Soto Zen vs Rinzai Zen
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
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Rinzai " When I eat I only eat, and when I sleep I only sleep"
Somebody said " But nothing special in that, everybody is doing it"
Rinzai " If everybody is doing it, everybody is a Buddha, everybody is enlightened then".
Good talk. I have been thinking about this much lately.
Brad, I was wondering if you had an opinion on Philip Kapleau's Three Pillars of Zen? The center I attend is under his lineage and I am curious of what you think. Great videos and podcasts. Keep up the good work.
Gotta love the sleeves.
Ziggy aced the koan
It's very simple actually. The funky unreasonably-long sleeves are part of the practice. Those evil Rinzai dudes have cheapened the practice by shortening the sleeves. :) I suggest you do a Sange Mon asap and go back to kosher Soto sleeves, Brad :P
"Moshotoku" tells me that someone has been hanging out with the Deshimaru crowd.
Interested in your thoughts on Nicheren Buddhism as well
I don't know much about Nichiren Buddhism. They tend to evangelize, which is unusual among Buddhists. I've even seen Nichiren Buddhists going door-to-door like Mormons (I don't know if this is common, but I've encountered it). I don't know their philosophy, though.
@@HardcoreZen from what I’ve read they’ve largely abandoned meditation (except for monks as an optional practice) in favor of chanting a single mantra repeatedly. Also have abandoned all other scriptures in favor of the Lotus Sutra. I know Whitney Houston is into it. Any way, interesting stuff. Love the channel.
"Go kei ... shu" sounds like 5 original schools of Zen in China.
One year later still no dokusan is still news to me
Brad, did you ever do the video with your Rinzai friend?
You look like a Sith Lord in your black robe.
how can I thank Buddha in Zen Buddhism? Is there an expression similar to "Thank God?"
I also find it interesting that rinzai tended to be upper class, while soto was more a peasant thing. It would be interesting to have a sociological research, to see if this is still reflected in modern day zen.
Specifically the Samurai practiced Rinzai, which explains the relatively militant nature of the practice (fast kinhin, fighting to get to practice discussion, the competitive aspects of practice) whereas the farmers and townsfolk practiced Soto, and the Soto temples were maintained the name registry up until the Meiji restoration.
Idk man you're making renzai sound really cool, not facing a wall, fun contemplative riddles, getting to go on mountain hikes? Why'd I ever want to study soto? Lol
And he doesn’t sound cool at all when he called Rinzai zen as the evil. Wise one shall never judge.
Now do Joko Beck Zen
I also practiced with a student of Joshu Sasaki. I find it hilarious that you called Rinzai the evil one
It's soooooo evil.
@@HardcoreZenhow can I thank Buddha in Zen Buddhism? Is there an expression similar to "Thank God?"
@@rafaelecattonar1506 You can certainly thank Buddha if you want to. But I don't know of any traditional expression similar to "thank Buddha." Dogen wrote an essay called Eihei Hotsuganmon in which he doesn't actually thank Buddha as such, but he acknowledges the help of the former masters and ancient enlightened people who came before. www.ancientdragon.org/eihei-koso-hotsuganmon/
@@HardcoreZen I wanna be Buddhist and I believe in the law of attraction, too. So, I thought I could be Buddhist and use the law of attraction to attract what I want. Suppose I want a good job. I thought I could write for example "I wanna be a Doctor" and thank Buddha for that. I've heard that in Heart Sutra there's an expression that says"Gate, gate, parasite, parasamgate: Bodhi Svaha!". Could I write it as a good way to fulfill my desire?
@@rafaelecattonar1506the law of attraction and buddhism do not mix. although there may be some truth to a vibratory field that has effects on manifestation, the goal of buddhism is not to get what you want. it is the letting go of these desires as we see that they are impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self/lack substance. to get what you want temporarily is only deceiving yourself because eventually you will lose that
But most Japanese are Jodo Shinshu which is kind of similar to Chinese Ch’an Buddhism since the Chinese like to blend Pure Land Buddhism with Ch’an or the precursor to Japanese Zen. The main chant in Pure Land is some variation on the Namu Amida Butsu typically saying the Sanskrit version or Amitabha. In the Chinese lineage temple I used to attend they most definitely did not meditate facing the outer walls.
How exactly would you be able to tell that a bunch of people who are sitting perfectly still are competitive with each other????
The competitive part is responding to koans...which become increasingly more difficult as one progresses. Its not for hippies.
@@Teller3448 that’s my point: how you respond to a koan is between you and the teacher and cannot be divined by other students in the zendo, so it should make zero difference in this respect which way they are facing
@Kentaro S I was a student of Daido Roshi at Zen Mountain Monastery for many years. He had both Rinzai and Soto transmissions, students faced the middle of the zendo in the first period and last of the day and the wall in between, but because there were always several rows of students most of them would be looking at someone else's back regardless. Either way the eyes were supposed to be at a spot before you on the floor, so again: it makes no difference what's beyond your visual field. And it is my experience that your running speed is also not affected by it :) Students were told to jump up and run to the line when the signal was given, and the only people not running are the ones who already had dokusan that day. Again: Your level of competitiveness has absolutely nothing to do with which way you are facing.
@@4kassis Agreed. My Sangha doesn't have a wall and we face center but the gaze for me is pretty much angled toward the ground. No running though :-)
@@Riddlemewalker much safer this way :) I've seen people slip and trip over stuff on the floor...
Probably the 5 schools or houses of chinese chan is meant by gokei..etc..
Don't forget Shasta Abbey (Soto). 🙏
Ziggy just thinks you're weird, Brad. ;-)
Just a correction on the 無 (mu) kōan: this character is pronounced as "wú" only in modern Mandarin Chinese, but was pronounced more like "mio" (ɱyo31 in Glossika universal pinyin) in the days of Zhaozhou (Jōshu), which is where the pronunciation in modern Japanese comes from. The "m" is still visible in other Chinese languages like Cantonese, where it's "mou4". Therefore, there's no pun.
Really? Huh...
Maezumi Roshi studied both Soto and Rinzai so the White Plum Sangha splits the difference (at least where I practiced). Meditators would face the wall but face each other during the last period. Kinhin started slow then the time keeper would hit the clappers and we would walk fast. A lot of the students did koan study. I didn't.
I learned more about lineage of the two than I did the the differences... but I learned something 😁
Master Zhaozhou (Joshu) did not actually say "Wú!", because that is the modern Mandarin Chinese pronunciation of it, which only has existed for about ~500 years or so. Master Zhaozhou spoke Middle Chinese, where the sounds of words were quite different. He would have much more likely exclamated "Mju!".
These texts are literary products, no direct speech/sound-protocols; they are some Báihuà, I would say. So the writers still might have intended the pun.
@@gunterappoldt3037 The Wumenguan was written in the 13th century, well before the character 無 had morphed into its modern pronunciation of "wú" in modern Mandarin, so I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here. Could you please elaborate?
@@alexandrevonmayenburg9664 We may assume that the answer "无" had -- intentionally or unintentionaly -- some onomatopoietic value to it. And more so, as Chán/Zen-talk likes to play with different levels of meaning (in the broader sense). The "无" -- pronounced differently according to the (at least 350 odd) regional dialects -- would, furthermore, somehow functionally compare with the so called "seed-sounds" (Ger.: "Keimsilben") of Indian "holy semantics", like, e.g., the famous "primordial" sound of "Om" -- which also reminds one of the "divine word" in the Biblical Genesis, and so forth (as "word-magics" have been, seemingly, a part of the human condition for a really long, long time). This all, in principle, opens up a huge space for interpretations along all kinds of "body-mind circuits", so to speak, which are part of the human "mechanics" of meaning-production.
9:10 First, you say: at Rinzai style they use koans, and later then you say: they use koans at both schools", which is confusing. In fact, at "clasical Soto" they dont use Koans.
In classical Soto they don't meditate on koans, but they certainly use them. Koans appear throughout Dogen's writings. He explains them, comments on them, and references them in other ways. But it's true that he does not recommend his students to concentrate on koans during zazen as a means of having a kensho or satori experience.
@@HardcoreZen sure, alright, what Soto students should concentrate on ?
@@einarjungmann273 Dogen's Fukanzazengi says that what he teaches is "not Zen concentration." So concentration is not important. I did a video called something like What to Think About During Zazen.
It's not competitiveness: it's esprit des corps.
you dont choose zen, zen chooses YOU!
Distinctions are a distraction. Practicing in authentic form is real practice.
1 2 3 infinity equals zero no zen for me i killed buddha today is 6 monkey i love you brad 😎.
The biggest problem with Soto is that it has many teachers but very few are accomplished. Teachers who have reached kensho or satori are almost nonexistent.
How did you come to that conclusion?
@@NicholasKlacsanzkyICM well it's kind of obvious. You can see that everywhere
@@enterthevoidIi please elaborate.
@@enterthevoidIii am genuinely interested, but this is a very vague answer 😂
Very entertaining. With those sleeves spread you look like a bat! LOL You said Rinzai is the evil school, jokingly I hope. Do you think Rinzai teachers and students are bats, maybe vampire bats? Actually, bats of all kinds are a very important part of the Earth's ecosystem. They eat lots of mosquitos for one, and their guano fertilizes plants in the deserts.
On your recommendation a couple of months ago(?) I've been watching Haubner's video channel. Here's a link to an hour and 40 minute interview with him from 12/17 that's on my "to watch" list, meaning it's one of 230 tabs open in my browser. th-cam.com/video/1ZpvSYgrAUc/w-d-xo.html
I don't know why, but TH-cam won't let me edit my comments. I wanted to add that bats of all kinds are a very important part of the Earth's ecosystem. They eat lots of mosquitos and their guano fertilizes plants in the desert. Also, do you think Rinzai teachers and students are vampire bats? I love bats!
@@zenjazzplayer Some teachers are sucking the blood out of Buddhism...yes!
I have found Soto to be discouraging and dismissive....my Soto friend said unless I go to sangha and practice zazen, I am wasting my time.....also I disagree with how the Soto fb group represented you
How did the Soto FB represent me? They probably don't like me much. Anyhow, I'm sorry you found that group dismissive. Then again, Soto style Zen is all about practicing zazen and does regard sangha as important. SO maybe I get it. Personally, I'm not that social myself, so sangha hasn't been as important to me. Still, I do think it's good to practice with others.
Yes.... lets.... uhhhhh make a totally duelistic assertion categorizing two forms of Zen Buddhism as good and evil? Ya lost me there.
That’s what is called a joke