Is THIS the FUTURE OF HI-FI? (I think it might be)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- 👉🏻 This episode is brought to you by AudioQuest:
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🎥 Camera: Olaf von Voss
🎬 Editor: John Darko
🕺🏻 Motion GFX: John Darko
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0:00 Intro
1:06 Steps 1 - 5
5:29 Streaming software
7:45 Steps 6 - 7
10:52 Steps 8 - 10
14:01 What about hi-res? What about headphones?
17:55 The Sonos connection
📖 Further reading...
Future-Fi Now!
darko.audio/2017/03/future-fi...
📺 Further watching...
Hi-res audio is much ado about not very much (for most people)
darko.audio/2021/07/hi-res-au...
🎧 Further listening...
Podcast #39 - Five years of Future-Fi!
darko.audio/2022/06/podcast-3...
#futurefi #hifi #future
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The problem with "future-fi" is that it's not future-proof. Upgrading is basically ditching your entire system. At once. Who can afford to replace a complete high-end system at the same time? I certainly can't.
Yeah and with hardware warranty only being a year or two it's a bit like putting all your eggs in one basket
@@B2video full discrete anchor in the future used market
I agree with this. In my own experience I have lots of bricks sitting around because there future fi functions no long work. This has actually moved me back to separates. But that's not to say I don't appreciate future fi, I really do! Manufacturer's need to figure out a way to future proof there products, or at least we need a standard time frame of usability? I couldn't imagine scraping everything including my speakers, I just work to hard for my cash.
Here in Australia I really doubt I can get any of this stuff serviced in a few years if something goes wrong
My issue is that components fail. With separates you can pull the failed piece out of the chain and replace. Sure a pair of floating speakers sounds nice but I don't think I'd trade the ability to surgically cut out one piece or another in the name of simplicity.
Loving how all who are interested in separates were asked to not watch but you all stayed and commented.
Arcam SA-30 owner here. Does everything on your list (Class G amplification+streamer+dac+HDMI+MM/MC Phono+Dirac+Small and compact chassis). I can't seem to understand why this amazing little powerhouse amp isn't talked about much more by reviewers.
I have the sa30 and it was a nightmare trying to find any independent reviews on it. I’ve spent a few weeks with it now and it’s a keeper. I heard Arcam don’t send out review samples even though they have nothing to worry about.
I think the main argument against something like this, is that you lock yourself into the technology that exists at the time of purchase, with no way to make easy changes as technology advances. High performance speakers and power amps made 25 years ago can still be perfectly valid, but concepts like streaming, or even network attached stored music didn't even exist until relatively recently. Companies like Quobuz, Tidal, and Roon weren't around a decade ago, so it seems crazy to lock your entire audio system into an ecosystem that may be the best option today, but who knows where it will be a decade down the road.
True. But you have to think that software upgrades (if they will do them) could provide a way to close the gap. My issue with these "all-in-one" solutions is that if something breaks you have to send back the whole, sometimes very heavy, speaker in "somewhere" for repair. Where will those repairs be done and how long will a company support them? I bought a perfectly good Samsung Blu-ray player at a considerable expense when Blu-ray was new. Samsung stopped supporting it with software upgrades after only 5 years, even though it was still working fine. More expensive - and still working - crap filling up our landfills. I'll never buy anything "Samsung" ever again.
Nearly all AIO speakers has an RCA analogue input and those will NEVER go away anywhere. So just like you said since the speaker and power amps don't really age that quickly when the streamer in these systems is outdated you simply buy a new stream and plug it in via the analogue input and it will still be good, it really is not different than a ground up component system made up of DAC streamer/amp/speaker because the DAC portion is still replaceable while the amp/speaker is bundled together. The only issue is the longevity of the power amp module and as long as that doesn't break AIO speakers will continue to work.
Fair point, given many of these devices are running on a propriety software platform, the commitment of the manufacturer to their software platform needs to be a real consideration in the purchasing decision. How to gauge this is a good question.
I am now effectively locked into the BluOS ecosystem for the foreseeable future. Not a problem for now but my product is now superseded and I expect there won't be any significant software updates from this point. Not that its a problem, device works just fine. Same deal for other network streamers I have in the house.
As examples, Spotify connect seems to be a fairly mature and robust mechanism and well supported. ROON is also a mature platform which is well supported by the developer. I don't think the issue will be with streaming sources or connectivity with streamers, but the ongoing support from a manufacturer of the software/firmware for their specific product. In theory, it shouldn't be an issue once the firmware is stable and mature. I've got a streamer here whose last software update was in 2017 and I expect it will continue to work just fine until the smoke finally escapes which could be decades.
But you are not locked in with vast majority of devices as they generally all have high performance DACs and ADCs on board and a good selection of digital and analogue inputs.
I use Roon and they have regular software up-date (simular to HP)and they offer a lifetime member chip meaning they are in for the long run.I use it for close to 7 years and did not encounter any serious problems. One has not to go all the way with Future hifi but I'm sure with the 10 evolution Darko presents they will be something suitable for everyone. I'm halfway there and pretty happy with my setup particularly since the cable salad has been minimized. Saves Money on cable and not much space is needed.
Super Future Fi is when we are all assimilated into the Borg, and don't have to worry about having our own equipment, or picking our own music, because the Borg will take care of it. However, I do believe that if one were to wish to know what songs were playing, one would have to be a member of the Borg's Patreon.
Wow. An absolutely fantastic summary of the evolution of high-end audio with 10 specific steps. This is rather unique IMHO. Thanks John!
I'm surprised NAD C-series (ie: C368, C399, etc...) doesn't receive more consideration. They are all-in-one units with modularity by having the ability to add expansion cards to grow their functionality while keeping them all-in-one units. This fits well into "future proofing" your system provided NAD continues to create additional modular cards for the C-series.
While watching this I kept thinking "everything old is new again" because this same drive is basically what we saw in the 1970's in stereo receivers. They became single box solutions (plus speakers) for the audio tech of the day. Most of the people into hi-fi went that route, and it was only the folks who craved a little extra performance that sought out extra boxes. The thing is stereo receivers are STILL doing this. Look at a humble product like the Onkyo TX-8270 stereo receiver ($600 USD), it has a lot of your "future fi" AND hi-res audio capability, plus you can listen to the radio lol.
My hesitation for an AIO solution is the speed that tech changes. Also is something breaks in a speaker based AIO you likely need to replace the entire thing. Passive speakers can last decades. Something like the Evo 150 or Naim Unity Atom is about as far down that path as I would go for a main hi end system.
My experience with studio monitors is the same as with most consumer electronics, hardly ever anything fails completelly or irreparably, usually when studio monitors break either someone plugged 110v monitor into 220v outlet and swapping the transformer fixes it. Or it's a capacitor, or resistor, very very rare that one of the complex chips inside fail. I eve usually fix my own monitors and I'm not even trained I. Soldering etc I just learned from TH-cam and I am taking in studio monitor from nearby studios and fixing them to resell, it's being lucrative so far.
Besides the electronics everything is the same as passive speakers, they are just as resilient. And you can just given them new life with a different amp as well. Last year got my hands on a guitar cube and it was horrible, a lot of hiss on the amp, no defect, just really bad. I pulled the amp out, added a cheap aliexpress Bluetooth amp and now I have what cost me 30$ Bluetooth speaker that my father uses frequently. Still doesn't sound good mind you, but that's a characteristic of how bad it always were...
Point is you can take them to a local electronic repair shop and they'll fix it usually very cheap.
Yes, agree. Just like a laptop, no screen, no system
Isn't that the point though? The future is always more expensive. With how fast things change now, it's expected to last less than 5 years before it's been replaced by newer and better. But is that the worst thing in the world? I don't personally think so. It's not that they won't work after 5 years. Just that better will be available. It's not like that isn't already the way things are going
That makes you a separates guy. You were supposed to leave at the beginning, you know. Even so, you make a good point.
This is why I’m probably just gonna get an analouge amp like a Rega and just get a separate DAC. I can’t afford to “keep up” with the latest and greatest. If I get this Rega Amp it’ll hopefully last me decades.
Hi John, love your videos as always. I work in hi-fi retail for Richer Sounds in Manchester, and having watched so many videos of yours over the years, we now often refer to integrated streaming amplifiers as “future-fi” as you’ve coined it, and even have a little future-fi section of the store too. So, thank you for that :)
Also, I think my favourite implementation of the active speaker formula has been the Dali C range of speakers such as the Rubicon 2C, where they have a separate box for you to connect your turntable to, for example, which then wirelessly streams to the speakers, and you can also get BluOS module for this for hi-res streaming, and even a HDMI module, which not only gives you TV connectivity, but also means you can use your Dali active speakers in surround sound too, should you want to. Unfortunately, no room correction yet though that I’m aware of, so still not quite perfect “future-fi”, but for me, the closest I’ve seen, and I definitely think that the Rubicon 8C can give the new KEF LS60 a good bit of competition.
Anyway, sorry for rambling, great work as always, and I look forward to the next one :)
I think a break out box, wired or wireless to the speakers, like a number of the Samsung tv's have is the way to go for the future. It can concentrate the cable clutter to the cabinet where it resides and and achieves maximum WAF.
Do not forget that many AV Receivers cover all this as well
The issue with an all-in-one speaker system is still cable management. By the time you add the power, Ethernet, HDMI, digital and phono cables, you have quite the mess out to the main speaker. Add to the fact that you may have to purchase longer cables for each of these to get the speakers placed correctly in your room. It seems the more viable solution for optimum speaker placement is a super integrated with DIRAC and just speaker cables to passive speakers.
Even for those of us who will forever be into separates, it is still interesting to see what is out there to perhaps recommend to our friends that might prefer an "all-in-one" solution, so thanks!
The problem is that this gives even more power to the Googles and Apples of this world. For a smaller manufacturer it's almost impossible to get certified for both Chromecast and Airplay2 for a moderately priced product. And I mean properly certified, not putting the right chips in and not having the right licences.
Good point. UPnP should be the way to go.
Brilliantly thought out video thankyou and keep up the great work 👍👍👍
This is AMAZING! I have always wanted to ask this question but I didn’t know how to word it. Thanks a bunch Darko team!
Great vid as always. My only problem with "dialling down the box count" is that the 1 box you are left with will eventually become obsolete; it would be cheaper to just upgrade the "technology" kit (streamer, and DAC), whereas the sound reproduction kit (amp and passive speaker) are much less likely to become obsolete? Interesting concepts though
Eeeeek!!! I'll be back to this video in 10 years(maybe). Off to my classic gear. Love your channel.
Great, great, great! Finally even I got an understanding of all that stuff. Thank you John.
Just came across your channel and wanted to say that i love the 2 videos I've watched so far. I'm a newbie to the audiophile world and have so much to learn.
To really Future Proof, you need an architecture which provides for modular boards that can be pulled out of an integrated solution, and new ones added, to provide for technology upgrades for network connectivity, amplification, DAC, streaming services, speaker technology. NAD claimed to do this in the past and now, but they only produced a small number of upgrade boards.
Being into separates I can still appreciate the technology that allows for an all in one concept.
I do own a Cambridge Evo for practicality and simplicity. Having said that, I love my vinyls and don’t mind getting up to change sides of my 45 rpm audiophile pressings after each 10 mins sides
True, same here. But can't you connect your turntable to a pair of those super integrated loudspeakers? I'd think so....
how's the EVO sound?
Great subject, glad I qualified to watch. I have been watching you for a long time, I really like your approach to hifi. Always a calm approach. Excellent. Thank you.
One of the few people on TH-cam that I can listen to as you simply talk to camera and spill the knowledge & thoughts
Makes sense but issue is when one of the components in either speaker fails and parts have been discontinued
Yes and more likely in the digital part of that. Analogue powered and active speakers can still be repaired 40 years on. Digital interfaces as short as 5 years after the original launch can't be had. In some high end models there may be places who have newly manufactured replacement parts. A display chip for an LCD panel on my speakers broke. The alternative replacement offered by one outfit costs more than the speakers sell as a pair second hand.
Problem is in the entry cost. Everything in one costs like everything. You can't buy it gradually. Of course you could buy a cheaper all-in-one and go higher. Still it seems much more expensive.
Nice video, good points and explanation, and I agree!
Exceptional Video! Thank you.
I thought you handled the separates people with respect and politeness. I heard they ended up at a pub and discussed mono blocks.
Funny thing is, a lot of active speakers take the mono block approach a step further; each driver has its own amplifier.
I have and love KEF LS50 W but you've got me thinking about the Navis again.
I hope streaming software future is Roon-less rather than manufacturer’s software-less. Roon is certainly one subscription I can live without. I could stomach one time 50 or even 100$/eur payment for software but surely not 120$/year for nothing.
@@CommanderGinyu Each to his own but my experience is very different. To be fair I do have three main systems and music in every other room so I guess fall in to the use case you describe, but I also find Roon's information and music curation software second to none, and it's control over every step of the replay pathway very helpful. Also I think it's music recommendation algorithm is far superior to any other I have used. It might not be for you guys but a scam it absolutely is not.
@@jimfarrell4635 I do not think it is a scam, just that it is too expensive for what it offers. It is more expensive than my HiFi music streaming service!?!
In my opinion subscription payment model is only acceptable for content and certainly not for marginal piece of software like Roon.
@@jimfarrell4635
Hi Jim!
Didn't Darko suggest this show was not for separates guys??
(I got sucked into the discussion nevertheless;-)
Send regards to Mrs MF
🎶🤫🎶
This was great,thanks!
Great Video! Keep up the Great Work!!!!
John, I'm totally with you on simplicity, minimal boxes and dumping hi rez audio. My vintage Linn amp (LK140) and pre-amp (Kolektor) stack are "about the same size" as a Naim Uniti Atom, with 2019 KEF LS 50 speakers and my iphone X / TH-cam Music paid service plugged in via a simple rca to mini cable. No external DAC or streamer needed. I am happy as a clam. And I hear lots of great $$$$ systems as a friend owns a local high end shop with Chord, Auralic, Bluesound, etc. I can't justify the extra expense for my ears and I've tried, trust me.
I love the idea of everything in one box. However, it also scares the hell out of me when repair parts are no longer available after warranty and we create lots of paperweights for those of us who do not suffer from upgrade fever.
You stated in the video that “not all powered speakers are active” which is true, but equally “not all active speakers are powered” ! I use a Linn Selekt DSM, which is a modular all in one, and a pair of Kudos Titan 505 speakers. My Selekt is configured with two stereo amplifier modules, each with its own “Katalyst” DAC, one dedicated to the bass and the other the treble. The Titans have external jumpers to bypass the internal passive crossover, allowing the amps to connect directly to the appropriate drivers.
Because when you remove the jumpers it’s a passive speaker where the crossover is bypassed. All passive speakers can be made active if you can build a external crossovers for each driver.
Interesting. I hope those Kudos outperforms Linn’s speakers which were the reason I jumped off their wagon.
I like this video! I am looking forward for the Focus10 review as it is their entry point. Thank you for the explanations given here.
Amazing video, thank you!!!
The last part: it's just a more expensive, better sounding, Sonos, is what might get people more onboard to good sound quality.
My sister, for instance, bought Kef LSX's, and she hates most speakers from an aesthetic POV. Now she 's over the moon, because she forgot how nice it is to have good quality music in her appartment, eventhough she just uses spotify connect.
It's the delta; it's miles bettter than what she had before.
Before she had a single Sonos speaker tucked away behind her couch. At some point she realized how annoying such a 'point source' actually is, if you want to listen 'for real'.
And the LSX's are a big step up from her POV, and, most importantly, she loves the (green) aesthetics + form factor.
Future fi is super appealing, but the major pitfall is software support. We've already seen Sonos burn their early adopters going from S1 to S2. This sort of software churn as streaming services and protocols phase in and out has huge potential to turn perfectly good all-in-one systems into e-waste if the manufacturer deems it necessary to drop software support. One of the amazing things about hi-fi has been the enormous forward compatibility, using equipment for years and even decades is common and they don't end up in a landfill if they stop receiving patches.
Kef did not update the software of the LS50 Wireless to the user experience of the mark II, Devialet could not support the cost of built in apps so discontinues control from a computer, leaving it an app on a mobile phone and external apps on a phone for steaming services.
BluOS proves to be superior and reliable overtime, still supporting upgrades for their gen 1 products that i have been using for the last 10 years
Love the beginning, that you let the separates leave. 👍 I like separates, but I think where you going.. and if I can find a speaker that has all and is future proof.
Novatron Cocktali Audio X-45.
It’s a preamp. ADAC, streamer, it's Roon ready, it’s got HDMI, a phono stage and it does have a headphone output. That’s step 5 and a half I guess as far as a part of a system that controls the passive loudspeakers concerns. Or is it step 4 and a half? Since the Power amp is lacking; it’s not an integrated amplifier. I’ve got the Audiophonics HPA S400 ET Power amp, which is an intrusion in the room, but a small one.
A very nice way to explain what devices run in a HiFi streaming network and how they can be related to each other.
This video can be very helpful for those who are on the fence of building a HiFi streaming network.
Very nice, educational and entertaining video, love it!
Amazing clarity in your step by step masterclass !! It really appears you were thinking to these changes over many years, and a lot of pieces of the puzzle have been put together so well.
As you said at the very end, Sonos somehow is/was years in advance on this process with streaming, active speakers, adding Subs, adding rear speakers, just with the app, with Trueplay being ( at least as a concept) the cherry on the pie.
Sonos is looking mainstream and its goal was probably to fit as many speakers in home as possible ( I own 14 of them) , but if some Sonos executive will whatch your video, I hope thy start thinking to a Sonos Pro line : something allowing their existing customer base to upgrade significantly 1 or 2 rooms in the house, without having to lose the easy multiroom configurations they have already, and all the different pieces they already own.
In my situation, I was tempted for my quite large living room to buy a pair of KEF Ls50+sub ( or now the LS60) , but I could't remove Sonos from my living room because of my wife , so I will end with too many objects in conflict for the same position .....
thanks for the fantastic video!!
Go away? Now, you rattled my curiosity. That’s why I stayed.
I’m glad there are options like these for those who want them. My take, I am not cramped for space as I have a room set aside for my system. I will always need an audio rack since I’ve always had a turntable in my setup. There’s no reason for me to not utilize the rest of my rack for other gear. I don’t want to be reliant on some company’s app to operate a piece of gear. If we are talking about a second system elsewhere in the house then future-fi is more applicable. John, check out an old video of ours, I think you’ll like it. Larvae - Exit Strategy.
This is an award wining segment!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So well done and explained. Fantastic job. WOW!!!!
How "disposable" is your Hi-Fi system? How long do you expect it to last? These are things that should be considered when selecting audio components. It's all good when everything is shiny and new. But as equipment ages, software becomes obsolete, the Wi-Fi becomes out of date, and software updates stop. Eventually, security updates stop and leave your network-connected products vulnerable to hacking. Kef stands by their $7000 LS60 with a 2-year electronics warranty. Sonos has a 1-year warranty on their products. If an active speaker malfunctions and the owner does not know the exact cause, EVERYTHING needs to be packed up and shipped out for repair. Who pays for that? You may say " Well, that's cool. Stereo equipment never breaks!" If that were true, the manufacturers would offer longer warranties.
I love simple audio systems. Your Future-Fi concept is a good one and integrated systems have been around since the beginning of Hi-Fi. From the ornate Hifi Consoles of the 1960s to the crazy "Rack Systems" of the 1990s to the active speakers of today. The trouble is, the more integrated the stereo becomes the less likely it is to last.
Well put, new technologies put an expiration date on components, why we can easily conect a 50 year old speaker to a new amp or vice versa
ya, the longevity of software is what's kept me away from that whole side of things. There are plenty of DACs that don't work anymore already. For digital I'm just doing iTunes from my Mac mini through the tv via hdmi and then aux-rca to my integrated amp, so that covers video and audio.
It’s a bit like the obsolescence of phones. I do worry about that. Hifi investment should be 10-15 years minimum
@@titntin5178 that's a really weird argument. Sure if your amp goes down you can't listen to anything, but you can deputize any amp at all and get back to listening. If one system in one of these super integrated speakers goes down, you're buying a whole new system, even if the drivers are fine, or the amp is fine, or...
In 2010 the power amplifier in my 1980 active speakers started to have problems. As repairs took longer and mean time to the next fault shorted I have looked for more recent replacements. When I sent the amp for repairs I unplug it from the base of the speaker and ship that. My 1990 active speakers have the electronics screwed into the base. Four screws and a couple of cables to unplug and I can ship that. Modern B&O 28, Emerge, Level had steaming modules and amps can can be removed by dealers and replaced, sent for repairs or upgraded if new steaming services become available or new connection protocols are needed.
This is less likely in a powered speaker system sub £500. If customers demand a more modular approach the manufacturers will supply it.
Darko, get the NAD M33 and the search stops. It’s the pinnacle of Future-Fi
John is so incredibly organized in his presentations. Love this channel. Comprehensive and engaging.
Superb knowledge
Hi, I sold last month my Devialet Phantom 1 system to go back for a streamer (cambridge CXN V2) + amplifier (Parasound Hint 6) + passive loudspeaker (B&W 705 signature) because I had every week an issue with my system and a full reboot needed. Sometimes it was a half an hour process. The best part of this change was the sound quality of this new/(old way) system. Just amazing how good it is.
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A pair of dumb powered speakers with a streamer like the Bluesound is ALL I need.
Really good video. One of the most informative I’ve watched in ages. This is from a guy that loves separates 😃. More of this type of progression posts
Good talk. Thanks John.
I respect and appreciate that you shared with us what was cooking in your mind for about five long years. An idea gives birth to technology, I believe and you've come up with a good one. Thumbs up!
At stage 10, if one thing breaks, you have to throw everything away.
Not really you always can repair. In general, HIFI is hardy and seldom breaks down at least what I experience in the last 52 years! The old rule applies to hifi as well if you buy cheap don't expect a very long life span. (exceptions can happen but not very often).
This has probably been my favorite video from you. I’ve really been thinking about getting something like the Auralic with a pair of active speakers. This would be in my main room and replace my Sonos set up.
Years ago, I had an Arcam amp, B&W speakers, CD player, tuner etc. After selling it all, I avoided getting back into the hifi market mostly due to the cost.
After watching your channel for a while, I purchased a pair of Kef LSX speakers plus a sub and they are perfect for me. Beautiful sound, Spotify connect and absolutely none of the faff. Thank you!
I agree, I think the majority of the market will shift to the minimalist convenience, especially if the sound quality keeps improving/narrowing margin with passive separates. It’s a bit analogous to the mobile phone replacing camera, music player, navigation separates.
Active speakers out performed the passive equivalents in quality and price 40 years ago. With DSP the designer can get more out of the box than would be possible with a passive design. Hence Kef LS60 will never have a passive version. There are passive speakers as good (better) but at the cost of size and at a price.
Mobile phones are Swiss Army knifes of tech but like the Champ every tool can be easily bettered at the cost of space and money. 80% covered is often good enough.
The worry with much of the tech advancement now is the way mobile phones do not get updates. A new phone may refuse to install an older app and then your steaming DSP active speakers will not work. A new update or new device may not work with your 18 month old phone that can not get the current version of operating system needed. The manufacturers have chosen to do this, not for technical reasons but because they can't afford to update last years' model with new software and believe users would not pay for that service.
Boom! I’m in. All I need is the budget 😁
A great ramble on audio philosophy. 5 stars, John !
Well done! For your headphone section of the video: I just learned about Nurasound's new earbuds, the NuraTrue Pro, which apparently will be out in October. They will support lossless audio over Bluetooth. I wonder how many others will come out this year, can't wait!
I guess I should have left the room but I’m someone who find D amps fatiguing. And you do not want to mix large AB class amp with it’s large transformers near a delicate and sensible DAC. So I went only half way : streamer/DAC/preamp (Moon 390d) and Bryston monoblocs feeding the loudspeakers. This allow me to listen a high level without fatigue.
on of the best episodes
Your vision resonates with me John. My study system is level 6, a Marantz SACD 30n (DAC, Streamer and SACD player - for my large SACD collection, yes I know you don't see high definition as part of the future) fed via analogue (to get the full benefit of SACD playback) into a pair of Dynaudio XEO 10. The XEO 10 immediately converts the analogue input to digital for DSP processing. If I was buying today, I would be looking at active speaker solutions, the Dynaudio Focus 30 very much appeals. Your listening environment often has the biggest impact on your sound so sophisticated room correction software is vital to get the best from your system.
Great episode
Ha! I used to be convinced that high quality active speakers are the solution. Turns out that their built-in amplifiers can be a limiting factor. That is to say, this limit manifests itself very late, but when it does, you are stuck. And, I will never ever mix analogue with digital in a component again, because the digital technology makes large progress in little time, whereas a good amp will stay for decades.
The tech advance is unstoppable in most respects. I ditched a separate system for LS50w2’s and an LC62 and really haven’t looked back - saved myself a TON of space and gained 100% convenience too.
Also, and perhaps for me most importantly, I have got rid of that niggling ‘just a step more’ sensation. There’s no way I can add to this system apart from the next iteration of the same, and it’s a big weight off the old shoulders I’ll tell you!
I’m starting to feel the same way about my camera - It’s beginning to feel anachronistic and outdated when compared with my phone. Here, once computational photography is indistinguishable from images taken with a ‘proper’ camera there’s no going back. Same with the way I play music. It always comes sooner than you think…. 😳
I too am waiting for future-fi. Enjoying your videos for a couple years and was glad to see you put this into one video. Sometimes putting it out there, as concise as you have done here, will get the industries attention.
I’ve been selling off my vintage separatist equipment lately but not quite ready to buy my future fi gear. Your advice is very helpful in thinking this through. Thank you !
Very thoughtful John, thank you. Looking forward to hi-res Bluetooth!
Love the video. Btw do you have a 10 step program for audio addiction?
I think an updated roadmap is due 😂
Excellent video as ever. I guess I am happily in the middle (TDAI-1120 + passive speakers). I think that since there's so much impact to the sound from the selection of speakers, then the sort of Goldilocks scenario here is to have all the electronics in one box, paired to speakers of your liking, and which fit the room.
I am definitely with you here. Currently pondering whether to either 1) get a Chord Poly for my Mojo or 2) ditch the whole setup and move over to something like the AirPods Max or PX7mk2 or Sony WH1000XM5 though none of those offers lossless. Love my simple Sonos setup around the house. Just works.
Bluesound NODE (not POWERNODE) with powered speakers (step 6-7)
So the biggest issues with this paradigm is that though it might be minimalist for the purchaser, ultimately if fails as it is disposable audio that ends up in landfills as pollution. It’s typically not repairable at a cost that makes sense for the user. When these digital class d amps break and they all do. You can’t take it to a repair shop and get it recapped. You have to replace the whole class d amp. If it’s all consolidates into powered passive/active speakers, the customer has to buy a new one and the old one is not recycled it is junk. I would never buy a high end consolidated speaker like the B&W formation as the sound won’t be top notch, the speaker system will be defunct when it goes bad. Manufactures are not providing long term warranties on these products. If it breaks in a year or 2 at the most you’ll get a replacement amp for it but after that you have an expensive piece of junk. In the end while you have lived minimally for awhile you have just contributed to the pollution problem greatly. So I understand why Johnny is selling this paradigm but if you want to have a long lasting system by a class AB amp, w separate passive speakers or active speakers with separate class AB amplifiers and keep the digital streaming consolidated products to a minimum. It’s not future fi nirvana when the stuff breaks and can’t be repaired or if the repair costs as much as a new one.
Pretty much why I bought my daughter a DIY speaker from parts express. When the amp or the battery dies (and they will) we can pop in replacement generic part years from now. She did have a very nice sounding name brand BT speaker but one of its IC burned up and therefore the whole thing was trash.
I have seen soooooo many protocols and systems abandoned by manufacturers. Even Micro$oft just decides "oh, it's too hard to make a driver for that item for windows 1562, we'll just drop support and say it's too old." My speakers are 40 years old, I cried once when I bought them and they are still excellent (JBL Studio Monitors.) I have replaced amps and turntables and cd players and have had a very nice system for a long time. People just aren't that stoopid, and wires just aren't that hard to use. I don't stick to separates because I'm dogmatic or inflexible, it makes much more sense and gives me control, not someone else. With my current amp (supporting 5.1) I got a microphone, which lets it adjust all the speakers. But I gave up my graphic equalizer, and the music has suffered for it. And I've had to buy a separate phono amp, because why would someone use vinyl?
I'd rather see systems that let you use separates but give them the smarts you describe. Put a wireless amp on top of or behind each speaker, with microphone to do room eq. With a protocol like Ableton link I can synchronize all of my music playback and production, we need open protocols and flexible standards that work with components from multiple manufacturers. Smarten the separates is a much more forward thinking solution, not the Ronco StreamMaster 2020.
I’ve had Linn Majik DSMs in two rooms for many years now - one box (streamer, DAC, pre-amp, power amp) that you just have to add passive speakers to and that you can also add extra power amps to bi-amp and also be connected to by any 4k video source or a turntable, albeit it doesn’t have a phono stage on board. Both are running Qobuz and my stored music collection via Roon but are able to run all the major streaming services as well. The rooms I run these in have limited space so this is the perfect solution for these rooms (both also have in-wall Totem speakers to save space). My main system is a separates system with 10 boxes and 9 speakers, 4 of which are active, but that’s no compromise and the room has plenty of space. However, that a bit misleading as that system in a home cinema / hifi. If I look at just the hifi element, it’s future-fi. One box for streaming (Linn Klimax System Hub) feeds active speakers using cat 6 cable (Linn Akubariks, which contain 5 amps each and the DACs). Also connected to the Klimax SH with a cat 6 cable is a Linn LP12 turntable with onboard phono stage. So I can play records and digital (streaming, ripped and downloaded) using two boxes plus speakers with NO compromise on sound quality, which is very much top-end hi-fi.
Dear John, best video yet! 👍🔝🏁
Horses for courses right? Sure there is a huge market for single boxes or powered speakers with clever stuff built in, and that's great. There are also people who prefer selecting the phono stage for their record player because they like the sound of one more than another. I'm a separates man, but if I was starting out today as a younger enthusiast maybe I'd go for the single magic box. It also depends on the level of audio you are at: I'd never pay £12,000 for a single box for fear of it going wrong or not being able to upgrade a part of it, but spending that money on separates seems more sensible. For a £1000-£3000 system future fi makes more sense to me.
I have a feeling in 10-15 years a single digital box will be able to simulate most systems ever built using AI- tube, tape, vinyl, everything. The neural network has to "listen" to all systems and learn. Devialet uses DSP curves to enhance a lot of speakers and correct phase errors induced by analog crossovers
Good comment! Relatedly, I am not so sure people who do go for the single box won't want to upgrade at some point shortly after, But having spent so much on that single box, the cost will be prohibitive.
Reguarding Software: Chromecast for me is the worst solution off all! No Gapless playback, sometime work, and so on. Airplay is fine but the soundquality isn’t good enough! Room is really nice but you have to pay for it separately…(every month)
For me personally Bluesound is the best of all. Because it supports a lot of (in the near future) difference brands. Different kind of products in almost every price class. Real multiroom support, high-res audio, pc and Mac controller software and so on and so on…thanks
Hi John, thanks for another great video! For ‘Simplification Step 6’ (Digital hub + Active loudspeakers), you could consider to have a look at:
- Grimm Audio MU2 (network in, analogue out)
- One box solution with integrated: Roon server, psu, reclocker & scaler, endpoint, pre amp, headphone, discrete DAC, analogue volume control
- Munich room E216, Atrium 4.2 (2023)
I can get on board this future. It’s going to be interesting for sure. I’m really trying to think about elements of minimalism in my electronic life style lately.
Most HT receivers have everything in one box and sound pretty good. Plus you can watch movies. Job done.
Was gonna jump in to mention the same thing. Not as "prestigious" or sharply designed as integrated amps, but they can be a great "audio Swiss army knife"
Very interesting. As already demonstrated by integrated "smart" televisions, there's a danger of your equipment becoming quickly outdated if the streaming services are baked in to the device. It relies on the manufacturer to update software to keep pace with the streaming services developments. If a Samsung TV's function is crippled because it can no longer support BBC iPlayer you are then forced to get an external device to solve it. Admittedly Sonos is on the ball on this point. Can the same be said for the manufacturers you mentioned? Is it not safer to have all features integrated into the speakers apart from the streaming service itself? - Just noted that Michael Toto is also commenting from a similar angle!
@@titntin5178 but what happens if roon folds?
I tried to demonstrate the wonderful features of BBC iplayer on a friends (then) new smart Samsung TV with a programme I knew they likes. The built in app does not support audio - so no radio. Sure Freeview and Freesat radio stations work but you can't play audio on iPlayer/Sounds. I tried the web interface. (browser) got the page but nothing worked. Plugged in a computer and everything worked,
For audio streaming B&O have a modular design so they can replace the Mozart module if they can't just update the software.
Thank you, I am learning a lot through your videos. What worries me about compacting all into one are reparability and futureproofing... software companies come and go whereas passive loudspeakers can last decades...
Have loved my Audio Engine HD6's since 2017!
Primarily use them with my TV today as I have gone primarily vintage.
Have a buddy who likes to come over to listen to his recording mixes on my many systems prior to final Mastering. We always run them through the Audio Engines Blue tooth as one of the "references. "
As a developer I don't trust you will have support for the apps and integrations for more than 4 or 5 years. Heck, my NAD amp dropped support for Spotify Connect leaving me with just chromecast (which sound worse to my ears.. try researching this and you will see), it doesn't support the latest Chromecast firmware so once I had to factory reset and it was a pain to setup again, requiring a buggy "compatibility app" from Google. I ended up making my own raspotify with a Pi Zero (very happy btw). Trust hardware ports instead. USB and toslink have been around for decades. This is future fi for me, a great integrated amp with plenty of digital ports and zero Internet connectivity.
USB, HDMI, TOSLINK, RJ45 ethernet (to run standard network protocols) and finally RCA/stereo mini jack and you have pretty much everything covered. RCA is pretty much a must because every DAC/AMP/streamer of any price range you pick will almost guaranteed to output analogue signal in some form.
I've seen a lot of recent AIO speakers build without RCA inputs which is something I would definitely not buy (eg the B&O Formation Duo).
I agree on the software/firmware support issue. It's the reason I forsee these components run on iOS and Android, not some obscure shell fork of Linux or worse. An app on iOS or Android can be supported for a very long time -- with little maintenance -- even third party.
The irony, of course, is that if you buy a turntable, amp and speakers right now - they will be less obsolete in 10 years than most current so-called "FutureFi". The FutureFI will likely be broken either because tightly-integrated complicated hardware components are prone to fail and not be repairable or because the FutureFi won't be compatible with whatever protocols/services emerge in the future. If you want future-proof buy a turntable.
Hey John,
Your video speaks to me. I now have a uniti atom he edition and a meze elite. Simple as that. All my streamer, dac and amp are gone.
Makes life simple, and Roon from my iPhone to do all. So simple yet so enjoyable
Im Streaming by my OLED TV via digital output to my benchmark DAC2 D/A converter. Then the signal goes by XLR to the Yamaha A-S2100 amplifier and then to the speakers (DXT-MON 2Way system). Works amazing!
I'm using the Audioengine speakers with my computer, so simple, and it sounds so sweet.
I love Audioengine speakers!
I’m sure it does but compared to what ?
Excellent !!! What if we want 5.1 or 7.1.2 ?
Basically it doesn't work that way.
WiSA speakers and systems do support the route from single to stereo through to 6 and 8 channels. B&O discontinued a centre channel going for control and centre from their televisions. Buchardt have front and rear choices but no sub or centre yet. There are others supporting WiSA and compatible products can be mixed and matched.
B&W Formation range offer wireless rears, sub woofer but centre and front stereo is in the Bar. The otherwise incredibly good Duo do not integrate into a surround sound system and are not for use with a TV.
Kef LX60 and LX50 as rears and their compact sub have the potential but maybe never the software to make them works in surround.
Only analogue actives speakers can scale up from stereo to surround using a 6/8 channel DAC or HDMI Debedder to line level outputs that feed into a power amp (with passive speakers) or analogue active speakers.
A delight to watch, and ponder on. The out takes where the icing on the cake…
Following a previous future-fi discussion, I landed on the NAD M10, suitable speakers and sub which works well in the small space it lives in. This sort of thing is the future I tells ya. Thanks John for pointing the way.
I was on the path to future FI until I saw a Sonos speaker complete obsolete after 5 years. No more support from the OEM, so an otherwise perfectly working speaker is now a brick.
Next, upgrading. It's essentially impossible to upgrade all in one systems. I think some where at step 4 would be best. Speakers can go forever until the cones disintegrate. So Future Fi for me is all in one amps with dumb speakers.
Which Sonos speaker, because ALL of my old speakers still work.
I agree. Turntable, preamp, power amp, speakers. No worries about obsolescence when you are already obsolete. It leaves you with money to spend on vinyl (instead of kit that wont last 5 years). If you want room correction, by a 31 band EQ and use your ears to get the correction right. How future proof is that?
Good luck putting everything in a speaker... those bass frequencies will only result in dry solder joints 25 years down the line.
They only blocked it from new features only available in more recent models and the oldest systems can not be seamlessly integrated will the current range but will work as they original did. They do get "bricked" if Sonos get them so they can't then be resold.
Same with most devices. Your 1999 PC will run Windows XP but may have problems with Windows 7 or 10. Some hardware only has drivers for XP and will not install and run under Windows 10. Some software and some hardware will not run on a 64 bit OS etc etc.
In the analogue work you can mix and match going back 70 years for the cost of a cheap cable but it does not mean your CD player is ever going to play DVD or Blu-ray but the reverse is true.
Devialet supported PC/Mac and had radio steaming and built in Spotify and Tidal. They promises updates to buggy software but then dropped support. That included built in Spotify and Tidal leaving those to be supported by the device controlling the speakers. The new software is more stable (but not when first released) and has reduced the lag when playing from the sound track of a film. Apple bricked the app with a new iOS release and it took weeks for Devialet to fix it for users.
Kef did not add improvements and bug fixes to the app for the LS50 Wireless speakers. The app for the LS50 II wireless relies upon a more powerful controlling processor and so can not be used on the older models.
@@janedoe6350 eq and dsp room correction are completely different. eq's are dealing with frequencies, dsp's are dealing with signal runtime - as far as i know
The trouble with this concept of FutureFi is that with just one component, a failure or an upgrade requires a purchase of a whole new system.
Modular subcomponents could be the answer. Just as in a PC you can change a video card or an audio card, you could replace the DAC for example.
It would be down to manufacturers to make this task as simple as possible which is why it ain't gonna happen.
The Buchardt A700 has amp modules that can be replaced by the user. I am not sure these amp modules include all the electronics, like DSP’s and DAC’s, but I guess they do. The streaming section is a separate module that can be replaced. I expect Modular sub components will likely become more available in the near future because the user is asking for it.
@@leokuiper2593 Buchardt A500 the same. Seen as a cheaper way to get electronics repaired and replaced than posting off the whole speaker (pair of speakers) but also for future hardware changes for new standards. With Buchardt and other WiSA the hub usually enables these changes. The hub for A500/A700 is stereo but you can get a WiSA surround 5.1/7.1 hub from HDMI ARC or USB input.
B&O claim the Mozart system in their speakers is a modular upgrade. So a new wi-fi standard or lossless Bluetooth needing new hardware is just replacing some or all of that module. B&O have done this. They created a four channel amplifier for old passive speakers like the CX50, 75 and 100 where the passive cross over is removed and the amp fitted to a Raspberry Pi and tucked inside the speaker. The passive speaker becomes a streaming active speaker and a little DIY.
I took more of a sidestep. Replaced tape deck, cassette deck, turntable with laptop and DAC and kept amplifier and loudspeakers the same. The whole 2,000 album collection & former tapes as playlists are now on the laptop. Computers and DACs have shorter technology life cycles than amps & speakers so I kept this separate
Amazing stuff as always John. I watch your videos religiosly, start to finish. Thank you!
“GIVE ME SEPARATES OR GIVE ME DEATH”
how is old concept AV RECEIVER compatible with new concept of "future fi" ? its all in one box sound work horse - dac, streamer, bluetooth, power amp, room correction, tuner ETC, including HOME cinema surround sound.. plenty of manufacturer choices AV RECEIVER - DENON YAMAHA ONKYO NAD ARCAM ROTEL MARANTZ, etc
After step 5 I realised you've just described a whole load of home theatre amplifiers. My Yamaha A6a does everything you just described to step 5 and I suspect a whole bunch more do it too.
Atc scm40a are a good shout, thanks for putting in all the work. Just found out you have a podcast so been binging.