but they forgot brad miller and they actually chose matt harpring over ruben ratterson and michael dickerson who had injury issues over ricky davis..this is a joke...I get it if he was healthy but miller ruben should of been chosen...no disrespect to matt ricky and mike but I watched these guys play and they were clear role players...and ruben was better than them of that group of 4 for a spot...miller was a 2 time all star he was undrafted they forgot about him
Apparently you've got no idea how close Nowitzki came to leaving the NBA during and after his rookie season. Even with Nash "adopting" him and the full support of the Nelsons, he just didn't feel comfortable. I think it's extremely unlikely he'd have stayed with the Clippers. Not just because of the organization. Coming to Dallas was overwhelming, what do you think LA would have done to a 20-year-old who hadn't even played for a big city club in Europe?
Yeah, I'm thinking he definitely would have gone back to Europe. He was set on playing in Germany and going into the army there. That was before Nellie got a look at him and told him he was getting picked if he entered the draft. The raw skill was absolutely there, teams just had weak scouting back then and didn't trust Euros like they do now (which is why Luka was a #1 pick lmao).
Give me Jamison either way. You ain't gonna win them early on, but I sure can swindle another team into giving me great assets with Jamison's first three years.
Don't forget that Vince RE-SIGNED a huge contract with the Raptors AFTER his rookie contract. I don't think it was a "Canada thing". It was more a franchise mismanagement thing.
@@leonzaduncan2438 T-Mac made a bone head move and his tears all those playoff years are the proof. He left a talent laden team just when he was about to break out. His and the Raptors loss. They could have had a championship way before last season if T-Mac stayed.
All told, I’d say Vince Carter carved out a good career for himself. Perennial 20+ point scorer on decent efficiency through 2008, and had good athleticism. Was never someone you could build a championship team around, but was good for a decade before bouncing around the league for a decade more.
They weren't saying Rashar was better than Vince but the way their careers turned out -- Vince as the main guy didn't really translate to success -- you'd rather have other guys like Tmac, Pierce, Dirk etc over Vince but Rashard is somebody you could insert in many teams and pair with your 1st and 2nd top guy in a team and he'll be productive.
I think Vince’s career got derailed due to injury problems in ‘02 and ‘03. One of the most promising careers screwed up by injuries and his mentality. He was wasted in New Jersey, and should have been dealt somewhere else. I wish he had just been loyal to Toronto. By the way, I’m 22, and I think T-Mac was better, no hesitation.
exactly. injuries made him change his play style from a slasher to a shooter. I guess the longevity proves he did everything right, still a waste of talent unfortunately. he was the reason I became a Raptors fan back in the day, which I still am to this day
I think Don Nelson being Dirks first coch was imperative for his long and successful career, i can't see any coach at the time letting their 7ft euro draft pick hoist 3s and basically create the stretch 4 other than Don Nelson.
VC didn't dislike Toronto, he loved it there. He created the nightlife Toronto has today and brought Bottle Service. During the period of time leading to his exit to the Nets he was dealing with a new coach Sam Mitchell, who he disliked and got into a physical fight with, he disliked the management, they were not getting the players he wanted to help win which lead him to saying he will never dunk again because he felt that every night he was going to the hole but it was all for nothing and he kept getting knocked around and getting injured. In addition he had a lot of things in his personal like such as his manager/agent stole tons of money from him right before this time period but he was still dealing with it. He just had a lot of bad luck in Toronto.
He did not create Toronto's night life in anyway, or bring bottle service. It was already a world class city. The management point is fair, but his beef with Sam was a direct result of him already quitting on the team. He didn't just go through a rough time. He sabatoged his play and purposefully sucked.
I agree with Bill that prime T Mac was better than prime Vince but to say that T Mac was way better as a #1 option than Vince when he never advanced past the first round is ludicrous lmao
tmac never got out of the first round because of the team he played for, even carter had a decent team compare to tmac, iverson atleast had old mutombo, pierce had walker , tmac was supposed to have hill and you all know what happened
You can tell they only referenced off the actual draft list and didnt look at who went undrafted that year because Brad Miller is definitely a lottery pick in a Redraftables universe.
I don't know if he's lottery pick but there's no doubt he would have gone in the 1st rd. This draft had some really elite players that would go on to have hall of fame careers.
@@robd1811 Tom Chambers didn't make the hall of fame 20.049 points.. Highest PER season for Antawn is 21.2 average 18.1. He was very consistent, he doesn't feel like a hall of famer to me.
What happened to Carter: 1. His first few years Totonto had a solid front office and then it imploded and Richerd Pettie and Rob Babcock ruined him 2. He did have a bad attitude towards the end with no patience.
I still remember being pissed when my Rockets (who had three 1st round picks in this draft) passed on Rashard Lewis. He went to high school in the Houston area, would have fit perfectly in Rudy T’s offense which put an emphasis on hitting the open 3 which gave Hakeem Olajuwon room to operate, and if he’s still on the team when they get Yao and T-Mac he’s the perfect third scoring option.
bonzi had his momments during that era too , same body type , wears a headband, can post up, shoot from 3, but not as savy as prime paul pierce off the bounce, but bonzi was also one of my fave players at that time
I saw him play in GS, no way he is a HOFer, but sometimes stats get you in, he needed more games where he goes head to head vs Kobe (I believe he once scored 50plus to Kobe’s 50plus)… I wanted the Dubs to take Pierce to be honest as Antwan didn’t really blow my mind at UNC
Please use Chris Ryan more on the sports pods. Seems like he’s used mostly as the pop culture guy and he’s great at that but I wanna hear him talk hoops more
@@jordan12118 No beef, I just think he always bring the conversation down when it comes to sports. Even in the "joke first, facts second" world of The Ringer (a world he had a HUGE hand building in that exact way) he is always going too jokey, taking minutes/space away from people trying to make a real (or pseudo real in Simmons' case) argument first, and the joke second. And when it comes to real analysis... well, you could listen to the whole podcasts, he has nothing to do next to a Russillo.
Agree with the take on vince. Unbelievable talent that could've been better than kobe. You can't blame Canada for him not living to the hype though, he just didnt want it as much as kobe
uh the vince comment about hating canada is so ignorant and wrong. have you seen the carter effect? the country was nowhere near the issue, vince always called toronto the "best kept secret". the issue was the raptors management at the time and tension between them and vince.
If Vince doesn't go to his college graduation dude has a different career. Also taking Bibby before Lewis or Jameson. Dude just had more heart and you can pair that with talent.
White chocolate was the most overrated,style over substance fraud in nba history. Wouldve been great on the Harlem Globetrotters,or that awful streetball league they had that also had nothing to do with winning basketball,or actual production. Drafting him ahead of Coteno Mobley is insane to me. Not a winning player at all. I didnt even think it was fun-cuz it was all bout his ego,& was just a show off sideshow. He did win a title,& grew up a bit at the end. He somewhat redeemed his career late-but didnt make up for early on. But I think his game was total garbage,& wasted nonsense. And I had no dog in the fight...Im a Denver fan. But I did totally hate that guy,cuz I dont think early in his career he gave a fuck bout winning or his teammates...only showing off,& acting like he was some kind of gangsta or pimp...everything thats wrong bout basketball-all style,& absolutely no substance totally sums him up.
Saying that Vince carter didn’t get watched enough during his Toronto years is so wrong. He lead the league in all star voting like 5 years in a row and lead sportscenter regularly.
Vince Carter signed a 6 year contract with the raptors in his 4th season there. And Simmons says he couldn’t wait to get out of Canada. BS. Vince bought a club in Toronto and was always out in public. Americans are just so programmed to put other countries down. Toronto not a major market ? 3rd biggest city in North America. So I guess Chicago isn’t a major market either. And certainly not Boston.
Jackson Gilmore firstly, I’m assuming you are a Celtics fan. Correct me if I’m wrong. And yes Lowry is a star and so is Siakim he hit the game winner against draymond game 6 to win the title. Are they superstars no. But they would be the 2nd and 3rd best players on your team behind Tatum, and I like smart and I like brown but they are better let’s be honest. Tatum is a stud, he has a chance to be a superstar, but he isn’t one yet. I think despite the fact the raptors had a better record this year, Boston and toronto match up well, both deep, well coached strong organizations. I just think people in the states overlook how good Toronto is
1. Dirk- hall of fame 2. Pierce- hall of fame 3. Carter- always thought t-mac was going to be better. Out of 5. I consider him 3rd tear all star. Probably could been better player drafted to different team. 4. R. Lewis- could play any era as shooter 3rd tier star but capable being a 2. More sf not great rebounder. Definitely was over paid. But he could be more useful as 3rd tier then jaminson 5. Jamison- good player but to inconsistent for mid low post player 6. Biby- 3rd tier star good not great scorer but clutch shooting threat 7. Hughes- good defender 3rd or 4th option scorer but also could run offense as he advanced 8. Mobley- 3rd scorer level 9. Harrington- under achieved 10. Lafrenz
Carter was a man child who's mom ran the show. His best years in Toronto were with Charles Oakley on the team and once Charles left you had more guys saying really uneducated things about Canada and Toronto. A lot of bitching. it was weird, there were many Baseball players that loved Toronto, outside of Scott Rolen. Toronto is like New York lite and Carter was a God here but I think it had more to do with responsibility of a superstar. I dont think he wanted that, I don't think he liked carrying a team no matter where it was. As a huge Raptor fan it used to bother the hell out of me how he would be laughing and joking (after Oakley left) during losses. He was not mature.
Mac would've left kobe just like he left carter to be the top guy. Nowitzki would've lost all confidence and went back to Europe bc kobe would be scolding him for being soft. Things happen for a reason
Vince really loved Toronto. He's been on record 100000 times saying this. He hated Babcock and the mess that was the Raps organization in 04/05. It's sad to see such ignorance from people this plugged in.
Michael Eyob Toronto’s superstars always left as soon as their young upcoming star was about to enter his prime. T-Mac left before Carter exploded, Carter left before Bosh became the guy and Bosh left before DeRozan became a top shooting guard
Vince absolutely did NOT hate being in Canada. This is total horseshit. Take it from someone who actually covered him here. Listen to every interview and everything he's said since. He regrets that situation. This is just such an ignorant take and so much misinformation.
9:52 How old is this guy? Was he actually watching the NBA in the prime VC years? Vince Carter was headlining SportsCenter many nights just based on his dunks alone, and the Raptors were getting nationally televised games based on that kind of hype around him. To blame his lack of effort (if it was the case that he lacked effort) on a lack of exposure is way off-base.
I'm a lifetime Nuggets fan, and I'll never forget passing on Vince Carter for Raef LaFrentz. We could have a starting five of 1) Nick Van Exel, 2) Chauncey Billups, 3) Vince Carter, 4) Antonio McDyess, 5) Just some stiff. We would have something work with.
Lol yeah your 21. I was watching ball when they both were in their primes and Vince was better then T Mac. Plus Im in Toronto so I was watching all 82 of their local TV games. Not just watching highlights and box scores like you kids do
Ben Wallace is one of the biggest snubs right now 5 time all NBA, 4 time DPOY, 6 all defensive teams and a chip where if they dont have them they loose.
Bonzi and Ron Artest used their physicality against the Spurs forwards to help find a way to force that 1v8 matchup to 6 games. Bonzi/Artest/Bibby. Bruce Bowen was a good (some would say great) wing defender, and Bonzi and Artest would pound him down low until SAS figured it out. That's where the 23 and 12 came from. Of course I drink a lot, but that is how I remembered that series playing out. Haha
I must say this is definitely entertaining. Thank you for doing this. Listening to this is fun. You guys should do something where each of you ar GMs and pick a season and figure what you would for a couple seasons.
This redraft thing is interesting but it'll even be better if there're former players doing it. Just to see how similar or different they think compared to the Ringer panel.
+1 This is cool... But having Charles Barkley, Gilbert Arenas, & Shaq doing it would be WAAAY more interesting/illuminating 🤔🤔 I'd love to see what Agent Zero's takes would be on some of his contemporaries
Toronto is not retiring Vince's number. The only thing he did was get us to the second round. in his last 2 years he was just dejected and didnt want to commit to winning. Then he subsequently forces his way out of town.
There's a reason 2000-2001 was VC's best year. It's called Charles Oakley. He's the only guy I ever saw who managed to get Vince to try his best. VC did a lot for Toronto, and I'll always love him for it. But he quit on us, no question, and I'll always hate him a little bit for that too.
Imagine that starting line-up in LA: Darrick Martin, Eric Piatkowski, Tyrone Nesby, Maurice Taylor and Dirk Nowitzki! They would have had double digit wins that season!!
Should have kept going til the Candy Man came off the board. Is that the definition of a bust if the 1st overall pick isn't one of the best 15 players in the draft.
*I think Pierce would've had more success on the Clippers than Dirk. I wouldn't have been surprised if Dirk looked like a bust during his time as a Clipper. I have zero faith in that culture.*
I love the disrespect they have for Alston and don’t mention how he played a very key role for the 2009 magic team when Jameer Nelson went down with an injury and Alston was essentially their only point guard and helped them make the finals.
Players who took a leap with Lebron or had their best years with him Chris Bosh AD Kyrie JR Smith Iman Shumpert Matthew Dellavedova Tristan Thompson Rondo, Howard, AD, and Mcgee all clearly leveled up next to Lebron just 2 seasons ago I think Bill's love of Jordan and Bird can force him to downplay Lebron sometimes. Lebron is clearly the greatest floor raiser in NBA history. He had one of the three greatest peaks in NBA history, with it being personal preference whether you want peak Lebron, Jordan or Shaq. Lebron has also had the greatest amount of longevity in NBA history. No one gives you more All-NBA caliber and MVP caliber seasons over the course of their career than Lebron
Jesus Rusillo says well, I didn't bother saying that, but I'm glad you brought it up that is about on par with the idiocy of his statements. I am starved for good sports content and Simmons is about the best. But like so many of these podcasts, the guests make it almost impossible to listen.
I think people hype up Vince so much, just because of that dunk contest. Like he just wasn’t a winner, he wasn’t an incredible defender that could lock guys up. He wasn’t an amazing shooter that could kill you from mid range or from deep, though he had some good seasons shooting the 3. Every team he was on after Toronto, was never better than they were before he was there. NJ made 2 finals, and he didn’t get em back. Phoenix was a contender and had some good seasons and your hope is too bring in vince so Nash can rely on his, but he didn’t help when he was there he couldn’t get them back to contention, Orlando had been to the finals, and he didn’t help them, Dallas won the title and he didn’t help them, Memphis was a really good team, but he was playing like 15-20 minutes a game, and didn’t contribute because he was now old. Atlanta and Sacramento were terrible teams, so he was playing meaningless minutes putting up meaningless points. He just wasn’t a winner, he couldn’t will your team to a deep run. He was a flashy dunker. THATS IT.
I think you are off your rocker if you want Lewis over Jamison. The argument of lewis is a reliable 3rd option while Jamison can't be counted on for the number 1....well neither can Lewis! Jamison is a much much better option for a 3rd option on a team than Lewis is. End of story. Grade them on the same level, not on 1 being the main option and the other is 3rd maybe 4th option.
You clearly edited something out as you three were discussing Lebron & his affect on his teammates. Boo on you Bill, since when are you scared? The Ringer is sold already. For that I hope Matt Harping's son plays for the Celts
There are other networks debating “Who would win, MJ or Lebron in a game of horse”
Thank you for this
Sad part is that more people care or will watch these idiotic espn segments than this...
That's kind of a fun argument to have though
but they forgot brad miller and they actually chose matt harpring over ruben ratterson and michael dickerson who had injury issues over ricky davis..this is a joke...I get it if he was healthy but miller ruben should of been chosen...no disrespect to matt ricky and mike but I watched these guys play and they were clear role players...and ruben was better than them of that group of 4 for a spot...miller was a 2 time all star he was undrafted they forgot about him
@@razkable relax Copernicus
Sneaky russello fire take 🔥
Earl Boykin, brad miller Ricky Davis all should’ve went. Davis especially was a baller for a few years.
Not even a mention for two-time all-star Brad Miller.
probably because he was undrafted
@@dilanmarfatia5923 nope 96 redraft they drafted undrafted Ben Wallace
@@dilanmarfatia5923 That's what I assume otherwise Brad Miller and Earl Boykins are big omissions.
This is a deep draft
I think they forgot about him 🤦♂️
Shout out to all the brad miller burners in this comment section
I’m surprised Brad Miller didn’t make this re-draft
They forgot about him - Ruben Patterson will not get mentioned before Brad Miller if they remembered
Came here to say they must have forgotten him.
two-time All-Star
Sportsnet did a redraft 7 years ago had Brad going 7th but they had Ricky Davis going 11th so take it with a grain of salt.
They forgot about him because he went undrafted, so he wasnt on the list of players they researched.
Dirk even considered going back to europe the first year. On Clippers with the wrong coach, he actually would have gone back..
scotti pippen hell yeah.
Great point probably right
Apparently you've got no idea how close Nowitzki came to leaving the NBA during and after his rookie season. Even with Nash "adopting" him and the full support of the Nelsons, he just didn't feel comfortable. I think it's extremely unlikely he'd have stayed with the Clippers. Not just because of the organization. Coming to Dallas was overwhelming, what do you think LA would have done to a 20-year-old who hadn't even played for a big city club in Europe?
bro relax
@@saml5633 Dirk was soft, he would have bailed for sure
bigman I he wasnt soft. Just new to the U.S. style of play. There’s a difference.
Yeah, I'm thinking he definitely would have gone back to Europe. He was set on playing in Germany and going into the army there. That was before Nellie got a look at him and told him he was getting picked if he entered the draft.
The raw skill was absolutely there, teams just had weak scouting back then and didn't trust Euros like they do now (which is why Luka was a #1 pick lmao).
@@Firebert Luka went 3rd still
In 2020 give me Rashard Lewis over Antawn Jamison. In the 90s/early 2000s give me Jamison.
Give me Jamison either way. You ain't gonna win them early on, but I sure can swindle another team into giving me great assets with Jamison's first three years.
Armando who would fit better on the rockets Lewis or Ray Allen
@@mantgrta9728 either one cant go wrong
Jamison was a better rebounder/scorer almost as good as a shooter
Give me Rashard either way.
"I was at a Clipper game .."
-Bill Simmons every podcast
Bill “I was actually there” Simmons
Y’all buggin with the Al Harrington dis track y’all just made.
Agreed
Brad Miller over Frentz
Don't forget that Vince RE-SIGNED a huge contract with the Raptors AFTER his rookie contract. I don't think it was a "Canada thing". It was more a franchise mismanagement thing.
T-Mac leaving doesn't help.
@@leonzaduncan2438 T-Mac made a bone head move and his tears all those playoff years are the proof. He left a talent laden team just when he was about to break out. His and the Raptors loss. They could have had a championship way before last season if T-Mac stayed.
And he owned a bight club there
Night*
All told, I’d say Vince Carter carved out a good career for himself.
Perennial 20+ point scorer on decent efficiency through 2008, and had good athleticism.
Was never someone you could build a championship team around, but was good for a decade before bouncing around the league for a decade more.
Every week you can count on these guys to disrespect a legend. Who is arguing that Rashard Lewis is better than Vince Carter? Literally nobody
Jake Smooke ikr
Outrageous to even consider
They weren't saying Rashar was better than Vince but the way their careers turned out -- Vince as the main guy didn't really translate to success -- you'd rather have other guys like Tmac, Pierce, Dirk etc over Vince but Rashard is somebody you could insert in many teams and pair with your 1st and 2nd top guy in a team and he'll be productive.
@@zpacify Bill said you can make the case that Rashard should've been picked over Vince Carter. Sorry but you cannot
Jake Smooke i think the angle theyre taking is that their career arc stays the same regardless of who they trade it to
I just wanna thank all 3 of you for making this while we are all stuck at home.
8 months later...... me too bud
@@Harry_Paratesties almost two fucking years later. Just got the virus for the first time
2 years later… me too boys
Here from 2023, these videos hold up
I’d rather have peak Bibby over Jameson and Lewis.
Jeremiah Miller I totally agree. I was surprised they didn't pick him first. Bibby was considerably better
Bibby peak prime numbers, not even all star numbers lol
Peak bibby, but not full career bibby
jamison
The disrespect on Jamison
I think Vince’s career got derailed due to injury problems in ‘02 and ‘03. One of the most promising careers screwed up by injuries and his mentality. He was wasted in New Jersey, and should have been dealt somewhere else. I wish he had just been loyal to Toronto. By the way, I’m 22, and I think T-Mac was better, no hesitation.
exactly. injuries made him change his play style from a slasher to a shooter. I guess the longevity proves he did everything right, still a waste of talent unfortunately. he was the reason I became a Raptors fan back in the day, which I still am to this day
Thank you! I am a huge Vince fan and what they said about the cause of his career was 100% wrong.
Vince with the Nets was arguably the best version of himself throughout his 22 year career.
Vince was never the same after missing that playoff game to got to his graduation true story
TMac was FILTHY. 24 yr old here. Especially in the Orlando years
Larry Hughes easily over Lafrentz and Alston wtf
Nas Holston Larry Hughes was not as good as he was thought to be
@@mantgrta9728 Hughes was better than those two.
MCH ik
I think Don Nelson being Dirks first coch was imperative for his long and successful career, i can't see any coach at the time letting their 7ft euro draft pick hoist 3s and basically create the stretch 4 other than Don Nelson.
VC didn't dislike Toronto, he loved it there. He created the nightlife Toronto has today and brought Bottle Service. During the period of time leading to his exit to the Nets he was dealing with a new coach Sam Mitchell, who he disliked and got into a physical fight with, he disliked the management, they were not getting the players he wanted to help win which lead him to saying he will never dunk again because he felt that every night he was going to the hole but it was all for nothing and he kept getting knocked around and getting injured. In addition he had a lot of things in his personal like such as his manager/agent stole tons of money from him right before this time period but he was still dealing with it. He just had a lot of bad luck in Toronto.
💯💯💯 crazy! I had no idea all that shit was going on and I was following the league hard then
He did not create Toronto's night life in anyway, or bring bottle service. It was already a world class city. The management point is fair, but his beef with Sam was a direct result of him already quitting on the team. He didn't just go through a rough time. He sabatoged his play and purposefully sucked.
@@johnmcm7690Stop the cap. Toronto was not world class back then. I’ve been living here
Has anyone done a count of how many times Bill mentions he had season tickets to the clippers in all of these?
Michael Dickerson was nice before the injuries.
I agree with Bill that prime T Mac was better than prime Vince but to say that T Mac was way better as a #1 option than Vince when he never advanced past the first round is ludicrous lmao
Facts
T Mac had a higher peak but Vince was still really really good.
If T-Mac would stayed, so would he.
Yeah but Vince didn't get past the 2 round and was out in the first a lot bottom line you need a team around you
tmac never got out of the first round because of the team he played for, even carter had a decent team compare to tmac, iverson atleast had old mutombo, pierce had walker , tmac was supposed to have hill and you all know what happened
Man I love these redraft episodes !!! Really glad I stumbled upon this channel keep up the awesome content guys
You can tell they only referenced off the actual draft list and didnt look at who went undrafted that year because Brad Miller is definitely a lottery pick in a Redraftables universe.
Albert Wright Facts
I don't know if he's lottery pick but there's no doubt he would have gone in the 1st rd. This draft had some really elite players that would go on to have hall of fame careers.
@@dougless4019
Well shit if these guys are casuals than im not even a fan.
No
Antawn Jamison has 0% chance of making the Hall. Sorry, Bill.
20000 points is a shoe in like having over 10000 rushing yards in the NFL (not that that's a shoe in in the NFL but it's the measuring stick)
@@robd1811 Tom Chambers didn't make the hall of fame 20.049 points.. Highest PER season for Antawn is 21.2 average 18.1. He was very consistent, he doesn't feel like a hall of famer to me.
If you get 20k you make the hall out of eligible players with 20k only him and Tom chambers haven't made it the math is on Jamison's side
kaykay that's why joe Johnson gets in too if this was the NFL hall neither would but everyone gets in in the bball hall of fame
He'll go in because he was great at UNC
What happened to Carter:
1. His first few years Totonto had a solid front office and then it imploded and Richerd Pettie and Rob Babcock ruined him
2. He did have a bad attitude towards the end with no patience.
You're forgetting the coaching after Lenny Wilkins left were average. Plus Mark Jackson got old
Yes, all true. I was just highlighting for the clueless American media that don't know anything about Toronto sports teams.
He hated living in Toronto too
I still remember being pissed when my Rockets (who had three 1st round picks in this draft) passed on Rashard Lewis. He went to high school in the Houston area, would have fit perfectly in Rudy T’s offense which put an emphasis on hitting the open 3 which gave Hakeem Olajuwon room to operate, and if he’s still on the team when they get Yao and T-Mac he’s the perfect third scoring option.
Bonzi Wells was always a guy I wish my team would have on the bench lol he's like a bench Paul Pierce
Perfect, lol.
in 2020 the best comp for peak bonzi would be jerami grant
bonzi had his momments during that era too , same body type , wears a headband, can post up, shoot from 3, but not as savy as prime paul pierce off the bounce, but bonzi was also one of my fave players at that time
I would easily take Bibby over both Rashard Lewis and Antawn Jamison
if Antawn Jamison makes the HOF, what the hell are we doing here?
Worse players have made it
PlatinumState Agree, there are way worse players than Jamison that have made the HOF
It says something about our society..scared to hurt someone
I saw him play in GS, no way he is a HOFer, but sometimes stats get you in, he needed more games where he goes head to head vs Kobe (I believe he once scored 50plus to Kobe’s 50plus)… I wanted the Dubs to take Pierce to be honest as Antwan didn’t really blow my mind at UNC
THis draft was way better than 97
Please use Chris Ryan more on the sports pods. Seems like he’s used mostly as the pop culture guy and he’s great at that but I wanna hear him talk hoops more
The absolute opposite of this, please.
@@Teukro Sorry I think he's good, what's your beef with Chris Ryan?
@Teukro Jordan Davis aka quarantined Chris Ryan
@@jordan12118 No beef, I just think he always bring the conversation down when it comes to sports. Even in the "joke first, facts second" world of The Ringer (a world he had a HUGE hand building in that exact way) he is always going too jokey, taking minutes/space away from people trying to make a real (or pseudo real in Simmons' case) argument first, and the joke second. And when it comes to real analysis... well, you could listen to the whole podcasts, he has nothing to do next to a Russillo.
@@jordan12118 he sucks
Agree with the take on vince. Unbelievable talent that could've been better than kobe. You can't blame Canada for him not living to the hype though, he just didnt want it as much as kobe
Vince was soft...incredibly talented...didnt put in the work
He made 2 finals appearances
@@ManFinest Never even made a Conference Final appearance lol. He wasn't on the Nets for their '02 or '03 runs.
@@matts4933 He wasn't on the Mavericks 2011 or Magic 2009?
@@ManFinest Are you seriously being this lazy? Google it. Geezus.
Oakley left and he softened up. Plain And simple
uh the vince comment about hating canada is so ignorant and wrong. have you seen the carter effect? the country was nowhere near the issue, vince always called toronto the "best kept secret". the issue was the raptors management at the time and tension between them and vince.
Matt harping lol what a throwback
Thank god there's something to have on in the background as I'm alone in my apartment
Boo hoo 😭
If Vince doesn't go to his college graduation dude has a different career.
Also taking Bibby before Lewis or Jameson. Dude just had more heart and you can pair that with talent.
Hughes was always hurt in Cleveland...not fair blaming that on lebron Bill.
22:18 Russillo talks about his dating life
White chocolate was the most overrated,style over substance fraud in nba history. Wouldve been great on the Harlem Globetrotters,or that awful streetball league they had that also had nothing to do with winning basketball,or actual production. Drafting him ahead of Coteno Mobley is insane to me. Not a winning player at all. I didnt even think it was fun-cuz it was all bout his ego,& was just a show off sideshow.
He did win a title,& grew up a bit at the end. He somewhat redeemed his career late-but didnt make up for early on. But I think his game was total garbage,& wasted nonsense.
And I had no dog in the fight...Im a Denver fan. But I did totally hate that guy,cuz I dont think early in his career he gave a fuck bout winning or his teammates...only showing off,& acting like he was some kind of gangsta or pimp...everything thats wrong bout basketball-all style,& absolutely no substance totally sums him up.
Crazy Vince still in the league!!
@Jahod D. it'd be a shame if COVID-19 kills his career. but he's been awful this season, so i think he's done
He retired after the league suspended play
Vinsanity future hof
T Mac became a better number 1 than Vince. Watch the VC doc on Netflix. Very interesting etc.
R.I.P Lorenzon Wright you are missed
Watching all these redraft videos, if you pay attention real closely, Bill Simmons never fails to throw a shot a Lebron in some way lol.
feels like ive been waiting in my bubble forever for another pod. who would have thought back in 2009 id be listening to bill simmons podcasts in 2020
This podcast needed Joe House! Look at Antawn in Washington.
Carter bailed on Raptors like harden does when he doesn’t want to play somewhere
Saying that Vince carter didn’t get watched enough during his Toronto years is so wrong. He lead the league in all star voting like 5 years in a row and lead sportscenter regularly.
"I drafted him bc maybe in a different world he doesn't get hurt"
Okay so I want that same energy with Drose in the 2008 redrafts
Vince Carter signed a 6 year contract with the raptors in his 4th season there. And Simmons says he couldn’t wait to get out of Canada. BS. Vince bought a club in Toronto and was always out in public. Americans are just so programmed to put other countries down. Toronto not a major market ? 3rd biggest city in North America. So I guess Chicago isn’t a major market either. And certainly not Boston.
Jackson Gilmore firstly, I’m assuming you are a Celtics fan. Correct me if I’m wrong. And yes Lowry is a star and so is Siakim he hit the game winner against draymond game 6 to win the title. Are they superstars no. But they would be the 2nd and 3rd best players on your team behind Tatum, and I like smart and I like brown but they are better let’s be honest. Tatum is a stud, he has a chance to be a superstar, but he isn’t one yet. I think despite the fact the raptors had a better record this year, Boston and toronto match up well, both deep, well coached strong organizations. I just think people in the states overlook how good Toronto is
Al Harrington over Lafrentz any day and over J Williams also
1. Dirk- hall of fame
2. Pierce- hall of fame
3. Carter- always thought t-mac was going to be better. Out of 5. I consider him 3rd tear all star. Probably could been better player drafted to different team.
4. R. Lewis- could play any era as shooter
3rd tier star but capable being a 2. More sf not great rebounder. Definitely was over paid. But he could be more useful as 3rd tier then jaminson
5. Jamison- good player but to inconsistent for mid low post player
6. Biby- 3rd tier star good not great scorer but clutch shooting threat
7. Hughes- good defender 3rd or 4th option scorer but also could run offense as he advanced
8. Mobley- 3rd scorer level
9. Harrington- under achieved
10. Lafrenz
Gotta take j will over al hughes and lafrentz...sorry
as someone not alive for any of these years, its super enjoyable to listen to you guys do this.
Carter was a man child who's mom ran the show. His best years in Toronto were with Charles Oakley on the team and once Charles left you had more guys saying really uneducated things about Canada and Toronto. A lot of bitching. it was weird, there were many Baseball players that loved Toronto, outside of Scott Rolen. Toronto is like New York lite and Carter was a God here but I think it had more to do with responsibility of a superstar. I dont think he wanted that, I don't think he liked carrying a team no matter where it was. As a huge Raptor fan it used to bother the hell out of me how he would be laughing and joking (after Oakley left) during losses. He was not mature.
I think mark Jackson and Lenny Wilkins also helped him .
Vince was a spoiled baby it seemed especially with coach Mitchell
76ers had the chance to draft Kobe, T Mac, Dirk three years in a row. Wild what if team.
Vantablac SOL they always fuck up the draft. They get it right barely
Vantablac SOL they got Allen Iverson instead of kobe sooooo
They would’ve gotten scorched if they drafted Kobe over AI.
Mac would've left kobe just like he left carter to be the top guy. Nowitzki would've lost all confidence and went back to Europe bc kobe would be scolding him for being soft. Things happen for a reason
Kobe is a true miss because he's a hometown dude. Like D.Rose going to the Bulls.
Fun pod! I think Brad Miller should of been drafted.
Rashad Lewis is responsible for us not getting a lebron-kobe finals in 2009
Vince really loved Toronto. He's been on record 100000 times saying this. He hated Babcock and the mess that was the Raps organization in 04/05. It's sad to see such ignorance from people this plugged in.
Tracy McGrady should never have left the Raptors. Then he leaves Orlando right when they draft Dwight Howard. He always left at the worst time.
Michael Eyob Toronto’s superstars always left as soon as their young upcoming star was about to enter his prime. T-Mac left before Carter exploded, Carter left before Bosh became the guy and Bosh left before DeRozan became a top shooting guard
@@K2MNI Tmac could see Carter was a star. Carter averaged 25 there and he went to Orlando to do be with Hill and be in Florida.
He left because he thought he was gonna play with grant hill and time duncan, plus he’s from Florida.
@Ringer You should put the podcast time stamps in the vid description!
Love reading these comments a bunch of Albert Einstein's in here lmao .
41 minutes and 41 seconds!
Ive always loved Ryen but theres no denying he is huge hater....
Mad disrespectful to Larry Hughes. He was a great defender and solid scorer.
I agree, I was a huge fan of him back in the day.
Vince absolutely did NOT hate being in Canada. This is total horseshit. Take it from someone who actually covered him here. Listen to every interview and everything he's said since. He regrets that situation. This is just such an ignorant take and so much misinformation.
9:52 How old is this guy? Was he actually watching the NBA in the prime VC years? Vince Carter was headlining SportsCenter many nights just based on his dunks alone, and the Raptors were getting nationally televised games based on that kind of hype around him. To blame his lack of effort (if it was the case that he lacked effort) on a lack of exposure is way off-base.
I'm a lifetime Nuggets fan, and I'll never forget passing on Vince Carter for Raef LaFrentz. We could have a starting five of 1) Nick Van Exel, 2) Chauncey Billups, 3) Vince Carter, 4) Antonio McDyess, 5) Just some stiff. We would have something work with.
I'm 21 and If you have eyes you can see Tmac was better than Vince
Lol yeah your 21. I was watching ball when they both were in their primes and Vince was better then T Mac. Plus Im in Toronto so I was watching all 82 of their local TV games. Not just watching highlights and box scores like you kids do
antawn jamiso nwill never ever be in the hall of fame
ben wallace, chris webber, bill laimbeer are not even in it yet so
Ben Wallace is one of the biggest snubs right now 5 time all NBA, 4 time DPOY, 6 all defensive teams and a chip where if they dont have them they loose.
Jamison was better than rashard lewis
I love these
All facts about Vince Carter
Carter was a better player than pierce
Bonzi and Ron Artest used their physicality against the Spurs forwards to help find a way to force that 1v8 matchup to 6 games. Bonzi/Artest/Bibby. Bruce Bowen was a good (some would say great) wing defender, and Bonzi and Artest would pound him down low until SAS figured it out. That's where the 23 and 12 came from. Of course I drink a lot, but that is how I remembered that series playing out. Haha
Im 24 and VC aint close to tmac imo
Alot of good forgotten players from 9 to 15. Rafer Alston was a forgotten man. Had a nice career
Ricky Davis was that dude, mad entertaining and so forgotten about now that it’s sad...him and Larry Hughes need more respect frfr
Ricky davis was that dude that would lead the team in scoring and lose every single night
Yeah, id rather have Bibby than Jamison or Lewis honestly.
ryan rusillo ? he knows nothing
How is it that 22 years after Dirk got drafted, people still can’t say his name? The W in his named should be pronounced like a V.
I must say this is definitely entertaining. Thank you for doing this. Listening to this is fun. You guys should do something where each of you ar GMs and pick a season and figure what you would for a couple seasons.
This redraft thing is interesting but it'll even be better if there're former players doing it. Just to see how similar or different they think compared to the Ringer panel.
+1
This is cool... But having Charles Barkley, Gilbert Arenas, & Shaq doing it would be WAAAY more interesting/illuminating 🤔🤔
I'd love to see what Agent Zero's takes would be on some of his contemporaries
Toronto is not retiring Vince's number. The only thing he did was get us to the second round. in his last 2 years he was just dejected and didnt want to commit to winning. Then he subsequently forces his way out of town.
There's a reason 2000-2001 was VC's best year. It's called Charles Oakley. He's the only guy I ever saw who managed to get Vince to try his best. VC did a lot for Toronto, and I'll always love him for it. But he quit on us, no question, and I'll always hate him a little bit for that too.
Marc Fournier vc hasn't been good for 10 years
Thought you cornball Canadiens didn't hate anyone
cole eason Great joke bro.... and we’re the cornballs
@@chiefw3573 what's really funny is that I've been called CHIEF since I been on the planet wats the W for bro
And how many times have you seen some grown person spell CHIEF like this cheif
Imagine that starting line-up in LA: Darrick Martin, Eric Piatkowski, Tyrone Nesby, Maurice Taylor and Dirk Nowitzki! They would have had double digit wins that season!!
Should have kept going til the Candy Man came off the board. Is that the definition of a bust if the 1st overall pick isn't one of the best 15 players in the draft.
One underrated aspect of Olowokandi: He was listed as weighing "269 pounds," instead of just saying 270, and that always annoyed me.
If you dont like Al Harrington you just aint see him on all the smoke
*I think Pierce would've had more success on the Clippers than Dirk. I wouldn't have been surprised if Dirk looked like a bust during his time as a Clipper. I have zero faith in that culture.*
This helped a lot of us get through the pandemic 😅
I love the disrespect they have for Alston and don’t mention how he played a very key role for the 2009 magic team when Jameer Nelson went down with an injury and Alston was essentially their only point guard and helped them make the finals.
Players who took a leap with Lebron or had their best years with him
Chris Bosh
AD
Kyrie
JR Smith
Iman Shumpert
Matthew Dellavedova
Tristan Thompson
Rondo, Howard, AD, and Mcgee all clearly leveled up next to Lebron just 2 seasons ago
I think Bill's love of Jordan and Bird can force him to downplay Lebron sometimes. Lebron is clearly the greatest floor raiser in NBA history. He had one of the three greatest peaks in NBA history, with it being personal preference whether you want peak Lebron, Jordan or Shaq. Lebron has also had the greatest amount of longevity in NBA history. No one gives you more All-NBA caliber and MVP caliber seasons over the course of their career than Lebron
Celtics really wanted Nowitzki. but really, if you went back, LAC should have drafted Vince Carter.
Raef LaFrentz was a solid defender too.
Jesus Rusillo says well, I didn't bother saying that, but I'm glad you brought it up that is about on par with the idiocy of his statements. I am starved for good sports content and Simmons is about the best. But like so many of these podcasts, the guests make it almost impossible to listen.
I think people hype up Vince so much, just because of that dunk contest. Like he just wasn’t a winner, he wasn’t an incredible defender that could lock guys up. He wasn’t an amazing shooter that could kill you from mid range or from deep, though he had some good seasons shooting the 3. Every team he was on after Toronto, was never better than they were before he was there. NJ made 2 finals, and he didn’t get em back. Phoenix was a contender and had some good seasons and your hope is too bring in vince so Nash can rely on his, but he didn’t help when he was there he couldn’t get them back to contention, Orlando had been to the finals, and he didn’t help them, Dallas won the title and he didn’t help them, Memphis was a really good team, but he was playing like 15-20 minutes a game, and didn’t contribute because he was now old. Atlanta and Sacramento were terrible teams, so he was playing meaningless minutes putting up meaningless points. He just wasn’t a winner, he couldn’t will your team to a deep run. He was a flashy dunker. THATS IT.
Larry Hughes little brother got cancer and died, he was never the same again.
I think you are off your rocker if you want Lewis over Jamison. The argument of lewis is a reliable 3rd option while Jamison can't be counted on for the number 1....well neither can Lewis! Jamison is a much much better option for a 3rd option on a team than Lewis is. End of story. Grade them on the same level, not on 1 being the main option and the other is 3rd maybe 4th option.
You clearly edited something out as you three were discussing Lebron & his affect on his teammates. Boo on you Bill, since when are you scared? The Ringer is sold already. For that I hope Matt Harping's son plays for the Celts