Respect to the driver on boad. That belt wrapping round the flywheel would have been scary, no time to think just acted on instinct. When you play hard things do go wrong.
As a rally organiser, safety team leader and retired engineer I must comment on the unsafe and badly managed display of steam under power, it was irresponsible and bad practice to run an engine without its governor working, plus it was bad practice to increase the engines power once the belt became unstable, the belt will have slackened off due to the heat generated within its structure and the friction of a crossed belt set up. The whole rally movement is lucky that no one was killed or injured.
Surely with a govenor present the engine speed would vary and the regulator would have to be adjusted anyway as the govnor would not keep it at the exact same speed under that amount of load. Also note the wet conditions meaning that could be a factor too. So belt slippage is always possible. After all isn't this the old style way and not showing modern health and safety where it has got silly now and no one has common sense??
Well the engine and the dyno where in a closed-fenced area. The belt can flip on this engines especially under this load. I do not think a gouvernor would helped.
I respectfully disagree on part of your analysis, Harold. Boadicea was built specifically for delivering tanks to the front in WW1. Since she is a road locomotive, I don't know if she was ever fitted with a governor, since she would be unlikely to be called upon to drive machinery direct from the flywheel. But even in the event that she was so fitted, it would be very unwise to employ one in a maximum torque test such as this particular one. Boadicea can theoretically exceed 4000 ft/lbs of torque even working compound, & this leather belt is simply not capable of handling that level of torque output even at the periphery of a 4ft flywheel. At 3554 ft/lbs, the return run of the belt to the engine had suddenly gone completely limp, compared to the wild bouncing seconds earlier. This wasn't caused by heat build up. It was caused by the integrity of the belt being stretched beyond endurance due to almost 2 metric tons of pull being brought to bear on it. That's why it came off the dynamometer flywheel with such force. It was being stretched like a gigantic rubber band! A governor attempts to maintain flywheel rpm against resistance by opening or shutting down the regulator accordingly. Therefore, unlike direct driver control, where he can see that the belt is reaching the limits of its endurance, & feathering the regulator accordingly, - a governor will simply keep adding more & more regulator as more resistance is brought to bear by the dynamometer operator, which would have made the belt failure even more dramatic. Single cylinder engines, or even compounds working under 150 psi maximum boiler pressure may produce torque peaks inside the capacity of the belt. But Boadicea has a working pressure of 210 psi, which is a very different ball game altogether. In her case, I think a maximum torque test down at 60 rpm should be abandoned. She's simply too strong. There isn't another engine of any kind even at the GDSF that remotely approaches her torque peak capabilities even when working compound, much less her 7918 ft/lb when working simple. Since steam engine torque falls away progressively as the rpm rises, a maximum horsepower test at 165-170 rpm may have guaranteed the integrity of the belt at or close to full regulator. But only the lesser engines should be torque peak tested down at close to stall speed. After all, this particular dynamometer has a horsepower capability beyond that of Boadicea working compound, & possibly even her 250 bhp working simple output. But even her compound torque peak is 1000 ft/lbs above that of Scania's most powerful 730 bhp tractor unit diesel, & .no leather belt is going to stay intact under that kind of load
@@hiyadroogs wow! She is a beast! 250bhp is a strong engine! That makes sense about her being too Powerful. Most traction engines are no more than 150psi and she is over that. But isn't a ploughing engine more powerful? What belt could take the strain?
This is a road locomotive and would normally not be fitted with governors. But I agree with the overall safety comments. They seem to have a lots of faith in the belt. But what about the flywheel, many have fractured under such loads. Ploughing engines pulling tractor drag in other Welland 2019 videos with people walking around severely tight wire rope is also dicing with death. I am sure Heras fencing is not a good enough barrier.
Interesting observation, we used to have a welch guy who was in his 70 working with us, a real gent he told me of when he was working with a pair of ploughing engines before ww2 when the cable snapped and killed a man, it ripped through his arm and half way through his torso, your comment reminded me of this, accidents happen so quickly and afterwards everybody wonders why they didn't see them coming
My dad always told me: "When You're near belt drives, Chainsaw, tires spinning, anything that rotates: NEVER STAND IN THE LINE OF FLIGHT!" I always knew why he said this, but I never seen it so directly... Respect to the operator, stopping the engine that fast from full load to zero. Do You think Enya named her Song after this machine? ;)
I read a book called Apprenticeship In Steam, by Jack Hampshire. He described a case where his team were using a cable winch on a traction engine to haul out a ditched steam lorry. A young chap named Jim was standing between the two engines, supervising the pull. The wire cable snapped under the immense torque being produced, & the flailing cable whiplashed back, scything poor Jim clean in half. No health & safety regs in 1918.
3500 ft lbs of torque will really stretch a belt. On gear drives in industrial settings under heavy load you can watch roller chain stretch too. One side will get loose like that I've seen it quite a few times.
Yeah it is rather maybe it's slightly not aligned but takes a while to aline and especially on a 1 inch traction engine. However I think it's the fact of a lot of load suddenly put on the belt and fact it's twisted obviously done on purpose
@@mattseymour8637 The twist helps counteract belt slap and avoid bouncing. Dyno operator needed to run it a little faster so that it wasn't cogging as badly, this would also get it off of the harmonic so it would stop bouncing around until it comes off. I drive a steam tractor sometimes in the US, its fun stuff and indeed getting lined up on the belt usually takes a few tries. Always have a hand on the throttle when belted and under load, because even when it seems stable it could throw at any time and break things by getting caught in the machinery.
@@renegadeoflife87 I know what you saying but I know someone who doesn't a lot of steam sawing and he said that belts twisted do not prevent the belt slipping off but change the direction of turn for example depending on whether the engine goes which way on the flywheel. It's all about lining up the machine and the engine correctly. But people think it's the twisting the belt but it's not
As some one that has been to rallys off and on off for forty years.and have rallyed a steamer for three years.as these engines get older.they seem to be working them harder.lf they are not carfull,there will be a nasty acident due to old age .
Depends on how far it is pushed. I'm okay with seeing them work to their rated capacities as long as the mechanisms have been gone through first to make sure everything is in good order and not likely to fail from the strain. Obviously taking it above and beyond its ratings is a bad idea that is only going to break things.
@@FodenS36 And when the engine is run at a high enough RPM to avoid cogging action. The dyno operator pulled it down too far, resulting in the surging torque at TDC and BDC crossing sending the belt into resonance that makes it flap. 20 RPM higher would have gotten it off that resonance and allowed the belt to track smoother while still carrying a similar amount of power.
The pulleys are curved covex slighly. Crowned its called. If aligned reasonably they will run nicely unguided. There are limits though, hence the improved vee belts and toothed belts we have today.
They are attached to a dyno after all, if you had the results and the diameter of the dyno's pully you could calculate the torque upon it and thus how much force the belt was actually carrying.
Except that even working compound as here, (exhaust steam from HP cylinder feeding the larger LP cylinder) Boadicea can generate 3,960 lb/ft by calculation at 210 psi (full boiler pressure) Working simple, (full boiler pressure to both cylinders, she can potentially develop 7,918 Ib/ft. But even on compound working, she is far too strong for a belt to hold her. Even on compound working, she is more than doubling the maximum torque at the crankshaft of the strongest truck engine in the UK.
I also calculated that Boady would produce 125 bhp working compound, so 111 bhp before the belt slipped off was pretty spot on. The working simple figure was 248.5 bhp @ 165 rpm
The operators of the dynamometer have done bad work - they have caused too much stress the overload of the drive belt. The boadicea operator worked exemplary.
The Boadicea operator should have observed the belt slacking off as the torque increased and stretched it to the point it was unsufe. I think the dyno operator did bad work, but to use the word exemplary to describe the Boadicea operator is a bit of a stretch (npi) in my opinion.
@@laurieguetat7008 Combination of factors here. The dyno operator should have let the RPM run a little higher, getting off of that bad harmonic that was making the belt flap dangerously until it was thrown. At the same time the tractor's driver could also have worked out the harmonic by slowing briefly to let it settle before speeding up again. Much more critically, this engine is apparently without governor- making it extremely dangerous to work it this far because in a thrown or broken belt operator reflex alone is the only thing stopping a destructive and dangerous engine runaway.
I would say that blue fabricated frame on the Dyno needs beefing up. That steelwork is bending in rhythm to the engines power strokes. Faultless engine driving.
I agree, though I believe they have re mounted the rig since on a much more stable base. totally agree that the engine driver did a great job getting it all stopped as quickly as he did.
the show is just seeing these machines operating in safety, safety was minimal to say less ie those barriers in case of explosion would be as many rotating blades together with the machine parts, notice the judges in group rejoining the driver near the machine still in pressure , this also is foolishness....😂 it’s not a matter of torque, belt, equipment... etc...these competitions, measuring the power, are completely senseless. We already had a dead here during a tractor pulling competition.
It's rather stupid to push the demonstration that far as to endanger the people and equipment to the point that any fool could plainly see what was going to happen. The potential for a fatal incident is high, all it takes is once and these rallys will be gone!
Respect to the driver on boad. That belt wrapping round the flywheel would have been scary, no time to think just acted on instinct.
When you play hard things do go wrong.
As a rally organiser, safety team leader and retired engineer I must comment on the unsafe and badly managed display of steam under power, it was irresponsible and bad practice to run an engine without its governor working, plus it was bad practice to increase the engines power once the belt became unstable, the belt will have slackened off due to the heat generated within its structure and the friction of a crossed belt set up. The whole rally movement is lucky that no one was killed or injured.
Surely with a govenor present the engine speed would vary and the regulator would have to be adjusted anyway as the govnor would not keep it at the exact same speed under that amount of load. Also note the wet conditions meaning that could be a factor too. So belt slippage is always possible. After all isn't this the old style way and not showing modern health and safety where it has got silly now and no one has common sense??
Well the engine and the dyno where in a closed-fenced area. The belt can flip on this engines especially under this load. I do not think a gouvernor would helped.
@@paulhorn2665 yes I agree as have researched govenors and the engine can slow slow down under alot of power ! Glad you agree with me
I respectfully disagree on part of your analysis, Harold. Boadicea was built specifically for delivering tanks to the front in WW1. Since she is a road locomotive, I don't know if she was ever fitted with a governor, since she would be unlikely to be called upon to drive machinery direct from the flywheel. But even in the event that she was so fitted, it would be very unwise to employ one in a maximum torque test such as this particular one. Boadicea can theoretically exceed 4000 ft/lbs of torque even working compound, & this leather belt is simply not capable of handling that level of torque output even at the periphery of a 4ft flywheel. At 3554 ft/lbs, the return run of the belt to the engine had suddenly gone completely limp, compared to the wild bouncing seconds earlier. This wasn't caused by heat build up. It was caused by the integrity of the belt being stretched beyond endurance due to almost 2 metric tons of pull being brought to bear on it. That's why it came off the dynamometer flywheel with such force. It was being stretched like a gigantic rubber band! A governor attempts to maintain flywheel rpm against resistance by opening or shutting down the regulator accordingly. Therefore, unlike direct driver control, where he can see that the belt is reaching the limits of its endurance, & feathering the regulator accordingly, - a governor will simply keep adding more & more regulator as more resistance is brought to bear by the dynamometer operator, which would have made the belt failure even more dramatic. Single cylinder engines, or even compounds working under 150 psi maximum boiler pressure may produce torque peaks inside the capacity of the belt. But Boadicea has a working pressure of 210 psi, which is a very different ball game altogether. In her case, I think a maximum torque test down at 60 rpm should be abandoned. She's simply too strong. There isn't another engine of any kind even at the GDSF that remotely approaches her torque peak capabilities even when working compound, much less her 7918 ft/lb when working simple. Since steam engine torque falls away progressively as the rpm rises, a maximum horsepower test at 165-170 rpm may have guaranteed the integrity of the belt at or close to full regulator. But only the lesser engines should be torque peak tested down at close to stall speed. After all, this particular dynamometer has a horsepower capability beyond that of Boadicea working compound, & possibly even her 250 bhp working simple output. But even her compound torque peak is 1000 ft/lbs above that of Scania's most powerful 730 bhp tractor unit diesel, & .no leather belt is going to stay intact under that kind of load
@@hiyadroogs wow! She is a beast! 250bhp is a strong engine! That makes sense about her being too Powerful. Most traction engines are no more than 150psi and she is over that. But isn't a ploughing engine more powerful? What belt could take the strain?
1:20 amazing the belt stays on that long.
This is a road locomotive and would normally not be fitted with governors. But I agree with the overall safety comments. They seem to have a lots of faith in the belt. But what about the flywheel, many have fractured under such loads. Ploughing engines pulling tractor drag in other Welland 2019 videos with people walking around severely tight wire rope is also dicing with death. I am sure Heras fencing is not a good enough barrier.
Interesting observation, we used to have a welch guy who was in his 70 working with us, a real gent he told me of when he was working with a pair of ploughing engines before ww2 when the cable snapped and killed a man, it ripped through his arm and half way through his torso, your comment reminded me of this, accidents happen so quickly and afterwards everybody wonders why they didn't see them coming
My dad always told me: "When You're near belt drives, Chainsaw, tires spinning, anything that rotates:
NEVER STAND IN THE LINE OF FLIGHT!" I always knew why he said this, but I never seen it so directly...
Respect to the operator, stopping the engine that fast from full load to zero.
Do You think Enya named her Song after this machine? ;)
I totally agree and its good advice, glad no one was sat on the seat!
I read a book called Apprenticeship In Steam, by Jack Hampshire. He described a case where his team were using a cable winch on a traction engine to haul out a ditched steam lorry. A young chap named Jim was standing between the two engines, supervising the pull. The wire cable snapped under the immense torque being produced, & the flailing cable whiplashed back, scything poor Jim clean in half. No health & safety regs in 1918.
3500 ft lbs of torque will really stretch a belt. On gear drives in industrial settings under heavy load you can watch roller chain stretch too. One side will get loose like that I've seen it quite a few times.
I think it’s incredible that a belt can take that sort of torque
Well... somebody nearly got cut in half by that belt !
The steamer I run one corner of the canopy is smashed from being hit by broken belts over the years.
@@fartsoundeffect5013 it can happen I own one myself and it could kill you by the speed
Well when the belt flips at 4:10 thats dangerous. A good reaction from the machinist! But it seems the belt was wobbly all the time :-( Not good.
The belts are meant to flex a fair bit so don't snap
@@mattseymour8637 I worked with belts at a grain mill and you are right, they must flex a bit. But this belt was to wobbly from the beginning.
Yeah it is rather maybe it's slightly not aligned but takes a while to aline and especially on a 1 inch traction engine. However I think it's the fact of a lot of load suddenly put on the belt and fact it's twisted obviously done on purpose
@@mattseymour8637 The twist helps counteract belt slap and avoid bouncing. Dyno operator needed to run it a little faster so that it wasn't cogging as badly, this would also get it off of the harmonic so it would stop bouncing around until it comes off.
I drive a steam tractor sometimes in the US, its fun stuff and indeed getting lined up on the belt usually takes a few tries. Always have a hand on the throttle when belted and under load, because even when it seems stable it could throw at any time and break things by getting caught in the machinery.
@@renegadeoflife87 I know what you saying but I know someone who doesn't a lot of steam sawing and he said that belts twisted do not prevent the belt slipping off but change the direction of turn for example depending on whether the engine goes which way on the flywheel.
It's all about lining up the machine and the engine correctly.
But people think it's the twisting the belt but it's not
OTHER THAN THE BELT , NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF HERE!!
As some one that has been to rallys off and on off for forty years.and have rallyed a steamer for three years.as these engines get older.they seem to be working them harder.lf they are not carfull,there will be a nasty acident due to old age .
Depends on how far it is pushed. I'm okay with seeing them work to their rated capacities as long as the mechanisms have been gone through first to make sure everything is in good order and not likely to fail from the strain. Obviously taking it above and beyond its ratings is a bad idea that is only going to break things.
Cheque books are they for the more money than sense brigade.
And this video demonstrates why Welland isn't an NTET approved rally 😏
insane .. watch the belt
Can anyone explain why the belt isnt secured with guides or anything? I am sure there is a very good reason but I just dont know
TheWhiteOwl23 it’s generally not necessary, flat belts are very stable when the pulleys are lined up
@@FodenS36 And when the engine is run at a high enough RPM to avoid cogging action. The dyno operator pulled it down too far, resulting in the surging torque at TDC and BDC crossing sending the belt into resonance that makes it flap.
20 RPM higher would have gotten it off that resonance and allowed the belt to track smoother while still carrying a similar amount of power.
The pulleys are curved covex slighly. Crowned its called. If aligned reasonably they will run nicely unguided. There are limits though, hence the improved vee belts and toothed belts we have today.
@@FodenS36 So were the people doing this demonstration not lining things up right? Became the belt got loose on two times in a row.
Looks like something Rube Goldberg would have been proud of.
Is there a way to calculate the tension and deformation of the belt during a test?
Could be interesting to know, it must stretch a fair amount with that power going through it.
They are attached to a dyno after all, if you had the results and the diameter of the dyno's pully you could calculate the torque upon it and thus how much force the belt was actually carrying.
Chugga Chugga Choo Choo
1st dyno failed then the 2nd dyno attempt failed as well when you have too much steam torque on Dyno
i dont consider 3554 lbft a "fail"... thanks for posting!
Certainly impressive torque figures!
Except that even working compound as here, (exhaust steam from HP cylinder feeding the larger LP cylinder) Boadicea can generate 3,960 lb/ft by calculation at 210 psi (full boiler pressure) Working simple, (full boiler pressure to both cylinders, she can potentially develop 7,918 Ib/ft. But even on compound working, she is far too strong for a belt to hold her. Even on compound working, she is more than doubling the maximum torque at the crankshaft of the strongest truck engine in the UK.
I also calculated that Boady would produce 125 bhp working compound, so 111 bhp before the belt slipped off was pretty spot on. The working simple figure was 248.5 bhp @ 165 rpm
Impressive stuff, id love to see it complete a full run, I bet the sound would be incredible.
Need to tighten that belt ole chap!!
I think your gonna need another belt
that belt got wreaked!
No wonder the FUCKING boiler dident blow up thanks for posting
I mean, why would it
The operators of the dynamometer have done bad work - they have caused too much stress the overload of the drive belt. The boadicea operator worked exemplary.
The Boadicea operator should have observed the belt slacking off as the torque increased and stretched it to the point it was unsufe. I think the dyno operator did bad work, but to use the word exemplary to describe the Boadicea operator is a bit of a stretch (npi) in my opinion.
@@laurieguetat7008 Combination of factors here. The dyno operator should have let the RPM run a little higher, getting off of that bad harmonic that was making the belt flap dangerously until it was thrown. At the same time the tractor's driver could also have worked out the harmonic by slowing briefly to let it settle before speeding up again. Much more critically, this engine is apparently without governor- making it extremely dangerous to work it this far because in a thrown or broken belt operator reflex alone is the only thing stopping a destructive and dangerous engine runaway.
@@renegadeoflife87 yeah high rpm is bad for traction engines as not meant for anything over 300 rpm or so
How many inches in diameter of steam engine wheel pulley ?
It’s not just a pulley, also a flywheel , I think 1,5 m ( sorry the rest of the world outside uk is “metric”)
Wait when you say dyno for this, As in a real dyno to measure power or to create electricity
As in Dynamometer, measuring torque. I believe she managed 3554 lbft before the belt came off!
How bad was it ???
I would say that blue fabricated frame on the Dyno needs beefing up. That steelwork is bending in rhythm to the engines power strokes. Faultless engine driving.
I agree, though I believe they have re mounted the rig since on a much more stable base. totally agree that the engine driver did a great job getting it all stopped as quickly as he did.
Is it flexing, or just rocking combined with the video artifacting.
That was cool, too bad they ate of that expensive belt
the show is just seeing these machines operating in safety, safety was minimal to say less ie those barriers in case of explosion would be as many rotating blades together with the machine parts, notice the judges in group rejoining the driver near the machine still in pressure , this also is foolishness....😂 it’s not a matter of torque, belt, equipment... etc...these competitions, measuring the power, are completely senseless.
We already had a dead here during a tractor pulling competition.
Wow slack
❤
totally unnecessary
10 Horse Maclaren, awesome power. the belt was crap.a good old Belata belt would have stuck it.!!!
Quite a bit of flex in the Dino itself won’t of helped, it’s a hell of a lot of power to try and control
It's rather stupid to push the demonstration that far as to endanger the people and equipment to the point that any fool could plainly see what was going to happen. The potential for a fatal incident is high, all it takes is once and these rallys will be gone!
English engine what do you expect
Too powerful for the Dyno to handle
@@FodenS36 no just built poor. Lets see him get 3500 foot pounds of torque like the American rumely
It registered 3554 foot pounds before the belt came off so she’s certainly good for a good amount more than that.
@@FodenS36 bull bullshit!
Don’t cry 😭