I never understood why the field judge change was made. There were no instances where the judge actually interfered and injured a member of a corps. I personally think of the time in 2014 when crown dropped a drum on the field and the judge picked it up running across the field to give it back and listen to them nearly all the way out on the far sideline. Judges can’t do their job properly this way.
It’s partially because there was a field judge not paying attention during a Legends show in 2018 who got smacked by a bass drum during a fast turn. It was more of the judges fault for lack of situational awareness, but still contributed to the decision.
Totally agree with this! At this year's Drums Along the Rockies show, the percussion judge to an admirable extent did go out onto the field to judge the drum line. It was so noticeable, I wondered if the rules had been changed back.
At the ATL show, I could see J(eff?) Brooks moving the entire show He even got on to the field at the numbers during SCV to watch the battery. He was booking it from in front of the pit to behind them to watch the drums.
Just listened to a tape (undisclosed judge) where they said “man I wish I was back there to hear all that” which implies the judges inability to not just evaluate, but even just hear the beats. To me, that restriction / prevention of a judge to make a conscious decision to position himself in a good spot to evaluate is a problem. I understand member safety is a key goal here but I think a compromise can be found. As someone who marched before, during, and after the removal of P1/P2, there was a noticeable shift in how I felt programs as a whole were being evaluated and the accuracy (or rather inaccuracy) of the tapes. It felt like 60-70% of the book could’ve been played perfectly or been a dumpster fire and would’ve had little to no affect on the analysis or score, as opposed to turning around in the middle of a run and gun movement and seeing J Pro or Pipitone sniffing your taps all the way through a brass pass-through. That level of constant engagement from a judge really brought an edge and focus to performance that I feel has gotten lost to some degree. Being able to execute with professionalism and composure at the most tired, nervous, and effort-demanding part of the show is as valuable to me as the cool lick you play behind the sideline and practice the majority of every day. Long story short I think P1/P2 was a great way to split the responsibilities of listening for content/ clarity/ front to back alignment etc, while also having a checks and balances within the perc score and be able to corroborate clarity on the field with clarity up front. I also say this as unbiased as possible, the group I am affiliated with is currently doing pretty well in percussion at the moment so the argument that I’m complaining because my horse isn’t winning the race is invalid. 🙂 That being said, I do believe competitive success is a by-product of your character and excellence outside of the performance field and even outside of the rehearsal field. It shouldn’t be your sole motivator for doing this activity. There are a lot of factors both in and out of your control that must align for you to win. If you chase that and only that, you are going in the wrong direction. The most rewarding person to compete and win against is yourself. Being a better person and member everyday and creating a culture and environment that encourages excellence is what makes a “winning” drumline. Now having a good judge system to recognize that is nice too haha
well said! and also, we have to ask ourselves what the trade-off was, re: getting judges off the field. for what--more props?? the decision just smacks of an organization that is out of touch with what the activity is all about...
The on field judge can really dig in to what the kids are playing face to faces. SCV’s battery has a lot of meat in their show but probably not picked up from the sideline and the box because there is not a on field judge picking all of it up.
Agreed! Side note: does anyone know how long Allan Kristiansen has been a DCI percussion judge?? He was there in 2000, my first year marching and I still see him out there judging now. Definitely one of the greats.
The biggest problem with drum crops are themselves, it just feels soulless without judges on the field. These kids are pouring their hearts into beats that aren’t even being heard or seen because of the judge/FloMarching camera issues. These changes should be in favor of the kids, not the adults who aren’t on the field.
I think it can be a bit of a trap for the perc judge to match the energy of the brass and visual prof judges rather than the performers, but the latter two judges don't need to move down the sideline with urgency to get a diverse sampling and good read on the overall performance.
I agree with this. There is no way to properly judge each drumline after seeing the show for the first time if you're stuck on the front sideline. You're trying to listen to the line 50 yards away while they're covered by a wall of sound from the hornline it just isn't possible to critique them the same way. There is also a clip of the percussion judge being trapped by the front ensemble during a BAC show since he can't move past the front sideline and the hornline encircled him. Limiting the judges mobility isn't the way to go
I think it was 2014 that an on field judge actually gave a snare drummer their drum back when it fell off the harness so they could finish playing the show which I think was pretty awesome
I believe the argument was also made that drill was getting more complicated as well, which is definitely true. It's a lot harder for judges to follow on field that it used to be. Also, despite members not being injured, judges have definitely been injured on the field during shows. That being said, definitely agreed that it doesn't seem quite right. P1 and P2 sounds like a much better option, and judges can definitely do a better job of getting out in front of the battery and the front.
100% agree. and i just want to add how incredibly invaluable the judge's tape itself was, as a document/record of a line's final product on the field. of course it doesn't catch everything--that's impossible with just one judge on the field, but the judge's tape offered real proof of a drumline's mettle, on the field, when it really mattered. the tape was the purest, least refutable evidence of a line's quality of sound, and offered a way to settle differences of opinion. you think 93 cadets' line was cleaner that star? well, let's check the tape! there was just no better way, other than storming the field yourself during finals and running around with the corps, to hear what the line actually sounded like. and i still love to go back to those tapes! it's a rush to listen to, like, charlie poole or glen crosby lose their shit over a perfectly executed roll. it's part of the culture. and now that's gone. but beyond denying this critical artifact of a corp's ultimate product, i just find the whole thing and the way they went about it really insulting? like, each and every drummer who marches pours everything they have into being the best musician they can be alongside their brothers and sisters in the line. really prioritizing/acknowledging the importance of being clean, of being able to determine who is piss clean vs who is just regular clean means the world to them--that was the whole game, you know? and im not necessarily talking about scores, right? scores are one thing, but more than that, i feel like everyone involved in the activity claimed that execution at the highest levels was the name of the game--until it just, wasn't? "oh yeah, that whole thing about caring who is the cleanest line? yeah not so much...we're just not doing that anymore. oh, but don't worry, we'll still let the judges stand on the sideline." like, what? i dunno yall, it just feels like a stab in the back sometimes, and more than amps or samples, props or show length, i feel like this change really threatens/damages what this activity is all about.
The only part of member safety that I believe is going to be a top concern is Heat. Global warming is going to bring this activity down more than anything else in the foreseeable future, corps are already rehearsing less due to record setting temps summer after summer. Wondering how many seasons we’ll have left… I aged out in 2016 so On-field judges is all I know. Bring em back!
FE bias warning One tangential thing I felt as a former member… the FE doesn’t really contribute to the visual score, so often it felt like our overall score was out of my hands. (It’s even worse in wgi, where my performance could only affect 60/100 possible points) With that in mind, is it really that bad that front ensembles contribute a bit more to the perc music score than the battery because the judges are on the sideline? It’s literally all we do all summer and the battery at least affects the vis caption so their effort still matters more in the end
I've actually never been a fan of a judge on the field because they're invariably always missing something. I watched drum corps for decades where the judge is stuck on the field and is missing out on a cool front ensemble moment, and vice versa. As a show designer/arranger myself, that used to drive me nuts, especially since you spent countless hours refining the show and some judge is hanging out with the wrong section at the wrong time. When I do judge percussion (albeit high school), I prefer to be in the stands so I can take it all in. I can quickly jump to wherever I need to be with my eyes and ears, rather than sprinting here and there, only to just miss something because I didn't make it in time. Having a judge on the field assumes that the battery has their moments and the pit has theirs and never shall the two meet. Yes, I also understand that it's impossible to read everything, especially when the battery is close to the back hash, BUT, I think being in the stands is maybe the lesser of two evils in the "readable" category. I do agree with y'all that shows are too long--put a 10-min. cap on it!
You can easily have a staff member who knows the show with the percussion judge on the field with. Not to tell them exactly where to go, but to make sure that they are safe for big drill moves or if they might back up to a guard member.
As a member of a corps whose battery staging is…sub-optimal, reinstating field judges would greatly help with the accuracy of the percussion scores.
PREACH BOYS! It’s bogus … and it’s obvious on the scores that the reads aren’t translating to where the lines should really be placed (in execution)
I never understood why the field judge change was made. There were no instances where the judge actually interfered and injured a member of a corps. I personally think of the time in 2014 when crown dropped a drum on the field and the judge picked it up running across the field to give it back and listen to them nearly all the way out on the far sideline. Judges can’t do their job properly this way.
It’s partially because there was a field judge not paying attention during a Legends show in 2018 who got smacked by a bass drum during a fast turn. It was more of the judges fault for lack of situational awareness, but still contributed to the decision.
Prosperie is awesome. He's enjoying it as much as the kids. Sad that is gone.
Him weaving in and out of the drill and dodging props and guard members like it's a Wipeout course will always be peak 🙌🏼
If DCI had the current percussion judging system back then, Crown would've gone undefeated in 2013.
Totally agree with this! At this year's Drums Along the Rockies show, the percussion judge to an admirable extent did go out onto the field to judge the drum line. It was so noticeable, I wondered if the rules had been changed back.
If the drumline could somehow be mic’d, then the judges could listen to it from anywhere.
At the ATL show, I could see J(eff?) Brooks moving the entire show
He even got on to the field at the numbers during SCV to watch the battery. He was booking it from in front of the pit to behind them to watch the drums.
Just listened to a tape (undisclosed judge) where they said “man I wish I was back there to hear all that” which implies the judges inability to not just evaluate, but even just hear the beats. To me, that restriction / prevention of a judge to make a conscious decision to position himself in a good spot to evaluate is a problem. I understand member safety is a key goal here but I think a compromise can be found.
As someone who marched before, during, and after the removal of P1/P2, there was a noticeable shift in how I felt programs as a whole were being evaluated and the accuracy (or rather inaccuracy) of the tapes. It felt like 60-70% of the book could’ve been played perfectly or been a dumpster fire and would’ve had little to no affect on the analysis or score, as opposed to turning around in the middle of a run and gun movement and seeing J Pro or Pipitone sniffing your taps all the way through a brass pass-through. That level of constant engagement from a judge really brought an edge and focus to performance that I feel has gotten lost to some degree. Being able to execute with professionalism and composure at the most tired, nervous, and effort-demanding part of the show is as valuable to me as the cool lick you play behind the sideline and practice the majority of every day. Long story short I think P1/P2 was a great way to split the responsibilities of listening for content/ clarity/ front to back alignment etc, while also having a checks and balances within the perc score and be able to corroborate clarity on the field with clarity up front.
I also say this as unbiased as possible, the group I am affiliated with is currently doing pretty well in percussion at the moment so the argument that I’m complaining because my horse isn’t winning the race is invalid. 🙂
That being said, I do believe competitive success is a by-product of your character and excellence outside of the performance field and even outside of the rehearsal field. It shouldn’t be your sole motivator for doing this activity. There are a lot of factors both in and out of your control that must align for you to win. If you chase that and only that, you are going in the wrong direction. The most rewarding person to compete and win against is yourself. Being a better person and member everyday and creating a culture and environment that encourages excellence is what makes a “winning” drumline. Now having a good judge system to recognize that is nice too haha
Amen 🙏
well said! and also, we have to ask ourselves what the trade-off was, re: getting judges off the field. for what--more props?? the decision just smacks of an organization that is out of touch with what the activity is all about...
Well said!
The on field judge can really dig in to what the kids are playing face to faces. SCV’s battery has a lot of meat in their show but probably not picked up from the sideline and the box because there is not a on field judge picking all of it up.
Agreed! Side note: does anyone know how long Allan Kristiansen has been a DCI percussion judge?? He was there in 2000, my first year marching and I still see him out there judging now. Definitely one of the greats.
@MVictorDelgado I've seen videos of him going back to the 90s but not sure what year he started
@@NebrasKorneater yeah that’s what I thought. Definitely at least from the 90’s
Only need Jeff Prosperie and no one else: He’s the BEST IN THE BUSINESS-BAR NONE!
On field judges were always a hype as a member.
I agree.
The biggest problem with drum crops are themselves, it just feels soulless without judges on the field. These kids are pouring their hearts into beats that aren’t even being heard or seen because of the judge/FloMarching camera issues. These changes should be in favor of the kids, not the adults who aren’t on the field.
I think it can be a bit of a trap for the perc judge to match the energy of the brass and visual prof judges rather than the performers, but the latter two judges don't need to move down the sideline with urgency to get a diverse sampling and good read on the overall performance.
I agree with this. There is no way to properly judge each drumline after seeing the show for the first time if you're stuck on the front sideline. You're trying to listen to the line 50 yards away while they're covered by a wall of sound from the hornline it just isn't possible to critique them the same way.
There is also a clip of the percussion judge being trapped by the front ensemble during a BAC show since he can't move past the front sideline and the hornline encircled him. Limiting the judges mobility isn't the way to go
I think it was 2014 that an on field judge actually gave a snare drummer their drum back when it fell off the harness so they could finish playing the show which I think was pretty awesome
I believe the argument was also made that drill was getting more complicated as well, which is definitely true. It's a lot harder for judges to follow on field that it used to be.
Also, despite members not being injured, judges have definitely been injured on the field during shows.
That being said, definitely agreed that it doesn't seem quite right. P1 and P2 sounds like a much better option, and judges can definitely do a better job of getting out in front of the battery and the front.
Bring back judges on the field.
100% agree. and i just want to add how incredibly invaluable the judge's tape itself was, as a document/record of a line's final product on the field. of course it doesn't catch everything--that's impossible with just one judge on the field, but the judge's tape offered real proof of a drumline's mettle, on the field, when it really mattered. the tape was the purest, least refutable evidence of a line's quality of sound, and offered a way to settle differences of opinion. you think 93 cadets' line was cleaner that star? well, let's check the tape! there was just no better way, other than storming the field yourself during finals and running around with the corps, to hear what the line actually sounded like. and i still love to go back to those tapes! it's a rush to listen to, like, charlie poole or glen crosby lose their shit over a perfectly executed roll. it's part of the culture. and now that's gone.
but beyond denying this critical artifact of a corp's ultimate product, i just find the whole thing and the way they went about it really insulting? like, each and every drummer who marches pours everything they have into being the best musician they can be alongside their brothers and sisters in the line. really prioritizing/acknowledging the importance of being clean, of being able to determine who is piss clean vs who is just regular clean means the world to them--that was the whole game, you know? and im not necessarily talking about scores, right? scores are one thing, but more than that, i feel like everyone involved in the activity claimed that execution at the highest levels was the name of the game--until it just, wasn't? "oh yeah, that whole thing about caring who is the cleanest line? yeah not so much...we're just not doing that anymore. oh, but don't worry, we'll still let the judges stand on the sideline." like, what? i dunno yall, it just feels like a stab in the back sometimes, and more than amps or samples, props or show length, i feel like this change really threatens/damages what this activity is all about.
Make Judging Great Again🤝
DCI.. The percussion community is BEGGING you!
I agree. I recently saw this. But, I watched Prosperie recently and he’s running back and forth often.
Some of them still make a great effort.
The only part of member safety that I believe is going to be a top concern is Heat. Global warming is going to bring this activity down more than anything else in the foreseeable future, corps are already rehearsing less due to record setting temps summer after summer. Wondering how many seasons we’ll have left…
I aged out in 2016 so On-field judges is all I know. Bring em back!
And bring back P1 and P2!!!
ALL FAX NO PRINTER! 📢
For the algorithm. ✊
Best part of the day 7 1/2
FE bias warning
One tangential thing I felt as a former member… the FE doesn’t really contribute to the visual score, so often it felt like our overall score was out of my hands. (It’s even worse in wgi, where my performance could only affect 60/100 possible points) With that in mind, is it really that bad that front ensembles contribute a bit more to the perc music score than the battery because the judges are on the sideline? It’s literally all we do all summer and the battery at least affects the vis caption so their effort still matters more in the end
I've actually never been a fan of a judge on the field because they're invariably always missing something. I watched drum corps for decades where the judge is stuck on the field and is missing out on a cool front ensemble moment, and vice versa. As a show designer/arranger myself, that used to drive me nuts, especially since you spent countless hours refining the show and some judge is hanging out with the wrong section at the wrong time. When I do judge percussion (albeit high school), I prefer to be in the stands so I can take it all in. I can quickly jump to wherever I need to be with my eyes and ears, rather than sprinting here and there, only to just miss something because I didn't make it in time. Having a judge on the field assumes that the battery has their moments and the pit has theirs and never shall the two meet. Yes, I also understand that it's impossible to read everything, especially when the battery is close to the back hash, BUT, I think being in the stands is maybe the lesser of two evils in the "readable" category. I do agree with y'all that shows are too long--put a 10-min. cap on it!
Well the P1 and P2 is the only true way to read it in my opinion. One in the field on in the stands. Gets both worlds, front and battery.
Idea… have a drone follow the battery. Judge watches on a monitor with headphones.
Drones aren’t especially known for their excellent sound quality
A comment for the code!
You can easily have a staff member who knows the show with the percussion judge on the field with. Not to tell them exactly where to go, but to make sure that they are safe for big drill moves or if they might back up to a guard member.
Here’s a compromise. Judges on the field for regional and world champs.
Or like it was mentioned. No judges on the field until after DCI SW.