WOnder if the team that designed the Gamecock were kind of looking *backward* for inspiration and thought 'MmHm, Tommy Sopwith had a good idea with that Snipe thing'?
The Finnish Air Forces first aerial kill was in December 1st 1939, when a Bristol Bulldog piloted by Staff Sergeant Toivo Uuttu shot down soviet Polikarpov I-16 fighter near Muolaanjärvi in Karelian Isthmus.
On 2 September 1944 a Slovakian František Cyprich in Avia B-534 shoot down hungarian Ju 52/3m during Slovak National Uprising - the last recorded aerial kill by double wing fighter with a fixed landing gear ^_^
The Fins had a knack for turning for want of a better word “loser’ aircraft into winners even making Finnish pilots aces in some of them. Anyway Ed STILL waiting on the Blackburn Firebrand story 🤨😁
In terms of aerial combat between mismatched foes my father used to tell the story of how they watched a Bf-109 trying to shoot down a Piper Cub being used to direct artillery fire. Due to the terrain and the Cub's pilot throwing his aircraft around in his desire not to get stitched by 7.92 and 20mm the 109 never could score. The 109 eventually flew off most likely out of ammunition.
I think I recall a German plane being shot down with a volley of Willy Pete missiles while firing at a Cub. Cub went down onto the deck, the German overshot his target, received the missile voley from point blank range, and crashed. And there was Bazooka Charlie, who used 6 bazookas mounted on his Cub who badly mauled German tank columns until they realized what was going on and fired back.
@@828enigma6 There was a P 40 in the 9th Air Force in 43 involved in the fighting for Sicily that was chasing an Me 109gsomething that was then bounced by 2-3 other Me 109gsomethings that fired on him. He then dodged their fire which then shot down the Me 109gsomething he was trying to shoot down. I can’t find the book that had this but it was in the unit history of the 9th Air Force.
Ed Nash....You are the best on this type video on youtube😆....l am in my 80's and was a fighter pilot back in the late 1960's and 1970's....Thanks so much👍👀....From USA
This reminds me of the controversy over someof Pierre Closterman (RAF French ace) victories, which are generally put in doubt and sometimes simply rejected as invalid grounded planes (stationary objects) destroryed. And I agree.
I like these oft neglected between-the-wars types, especially when equipped with floats. Big fan of the Fairey IIIF and Flycatcher. Stumbled across a pic of a Hawker Osprey seaplane looping the loop recently. Astonishing! Thanks for chasing up these more esoteric aeroplanes and thanks for posting. Cheers.
As long as nobody brings up any of the shouty people with funny moustaches directly, there's a pretty good chance. If anybody endorses one of them, all is lost, Ed can't afford enough help to moderate those comments.
Regardless of the oldest title, more coverage of plane types during those interwar years and especially for the RAF would be of great interest to me. Given the mention of that rapid progress and short service lives for many types, seeing what was carried over into "peacetime" from WW1 through to at least the mid-30s would be sort of fun.
Certainly Bristol Fighters and de Havilland 4's were very long lived - the latter in America for mail plane service. Same with Curtis 'jennies' and de Havilland 9A's which seemingly went on for ever.
I once asked Mark Felton (yes that Mark Felton) if he could recommend any books on British biplane fighters from the 20s and 30s. Unfortunately, he could not. What about you Ed, any recommendations?
@@shauny2285 I'd recommend Flying Colours compiled by William Green and Gordon Swanborough. Released by Salamander Books and distributed by Lansdowne Press. Printed in 1981. It starts with the SPAD 7 from 1916 and ends with the Panavia Tornado from 1981. This period pretty much covers all of the trials and tribulations of the post-World War Two boom period in military aviation history throughout the years 1947-1983 as far as a complete record of developmental achievement and technical prowess across the globe is concerned. But in regards to the interwar period concerning British aviation in the 1920s and 1930s I find it a little scant but it does cover what would be considered essential iconic planes in keeping with the economic constraints of the period. It doesn't quite make it to the True Lies era either with the Harrier Jump Jet but close enough even though these planes served in the Falklands conflict of 1982, however, due to constraints and technical specifications I assume this information would have been considered classified at the time. All these years I've had this book in 'The Air Racers' dust jacket which by the sounds of it would be a great side publication on this subject worth pursuing by Terry Gwynn-Jones a Commonwealth fighter pilot and jet aircraft flying instructor. Although it may not be military-orientated to the degree one may require however this particular book printed by Time-Life and once again distributed by Landsdowne Press covers the topic of air racing from 1909 - 1936 and most importantly the duration of the World War One era. I suspect even slightly touching on the development of the commercial civilian international aviation travel market in the mid to late 1930s. This book claims to contain many illustrations which have not been printed before. Around 190 in fact.
@@la_old_salt2241 I'm not sure about Anton but I typically start with a plastic model kit. Oftentimes though I do have to do a lot of modification or add detail to fit the subject matter at hand which involves scratch building. In this subject's case I'd start with the Broplan vacuform Gamecock II which is basically the only show in town for the Gamecock II in my preferred scale of 1/72. Although Broplan kits are excellent as far as vacuform model kits go it would still require an extensive amount of scratch building for satisfactory joints in the kit parts and for the level of detail I require of my collection. Model kit building is indeed cathartic. Stories like the one told by Mark, things you've researched about the machine itself, it's designers, it's pilots, the scene of action (if applicable,) what must've been felt by the pilots (or those effected if applicable,) etc. run through your mind. All while you carefully assemble, detail and paint the miniature to represent the aircraft in history you're seeking to reproduce it induces a near trance like state. To borrow the context of a quote from a very old movie; It's an elegant hobby from a more civilized age.
To be more accurate, I'm interested in a flying 'free-flight' or RC version. ..and 'Yes'--scratchbuilding is the utmost high of therapy/escape for me! 3-views...photos...the models of others; then plug away.
We generally regard the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact signed a week before WWII started in Europe as the diplomatic agreement that lead directly to the start of hostilities in Europe. The pact allowed Germany to invade western and central Poland with central Europe to be in the German sphere of influence and allowed the Soviets to take Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania eastern Poland and Moldova region of Romania. Therefore the Winter War is most definitely part of WWII.
Absolutely, just as the Soviet Union overrunning the Baltics, Eastern Poland, and the other eastern European countries they attacked before Operation Barbarossa is part of WW II, even though there was no German military there.
Unless you live in today's Russia where there is a hole in the history books between August 1939 and June 1941 in the chapters involving Germany. The Great Patriotic War started 22 June, 1941
More interested in the procession of Gloster & British Nieuport fighters, like the Nightjar & Mars, w/ a large Japanese order as well. These pugnacious little monsters were in competition w/ quite a few other classy fighters (AW Siskin & Fairey Flycatcher, at least) in the golden era of the 1920s 💜.
Another forgotten Fighter that saw action in WWII was the Boeing P-26 Peashooter, not quite as old, but certainly obsolete. The 6th Pursuit Squadron of the Philippine Air Force was in action from 8 to 24 December, flying their P-26s in combat. On 10 December Captain Jesus Villamor led a flight to attack a bombing raid consisting of Zero Fighters and Mitsubishi G-3M bombers over Luzon. In the ensuing combat, four enemy aircraft were destroyed, including two Zeroes by Captain Villamor. The squadron was grounded on December 24th when they were forced to burn their remaining P-26s to prevent capture.
Suitably inspired I dropped in to the The Jet Age museum at Gloucester and can thoroughly recommend it. As well as the Gamecock they have a selection of early jet aircraft.
A small point, but a historically interesting carry through: The picture you have of the Bristol Bulldog is a Mk I (two built). Notice the short coupling (short distance between wing and tail surface). The Bulldog Mk I also had a spin recovery problem (ala Gamecock), and the Bulldog Mk II was developed with a fuselage extension to combat the spin problem. The Mk II also had a small vertical fin. And...you guessed it...the Mk IIa was developed with a larger fin to help with the spin recovery quest. One of your excellent clips on the Bulldog would be nice.
I consider myself pretty well informed about the RAF and the aircraft it flew and flies now. But...I had no idea about this type. Terrific video, informative and great use of archive photos.
I agree. But then we do we include the Sino-Japanese War? That was a significant part of WWII, but started years before. What about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia? That was even earlier, and the conflict in East Africa continued into WWII. What about the Spanish Civil War? 3 of the major European powers were directly involved. So how does one define the parameters for naming a specific war, and including or excluding conflicts which take place concurrently and affect the outcome?
@@richardpentelow655 Yes, WWI was fully resolved. In 1945. Or in 1991, if you want to go by the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Or in 2001 if want to go by the end of the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the Kosovo conflict, since Yugoslavia was an artificial nation formed of several ethnicities from smaller traditional nations, by the Versailles Treaty. Or it hasn't been resolved yet, since Brexit is still ongoing.
@@mikearmstrong8483 officially the Pacific War and the War in Europe were separate affairs (USSR for example was not a participant in the Pacific War until the last few weeks, even interning American aircrews that landed in Soviet territory), so the Sino-Japanese War was part of the Pacific part of WWII.
Another excellent video about obscure aircraft and history. Of course, now that Ed has mentioned it we are all awaiting his take on the Franco-Thai War and the old airplanes used then!
I know the 9th Air Force counted planes destroyed on the ground as “kills” during WWII while the 8th Air Force didn’t. In fact the 9th was one of the few USAAF units to have “strafing aces” or pilots who had five or more “kills” on aircraft on the ground.
glad you mentioned lt Etienne dufossez's kill on the bf 109, he died later the same day, shot down by another 109 and his parachute failed to deploy. however the Belgian fairey foxes (MkV and onwards) had little to do with the original 1928 design, they were almost 100 mph faster with their hispano engines and three bladed props! still generally inferior to a BF109 ofcourse
I did my basic training with the Royal Artillery at Gamecock Barracks near Nuneaton, which was a repurposed ex RN air station. In those pre-internet days I thought that the RA facility was named after one of the FAA aircraft based there, but I guess not, if the Gamecock didn't get adopted by the FAA.
I work in the Finnish Aviation Museum, we have a fuselage on display. It crashed in an accident during the Winter War. Considering Antony Beevor counts WW II to start from the battle of Khalkhin Gol I think we can say Winter War is part of WW II. I mean here it isn't even debated.
I would certainly describe The Winter War as a part of WW2. I would not, however; call this a kill in air combat. The DB3 was not brought down by the Gamecock's; nor was it destroyed on the ground. I would describe this as a capture which, going by Finlands meagre resources at this time; I would imagine was of more value than the kill.
In the RAF during WW2 did they count destroyed aircraft on the ground as a kill? it is just as important as those aircraft will never fly again. Not in this instance though, as the Finns were able to absorbed the bomber into their own airforce .
As a related subject, what's the oldest design that saw service in WWII? I'd argue the Avro 504, which was pre-WWI, being 1913, and although officially retired, some civilian ones were impressed into service for training. The DH.9 of 1917 was apparently still used by the SAAF until 1942, whilst the Westland Wapiti is half a DH.9, and was used until late war.
While I personally don't regard strafing kills quite as canon compared to air-to-air kills I think the final say must go to the air force in question. If the Finns don't class it as a kill then it isn't really a kill.
@@mattheweagles5123 Perhaps, but most air forces did not acknowledge aircraft destroyed on the ground as 'kills' - ergo it isn't a kill in the proper sense. From a personal stand point I don't regard a strafing kill as being the same as an air-to-air kill but it is a kill but AFAIK only the US 9th AF every acknowledged them as such and the Finns certainly didn't.
Great vid once again! Always look forward to these, really make my day! Is the fairy fulmar on your list at all? Like to see a few fleet air arms aircraft 👍🏻
It may have a lot of qualifiers attached, but I don't know enough detailed aviation history from the time to propose a different contender for the title. Whether it counts as the champ or not, it's still a remarkable story. It's always interesting to hear about the last-ditch, under-equipped, underdog desperation forces.
I've never heard of this aircraft, but I'm digging the humpback shape to it. It's a good looking plane and if it was safer, and available, I wouldn't mind having one👍
Thanks Mark for another excellent piece in a very little covered topic. And yes, the destruction of that Soviet parked bomber should be considered a kill. First, it was an enemy asset taken out during a part of the conflict. And second, if anybody insists that the bomber wasn't actually active at the time of its destruction, then that logic would have us believe that the Israeli air force achieved nothing in the 1967 Six Day War when it obliterated the Arab air assets on the ground in their magnificent pre-emptive strike. An asset destroyed is an asset denied to the enemy at whatever time perhaps not though if it was still on the production line!
Interesting sidenote, the sales to Japan were the reason they changed the name from Gloucestershire Aircraft Company after having the name vebally mangled too many times.
Half of the Dutch airforce consisted of obsolete biplanes. I know that there were three Ju52's that run out of fuel made an emergency landing at the beach near Katwijk and were strafed and set on fire by two biplane's. I have to look in the books if I can find more information of the age of the biplanes.
Douglas Bader didn't want his Gamecock replaced by the Bulldog (the start of a trend with DB ). As for the Kill ? I'd give those Finns full marks and a medal just for taking off that day, the rest is as they say history.
Douglas Bader's accident was caused by a classic mistake in aviation: he did what would have been perfectly safe in the Gamecock he had been used to, and didn't allow for the fact that the Bulldog lost height faster in a roll. He started the roll close to the ground, and a wingtip brushed the ground as he rolled towards level. Another example where the same part causes most car accidents: the nut behind the wheel.
More appropriate to say he shot it up rather than shot it down and the fact that the Finns used it, it was more of a capture. Good story, good question.
Each time you show a weird, unpopular plane, that had promises but a bad timing, a dozen or so of those manage to end up in the Finish Air Force (or an obscur Polish foreign squadron) and somehow shot down Soviet planes. Incredible. You should do a special episode on the Finish Air Force during the Winter War. Absolutely ludicrous
I’d be interested in the oldest fighter design *in service* during WW2, to which the Gamecocks definitely have a solid claim. Even if this incident wasn’t a “kill”, definitely counts as “used in combat”, which is more than some more advanced aircraft of the wartime period, or the interwar for that matter can say. Interwar aircraft development is fascinating, and it’s always interesting what uses the designs saw during the war or in the many conflicts of the supposed peacetime.
it's really a marvel how fast aircraft technology progressed back then. think of it this way, this aircraft was 20 years old the year the first operational jet fighter took to the skies. most fighters in modern US inventory are from designs twice that age. it's wild to think just how insanely fast the technology advanced. the average F-15 is 44 years old. in 1945, this airplane wasn't even that old, and we were already kissing the sound barrier, if not breaking it if you are to believe Me-262 pilot Hans Guido Mutke.
I've heard of the Gamecock from reading the biog of Douglas Bader many years ago. Think that is the plane he crashed (barrel roll too close to the ground) and lost his legs as a resut. As for oldest plane in WW2 to get a kill, didn't the Chinese have older bi-planes that shot down Japanese aircraft? Something like a 1 to 55 ratio though?
Bader certainly flew the Gamecock, particularly when he was involved with the RAF display team and seems to have liked it. By the time of the accident though his squadron had just re-equipped with the Bristol Bulldog and it was one of those he was flying when he crashed. The fact that he didn`t have as much experience on the Bulldog may have been a contributory factor in the accident.
Thanks for this, too, as an example of aircraft design in the interwar years (I mostly focus on the U.S. context, which gave us, e.g., the Boeing monoplane fighters featured in "King Kong").
I also thought of the Gloster Gladiator but then I remembered its entering service date was 1937. Right on the cusp of the transition to monoplanes. I think Gloster's claim to fame is the fact that it went from biplane to jet, the Gloster Meteor, without a propeller drive monoplane in between.
@@bigblue6917 : A monoplane that entered service. Check up on the The Gloster F.5/34 - Ed's also done a vid on it. And there's also the Gloster F.9/37 twin-engined heavy fighter.
Well until Hurricanes arrived from Egypt anyway. The Gladiator also saw a lot of service in the early years of WWII in France, Norway, North Africa and there was still a Gadiator squadron operational during the Battle of Britain. Several pilots became aces while flying it.
What about the P 26? The Philippines air force had several of these and did get some air kills in the early stages of the war. It was about as obsolete as you could get and still managed to serve their owners well,.....for a while anyway.
Winter War most definitely does count as part of WW2. The direct reason why this war took place at all was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which also was the direct reason for Hitler daring to go ahead and finally attack Poland too. Not to mention that the Western Allies were fully prepared to use it as a pretext for their planned invasion of Norway and with the ultimate goal of securing the iron ore mines in the north of Sweden, thus denying that supply to Germany. It was also the direct reason why Finland took part in WW2 later on too, and on a much more involved level. I would count the Franco-Thai war as part of WW2 for similar reasons - the Japanese were heavily involved diplomatically and the Thais used the opportunity of France having been overrun in Europe, they would have never ever contemplated such a campaign against a full-standing colonial France. I would count most peripheral conflicts during WW2 as part of it because usually they would not have taken place at all if it wasn't for WW2. If, say, there was a border war between two countries in South America during WW2 and neither party had any affiliation or connection to any of the big players (or were even "on the same side") then I would not count that as part of WW2. As for the 'oldest fighter to get a kill in WW2'... No, sorry. Ground kills do not count for any air force that I know of. Otherwise we would have many more aces than we have now, and it would be ridiculous if someone who got lucky one time and strafed a row of 20 aircraft on the ground would be counted the same as someone who killed 20 different aircraft in air combat over hundreds of sorties. A Sopwith Camel can ground kill an F-35, given a free hand. If it's any consolation though, Bristol Bulldogs in Finnish service did shoot down an I-16 and and SB-2 bomber during the Winter War, even though both were vastly more modern compared to the Bulldog, and even though the Finns considered the Bulldog their most obsolete fighter aircraft still in service, barely worth keeping operational, and the Bulldog pilots considered themselves a suicide squad.
I would probably count the status of capturing a landed aircraft as a case of sky-piracy if that works, rather than a traditional kill. However I do know that Finland also used Bristol Bulldogs and one of those did properly down an I-16 in the Winter War
Yes, the Winter War definitely qualifies as it was fought in Europe by the two countries involved in starting WW2 after signing the Nazi - Soviet pact and invading Poland etc.
Finns seem to be a dab hand at polishing turds as they're skill with the much maligned Brewster Buffalo would attest. As for the Gamecock as I understand it I believe it was the mount of Douglas Bader before he converted to Bristol Bulldogs in which he had his unfortunate accident.
It's one thing to get caught on the ground in a bomber and get taken out by an antiquated biplane fighter, but fancy being the German pilot in a state-of-the-art Bf-109 getting taken out by a Belgian pilot in a Fairey Fox. That's like being in an F-22 and getting taken out by a Mig-21. If he survived it I imagine he would have been relegated to doing Ju-52 transport runs to Poland and Russia.
Great video as usual. Ye, doesn't count unfortunately because the targets were on the ground. The winter war certainly does count as part of WW2. The Russian invasion of Poland counts 1939, but grounded aircraft don't count.
my father told me shortly before he passed away that he regularly worked on an AVRO 504 N in Egypt in 1947 (CO's hack)in RAF service the airfields name I.ve forgotten but it had 3 small Pyramids on the perimeter, so should be easily identifiable ! as the 504 was designed about late 1911 the gamecock was probably not the oldest in 'active' service :)
I think it counts as a kill and as part of world war 2. Smaller European conflicts in the build were essentially testbeds for weapons, armies and seizing territory. Great vid, love the channel, its great to see your subscribers have shot up.
Ground kills are counted separately from aerial victories and don’t count to being an ace. Pappy Boyington counted two ground kills in his tally from his time with the AVG. The USMC accepted them, but later counts have removed them as they were verified as ground kills during an AVG squadron attack of a Japanese airfield
Oldest plane involved in a air to air kill I know of were some obsolete P-26s operated by the Phlllppines air force that knocked off a few Japanese aircraft in 1941 the P-26 first flew in 1931 .
At 1:20 you say that the "Gloster Gamecock" was the last British fighter to be made of wood. Are you forgetting the"De Havilland Mosquito" fighter variant?
Aircraft on the ground are not a kill. The kill must be in the air. Richard Bong took out a landing Japanese aircraft during a mission. His superiors wanted to give hime credit saying the aircraft was bouncing off the ground during landing and was thus airborne. Bong stated the airplane was smoothly rolling down the runway, no bounce. He was not credited with a kill. His wartime tally stands at 40, not 41.
A fairly simple way to look at this is not to use the term ‘kill’ but rather ‘victory’. So then you can have ‘aerial victories’ and say, ‘strafing victories’ or simply ground targets destroyed/damaged.
I wonder which was the oldest aircraft to shoot down another aircraft while both were in the air in WWII. I would guess the Boeing P-26 Peashooter in either Philippine or China service. Also the start of the Spanish Civil War in 1936 is considered by some historians as the beginning of WWII.
Ed, I love the discussion that you bring up. There were certainly a lot of "minor wars" being fought right before WW II, although I do not think the combatants or the local civilians caught up in them would think of them as minor. These conflicts certainly did play a role in shaping the armies that subsequently fought in WW II by testing their material and military doctrine. In the future we may see the same debate going on a hundred years from now about the run up to WW III as we see an increase in small wars and "border crises" going on now. Hopefully we as a species are smarter than our ancestors were back in the 1930's although looking at who is in charge now I do not see a lot of intelligence nor fortitude of spirit. I bring this up because of your video the other day of Britain arming the Ukrainians. Keep up the great work.
I don't know about foreign airforces but the allied airforces at that time did not count aircraft destroyed on the ground as 'Kills'. The Gamecock and the Finish incident you describe happened at a time when many pre WW wars were getting started, Germany fought over Spain using 1930's Heinkel fighter bombers which did take part in combat also the Japanese invasion of China. Wasn't it the Camecock that cost Douglas Bader his legs?
As a common visitor to Malta, they only had 6 Gloster Gladiators biplanes at the beginning of the war, flying in threes, as the most at any time, till more modern planes arrived. And the Swastica on the Finnish planes, had nothing to do with Germany and Nazism, though the Finns joined Germany at one time, in their attack on Russia!
@@tessalyyvuo1667 Danish Carlsberg Brevery also had a Nordic svastica on its beers. It became removed and replaced as a first when Germany invaded Denmark!!!
First 'actual' aerial victory in Winter War and for FAF too was gained by Bristol Bulldog, 1. December 1939 11:45 am staffsergeant Toivo Uuttu and his wingman got to doffight with six Polikarpov I-16s. Stf, srgt Uuttu managed to hit one his opponents so that Rata left battle smoking. It was later reported to have made forced landing,,, and - it is said that the russian pilot would have been no one else but an upcoming ace and 'Hero of Soviet Union', Aleksandr Ivanovitsh Pokryshkin....
The vintage of the design of the aircraft is certainly to be considered as the vintage of the individual aircraft involved in the incident unless the design was sufficiently enough modified as to no longer be classifiable as the same aircraft. If this is not the case then it can be classified as a mid 1920's design. The matter of whether or not this can be classified as an air combat kill depends quite a bit on the way the nation in question saw such matters at the time. Without question it was a combat ground attack kill, depriving the enemy of a valuable aircraft and crewmembers, conducted by an aircraft that was well and truly obsolete by that time. It took place during the period of World War Two and involved at least one nation that became one of the primary participants in that war, and can be seen as a WW2 related aggressive invasive land grab that was part of the preliminary manouvering to that war, much like the Nazi invasion of Poland. Interesting that in this post war period Russia still has that land it violently siezed and still has not returned it. Can WW2 truly be said to be over then?
The paperwork says it ended on May 8th 45 and while there was some fighting that continued in isolated areas for a month or so afterwards the land grab by the Soviets fits more into the Cold War as it was part of their ignoring the expectations of the Western Allies.
The incident described here by Ed Nash here can't be consider a kill. As for the two Russian bombers strafed one got away & another captured by the Finn's. Neither were destroyed in the incident. As others have noted most countries only considered aerial victories (ie: aircraft shot down or in rare incidents brought down by other means such as a collision) as kills. Also the start of WW2 really varies from country to country (different countries got involved at different times) as mentioned. Can conflicts during 30's between Japan & China be considered (know bi-planes were involved on both sides in that conflict)? Regardless very much enjoy the presentations here on Ed Nash's Military Matters, always interesting stuff!
The only objection I would have is regarding the fact the russian aircraft was destroyed on the ground. Otherwise, countless "kills", including by attack aircrafts or bombers, would/could have been recorded. As a Belgian, I'm of course interested by the story of the Fairey Fox allegedly downing a BF109, certainly a very rare achievement for a biplane. If you have additional infos regarding it, I'd be delighted! Thanks a lot for your remarkable channel, full of rare documents, infos and stories, and so beautifully narrated that I never have to turn the subtitles on! ;-)
If the aircarft was on the ground than it is just a ground attack and not an air kill. IAF air kills on the six days war, were only counted when the aircaraft was flying.
It was certainly a 'victory' over the DB3 and its crew. That fact it wasn't destroyed but was captured and reused is actually more valuable than an air-to-air 'kill'. Winter war defintely part of WW2.
Henry Folland, of the Gnat. Wooden biplanes to jets, hell of a designer.
It makes you wonder what R J Mitchell would have come up with after all Sidney Camm came up with some pretty good jet designs 👍
WOnder if the team that designed the Gamecock were kind of looking *backward* for inspiration and thought 'MmHm, Tommy Sopwith had a good idea with that Snipe thing'?
Teddy Petter was the designer of the Gnat, but it was Folland's company.
@@michaelleslie2913 Mitchell started of as an apprentice railway engineer!
Roy Chadwick designed both the Lancaster and the Vulcan and only like a decade later, or even less.
I swear you could give the Finns a cardboard box with wings and a gun, and they'd score kills with it.
or a doghouse. XD
@@13stalag13 I assume flown by a Lapphund and not a moonlighting beagle?
@@masteronone2079 The moonlighting beagle would have to be the night fighter.
The Finns gave the Russians hell in that little war.
@@la_old_salt2241 ~ Finns were punching above their weight class taking on the Red Army.
The Finnish Air Forces first aerial kill was in December 1st 1939, when a Bristol Bulldog piloted by Staff Sergeant Toivo Uuttu shot down soviet Polikarpov I-16 fighter near Muolaanjärvi in Karelian Isthmus.
On 2 September 1944 a Slovakian František Cyprich in Avia B-534 shoot down hungarian Ju 52/3m during Slovak National Uprising - the last recorded aerial kill by double wing fighter with a fixed landing gear ^_^
The Fins had a knack for turning for want of a better word “loser’ aircraft into winners even making Finnish pilots aces in some of them. Anyway Ed STILL waiting on the Blackburn Firebrand story 🤨😁
Everytime I sit down to look at it, I find something else and go "ooooo...!"
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Firebrand, oooooo, why am I not surprised…no really NOT surprised 🤣
@Andreas Glad I also remember the TV show “How Huge is my Rudder “ … oh no that’s a firebrand not a TV show
@@xgford94 (Said) remember the TV show “How Huge is my Rudder “
Oh Gawd. That made me think of Dianne Abbott.
Quick! Mind Bleach! Help! Its traumatic!
Yup, Brewster Buffalo.
In terms of aerial combat between mismatched foes my father used to tell the story of how they watched a Bf-109 trying to shoot down a Piper Cub being used to direct artillery fire. Due to the terrain and the Cub's pilot throwing his aircraft around in his desire not to get stitched by 7.92 and 20mm the 109 never could score. The 109 eventually flew off most likely out of ammunition.
There are also stories (fact?) of at least one Storch evading P-51Ds flying in the ruins of Berlin in 45.
I think I recall a German plane being shot down with a volley of Willy Pete missiles while firing at a Cub. Cub went down onto the deck, the German overshot his target, received the missile voley from point blank range, and crashed. And there was Bazooka Charlie, who used 6 bazookas mounted on his Cub who badly mauled German tank columns until they realized what was going on and fired back.
@@828enigma6
There was a P 40 in the 9th Air Force in 43 involved in the fighting for Sicily that was chasing an Me 109gsomething that was then bounced by 2-3 other Me 109gsomethings that fired on him. He then dodged their fire which then shot down the Me 109gsomething he was trying to shoot down. I can’t find the book that had this but it was in the unit history of the 9th Air Force.
A Piper Cub is also recorded as scoring an aerial victory against a Fieseler Storch (including capturing the crew).
Ed Nash....You are the best on this type video on youtube😆....l am in my 80's and was a fighter pilot back in the late 1960's and 1970's....Thanks so much👍👀....From USA
Not sure I would consider this a kill but it’s impressive that aircraft of that age were able to remain somewhat effective during the Winter War
counts. if you take a plane from the enemy by using such an old kite, it counts 🤗
This reminds me of the controversy over someof Pierre Closterman (RAF French ace) victories, which are generally put in doubt and sometimes simply rejected as invalid grounded planes (stationary objects) destroryed. And I agree.
@@Siddich I’ll clarify: it doesn’t count as an aerial kill
@@mustang5132 What did Gamecock ever do to you!?!?!? Leave Gamecock alone!!!! :'-(
@@Siddich No. It's not like it's a maneuver kill, it was stationary on the ground. Now if they had shot down the one that had taken off...
I like these oft neglected between-the-wars types, especially when equipped with floats. Big fan of the Fairey IIIF and Flycatcher. Stumbled across a pic of a Hawker Osprey seaplane looping the loop recently. Astonishing! Thanks for chasing up these more esoteric aeroplanes and thanks for posting. Cheers.
A polite discussion regarding WWII? Now that's optimistic.
“Gentlemen! You can’t fight here! This is the war room!” -President Merkin Muffley
As long as nobody brings up any of the shouty people with funny moustaches directly, there's a pretty good chance. If anybody endorses one of them, all is lost, Ed can't afford enough help to moderate those comments.
VERY optimistic (with fingers crossed!!) 🤞🤞 🤣👍
@@johnladuke6475 no mustachio endorsements? But that was number 4891 on my to do list!
Regardless of the oldest title, more coverage of plane types during those interwar years and especially for the RAF would be of great interest to me. Given the mention of that rapid progress and short service lives for many types, seeing what was carried over into "peacetime" from WW1 through to at least the mid-30s would be sort of fun.
I agree a series on the interwar Biplanes would be very much appreciated
Certainly Bristol Fighters and de Havilland 4's were very long lived - the latter in America for mail plane service. Same with Curtis 'jennies' and de Havilland 9A's which seemingly went on for ever.
I've never heard of the Gamecock, well done Ed you've excelled again in feeding us with facts on little known aircraft
I once asked Mark Felton (yes that Mark Felton) if he could recommend any books on British biplane fighters from the 20s and 30s. Unfortunately, he could not. What about you Ed, any recommendations?
@@shauny2285 I'd recommend Flying Colours compiled by William Green and Gordon Swanborough. Released by Salamander Books and distributed by Lansdowne Press. Printed in 1981. It starts with the SPAD 7 from 1916 and ends with the Panavia Tornado from 1981. This period pretty much covers all of the trials and tribulations of the post-World War Two boom period in military aviation history throughout the years 1947-1983 as far as a complete record of developmental achievement and technical prowess across the globe is concerned. But in regards to the interwar period concerning British aviation in the 1920s and 1930s I find it a little scant but it does cover what would be considered essential iconic planes in keeping with the economic constraints of the period. It doesn't quite make it to the True Lies era either with the Harrier Jump Jet but close enough even though these planes served in the Falklands conflict of 1982, however, due to constraints and technical specifications I assume this information would have been considered classified at the time. All these years I've had this book in 'The Air Racers' dust jacket which by the sounds of it would be a great side publication on this subject worth pursuing by Terry Gwynn-Jones a Commonwealth fighter pilot and jet aircraft flying instructor. Although it may not be military-orientated to the degree one may require however this particular book printed by Time-Life and once again distributed by Landsdowne Press covers the topic of air racing from 1909 - 1936 and most importantly the duration of the World War One era. I suspect even slightly touching on the development of the commercial civilian international aviation travel market in the mid to late 1930s. This book claims to contain many illustrations which have not been printed before. Around 190 in fact.
You've given me a new respect & fascination with this design. Its on my list of 'Scale-Models-to-Build' now.
Another fellow modeler with a growing list of build topics, eh? Good to know I'm not alone! lol
Wow, you guys scratch build your models? I'm impressed. But I can see it being cathartic.
@@la_old_salt2241 I'm not sure about Anton but I typically start with a plastic model kit. Oftentimes though I do have to do a lot of modification or add detail to fit the subject matter at hand which involves scratch building.
In this subject's case I'd start with the Broplan vacuform Gamecock II which is basically the only show in town for the Gamecock II in my preferred scale of 1/72. Although Broplan kits are excellent as far as vacuform model kits go it would still require an extensive amount of scratch building for satisfactory joints in the kit parts and for the level of detail I require of my collection.
Model kit building is indeed cathartic. Stories like the one told by Mark, things you've researched about the machine itself, it's designers, it's pilots, the scene of action (if applicable,) what must've been felt by the pilots (or those effected if applicable,) etc. run through your mind. All while you carefully assemble, detail and paint the miniature to represent the aircraft in history you're seeking to reproduce it induces a near trance like state.
To borrow the context of a quote from a very old movie; It's an elegant hobby from a more civilized age.
To be more accurate, I'm interested in a flying 'free-flight' or RC version.
..and 'Yes'--scratchbuilding is the utmost high of therapy/escape for me! 3-views...photos...the models of others; then plug away.
We generally regard the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact signed a week before WWII started in Europe as the diplomatic agreement that lead directly to the start of hostilities in Europe. The pact allowed Germany to invade western and central Poland with central Europe to be in the German sphere of influence and allowed the Soviets to take Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania eastern Poland and Moldova region of Romania. Therefore the Winter War is most definitely part of WWII.
Absolutely, just as the Soviet Union overrunning the Baltics, Eastern Poland, and the other eastern European countries they attacked before Operation Barbarossa is part of WW II, even though there was no German military there.
Unless you live in today's Russia where there is a hole in the history books between August 1939 and June 1941 in the chapters involving Germany. The Great Patriotic War started 22 June, 1941
Love the videos Ed, keep em coming!
Thanks for covering this, only seen pictures of this aircraft previously. Great work.
0:44 - "Unreliable Jaguar engine" - some things never change.
More interested in the procession of Gloster & British Nieuport fighters, like the Nightjar & Mars, w/ a large Japanese order as well. These pugnacious little monsters were in competition w/ quite a few other classy fighters (AW Siskin & Fairey Flycatcher, at least) in the golden era of the 1920s 💜.
Another forgotten Fighter that saw action in WWII was the Boeing P-26 Peashooter, not quite as old, but certainly obsolete. The 6th Pursuit Squadron of the Philippine Air Force was in action from 8 to 24 December, flying their P-26s in combat. On 10 December Captain Jesus Villamor led a flight to attack a bombing raid consisting of Zero Fighters and Mitsubishi G-3M bombers over Luzon. In the ensuing combat, four enemy aircraft were destroyed, including two Zeroes by Captain Villamor. The squadron was grounded on December 24th when they were forced to burn their remaining P-26s to prevent capture.
Suitably inspired I dropped in to the The Jet Age museum at Gloucester and can thoroughly recommend it. As well as the Gamecock they have a selection of early jet aircraft.
A small point, but a historically interesting carry through: The picture you have of the Bristol Bulldog is a Mk I (two built). Notice the short coupling (short distance between wing and tail surface). The Bulldog Mk I also had a spin recovery problem (ala Gamecock), and the Bulldog Mk II was developed with a fuselage extension to combat the spin problem. The Mk II also had a small vertical fin. And...you guessed it...the Mk IIa was developed with a larger fin to help with the spin recovery quest. One of your excellent clips on the Bulldog would be nice.
Weer een mooie bijdrage Ed, ik geniet van de bijzondere verhalen! Groet uit Groningen, Iwan
You can never go wrong with Carry On movies !!
Infamy! Infamy! They've all got in in f'me!
Hahaha, yep
Another fascinating history!
I consider myself pretty well informed about the RAF and the aircraft it flew and flies now. But...I had no idea about this type. Terrific video, informative and great use of archive photos.
Cracking wee vid! I so look forward to your videos! Very interesting and full of juicy info and pics!! Great job!!! Love it!!!
The Winter war should definitely be considered part of WW2 for no other reason than its huge impact on the course of the war in Europe.
I agree.
But then we do we include the Sino-Japanese War? That was a significant part of WWII, but started years before.
What about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia? That was even earlier, and the conflict in East Africa continued into WWII.
What about the Spanish Civil War? 3 of the major European powers were directly involved.
So how does one define the parameters for naming a specific war, and including or excluding conflicts which take place concurrently and affect the outcome?
And WWI, was it ever fully resolved? But then……..
@@richardpentelow655
Yes, WWI was fully resolved.
In 1945.
Or in 1991, if you want to go by the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Or in 2001 if want to go by the end of the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the Kosovo conflict, since Yugoslavia was an artificial nation formed of several ethnicities from smaller traditional nations, by the Versailles Treaty.
Or it hasn't been resolved yet, since Brexit is still ongoing.
@@mikearmstrong8483 officially the Pacific War and the War in Europe were separate affairs (USSR for example was not a participant in the Pacific War until the last few weeks, even interning American aircrews that landed in Soviet territory), so the Sino-Japanese War was part of the Pacific part of WWII.
Thank for the heads up I've got an encyclopedia and it never got a mention interesting
Another excellent video about obscure aircraft and history. Of course, now that Ed has mentioned it we are all awaiting his take on the Franco-Thai War and the old airplanes used then!
Really interesting! The sound left a bit to be desired, but the content was excellent. More, please!
I know the 9th Air Force counted planes destroyed on the ground as “kills” during WWII while the 8th Air Force didn’t. In fact the 9th was one of the few USAAF units to have “strafing aces” or pilots who had five or more “kills” on aircraft on the ground.
You've got this backwards, the 8th AF credited ground or strafing "kills", the 9th AF did not.
glad you mentioned lt Etienne dufossez's kill on the bf 109, he died later the same day, shot down by another 109 and his parachute failed to deploy. however the Belgian fairey foxes (MkV and onwards) had little to do with the original 1928 design, they were almost 100 mph faster with their hispano engines and three bladed props! still generally inferior to a BF109 ofcourse
I did my basic training with the Royal Artillery at Gamecock Barracks near Nuneaton, which was a repurposed ex RN air station. In those pre-internet days I thought that the RA facility was named after one of the FAA aircraft based there, but I guess not, if the Gamecock didn't get adopted by the FAA.
Thks Ed. I now know more than I did before this video.
*Great video as usual !!! Informative 👍👍👍 Liked*
I work in the Finnish Aviation Museum, we have a fuselage on display. It crashed in an accident during the Winter War.
Considering Antony Beevor counts WW II to start from the battle of Khalkhin Gol I think we can say Winter War is part of WW II. I mean here it isn't even debated.
I would certainly describe The Winter War as a part of WW2.
I would not, however; call this a kill in air combat. The DB3 was not brought down by the Gamecock's; nor was it destroyed on the ground.
I would describe this as a capture which, going by Finlands meagre resources at this time; I would imagine was of more value than the kill.
In the RAF during WW2 did they count destroyed aircraft on the ground as a kill? it is just as important as those aircraft will never fly again. Not in this instance though, as the Finns were able to absorbed the bomber into their own airforce .
As a related subject, what's the oldest design that saw service in WWII? I'd argue the Avro 504, which was pre-WWI, being 1913, and although officially retired, some civilian ones were impressed into service for training. The DH.9 of 1917 was apparently still used by the SAAF until 1942, whilst the Westland Wapiti is half a DH.9, and was used until late war.
I'm pretty sure Denmark was still using the Avro 504 when they were invaded 09/04/1940.
While I personally don't regard strafing kills quite as canon compared to air-to-air kills I think the final say must go to the air force in question. If the Finns don't class it as a kill then it isn't really a kill.
True. That was the standard that their pilots had to adhere too.
It was shot at and couldn't be used by the Russians afterwards. That's the same effect as a kill.
@@mattheweagles5123 Perhaps, but most air forces did not acknowledge aircraft destroyed on the ground as 'kills' - ergo it isn't a kill in the proper sense. From a personal stand point I don't regard a strafing kill as being the same as an air-to-air kill but it is a kill but AFAIK only the US 9th AF every acknowledged them as such and the Finns certainly didn't.
@@mattheweagles5123 no it doesn't count, although what you say is true. The kill has to be against a piloted airborne aircraft.
@@gunner678 What if a pilot was taxiing. Would that be a kill...?
Great vid once again! Always look forward to these, really make my day! Is the fairy fulmar on your list at all? Like to see a few fleet air arms aircraft 👍🏻
It may have a lot of qualifiers attached, but I don't know enough detailed aviation history from the time to propose a different contender for the title. Whether it counts as the champ or not, it's still a remarkable story. It's always interesting to hear about the last-ditch, under-equipped, underdog desperation forces.
I want it to be true.
Flying and fighting in an open cockpit over Finland in winter... crazy /foolhardy/ or incredibly brave
I've never heard of this aircraft, but I'm digging the humpback shape to it. It's a good looking plane and if it was safer, and available, I wouldn't mind having one👍
Thanks Mark for another excellent piece in a very little covered topic. And yes, the destruction of that Soviet parked bomber should be considered a kill. First, it was an enemy asset taken out during a part of the conflict. And second, if anybody insists that the bomber wasn't actually active at the time of its destruction, then that logic would have us believe that the Israeli air force achieved nothing in the 1967 Six Day War when it obliterated the Arab air assets on the ground in their magnificent pre-emptive strike. An asset destroyed is an asset denied to the enemy at whatever time perhaps not though if it was still on the production line!
Aileron struts - never saw that before.
Interesting sidenote, the sales to Japan were the reason they changed the name from Gloucestershire Aircraft Company after having the name vebally mangled too many times.
Exelent video, as always. But is it a kill if that plane flew again?
What a lovely looking little aircraft, fancy a crack at a decent model of this.
Half of the Dutch airforce consisted of obsolete biplanes. I know that there were three Ju52's that run out of fuel made an emergency landing at the beach near Katwijk and were strafed and set on fire by two biplane's. I have to look in the books if I can find more information of the age of the biplanes.
Because this is TH-cam I will aggressively argue my hastily formulated and barely informed position on these questions!!
You should try twitter. Within 5 minutes someone has cited Hitler and/or issued a fatwa :)
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Oh I know and thats also how I know Im right!
Douglas Bader didn't want his Gamecock replaced by the Bulldog (the start of a trend with DB ).
As for the Kill ? I'd give those Finns full marks and a medal just for taking off that day, the rest
is as they say history.
Douglas Bader's accident was caused by a classic mistake in aviation: he did what would have been perfectly safe in the Gamecock he had been used to, and didn't allow for the fact that the Bulldog lost height faster in a roll. He started the roll close to the ground, and a wingtip brushed the ground as he rolled towards level. Another example where the same part causes most car accidents: the nut behind the wheel.
More appropriate to say he shot it up rather than shot it down and the fact that the Finns used it, it was more of a capture. Good story, good question.
Each time you show a weird, unpopular plane, that had promises but a bad timing, a dozen or so of those manage to end up in the Finish Air Force (or an obscur Polish foreign squadron) and somehow shot down Soviet planes. Incredible. You should do a special episode on the Finish Air Force during the Winter War. Absolutely ludicrous
Lol you're timing is perfect! Keep an eye out for my next two planned videos ;D
Side note; those Blenheim's sent by Brit to Finland make an interesting story.
I’d be interested in the oldest fighter design *in service* during WW2, to which the Gamecocks definitely have a solid claim. Even if this incident wasn’t a “kill”, definitely counts as “used in combat”, which is more than some more advanced aircraft of the wartime period, or the interwar for that matter can say.
Interwar aircraft development is fascinating, and it’s always interesting what uses the designs saw during the war or in the many conflicts of the supposed peacetime.
I keep selecting an “Ed Mix,” burn thru it, and TH-cam gives me yet another one! Yay algorithm (and Ed’s prolific work), boo getting anything done.
You carefully chose your words about the last wooden fighter. M.
it's really a marvel how fast aircraft technology progressed back then. think of it this way, this aircraft was 20 years old the year the first operational jet fighter took to the skies. most fighters in modern US inventory are from designs twice that age. it's wild to think just how insanely fast the technology advanced. the average F-15 is 44 years old. in 1945, this airplane wasn't even that old, and we were already kissing the sound barrier, if not breaking it if you are to believe Me-262 pilot Hans Guido Mutke.
I've heard of the Gamecock from reading the biog of Douglas Bader many years ago. Think that is the plane he crashed (barrel roll too close to the ground) and lost his legs as a resut. As for oldest plane in WW2 to get a kill, didn't the Chinese have older bi-planes that shot down Japanese aircraft? Something like a 1 to 55 ratio though?
Bader certainly flew the Gamecock, particularly when he was involved with the RAF display team and seems to have liked it. By the time of the accident though his squadron had just re-equipped with the Bristol Bulldog and it was one of those he was flying when he crashed. The fact that he didn`t have as much experience on the Bulldog may have been a contributory factor in the accident.
Thanks for this, too, as an example of aircraft design in the interwar years (I mostly focus on the U.S. context, which gave us, e.g., the Boeing monoplane fighters featured in "King Kong").
This may be of interest to you:
th-cam.com/video/vlbIvbTQDUA/w-d-xo.html
I’m pretty sure they were biplanes in King Kong. Probably the oldest fighters to shoot down a giant ape.
I do know that the Gloster Gladiator trio named Faith Hope and Charity defended Malta until British Carriers arrived.
I also thought of the Gloster Gladiator but then I remembered its entering service date was 1937. Right on the cusp of the transition to monoplanes.
I think Gloster's claim to fame is the fact that it went from biplane to jet, the Gloster Meteor, without a propeller drive monoplane in between.
@@bigblue6917 : A monoplane that entered service. Check up on the The Gloster F.5/34 - Ed's also done a vid on it.
And there's also the Gloster F.9/37 twin-engined heavy fighter.
Well until Hurricanes arrived from Egypt anyway. The Gladiator also saw a lot of service in the early years of WWII in France, Norway, North Africa and there was still a Gadiator squadron operational during the Battle of Britain. Several pilots became aces while flying it.
@@bigblue6917 The Gloster 28/39 was the first ever Jet Aeroplane. Using Sir Frank Whittle's (Power Jets company) 1760 lb ft of torque.
What about the P 26? The Philippines air force had several of these and did get some air kills in the early stages of the war. It was about as obsolete as you could get and still managed to serve their owners well,.....for a while anyway.
Winter War most definitely does count as part of WW2. The direct reason why this war took place at all was the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which also was the direct reason for Hitler daring to go ahead and finally attack Poland too. Not to mention that the Western Allies were fully prepared to use it as a pretext for their planned invasion of Norway and with the ultimate goal of securing the iron ore mines in the north of Sweden, thus denying that supply to Germany. It was also the direct reason why Finland took part in WW2 later on too, and on a much more involved level. I would count the Franco-Thai war as part of WW2 for similar reasons - the Japanese were heavily involved diplomatically and the Thais used the opportunity of France having been overrun in Europe, they would have never ever contemplated such a campaign against a full-standing colonial France. I would count most peripheral conflicts during WW2 as part of it because usually they would not have taken place at all if it wasn't for WW2. If, say, there was a border war between two countries in South America during WW2 and neither party had any affiliation or connection to any of the big players (or were even "on the same side") then I would not count that as part of WW2.
As for the 'oldest fighter to get a kill in WW2'... No, sorry. Ground kills do not count for any air force that I know of. Otherwise we would have many more aces than we have now, and it would be ridiculous if someone who got lucky one time and strafed a row of 20 aircraft on the ground would be counted the same as someone who killed 20 different aircraft in air combat over hundreds of sorties. A Sopwith Camel can ground kill an F-35, given a free hand.
If it's any consolation though, Bristol Bulldogs in Finnish service did shoot down an I-16 and and SB-2 bomber during the Winter War, even though both were vastly more modern compared to the Bulldog, and even though the Finns considered the Bulldog their most obsolete fighter aircraft still in service, barely worth keeping operational, and the Bulldog pilots considered themselves a suicide squad.
I would probably count the status of capturing a landed aircraft as a case of sky-piracy if that works, rather than a traditional kill. However I do know that Finland also used Bristol Bulldogs and one of those did properly down an I-16 in the Winter War
a point is a point and every point counts
Yes, the Winter War definitely qualifies as it was fought in Europe by the two countries involved in starting WW2 after signing the Nazi - Soviet pact and invading Poland etc.
It would be hard to beat. When I have time, I will check the Sino Japanese war.
Finns seem to be a dab hand at polishing turds as they're skill with the much maligned Brewster Buffalo would attest.
As for the Gamecock as I understand it I believe it was the mount of Douglas Bader before he converted to Bristol Bulldogs in which he had his unfortunate accident.
9:11 for those curiouse, the swastika here is a Finnish symbol and has no relation to Nazi Germany.
Thank you
More importantly, did they manage to Catch The Pigeon? ("O-o-oh dear... O-o-oh my...") 🐦😁
It's one thing to get caught on the ground in a bomber and get taken out by an antiquated biplane fighter, but fancy being the German pilot in a state-of-the-art Bf-109 getting taken out by a Belgian pilot in a Fairey Fox. That's like being in an F-22 and getting taken out by a Mig-21. If he survived it I imagine he would have been relegated to doing Ju-52 transport runs to Poland and Russia.
Why not ? It's pretty cool with a long & varied history ...
Great video as usual. Ye, doesn't count unfortunately because the targets were on the ground. The winter war certainly does count as part of WW2. The Russian invasion of Poland counts 1939, but grounded aircraft don't count.
my father told me shortly before he passed away that he regularly worked on an AVRO 504 N in Egypt in 1947 (CO's hack)in RAF service the airfields name I.ve forgotten but it had 3 small Pyramids on the perimeter, so should be easily identifiable ! as the 504 was designed about late 1911 the gamecock was probably not the oldest in 'active' service :)
I think it counts as a kill and as part of world war 2. Smaller European conflicts in the build were essentially testbeds for weapons, armies and seizing territory. Great vid, love the channel, its great to see your subscribers have shot up.
What a lovely pair!
Hello nice presentation 👏 👌 👍, saludos Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄
If it’s a ‘No’ to the main question then what’s the new ‘oldest plane to get a kill’?
If the Finnish do not count it as a kill then it is not a kill. Sorry.
Ground kills are counted separately from aerial victories and don’t count to being an ace. Pappy Boyington counted two ground kills in his tally from his time with the AVG. The USMC accepted them, but later counts have removed them as they were verified as ground kills during an AVG squadron attack of a Japanese airfield
Oldest plane involved in a air to air kill I know of were some obsolete P-26s operated by the Phlllppines air force that knocked off a few Japanese aircraft in 1941 the P-26 first flew in 1931 .
At 1:20 you say that the "Gloster Gamecock" was the last British fighter to be made of wood. Are you forgetting the"De Havilland Mosquito" fighter variant?
De Havilland Hornet was somewhat later & the De Havilland Vampire had a substantial amount of wood construction.
My greatest take away from all of this is just imagining that Luftwaffe pilot that got flex on by a Fairy Fox!
What a great WW1 aircraft! Didn't a lot of work go into obsolete aeroplanes during that period.
Aircraft on the ground are not a kill. The kill must be in the air. Richard Bong took out a landing Japanese aircraft during a mission. His superiors wanted to give hime credit saying the aircraft was bouncing off the ground during landing and was thus airborne. Bong stated the airplane was smoothly rolling down the runway, no bounce. He was not credited with a kill. His wartime tally stands at 40, not 41.
A fairly simple way to look at this is not to use the term ‘kill’ but rather ‘victory’. So then you can have ‘aerial victories’ and say, ‘strafing victories’ or simply ground targets destroyed/damaged.
I wonder which was the oldest aircraft to shoot down another aircraft while both were in the air in WWII. I would guess the Boeing P-26 Peashooter in either Philippine or China service. Also the start of the Spanish Civil War in 1936 is considered by some historians as the beginning of WWII.
Ed, I love the discussion that you bring up. There were certainly a lot of "minor wars" being fought right before WW II, although I do not think the combatants or the local civilians caught up in them would think of them as minor. These conflicts certainly did play a role in shaping the armies that subsequently fought in WW II by testing their material and military doctrine. In the future we may see the same debate going on a hundred years from now about the run up to WW III as we see an increase in small wars and "border crises" going on now. Hopefully we as a species are smarter than our ancestors were back in the 1930's although looking at who is in charge now I do not see a lot of intelligence nor fortitude of spirit. I bring this up because of your video the other day of Britain arming the Ukrainians. Keep up the great work.
I don't know about foreign airforces but the allied airforces at that time did not count aircraft destroyed on the ground as 'Kills'.
The Gamecock and the Finish incident you describe happened at a time when many pre WW wars were getting started, Germany fought over Spain using 1930's Heinkel fighter bombers which did take part in combat also the Japanese invasion of China. Wasn't it the Camecock that cost Douglas Bader his legs?
As a common visitor to Malta, they only had 6 Gloster Gladiators biplanes at the beginning of the war, flying in threes, as the most at any time, till more modern planes arrived. And the Swastica on the Finnish planes, had nothing to do with Germany and Nazism, though the Finns joined Germany at one time, in their attack on Russia!
yes indeed, the Finnish "Hooked cross" (like some versions used in religous regalia in India, spun in the opposite direction to the Nazi version.
The Swedish noble who's private symbol it was later became a Nazi. An unfortunate coinsidence. His wife's sister was in fact married to Göring.
@@tessalyyvuo1667 Danish Carlsberg Brevery also had a Nordic svastica on its beers. It became removed and replaced as a first when Germany invaded Denmark!!!
First 'actual' aerial victory in Winter War and for FAF too was gained by Bristol Bulldog, 1. December 1939 11:45 am staffsergeant Toivo Uuttu and his wingman got to doffight with six Polikarpov I-16s. Stf, srgt Uuttu managed to hit one his opponents so that Rata left battle smoking. It was later reported to have made forced landing,,, and - it is said that the russian pilot would have been no one else but an upcoming ace and 'Hero of Soviet Union', Aleksandr Ivanovitsh Pokryshkin....
The vintage of the design of the aircraft is certainly to be considered as the vintage of the individual aircraft involved in the incident unless the design was sufficiently enough modified as to no longer be classifiable as the same aircraft. If this is not the case then it can be classified as a mid 1920's design.
The matter of whether or not this can be classified as an air combat kill depends quite a bit on the way the nation in question saw such matters at the time. Without question it was a combat ground attack kill, depriving the enemy of a valuable aircraft and crewmembers, conducted by an aircraft that was well and truly obsolete by that time.
It took place during the period of World War Two and involved at least one nation that became one of the primary participants in that war, and can be seen as a WW2 related aggressive invasive land grab that was part of the preliminary manouvering to that war, much like the Nazi invasion of Poland. Interesting that in this post war period Russia still has that land it violently siezed and still has not returned it. Can WW2 truly be said to be over then?
The paperwork says it ended on May 8th 45 and while there was some fighting that continued in isolated areas for a month or so afterwards the land grab by the Soviets fits more into the Cold War as it was part of their ignoring the expectations of the Western Allies.
The incident described here by Ed Nash here can't be consider a kill. As for the two Russian bombers strafed one got away & another captured by the Finn's. Neither were destroyed in the incident. As others have noted most countries only considered aerial victories (ie: aircraft shot down or in rare incidents brought down by other means such as a collision) as kills. Also the start of WW2 really varies from country to country (different countries got involved at different times) as mentioned. Can conflicts during 30's between Japan & China be considered (know bi-planes were involved on both sides in that conflict)? Regardless very much enjoy the presentations here on Ed Nash's Military Matters, always interesting stuff!
NO
Refuses to elaborate
Leaves.
The Swastika on Finnish aircraft? Do I remember learning something about that?
How the heck did they keep one running until 1944? That's the actual mystery.
The only objection I would have is regarding the fact the russian aircraft was destroyed on the ground. Otherwise, countless "kills", including by attack aircrafts or bombers, would/could have been recorded.
As a Belgian, I'm of course interested by the story of the Fairey Fox allegedly downing a BF109, certainly a very rare achievement for a biplane. If you have additional infos regarding it, I'd be delighted!
Thanks a lot for your remarkable channel, full of rare documents, infos and stories, and so beautifully narrated that I never have to turn the subtitles on! ;-)
If the aircarft was on the ground than it is just a ground attack and not an air kill. IAF air kills on the six days war, were only counted when the aircaraft was flying.
Just an out of the box question. How do wooden airframes compare with metal when it comes to RCS radar cross section?
It was certainly a 'victory' over the DB3 and its crew. That fact it wasn't destroyed but was captured and reused is actually more valuable than an air-to-air 'kill'.
Winter war defintely part of WW2.
Great and informative video, as always on this channel. Now I have to go see if I can fly this on War Thunder.