Oh, for this debate, I highly recommend to watch the entire debate. You’d get to experience one of Christopher Hitchens best and most powerful speeches.
I also highly recommend watching the entire debate, and to add to that, a particular stand out moment for me was Fry's 'rebuttal', a little later, it is just a beautifully eloquent and scathing condemnation of the _idea_ that the Catholic Church can even be considered a force for good. Also, trigger warning? I guess... Depending on how much thought you give to Anne Widicombe's statements, during the audience question section, you may find yourself staving off apologetic rage... I did, I assume I'm probably not unique in that. I was genuinely furiously disgusted with what she said, I become engaged and disgusted thinking about it. That aside, though, it really is worth a watch.
Important to note that Chritopher Hitchens openly defended homosexuals when it was the norm to think that it was wrong, he was laughed at in auditoriums for having this position and did not give a single F. I think this is a big part of the reason for their friendship and Hitchens would be on panels with Fry talking about religions abuse of homosexuals and how much it disgusted him.
Once we notice that homosexuality is prevalent throughout the animal kingdom, the theist claim that such behaviour is a choice dissolves immediately. And so then should any subsequent loathing of this behaviour, given that it is consensual and harms nobody. This is merely one example of how science can absolutely inform our morality.
But let's also remember that Hutch's ego wouldn't allow him to admit he was wrong in supporting the lies of the mass murdering Cheney-Bush administration.
But let's also remember that Hutch's ego wouldn't allow him to admit he was wrong in supporting the lies of the mass murdering Cheney-Bush administration.
what makes this debate all the better is that he's arguing against Ann Widdecombe, a bigoted crone of a politician who converted to Catholicism in protest after the Anglican Church of England allowed women to become priests.
I am amazed at Ms. Widdecombe-the idea of a woman who would go from being Anglican to Roman Catholic just because the Anglican Church allows women to become full fledged priests is really sad.Ms. Widdecombe must have a lot of self-hatred.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy it doesn't surprise me that someone can hate themselves that much. Many women suffering under a certain religion (if you say the name of the religion the comment might go to the shadow realm) hate themselves, but even more than that, they hate women that aren't under their religion, to the point of wanting them to die.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy Also, to "yes-and", here she is, acting *basically* in the same capacity as a Priest. 1Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach....but to be in silence. So, she broke from the Church of England b/c it is allowing woman to "teach"...in order to join the Catholic Church and be up on a podium and teach.
I got a leaflet through the door before the election with Anne Widdecombe recommending that the people of Northern Ireland vote for TUV who were endorsed by Her and Farage (Reform). She just keeps getting worse
@@haraldschuster3067 Pretty much just your typical out of touch, far right toff. No idea how she gets invited to debates like this, it's like inviting a monkey to a fancy dinner party.
@@haraldschuster3067 She was campaigning for Reform. Fortunately, the places I remember hearing she went were still miles off of getting their candidate in.
The combination of Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens is absolutely deadly. I highly recommend to also listen to Hitchens talks. His "slaps" are legendary.
I think it's perfectly valid to talk about your own experience here. More than that, I thought it was incredibly informative and interesting to hear about your experience. Thanks for sharing!
Heide, I appreciate the fact that you don't shun away from the "heavier" and more important topics on your channel. So many YT'ers do, for fear of loosing subscribers I guess. Your personal experiences and views always add to the value of the videos you react to, and in my opinion that's how it should be. I'm not so much a fan of "watch alongs". My respect.
I love how he clears up that he is going to talk about the facts of history around the church but he is not attacking the individuals for their belief. He is not coming at the person, but rather trying to air out the dirty laundry of church. Thank you for adding your "You're taught to be faithful and being faithful to a religion is the complete opposite of being open minded", that is such a good quote, and so true. Being ready to shut down or being ready to 'correct' someone is not the same as being ready to listen. It is not the same as hearing someone out and then and only then challenging them with your beliefs. If you are always ready to fight, you are never ready to learn.
Highly recommend watching the entire debate. Both Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens argue passionately but with fact, logic and reasoning. Ann Widdecombe is a British politician and she can not match the intellect of either Fry or Hitchens and is nowhere near as good a communicator and it really stands out when she speaks. It was years ago when I first saw it and I still kinda feel sorry for the Bishop they had next to Widdecombe. It was like he was given zero warning about what was about to happen. Loved your reaction to this and being open with your perspective. Thank you 🤗
I couldn't feel sorry for either of the Catholics.. because they both showed a remarkable lack of humility. I don't think many Catholics would be impressed by the defense they got. I think many Catholics would would agree with Fry and Hitchens here and be ashamed of their own religion for much of what they were accused of - usually the followers of a religion are much more reasonable than the leaders.
@@jonasfermefors Well, i would need to watch the entire discussion in order to see wether or not i (as an Roman Catholic sample) would be impressed by the defense. However, i would say that in this clip Stephen Fry massively misrepresented the Roman Catholic Church, so ad hoc i don't see much need for any defense; though i would hope they pointed out the errors and misconceptions (at least exemplary): - That there is nothing that the catholic church and its hierachs liked to do more, than to attack the enlightenment is false though not entirely. For example Cardinal Maffeo Barberini (= Pope Urban VIII) actively supported Galileo Galilei until he suspected being ridiculed as the 'Simplicio' in the book 'Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World'. The point is, there are two groups in the Roman Catholic Church. Those who want to interpret as much of the bible literally as possible (fundamentalists) and those who seperate theology and natural philosophy (including science) as much as possible. Here the first group would fit Stephen Fry's description pretty, while the second (and typically larger) group enabled and supported the enlightenment. - Limbo is no official doctrine, it's hypothetical, though part of the teaching, which includes mutiple contradicting hypothetical ideas; everyone is invited to believe or not believe any of those hypotheticals. - Purgatory is suggested for example on Basis on 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, which is in the (catholic) bible. - The idea that paying money could ensure that a dead loved one, your baby, yourself or anyone goes to heaven is most probably false at least if he meant to speak about Indulgence (which i suspect here). Paying indulgences more or less provides remission of the temporal punishments due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven; it wasn't meant to forgive sins or avoid the eternal punishment. (It's also more or less a fundamentalist thing, though the line is not that clear on this one). - Transsubstantiation neither changes the molecules of the wine into blood, nor the molecules of bread into flesh. In modern language transsubstantiation claims to change the essence of wine and bread into blood and flesh, not the actual matter. - Misrepresented the "Extra ecclesiam nula salus" doctrine, which essentially is the idea that if you were (at some point in time) part of the church (in a loose sense of having heard the essential doctrines and dogmas of the church) and you don't remain in the church then you won't be saved. (It was formulated under two assumptions. First, that the church was successfull in reaching every human in the world with those information, which turned out to be false when someone (re)discovered America. Second that everyone who hears all those informations automatically beliefs in it's truthness, which is the next that turned out to be false - don't ask me how anyone can believe the second assumption in the first place; at least they wrote all that down in the Council of Florence in 1438 to 1445, so nobody needs to assume that to be true until both assumed conditions are true (which is expected to happen somewhere in the future - when everyone will be resurrected for some time). - and so on.
@@derwolf7810 Oh my ... What about the rape of children? Is that a misrepresentation as well? Archbishop Woelki of Cologne tried stop the release of a report about sexual abuse of children whilst getting a new report set up to be used instead (the German police was investigating), the response of the vatican was that he did do nothing wrong. And that is just one example of how vile the catholic church is. There are countless victims of the church who were raped when they were children by members of the church just in Germany, and they tried to hide it, Fry read the letter of the pope Ratzinger as a perfect example. Worldwide there are a lot more victims of this church who were raped as children. Rather interesting how Woelki, Ratzinger, Tebartz van Elst with his luxurious bathroom including a bathtub made out of gold (what would Jesus think about this lifestyle of the wealthy church members?), and so on all look like mentally disturbed people. Go figure. What about the women? What is the reason for denying them to become archbishops, the pope or anything more really than just a nun? Are they just so plain evil, that they cannot be trusted with positions of power in this church, but child molesters can be trusted and need to be protected?
@@ronaldderooij1774 just what I was going to say. It is surprising that he hasn't been, which leads me to think he may well have been offered and refused. but maybe not. he is pals with the royals, he is a monarchist.
@@jackabalas I don't know Mr. Fry well enough, so I wonder what his opinions on monarchy ans aristocracy are? And what are the monarchy's and aristocracy's opinions on him?
Being from Ireland we were always seen as a good Catholic country. For many centuries we were oppressed by the church. But with the onset of child abuse, hypocrisy a and corruption cover ups we have finally awakened. We have had three significant referendums the first on divorce then equal marriage and finally abortion rights. All of which you can imagine the church campaigned against. All of these referendums easily passed and guess what? The world hasn't ended and it made a lot of people happy.
I'm a giant introvert but those Referenda got me out on the street knocking on thousands of doors, managing digital media campaigns and websites, speaking to everyone I could meet, all in a largely conservative part of Ireland. It was such an exciting time for Ireland, seeing people of all ages come together in a largely positive and energetic national campaign and it worked! Ireland changed irrecoverably overnight. The Catholic Church is still an important institution for many people here and it's certainly still a big part of our culture but now I think it's safe to say we're finally getting over any lingering hangups imposed upon us, as a people, by the Church. I know some might see this as a bit dramatic but to me those Referenda felt like a re-birth for Ireland.
I was raised as Mormon, baptised at 8 and I'm so glad I discovered the nature of evidence and critical thinking at a young age so threw out any dogma I had!
Stephen Fry is a modern-day intellectual, with wide ranging knowledge across a staggering level of topics. I totally agree with his argument and logic.
They don't critic the Christianity, who is a religious belief. They critic the church. The political institution saying be representative and leader of it. Very different 😉
@@PeterRobertsson dont we ALL get indoctinated by those who raise us though? Regardless of being religious or not! Take people drinking alcohol for example...thats really bad for you but children grow up seeing mummy n daddy do it so they do when theyre older which kills them sooner. Surely thats abusive too? At the end of the day, we are all imperfect trying our best for the next generation. Religion can be abusive and toxic OR beautiful and adds to society dependant on how it is taught...just as atheism or being agnostic or whatever
I wish people would think logically about what they are doing when they scare children with the threat of hell. They somehow make it a good thing to do when I am disgusted by it.
The end of this debate was spectacular. They polled the audience on arrival, asking them whether they believed the Catholic Church was a force for good. They polled them again at the end of the debate. I'm not going to spoil it in case you choose to watch the whole thing, but I will say it's very worth watching.
That whole debate is well worth a watch - highly recommended! They actually measure the opinions of the audience on the topic both before and after the debate, so they show whether or how people were swayed.
On your regular binge sponsored by our good old TH-cam algorithm and stumbled upon your video. Good stuff, especially in the context of an ex-mormon. What I absolutely adore about Fry is the fact(s) that he doesn't offend, he doesn't curse, he actually uses some rather posh words, but the burns... OMG the effin burns !!!
Hitch and Fry are to of my bedate heroes..both being great in this discussion. Hitch has an analytical filleting knife approach whereas Fry has a very passionate emotional pleading style.. a great complementary set of tools
Stephen Fry is a true british national treasure. This segment of the entire debate is just a small part of the absolute brilliance that comes from Fry's mouth, and the same goes for the late Christopher Hitchins.
At the start of this debate they polled the audience on the question, and they did it again at the end. The swing was so great that the undecided at the beginning wasn't nearly enough to account for the increase in those who disagreed that the Catholic church was a force for good. Minds were well and truly changed that day.
My own father was excommunicated just for marrying my protestant mother, who would not sign off that all issue would be brought up in the Catholic church. As a kid I would attend mass on holidays to assuage my grandmother. As a teenager I attended Sunday school, but that was mostly just to meet girls. My father was actually relieved by his separation from the church because it meant that he didn't need to get up early on Sunday.
As someone who grew up in a Roman Catholic family with a very devout father,l find your story fascinating.I remember my mother saying how,as a teenager,she was very frustrated because the priest in her church told her and her fellow congregants that they couldn’t date Protestants.
I was lucky enough to be at this debate with my Wife (who asked a question at the end about not being able to leave the Church) suffice to say it was a massive win for Stephen and Hitch, who I was lucky enough to meet afterwards. Definitely watch the whole debate, it was fantastic.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy it certainly was, Ann Widdecombe couldn’t get out of there quick enough when it ended and pretty much barged my wife out the way to get to the door 😂
Very very true 👍👍👍👍👍👍Dear Lady I am Bavarian a catholic empire, and i quit after 64 years of hesitating but it was the right thing to do 😊😊 Thank you for touching this subject 👍👍 Now on the other hand as you might know I am german and at Kindergarten we had Nuns , The most caring wonderfull women i ever met. They sung songs with us at a campfire ,played soccer , listend to a small child sorrows, i loved them . We called them Aunt and we loved them ❤❤ Best clip you Lady ever did thank you 👍👍😊😊
Outstanding! I've seen this debate. Duh! But I'm definitely watching this as I want to see Heidi's reaction. I'm also curious to know if I might of had a hand in Heidi's choice?🙃🤔😘
I would not want to be in a debate about religion against both Fry and Hitchens. Not even if Jesus himself went back down to earth to be my debate partner and the holy ghost wispered devine lines in my ear.
You missed the very best part of Stephen Fry's speech. Where he ends with if the church didn't know better then what are they for? You should DEFINITELY go back and watch that part.
I would recommend a video from Breaking in the Habit or Catholicism in focus, a channel by a Catholic Franciscan friar. He has great informative videos that explain the nuances and misconceptions people tend to have with Catholicism, some of which I heard Stephen mention in his speech.
I have watched this discussion so many times! I get moved everytime I hear Stephen Fry speak. Such depth, honesty, and bravery is, to me, so inspiring!
It's great you appreciate Stephen Fry. The heavyweight in this debate is Christopher Hitchens. That's why Stephen referenced "Hitch" in his first few sentances.
Thank you, Stephen Fry is a world treasure. Sometimes it takes a person out of the norm to recognise and clearly communicate what we all know deep down but can't put our finger on it or express it. Loved the reaction.
Hello! Caught another video of yours, so found you on my feed, and had never seen this Fry speech/talk. He is such a personable speaker, it draws you in. Enjoying your content, excellent work on the reaction, unlike some it really added to the conversation. Be well, and CHEERS!!
In the swimming pool of wisdom, I'm afraid I am too timid to leave the shallow end and can only watch as Stephen gracefully swims lengths having expertly executed a perfect dive and considerately circumnavigating those of us wary of getting in too deep.
I'd argue that comedians are a legitimate style of Philosopher in this day in age. Pryor, Hicks, Carlin, etc. The intelligent ones. Not all comedians, but the ones who make you think about social norms and challenge common ideas and ways of life.
You didn’t seem to recognize the reference to Hitch (Christopher Hitchens), but any of the many videos of him speaking or debating will change your world. Thanks for your endeavors.
16:48 If you want to learn more about the scandals of the Catholic Church being referenced here, maybe a good place to start is the Academy Award winning movie Spotlight.
Great movie! Seeing the scandal in one fragment of one part of the country expose the systematic and institutional horror of child r4p3 allowed in its ranks, and virtually almost endorsed by its leaders.
My mother, who died three years ago. Had to spend four years with those 'pious' catholic nuns, just after WWII. She told me a few weeks just before her death, with great tears of sorrow and pain, that the four years with these 'pious' catholic nuns were much more horrible than the five years of war. She lived in Belgium.
For those who were not aware, the Ratzinger that Fry keeps referring to it Pope Benedict, that last pope. Not 50 years ago; the last pope. Ratzinger was his pre-pope given name. Same name he used when he was in the Hitl_r Youth as a boy during ww2...
@@Crimethoughtfull lol pretty similar facial features. Benedict's nickname was "The Enforcer" for his strict doctrine. It's his words that made me renounce the church and leave it
@@vaevictis6990 Wow, that's amazing! Out of all the memes and stuff, I had no idea he had the name "The Enforcer". That's wild! Congrats on freeing yourself. 🙂
As a free thinking liberal Briton who constantly worries and struggles about what is right and wrong, I can’t express strongly enough how proud I am to live in a time when we have people like Stephen and Christopher (sadly no more of course) to speak out from a position of intellectual purity on these difficult topics. I love to see people who don’t know Stephen listen to him for the first time and gradually become aware that they are in the presence of someone who is unique in his ability to present a structured but passionate, articulate but simple, case, for something he strongly believes. I also love that many of the people i have seen on TH-cam reacting to him are Americans and it gives me some hope - in the time of Trump and of argument by personal attack rather than true debate - that there are Americans who are open-minded enough to listen to true intelligence and take the arguments on their merits rather than stick to a position that they have (probably) been indoctrinated into without being able to think for themselves, and to make their minds up on the basis of the argument put before them. Thank you Heidi for giving me some hope.
It's like having an old friend over. Straight white male, maybe - but I can not deny a love and admiration of Stephen and Christopher's talent for putting their thoughts into words a pleb like me can understand.
The fact that Catholic church had the practice of paying the indulgence, pardoning of sins, was one of the reasons Martin Luther started the protestant reformation. It was really a practice of greed and profit and he said only God has the power pardon sins.
@@mikitymike This is correct, indulgences were sold on the idea of reducing the punishment for sins already forgiven. But the OP's point still stands. By Luther's time they were nothing more than a means of raising funds for vanity projects. It was some particularly aggressive salesmanship aimed at extracting money to pay for improvements to St Peters in Rome that prompted Luther to nail his 95 theses to the door of the church at Wittenberg.
@@richardfurness7556 op is still not correct because the Catholic Church never sold indulgences. Indulgences were granted for various acts of charity, which naturally included almsgiving. However the church was always clear that if you could not afford to give alms, you could even just say a prayer for the Pope's intentions. Luther did not just have a problem with "selling indulgences", he outright denied papal authority, a core dogma of Catholicism. He made up his own doctrine and broke away from the church.
19:33 'seeing the audience members you can tell who is on board with him." at first, those clapping and those not. Then I noticed those not clapping with giant smiles on their faces.
Spotlight won the academy award for best picture in 2015. It is a film about the Boston Globe"s exposure of catholic priests abuse in Boston . It also explains about cardinal law's involvement. Great movie.
This shows you what a terrific writer Stephen Fry is. I recommend you seek out his work with best friend and comedy comrade, Hugh Laurie - namely their BBC sketch show, _Fry and Laurie_ .
When he said at @16:30 on-- "For me to be called a pervert by these extraordinarily sexually dysfunctional people...", the chorus of "Click Click Boom" (by Saliva) ran thru my head... In the Munk debates he likened his approach to that of a 'scattergun'; here he delivered a mortal wounding to the Cat-holics (like an alcoholic, but addicted to, well, you know!! 🤨 Eschew obfuscation! And as always, Blessed Be, & Peace! 🙏☮
Don't know where this quote comes from, but I always come back to it when discussing religion. It goes "Have your faith, but question your religion. Because religion is a construct of man, and man is fallible".
My only problem with religion is that it influences politics. Believe in whatever fantastical bullshit you want, but democratic governments are run on facts and numbers and logical analysis of data... religion sort of stands in the way of all of that.
Stephen Fry is always worth listening to. He never rants and raves against injustice and bigotry, he gives quiet, considered, and incredibly well informed arguments to support his views. That one phrase "That´s not nice" strikes deeper than any swear words.
Unfortunately there are many people who are too scared of the unknown or the idea of facing the end of their existence that they need to cling to some kind of spiritual or religious belief system just to give them the strength they need day to day. And whenever there is someone in need, there is always someone else looking to take advantage of their needs.
It was on the basis of Christian religion that the war against slavery, and the beginning of true equality began. Yes, it would have been nice if it began from plain moral decency alone, but it didn't. It was done on Christian moral grounds. Specifically.
Paying money was why the protestants separated from the catholics. That was Martin Luther's main issue, that despite charity and helping others, only those who had wealth or rich loved ones could make it to Heaven, despite nothing about that being in the Bible. That's the primary issue. The second main issue in Luther's thesis was indeed the language of the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible is it said that God wanted it in Latin AND the original new testament was written in Greek and Aramaic (and the old in Hebrew)... those things are exactly why the protestants went to war against the Pope. That said the protestants have many many issues, like the witch burnings and such, but still the founding thesis has very good points about the Catholics.
@@mariannehavisham8323 Sure, but if you open-minded enough to _seriously_ consider the possibility that your religion may not be true, then you're almost by definition not being entirely faithful to your religion. And vice versa: The most rabid believers will not allow themselves even the tiniest iota of doubt.
@ulodetero I don't think that's a sign of being unfaithful. I think that's called maturity and you have a very immature and childish and shallow faith if it can't cope with questioning and a belief in a very small God if God can't cope with questioning. This is not the case in Judaism or in true Christianity really. There is plenty of rageing/railing against God and despair and questioning in the psalms (King David). Jesus questions God on the cross in his final words. And one of the apostles is nicknamed 'Thomas the doubter' you speak as if the only way to be religeous is to be fundamentalist when that REALLY is not the case, it suggests also religeous people are uneducated or stupid, this is a stereotype and cliche but fundamentalists while being loud are not representative, they are just good at making a lot of noise I'd say the opposite, any one who hasn't questioned the possibility they could be wrong does not have a serious faith. It lacks maturity, roots, legs, it is shallow, if it can be knocked down so easily, it is a sign of insecurity. People with a robust faith are not so insecure that they can't cope with questioning. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Welby, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu spoke on this. They are/were extremely prominent church leaders! I would say it not to be able to do that shows a lack of faithfulness and commitment, if you don't think your beliefs can stand up to scrutiny then that displays a lack of faith in your beliefs and God if you think it is dangerous to shine a light upon them and they may disappear under close examination, that doesn't indicate faith, it indicates the opposite, DEEP insecurity I suspect that's partly why fundamentalists tend to be loud. If you make a lot of noise people won't see your insecurity/it's a pretty effective way of hiding that/covering it up -like a distraction technique -look over there -don't look over here
@@mariannehavisham8323 👍 I guess it depends on your specific definition of faith. As you described it, you see faith as a confidence that X is true based on evidence, rational thought, etc. Fair enough. But religious faith tends to be a _devotion_ to X regardless of evidence and in spite of any "demonic opposition", etc. As such, it is closed-minded. That's not to say that _all_ religion or faith, or _all_ religious people are closed-minded. Just that that tends to be the nature of the beast. I think it's been said that truly open-minded religious people don't remain religious for long. 😉 And yes, I think a lot of religious people are too afraid to truly examine their beliefs, due to a dutiful _devotion_ (faith) to their dogma.
@@ulodetero I never said I thought religeous faith was about evidence or rational thought although I know there is a place for both those things.. You still seem to think the only way to be religeous is to be a fundamentalist and fundamentalists are representative (they are not) the quote about religeous people being open minded not staying religeous I think is quite patronising and offensive and insulting to people of faith. As if the only reason a person would have a religeous belief is because they haven't really thought about it Again, it's the cliche that people of faith are uneducated or stupid which of course some are but that isn't representative and to act as if it is does people of faith a real disservice which is frustrating Sounds as if you'd had a limited or narrow experience of religeous people (I mean that they've all been of the same ilk) when of course there is huge range and diversity! Not meaning to be presumptuous but I'm basing that on things you've said You describe religiosity in a very narrow way which leads me to believe that's the exposure you've had, when of course religeous people aren't really like that because people aren't really like that and there is massive breadth Makes me sad when people talk as if Trump or Westborough Baptist Church etc are representative of Christianity. Or just like religeous people are always sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, more concerned about reputation then safety -of course I know all that exists -but it makes me sad when those are the only religeous people people have come across or heard of I would point to the theologian and Lutheran feminist pastor and lgbt ally Nadia Boltz Webber, God is Grey TH-cam channel -a Christian who has been through the deconstruction process but not lost her faith -also a feminist and lgbt ally, Semler (Grace Baldrige) lesbian evangelical Christian who has been through the deconstruction process, the lesbian evangelical theologian Vicky Beeching, Desmond Tutu, even Welby (Welby IS problematic, at the same time he is well educated, intelligent, has depth, and has lost a baby in a car crash and his faith and his wife and children's faith survived several personal tragedies not because they are shallow or unintelligent, uneducated, or didn't think about it and.. The Bible is full of people in pain questioning God, angry with God, not listening to God (Jonah, Job, David, Thomas, Jesus) so if Christians think doubt has no place in faith they haven't read the Bible very closely
I remember walking in the presence of St. Pauls in Rome. All I could think was: This was all built while most of the believers who paid for it wallowed in abject poverty. The Catholic church was built on the foundation that if your give to the church everything that would let you live a decent life and obey your god anointed king you might be free of the suffering we make you endure in this life in the next life (if you are obedient enough). Constantine was the first to realize that god asking for your obedience to the emperor was more powerful than the emperor asking for obedience to himself and we have all been suffering ever since. Just like in everything else, people ruin things that start out good.
The doctrine of the faith, which Ratzinger was prefect of is the new name for the Inquisition. They changed the name because of the dark shadow that surrounded it for centuaries, but it still exists to this very day.
Gotta love Stephen Fry! One of my true heroes in life! Heidi, since you are a "Formon" like me, you should watch Stephen Fry's very brief video on visiting Temple Square. It'll really make you laugh! I think it's titled something like "Mormon Encounter | Big Think."
Great commentary. Youre tempted, I know, to go down the rabbit hole of Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens videos.. and that rabbit hole is a very fine thing indeed. Do it!
As a non-fundamentalist Christian and pagan, Stephen Fry will always have a special place in my heart. A national treasure he is 🥰. Thank you for watching his debate. And as many have said, definitely give the full debate a watch. Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens were amazing.
I'm fully atheist but I read the Bible and wouldn't want a world without diversity and religions. Important to keep 'feeling the future' and wondering what things we might discover to be true that surprise us.
Stephen Fry is an amazing man - I could listen to him for hours! On the topic of religion, my first girlfriend (and her family) were Seventh Day Adventists (mostly due to her grandmother), their restrictions were ridiculous to me - adults were expected (!) to 'tithe' at least 10% of their income to the church, they had to not work after sunset on Fridays (which required a very understanding employer!), as they went to Church on Saturday (her father was able to do overtime on Sundays though!) - their church has its own food production factories turning out vegetarian sausages, etc! Also, oddly at the time - they were the only (or one of a couple) of white families in their local church!
Stephen Fry is so freakin' Brainy...even if I barely recognize half his references, he makes my brain feel good, like his words are feeding my brain. Plus he's all British and charming and stuff. ;-)
Fry hates Catholics because he is a homosexual Jew. But the entire debate was a setup where the anti Catholics chose who they debated; an unfashionable Conservative convert and a African Bishop. Next time let the Catholics pick their best and brightest. Fry is dishonest because for example in the debate he attacks St Thomas More, the English martyr, for being narrow minded and authoritarian. And yet the truth is that, for his time, More was very fair and a renowned intellectual who, against the culture of the time, raised his daughter to be one of the most educated people in England. He was a famous author who coined many words such as Utopia, that are common today. And he died for his beliefs. Even Fry's hero Oscar Wilde was fascinated by Catholicism and became one on his deathbed. Can you even imagine a similar debate where the word Catholic is replaced with the word Jew or Jewish
So a Bishop that's African, you automatically know isn't the catholic church's best and brightest? Your argument is simply attacking the sexuality and ethnicity of the the person presenting the argument says alot. Here's the question how could the best and brightest deny undeniable facts that Stephen Fry stated? I don't have to imagine I've seen those debates about the Jewish faith. It just so happens a large portion of the world was colonized by Catholics. The Catholic church had his hand in slave trade, they sided with the Nazis, destroyed and warped cultures all over the world.
I adore the way Stephen Fry constructs sentences. As foolish as it sounds on it's face his deliberate "dumbing down" of the phrase "If he said what he's said to have said", it's such a precise and amusing turn. It makes me smile every time.
A beautiful part of the extended video. The participants were asked to vote on the question on the way in. 50/50 on the way out 20/80 I would love to see a follow-up, as a devout agnostic that meditates in a Catholic Church. Ongoing Joke with the priest "Found it yet, nah still a no"
Thanks for your fantastic reaction. I was brought up as an Irish Catholic, whose younger Brother lives in SLC, married to a lax Mormon - a wonderful person, who doesn’t need a religion to know right from wrong. React to Tommy Tiernan - Australian priest - very entertaining.
Also, I love your reaction. It is pretty similar to mine when I was leaving religion--it is such a balancing act. It is super hard to criticize the ideas within religion w/o criticizing the people, b/c there's this weird thing where we tie our idea of personal identity with the ideas we hold. Besides cultural peer pressure (like growing up in Oklahoma), this internalization of ideas is maybe the hardest hurdle to cross.
Martin Luther was big thing in church divide.. you know now, when some were catholics and others were not.. those 'others' others grew up to be not in HRE, not catholics..tbh, pope gave england coolio for like a decade that led to the fall of catholic church, that is still ongoing.
I strongly encourage you to watch the film The Mission. Commercially it really didn't do very well but in my humble opinion it is an epic film and deserves far more recognition than it got. It was nominated for 7 Academy Awards, including best original score, it won 1 Oscar, for cinematography. I was about 16 when I saw it in about 1988. It has a stellar cast, it is incredibly well filmed, and has an enthralling musical store composed by Ennio Morricone. The subject matter however, is related to Stephen Fry's first point, about history. It portrays the role of the Jesuits, part of the Roman Catholic Church, and their mission to spread their religion into South America. It also depicts the Spanish slave trade too, and I still remember feeling emotionally drained as the final credits rolled.
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Oh, for this debate, I highly recommend to watch the entire debate. You’d get to experience one of Christopher Hitchens best and most powerful speeches.
one amongst many. Hitch was brutal
Christopher left behind many beautiful _Hitch Slaps_ for us to enjoy!
I also highly recommend watching the entire debate, and to add to that, a particular stand out moment for me was Fry's 'rebuttal', a little later, it is just a beautifully eloquent and scathing condemnation of the _idea_ that the Catholic Church can even be considered a force for good.
Also, trigger warning? I guess... Depending on how much thought you give to Anne Widicombe's statements, during the audience question section, you may find yourself staving off apologetic rage... I did, I assume I'm probably not unique in that.
I was genuinely furiously disgusted with what she said, I become engaged and disgusted thinking about it.
That aside, though, it really is worth a watch.
I was going to say the same thing. She really should watch the whole debate Especially if she's not familiar with Hitch !
Are you being sardonic Bill Hicks?
Important to note that Chritopher Hitchens openly defended homosexuals when it was the norm to think that it was wrong, he was laughed at in auditoriums for having this position and did not give a single F. I think this is a big part of the reason for their friendship and Hitchens would be on panels with Fry talking about religions abuse of homosexuals and how much it disgusted him.
Good to know.
Once we notice that homosexuality is prevalent throughout the animal kingdom, the theist claim that such behaviour is a choice dissolves immediately. And so then should any subsequent loathing of this behaviour, given that it is consensual and harms nobody.
This is merely one example of how science can absolutely inform our morality.
@@godisbollocks that still doesn't give us an "ought". Science can only tell you what is, not what you ought to do. Atheists seriously lack wisdom.
But let's also remember that Hutch's ego wouldn't allow him to admit he was wrong in supporting the lies of the mass murdering Cheney-Bush administration.
But let's also remember that Hutch's ego wouldn't allow him to admit he was wrong in supporting the lies of the mass murdering Cheney-Bush administration.
what makes this debate all the better is that he's arguing against Ann Widdecombe, a bigoted crone of a politician who converted to Catholicism in protest after the Anglican Church of England allowed women to become priests.
I am amazed at Ms. Widdecombe-the idea of a woman who would go from being Anglican to Roman Catholic just because the Anglican Church allows women to become full fledged priests is really sad.Ms. Widdecombe must have a lot of self-hatred.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy it doesn't surprise me that someone can hate themselves that much. Many women suffering under a certain religion (if you say the name of the religion the comment might go to the shadow realm) hate themselves, but even more than that, they hate women that aren't under their religion, to the point of wanting them to die.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy Also, to "yes-and", here she is, acting *basically* in the same capacity as a Priest. 1Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach....but to be in silence. So, she broke from the Church of England b/c it is allowing woman to "teach"...in order to join the Catholic Church and be up on a podium and teach.
I got a leaflet through the door before the election with Anne Widdecombe recommending that the people of Northern Ireland vote for TUV who were endorsed by Her and Farage (Reform). She just keeps getting worse
@@Crimethoughtfull Most fundies are like that. "These rules are for thee but not for me."
Hitchslaps make me happy, Widdecombe makes me hurl, and Fry keeps me humble. Good choice!
It's a well rounded debate 🙂
Widdecombe is a terrible human being.
@@TalkieToaster. She's also an Arch-Brexiteer and currently with Reform, isn't she?
@@haraldschuster3067 Pretty much just your typical out of touch, far right toff.
No idea how she gets invited to debates like this, it's like inviting a monkey to a fancy dinner party.
@@haraldschuster3067 She was campaigning for Reform. Fortunately, the places I remember hearing she went were still miles off of getting their candidate in.
The combination of Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens is absolutely deadly. I highly recommend to also listen to Hitchens talks. His "slaps" are legendary.
I think it's perfectly valid to talk about your own experience here. More than that, I thought it was incredibly informative and interesting to hear about your experience. Thanks for sharing!
Yes. She is quite brave throwing that on YT but I believe it adds to her umm I can't find the words so I will say "Mana". And my respect for her.
Heide, I appreciate the fact that you don't shun away from the "heavier" and more important topics on your channel. So many YT'ers do, for fear of loosing subscribers I guess. Your personal experiences and views always add to the value of the videos you react to, and in my opinion that's how it should be. I'm not so much a fan of "watch alongs". My respect.
Oh I totally agree here. She has my respect also.
I love how he clears up that he is going to talk about the facts of history around the church but he is not attacking the individuals for their belief. He is not coming at the person, but rather trying to air out the dirty laundry of church. Thank you for adding your "You're taught to be faithful and being faithful to a religion is the complete opposite of being open minded", that is such a good quote, and so true. Being ready to shut down or being ready to 'correct' someone is not the same as being ready to listen. It is not the same as hearing someone out and then and only then challenging them with your beliefs. If you are always ready to fight, you are never ready to learn.
Highly recommend watching the entire debate. Both Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens argue passionately but with fact, logic and reasoning. Ann Widdecombe is a British politician and she can not match the intellect of either Fry or Hitchens and is nowhere near as good a communicator and it really stands out when she speaks. It was years ago when I first saw it and I still kinda feel sorry for the Bishop they had next to Widdecombe. It was like he was given zero warning about what was about to happen. Loved your reaction to this and being open with your perspective. Thank you 🤗
Christopher Hitchens on Mother Teresa. buckle up.. th-cam.com/video/T5fc2iidZtA/w-d-xo.html
I couldn't feel sorry for either of the Catholics.. because they both showed a remarkable lack of humility. I don't think many Catholics would be impressed by the defense they got. I think many Catholics would would agree with Fry and Hitchens here and be ashamed of their own religion for much of what they were accused of - usually the followers of a religion are much more reasonable than the leaders.
@@jonasfermefors Well, i would need to watch the entire discussion in order to see wether or not i (as an Roman Catholic sample) would be impressed by the defense.
However, i would say that in this clip Stephen Fry massively misrepresented the Roman Catholic Church, so ad hoc i don't see much need for any defense; though i would hope they pointed out the errors and misconceptions (at least exemplary):
- That there is nothing that the catholic church and its hierachs liked to do more, than to attack the enlightenment is false though not entirely. For example Cardinal Maffeo Barberini (= Pope Urban VIII) actively supported Galileo Galilei until he suspected being ridiculed as the 'Simplicio' in the book 'Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World'. The point is, there are two groups in the Roman Catholic Church. Those who want to interpret as much of the bible literally as possible (fundamentalists) and those who seperate theology and natural philosophy (including science) as much as possible. Here the first group would fit Stephen Fry's description pretty, while the second (and typically larger) group enabled and supported the enlightenment.
- Limbo is no official doctrine, it's hypothetical, though part of the teaching, which includes mutiple contradicting hypothetical ideas; everyone is invited to believe or not believe any of those hypotheticals.
- Purgatory is suggested for example on Basis on 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, which is in the (catholic) bible.
- The idea that paying money could ensure that a dead loved one, your baby, yourself or anyone goes to heaven is most probably false at least if he meant to speak about Indulgence (which i suspect here). Paying indulgences more or less provides remission of the temporal punishments due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven; it wasn't meant to forgive sins or avoid the eternal punishment. (It's also more or less a fundamentalist thing, though the line is not that clear on this one).
- Transsubstantiation neither changes the molecules of the wine into blood, nor the molecules of bread into flesh. In modern language transsubstantiation claims to change the essence of wine and bread into blood and flesh, not the actual matter.
- Misrepresented the "Extra ecclesiam nula salus" doctrine, which essentially is the idea that if you were (at some point in time) part of the church (in a loose sense of having heard the essential doctrines and dogmas of the church) and you don't remain in the church then you won't be saved. (It was formulated under two assumptions. First, that the church was successfull in reaching every human in the world with those information, which turned out to be false when someone (re)discovered America. Second that everyone who hears all those informations automatically beliefs in it's truthness, which is the next that turned out to be false - don't ask me how anyone can believe the second assumption in the first place; at least they wrote all that down in the Council of Florence in 1438 to 1445, so nobody needs to assume that to be true until both assumed conditions are true (which is expected to happen somewhere in the future - when everyone will be resurrected for some time).
- and so on.
@@derwolf7810 Oh my ...
What about the rape of children? Is that a misrepresentation as well? Archbishop Woelki of Cologne tried stop the release of a report about sexual abuse of children whilst getting a new report set up to be used instead (the German police was investigating), the response of the vatican was that he did do nothing wrong. And that is just one example of how vile the catholic church is. There are countless victims of the church who were raped when they were children by members of the church just in Germany, and they tried to hide it, Fry read the letter of the pope Ratzinger as a perfect example. Worldwide there are a lot more victims of this church who were raped as children. Rather interesting how Woelki, Ratzinger, Tebartz van Elst with his luxurious bathroom including a bathtub made out of gold (what would Jesus think about this lifestyle of the wealthy church members?), and so on all look like mentally disturbed people. Go figure.
What about the women? What is the reason for denying them to become archbishops, the pope or anything more really than just a nun? Are they just so plain evil, that they cannot be trusted with positions of power in this church, but child molesters can be trusted and need to be protected?
Wait … Widdecomb … isn’t that the brexiteer who told people to eat turnips in that Marie Antoinette manner ?
I would like to have Stephen knighted in the UK
I would fully support that.
@@KrayGuru It’s actually quite surprising to me that he isn’t already.
Interesting to see if he would accept it. I don't think so.
@@ronaldderooij1774 just what I was going to say. It is surprising that he hasn't been, which leads me to think he may well have been offered and refused. but maybe not. he is pals with the royals, he is a monarchist.
@@jackabalas I don't know Mr. Fry well enough, so I wonder what his opinions on monarchy ans aristocracy are? And what are the monarchy's and aristocracy's opinions on him?
Being from Ireland we were always seen as a good Catholic country. For many centuries we were oppressed by the church. But with the onset of child abuse, hypocrisy a and corruption cover ups we have finally awakened. We have had three significant referendums the first on divorce then equal marriage and finally abortion rights. All of which you can imagine the church campaigned against. All of these referendums easily passed and guess what? The world hasn't ended and it made a lot of people happy.
I think it's exactly that kind of change that has brought peace, far more than a bunch of politicians and their bits of paper.
It's a transformation i admire and if I was younger I would emigrate there
You incredible fool. Without the Catholic Church Ireland would not have survived centuries of oppression. You disgust me
I'm a giant introvert but those Referenda got me out on the street knocking on thousands of doors, managing digital media campaigns and websites, speaking to everyone I could meet, all in a largely conservative part of Ireland. It was such an exciting time for Ireland, seeing people of all ages come together in a largely positive and energetic national campaign and it worked! Ireland changed irrecoverably overnight. The Catholic Church is still an important institution for many people here and it's certainly still a big part of our culture but now I think it's safe to say we're finally getting over any lingering hangups imposed upon us, as a people, by the Church. I know some might see this as a bit dramatic but to me those Referenda felt like a re-birth for Ireland.
And now you have a mass migration problem 👍
I was raised as Mormon, baptised at 8 and I'm so glad I discovered the nature of evidence and critical thinking at a young age so threw out any dogma I had!
Do you think that USA unsecured borders help sex trafficking?
Stephen Fry is a modern-day intellectual, with wide ranging knowledge across a staggering level of topics. I totally agree with his argument and logic.
Apparently it's called ADHD
He isn't that moral when it comes to dismembered Palestinian babies
@@Michael-gm6ly has he been in Gaza killing children? Last I heard he was kinda against killing people, regardless of nationality, race, or religion
@@Michael-gm6ly what makes you say that?
No religion is above scrutiny I’m a Christian and I have no problem with people criticising Christianity
They don't critic the Christianity, who is a religious belief.
They critic the church. The political institution saying be representative and leader of it.
Very different 😉
new to 2024? some religions are more equal than others.
This debate was amazing. Stephen and Christopher did an impressive job. They are truly amazing speakers.
Religious indictrination is extreme abuse. Noone should be subject to religion(s) until they are adults, at least 18 years old. Thats it!
@@PeterRobertsson dont we ALL get indoctinated by those who raise us though? Regardless of being religious or not! Take people drinking alcohol for example...thats really bad for you but children grow up seeing mummy n daddy do it so they do when theyre older which kills them sooner. Surely thats abusive too? At the end of the day, we are all imperfect trying our best for the next generation. Religion can be abusive and toxic OR beautiful and adds to society dependant on how it is taught...just as atheism or being agnostic or whatever
i liked colouring in pictures of jesus and noah's ark at sunday school, and they had jammy dodgers(jam buscuits) i was 6,no problem.
I wish people would think logically about what they are doing when they scare children with the threat of hell. They somehow make it a good thing to do when I am disgusted by it.
The end of this debate was spectacular.
They polled the audience on arrival, asking them whether they believed the Catholic Church was a force for good.
They polled them again at the end of the debate.
I'm not going to spoil it in case you choose to watch the whole thing, but I will say it's very worth watching.
These are the best debate forums by far..
Stephen Fry doesn't dance along the surface of topics he chooses to examine. Always erudite and insightful.
That whole debate is well worth a watch - highly recommended! They actually measure the opinions of the audience on the topic both before and after the debate, so they show whether or how people were swayed.
On your regular binge sponsored by our good old TH-cam algorithm and stumbled upon your video. Good stuff, especially in the context of an ex-mormon.
What I absolutely adore about Fry is the fact(s) that he doesn't offend, he doesn't curse, he actually uses some rather posh words, but the burns... OMG the effin burns !!!
Very true.
A bit like calling someone S----urrr. Very true indeed.
Hitch and Fry are to of my bedate heroes..both being great in this discussion. Hitch has an analytical filleting knife approach whereas Fry has a very passionate emotional pleading style.. a great complementary set of tools
Stephen Fry is a true british national treasure. This segment of the entire debate is just a small part of the absolute brilliance that comes from Fry's mouth, and the same goes for the late Christopher Hitchins.
He's a bundle of sticks jew, not British at all.
@@hyzenthlay7151 He's gay so no
Oh man, I haven't seen this debate in years. Stephen is a great speaker. Now I need to go watch the whole thing, I need to hear the Hitchslaps.
At the start of this debate they polled the audience on the question, and they did it again at the end. The swing was so great that the undecided at the beginning wasn't nearly enough to account for the increase in those who disagreed that the Catholic church was a force for good. Minds were well and truly changed that day.
I remember how impactful that was.
Just here to add my voice to those suggesting Hitchens. The man is a legend.
Don’t forget the great Richard Dawkins
My own father was excommunicated just for marrying my protestant mother, who would not sign off that all issue would be brought up in the Catholic church. As a kid I would attend mass on holidays to assuage my grandmother. As a teenager I attended Sunday school, but that was mostly just to meet girls. My father was actually relieved by his separation from the church because it meant that he didn't need to get up early on Sunday.
As someone who grew up in a Roman Catholic family with a very devout father,l find your story fascinating.I remember my mother saying how,as a teenager,she was very frustrated because the priest in her church told her and her fellow congregants that they couldn’t date Protestants.
Your father strikes me as a very sensible man-growing up Catholic,it used to irk me to have to get up early on Sundays.
I was lucky enough to be at this debate with my Wife (who asked a question at the end about not being able to leave the Church) suffice to say it was a massive win for Stephen and Hitch, who I was lucky enough to meet afterwards. Definitely watch the whole debate, it was fantastic.
It must have been quite an experience.
@@BarryHart-xo1oy it certainly was, Ann Widdecombe couldn’t get out of there quick enough when it ended and pretty much barged my wife out the way to get to the door 😂
“If anybody can find someone to love them and to help them through this difficult thing that we call life, I support that in any shape or form.”
Very very true 👍👍👍👍👍👍Dear Lady
I am Bavarian a catholic empire, and i quit after 64 years of hesitating but it was the right thing to do 😊😊 Thank you for touching this subject 👍👍 Now on the other hand as you might know I am german and at Kindergarten we had Nuns , The most caring wonderfull women i ever met. They sung songs with us at a campfire ,played soccer , listend to a small child sorrows, i loved them .
We called them Aunt and we loved them ❤❤ Best clip you Lady ever did thank you 👍👍😊😊
is it true that in germany there's a church tax?
@@nilianstroy yepp
I can't believe that in 21 century some people still believe in religion..
Outstanding!
I've seen this debate. Duh!
But I'm definitely watching this as I want to see Heidi's reaction.
I'm also curious to know if I might of had a hand in Heidi's choice?🙃🤔😘
I honestly love that video. He's just laying into it in the most sophisticated way.
The two representing the catholic church were not prepared for this debate at all.
If you enjoy Fry you will LOVE Hitchens. Listening to him speak literally grows your brain. He was amazing
Hitchens, his co-debator in this debate is even more of a weapon. I recommend watching the whole part or do a similar piece on his part :)
Seconded. Hitchens is worth a listen on almost any subject.
I would not want to be in a debate about religion against both Fry and Hitchens. Not even if Jesus himself went back down to earth to be my debate partner and the holy ghost wispered devine lines in my ear.
@@gurkfisk89
For real! That was a powerful pair up of mighty minds!
You missed the very best part of Stephen Fry's speech. Where he ends with if the church didn't know better then what are they for? You should DEFINITELY go back and watch that part.
I would recommend a video from Breaking in the Habit or Catholicism in focus, a channel by a Catholic Franciscan friar. He has great informative videos that explain the nuances and misconceptions people tend to have with Catholicism, some of which I heard Stephen mention in his speech.
I have watched this discussion so many times! I get moved everytime I hear Stephen Fry speak. Such depth, honesty, and bravery is, to me, so inspiring!
It's great you appreciate Stephen Fry. The heavyweight in this debate is Christopher Hitchens. That's why Stephen referenced "Hitch" in his first few sentances.
Thank you, Stephen Fry is a world treasure.
Sometimes it takes a person out of the norm to recognise and clearly communicate what we all know deep down but can't put our finger on it or express it.
Loved the reaction.
I wouldn't mind watching her react to the whole debate. It's pretty good!
Hello! Caught another video of yours, so found you on my feed, and had never seen this Fry speech/talk. He is such a personable speaker, it draws you in. Enjoying your content, excellent work on the reaction, unlike some it really added to the conversation. Be well, and CHEERS!!
In the swimming pool of wisdom, I'm afraid I am too timid to leave the shallow end and can only watch as Stephen gracefully swims lengths having expertly executed a perfect dive and considerately circumnavigating those of us wary of getting in too deep.
Love your candidness & open mind to new avenues of what is really going on in the world 🙏🏻🇬🇧❤️xx
Heidi! I think you'd love Christopher Hitchens on free speech. Please check it out.
Excellent suggestion!
It's crazy to know that comedians make the BEST arguments.
I'd argue that comedians are a legitimate style of Philosopher in this day in age. Pryor, Hicks, Carlin, etc. The intelligent ones. Not all comedians, but the ones who make you think about social norms and challenge common ideas and ways of life.
@@xhighone Jon Stewart, Bill Mahr, John Oliver, Stephen Colbert, etc. These four alone are making more persuasive arguments than congress ever has.
@@fifis677 Stewart, Oliver, Mahr, and Colbert are great examples.
You didn’t seem to recognize the reference to Hitch (Christopher Hitchens), but any of the many videos of him speaking or debating will change your world. Thanks for your endeavors.
Don't apologize for drawing parallels to your own life experiences in the Mormon church - it's literally why we're here.
16:48 If you want to learn more about the scandals of the Catholic Church being referenced here, maybe a good place to start is the Academy Award winning movie Spotlight.
And "The Godfather, part III"
(Yes, the mafia-movie)..
Great movie! Seeing the scandal in one fragment of one part of the country expose the systematic and institutional horror of child r4p3 allowed in its ranks, and virtually almost endorsed by its leaders.
You have to stand in awe of how elegantly he gives voice to his thoughts. The man is a walking, talking thesaurus.
My mother, who died three years ago. Had to spend four years with those 'pious' catholic nuns, just after WWII. She told me a few weeks just before her death, with great tears of sorrow and pain, that the four years with these 'pious' catholic nuns were much more horrible than the five years of war. She lived in Belgium.
I respect people, but I can't bring myself to respect beliefs I hold in contempt
That might be a really good way of looking at things. 💜
I know what you mean.
"We couldnt know better because no one else did' THEN WHAT ARE YOU FOR?!
Legendary
For those who were not aware, the Ratzinger that Fry keeps referring to it Pope Benedict, that last pope. Not 50 years ago; the last pope. Ratzinger was his pre-pope given name. Same name he used when he was in the Hitl_r Youth as a boy during ww2...
I thought his name was Emperor Palpatine... 😉
Those memes were just too perfect!
@@Crimethoughtfull lol pretty similar facial features. Benedict's nickname was "The Enforcer" for his strict doctrine. It's his words that made me renounce the church and leave it
@@vaevictis6990 Wow, that's amazing! Out of all the memes and stuff, I had no idea he had the name "The Enforcer". That's wild! Congrats on freeing yourself. 🙂
As a free thinking liberal Briton who constantly worries and struggles about what is right and wrong, I can’t express strongly enough how proud I am to live in a time when we have people like Stephen and Christopher (sadly no more of course) to speak out from a position of intellectual purity on these difficult topics. I love to see people who don’t know Stephen listen to him for the first time and gradually become aware that they are in the presence of someone who is unique in his ability to present a structured but passionate, articulate but simple, case, for something he strongly believes. I also love that many of the people i have seen on TH-cam reacting to him are Americans and it gives me some hope - in the time of Trump and of argument by personal attack rather than true debate - that there are Americans who are open-minded enough to listen to true intelligence and take the arguments on their merits rather than stick to a position that they have (probably) been indoctrinated into without being able to think for themselves, and to make their minds up on the basis of the argument put before them. Thank you Heidi for giving me some hope.
It's like having an old friend over. Straight white male, maybe - but I can not deny a love and admiration of Stephen and Christopher's talent for putting their thoughts into words a pleb like me can understand.
I love intelligence, both of these guys have the knowledge and wit to burn, no pun intended
The fact that Catholic church had the practice of paying the indulgence, pardoning of sins, was one of the reasons Martin Luther started the protestant reformation.
It was really a practice of greed and profit and he said only God has the power pardon sins.
indulgences have nothing to do with pardoning sins, please stop spreading misinformation
@@mikitymike This is correct, indulgences were sold on the idea of reducing the punishment for sins already forgiven. But the OP's point still stands. By Luther's time they were nothing more than a means of raising funds for vanity projects. It was some particularly aggressive salesmanship aimed at extracting money to pay for improvements to St Peters in Rome that prompted Luther to nail his 95 theses to the door of the church at Wittenberg.
@@richardfurness7556 op is still not correct because the Catholic Church never sold indulgences. Indulgences were granted for various acts of charity, which naturally included almsgiving. However the church was always clear that if you could not afford to give alms, you could even just say a prayer for the Pope's intentions.
Luther did not just have a problem with "selling indulgences", he outright denied papal authority, a core dogma of Catholicism. He made up his own doctrine and broke away from the church.
@@mikitymike Stupid hair to split.
@@adamplentl5588 not a split hair, but a refutation of the central argument
19:33 'seeing the audience members you can tell who is on board with him." at first, those clapping and those not. Then I noticed those not clapping with giant smiles on their faces.
Spotlight won the academy award for best picture in 2015. It is a film about the Boston Globe"s exposure of catholic priests abuse in Boston . It also explains about cardinal law's involvement. Great movie.
I remember recommending this to you, i hope it was one of the comments that inspired this watch :)
I highly recommend "Spotlight" (2015), a movie about the Catholic Church in Chicago and the journalists who exposed it. Excellent movie 👍
@@Rachel_M_ boston
@@fredrikekastenholm8261 thanks for the correction. It's been a few years since i watched it.
Fantastic movie, seconded on that recommendation!
This shows you what a terrific writer Stephen Fry is. I recommend you seek out his work with best friend and comedy comrade, Hugh Laurie - namely their BBC sketch show, _Fry and Laurie_ .
I can't wait!
When he said at @16:30 on-- "For me to be called a pervert by these extraordinarily sexually dysfunctional people...", the chorus of "Click Click Boom" (by Saliva) ran thru my head... In the Munk debates he likened his approach to that of a 'scattergun'; here he delivered a mortal wounding to the Cat-holics (like an alcoholic, but addicted to, well, you know!! 🤨 Eschew obfuscation! And as always, Blessed Be, & Peace! 🙏☮
17:56 a religion that believes in abstinence also believe a virgin got pregnant
Stephen Fry is a global treasure.
Please watch Christopher Hitchens if you haven't done before
Don't know where this quote comes from, but I always come back to it when discussing religion. It goes "Have your faith, but question your religion. Because religion is a construct of man, and man is fallible".
My only problem with religion is that it influences politics. Believe in whatever fantastical bullshit you want, but democratic governments are run on facts and numbers and logical analysis of data... religion sort of stands in the way of all of that.
Stephen Fry is always worth listening to. He never rants and raves against injustice and bigotry, he gives quiet, considered, and incredibly well informed arguments to support his views. That one phrase "That´s not nice" strikes deeper than any swear words.
He's savage, I love it! 😂
I love Stephen Fry. He exudes warmth, compassion and intelligence. Great choice.
Religion is a blight on humanity
Unfortunately there are many people who are too scared of the unknown or the idea of facing the end of their existence that they need to cling to some kind of spiritual or religious belief system just to give them the strength they need day to day. And whenever there is someone in need, there is always someone else looking to take advantage of their needs.
I think for some time Rerligions was necessary for people. Now days its not. They feel like them losing the grip of ppl, so then they get desperate.
Truly.
Agreed, Scott. The irony being that religion is a man-made construct; humankind's worst enemy is humankind....
It was on the basis of Christian religion that the war against slavery, and the beginning of true equality began. Yes, it would have been nice if it began from plain moral decency alone, but it didn't. It was done on Christian moral grounds. Specifically.
Paying money was why the protestants separated from the catholics. That was Martin Luther's main issue, that despite charity and helping others, only those who had wealth or rich loved ones could make it to Heaven, despite nothing about that being in the Bible. That's the primary issue. The second main issue in Luther's thesis was indeed the language of the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible is it said that God wanted it in Latin AND the original new testament was written in Greek and Aramaic (and the old in Hebrew)... those things are exactly why the protestants went to war against the Pope.
That said the protestants have many many issues, like the witch burnings and such, but still the founding thesis has very good points about the Catholics.
"Being faithful to a religion is the complete opposite of being open-minded".
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I don't think that's true. I think you can be committed to your faith and open minded towards others
@@mariannehavisham8323 Sure, but if you open-minded enough to _seriously_ consider the possibility that your religion may not be true, then you're almost by definition not being entirely faithful to your religion.
And vice versa: The most rabid believers will not allow themselves even the tiniest iota of doubt.
@ulodetero I don't think that's a sign of being unfaithful. I think that's called maturity and you have a very immature and childish and shallow faith if it can't cope with questioning and a belief in a very small God if God can't cope with questioning. This is not the case in Judaism or in true Christianity really. There is plenty of rageing/railing against God and despair and questioning in the psalms (King David). Jesus questions God on the cross in his final words. And one of the apostles is nicknamed 'Thomas the doubter' you speak as if the only way to be religeous is to be fundamentalist when that REALLY is not the case, it suggests also religeous people are uneducated or stupid, this is a stereotype and cliche but fundamentalists while being loud are not representative, they are just good at making a lot of noise
I'd say the opposite, any one who hasn't questioned the possibility they could be wrong does not have a serious faith. It lacks maturity, roots, legs, it is shallow, if it can be knocked down so easily, it is a sign of insecurity.
People with a robust faith are not so insecure that they can't cope with questioning.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Welby, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu spoke on this. They are/were extremely prominent church leaders!
I would say it not to be able to do that shows a lack of faithfulness and commitment, if you don't think your beliefs can stand up to scrutiny then that displays a lack of faith in your beliefs and God if you think it is dangerous to shine a light upon them and they may disappear under close examination, that doesn't indicate faith, it indicates the opposite, DEEP insecurity
I suspect that's partly why fundamentalists tend to be loud. If you make a lot of noise people won't see your insecurity/it's a pretty effective way of hiding that/covering it up -like a distraction technique -look over there -don't look over here
@@mariannehavisham8323 👍
I guess it depends on your specific definition of faith.
As you described it, you see faith as a confidence that X is true based on evidence, rational thought, etc. Fair enough.
But religious faith tends to be a _devotion_ to X regardless of evidence and in spite of any "demonic opposition", etc. As such, it is closed-minded.
That's not to say that _all_ religion or faith, or _all_ religious people are closed-minded.
Just that that tends to be the nature of the beast.
I think it's been said that truly open-minded religious people don't remain religious for long. 😉
And yes, I think a lot of religious people are too afraid to truly examine their beliefs, due to a dutiful _devotion_ (faith) to their dogma.
@@ulodetero I never said I thought religeous faith was about evidence or rational thought although I know there is a place for both those things..
You still seem to think the only way to be religeous is to be a fundamentalist and fundamentalists are representative (they are not) the quote about religeous people being open minded not staying religeous I think is quite patronising and offensive and insulting to people of faith. As if the only reason a person would have a religeous belief is because they haven't really thought about it
Again, it's the cliche that people of faith are uneducated or stupid which of course some are but that isn't representative and to act as if it is does people of faith a real disservice which is frustrating
Sounds as if you'd had a limited or narrow experience of religeous people (I mean that they've all been of the same ilk) when of course there is huge range and diversity!
Not meaning to be presumptuous but I'm basing that on things you've said
You describe religiosity in a very narrow way which leads me to believe that's the exposure you've had, when of course religeous people aren't really like that because people aren't really like that and there is massive breadth
Makes me sad when people talk as if Trump or Westborough Baptist Church etc are representative of Christianity. Or just like religeous people are always sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist, more concerned about reputation then safety -of course I know all that exists -but it makes me sad when those are the only religeous people people have come across or heard of
I would point to the theologian and Lutheran feminist pastor and lgbt ally Nadia Boltz Webber, God is Grey TH-cam channel -a Christian who has been through the deconstruction process but not lost her faith -also a feminist and lgbt ally, Semler (Grace Baldrige) lesbian evangelical Christian who has been through the deconstruction process, the lesbian evangelical theologian Vicky Beeching, Desmond Tutu, even Welby (Welby IS problematic, at the same time he is well educated, intelligent, has depth, and has lost a baby in a car crash and his faith and his wife and children's faith survived several personal tragedies not because they are shallow or unintelligent, uneducated, or didn't think about it and..
The Bible is full of people in pain questioning God, angry with God, not listening to God (Jonah, Job, David, Thomas, Jesus) so if Christians think doubt has no place in faith they haven't read the Bible very closely
I remember walking in the presence of St. Pauls in Rome. All I could think was: This was all built while most of the believers who paid for it wallowed in abject poverty. The Catholic church was built on the foundation that if your give to the church everything that would let you live a decent life and obey your god anointed king you might be free of the suffering we make you endure in this life in the next life (if you are obedient enough). Constantine was the first to realize that god asking for your obedience to the emperor was more powerful than the emperor asking for obedience to himself and we have all been suffering ever since. Just like in everything else, people ruin things that start out good.
Watch it all. Christopher Hithchins is king here. He was great friends with Stephen Fry.
The doctrine of the faith, which Ratzinger was prefect of is the new name for the Inquisition. They changed the name because of the dark shadow that surrounded it for centuaries, but it still exists to this very day.
Gotta love Stephen Fry! One of my true heroes in life! Heidi, since you are a "Formon" like me, you should watch Stephen Fry's very brief video on visiting Temple Square. It'll really make you laugh! I think it's titled something like "Mormon Encounter | Big Think."
Watch the Hitchin segment, please. It will make you angry.
Great commentary. Youre tempted, I know, to go down the rabbit hole of Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens videos.. and that rabbit hole is a very fine thing indeed. Do it!
As a non-fundamentalist Christian and pagan, Stephen Fry will always have a special place in my heart. A national treasure he is 🥰. Thank you for watching his debate. And as many have said, definitely give the full debate a watch. Stephen Fry and Christopher Hitchens were amazing.
I'm fully atheist but I read the Bible and wouldn't want a world without diversity and religions. Important to keep 'feeling the future' and wondering what things we might discover to be true that surprise us.
Stephen Fry is an amazing man - I could listen to him for hours! On the topic of religion, my first girlfriend (and her family) were Seventh Day Adventists (mostly due to her grandmother), their restrictions were ridiculous to me - adults were expected (!) to 'tithe' at least 10% of their income to the church, they had to not work after sunset on Fridays (which required a very understanding employer!), as they went to Church on Saturday (her father was able to do overtime on Sundays though!) - their church has its own food production factories turning out vegetarian sausages, etc! Also, oddly at the time - they were the only (or one of a couple) of white families in their local church!
he's pulling all the punches!...you go Stephen
Stephen Fry is so freakin' Brainy...even if I barely recognize half his references, he makes my brain feel good, like his words are feeding my brain. Plus he's all British and charming and stuff. ;-)
Fry hates Catholics because he is a homosexual Jew. But the entire debate was a setup where the anti Catholics chose who they debated; an unfashionable Conservative convert and a African Bishop. Next time let the Catholics pick their best and brightest.
Fry is dishonest because for example in the debate he attacks St Thomas More, the English martyr, for being narrow minded and authoritarian. And yet the truth is that, for his time, More was very fair and a renowned intellectual who, against the culture of the time, raised his daughter to be one of the most educated people in England. He was a famous author who coined many words such as Utopia, that are common today. And he died for his beliefs. Even Fry's hero Oscar Wilde was fascinated by Catholicism and became one on his deathbed. Can you even imagine a similar debate where the word Catholic is replaced with the word Jew or Jewish
Just hipocrite
The 1st atheist Republic in Portugal probably caused more death than all those years of Salazar dictatorship
Youre one of this he was talking about!
So a Bishop that's African, you automatically know isn't the catholic church's best and brightest? Your argument is simply attacking the sexuality and ethnicity of the the person presenting the argument says alot. Here's the question how could the best and brightest deny undeniable facts that Stephen Fry stated? I don't have to imagine I've seen those debates about the Jewish faith. It just so happens a large portion of the world was colonized by Catholics. The Catholic church had his hand in slave trade, they sided with the Nazis, destroyed and warped cultures all over the world.
I adore the way Stephen Fry constructs sentences. As foolish as it sounds on it's face his deliberate "dumbing down" of the phrase "If he said what he's said to have said", it's such a precise and amusing turn. It makes me smile every time.
Once again love your reactions.
A beautiful part of the extended video. The participants were asked to vote on the question on the way in. 50/50 on the way out 20/80 I would love to see a follow-up, as a devout agnostic that meditates in a Catholic Church. Ongoing Joke with the priest "Found it yet, nah still a no"
Stephen Fry is my philosophical guide in life, I've always 100% agreed with every single stance he's ever taken.
You’d really enjoy watching fry’s short videos on his humanist beliefs. Not necessarily reaction material, but very enlightening.
Thanks for your fantastic reaction. I was brought up as an Irish Catholic, whose younger Brother lives in SLC, married to a lax Mormon - a wonderful person, who doesn’t need a religion to know right from wrong.
React to Tommy Tiernan - Australian priest - very entertaining.
Hitch and Fry were amazing, the whole debate brought me to tears, of joy and laughter.
Also, I love your reaction. It is pretty similar to mine when I was leaving religion--it is such a balancing act. It is super hard to criticize the ideas within religion w/o criticizing the people, b/c there's this weird thing where we tie our idea of personal identity with the ideas we hold. Besides cultural peer pressure (like growing up in Oklahoma), this internalization of ideas is maybe the hardest hurdle to cross.
Martin Luther was big thing in church divide.. you know now, when some were catholics and others were not.. those 'others' others grew up to be not in HRE, not catholics..tbh, pope gave england coolio for like a decade that led to the fall of catholic church, that is still ongoing.
A wellspoken Brittish gentlemen with a heart to speak is a very beautiful thing.
I strongly encourage you to watch the film The Mission. Commercially it really didn't do very well but in my humble opinion it is an epic film and deserves far more recognition than it got. It was nominated for 7 Academy Awards, including best original score, it won 1 Oscar, for cinematography.
I was about 16 when I saw it in about 1988. It has a stellar cast, it is incredibly well filmed, and has an enthralling musical store composed by Ennio Morricone. The subject matter however, is related to Stephen Fry's first point, about history.
It portrays the role of the Jesuits, part of the Roman Catholic Church, and their mission to spread their religion into South America. It also depicts the Spanish slave trade too, and I still remember feeling emotionally drained as the final credits rolled.
History is ALWAYS something you shouild take in and learn, not only in what you believe, It´s VERY important imho.
He is incredibly well spoken