play out within an esports league lmfao
He finally gets an OperaGX sponsor, been complaining about chrome almost every MxM game😂
last split was really entertaining tbh
10:47 Peak Ludwig! Amazing reference
We had the relegation system in Brazil’s CBLoL and in the end the orgs were begging for the major/minor league model.
I stopped following closely, but I doubt it fixed anything.
The REAL problem here seems to be having to maintain a second team when the bigger team brings almost nothing home due to the game being dead/dying.
You've said to let you know when a sponsor upsets us, I'm really not a fan of operaGX and it's advertising. Between the bulk advertising, the fact it's free, and is owned by a chinese company(also known as owned by china) means it is definitely siphoning your data
Everyone is siphoning your data at all times and they're all doing it for the same reason, to make more money. Weird to draw a xenophobic line like that when data harvesting is part of every program you use.
Especially silly when the story is about League of Legends, made by Riot who is majority owned by Tencent, a Chinese mega company.
Anyone that wants a book on you already has it lol
Hate to break it to you but being on the internet at all basically guarantees your data us being grabbed by someone anyway.
All browsers are free becaue they take your data to sell and sell adverts that they show you based on the data you've given them that they sell...