I don't understand. Insists on using Midi bass because he prefers the sound... then EQ's the hell out of it. Pretty sure the original bass track would have worked perfectly. What's the point in having a great tone, great player, great performance if you're going to replace it? Seems like a classic case of adding more work because of being stuck in your ways.
What I understand out of this tutorial is MMF’s using all this production staff into the mix to having an original and a very different sound through the metal core scene - making huge changes on what everybody out there is making with bass tones so in my opinion I thing this is even more important than the midi bass as well or what it represents into the mix - which is amazing in terms of keep out the band concept so in my opinion that’s even more important that just make the bass or guitars etc sounds “good” or “bad” at the end the purpose of mixing isn’t just make it sound great
I couldn’t help but chime in here as much as it feels "off" to poke at someone’s work flow openly. However, my issue here is the fact that everything within metal is becoming so standardised that the variation and nuance between bands is diminishing. You’ve got a more than great Bass DI to work from there and most would be grateful to be able to work with such a well rounded recording. As an artist, that individual has invested time and practise into their playing, it’s our job to bring the best out in that, not to replace it entirely. I appreciate the extra work that has to be done in metal - sample reinforcement, editing, so on and so fourth, but we’re now moving into an area where the process lends itself to EDM production. We’re working with bands here, real people - and that must hold high above all else. I’d be mortified if I’d played that bass line to hear "this isn’t a real bass" after the fact. The player deserves to have their contribution respected and I’m sure with your clear knowledge you could have certainly accommodated that, but chose not to. You clearly know your stuff and the insight is appreciated - but the context? I struggle with. So yes, it is the perfect metalcore bass and that’s the problem.
While I partly agree with your statement, you gotta keep in mind that this is not something that some producers just decided on doing at some point. This standardized, almost EDM like production, as you said, is what a lot of listeners are drawn towards, especially those who have no musical background themselves. Not trying to say that you can only understand "real" music if you're a musician yourself, but the average listener doesn't care if a bass is real or not, they're just appreciating the sound of a very polished production, and the fact that a lot of it sounds standardised probably helps them to associate it with something they've already heard on one of the hundred bands that utilize the same production methods. It's just what fans of this specific kind of modern metalcore sound expect, and that's what producers have to deliver. It's not the other way around unfortunately, cause that way doesn't work for everyone.
I take your point - but that then begs the question, is there any need for a band at all? One of the viewers during this videos stream even questions if they needed to track bass in the first place - and rightly so! Ultimately the DI bass track sounded great and Im certain this guy could have worked it a treat while staying true to the musicianship of the guy playing it. I worry that given this is a teaching and learning platform, it sets a precedent for up-coming musicians to not only question their musicianship, but also their need to be any good at what they do if it’s going to be just replaced. That then begs the question (for me at least) what happens when it comes to live performance? By the sounds of it, the bass player is/was unaware of this happening! And I think that’s kinda sad really.
@@CAlexis8564 im pretty sure the bass player knows he's re amping his bass, it was tongue in cheek joke obviously (they're in the same band and Kellen has been producing their music for years) this precedence youre talking of has been around for awhile, listen to anything Cameron Mizell has done, his guitars sound almost sampled, same with bass and drums. The whole live thing youre talking about back tracks, the band is still playing their instruments, I see no problem with bands like spirit box, erra, dayseeker, bad omens etc using tech at their disposal to perform a show.
Re-amping and using a pre-recorded midi bass are two vastly different things, I’ve no qualms with re-amping, but if they’re capable of playing these things live, why break it down to this extent in the mix? Particularly when it is well played. If the sound ain’t right, why not re-track it? I see no issues in using tech either to perform live, that’s the norm and has been for years - but their live show will still largely rely on their musicianship, no? And that’s my point, there’s too much emphasis on the production these days and it’s glossing over some really talented players.
@@CAlexis8564 I can understand what you're trying to say but this is a production, it needs to sound the best it possibly can so any listener could agree that the song sounds great. I don't think this emphasis and focus of production hinders the musical side but actually emphasizes it. It allows more enjoyable listening to a song with better production.
Sounsd awesome but the more I mix bass the less I want to process it. I've even given up on splitting the signal and I've come up with a very simple chain that sounds fantastic yet gritty.
"This is not the real bass, I don't know if the bass player knows this" And that right there is why people think you can turn a bad performance into an amazing mix. Suddenly there are all these tones and qualities that the original does not have...
I (selfishly) wanted something extra that the pure real bass just wasn't quite giving me, even with my multiscale Kiesel bass, which I was why I went this route! There was nothing wrong with his performance, check out the DI's, he's an amazing bassist. Sometimes doing weird stuff gets you the sound you want.
@@kellenmcgregor7476 Very cool video. I’ve thought about using the high end of a real bass track to add a bit of humanity to midi bass tracks but never actually tried it. Did you write the midi bass parts by hand or did you somehow convert the audio to midi?
@@kellenmcgregor7476 hell yeah, I've found myself doing almost exactly what you've done here to get a more consistent low end. Essentially just processing the normal DI/amp bass to get 80% of the way there, then cutting all the lows out of that and replacing them with a channel that has a low passed Eurobass. It gives me better results than just compressing the low end!
Hopefully the @EverTune8 bass bridge will come out soon and hopefully we won't have a tuning nightmares anymore and save you some time programming bass.
Work recently with 8 strings F tuning, found myself using Djibass or Eurobass to get that low F cause the bass plays at unisound F with the guitar.I needed an extra low F and let s be honest if you don t have a dingwall type 37 40' inch bass guitar it sounds like shit. Mixing the 2 together worked like a charm
Respectfully, this could've been done with less than half the steps and plugin instances and sounded the same. It's cool to see his process, but it's unnecessarily complicated.
This is a nightmare though. I mean - what he is doing is so cool but in terms of where all that concept comes from? And how I really gonna use that info for my own mixings it’s really confusing couse I really want to do music productions understanding what I’m really doing with the sounds and not just copying what a “pro” mixer use to do with it. If that makes sense
i’ve been producing for around 8 years and while i could understand most of what he was saying/doing, it left more questions than answers at some points lol this is a very complex method but bass is usually a very simple thing to do so it’s cool to see something so innovative in this genre
I think the same ! Modern producer use 10 différents EQ with 10 cuts and boosts on each. That's to much... But remember guys, the source need to be great ! Just to butcher it afterward... Just look the extrem lows on this vidéo. Cut it. Then boost it. Then cut it again. Then use a dynamic compressor. Then cut again. And whoooops, extrem lows disapear. So... let's add a sub track !
@@Korneo54 Big metal producers are wizards man. It sounds amazing but there's so much fuckery behind it. It's like the mixing olympics. I was happy to finally achieve that Andy Wallace/CLA vibe on my mixes with a single channel strip and reverb after so many years trying to simplify my workflow but now it sounds dated in comparison 😞
I'm not a fan of the programmed bass. Just get better takes and make sure he doesn't play too hard so you don't have to retune it. Metallica recorded the black album in standard E on a Pbass/SVT, and still one of the heaviest bass tones ever, so don't pussy out and program shit.
Fake drums, fake amps, fake bass. It’s basically electronic music sold as metal. If I want to listen to electronic music, I listen to electronic music. Not to mention every new band uses the same 3 plugins
Kellen does most of the best metalcore productions of the year with RIM and other bands projects 🤘🔥
I don't understand. Insists on using Midi bass because he prefers the sound... then EQ's the hell out of it. Pretty sure the original bass track would have worked perfectly. What's the point in having a great tone, great player, great performance if you're going to replace it? Seems like a classic case of adding more work because of being stuck in your ways.
I just wondering the same thing too
What I understand out of this tutorial is MMF’s using all this production staff into the mix to having an original and a very different sound through the metal core scene - making huge changes on what everybody out there is making with bass tones so in my opinion I thing this is even more important than the midi bass as well or what it represents into the mix - which is amazing in terms of keep out the band concept so in my opinion that’s even more important that just make the bass or guitars etc sounds “good” or “bad” at the end the purpose of mixing isn’t just make it sound great
This is why no one cares about rock and metal anymore. All the danger is gone man.
I couldn’t help but chime in here as much as it feels "off" to poke at someone’s work flow openly. However, my issue here is the fact that everything within metal is becoming so standardised that the variation and nuance between bands is diminishing. You’ve got a more than great Bass DI to work from there and most would be grateful to be able to work with such a well rounded recording. As an artist, that individual has invested time and practise into their playing, it’s our job to bring the best out in that, not to replace it entirely. I appreciate the extra work that has to be done in metal - sample reinforcement, editing, so on and so fourth, but we’re now moving into an area where the process lends itself to EDM production. We’re working with bands here, real people - and that must hold high above all else.
I’d be mortified if I’d played that bass line to hear "this isn’t a real bass" after the fact. The player deserves to have their contribution respected and I’m sure with your clear knowledge you could have certainly accommodated that, but chose not to. You clearly know your stuff and the insight is appreciated - but the context? I struggle with. So yes, it is the perfect metalcore bass and that’s the problem.
While I partly agree with your statement, you gotta keep in mind that this is not something that some producers just decided on doing at some point. This standardized, almost EDM like production, as you said, is what a lot of listeners are drawn towards, especially those who have no musical background themselves. Not trying to say that you can only understand "real" music if you're a musician yourself, but the average listener doesn't care if a bass is real or not, they're just appreciating the sound of a very polished production, and the fact that a lot of it sounds standardised probably helps them to associate it with something they've already heard on one of the hundred bands that utilize the same production methods. It's just what fans of this specific kind of modern metalcore sound expect, and that's what producers have to deliver. It's not the other way around unfortunately, cause that way doesn't work for everyone.
I take your point - but that then begs the question, is there any need for a band at all? One of the viewers during this videos stream even questions if they needed to track bass in the first place - and rightly so! Ultimately the DI bass track sounded great and Im certain this guy could have worked it a treat while staying true to the musicianship of the guy playing it. I worry that given this is a teaching and learning platform, it sets a precedent for up-coming musicians to not only question their musicianship, but also their need to be any good at what they do if it’s going to be just replaced. That then begs the question (for me at least) what happens when it comes to live performance? By the sounds of it, the bass player is/was unaware of this happening! And I think that’s kinda sad really.
@@CAlexis8564 im pretty sure the bass player knows he's re amping his bass, it was tongue in cheek joke obviously (they're in the same band and Kellen has been producing their music for years) this precedence youre talking of has been around for awhile, listen to anything Cameron Mizell has done, his guitars sound almost sampled, same with bass and drums. The whole live thing youre talking about back tracks, the band is still playing their instruments, I see no problem with bands like spirit box, erra, dayseeker, bad omens etc using tech at their disposal to perform a show.
Re-amping and using a pre-recorded midi bass are two vastly different things, I’ve no qualms with re-amping, but if they’re capable of playing these things live, why break it down to this extent in the mix? Particularly when it is well played. If the sound ain’t right, why not re-track it? I see no issues in using tech either to perform live, that’s the norm and has been for years - but their live show will still largely rely on their musicianship, no? And that’s my point, there’s too much emphasis on the production these days and it’s glossing over some really talented players.
@@CAlexis8564 I can understand what you're trying to say but this is a production, it needs to sound the best it possibly can so any listener could agree that the song sounds great. I don't think this emphasis and focus of production hinders the musical side but actually emphasizes it. It allows more enjoyable listening to a song with better production.
14:30 - I think that is because of the phase shift that occurs with non linear EQ. Try to shift the high pass to Linear and litsen for it.
Anything greater than the 6 dB per octave cut will introduce phase.
Kellen is doing some really gnarly stuff. I’d love to hear what he does for a band like Trivium.
Sounsd awesome but the more I mix bass the less I want to process it. I've even given up on splitting the signal and I've come up with a very simple chain that sounds fantastic yet gritty.
Can you give a very brief rundown of how you do this? Do you cut out any frequencies?
@@robjohnson5829 I will do a video on this if you want to!
I do this sometimes with my live guitars and blending in with a programmed guitar and synths layered in stacks to have a huge thick tone.
Thanks for the video, great stuff!
"This is not the real bass, I don't know if the bass player knows this"
And that right there is why people think you can turn a bad performance into an amazing mix. Suddenly there are all these tones and qualities that the original does not have...
no real drums either, not even the cymbals as I could hear.
I (selfishly) wanted something extra that the pure real bass just wasn't quite giving me, even with my multiscale Kiesel bass, which I was why I went this route! There was nothing wrong with his performance, check out the DI's, he's an amazing bassist. Sometimes doing weird stuff gets you the sound you want.
@@kellenmcgregor7476 Very cool video. I’ve thought about using the high end of a real bass track to add a bit of humanity to midi bass tracks but never actually tried it. Did you write the midi bass parts by hand or did you somehow convert the audio to midi?
MIDI bass sounds amazing, as much as it hurts me to admit.
@@kellenmcgregor7476 hell yeah, I've found myself doing almost exactly what you've done here to get a more consistent low end. Essentially just processing the normal DI/amp bass to get 80% of the way there, then cutting all the lows out of that and replacing them with a channel that has a low passed Eurobass. It gives me better results than just compressing the low end!
great
so fkg great stuff
That's an awesome tone. I wish I could find/build a helix patch that did all that, just like that.
Hopefully the @EverTune8 bass bridge will come out soon and hopefully we won't have a tuning nightmares anymore and save you some time programming bass.
love this channel!
Off topic but what headphones are those?
Audio Technica M50
Work recently with 8 strings F tuning, found myself using Djibass or Eurobass to get that low F cause the bass plays at unisound F with the guitar.I needed an extra low F and let s be honest if you don t have a dingwall type 37 40' inch bass guitar it sounds like shit. Mixing the 2 together worked like a charm
So how do you reproduce this live?
Just play the parts lol... You heard the way he plays, he sounds like a robot anyway!
@@Ledjent what do you mean? just play the entire bass part as a backing track?
Respectfully, this could've been done with less than half the steps and plugin instances and sounded the same. It's cool to see his process, but it's unnecessarily complicated.
This is a nightmare though. I mean - what he is doing is so cool but in terms of where all that concept comes from? And how I really gonna use that info for my own mixings it’s really confusing couse I really want to do music productions understanding what I’m really doing with the sounds and not just copying what a “pro” mixer use to do with it. If that makes sense
I hate the Daws crap..I get killing bass with any preamp pedal and an audio interface.
just have the bassist punch in every bar.. it will sound just as “robotic” aka TIGHT rhythm
Such a complex process makes me feel like the shittiest mixer ever. This is too advanced even after +5 years mixing.
Dude for real. I couldn’t even fathom this by myself
i’ve been producing for around 8 years and while i could understand most of what he was saying/doing, it left more questions than answers at some points lol this is a very complex method but bass is usually a very simple thing to do so it’s cool to see something so innovative in this genre
and it could have been done SO much easier. don't feel like you need to overcomplicate things like this.
I think the same ! Modern producer use 10 différents EQ with 10 cuts and boosts on each. That's to much... But remember guys, the source need to be great ! Just to butcher it afterward...
Just look the extrem lows on this vidéo. Cut it. Then boost it. Then cut it again. Then use a dynamic compressor. Then cut again. And whoooops, extrem lows disapear. So... let's add a sub track !
@@Korneo54 Big metal producers are wizards man. It sounds amazing but there's so much fuckery behind it.
It's like the mixing olympics.
I was happy to finally achieve that Andy Wallace/CLA vibe on my mixes with a single channel strip and reverb after so many years trying to simplify my workflow but now it sounds dated in comparison 😞
lol
I'm not a fan of the programmed bass. Just get better takes and make sure he doesn't play too hard so you don't have to retune it. Metallica recorded the black album in standard E on a Pbass/SVT, and still one of the heaviest bass tones ever, so don't pussy out and program shit.
Wah wah wah, it's not the 80s/90s anymore get over it.
lmao am ded
@@Savitzen lmao what a boomer
Not a PBass but a Spector NS-2 :D
So THAT'S how you suck the life out of a performance and make it generic and soulless. Got it!
If that's what it takes to drop one of the best metalcore albums of the year....lol.
This is exactly what’s wrong with today’s “metal” production.
elaborate
Fake drums, fake amps, fake bass. It’s basically electronic music sold as metal. If I want to listen to electronic music, I listen to electronic music. Not to mention every new band uses the same 3 plugins
There is no debate about real bass vs midi bass, and real bass sounds way better, even if it is cheap.