Like Inel Pandzic on youtube in his voyager review, i moved my alphas up one row, and made the bottom row a thumb row. with only 3 rows and low profile keycaps, all you need are tilters to create a key well. 3dkeycap has some or you can even print your own. My Q and Z rows are tilted towards the homerow, and the bottom row is tilted towards my thumbs.
Thanks for another informative keyboard video. As a result of your early videos I brought an advantage 360 pro keyboard. At the same time I discovered the Miryoku 36 key keyboard layout. So I used a keyboard from day one with a colemak layout , 36 key and layers. I’m 54 but picked up the changes really quickly. 1 yearish later, i wouldn’t go back to a standard keyboard. I’ve also altered my layout and layers to better suit programming too. The advantage of the 360 keyboard is that I can use the extra keys for other functions, like switching between us and uk layout, macros,kvm etc but 99.99% of my typing is on 36 keys and I can do a full day work and be pain free at the end. 36 keys on a ergo keyboard is super comfortable. Also picked up a corne keyboard for travel.
I have a 42 key piantor, and have started using combos to toggle on each layer...so FJ->Layer 1, FK->Layer 2 etc and from every layer the equivalent of FD toggles back to Layer 0...this has been a great improvement to workflow and speed using the keyboard....
@@ShaneZarechian yes, simultaneous press...I've changed to using a momentary on in lieu of toggling on the layer...so holding FD turns on layer one and so does JK...so use left hand to hold on layer one so right hand can use the keypad...FS and JL turns on layer two etc....when you release the keys you are back to layer 0, I like this better, less thought required vs toggling layers
@@ShaneZarechian the hot dox looks like the way to go with regard to key count and thumb keys...I don't think the keywell on the advantage has any magic....I do prefer the MX keys over choc and like a wider spacing over the piantor....I constantly hit multiple keys with the close spacing and choc keys
good heavens, ben vallack jumpscare. also great video once again Ben, I feel like the writing, presentation and production value in this one were a lot more engaging and elaborate than some of your earlier videos. Really enjoyed it, great work!
I love the fact that you [constantly] fail to stop making keyboard videos, they are always very straightforward and right into your face (which for a German like me is highly appreciated). I use a Planck (47 keys) also with Colemak-DHm including a mouse layer (I don't use a physical mouse any more). I could as of now never get used to low profile switches, I love heavy tactiles (75+ gr) and high profile keycaps (SA or MT3), I enjoy the physical sensation of typing, which is significantly removed when you use choc, chicklet or scissor switches. For certain letters (German umlauts or Polish diacritics) I have to use 3 or 4 keys at once but as you say - it's all about muscle memory and if you never have to move your fingers more that one key in any direction it's really just gettings used to. What's next? 16 Keys like Ben Vallack did? Steno on a UniV4? 🙃
Ha, thanks for watching. 🙏 Think I prefer the heavier switches generally too. Next? Revisiting the advantage360 and probably something I’ve used loads over the years but never done a video on: the Boardwalk/Promenade.
Moved my mod keys to the row below the home row, because of key rollover: I'd get too many alts and shifts happening particularly on the home row. Still the timing for holding vs rollover is a bit tricky on my ZSA Moonlander; happy to investigate alternatives so with your videos I have extra pointers and ideas.
RE: thumb tiredness. This is on a planck, but similar idea - thumb key activates layer. I actually use a light linear switch for those keys, while my main keys are medium clicky switches. Not sure how much you can mix and match with low profile - but I think the act of holding down a key vs tapping it is different enough that you might want to try a very light linear there.
I went with the mirroring philosophy of home row mods to setup navigation for both left and right hands to swap off a bit to avoid fatigue of always holding down left side to arrow on right side.
As someone who is getting into split kbs (waiting all my parts to build a lily58), this was extremely interesting to watch. I was considering to build a corne after but adapting to that will be even harder, so I'll take my time with the lily58 before even considering that step.
@@benfrainuk Hey Ben, which keyboard have you been using most often these days? I’ve been using a Moonlander for about 8 months, but I find it a bit challenging to reach some keys with my pinky. Since my language (PT-BR) uses a lot of accentuation, this has been a bit of a struggle. I’m considering switching to a Glove80 with Red Pro switches to try out the keywell design and benefit from lighter switches. What are your thoughts?
I love the Corne-ish zen~ I heard about them right before R3 and picked up 2 of them! (Thank goodness, since they won't be making any more and I am worried about ESD and such) Def. my favorite keyboard of all time, I just wish it was a production keyboard I didn't have to worry about, instead of a boutique custom~ I did buy a ZSA Voyager recently for that reason, and I'm excited to be able to use the choc switches and keycaps I found for both^^
I agree and don't like the location of thumbs for many of the smaller keyboard. I rarely use the bottom row outer modifiers on my preferred board, the Reviung41. I relegate the control, alt, and enter to them. Also use tab (on both sides) for my layer 1 instead of using the bottom row. Navigation is so important as I use them more than 60% of my standard letters. I played with putting them on my base layer on the ;./, but also looked for smaller keyboards that had dedicated arrows. I also use lighter switches for my nav layer key. The 40% movement is all about removing what you don't need and keeping what you do. There are quite a few keyboards out there that are in the 40's camp. I'm very happy programming on a little keyboard, but agreed - different things work for different people. Great job giving it an honest effort and thanks for posting about it.
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Your channel was my introduction to the bizarre world of split keyboards, I’m now on my fifth purchase - a wonderful little Ferris Sweep from Boardsource. Just wanted to say thank you for all the hard work you put into making these wonderful videos!
Over the last year i bought a kinesis advantage 360, then a Glove80, and then a corne 42 prebuild. I am going to stick with my Corne and try to sell the other ones. The only flaw I can really sense is that the P and Q buttons are not as comfortable to hit as the Glove80, for example, but in general I feel more comfortable and faster with fewer keys. It is probably muscle memory because I only use these keyboards for work and then I am on a normal keyboard gaming all night. I appreciate the small form factor of the corne because it eats up significantly less space on my desk, and feels more similar to a normal keyboard. Using a layer for special characters and stuff is more natural since the keys are not in physically "weird" locations (offset, different shapes, up higher etc).
I have always used my symbols on different layer, it was hard to learn, but now I use them all the time it feels so much better now. I really wish the Advantage 360 did not have a number row
I'm in the same boat! I'm very bad at reaching two rows up and find it easier to use a thumb modifier for numbers+symbols. The top row on my Voyager is a set of arrows keys and media controls.
for arrow keys have you tried adding a numpad in between the halves. I know it adds bulk but if you need the dedicated keys it makes sense. And its nice for the numbers too!
A year ago I was using a moonlander, and went down bit by bit to about 44 keys. Then I switched to a sofle choc, to get the short stroke mechanical switches, but I realized I didn't need the outer column or the number row. Now I have a 36 key Corne 5x3+3, but I want a pinky column that's more aggressively staggered. I ordered a ferris sweep 5x3+2 kit, which should arrive by the end of the month.
to solve the lack of dedicated arrow keys issue you could implement an "arrow lock" behavior similar to caps-word. hit a dedicated key or combo to turn on your arrow key cluster wherever you want, and whenever you hit another key outside those dedicated arrow keys it could toggle back off. other problems like over usage of thumbs from holding down to get to stuff on other layers can be addressed with sticky/one-shot layers or combos too. I think the spectrum you mention of more keys vs more layers is actually missing a third direction, which is more custom mappings/behaviors. great videos btw, you were the first split ergo + vim guy I encountered on my way into this rabbit hole!
Hi Nick, the rabbit hole 🤣 yes, sure is that. I have thought about/tried things like that for the arrows but it’s back to being a mental burden v physical burden. I know these things can all be solved on boards with less keys but there is always the counter argument that you should just have more keys. I don’t think there is a solution really, just do what feels right/productive for the individual. Some of the most productive people I know get by fine with a cheapo full size membrane keyboard, bog standard mouse and VSCode so I’m not here to judge anyone for what works for them!
The chalice40 has arrow keys and is a beautiful 40% if you are able to find one. You can also add dedicated arrows to voyager if you move the alphas up one row. But if you have right thumb spacebar hold as layer1 and your arrows at hjkl on layer1, it doesn't get much more efficient than that... I have many keyboards now, and just use the same layers on all of them. I believe your thumb pain may be your greatest issue.
How many people have asked questions pertaining to the subject matter(s) addressed in this video, for them to spend copious amounts of , hours developing memory muscle and tweaking layers to get the answer 🤔 Whilst this video may not answer every question or use case, it does a ruddy good job of answering most; plenty for the complete novice to make an informed decision. My hat off to you (Ben Frain)!
True, every time I try Via though (can never even get Vial up and running) I find there is some crucial thing it lacks. Think CAPSWORD was the one last time. But absolutely worth looking at. Especially as it helps to understand what’s possible conceptually
Using a 34 key ferris sweep, about to build a 36 key Cygnus and I’m struggling to figure out what to do with the extra two keys lol! I’m longing to try and Charbdys Nano+3 where I could use the extra thumb buttons for mouse clicks. I really like the small boards, my workflow consists of: * tiling wm * vim * terminal use with terminal multiplexer * Light browser use with Vimium (most things where I used to do in a browser I now instead have CLI/TUIs for and it’s awesome)
@@benfrainuk Sure, but none of the ergo, columnar keyboards that I know of have a number pad or arrow pad. Also having separate pieces would allow you to position them for greater ergonomics and keep the footprint small when you don't need the extra keys, like when traveling. And there are other situational benefits to separate boards. I have a media control 3x3 keyboard plugged into my personal machine, so that when I KVM switch my main keyboard over to my work machine, I can still control the music that's playing.
We need a tier list. Love your videos and they're super informative, but a tier list would be great for comparison of all the boards you have tried so far!
Great video! I've been there as well... In my experience, getting used to the alphas, numbers and special characters in isolation is quite a smooth process but totally unrelated to using combinations of them as shortcuts while you're focused on something else. And ultimately, I figured that I want to be able to work on my laptop's keyboard while on the road so I reverted to some minimal adjustments instead. Instead of modifying the keyboard hardware, I made some software tweaks to what each key does, for example getting a pair of parentheses with an inward roll rather than an outward roll, removing dead keys for programming symbols, and so on.
I think the space issue is just a mapping problem, I use left thumb for cntrl windows alt and right for enter space bkspace...in all layers, then a layer for numpad right hand, shifted symbols left hand, a third layer for media left hand, navigation right hand...finally a fourth for function keys...use a combo to toggle on any layer from layer 0 and a combo from each layer directly back to layer 0
I bought a Moonlander and a used Kinesis Advantage2 and I just like how the Kinesis feels so much more and it's a bummer because I want to like the Moonlander so bad but it is so hard to use any of the keys on the outside perimeter.
Great video Ben. I’ve been using a 6 column, 4 row Iris keyboard for a few months now. I program but I use vim keymaps in all my IDEs, so I don’t miss the arrow keys often. I also have the arrow keys on one layer in the same positions as my HJKL keys (in Colemak-DH layout) so they’re in the same place as vim movement keys. Recommend trying out vim motions in your IDE.
The arrows get the heaviest usage in design applications and it’s that need that drives my obsession with having a dedicated arrow cluster really. I have them on the home row behind a layer on my smaller boards even though that’s not my hjkl keys (also Colemak DHm). I do use arrows in Neovim too though!
Arrow keys are definitely really hard to put under a layer. Shoot, whether in work or play, I use them ALL the time. I have a Dygma Defy and counter to what a lot of people seem to recommend, I have my arrow keys in one of the thumb clusters, for each layer. I just can't give them up.
With all the keyboards mentioned in this review, let alone the others reviewed on this channel, I'm keen to know which you'd consider your daily driver that you keep coming back to?
i will watch the video later i have to leave home in 5 minutes, but i have found the answer for me. oddly enough the answer is that the most common inputs i want them in layers so i don't have to move my hands. however actions like media controls i want them in distinct keys somewhere else. i have done the same with delete and caps lock. i use them so rarely that i would forget where they are if they were in one of the 3 layers. this way there is no mistake the few times that i prefer to use them. also for me i need ctrl super key and alt keys under the letter cluster so for me i can't go under 4 rows and 6 columns plus 3 key clusters. i obviously want and have 8 more keys in my ergodash i can't cut. they are not necessary but they make the input device more easy to use when i am not in the zone.
based on your reviews and some others, I bought an advantage360 usb...I've had it a day and I'm already typing twice as fast as the piantor... I think it's a combination of mx type keys and wider spacing...but I do find some of the pinky keys tough to reach on the advantage.....I'm on linux so I can't comment on the smartset software. but text files are easy enough, the features are limited compared to qmk but with the added keys you really don't need all the qmk functionality....I like the idea of not having to change much
good timing for me. I've been using a Moonlander for around 9 months now, and I ordered a Voyager a few days ago ... I wonder if I'll be able to get used to less keys. I also have dedicated arrow keys (vim style) on my Moonlander.
Another great video! 42 keys is rookie numbers! I can understand the benefits of more keys, but for me I think I’ve hit my sweet spot at 30 keys. Once the muscle memory is up to speed I couldn’t see myself being as productive on any more keys.
@@benfrainuk I don’t use arrows that much. I have them on a layer in vim positions. Using really light switches means I have no strain from pushing keys to access layers.
Nice video! I wonder if the video titled "Boost your macOS productivity by snapping windows with Hookshot" is the one that explains how you manage your windows on Mac?
Thanks for the great videos! I apologize if you’ve said in another video, but what’s your favorite keyboard right now? The one you seem to always go back to for a daily driver.
FWIW, I feel the same way about arrow keys. I wish more split keyboards didn’t give up arrow keys, which I probably use more often than certain characters.
do it, I got corne for around 160$ from typeractive without displays(+20$ for each display)... they have almost none functionality... appart from showing you which layer are you on.
@@benfrainuk ah, makes sense. For some reason I presumed a bottom right T cluster, like on 75% keyboards. Do you have your layouts published somewhere to prevent further dumb questions? :)
Hi Ben, that Zen looks amazing! I just got a corne-ish keyboard and can't quite figure out how to configure it. You mentioned you had a video about using what I think is the same GUI for ZMK that I've been trying to figure out. Could you put a link in the description or post in the comments please? Thanks for another great video!
Speaking of the Corne-ish Zen, I have one but it's one of the batch that needs Kapton tape added to some contacts internally, which I haven't had the courage to attempt. Did yours need that and how did it go if so?
@@benfrainuk Sorry, looks like my response was eaten for having a domain in it, but R3 does require the kapton tape mod to prevent an ESD from killing it.
Yes, you can build yourself a basic corne for far less but when you factor in the e-ink displays, hotswap and custom aluminium enclosure you can appreciate where the extra money is going
I love your review of this small keyboard and the breakdown of each day. I bought the Voyager from ZSA and it definitely took some getting use to. I've had it for about 6 months and I'm on the 49th iteration of my layout. After a while it become really comfortable and your hotkeys make you feel like a wizard.
rgb layr+/-bluetooth layer media +/- nav layer function(f24) layr +/- number layer mouse layer +/- special symbol layr macro layer? if shell is enabled...may be anotehr layer... cant have these many layers if you are handling like 10 programs at one... so it is always more keys...end of discussions
Amazing video and channel you have. Such high quality 👌 Love it. And you are into the same nerd things :) Happy to connect if you like to :) Maybe you want to reduce even more? 😛 Greetings from Germany Edit: I totally agree, less keys don’t make you more productive, it’s just fun. I am planning a video about productivity on smaller boards for a while and came to the same conclusion so far. I love 36 keys, but they don’t make you more productive. But I don’t want to go back to a normal keyboard.
Ben Vallack subliminal advertising at 2:33
Haha :) Well done
Ben Vallack is the demon that haunts my dreams for using a TKL keyboard layout.
For anyone interested I emailed ZSA to be sure they have no plans to release anything with a concave keywell and sadly they do not.
Like Inel Pandzic on youtube in his voyager review, i moved my alphas up one row, and made the bottom row a thumb row. with only 3 rows and low profile keycaps, all you need are tilters to create a key well. 3dkeycap has some or you can even print your own. My Q and Z rows are tilted towards the homerow, and the bottom row is tilted towards my thumbs.
I wonder how they are doing because the Moonlander was called the Mk I for a long time but no sign of a Mk II
@@IQof2 i read a something related to the MK II and they answered that they have no plans for a MK II in the near future
Heh, I did the same last week and can confirm. They do not.
there is a concave mod for the Voyager - can be seen on the zsa blog
Quite the jumpscare at 2:33! Excellent video as always
😉
Gotta say, it really does make my day to see you release videos on keyboards. Keep at it! These really helped me explore the keyboard space!
Lovely to hear that. Appreciated 🙏
Thanks for another informative keyboard video. As a result of your early videos I brought an advantage 360 pro keyboard. At the same time I discovered the Miryoku 36 key keyboard layout.
So I used a keyboard from day one with a colemak layout , 36 key and layers. I’m 54 but picked up the changes really quickly. 1 yearish later, i wouldn’t go back to a standard keyboard. I’ve also altered my layout and layers to better suit programming too.
The advantage of the 360 keyboard is that I can use the extra keys for other functions, like switching between us and uk layout, macros,kvm etc but 99.99% of my typing is on 36 keys and I can do a full day work and be pain free at the end. 36 keys on a ergo keyboard is super comfortable.
Also picked up a corne keyboard for travel.
Good job 👍
You nailed it! I'm using an Advantage (kb500) in 36-key mode for my desktop, and a Piantor-Pro for my laptop. Miryoku FTW!
I have a 42 key piantor, and have started using combos to toggle on each layer...so FJ->Layer 1, FK->Layer 2 etc and from every layer the equivalent of FD toggles back to Layer 0...this has been a great improvement to workflow and speed using the keyboard....
Like pressing them at the same time?
@@ShaneZarechian yes, simultaneous press...I've changed to using a momentary on in lieu of toggling on the layer...so holding FD turns on layer one and so does JK...so use left hand to hold on layer one so right hand can use the keypad...FS and JL turns on layer two etc....when you release the keys you are back to layer 0, I like this better, less thought required vs toggling layers
@@franksenkel2715 I think I'm gonna use this set up even though I'm getting a hot dox which has 5 rows
@@ShaneZarechian the hot dox looks like the way to go with regard to key count and thumb keys...I don't think the keywell on the advantage has any magic....I do prefer the MX keys over choc and like a wider spacing over the piantor....I constantly hit multiple keys with the close spacing and choc keys
good heavens, ben vallack jumpscare. also great video once again Ben, I feel like the writing, presentation and production value in this one were a lot more engaging and elaborate than some of your earlier videos. Really enjoyed it, great work!
I love the fact that you [constantly] fail to stop making keyboard videos, they are always very straightforward and right into your face (which for a German like me is highly appreciated). I use a Planck (47 keys) also with Colemak-DHm including a mouse layer (I don't use a physical mouse any more). I could as of now never get used to low profile switches, I love heavy tactiles (75+ gr) and high profile keycaps (SA or MT3), I enjoy the physical sensation of typing, which is significantly removed when you use choc, chicklet or scissor switches. For certain letters (German umlauts or Polish diacritics) I have to use 3 or 4 keys at once but as you say - it's all about muscle memory and if you never have to move your fingers more that one key in any direction it's really just gettings used to.
What's next? 16 Keys like Ben Vallack did? Steno on a UniV4? 🙃
Ha, thanks for watching. 🙏 Think I prefer the heavier switches generally too.
Next? Revisiting the advantage360 and probably something I’ve used loads over the years but never done a video on: the Boardwalk/Promenade.
Moved my mod keys to the row below the home row, because of key rollover: I'd get too many alts and shifts happening particularly on the home row.
Still the timing for holding vs rollover is a bit tricky on my ZSA Moonlander; happy to investigate alternatives so with your videos I have extra pointers and ideas.
I did the same! Felt a lot more natural, especially when I'm using hjkl for navigation in vim. Especially with retro tapping enabled.
RE: thumb tiredness.
This is on a planck, but similar idea - thumb key activates layer. I actually use a light linear switch for those keys, while my main keys are medium clicky switches. Not sure how much you can mix and match with low profile - but I think the act of holding down a key vs tapping it is different enough that you might want to try a very light linear there.
I went with the mirroring philosophy of home row mods to setup navigation for both left and right hands to swap off a bit to avoid fatigue of always holding down left side to arrow on right side.
Thanks, this was really helpful! I usually quit somewhere during these videos, but everything here were insights I valued. Subscribed! 👌
As someone who is getting into split kbs (waiting all my parts to build a lily58), this was extremely interesting to watch. I was considering to build a corne after but adapting to that will be even harder, so I'll take my time with the lily58 before even considering that step.
Thanks, Ben! Nerdy or not, it definitely helped me see the small ones are not for me! :)
Perfect! Then my work here is done 👍🙏
@@benfrainuk Hey Ben, which keyboard have you been using most often these days? I’ve been using a Moonlander for about 8 months, but I find it a bit challenging to reach some keys with my pinky. Since my language (PT-BR) uses a lot of accentuation, this has been a bit of a struggle. I’m considering switching to a Glove80 with Red Pro switches to try out the keywell design and benefit from lighter switches. What are your thoughts?
I love the Corne-ish zen~ I heard about them right before R3 and picked up 2 of them! (Thank goodness, since they won't be making any more and I am worried about ESD and such) Def. my favorite keyboard of all time, I just wish it was a production keyboard I didn't have to worry about, instead of a boutique custom~
I did buy a ZSA Voyager recently for that reason, and I'm excited to be able to use the choc switches and keycaps I found for both^^
I agree and don't like the location of thumbs for many of the smaller keyboard. I rarely use the bottom row outer modifiers on my preferred board, the Reviung41. I relegate the control, alt, and enter to them. Also use tab (on both sides) for my layer 1 instead of using the bottom row.
Navigation is so important as I use them more than 60% of my standard letters. I played with putting them on my base layer on the ;./, but also looked for smaller keyboards that had dedicated arrows. I also use lighter switches for my nav layer key.
The 40% movement is all about removing what you don't need and keeping what you do. There are quite a few keyboards out there that are in the 40's camp.
I'm very happy programming on a little keyboard, but agreed - different things work for different people.
Great job giving it an honest effort and thanks for posting about it.
Your channel was my introduction to the bizarre world of split keyboards, I’m now on my fifth purchase - a wonderful little Ferris Sweep from Boardsource. Just wanted to say thank you for all the hard work you put into making these wonderful videos!
Over the last year i bought a kinesis advantage 360, then a Glove80, and then a corne 42 prebuild. I am going to stick with my Corne and try to sell the other ones. The only flaw I can really sense is that the P and Q buttons are not as comfortable to hit as the Glove80, for example, but in general I feel more comfortable and faster with fewer keys. It is probably muscle memory because I only use these keyboards for work and then I am on a normal keyboard gaming all night. I appreciate the small form factor of the corne because it eats up significantly less space on my desk, and feels more similar to a normal keyboard. Using a layer for special characters and stuff is more natural since the keys are not in physically "weird" locations (offset, different shapes, up higher etc).
I have always used my symbols on different layer, it was hard to learn, but now I use them all the time it feels so much better now. I really wish the Advantage 360 did not have a number row
I’m not quite there. Don’t like having a function key row but still appreciate number row
@@benfrainuk Yeah, I get what you mean. My number row is serving as a function row right now.
I'm in the same boat! I'm very bad at reaching two rows up and find it easier to use a thumb modifier for numbers+symbols. The top row on my Voyager is a set of arrows keys and media controls.
@@johnr3936hmm, might give arrows on the top row of the Voyager another go then
for arrow keys have you tried adding a numpad in between the halves. I know it adds bulk but if you need the dedicated keys it makes sense. And its nice for the numbers too!
A year ago I was using a moonlander, and went down bit by bit to about 44 keys. Then I switched to a sofle choc, to get the short stroke mechanical switches, but I realized I didn't need the outer column or the number row. Now I have a 36 key Corne 5x3+3, but I want a pinky column that's more aggressively staggered. I ordered a ferris sweep 5x3+2 kit, which should arrive by the end of the month.
Let me know if you prefer the sweep!
to solve the lack of dedicated arrow keys issue you could implement an "arrow lock" behavior similar to caps-word. hit a dedicated key or combo to turn on your arrow key cluster wherever you want, and whenever you hit another key outside those dedicated arrow keys it could toggle back off. other problems like over usage of thumbs from holding down to get to stuff on other layers can be addressed with sticky/one-shot layers or combos too. I think the spectrum you mention of more keys vs more layers is actually missing a third direction, which is more custom mappings/behaviors. great videos btw, you were the first split ergo + vim guy I encountered on my way into this rabbit hole!
Hi Nick, the rabbit hole 🤣 yes, sure is that.
I have thought about/tried things like that for the arrows but it’s back to being a mental burden v physical burden. I know these things can all be solved on boards with less keys but there is always the counter argument that you should just have more keys. I don’t think there is a solution really, just do what feels right/productive for the individual. Some of the most productive people I know get by fine with a cheapo full size membrane keyboard, bog standard mouse and VSCode so I’m not here to judge anyone for what works for them!
The chalice40 has arrow keys and is a beautiful 40% if you are able to find one. You can also add dedicated arrows to voyager if you move the alphas up one row. But if you have right thumb spacebar hold as layer1 and your arrows at hjkl on layer1, it doesn't get much more efficient than that... I have many keyboards now, and just use the same layers on all of them. I believe your thumb pain may be your greatest issue.
How many people have asked questions pertaining to the subject matter(s) addressed in this video, for them to spend copious amounts of , hours developing memory muscle and tweaking layers to get the answer 🤔
Whilst this video may not answer every question or use case, it does a ruddy good job of answering most; plenty for the complete novice to make an informed decision.
My hat off to you (Ben Frain)!
Just as I was contemplating buying a Kyria kit, you came out with this video. Excellent timing!
Via software you can have layers, combos or home row. It can be easy way to try those concepts.
True, every time I try Via though (can never even get Vial up and running) I find there is some crucial thing it lacks. Think CAPSWORD was the one last time. But absolutely worth looking at. Especially as it helps to understand what’s possible conceptually
Using a 34 key ferris sweep, about to build a 36 key Cygnus and I’m struggling to figure out what to do with the extra two keys lol! I’m longing to try and Charbdys Nano+3 where I could use the extra thumb buttons for mouse clicks.
I really like the small boards, my workflow consists of:
* tiling wm
* vim
* terminal use with terminal multiplexer
* Light browser use with Vimium (most things where I used to do in a browser I now instead have CLI/TUIs for and it’s awesome)
With either small keyboard, you could try getting a second keyboard that is just a number pad or arrow pad.
That kind of makes the argument for just having the keys you actually need on a single keyboard though!
@@benfrainuk Sure, but none of the ergo, columnar keyboards that I know of have a number pad or arrow pad.
Also having separate pieces would allow you to position them for greater ergonomics and keep the footprint small when you don't need the extra keys, like when traveling.
And there are other situational benefits to separate boards. I have a media control 3x3 keyboard plugged into my personal machine, so that when I KVM switch my main keyboard over to my work machine, I can still control the music that's playing.
We need a tier list. Love your videos and they're super informative, but a tier list would be great for comparison of all the boards you have tried so far!
I’ll likely do a mega showdown vid soon comparing all the pros and cons of each. Would that be useful?
Great video! I've been there as well... In my experience, getting used to the alphas, numbers and special characters in isolation is quite a smooth process but totally unrelated to using combinations of them as shortcuts while you're focused on something else. And ultimately, I figured that I want to be able to work on my laptop's keyboard while on the road so I reverted to some minimal adjustments instead. Instead of modifying the keyboard hardware, I made some software tweaks to what each key does, for example getting a pair of parentheses with an inward roll rather than an outward roll, removing dead keys for programming symbols, and so on.
I think the space issue is just a mapping problem, I use left thumb for cntrl windows alt and right for enter space bkspace...in all layers, then a layer for numpad right hand, shifted symbols left hand, a third layer for media left hand, navigation right hand...finally a fourth for function keys...use a combo to toggle on any layer from layer 0 and a combo from each layer directly back to layer 0
Interesting. Might try the combos for the later switch 🤔
I bought a Moonlander and a used Kinesis Advantage2 and I just like how the Kinesis feels so much more and it's a bummer because I want to like the Moonlander so bad but it is so hard to use any of the keys on the outside perimeter.
I honestly put your opinion over everyone lol. Thanks for this one!
Great video Ben.
I’ve been using a 6 column, 4 row Iris keyboard for a few months now.
I program but I use vim keymaps in all my IDEs, so I don’t miss the arrow keys often.
I also have the arrow keys on one layer in the same positions as my HJKL keys (in Colemak-DH layout) so they’re in the same place as vim movement keys.
Recommend trying out vim motions in your IDE.
The arrows get the heaviest usage in design applications and it’s that need that drives my obsession with having a dedicated arrow cluster really. I have them on the home row behind a layer on my smaller boards even though that’s not my hjkl keys (also Colemak DHm). I do use arrows in Neovim too though!
I
Arrow keys are definitely really hard to put under a layer. Shoot, whether in work or play, I use them ALL the time. I have a Dygma Defy and counter to what a lot of people seem to recommend, I have my arrow keys in one of the thumb clusters, for each layer. I just can't give them up.
With all the keyboards mentioned in this review, let alone the others reviewed on this channel, I'm keen to know which you'd consider your daily driver that you keep coming back to?
Honestly, there are a few! Boardwalk, Moonlander I’ve had the longest but I couldn’t single one out really
i will watch the video later i have to leave home in 5 minutes, but i have found the answer for me. oddly enough the answer is that the most common inputs i want them in layers so i don't have to move my hands. however actions like media controls i want them in distinct keys somewhere else. i have done the same with delete and caps lock. i use them so rarely that i would forget where they are if they were in one of the 3 layers. this way there is no mistake the few times that i prefer to use them. also for me i need ctrl super key and alt keys under the letter cluster so for me i can't go under 4 rows and 6 columns plus 3 key clusters. i obviously want and have 8 more keys in my ergodash i can't cut. they are not necessary but they make the input device more easy to use when i am not in the zone.
based on your reviews and some others, I bought an advantage360 usb...I've had it a day and I'm already typing twice as fast as the piantor... I think it's a combination of mx type keys and wider spacing...but I do find some of the pinky keys tough to reach on the advantage.....I'm on linux so I can't comment on the smartset software. but text files are easy enough, the features are limited compared to qmk but with the added keys you really don't need all the qmk functionality....I like the idea of not having to change much
good timing for me. I've been using a Moonlander for around 9 months now, and I ordered a Voyager a few days ago ... I wonder if I'll be able to get used to less keys. I also have dedicated arrow keys (vim style) on my Moonlander.
Would love to see videos on ergonmic mouses or mice I guess, or an endevour to not need them atall anymore
Only mouse I use is Logitech MX Master. I’m a fan of homerow app to minimise its use though!
“for you other two who are still watching this” - lol
I belatedly hit on using chords on base layer for my cursors.
Try it with a USB foot pedal or 2. Modifiers on the foot pedals.
Another great video!
42 keys is rookie numbers! I can understand the benefits of more keys, but for me I think I’ve hit my sweet spot at 30 keys. Once the muscle memory is up to speed I couldn’t see myself being as productive on any more keys.
😮 30 keys is beyond my comprehension at this point 🤣 out of interest do you need to use arrow keys much?
@@benfrainuk I don’t use arrows that much. I have them on a layer in vim positions. Using really light switches means I have no strain from pushing keys to access layers.
Ben, when can we get a video about the updated Kinesis 360? :)
Also they sound really amazing as I just saw in this video. Did you get lubed Oil Kings in your new Kinesis as well?
Next video I’m working on 👍
Yep, oil kings 👍
chording should be used only for keys those are pressed rarely
Nice video! I wonder if the video titled "Boost your macOS productivity by snapping windows with Hookshot" is the one that explains how you manage your windows on Mac?
Yes. That’s it. Although Hookshot is now called Rectangle 👍
Thanks for the great videos! I apologize if you’ve said in another video, but what’s your favorite keyboard right now? The one you seem to always go back to for a daily driver.
Honestly Eric, it never settles. It’s usually one of Moonlander, Voyager, Advantage360, Glove80, Cornish Zen, Boardwalk 🤣🤣
@@benfrainuk Thanks! I’m leaning into moon lander, voyager, or advantage
FWIW, I feel the same way about arrow keys. I wish more split keyboards didn’t give up arrow keys, which I probably use more often than certain characters.
ive been seriously considering moving to a split key board like this
do it, I got corne for around 160$ from typeractive without displays(+20$ for each display)... they have almost none functionality... appart from showing you which layer are you on.
CORNEISH ZEN im jealous
How do you get arrows without layers on Glove 80? Doesn't keywell make it impossible?
No. It’s perfect. Bottom row on right hand is the four arrows for me. Same with A360 and all my other larger boards 👍👌
@@benfrainuk ah, makes sense. For some reason I presumed a bottom right T cluster, like on 75% keyboards. Do you have your layouts published somewhere to prevent further dumb questions? :)
Hi Ben, that Zen looks amazing! I just got a corne-ish keyboard and can't quite figure out how to configure it. You mentioned you had a video about using what I think is the same GUI for ZMK that I've been trying to figure out. Could you put a link in the description or post in the comments please? Thanks for another great video!
There is a link about 5:05 but just added links in the description 👍
Speaking of the Corne-ish Zen, I have one but it's one of the batch that needs Kapton tape added to some contacts internally, which I haven't had the courage to attempt. Did yours need that and how did it go if so?
No, mine was an R3
@@benfrainuk Sorry, looks like my response was eaten for having a domain in it, but R3 does require the kapton tape mod to prevent an ESD from killing it.
@@max_pinmine was one of the extras so already has the kapton fix installed 👍
good video!! 320 for such an small keyboard... a bit expensive..?
maybe because it's custom build and case seems to be from aluminum... I bought corne for around 160$ without display from typeractive.
Yes, you can build yourself a basic corne for far less but when you factor in the e-ink displays, hotswap and custom aluminium enclosure you can appreciate where the extra money is going
where the hell did you find a cornish zen in this day and age, i've been scouring the internet for one
Bought it around a year ago when the R3 extras were released! Had to stay up half the night due to time difference!
I love your review of this small keyboard and the breakdown of each day. I bought the Voyager from ZSA and it definitely took some getting use to. I've had it for about 6 months and I'm on the 49th iteration of my layout. After a while it become really comfortable and your hotkeys make you feel like a wizard.
Glad to hear you using the hotkeys. I absolutely love them 👍
rgb layr+/-bluetooth layer
media +/- nav layer
function(f24) layr +/- number layer
mouse layer +/- special symbol layr
macro layer?
if shell is enabled...may be anotehr layer...
cant have these many layers if you are handling like 10 programs at one...
so it is always more keys...end of discussions
Amazing video and channel you have. Such high quality 👌
Love it.
And you are into the same nerd things :)
Happy to connect if you like to :)
Maybe you want to reduce even more? 😛
Greetings from Germany
Edit: I totally agree, less keys don’t make you more productive, it’s just fun. I am planning a video about productivity on smaller boards for a while and came to the same conclusion so far. I love 36 keys, but they don’t make you more productive. But I don’t want to go back to a normal keyboard.
I never use arrow keys
Extra keys with extra layers 😅
*Fewer keys 😊
*fewer
Will you be my internet dad?
less keys = annoying af