I needed to transcribe this. "The only thing in your way - very simply - is this... Insistent and persistent system of assistants. Whereby your assistants are either existent, and then the system is non-existent, or your assistants are consistently disparate and distant at which point you've only got yourself to blame. Haven't you?"
For me Concordia became boring after 5 plays, and Istambul did not. Istanbul is much more dynamic and controllable (even with funny neutral trader variant). And it's like 30-40 minutes long. I was avoiding Istanbul for a few years and I was WRONG. And I LOVE heavy gaming, for the record... You can retheme Istambul for Star Wars and you would have great pick up n deliver game, with race element, crew sending and collecting, upgrading the ship and your hero, dealing with smugglers, gambling in Casino. Concordia is more dry and mechanical than any Knizia's game. And Herr Doctor liked it dry.... Anyway, great review as always! :)
sounds fun! i might pick it up. Thanks for pointing out the gender disparity btw. Slightly more than half of my gaming friends are women and it's really frustrating when you get 8 of us together to play, and 6 of us are disappointment because there are only 2 female characters you can play as. Or worse, when I want to play a game with my 13 year old daughter, and the only women are the old one and the boob one.
I love how SUSD always incorporates the "between the lines" stuff in our hobby. Games, just like other media, have hidden messages. It's important to be aware of them and without SUSD's coverage, I'd be oblivious to most, if not all, of it.
Exactly! It's not that the developers are pushing some secret political agenda, it's that humans have opinions, even if we're unaware of them, and those opinions make it into our media. We're not imagining secret meanings in board games, we're just trying to figure out what sources went into it.
I used to be a tree hugging hippie. After playing one game of Instanbul, I canceled my membership to Sierra Club, favorited Info Wars in my browser, and joined the GOP. Perhaps not a hidden message, but somehow, subliminally, it flipped my polarity. Beware!
Some poor fragile blokes think that raising awareness of 'potentially problematic' gender-related design (whether it's intentional or not) is an elitist perspective. If you worry about these kind of discussions being used to make you feel like a worse human being, maybe that's the point. If even considering the issue somehow disrupts the fun you have playing board games, maybe you actually do need to be a better human being, eh? (yes, the perspective is lovely from up on this horse, thanks for asking)
21:04 - please put the Concordia box lid on the right way! I don't know how a board gamer can live with knowing the box lid is on incorrectly relative to the box base. That's like putting your DVD's or books away sometimes normally and sometimes upside down or worse - with the label facing inwards! Chaos!
Every now and then I step away from SU&SD and when I return, I get renewed by the quality and comraderie of these reviews. Info, laughs, truth, and opinion. All packaged neatly for our consumption. As many thumbs as I can muster, all the way up!
As a person of Turkish descent, the thing I find problematic about this game is that none of the areas are named after real locations and landmarks in Istanbul. I would say that the homogeneity of the city that one creates is symptomatic of orientalism. Would anyone create a game called "Paris" and then have the city represented by a random assortment of bistros and art galleries? You'd have named districts at least. The message here is that no one knows what's actually in Istanbul and no one cares. The designers of "A Few Acres of Snow" had no problems insisting that I, as a player, learn a lot more about the geography of North America than I used to, but why is it too much to ask a Westerner to know that the "Sultan's Palace" is Topkapı Palace, the "Great Mosque" is the Sultan Ahmet Mosque and "The Fountain" is most likely the German Fountain. Would it detract from the experience so much?
That's actually a really interesting point. I think I'd actually love to have a copy of Istanbul that's had everything renamed to fit that style. It does seem kind of weird how some board games don't exactly trust their audience to pay attention, huh?
The absolute gall to tell someone that their entire culture doesn't matter except as pretty pictures for your culture's board games is unbelievable. It's not about being a victim or being a member of a certain society or anything like that, it's just about not being a shithead to the people you share the planet with. You should work on that.
Why are people so butthurt about his observation about the depiction (or lack of depiction) of women in the game? It's not like he carped on about it for the whole review. To me it was an interesting aside at the end of the video. There's every chance I'll use the end of this video, and the section about the depiction of Middle Eastern cultures, to teach my year 12 English students about representation and about different reading practices.
Loved the digression on Orientalism, but have to admit I found myself wondering how avoidable something at least resembling it will be in board games. If we're not talking about something densely narrative like an RPG, won't the thematic element in a game (whatever it is) typically be pretty cartoonish & iconic? It's not as though the characters represented in Resistance: Avalon or Bang! or Dead of Winter are multifaceted personalities with rich inner lives. Obviously we expect the publisher not to traffic in anything patently offensive, but when you're creating something that's meant to function as a field for the player to project a narrative on, rather than a self contained story, doesn't that in some sense entail limiting yourself to, if not "stereotypes," loose archetypes?
I agree with you. It's not really something that can be avoided. Did anyone else noticed the veiled jab at 5 Tribes "there's no genies anywhere"? I thought those genies were a cool element in the game. It's like someone complaining about Medivalism and how there always dragons in mediaval games.
Well, I think the gender equity stuff (which they're certainly right about, even after you cut the devs whatever amount of slack is appropriate for a game about medieval commerce) is distinct from the analysis of Orientalism. Which, again, I absolutely agree is important to think about & discuss-I just doubt it makes sense to hold lighthearted games to the same standard we'd apply to an academic anthropology text. Games tend to romanticize or oversimplify the scenarios they draw on-whether they're from the developer's own cultural tradition or another-because, well, they're games. My litmus test is: "does this feel degrading or disrespectful?" not "is this an accurate, naturalistic historical portrayal?'
Niall Burton In this game, there isn't really Orientalism (with the exception of the kebab shop expansion). If this game had camels instead of assistants, and one of the commodities was turbans, THEN it would fall foul of Orientalism.
Excellent review and comments on orientalism and gender depiction in the game. Well thought out, and something that is regularly glossed over. It is important to consider all perspectives when we depict images of other cultures, as well as historical biases that may influence how we see something. As an aside, I'm really upset people are calling this "being political" and "political correctness". Since when is showing concern about other people, groups, and cultures equated with "being political"? Can't he just be a historically- minded guy, encouraging us all to view this, and other games, through different lenses? Sounds good to me :)
Because it's often people jumping to the defense of people who haven't been offended or asked to be defended. Painting them as victims when they don't care and are not as thin-skinned as you'd paint them is insulting and patronizing.
So I recently bought this game after watching this review and I love it, thank you for getting me back into playing board games. I'm going to try and convince some friends to play it on a livestream
I'm so late to the boardgame scene, but I purchased both Istanbul and Concordia based on Quinn's recommendations and was not disappointed in either case. Both are really good. However...I think Istanbul is the more entertaining proposition. That movement/action mechanic is just the best!
I love Istanbul, but have only played in the app. Definitely want to pick up a physics copy. I have not played Concordia yet, need to seek that one out.
This game is pretty much perfect. It's simple and fast, but has enough thinking ahead strategy and interaction between players to remain interesting after a lot of games. In terms of theme, almost every Euro game I own has a theme that feels non essential to the game. Some more than others. We could put Istanbul in Seattle, and slightly redesign the game to involve running errands on a Saturday. Not sure anyone but the young, naive or foolish would think the game teaches you anything about Istanbul. Just like watching the TV show CSI, doesn't prepare you for a career in forensics.
Excellent review. I really appreciate that this video goes into the depiction of Istanbul society and also the lack of representation of women ( I'm also glad you guys mentioned the race/gender depictions in the Conan review as well).
I appreciate the aside that is considering representation in games. I actually found it to be fair and well considered as opposed to condescending and trite. I think it's important that we consider how we render other people down in to limiting archetypes. Like board games, I see this exercise as an opportunity for self-improvement if nothing else.
You continue to show why you all are among my favourite reviewers, and not just because Concordia is one of my favourite games. Matt's piece he did that talked about the loss of his culture at the hands of colonization still comes to mind every time I see stupid Irish stereotypes in media. Thank you for continuing to raise the bar.
We are poor, They are not! They got money, And we got TWAT! Let's rise up against the rich, BURN THEIR HOUSES TO THE GROUND! Let's rise up against the rich, And put their heads on pikes in toooooooown!
WOOOOOW. It is SO FRIGGIN COOL that you considered to include a discussion on Orientalism regarding the theme. These kind of details is why SUSD is the best board game review channel.
Definitely! At the very least, I consider it rude as all hell. I don't want you breathing your nasty mouth vapor all over. But Quinns said he invited him to do that, so... /shrug
The impression I got from the subtitle was that, since vaping indoors was requested, it was normally prohibited (or at least less common) at his game nights (at least the ones being filmed, visibility, you know). The exception that proves the rule.
Wow, that Baki piece was FANTASTIC, and ridiculously relevant in this conversation. The depiction of women too, great catch! How on god's sexism-aware Europe did this thing pass the first QC of art? It requires a certain amount of vision, and narrative prowess, to incorporate these into a only-a-boardgame-ffs review. Seriously, great content, SUSD.
I love the Baki cameo! I'd seen him at the table in some of your other reviews, it blows my mind that you're friends. I met him a few times, years ago in Stockholm. He was always so interesting to talk to. Ask him if he remembers the Canadian Liam, and his friend Evan (me). :)
I liked the little aside about orientalism and I hope you do more like it in future videos (maybe only every now and then), but I think its placement could have been better. Perhaps at the end, either before or after the advertisement for the SUSD website. It depends on context and content though, so one hard and fast rule may not be appropriate.
I never wanna play Istanbul without the coffee expansion. This plus the special rule to use one color of workers to be used by anybody make the game so much more interactive and reactive
i really enjoyed the video, and i really enjoy playing istanbul. It gets more interesting and interactive playing with more players than only my roommate, because like 3-4 turns before the game ends, we both know who is going to win, this does not apply to a larger ammount of players
I just wanted to voice my support for SU&SD not only reviewing a game with a thorough overview of the game itself and how it is to play, but also the important issues that we as boardgamers and responsible worldly citizens *need* to be aware of and reflect on. Keep up the stellar work, guys!
yes, games can and should aspire to the high standards of art in other media. Those that succeed should be celebrated, and those that fail should be used to inspire others to fix those mistakes.
Other media do no better, just look at how women and minorities are portrayed in movies/television/magazines. I do believe that boardgames have both the capacity to do so and should strive to achieve much higher standards than other media.
Ewan Jones obviously the average is pretty depressing. But there is no doubt that there are books and movies and video games that are extremely artful in their takes on important topics. It's not hard to find examples because they are everywhere. But where are the board games that do this? If you have any examples Ewan, I'd be excited to try them. I feel like Magic the Gathering takes this very seriously. It has about 23 years of history of male/female parity. But as it has turned to a more story-based game, they have had some severe growing pains, including their recent tragic mistakes with Indian culture in the newest set.
I hear Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn has some of the better portrayal in terms of artwork of female "summoners". I've never played it or really looked at the cards in detail, so I couldn't say for certain myself. I think the approach that a lot of boardgames take currently (more to do with historical events/geographic locations like Istanbul for example) is to simplify the subject to such a degree or to use the theme so lightly as to make it more of a vague reference than actually tackling the subject properly. Therefore publishers and designers can just use the loose connection as both an escape from blame whilst still exploiting the intrest in the theme. Using a fictional universe also has the same effect, and it's an excuse the video games industry is a lot more versed in using. By using a fantasy theme where a race of savages just so happen to be black, the designers can always fall back on the excuse that "that's just the way things are in that universe". Video games publishers are also much savvier in using their own fans to defend their game rather than having to ever own up to anything themselves. But that's just my "Whiney SJW" opinion, so what do I know...
Ewan Jones Can confirm that Ashes is a great, equitable game when it comes to gender representation. The art is done by Fernanda Suarez (same as Dead of Winter), and she is phenomenally talented. Of the 6 Phoenixborn in the core set, 4 are women and 0 are hypersexualized. I think it's kind of lame to be one of those guys who says "My wife really appreciated the representation!" because it makes it sound like I only support it to keep them nagging wimminz of my back, but the fact is she does appreciate it, and so do I. I really appreciate that the art is not like the art in Epic, or so many other games where women aren't characters like men are, and are instead skin-coloured chassis to carry boobs around on.
Played a game of Istanbul today and really enjoyed myself. I do wish that I had had the introduction to the game that this video offers. While silly at times it would have given me a much better feel for the games rich theme and gameplay motivations.
I didn't understand the constant comparison with Concordia. Unless the games are virtually the same, the overpraising of Concordia in an Istanbul review seems unfair. BOTH games are allowed to be great. If in your opinion one is better than the other, admire it all you want in a separate video about the game so that it doesn't interfere with this one. As far as I can tell, this is like comparing apples to oranges and telling everyone they should get apples because its the one you like more when both are perfectly fine.
I saw Wingspan's review and Quinn recommended Istanbul as a better engine building board game. So came here to see the original review for Istanbul aaaaaaaaand, it's a glowing review of Concordia... 😑 What games are you planning on recommending to me in your Concordia review Quinn??
Best opening sequence since Porta Nigra, maybe even better! And a great review. I like Istanbul just as the base game, one of my favourite sub-hour games
I downloaded the app, didn't like the first couple of games, then I had an epiphany and understood. It's now on my wishlist and I think it would perfectly fit my gaming group.
I very much enjoy Istanbul, but it definitely is a little intimidating to the casual player because there's so much going on at once. My recommendation is to put a cookie at each seat to tide them over while you explain to that one person for the fifth time how to get jewelry. Once they've got a couple rounds under their belt, all concerns melt away as you intently stare at the board, head abuzz with thoughts of what riches you'll procure next.
I reallyy appreciate that you guys always go through the steps to discuss a games ability to portray diversity, and calling them out when they don't meet their mark
I really enjoyed the decision to talk about orientalism in this review. I also appreciate how you guys touch on representation in your reviews, acknowledging that the industry can do a better job of reaching a diversity of players.
I really appreciate SU&SD for calling out issues of inclusion and representation in board games! It not only communicates to game creators that these things matter to gamers, it also tells potential gamers who don't happen to be white or male that they are welcome in the gaming community. Regardless of all of the angry commenters ranting about SJW's, I, for one care about social justice and it has a place in every aspect of my life, including my board games.
It was better before they changed it. Back in my day, we didn't have any of this "Ottoman" stuff. We had the Byzantine Empire and the color purple and the grim knowledge that Rome would never return to her former glory, and we *liked it* that way gosh darnit!
....is this insistent and persistent system if assistants whereby your assistants are either existent and then the system is non-existent or your assistants are consistently disparate and distant......at which point you only have yourself to blame
I've bought board games simply because of inclusion. Path of Light and Shadow, Ashes, The Grimm Forest. Though not the biggest of deals, still quite refreshing to see and for me, quite easy to back and support!
In this episode, Quinns talkes about how good Concordia is.
I don't blame him, it's a really good game. Out of all of my games, I don't think I will ever sell it.
So SU&SD is talking about a eurogame?
I needed to transcribe this.
"The only thing in your way - very simply - is this... Insistent and persistent system of assistants. Whereby your assistants are either existent, and then the system is non-existent, or your assistants are consistently disparate and distant at which point you've only got yourself to blame. Haven't you?"
I wonder how many takes this took.
I was half expecting him to rap it.
@@timicoens1803 can we get a rhymes highlighted video?
@@cellohowslife5817 I have no idea what you want, but here's the timestamp 7:32. :3
This game used to be called Constantinople before they changed the name.
That's nobody's business but the Turks though
I wish we could go back.
But if you got a gal in Constantinople will she be waiting in Istambol?
Too soon, man, too soon.
@the walkin dude See above.
For me Concordia became boring after 5 plays, and Istambul did not. Istanbul is much more dynamic and controllable (even with funny neutral trader variant). And it's like 30-40 minutes long. I was avoiding Istanbul for a few years and I was WRONG. And I LOVE heavy gaming, for the record... You can retheme Istambul for Star Wars and you would have great pick up n deliver game, with race element, crew sending and collecting, upgrading the ship and your hero, dealing with smugglers, gambling in Casino. Concordia is more dry and mechanical than any Knizia's game. And Herr Doctor liked it dry.... Anyway, great review as always! :)
Always nice when you look up reviews for a game and find out Shut Up and Sit Down has covered it.
As a Turk born in Istanbul who owns the game and appreciates obscure Akira references, I approve this video. (For a small bahşiş *cough* donation)
There's nothing obscure about Akira
@@thelastmotel different years I guess
Paul petting the cactus is probably the funniest thing I've seen today
"Do you want to play some Netrunner?"
"No"
ok after that lie how can I believe anything you ever say
it was "With you? No." though.
Still unbelievable, considering Quinns always wins, ALWAYS.
sounds fun! i might pick it up. Thanks for pointing out the gender disparity btw. Slightly more than half of my gaming friends are women and it's really frustrating when you get 8 of us together to play, and 6 of us are disappointment because there are only 2 female characters you can play as. Or worse, when I want to play a game with my 13 year old daughter, and the only women are the old one and the boob one.
I love how SUSD always incorporates the "between the lines" stuff in our hobby. Games, just like other media, have hidden messages. It's important to be aware of them and without SUSD's coverage, I'd be oblivious to most, if not all, of it.
Exactly! It's not that the developers are pushing some secret political agenda, it's that humans have opinions, even if we're unaware of them, and those opinions make it into our media. We're not imagining secret meanings in board games, we're just trying to figure out what sources went into it.
:)
Wow Ryutekken. Human-ing is hard for you, huh?
I used to be a tree hugging hippie. After playing one game of Instanbul, I canceled my membership to Sierra Club, favorited Info Wars in my browser, and joined the GOP. Perhaps not a hidden message, but somehow, subliminally, it flipped my polarity. Beware!
Some poor fragile blokes think that raising awareness of 'potentially problematic' gender-related design (whether it's intentional or not) is an elitist perspective.
If you worry about these kind of discussions being used to make you feel like a worse human being, maybe that's the point. If even considering the issue somehow disrupts the fun you have playing board games, maybe you actually do need to be a better human being, eh?
(yes, the perspective is lovely from up on this horse, thanks for asking)
That was one of the most interesting reviews they've done.
0:27 ... ASMR ruined. Thanks Paul.
I immediately searched "boardgame ASMR" and confirmed that is a real thing.
it certainly is, and much needed.
This is probably the most insightful and informative board game review I've ever seen. SU&SD at its best. Thank you Quinns.
21:04 - please put the Concordia box lid on the right way! I don't know how a board gamer can live with knowing the box lid is on incorrectly relative to the box base. That's like putting your DVD's or books away sometimes normally and sometimes upside down or worse - with the label facing inwards! Chaos!
Every now and then I step away from SU&SD and when I return, I get renewed by the quality and comraderie of these reviews. Info, laughs, truth, and opinion. All packaged neatly for our consumption. As many thumbs as I can muster, all the way up!
7:34 ....damn...
"Not even at night?" haha. Also enjoyed Quinn's emerging from his tree hiding place as he talked about what an idiot he is.
The "assistant" poetry, the Akira references... brill!
As a person of Turkish descent, the thing I find problematic about this game is that none of the areas are named after real locations and landmarks in Istanbul. I would say that the homogeneity of the city that one creates is symptomatic of orientalism. Would anyone create a game called "Paris" and then have the city represented by a random assortment of bistros and art galleries? You'd have named districts at least. The message here is that no one knows what's actually in Istanbul and no one cares. The designers of "A Few Acres of Snow" had no problems insisting that I, as a player, learn a lot more about the geography of North America than I used to, but why is it too much to ask a Westerner to know that the "Sultan's Palace" is Topkapı Palace, the "Great Mosque" is the Sultan Ahmet Mosque and "The Fountain" is most likely the German Fountain. Would it detract from the experience so much?
That's actually a really interesting point. I think I'd actually love to have a copy of Istanbul that's had everything renamed to fit that style. It does seem kind of weird how some board games don't exactly trust their audience to pay attention, huh?
Then set the game in London
Take an interest or don't bother. My culture is not a "theme".
No. In fact, that exact thought had occurred to me. The Bazaar would be a much better name.
The absolute gall to tell someone that their entire culture doesn't matter except as pretty pictures for your culture's board games is unbelievable. It's not about being a victim or being a member of a certain society or anything like that, it's just about not being a shithead to the people you share the planet with. You should work on that.
Why are people so butthurt about his observation about the depiction (or lack of depiction) of women in the game? It's not like he carped on about it for the whole review. To me it was an interesting aside at the end of the video.
There's every chance I'll use the end of this video, and the section about the depiction of Middle Eastern cultures, to teach my year 12 English students about representation and about different reading practices.
Your videos keep getting better and funnier I love it
You were throwin' down some wicked flow at 7:30.
One of your best reviews! Thanks!
Argh! Quins was right outside my workplace window and I missed him!
I keep coming back to this video for the Akira joke, which causes me to painfully attempt to stifle laughter at work.
1:48 NO PAUL!! DON'T DO IT!! YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR!! 🤣🤣🤣
You've done Istanbul, you've done Concordia, now you need to review the other 2014 Spiel Des Jarhe nominee, Rokoko!
And to address the gender issue in Istanbul, Rokoko also has women in it ;) Although thinking of this, all the workers are male.
edit: I meant "Kennerspiel des Jahres". My German is a little rusty, lol.
4 years later - "It is complete"
Loved the digression on Orientalism, but have to admit I found myself wondering how avoidable something at least resembling it will be in board games. If we're not talking about something densely narrative like an RPG, won't the thematic element in a game (whatever it is) typically be pretty cartoonish & iconic? It's not as though the characters represented in Resistance: Avalon or Bang! or Dead of Winter are multifaceted personalities with rich inner lives. Obviously we expect the publisher not to traffic in anything patently offensive, but when you're creating something that's meant to function as a field for the player to project a narrative on, rather than a self contained story, doesn't that in some sense entail limiting yourself to, if not "stereotypes," loose archetypes?
I agree with you. It's not really something that can be avoided. Did anyone else noticed the veiled jab at 5 Tribes "there's no genies anywhere"? I thought those genies were a cool element in the game. It's like someone complaining about Medivalism and how there always dragons in mediaval games.
Niall Burton
No, it would be closer to someone complaining about how a Medieval game has literally no mention of women in the peasantry or nobility.
Well, I think the gender equity stuff (which they're certainly right about, even after you cut the devs whatever amount of slack is appropriate for a game about medieval commerce) is distinct from the analysis of Orientalism. Which, again, I absolutely agree is important to think about & discuss-I just doubt it makes sense to hold lighthearted games to the same standard we'd apply to an academic anthropology text. Games tend to romanticize or oversimplify the scenarios they draw on-whether they're from the developer's own cultural tradition or another-because, well, they're games. My litmus test is: "does this feel degrading or disrespectful?" not "is this an accurate, naturalistic historical portrayal?'
Adderkleet Not really, I'm not talking about the 82 men vs 0 women. I'm talking about the percieved Orientalism, which doesn't make sense.
Niall Burton In this game, there isn't really Orientalism (with the exception of the kebab shop expansion).
If this game had camels instead of assistants, and one of the commodities was turbans, THEN it would fall foul of Orientalism.
Excellent review and comments on orientalism and gender depiction in the game. Well thought out, and something that is regularly glossed over. It is important to consider all perspectives when we depict images of other cultures, as well as historical biases that may influence how we see something. As an aside, I'm really upset people are calling this "being political" and "political correctness". Since when is showing concern about other people, groups, and cultures equated with "being political"? Can't he just be a historically- minded guy, encouraging us all to view this, and other games, through different lenses? Sounds good to me :)
Because it's often people jumping to the defense of people who haven't been offended or asked to be defended. Painting them as victims when they don't care and are not as thin-skinned as you'd paint them is insulting and patronizing.
This is a BRILLIANT review. I want you to review everything i want to purchase
The Paranoia Agent recommend after hammering in the Akira references really gave me the shot of espresso I needed to finish the video.
So I recently bought this game after watching this review and I love it, thank you for getting me back into playing board games. I'm going to try and convince some friends to play it on a livestream
I'm so late to the boardgame scene, but I purchased both Istanbul and Concordia based on Quinn's recommendations and was not disappointed in either case. Both are really good. However...I think Istanbul is the more entertaining proposition. That movement/action mechanic is just the best!
One of the best episodes ever. Thank you!
Really nice and funny review as allways. I did put this on my "games to get" list. Thank you.
very very good, the context, brilliant
I love Istanbul, but have only played in the app. Definitely want to pick up a physics copy. I have not played Concordia yet, need to seek that one out.
What an amazing episode!
This game is pretty much perfect. It's simple and fast, but has enough thinking ahead strategy and interaction between players to remain interesting after a lot of games. In terms of theme, almost every Euro game I own has a theme that feels non essential to the game. Some more than others. We could put Istanbul in Seattle, and slightly redesign the game to involve running errands on a Saturday. Not sure anyone but the young, naive or foolish would think the game teaches you anything about Istanbul. Just like watching the TV show CSI, doesn't prepare you for a career in forensics.
Excellent review. I really appreciate that this video goes into the depiction of Istanbul society and also the lack of representation of women ( I'm also glad you guys mentioned the race/gender depictions in the Conan review as well).
I died at the completely hilarious Akira reference.
I appreciate the part on orientalism and you noticing the lack of women. thank you very much
I second the Paranoia Agent recommendation. Wonderful bit of work, delightfully disturbing.
"Not even at night."
"No."
😂😂
Akira reference
Oh wait, looks like I need to watch Paranoia Agent lol
Wow what a whopper of a review! Very funny and I really loved the extra knowledge blasts about the theme etc. Great stuff guys :)
7:32 That was impressive.
I appreciate the aside that is considering representation in games. I actually found it to be fair and well considered as opposed to condescending and trite.
I think it's important that we consider how we render other people down in to limiting archetypes. Like board games, I see this exercise as an opportunity for self-improvement if nothing else.
You continue to show why you all are among my favourite reviewers, and not just because Concordia is one of my favourite games. Matt's piece he did that talked about the loss of his culture at the hands of colonization still comes to mind every time I see stupid Irish stereotypes in media. Thank you for continuing to raise the bar.
Played with both expansions two weeks ago and can confirm that its one too much. Otherwise, it's a really great game.
2:15 Did you just say "late stage capitalism"
#UnitingTheProletariat
#SeizingTheMeansOfProduction
a specter is haunting Istanbul...
I love that he made that comment/reference!
We are poor,
They are not!
They got money,
And we got TWAT!
Let's rise up against the rich,
BURN THEIR HOUSES TO THE GROUND!
Let's rise up against the rich,
And put their heads on pikes in toooooooown!
WOOOOOW. It is SO FRIGGIN COOL that you considered to include a discussion on Orientalism regarding the theme. These kind of details is why SUSD is the best board game review channel.
Man if I were playing and someone was vaping at the table, table flips would be instant.
Definitely! At the very least, I consider it rude as all hell. I don't want you breathing your nasty mouth vapor all over.
But Quinns said he invited him to do that, so... /shrug
The impression I got from the subtitle was that, since vaping indoors was requested, it was normally prohibited (or at least less common) at his game nights (at least the ones being filmed, visibility, you know).
The exception that proves the rule.
Wow, that Baki piece was FANTASTIC, and ridiculously relevant in this conversation. The depiction of women too, great catch! How on god's sexism-aware Europe did this thing pass the first QC of art?
It requires a certain amount of vision, and narrative prowess, to incorporate these into a only-a-boardgame-ffs review. Seriously, great content, SUSD.
Liked for the interview with Baki!
I love the Baki cameo! I'd seen him at the table in some of your other reviews, it blows my mind that you're friends. I met him a few times, years ago in Stockholm. He was always so interesting to talk to. Ask him if he remembers the Canadian Liam, and his friend Evan (me). :)
I liked the little aside about orientalism and I hope you do more like it in future videos (maybe only every now and then), but I think its placement could have been better. Perhaps at the end, either before or after the advertisement for the SUSD website. It depends on context and content though, so one hard and fast rule may not be appropriate.
I never wanna play Istanbul without the coffee expansion. This plus the special rule to use one color of workers to be used by anybody make the game so much more interactive and reactive
i really enjoyed the video, and i really enjoy playing istanbul. It gets more interesting and interactive playing with more players than only my roommate, because like 3-4 turns before the game ends, we both know who is going to win, this does not apply to a larger ammount of players
TETSUO!!!
Edit: I posted this at 14:53 in the video. Wasn't even mad when Quinns beat me to it by including it in the video.
7:31 is likely my favorite SUSD moment ever. . . :) I'm sure that took at least two practice runs.
I really appreciate you capacity of put Akira references in a video about a game about a Turkish city.
I really enjoyed Paranoia Agent. Must be a year or so ago that I watched it?
I also have the Akira DVD but I haven't watched it yet XD
I just wanted to voice my support for SU&SD not only reviewing a game with a thorough overview of the game itself and how it is to play, but also the important issues that we as boardgamers and responsible worldly citizens *need* to be aware of and reflect on. Keep up the stellar work, guys!
yes, games can and should aspire to the high standards of art in other media. Those that succeed should be celebrated, and those that fail should be used to inspire others to fix those mistakes.
Other media do no better, just look at how women and minorities are portrayed in movies/television/magazines. I do believe that boardgames have both the capacity to do so and should strive to achieve much higher standards than other media.
Ewan Jones obviously the average is pretty depressing. But there is no doubt that there are books and movies and video games that are extremely artful in their takes on important topics. It's not hard to find examples because they are everywhere.
But where are the board games that do this?
If you have any examples Ewan, I'd be excited to try them.
I feel like Magic the Gathering takes this very seriously. It has about 23 years of history of male/female parity. But as it has turned to a more story-based game, they have had some severe growing pains, including their recent tragic mistakes with Indian culture in the newest set.
I hear Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn has some of the better portrayal in terms of artwork of female "summoners". I've never played it or really looked at the cards in detail, so I couldn't say for certain myself.
I think the approach that a lot of boardgames take currently (more to do with historical events/geographic locations like Istanbul for example) is to simplify the subject to such a degree or to use the theme so lightly as to make it more of a vague reference than actually tackling the subject properly. Therefore publishers and designers can just use the loose connection as both an escape from blame whilst still exploiting the intrest in the theme.
Using a fictional universe also has the same effect, and it's an excuse the video games industry is a lot more versed in using. By using a fantasy theme where a race of savages just so happen to be black, the designers can always fall back on the excuse that "that's just the way things are in that universe". Video games publishers are also much savvier in using their own fans to defend their game rather than having to ever own up to anything themselves.
But that's just my "Whiney SJW" opinion, so what do I know...
Ewan Jones Can confirm that Ashes is a great, equitable game when it comes to gender representation. The art is done by Fernanda Suarez (same as Dead of Winter), and she is phenomenally talented. Of the 6 Phoenixborn in the core set, 4 are women and 0 are hypersexualized. I think it's kind of lame to be one of those guys who says "My wife really appreciated the representation!" because it makes it sound like I only support it to keep them nagging wimminz of my back, but the fact is she does appreciate it, and so do I. I really appreciate that the art is not like the art in Epic, or so many other games where women aren't characters like men are, and are instead skin-coloured chassis to carry boobs around on.
That was really really good. Thanks Quins
It feels strange knowing that Quinns came to my Uni, did not expect to see it here.
Played a game of Istanbul today and really enjoyed myself. I do wish that I had had the introduction to the game that this video offers. While silly at times it would have given me a much better feel for the games rich theme and gameplay motivations.
I didn't know I could appreciate Shut Up & Sit Down any more than I already do... and then Akira references and Paranoia Agent???
20:25 that was exactly your intent, his smile says that it was. Well played.
Excellent, excellent review, (the second best of all time after Paul's review of Azul). More sociology and more obscure anime references please
I didn't understand the constant comparison with Concordia. Unless the games are virtually the same, the overpraising of Concordia in an Istanbul review seems unfair. BOTH games are allowed to be great. If in your opinion one is better than the other, admire it all you want in a separate video about the game so that it doesn't interfere with this one. As far as I can tell, this is like comparing apples to oranges and telling everyone they should get apples because its the one you like more when both are perfectly fine.
I saw Wingspan's review and Quinn recommended Istanbul as a better engine building board game. So came here to see the original review for Istanbul aaaaaaaaand, it's a glowing review of Concordia... 😑
What games are you planning on recommending to me in your Concordia review Quinn??
Wingspan. This is how we get our viewer numbers up.
This is a really good review of Concordia!
when I get depressed, I just watch old videos of Quinns and life is good again.
Wonderful digressions. Big fan here!
Best opening sequence since Porta Nigra, maybe even better! And a great review. I like Istanbul just as the base game, one of my favourite sub-hour games
Hahah. Good review with excellent skits yet also learning about orientalism. Well done.
Adding all the expansions and bits turned this into a giant clusterfuck
On the assistants bit quinns, how many takes? : )
haha i lost it when the board sounded like it was giving birth.
I downloaded the app, didn't like the first couple of games, then I had an epiphany and understood. It's now on my wishlist and I think it would perfectly fit my gaming group.
I very much enjoy Istanbul, but it definitely is a little intimidating to the casual player because there's so much going on at once. My recommendation is to put a cookie at each seat to tide them over while you explain to that one person for the fifth time how to get jewelry. Once they've got a couple rounds under their belt, all concerns melt away as you intently stare at the board, head abuzz with thoughts of what riches you'll procure next.
Me: Listens calmly to a review of a chill game...
Quinns: blah blah blah...
Quinns: *Insane, incohereant screams of a dying boar*!!!!!!!
I reallyy appreciate that you guys always go through the steps to discuss a games ability to portray diversity, and calling them out when they don't meet their mark
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
(A drunk Scandinavian stumbles over) Well, we called it Miklagard!
That's nobody's business but the Turks'.
I really enjoyed the decision to talk about orientalism in this review. I also appreciate how you guys touch on representation in your reviews, acknowledging that the industry can do a better job of reaching a diversity of players.
Pauses video at 18:00 to look for trailer of Satoshi Kon's "Paranoia Agent"...
Interesting, how SUSD reviews weave in such interesting tidbits! ;-)
I really appreciate SU&SD for calling out issues of inclusion and representation in board games! It not only communicates to game creators that these things matter to gamers, it also tells potential gamers who don't happen to be white or male that they are welcome in the gaming community. Regardless of all of the angry commenters ranting about SJW's, I, for one care about social justice and it has a place in every aspect of my life, including my board games.
Fantastic. Thanks for covering orientalism and pointing out the lack of women, bizzarre/bazaar.
I liked the original Constantinople better.
Right? Justinian didn't die for this.
To be fair though, İstanbul rolls of the tongue easier than Κωνσταντινούπολις. The vowels in it seem to more harmonic in a way of speaking too.
It was better before they changed it. Back in my day, we didn't have any of this "Ottoman" stuff. We had the Byzantine Empire and the color purple and the grim knowledge that Rome would never return to her former glory, and we *liked it* that way gosh darnit!
Well to be fair even old New York was once New Amsterdam. Why they changed it? I can't say.
People just liked it better that way.
This video was a journey.
1:20 - what’s that music?
....is this insistent and persistent system if assistants whereby your assistants are either existent and then the system is non-existent or your assistants are consistently disparate and distant......at which point you only have yourself to blame
Glad I watched this video just for that interview
I love that you guys are aware of the importance of representation. It’s nice to have it addressed.
...But I like Istanbul better than Concordia.
Oh hey I might buy... Wait 82:0? Really? Okay how much is Concordia?
Paranoia Agent. Quinns back at it again with the supreme taste!
The 'Arabian Nights' bit was well played
I've bought board games simply because of inclusion. Path of Light and Shadow, Ashes, The Grimm Forest. Though not the biggest of deals, still quite refreshing to see and for me, quite easy to back and support!