How To: Espresso Shots - When to Start Timing
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2020
- When should you start timing an espresso shot? The "Golden Rule" of espresso says a shot should extract in 20 - 30 seconds. But when should you start the timer? From pump on? At first drip from portafilter spouts? Technically extraction begins when brew water contacts ground coffee. But with differences in pump types, machine design and capabilities like long pre-infusion, flow and pressure profiling starting timing at pump on may give misleading results.
Video:
A Beginner's Guide to Easy Success with Semi-Automatic Espresso Machines: • How To: Beginner's Gui...
Products
Rocket Espresso R58 with Walnut Accents: www.wholelattelove.com/produc...
Gaggia Classic Pro: www.wholelattelove.com/produc...
Acaia Scales: www.wholelattelove.com/collec...
The Jack Leveler: www.wholelattelove.com/collec...
WHOLE LATTE LOVE
Talk to our experts: www.wholelattelove.com/contac...
Whole Latte Love on Social Media
---------------------------------------------------------
► Follow Whole Latte Love on Instagram: / wholelattelove
► Follow Whole Latte Love on Twitter: / wholelattelove
► Like Whole Latte Love on Facebook: / wholelatteloveonline
#wholelattelove #espresso #howto - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Omg, I never understood why all these TH-cam videos did NOT explain when to start timing. Like it’s only common sense to explain to those learning. It was so frustrating. Thank you for your thorough explanation!
Hi TS, You are welcome and thanks for the comment!
Marc
I use a Flair Signature and often use a low pre-infusion, so most of my shots total time when starting at first contact with water are about a 50 seconds to a minute, but not including the preinfusion are usually in the ballpark of 30 seconds. I was always confuses about the timing so this video helps a lot!
I love whole latte love. You helped me take apart my machine, locate the problem, and ultimately rectify the issue. I am beginning to understand the inner workings of an espresso machine just by watching these teachings. Thank you so much!
You are welcome!
That's the most solid explanation on that topic that I've seen! Confirming my thoughts on shot timing, mine were extremely off when timed from 'pump on'. That is no longer a variable :)
Hi Alina, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Great video, I’ve been waiting ages for this method (from first drip) to be a explained. Thanks!
Hi sc74, Thanks for the comment - happy to deliver what you've been waiting for!
Marc
been going crazy and experimenting every possible ways, thanks for this great video! let my mind rest at ease knowing what I have been doing is closer to the video you made!
Hey Triple C, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
I've never watched, or even had a latte before for that matter. Very informative. I would really like to try one.
Thank you so much for this explanation. I had trouble to get a good espresso shot. My shots are now better 17g -> 34g in 27 sec from first drip. I use a Rocket appartamento and a Baratza 270WI with Caffè Sant’Eustachio coffee beans.
Hi Ben, You are welcome - glad you found it helpful and thanks for taking the time to leave a comment! Appartmento and the 270Wi are a nice combo.
Marc
I have to say Marc, I use ratios crossed with timings for my espresso but still love this! I was a firm believer of “from pump on” as a lot of the guys I watched when I first started swore by it. Very interesting, informative and well covered content! Last time, we discussed this on your previous video but I think this is a great entry explanation!
Hi JB, Thanks for the comment! I'll have a video coming soon comparing shots with small grind size changes and weighing input output using Acaia scales with auto timing beginning when scale registers weight - so first drip. I pulled some amazing 1:2 triples for my most recent video on filter baskets and portafilters: th-cam.com/video/yaPgSlJU_PU/w-d-xo.html
Have not finalized content yet, but thinking I may use a few different machines. Like a fast flowing rotary compared to a vibration pump with flow control using extended pre-infusion.
Marc
Whole Latte Love Hi Marc, all sounds very interesting! I wondered if you could give me some advice regarding my next upgrade (now you mention the rotary vs vibration pump). I very rarely drink milky drinks but wondered if it was justifiable to spend the extra money on a linea mini over a ECM Classika II PID. Thinking overall build quality and pump style?
Just watched this video. I have the rancilio Silvia and I'm pleased you mentioned the issue with vibration pumps. Whilst the machine is consistent, the time between pressing the on button and my first drop of coffee is not. 👍
Hey FNB, Thanks for the comment. Yes, a little longer for vibe pumps to come up to full pressure.
Marc
Thanks for the content! I have a Gaggia Classic. I’ve started timing from first drip mainly because even different coffee and grind size can change pump on to first drip time. This video provided good technical info. Thanks again Mark!
Good call
Hi JC P, Thanks for the comment sharing your technique.
Marc
I have been on both sides of the timing. I used to time when the pump came on but now I time on first drip. Going to the latter method changed the game for me.
Hi K, Thanks a whole latte for sharing your experience!
Marc
thanks for this very helpful video. I use a manual espresso machine (ROK). When I watch videos I always appreciate preinfusion and brewtime (from first drop) shared separately. It's easier to recreate this way.
Hi EB, You are welcome - agree 100% with your timing preference!
I always started timing from pump on. Shot times are usually in the 28-33 second range, which corresponds to the 25-30 second rule if you start timing from first drip. Now I am doing both pump on (machine timer) and first drip (lunar scale).
Hi b, Thanks for the comment. With a lunar scale you can have it both ways!
Marc
Good morning Marc. I know you're always pretty quick to respond to any questions I have. I cannot seem to get two ounces out of my coffee within the 25 to 35 seconds time frame. I am using the timer on my pro700., when you say first rap should I be using an external timer and pressing the start button when I first see it hit the cup. Is that what you are talking about and not using the timer on the machine
Great video about a generally misunderstood variable.
IMHO starting time at first drip is more useful when talking to other people. Ultimately, it is important to know time start to finish as well as time from first drip to finish for personal brewing analysis and dialing in shots.
Hi Dan, Thanks for the comment.
Marc
I do agree about pre infusion! Totally right way to do, I struggled with espresso till I stop counting pre infusion into espresso time! I do use When pump engadge or first drip is ok but NO pre infusion time
Agree - thanks for the comment!
Marc
Well this cleared all of the confusion with my Barista Express from the last video... thanks! Watched this and it helped me make the second best cortado I've ever(best being my first). Again thanks Marc
Hey when did u start the timing on BE?
Hi OIF, That's awesome! You are welcome happy to help. Curious what the video helped you to change to make your cortado so much better?
Marc
The video helped me decide to grind a little more course to match the taste profile I liked from these beans. Starting at first drip and stopping the machine before the machine stopped itself dramatically changed the taste prior to mixing with milk. The milk helps tone down some acidity and rounds everything out.
@@gambi321 when the coffee drips. You will hear the pump as a notice to pay attention espresso is about to flow.
This is the answer I seek for a whole year . Thx 😊
Hey K, You are welcome and thank you for taking a moment to leave a comment!
Marc
Great videos and advice. All the information provided is very useful for a frustrated beginner 😁
Hi Sandy, Thanks a whole latte for your comment!
Marc
Thank you sir for your tips. Now I have more confident to make perfect short espresso☕
So nice of you
Thanks for the Vid. Marc do you have any idea what size tamper goes with the gaggia carezza deluxe’s PF ? Trying to get one but don’t know the correct size.
Hi Joel, You are welcome and thanks for the question. The Gaggia Carezza works with a 53mm tamper. Here are a few 53mm: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/tampers?_=pf&pf_t_tamper_diameter=tamp_diameter%3A53mm
Marc
Always wanted to know that. I have a Gaggia Classic, and I always time from the first drip, to 25 secs. It takes 6 seconds from button push, to first drip, so 31 seconds total. Thanks for the confirmation. At least I was doing it right! 👌
Hi 79S, You are welcome! Thank you for the comment.
Marc
Hello i have my gagia 8 years..i add pid with tampeture and prefusion..thanks youtube..for videos how to relase the machine..still make crazy and taste coffee😀😀😉
Thanks Marc, you’re the best
For me it's both. Start the timer from pump on, but note the time at first drop as well. This way, you will catch any anomaly during the pre-infusion stage.
Hi Gary, Thanks for sharing your technique!
Marc
You are literally Phil Dunphe’s twin. Also, thanks for the video.
Hi SC, You are welcome for the video and thanks for your comment!
Marc
Makes total sense. Thanks for the info.
Hi Carp, You are welcome! Thanks for the comment.
Marc
Love the videos! What are your thoughts on Lelit Mara X vs. Profitec Pro 500 PID?
Hi i, Thanks for the comment and question! The exclusive version of the Pro 500 we have at WLL: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-pro-500-pid-espresso-machine-with-flow-control
has a visible PID control which doubles as an automatic shot timer. On the Pro 500 you can control boiler temps degree by degree. On the Mara X there are 3 available temp presets. There's a price difference between the machines. The finishing quality of the Pro 500 is a step above the Mara X. Both machines are capable of making excellent espresso. Hope that helps!
Marc
Great work Mark!
Hi Randy, Thank you for the comment!
Marc
I never thought about the differences in when to start timing in these ways. Very helpful.
Hi Mico, Glad to hear you found the video helpful - Thanks a whole latte for your comment!
Marc
Thanks for all the content. I am new to making my own drinks and wanted to see if you can help clear up a little confusion. Im a little lost when it comes to shot timing, volume, and brew ratio's. Do you recommend pulling a 2oz shot and dialing in the timing based on that and then adjust the brew ratio to taste without changing grind size again or should one start all over and time based on weight for the brew ration I am looking to achieve?
Hi SK, You are welcome for the content and thank you for your comment and questions. In case you missed it here's my most recent video on dialing in which should answer most of your questions: th-cam.com/video/jOY7D02n4Cw/w-d-xo.html Also check this one out if you haven't which has tips for easy espresso success: th-cam.com/video/D6lLYgx1Ow4/w-d-xo.html
If using brew ratios you will need to weigh the ground coffee and then your cup as the espresso is brewing. It's near impossible to determine brew ratio by measuring liquid volume in a cup as crema weighs a lot less than full liquid espresso and you get differing amounts of crema depending on the coffee. For example I was doing some triple shots a couple of weeks ago using a 21g dose and looking to extract until 42g (by weight) in cup for a 1:2 ratio. In those shots from a very fresh coffee the espresso plus crema filled the shot pitcher to nearly 70ml. If that were water the weight would have been 70g.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hey Mark! Just curious where I can get one of those graduated glasses with spout as seen in the start of this video? Thanks for all your content. Its very much appreciated :)
Hi CR, You are welcome for the videos and thanks for your comment! You can get the shot pitchers here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/lf-spare-parts-3-spout-2-oz-shot-glass
Marc
Timing is essential for me. I am kind of lazy, but enjoy adding to my technique and knowledge, in that I love my espresso and my wife particularly enjoys my lattes. I use a MACAP M7D conical burr grinder that delivers approximately 20 grams in around 3 seconds, depending upon the beans that I am using. I use an older, La Marzocco, GS3 with the pre-infusion feature and a double shot in a bottomless holder. I also prefer to use a distribution tool to level the grinds, prior to tamping with a flat tamper, using approximately 30# pressure. I have found that since using the distribution tool, tamping pressure is not as critical. Once set up, I begin the pre-infusion by moving the lever over to non-motorized pressure, at approximately 3 bars. I begin my timer as soon as I move the lever to its first position. I try for approximately 9 seconds for the espresso to begin dripping and then move the lever to the full extraction position and hopefully finish my pull in approximately 24 - 26 seconds, total. This seems to yield a flavor that I prefer. I will vary the pull according to the kind of bean and roast I use, which is another discussion, but generally, the lighter the roast, the longer the pull. My lightest roast can take as long as 28 seconds for the flavor that I prefer. Thank you for your video presentations. They are always interesting, informative and seem to add more to my personal journey in pursuit of espresso excellence.
Hi William, Thanks for sharing the details of your technique. I love to hear what others are doing! Timing is just the beginning with many other variables to consider like roast level, bean type/origin and age from roast date. I do find in general lighter roasts which are denser can benefit from longer total extraction times. Especially very fresh from roast single origins. With those, A long low flow/pressure at the start allows the coffee to off gas CO2 still locked up in the bean reducing typical brightness/acidity and allow brew water to penetrate and extract the sweet flavors.
Marc
Thanks Marc. Makes perfect sense.
Hey Simon, You are welcome and thanks for the comment!
Marc
Nice vid. As you say from pump on can vary so much. I have an ECM Mechanika Slim and from pump on to first drip is about 8s or so. I notice that the first few secs the pressure hangs at 5 or 6 then when I see gauge go to 9 I know first drip follows in a second or two.
Hi TJ, Thanks for the comment! That's why I go from first drip. Big variance in flow/pressure build depending on machine and pump type. Then throw in variables like pre-infusion and flow control. Also timing is basic. I've had plenty of great shots outside the 20-30 second range.
Marc
sir, how many times you take for make double shoot and single shoot?
hey Marc,
I own a Vivi Izzo PID, what's your opinion on timing with this machine? when pump starts and shoot for 30-25, or at first drop?
Hi Ray, You could go either way. Personally, when I time shots I always start at first drip. Keep in mind timing is the most basic method for appraising an extraction and is only relative to your variables. If keeping things basic, I'd shoot for shorter time if using first drip and longer if using pump on.
Marc
I’ve been using a 20 sec minimum and have been adjusting from a 15 g puck in an 18g filter to optimizing with 18g in a 21g filter. Using an inexpensive leveler and minimal tamp after I shut down extraction when the flow begins to dance . Initial flow develops into a laminar flow at 1-2 sec and begins dancing at 23 sec typically using Lavazza Super Crema in my Pasquini Livia 90. The visual observation of flow seems to be more consistent than exact time as it seems to adjust for humidity and freshness and type of grind.
Hi Chase, Thanks for sharing the detail of your extractions. I agree visual cues and of coarse flavor are more important than timing.
Marc
Great explanation Marc! I purchased the Gaggia Pro and your delicious Orphea blend. I'm curious why you recommend a 17g dose vs. the standard 18g with the Orphea?
Hi MrS, Thanks for the comment and question. No reason you cannot use 18g. I go with 17g in many videos as that's the capacity of stock double shot baskets shipping with many machines. If not using a scale it's about what you'll get if you slightly overfill a stock double basket and level off without compressing the coffee. So just a way to make it easier for those not using a scale. You should be able to fit 18g of Orphea in the Classic's basket. Just keep an eye on the surface of you coffee puck after an extraction. If you see an impression of the shower screen on the puck surface you're using too much coffee. Happy to hear you are enjoying the Orphea - it's a coffee which gets a whole latte love!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage THIS! I was averaging about 18-18.5g of grounds in my basket and kept wondering why my espresso was off. Now I am weighing and leveling regularly. ☕
It is great way to start. Honestly the more different beans you try. I have found it's all about the machine and the bean. Different beans like different times. I personally quit timing I have a bean I love. I have a breville barista Express. I go by grind size, and pressure. I find out what size the bean likes to be at and pressure it likes to be at. Every bean is different right. So find out what the bean your using likes to be at size wise and pressure wise. And even how many grams in your basket it likes for the... and you said it right at the end there, best flavor. It's all about flavor.
Hi E, Thanks for the comment sharing your experience! And yes, it's all about the flavor.
Marc
I originally timed from the second I started my shot, but after a couple months with my Elba 3 I started to notice something interesting, and I completely changed my method. I found that turning the lever to the point just before the pump is activated released a slight bit of water and steam as a result of the boiler pressure. This essentially simulates a preinfusion, and I find it drastically increases the quality of my extractions. The amount of time I do this for though is no exact science and is more of an estimate. Therefore, it became a necessity to start timing from first drip and I've never looked back!
Hi Zane, Thanks for sharing the details of your experience! Yes, you can get a pre-wetting/subtle pre-infusion of the coffee by raising E61 group lever to position just before pump on. The pre-wetting will swell the coffee and may help to prevent channeling. Subtle pre-infusion can help with things like allowing very freshly roasted coffee to off gas prior to application of higher brewing pressures which can help control brightness.
Marc
This actually makes allot of sense
Mark, I have a 2019 Gaggia Classic Pro I purchased from Whole Latte Love. With the stock 14 bars of pressure, does this effect when I should start timing? I hear a lot of rumblings online about moding the machine's OPV to drop to 9/10 bars of pressure. Thoughts on this?
Wait, from factory it produces 14bars of pressure ??
Did you measure this ?
@@pablo-zn1mg No need. This is the standard out of the box. I've heard so the machine can deal with pods.
@@pablo-zn1mg Most of the so called 'home espresso machine' are set up at higher bars, I don't know why, but one thing I realize when we brew 1:3 ratio of espresso, It became achievable to hit that 25-30 seconds time.
If it tasted good, keep it that way. Simple as that.
Hi Marc! I'm new into coffee making...i have bought a Gaggia Classic and baratza sette 270wi...i dialed in a 2oz shot in 20-30sec but im not getting the shot always out in that time range...could it be the tamper... it's 58mil steel one...not the Gaggia Classic gets you...thank you for your videos and sorry for my poor english...
Hi PM! I doubt it's the tamper. You can expect some variability in timing from shot to shot. It usually comes down to technique and/or lack of consistency with variables like coffee dose weight or quality of tamp. I'll mention distribution of grinds in the filter basket but using a the Sette 270 Wi that should be excellent without user intervention. Hope that helps!
Marc
I agree with you Marc! Too many variable factors to tell everyone to start at the gate or to start at first drip. Totally depends upon machine and type of coffee etc. I have your Expobar Office Lever and no way can I start shot time at the time I pull the lever. I prob should keep track of the time for when I pull the lever to when it starts to drip (pre-infusion) just to keep my machine accountable but never could I start shot time before it drips. Different machine, prob a different story.
Hi Star, Thanks for the comment! And in your Expobar you have the extra pre-infusion chamber behind the shower screen which adds a bit to time to first drip. Always liked the custom E61s on Expobar machines for their more gentle build of flow/pressure at the start. Great example of how every machine is a little different.
Marc
Hi Mark.. great video. I bought a synchronika with flow control from you guys about three months ago. Love the machine. Could you make some more videos on flow control... specifically giving us a few different techniques baristas use and explaining what each technique does for flavor and taste. I see in this video you initially went to 2 bars of pressure, then played with it until finally going up to full pressure and then bringing back down to 2 for a total brew time of about 50 seconds. Would love a video if you just went over the different techniques. Thanks!
Hi nn, Thanks for the comment and your patronage. Happy to hear you are loving your Synchronika with FC. In case you missed them here are a couple of videos on flow control. I plan on doing more in the future.
Intro to Flow Control and How to Calibrate: th-cam.com/video/P1Vz7aa_KtI/w-d-xo.html
Live Demo - Flow Control What it is and How to Use: th-cam.com/video/Djx2C8yXYb4/w-d-xo.html
Some general tips:
1. Very fresh from roast coffee use a low flow at start then bring up to medium flow and reduce flow at end. So a bell curve in flow rate
2. Older potentially stale coffee use a high flow rate at start then taper midway through to low flow. This avoids over-extraction of stale components
3. Try coffee shots. Grind coarser like a typical drip/filter grind and use a constant low flow to produce a standard size cup of coffee in the 60 second range.
4. Simulate other machine extractions. Slayer: Extra long low flow/pressure at start then up to full flow to finish. Manual lever: Extra low flow at start for a few seconds then quickly to full flow, when full pressure reached on E61 gauge begin to gently taper off flow to zero until shot complete
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi marc! I absolutely love all of your informational videos.
Now I don't have the highest top of the line espresso machine don't get me wrong but boy do I love me a great espresso.
I recently purchased myself a Breville Barista Express machine and I've taken it to the level that I do weigh my grams in, and out, using fresh bean and a tamper/distributor such as yours to eliminate as much user error as possible, and to keep everything as consistent as possible.
I'm using a medium roast fresh bean but cant for the love of me pull a drinkable shot that doesn't end up tasting bitter/burnt!
Right now I'm playing with 17g in 34g out with 20 second brew time at first drip but I don't know what variables I should be switching and working with.
I"m using a 54mm single wall filter baskets ment for a double pull.
With this comment I'm just looking for some direction perhaps , i've seen all your videos but perhaps I'm jumping too far ahead of myself.
Thanks!
-Andrew
What is your brew temperature? Have you measured to see if it is around 195 in the group or about 185 when it hits the cup?
So how do I know when to to start the timer with my Breville Barista Express and Breville Oracle? The oracle has an automatic timer that starts immediately should I go by that? Or just focus on dose and yield so long as it takes about 20-30 seconds for a double shot?
Hi Tyler, Thanks for the question. Timing is the most basic way to appraise a shot. IMO it's valid for dialing in a grind size. After that def focus on dose, yield and most importantly flavor!
Marc
Hello, I am using to ROK espresso press, I am looking for an affordable espresso machine any suggestions? Also, what grinder do you use and any recommendations?
Hi ice, Best value in true machine is the Gaggia Classic Evo Pro. It uses commercial size components like 58mm portafilter, heavy brass group head, a real boiler and is made in Italy. Cheaper appliances have poor thermal stability, thermoblock water heating and smaller pressurized filter baskets: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/gaggia-classic-pro-colors
The Eureka Mignon Facile grinder pairs well with the Gaggia Classic. It's a machine grade 50mm flat burr on demand grinder: www.wholelattelove.com/products/eureka-mignon-facile-espresso-grinder
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hello Marc. Since you mentioned a very important thing about the vibration pump, I'd like to tell you about an experiment I had with a Rocket Apartmento for a year and a half along with Baratza 270. I was doing really good shots with a Natural Colombian light-medium roast coffee then I got an upgrade to an R58 and when I got the calibration of the grinding right I was surprised with very watery espresso and channeling in the espresso buck which is a thing that often doesn't happen with the vibration pump in Apartmento. Do you think it's because vibration pump builds up slowly? And that slow building up is causing better results than an immediate 9 bar pressure of a rotary pump! I'm starting to kinda regret moving to a rotary pump which I think is requiring a grinder that is far more better than Sette 270.
Hi Mujahid, Thanks for sharing your experience. There's a possibility that the quicker pressure/flow build of a rotary pumpmay be causing you some troubles compared to the vibration pump. It may have more to do with the flow than the pressure. While both types reach the same brew pressure when properly setup rotary pumps flow at ~11g/s while vibs flow at ~8g/s. Now, all that said I've done many hundreds of of shots on rotary pump machines with grinds from Sette 270/270Wi and have not had that issue. The quicker pressure/flow build may reveal more issues with tamping and leveling.
Marc
I have BZ10 and I start timing from 1st drop. Not sure yet to whether i use measuring cup to find espresso volume in ml or to use scale to find in grams! For 1:2 ratio any thoughts? Many thanks
Hi f, Thanks for the comment and question. Well, scale is far more accurate if doing brew ratios. Problem with measuring ml volume in cup is crema. I've done 1:2 shots using 18g coffee dose (so extraction weight is 36g) including crema in cup ml volume at that weight is often 60ml. Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Mark. Love your videos and website. I'm having a problem with channeling. I'm using a La Pavoni with a bottomless portafilter and Eureka Specialita grinder. I'm consistently getting channeling with spirting. Makes a huge mess. I think I've got the grind dialed in, I'm using a leveler and sometimes I also tamp. Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong?
Hi Dario, Thanks for the comment and question. FYI, my bottomless shots get the spurts now and then. I wouldn't worry too much about misty spurts. They can happen from a partially blocked hole in the filter basket. If on the other hand you have major spurts and/or areas of your filter basket that are blank spots with no extraction that indicates issues in distribution of the grind and/or tamping. Is your grind clumpy at all? If so you might try mixing/shaking the grind to get rid of clumps prior to leveling and tamping. Acaia makes a nice dosing cup designed to fit perfectly over a 58mm filter basket. So you can grind into the filter basket, dump into cup, shake and re-dose the filter basket: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-small-portafilter-dosing-cup
Marc
Whole Latte Love. Thanks. The one challenge I have is the Pavoni uses a 51mm basket and options are limited.
Excellent video. May I know what you consider as standard time for pre infusion?. What's effect of long pre infusion time ( say 30 seconds) on quality of espresso?.
Hi sw, Thank you for the comment and question. There are no standard times for pre-infusion. In some cases pre-wetting/pre-infsuion is used to swell the coffee briefly prior to application of full brewing pressure. The swelling is thought to reduce the likelihood of brew water channeling through the coffee. Another common use of pre-infusion is to allow CO2 to off-gas in coffee which is very fresh from roast. This can help control acidity/brightness in very fresh coffees. Not sure what affect a 30 second pre-infusion would have - seems rather excessive. Would depend on coffee I guess? Give it a try.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you for detailed response. I will experiment with pre infusion.
Sorry I'm going to seem like a bit of a dunce with this question. Is the 20 - 30 second rule for single shots or double shots?
Hello, great content. What is the time difference between 9 bar machines and a 15 or 19 bar machine? Thanks.
Hi JM, Thanks for the comment and question. Most all machines will pull at 9 bar assuming your grind is dialed in. I think for the most part 15 bar ratings on some products are just marketing to the more is better consumer mind.
Marc
Great video Marc, as always! Your channel is probably the best on the subject on TH-cam, please keep it up! Quick question, I've got a Rocket Mozzafiato machine, do you know where to source those gorgeous wooden accent knobs and handles? mine is stock black.
Hi Ali, Thanks a whole latte for your kind comment! We hope to have wood accessory upgrade kits for the machine in the future. Currently they are in short supply due to high demand and pandemic related production slow downs.
Marc
Hey man, quick question:
Using a dedica 685 with pressurized basket. With 14g of coffee and a programmed 32g of liquid in the cup, the flow takes only 16 seconds With a preinfusion of about 6 seconds. I just cannot get it to slow down - it's the same "speed" regardless of grindsize. I used very coarse supermarket coffee, coffee shop coffee ground as fine as my bad quality grinder gets and specialty coffee from a dedicated shop that ground the coffee to the finest setting of their commercial machine (which they told me would be too fine for basically any setup - it's actually almost a dust like powder). From my (apperantly useless) understanding, flow rate should be determined by grindsize, which doesn't seem to work for me. Do you maybe have an idea what could be going wrong?
Hi p, Thanks for the question. When using a pressurized basket it is the basket controlling the flow rate with the grind size not making much of a difference. To get grind size in the mix you will need to use a standard non-pressurized filter basket. Although your machine is designed to work with a pressurized basket I do believe there are aftermarket non-pressurized baskets available - but I have not personally used those so don't know how well they work on the machine. If you should get one know that grind size is critical. Very small changes in grind size have a big impact on timing so it's near impossible to have someone else grind your coffee and have it work well on your machine.
Marc
hi there,
i am using LaCIMBALI M27 , does it support the pre fusion ? or shall we start the timing when the water hits the bucket
Hi ra, Thanks for the question. I have not used that particular machine so not 100% certain if it does pre-infusion. Keep in mind timing is very basic. Once in the ballpark with 20-30 second extraction let flavor be your guide. Do that and it doesn't matter when you start timing as you'll just use timing as reference to compare extractions on your particular machine.
Marc
Mark. My machine is rocket Appartamento, I start timing when I rise up the lever I use 18 g I get 36 m In about 29 to 32 seconds but still the coffee taste watery . Do you suggest changing the grind size? Or it’s because my machine is hx
Heat exchanger ^
Hi, I'm using a bean to cup Delonghi Magnifica ESAM 4200 machine and wanted to ask about grind settings.
I can't seem to get the consistency of coffee stream flowing fast enough for coffee grinds at anything less than 3.5 (I have a scale of 1-14 clicks with FINEST=1 and COURSE=7).
I try to keep the coffee super fresh where possible. Water temperature at the hottest possible on the machine. I keep the shots to expresso size and always aim to pull double shots when timing the 20-35s shot.
My problem is that the shots just take too long at 3.5 or less and sometimes just a few drops (or none at all). I appear to get a stream at mid point of 4.
Could it just be the quality of bean I'm using as I'm not really able to pull anything at grind level 1(finest)?
I want those super crema textured espresso shots :)
Thanks
Hi g, While timing is a basic way to dial-in grind size on semi-automatic machines it does not apply in a meaningful way to automatic bean to cup machines. If getting very slow drip I would increase the grind size. Unless you are doing 2 grind cycles you can't make a double on most super-automatics as coffee dose is too low - probably ~12g max in the Delonghi. In general very fresh from roast coffee uses a slightly larger grind size. As the coffee ages a finer grind usually produces better results. If looking for crema rich shots try Italian style bean blends which contain some Robusta in the blend. These coffees do not rely on freshness like lighter roasted, single origin 100% Arabica coffees. Stored in original packaging they do well for months. A couple of known crema producers with excellent reviews in this class are Lavaza Super Crema: www.wholelattelove.com/products/lavazza-super-crema-whole-bean-espresso-coffee
and Mormas Orphea: www.wholelattelove.com/products/maromas-orphea-whole-bean-espresso
Hope that helps!
Marc
How about starting from when the pressure is upto 9 bar? My ECM classika automatically starts the timer from pump on but it can be 6-8 seconds before the pressure guage starts to shoot upto pressure.
Hi RM, Makes perfect sense to me. Timing is the most basic measure of espresso. Really only useful for your particular gear. Next step: Brew Ratios!
Marc
Hi. How can I know what grind size to use so that my espresso is extracted in the optimal time? 20-30s
Hi cl, Thanks for the question. You will need to dial in your grind size to fit your extraction variables. Fairly simple, just adjust your grind size to hit the optimal timing while keeping all other variables consistent. Here's a video shwoing the process: th-cam.com/video/jOY7D02n4Cw/w-d-xo.html
Marc
I'm trying to figure the amount poured in an espresso with my new Profitec 500 as it has a lever that just stays on where my last machine was off when it thought it should be off. I't is puzzling me no end. No coffee I have is exactly the same as the last. Help!
Hi Stuart, Sounds like your last machine was an electronic dosing model. Those are usually programmable and use timing to turn the pump off. Some higher end machines of have a flow meter and turn off the pump after a programmed amount of water is dispensed. In machines using timing so long as other variables like grind size, coffee dose weight, etc stay the same you will get about the same volume of espresso in your cup. Personally, I prefer manual machines like the Pro 500 where I determine when to stop the extraction. Measuring your extraction by volume or weight will let you know when to lower the lever and stop the extraction.
When would you start timing with a La Marzocco Linea Micra?
Hey jp, I'm an advocate for 1st drip because it takes variables like pump type out of the equation. Bottom line is it doesn't really matter. Timing is a very basic way to appraise an extraction and only relative to your equipment.
Thanks for your reply
Always welcome
Hi Mark, on a r58 2022 model - at 1st drip how many seconds would be a good extraction be if I were doing 20g of coffee beans? By the way I love your content and I have learned so much watching your videos.
Hi Jason, Thanks for the kind comment and question. Good timing from 1st drip is in the 20-30 second range. Basic timing is the same regardless of coffee dose used.
Marc
Sir i want one video for la marzocco program how i clabrat espresso
Hi LBCtv, Thanks for the request!
Couldn't agree more. My Lelit PLUST PID needs ~8 sec for the first drip no matter what.
Hi TJ, Thanks for the comment. ~8 is fairly typical for 1st drip on that type of mach9ine.
Marc
I've been experimenting with timing but I usually get distracted by the spurting hot coffee all over my phone and espresso set-up through my bottomless portafilter and lose my place 😅😅😅
Hey a, Work on that grind quality and distribution!
Youre channeling
Hi from Sydney AU, Marc. Love your videos. They're the BEST! I am a newbie to the world of espresso. However I hav always loved and appreciated coffee. I am learning a lot by watching your channel. Thank you. I was initially after the Gaggia Classic Pro, however they are sold out in Australia, at present. There's a wait. So instead, I have just purchased the Breville Dual Boiler BES920. I then purchased the Breville Grinder Pro. They have $1000 off RRP for Machine & $100 off grinder here at present, so no brainer. Very good deal.
I am having trouble dialling in. (Taste) I am doing 18g in getting 40g out. Output seems fine, however coffee is bitter. You do not seem to go by weight so much..... If i was producing say 50-60 mil, from 18g in, would this be OK? And do you include the crema in that measurement? Any other tip to rectify the bitterness? I am using medium - dark roast beans. I need to watch more videos, I know and will do so... Thanks for your encouragement. Love your work and all the best over there! cheers, Mark
Hi Mark, Thanks for the kind comments. Love Sydney so much we named our youngest daughter born in 2000 after the Olympics there! Anyway... Nice deal on your equipment! My guess is your bitter flavor has to do with the coffee used unless your 1:2 ratio is taking a very long time like 35+ seconds. If not the coffee, bitterness is generally an indication of over-extraction. If timing is long you might try a slightly coarser grind. In my introductory videos I do focus on timing for dialing in purposes. But I use weight all the time after initial dial in. Weight is far more reliable for brew ratio than measuring liquid volume. In crema rich extractions like those of Italian style bean blends it's not unusual to get near 70ml liquid volume including crema from an 18g dose extracted to ~1:2 ratio. Tips: increase grind size a bit, Brew temp... for medium-dark roast I'd start at about 92C/198F. General advice on brew temps hotter for lighter roast cooler for dark.
Marc
I just ordered Bezerra by 13 from you guys! Can wait to play with it.Oh and of course I've got question. Do I have to tweek the grinder ,extraction time and temperature every time I'm changing grains?
Hey Chef, thanks for your patronage! You will likely need to make minor adjustments to grind size, dial in, when changing beans. Basic extraction timing is 20-30 seconds from first drip regardless of single or double shot. Temp is 200F for medium roast a couple of degrees cooler for dark roast and a couple hotter for light. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks a lot really appreciate it ,just realized I will also need tamper and few other accessories with it,so I'm heading back yo the store!
Cheers
Hi, Marc. My question is not about the topic of this video, but I hope you could help me: between ECM and Bezzera, which brand produces more reliable machines overall? Before I choose a specific model, I tend to first make a choice on a brand, and the most important selling point for me is reliability and build quality. Thanks a lot.
Hi LK, I've been to both the ECM/Profitec and Bezzera manufacturing facilities in Italy - I'll link to videos from my visits to each below. In those you'll hear from the company owners and get a look at their facilities. My quick takes... Both companies make excellent machines. Some of the higher-end Bezzara machines tend to be a little more complicated internally. So may have more potential points of failure. For their mid-range machines that is not the case. At that level I'd pay more attention to desirable features when comparing among manufacturers. Bezzera makes more of their own components in house than just about any other manufacturer. And they've been doing that for a very long time! ECM/Profitec makes incredibly reliable machines throughout their product range. As you'll hear in the video from the factory they come from a background of servicing machines so relaibilty and ease of service is important to them. I've seen firsthand their continuing effort to use the best possible components and tweak designs over time to create more robust products. One small example is the mushroom valves in their E61 groups. While some manufacturers use chrome plated or ceramic mushroom valves they use stainless steel. Another example are the steam and hot water valves used on many of the higher level machines. They are spring loaded for ease of use and low wear. ECM/Profitec tends to use K.I.S.S. design so you'll find fewer solenoid valves in their machines and logical internals.
Video from Bezzera: th-cam.com/video/KY14ND7_Exs/w-d-xo.html
Video from ECM/Profitec: th-cam.com/video/K0RI5rdz4Ww/w-d-xo.html
Hope that helps!
Marc
Mostly i use with my beans is the 25 sec range at 9 bar pressure when time was starter when u turned the switch
Awesome my good ole expobar!
Hi Rich, Gotta love the old Expobar machines. Excellent value in their day!
Marc
Hi Mark, I have new rocket giotto r and some time when I'm extracting espresso there is a whistling sound for 1 or 2 seconds, is it normal? The machine still new one week only
Hi FK, Sounds like you have a very happy machine? Sorry, couldn't help that. Hmmm, whistling... I wouldn't say that's normal and hard to say what's going on without being in front of the machine. Where does the sound come from? Sometimes internal components shift in shipping causing odd sounds. Try and isolate where the noise is coming from. Does holding your hand on a panel anywhere reduce the sound?
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thank you Mark so much, latest 4 shots wasn't sound, I realized that while extraction; the pressure rise to 10, but when guage read b/w 8-9 no whistling happened, anyway I am still understanding the machine maybe I am right or wrong, coming days I will know more.
Great video! Hi Marc, how do you pull a “Single Shot” Espresso to have a 1oz or appx. 30ml Espresso within 20-30 Seconds? I’m a bit confused
Hey Nico, Thanks for the comment on video and question. Single shots should have about the same timing as a double. Definitely want to use a single shot basket. They have far fewer holes in the bottom than a double basket so you get the same brew water contact time with the ground coffee at a reduced flow rate. Depending on the baskets used you may need to adjust grind size when going from double to single baskets to get the same extraction timing. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you so much Marc! Will definitely try that. 😊
I’m using 18g beans but getting anywhere from 45-48g liquid out. Any recommendations?
Hi ks, If that's a weighed 45-48g then you're really close to a 1:2 ratio. Grind a hair finer to slow it down or cut shot sooner to end at 36g. Hope that helps!
Marc
I have Breville Infuser. When do you recommend starting timing on that? If I have it dialed in at 25 seconds for the 60 gram double shot factory setting, and want to go to a 1 to 2.5 brew ratio of 40 grams, do I need to adjust the grind, as it will take less time? (With the coffee I'm using 16 grams fills the portafilter to the top).
Hi M, First let me just confirm you are weighing your shots and not getting your brew ratio based on in cup volume - milliliters. Honestly I would not worry too much about timing if using brew ratios. You do want it to be reasonable but if using brew ratios your are a bit beyond timing shots. I'd pull to the ratio you like and then taste. If bitter/over-extracted grind a little coarser. If sour/under-extracted grind a little finer. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Another question... I have a Eureka Mignon and it clumps quite a bit. If I grind directly into the basket, can this cause channelling, and can channelling radically effect the time? I thought that tamping would break up the clumps and fill the voids, but now I'm not sure. This morning I pulled two different times on the same grinder setting. Once I ground into the basket as normal and it was way too fast, 16 seconds, the other I was careful to break up the clumps and it was super slow, 45 seconds. Both times I used the factory 2 shot setting.
As an owner of a manual lever machine, I wonder how time my shot at all, since I have to do multiple full or sub-/halfpumps, where no water is pressed through the coffeegrind.
Hi K, Perfect example of why 1st drip is a good point of reference.
Marc
How long would I aim for if using flow control and trying to extract 36 grams (from first drip)?
Hi AT, Thanks for the question. Answer depends on what type of profile you are running and it's not a cut and dry time. If it's something using a very long low flow to start for a fresh from roast coffee to reduce brightness you may not have 1st drip until 10 - 15+ seconds from pump on. It would not be unreasonable and in most cases desirable for the shot to go at least 20 more seconds from 1st drip. But so long as it's not gushing out in
Thank you for the tips! Ive been using this method to have a more consistent result. Previously Ive been using my brother’s Rocket Appartamento and been getting consistent great results when timing from first drip. I currently just got a Gaggia Classic Pro (a few days ago) which i timed from first drip to get a more consistent shot. I am currently experimenting on pre infusing prior to immediately brewing. And I believe the timing from first drip will help to get consistent results and adjust accordingly until obtaining your desired espresso taste.
Hi Yamin, Thanks for sharing! Timing is a great place to start but yes, let taste be your guide after that!
Marc
Should fully automatic machines be the same? My cardona prestige go for about 10-15sec
Hi Scott, Thanks for the question. No, shot timing does not apply to super-automatic machines like it does on semi-automatics. The design of the brew unit's brewing chamber is very different in size as compared to a standard portafilter/filter basket setup. The result is a faster extraction.
Marc
Good video, I've been troubled by my E61 HX with rotary pump being a bit "quicker" than the roaster recommends for extracting their espresso blend. Dialing finer produced worse results, the best flavour seems to be the quicker, coarser grind. I'm tempted to installed ECM E61 Flow Control Device, assuming it fits generic E61 heads. The one you demo in the video looks similar?
Hi George, The flow control device works in every E61 group we've tested regardless of machine manufacturer.
Marc
Hi Marc - another great, informative video as usual :) - just some comments.....some of the modern machines now have an extraction timer built in to the front display. I have the ECM Synchronika which has this feature (as you know) and the timer begins as soon as the pump handle is pushed up. I have always been told that once the extraction begins ie, the pump has been activated, you should see the first drips of coffee hit the cup / glass in the 6-10 sec range.....this has always been the initial indicator of whether or not you are on target for an ideal extraction time? I suppose it depends alot on the coffee bean itself and how you like your coffee, but I have working to 18 grms in, 36-38 grms out in 27-29 secs with my machine recently and the results have been ideal for my tastes. Keep up the great work!!
Hi stephen, Thanks for the kind comment and additional detail. Initial drip timing can be helpful in the sense that if you are using standard flow rates (~11g/s on rotary pump machines) and you are getting drips really fast at like 2 seconds or really slow at like 15 it's fairly obvious the grind is not right. Have to be careful as depending on machine and pump type first drip may come later. Vibration pump machines flow at ~8g/s and come up to pressure more slowly so everything else being equal first drip will take longer but that doesn't mean something is off.
Happy to hear your results are ideal! Much depends on the machine, personal taste and the coffee used. My guess is you're like me and tend toward a finer grind.
Yes many more machines now have automatic shot timer. They've been standard on most ECM and Profitec PID machines for awhile. Rocket Espresso finally jumped on that train with their Cronometro models. I know Andrew Meo of Rocket very well. He's chiefly responsible for the look of their machines and always resisted having digital displays on the face of his machines.
Marc
Hi Stephen My honest and sincere apologies for invading your privacy abruptly. I was going through a comment when I came across your comment I was fascinated and became interested in knowing you, I'll be so glad if you send me a mess. I hope there are no problems to be part of your friend list ❤but If you find this message embarrassing please pardon my manners.❤☘️🌺🙏
I have a Breville dual boiler. The timer starts from pump on. It takes about 8-10 sec for first drip. I was timing from pump on. So 18 in 36 out, in about 27 seconds. But that means about 17 seconds of "real" extraction time. Does that mean I should hit for 35-40 seconds from pump on? I pulled some great shots from pump on 27 sec but actually I was under extracting? I do had problems with consistency...
Hi dn, Thanks for the question. You could be fine at 27 sec from pump on. Much depends on the coffee and taste. Timing is relative to your variables. You could try grinding a bit finer and extending extraction time. Then taste and decide what you prefer for flavor.
Marc
My Machine is the Expobar had it for about 3 years now I put in around 14,5 to 15 grams then try for about 26 seconds with pre infusion and measure the first drip out of the portafilter and using scales aiming for 60g and ad steamed milk about 1/2 cup worth . I do like a strong taste with steamed milk on top .
Generally I look for good crema that,s the key for me but the amount of crema that can change depending of the grade of coffee and how old it is and look for 9 bar on the meter which depends on grind size and tamping .
Hi Iom, Thanks for sharing your preferences.
Marc
Hey Marc, i have a gaggia classic pro and ive added a pid and modded the pressure to 9bars.. i brew at 90.5celsius, and i am doing the 1:1 ratio with 18gr of coffee.. could you tell me, how many seconds should it take for me to brew if i start the timer from 1) pump on 2) 1st drip..
Hi Michael, You are ambitious with the PID mod! When dialing in grind on the Classic Pro I'd shoot for 25-30 seconds from pump on and 20-30 seconds from first drip. That timing is the same regardless of dose weight. At 1:1 are you doing ristretto? Also, 90.5C is a relatively low brew temp (=195F) unless doing a very dark roast coffee. Keep in mind that timing shots is the most basic method of appraising a shot. Once you've got the time down, move on to using flavor to adjust your grind. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc, i will try out your suggestion tomorrow! Ive been trying out various temperatures and timings, and it seems like no matter what I do I keep ending up at bitter.. Ive tried 1:1, 1:2.. below 20sec, 20-30sec, more than 30sec.. 90.5-93c.. the one thing i never realized was when to start the timer, cause ive always started timing on pump start.. so im gonna try doing the timer based on ur suggestion and see where i land on..
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc, the problem with timing from first drip is that, the time from pump on to first drip varies quite a bit with the gc pro.. grind size is constant, but somehow it could take 3-10sec from pump on to first drip and then another 25-30sec to end.. totaling 28-40sec.. my shots are still quite bitter..
I bought a gaggia classic pro evo and had consistently bad results.
I recently bought a lucca M58. I added flow control but have been leaving it open for now. ( I like the idea of future nerding)
I watched your video the other day, saying to start timing as soon as you turn the pump on and shoot for 25 seconds. This has led me to a fairly corse grind. There have been few times where my esspresso wasn't absolutely trash.
I feel like my puck prep is on point and everything looks as it should coming out every time, but taste is way off.
So if i start timing from first drip ...that adds about 7 seconds to the scenario.
So, from first drip, I want to shoot for 25 seconds from pump on?
Also I notice the guage reads 8.5 bar while extracting but if i put the black flashing cup in the portafilter it reads 9.5 bar.
Should I adjust that?
Thanks for the videos
Hey xx,
You're welcome for the videos and thanks for the comment and question!
It's up to you when you start timing and keep in mind timing is the most basic way of appraising an extraction. If you go from pump on shoot for the higher end of the 20-30 second range. If using first drip the lower end. But, do use taste as determining factor! In general, if coffee is bitter coarsen the grind a bit to speed up the extraction. If sour adjust grind finer to slow down the extraction.
You pressure sounds great and it's totally normal for pressure to read higher with the backflush disc in which is static pressure. People get really wrapped up in the 9 bar dogma but no need to split hairs over 0.5 bar. Due to the location of brew system pressure measurement within a machine the reading on that gauge does not perfectly reflect the pressure in the portafilter during an extraction.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks Mark. I appreciate the response. I'll keep tinkering.
Tom.
Hey Marc/people reading this, so i've got the Rocket Appartamento and a Gaggia mdf grinder. I've been trying to figure out what's wrong for a few hours now and can't seem to find the issue. My machine's extraction time is around 15 seconds when I grind my coffee with the Gaggia mdf on it's finest grind setting (1). When i put it on the average 5 - 7 its a crazy 5 seconds. My coffee ratio and tamping is fine. Have you got any tips on what's going on and how to fix it?
Hi T, Thanks for the question. It may be time to recalibrate and/or clean your MDF. It thought I had a video how to on that but I can't find at the moment - sorry. Our Tech Support folks should be able to walk you through it by phone. Give them a call at 585-924-7170 for assistance.
Marc
Whole Latte Love Thanks a lot Marc! Cleaned it out and it made it a lot better! 😄
What about timing on super automatic machines? Gaggia Magenta Plus? Mine is at 10sec for espresso shot no matter how I grind or which coffe I use, don’t think there is a way to change that… is there???
Hi IS, Thanks for the question. Shot timing does not apply to super-automatic machines. There are a few super-automatics like the Gaggia Accademia and Babila which have adjustable flow control to slow down extractions. Check out the Accademia here: th-cam.com/video/GiWzwNMD1fw/w-d-xo.html
Marc
I need that shot glass you use in the video. I use a double shot glass I got from sampling beer at a brewery. Do you sell this?
Hey KN, This is the one in video https: www.wholelattelove.com/products/lf-spare-parts-3-spout-2-oz-shot-glass
Also this: www.wholelattelove.com/products/revolution-dual-spout-shot-glass-3oz
@@Wholelattelovepage Excellent! I have a Gaggia Evolution that was purchased from you maybe 10 years ago or so. I also have an old Gaggia Espresso that was purchased from your site in the 1990s that I still have, but I think the pump died on it. Both have/had a lot of miles on them
Hi, My first machine is a Breville Barista Express. I am fairly new to all of this but enjoying every moment. My question is about the 20-30 second timing. Since my filters are 54 mm and not the standard 58 mm, should I change my expectations regarding the target time limits? TIA
Hi MsKJ, Welcome to the wonderful world of espresso and thanks for the question. Timing remains the same. Smaller basket has less holes and/or engineered smaller diameter to produce similar timing. Remember timing is not the end all to quality of shot. Also with your Breville I believe it ships with Dual Wall pressurized baskets. Timing ponly applies when using standard single wall non-pressurized filter baskets.
Marc
Thanks
@MsKJ Barista Express is basically a Breville Infuser but with built-in grinder. I have an Infuser and can tell you unequivocally that the Barista Express ships with both pressurized and non-pressurized double and single baskets. But you probably know that by now.
The breville pro automatically turns off at 30s which includes pre infusion time. How do other breville users bypass this?!
Hey Mark,
I have been watching WLL videos for a long time and just purchased an ECM Synchronika! Super excited to use it and want to be prepared when it comes in. Just wondering how do you keep the exterior stainless steel clean? What type of cleaners do you use to get off water spots, coffee oils and then just to shine up the stainless steel to its former glory? Thank you!
Hi s m, Synchronika is an awesome machine - my favorite dual boiler. Did you get it with flow control? Also great question! I do my best to have the machines looking beautiful for video and photographs. I honestly spend nearly as much time cleaning machines as I do pulling shots. I've tried a variety of products over the years for cleaning. I've found simple ammonia based window cleaner is the most effective for mirror finished stainless panels. Helps to have some good micro-fiber towels. just spray and wipe. Typical kitchen towels tend to be a little too coarse in texture for effective cleaning. Window cleaner also works well to remove milk baked on to steam wands. Saturate a towel with cleaner and hold on the wand for 10-20 seconds and baked on milk comes right off. Do rinse with clean water. For drip trays, group heads, shower screens, portafilters, filter baskets and backflushing the go to product is Cafiza. It's amazingly effective and standard in coffee shops. Plus a little goes a long way: www.wholelattelove.com/products/urnex-cafiza-espresso-machine-cleaner
Hope that helps and enjoy your new machine!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage If using window cleaner and micro fiber cloth, make sure machine is cool and not hot!!!!
Best method I’ve seen so far. Great job, Marc!
Hi Roblastem, Thanks for the comment - It's appreciated!
Marc
What about single shots? They contain less coffee but extracting it for 25 sec makes it watery and the ratio doesn’t correspond
Hey im trying to dial in my espresso machine its non pressurised im currently using 19 grams of freshly ground coffee and im getting 40 ml in 26 seconds is that ok? Thanks
Hey Daniel, Sounds like you're going for a typical 1:2 brew ratio with the 19g in 40ml out. It may be okay but much depends on the type of coffee you are using. It's difficult to judge brew ratios using liquid volume as ml does not always equal grams. That's especially true if the coffee produces a lot of crema. Not unusual for 19g of coffee to produce a liquid volume (including crema) of 70ml that weighs 40g.
Marc
I'm using a lamzorrco linea classic and normally pull double shots. I've got the dose set appropriately. Using lavazza beans. I've set the extraction at 28 seconds, but this is from the time I hit the button. Meaning the espresso makes contact with water and that's when I start the timer. Should I be giving it a few extra seconds? The shots do taste a tad sour. Hard to tell if it's bitter or sour but it's definitely off a bit.
Hi TM, Thanks for the question. You can time from pump on or from first drip. Timing is relative to your machine only. Use it to gauge differences in shots you pull. Sour generally indicates under-extraction so going a little longer, grinding a bit finer, upping the dose a bit or increasing brew temperature are all options. Best case would be to use a scale and weigh output into your cup with timing in the ballpark of 20-30 from first drip. If you do use weight try pulling at a 1:2 ratio. So if using a 17g dose of ground coffee you would stop the shot to get 34g in your cup.
Marc
James Hoffmann where are you? what's your take on the "when to start timing" debate? Would love to hear his 2 cents on this
Jonathan Schwarz he believes you should time from when the water hits the puck. I asked him not long back!
Hi, I've been using Acaia scales now and again. Timer on those starts when weight is registered in shot glass. As mentioned in video timing is the most basic method of extraction appraisal. I choose 1st drip as I work with so many different types of machines. At end of day it's just a reference. If using same machine all the time start when you like.
Marc
From pump on for the Hoff but he's a barista/roaster/coffee shop owner using good professional machines . Horses for courses
Hoff also admits that he does not use an home espresso machine.
I prefer Marc’s method - much more failsafe
So Marc @wholelattelove I’m little lost right now. First of all I’m using the 1:2 brew ratio, 17gr of beans 34gr of liquid and I have a Rocket appartamento but I start my timer as soon as I turn the pump on and with pre infusion I have the 34gr of liquid in about 28-30 seconds (5sec pre infusion + 23sec). Is that right? Because to be honest the coffee doesn’t taste so good.....
Hi d, That sounds like reasonable timing. Keep in mind timing is just to get you in the ballpark and is only useful in comparison to your own or an identical machine. If not tasting good a few thoughts. You might try different grind sizes to get different timings to achieve your desired brew ratio. See how that changes flavor. Also, just asking if you are doing a cooling flush prior to extraction. In an HX boiler machine with pressurestat temp control initial blast of brew water is almost always overheated - typically above 99C/211F. Especially true if the machine has been sitting idle for awhile. Do a short flush until water flow is smooth from the group before doing an extraction. How does your coffee taste? If sour that's generally an under-extraction. If bitter it's usually an over-extraction.
Marc
Whole Latte Love thanks Marc for the quick reply. I always do a cooling flush and to be honest today I’ve tried 18gr of coffee and the results were a bit better. But tomorrow I’m gonna set my grinder a bit coarser to see if I’m going to have better extraction. Thanks again for your help.
dsmpampis my pleasure! Let us know how it goes.