@@lindadelorme4259 Garrosh : _* drops a Bomb on Theramore *_ -> People demanded his Execution during his Trial. Sylvanas burns down a fxxxing *WORLD TREE* -> gets "excused" into a Mix between Banishment/Incarceration and Atonement by getting the Souls of all Nightelves out of the Maw. To bad Garrosh was a male Orc. He had no Elfussy that made People simp for him really really hard.
@@puffyeato well, unfortunately we got the fact that shadowlands is canon. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, or if players love it or hate it. Blizzard wrote that shit and now they got to own it ;)
For me the main reason I disliked them pushing Calia Menethil towards the Forsaken is because she has literally not been forsaken by anybody. No one turned their back on her after her undeath if anything everyone has been kind and understanding towards her. I have no issues with her character existing, if anything I liked the idea of her coming back into the story but she is not a Forsaken.
Isn't most of forsaken originally citizen of lordaeron, as the rightful heir to me it's rather natural she claimed her throne, and the council to represent other forsaken from other various origin that follow sylvannas after lich king power wanes during frozen throne campaign. And as a fan of the banshe queen I love the fact Syl has ascended to thrall/jaina/malfurion/tyrande/illidan's level character development to not be bound by her people to roam "freely" and hopefully returns when needed, and then Anduin is next, even though I'm not playing and don't plan to play I'm excited to see how the story goes, been playing since warcraft 2 loving every bit of warcraft lore although there's some sketchy part in the middle it's been great so far!
That is why there is a quest line about her not feeling accepted. She isn't forsaken but she is the Princess of Lordaeron. And sees the forsaken for who they were and not the monsters they are perceived to be. She was then killed for trying to help. She doesn't even truly see herself as forsaken for multiple reasons but still tries to help. The writing and presentation is bad but I don't think the general idea of the character is bad.
I mean she is literal heir of Lordaeron throne and the original Forsaken are citizens of Lordaeron so it makes sense for Blizzard to push Caelia to Forsaken.
A Calia that loses the protections of the light and feels the suffering the light causes her people, it would give her another interesting feature to connect her to her people
I still believe that they cocked up Calia's introduction, and then shoved her into the leader role to force players to love her instead of Sylvanas. Sylvanas is an OG and will never be replaced, no matter how badly they write her out of Warcraft. Calia has ZERO history with the forsaken's struggle.
agreed her and garrosh overall had decent stories at worse during cata but being the perfect examples of certain types of extremes that could have been ran with. Sylvanas and Garrosh were both right and wrong back then. Though they butchered her potential so badly, especially with everything leading up to shadowlands. I could still defend BFA sylvanas because well it was just her bulwark mindset taken to the next level in the worse way but something that could be worked up as in desperation results in people taking extreme measures
That may be true, but for how long do you want the same ass characters from 20 years ago in the leading role? I think its good that modern wow tries to be their own thing. I personally dont like calia but my headcanon is that the forsaken feel somewhat nostalgic seeing a menethil with good intentions.
@@DomwynI don’t think people are really against differences and changes. It is all a matter of how it is done. Sylvanas stepping aside, becoming a player of Maldraxxus, an advisor, going off on a journey to rediscover herself, etc. All these possibilities tossed aside for what we got were always the issue. There is no denying objectively the story leading up to Shadowlands and Shadowlands itself was bad. So bad it hurt the franchise as a whole and will always leave a negative feeling when it is brought up. Time will temper it but it cannot change it. Sadly this will always cause Calia’s story issues. Especially when she was a book character that came from nowhere into WoW. As for all those players that is what she is.
If they wanted us to like her they shouldn’t have made her commit treason…Same with Lilian Voss. The Forsakens most important leaders are treasonous rats and they’re going to force them on us over and over.
@@Domwyn execution is the problem remember anduin who is respected as a leader we watched him grow up and become the proper leader of the alliance after his father died. Collin becoming the leader of the horde as well was a change people enjoyed and respected the change was never the problem it was the wasted potentials and opportunities
Part of me still want Sylvanas and Nathanos to come back during Midnight to help save Silvermoon with the Forsaken. I just not a fan of Calia being pushed so much since it doesn’t feel earned or truly apart of the Forsaken.
I wouldn't say she's not truly part of the Forsaken, but her being shoe horned in to be Sylvanas's replacement and then pulling back from that to form a new desolate council wasn't great writing.
I think it‘s fitting. She‘s been an established character for a long time, even if not part of the main story. I like the idea of Arthas Menethil being the one to cause the suffering of the Forsaken and another Menethil guiding them back on the right track, redeeming the family name in the process. Also she is more fitting for the more peaceful society, that the Forsaken have become now, compared to Sylvanas, who was a soldier, leading a militant empire. She is the kind of leader that the Forsaken need. Especially in combination with Lilian Voss
@@jase_allen It was bad writing at best, it was hack writing you'd find put together by a couple of middle schoolers for a school project level of bad. Not only did it still feel like she was the default of this council the council and who was on it and why seemed very flimsy at best. It wasn't that these people were pushing to join the council and have a say against Calia no they were ready to bow to her and they had to be asked to join the council
I have always liked the idea of undead paladins. It was inspired by dark souls, the first one, where you're an undead with an unbreakable will (much like in WoW), who continues on no matter what. I like the idea of knights with a holy mission who don't give up their oaths for something so intranscendent like undeath or eternal damnation. Just fueled by their will, they cast light spells that hurt them each and every time they do, but they carry on.
The idea of Light Risen Forsaken has always irked me. As a lifelong Forsaken player and a Sylvanas loyalist, they really lost me here. They've had opportunities to use void magic, ACTUAL necromancy from Maldraxxus....but they chose to use the light. Cool. I've been playing this game for almost 20 years now and I REALLY question some of the directions they've gone in. It seems they really lost the plot after Legion (which was fantastic)
Okay serious question: a lot of people said that that “b*tch” line is not important so removing the insult is ok and people need to stop crying, yet this is one of the most important moments for Forsaken history and that line brings a lot of spice to that moment. Why did Blizz remove it?
Blizzard has added in their terms of service that no swearing is allowed which is why people are getting wiped off of overwatch currently. So, they removed it to not look hypocritical. This had been before the new bans- and a long time ago too. I think it was either in Mists or Dreanor it got removed.
@@tuwak4792 I thought they removed it in BfA, because supposedly some dev's kid saw it and wanted it removed. Many people didn't believe it, instead spreading theories that Danuser had the line removed because of his supposed Sylvanas simping. Honestly, I believe neither. Your explanation makes more sense.
Still hate all the light undead nonsense honestly, feels like they only wanted to make Calia super special and rewrote how necromancy worked just for that.
How did they rewrite necromancy? Druids rez with life magic, priests rez with holy magic, shamans rez with spirit or whatever.. lots of magical schools can give life, its just canonically rare
@@primal4887There is a difference between returning someone to a living state and undeath though. The living can go on to have kids, need to eat, etc. The undeath has flesh missing and that sorta thing. This is a change to classic necromancy as people know it.
@@primal4887always imagined that when you die in wow you don't actually die, but are in a dying state, and resurrection is more like bringing you back to "living" kinda like defibrillation. Notice how you can't ressurect actual skeletons. So the only way to rise the dead, was through some unholy death magic, hence death magic necromancy. Other schools of magic mentioned, like the drust, feel like using the corpse as an ingredient to turn it into a new living thing, rather than bringing back the old person as a undead
My main since the jump has been undead rogue(yes I'm a scumbag and proud) and if forsaken become light beings I will forever walk away from the race. I'm sorry but it's the opposite of what we were all going for with class fantasy. We want spooky and dark.
The problem is no one cares about Calia. They’ve done nothing with her besides say “oh woops she’s alive guess she should be leader of undead cause Arthas” even though that just makes no sense at the time bfa and shadowlands are happening because we still have sylvannas and we all care way more about her as the leader of the forsaken. I don’t think it’s fair to just jump into calia head first yet. She needs way more time for people to care
@@GazingTrandoshan I mean sure that’s what the narrative explicitly says but do we feel that way? I feel like calia is the one that still gets fronted as in charge of them all. It feels like the game of thrones ending. Yeah sure “you broke the wheel” but did you really? Brann is an apparently omnipotent god who can see the future. Feels like you just changed tyrants. But it’s worse because I don’t think most of us care about the characters on the council as much as we care about sylvannas. I think calia can be better but it feels rushed. Because it is rushed because of what we all know was happening behind the scenes with afrasiabi
Ok you sort of convinced me, exploring the idea of essentially "the light doesn't want to let its "toys" go" sounds like an interesting idea. Non-light necromancy brought you back against your will, but if no one was around to "raise" you then you'd be able to stay dead, while the practitioners of the light might be so devoted that the light is like "nah you're not done yet, get back out there" (think sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy). You want to die but the light won't let you against your will because the light wants to have "more fun" basically.
The warcraft 3 story of the foraaken was so dope... hate what they did to it in the last few wow expansions... undead of the light is like the dumbest shit ever..
I miss Cataclysm Sylvanas, before she went full genocidal maniac. I'm sorry but I consider Calia's Undead existence to be Lore breaking and nightmarish even by Undead standards, remember the Light is supposed to make the Undead's senses return, she must be living an horrific existence. I still dislike the "Necromancy can be done by any Force", I feel like it kinda erases the uniqueness of them being different Forces if they all can do the same thing.
The way they built her motivation then was dumb and lazy though. It contradicts her previous actions. I mean, holding eternal damnation over her head as a way to prevent her suicide makes sense, but the way she understands it does not.
Would be cool to be able to unlock Lightforged forsaken customisation for Undead. Or another race.. Even though I think many of the unlockable races could just be customisation options for existing ones. Looking at you LF Draenei, HM Tauren and Mechagnomes mainly.
Will they give us undead Necromancer Shaman soon? Instead of elementals lorewise they would have some skeletons and avominations and instead of the Elements they would call innthe forced of decay and try to soothe them for healing and command them to have Minions or empower themselves and their weapons. Similar to the kultiran druids but more undead in a way.
I cant stand Calia. Shes never been forsaken from anything. Quite the contrary, she has been welcomed everywhere she goes. She was welcomed into the alliance, she was for some reason welcomed into the horde... Greymame is mad? Oh, calia is here. You like her right Genn? Yeah so now there can be peace between the worgen and foresaken. Because you like Calia. Everyone likes her... And thats why i hate her. She has nothing to do with the faction she is apparently shoehorned into leading
They really missed a good chance to have Greymane go psycho for revenge and be a bad guy. Instead we got whatever you want to call the lead up shadowlands and shadowlands itself.
Here's an idea: Have Calia recruit the Arathi light-fused undead, have them form their own separate faction in the Forsaken under Calia's banner, and then have Calia get well and truly brainwashed by the light, go full Yrel on the Undercity, only for a familiar arrow to come zipping through, pinning her to the wall. Perfect chance for Sylvanus's return into the story, to save the Forsaken from cringe, retake her throne, with an attitude of pre-Cata Sylvanus, just less genocidal maniac. Honestly, playerbase would probably be happy with that, as in a return of a beloved character with the right attitude, and the removal of Calia, all in one fell swoop.
Yeah. The Forsaken can use the Light, its just painful for them to do so. Plus, Forsaken's lack of use of the Light wasn't a physical limitation but a mental/spiritual one, one that's suppose to of been bridged by this point.
Yeah, seems it's just how most of WoWs community/fan base is. Instant to hate or try to dismiss an idea before even giving it time to settle and really see what Blizz is doing with it. Oh well, I'm open minded and excited to see what the crew and Chris Metzin cook up with all this.
Calia will befriend the Light infused undead, get them to join the Forsaken creating her "own" group of people within the Forsaken. Calia will befriend Turalyon overtime. He will look past the fact that she is Undead because she was brought back by The Light. She will secure another "friend" within the Alliance. Turalyon will see her as apart of a plan for the Light, to create an army of Light on Azeroth & a Crown of Light for an empty throne.
Funny how the supposed leader of the undead has more friends among the Alliance leaders than the horde leaders....... what a great character that truely makes sense to be a leader of the undead...
I was guarded with Calia at first, but I don't mind her anymore now. I like how she wants to help her people (now the Forsaken) regardless of their fate. I think they did her a disservice by TELLING US all of the hardship she apparently went through off-screen (specifically WC3 events up until Legion), as opposed to showing us. It makes it hard for us, as players, to suddenly get ANOTHER character that we're being told is so important and impactful...meanwhile they've just showed up after missing so much. It's sad because she HAS been through a lot, and she carries a huge burden considering her family's legacy. I feel her being filled with a deep shame and doubt now is very realistic. I'm hoping they continue her story and give her a little more grace.
thats the BIGGEST issue with more modern warcraft for a while they tell you everything off screen and then act surprise that people didnt like the story overall
I wish they had done a "the truth can't come out, they can never know" with Sylvannas & the forsaken. Like in the Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, they have to keep the illusion that Harvey Dent was good. I wish they had done that with Sylvannas. Like she betrays everyone for power & dies but because the forsaken love her so much, they cant let it get out or the horde's control on lordaeron and the forsaken will collapses. Her story is wrapped up nicely and its true to her character and the forsaken can evolve with the rest of WoW however way blizz wants.
For me I think they are on their Spawn arc if you would. In the heritage armour quest they remembered their Lordaeron roots.They will find a balance in raising the dead either light or darkness.
I wonder how much they regret Shadowlands now for how much lore needed to be revised and will continue to be revised and contrived so the story can make sense. Theres no way they planned even half of SL before BFAs end.
Yet had the guts to say the Jailor was planed allready during the development of wc3... Even before they messed up with cronicles not being canon and the old god retcon...
@Th3BadThing But the story doesn't make sense... I still don't know what they are trying to say happened in DF, SL, or BFA... and I played every quest and every raid and every dungeon and every campaign of all three expansions. I read them all, I listened to them all... and they don't make sense.
I think this is a reason to add undead to the Alliance. Light undead will join the Alliance under the leadership of Calia. The undead will remain in the Horde. I hope I'm wrong.
I started as an undead in vanilla and mained it till my end during shadowlands. I've thought so many times about the role of the original forsaken and I really did identify with my character for so long. After seeing Arthas defeated, I missed a real motivation to move on from my character's perspective. Raising new forces into undeath didn't seem correct and was only acceptable for me so that we could stick it up their a**** to our former shitty neighbors in Gilneas who just kept hiding behind the wall while we were dying outside, slaughtered by the scourge or infected by the plague directly. After all, I think the main motivation my retired character would have is to chill in the lands of Lordaeron, may reconnect with some old friends or family, dead or alive, and go on an adventure from time to time. Maybe parts of the land recover, maybe there's a way that I don't have change my body parts every now and then, but in the end the story is written for the (former) people of Lordaeron as which may character still identifies the most. Don't get me wrong, dying night elf screams are still music in my ears.
question, what keeps undead alive? has there been a explanation on what keep them from decay into dust? with the lichking and others I understand that there is a power that control them and give them their power. but after all that gone, what hapend, is the shadowland providing the sustain they need? what if the forsaken turn into mindless undead after their mind decay?
I remember back in classic that forsaken were actually falling apart and they needed to keep "repairing" themselves with different body parts, but who knows now after all the retcons.
Themselves. They are the ritual vessel, the end result of necromancy. Unless someone bothers to cut them down, and for good, they'll stay animated. Difference with the Forsaken is that the Lich King could no longer keep control over them and they took advantage of his weakness, allowing their minds to come back as their own. Without someone to control the undead, they simply begin to go rampant, which is exactly what happened in Northrend while we were off in the Shadowlands. Its why Bolvar was originally suppose to take over as custodian of Ice Crown so that the remaining, aimless undead couldn't go harassing the townsfolk.
The Forsaken do still decay. This is one of the reasons that Sylvanas had Nathanos 'soul' transferred into his cousin's body. Because his decaying body was falling apart and she needed him to be stronger when the Legion invaded. This made his body more like hers that it wouldn't decay anymore because of the Valkyr ritual that was used.
@@elweese soo you are saying that the undead biggest problem isnt that they cant repoduce but that with time they will just decompose? are they gonna be undead skelletons or they will just die.
So calia travelled all the way to meet the margrave to be told what she could of figured out herself if she had a slither of personality and assertiveness. Shadowlands was awful lol.
Undead created using the Light will never not be a very weird concept. Undeath itself is an unnatural occurance, and having the Light, that can fully ressurect and fortify living beings, be a valid way of achieving it just doesn't make any sense, and goes further to squash any real differences between the different types of magic. Lame all around.
Making Calia leader of the forsaken doesn't make any sense, she may be the princess but she abandon those who turned undead and coming back like nothing happened is like when the King of France came back after the revolution obviously people are averse to it
Thank you for this video, I have so many thoughts! - that room kind in Gilneas looks like that one boss room in Hallowfall that's got the (Naaru?) crystal in the window, end boss might be a similar horror - I wonder if Void Monstrosities have similar origins: Like [Pure Madness -> Void Monster] [Pure Belief -> Light Monster] (and a stretch but Kobold end boss ) - maybe the "Lightraised" (for lack of a proper term rn ) is going to be like a dark souls/elden ring thing where the Arathi "Can't Die" b/c of the light - interested to see this play out with Anduin's doubt, Calia's search of purpose, Alleria's greater understandings, and perhaps in debate with Arator/Turalyon + Very excited for RP reasons b/c I've always thought of my Forsaken Holy Priest as manifesting Holy Horrors much like shadow/warlocks do instead of by prayer
I actually do find it odd that some races that can be both Warriors and Priests, can't be Paladins. That is literally what a Paladin is. Warriors trained in the Light, or a Priests trained in combat.
I always wondered why we could have blood paladins but not shadow paladins. That was always their excuse for forsaken priests, they were meant to all be shadow priests. Now they have a super contrived reason for them to wield the light so they have no excuse.
I’m just getting into wow now after missing the events of BOA and Shadowlands. I’m questing in Dragonflight and I’m enjoying it very much currently. Does anyone recommend playing any BOA or SL? I’m basically gathering the lore I miss here on TH-cam but is any of the gameplay worth it?
a little curious as the forsaken in lore if memoir serves me correctly are able to use the light but are weak to it, as when they use the light to heal wounds of other Undead or friend they feel great pain due their weakness to it. My question is I'm guessing the undead born (resurrected) from light do not suffer from this weakness?
My perspective on this is simple. The Forsaken being who they were wasn't because of a physical limitation but because of an idealogical one. Given that at the time, being Undead considered you an immediate monstrocity, with the Living accusing you of being one of the Lich King's minions and casting distrust upon your kind, it'd easily demoralise yourself away from any kind of belief that you had hope, redemption or any sort of kindness awaiting you. They were Forsaken, from their homes, from their own churches and from their loved ones. Lilian, for example, was disowned by her own flesh and blood. Despite still being obviously who he remembered, his fear of her undead state drove him to mercilessly sentence her to death. We see, yet again, in Stormsong, this exact scenerio play out despite Lilian's own warnings. Being discarded, being shunned away is at the heart of being Undead. Its the literal meaning of being Forsaked. Calia, on the other hand, represents what Lordaeron used to be. She represents a redemption for the Menethil family. She represents the royality that can provide hope to the people, a new pathway that can resolve the angst that the Forsaken have long since held towards the Living, the Light, all that is good and holy. She represents an ideal that doesn't believe that the Forsaken should be exterminated, unlike her former living counterparts such as the Scarlet Crusade. Under her banner, and that of the Council, they'll survive and more importantly, they'll be safeguarded from further prosecution, allowed to reunite with their living loved ones. She represents a chance to rebuild the Kingdom of Lordaeron, but under a new monarchy. The Forsaken, at the end of the day, are still fundamentally human. They still retain their human memories, their emotions, their needs. They act tough but under their rotting flesh, their souls are still wandering, still aimless and suffering from years of misunderstanding and hardship, both from the betrayal of Sylvanas but also the loss of what once was. Underneath it all, they have this deeply rich history from before their seeming damnation that never got explored within the game because at the time of WoW launching, they were already dead. Now, how does the magic work? Easily. Blizzard have established that any of the cosmic forces can subjugate and saturate any opposing or neighboring force with enough of their own power to turn them away from their origin point. Energy, that is, magic, is abundant in WoW. Any force will eventually infect other cosmic beings, from as small as mortals on Azeroth, to entire cosmic pantheons. You can't destory it, as it always has a home to return to, so it has to be displaced elsewhere, hence why an oversaturation of life leads to plant monstrosities, either in the Nighthold raid or on alternate Draenor. Its why demonic entities, like Illidan, could be "cleansed" by Light. The Demon Hunters are the faction embodiment of a madman wishing to achieve enough power that he was willing to undergo horrific circumstances because he figured out the power core of a demon was - the heart. The concept of the Death Knight was originally born from that of ancient warlocks, too. Likewise, the current concept of necromancy stems from its opposite, the power of creation, or atleast, the ordered variant of it as opposed to the chaotic oblivion that Void offers. Magic is, fundamentally, a fluid essence. Its purity strength is determined by whomever shapes its intended purposes, with certain thresholds being allowed to mix in moderation to form new, minor schools of cosmic powers to other thresholds being too hostile to coexist, which is why arcane and fel are two forces that have yet to be seen following these laws yet arcane, and say, nature, can coexist, with some limitations, as demostrated by the progentior to the Arcan'dor tree. We know that Shadowpriests walk fine lines between Void & Light, while they aren't the closest of friends by a long shot, they can be used alongside the other, with certain limitations being that it does cause pain to do so, yet its not impossible. We also know that in the case of say, the undead, as shown both in Maldraxxus but also in Forsaken lore, that limbs and magical sources can alter the final product of a corpse, enabling the vessel to harbor whatever its' makers' intended. Without any further context, who the fel knows what the Arathi did to those Undead. For all we can guess, they might be victims' of whatever the Arathi humans did to them, similar to the Scarlet Crusaders. After all, they live underneath a gigantic crystal of light. Whose to say they didn't start experimenting with the corpses of their fallen? Until we know anything further, people need to chill out.
I think Warcraft suffers from too much of a spotlight on major threats. I think the issue of forsaken sustainability didn't have to be tied to the Lich King, and they could have essentially been a safe haven for anyone turned undead by rogue necromancers or other necromantic phenomena.
I like the introduction to Calia, we need a Menathil in the game since they dropped the ball with Arthas in SL. I think her being the last heir to Lorderon makes sense and the fact she isnt about taking power makes her stand as a polar opposite Sylvanas and her rise and claim to power.
They do learn more about necromancy in a Maldraxxas storyline. Cant remember if it’s from a baseline maldraxxas story or from the de-plaguing lorderon quests that grant you undead skin for blood elves.
I mean the Forsaken 'our time will come', 'death to the living' not entirely horde, forsaken by human families, could have really played out to something interesting. spreading plague, rezzing undead. instead we get 'lets all hold hands and sing 'kumbaya my lord', lets all be frens, lets let this lightforged interloper be our leader
They will have a bunch of light ressurected undead. When the war between light and void starts the light will take full controll of them. Calia will be the next Sylvanas when she was controlled by the LK. Allied race Lightforged Undead. Some event will make player Lightforged Undead resistant to light's domination same as Dk's were resistant to LK's domination in WoTLK.
That is NOT how the meet between humans and undead went in Arathi Calia had nothing to do with the defection she just tried to help them after they were running for shelter towards the alliance.
It wasn't her idea to begin with, but when recognised she most def supported the idea of defecting. Not quoting the whole bit, but a part: "Calia turned away from the Prime Governor, ran forward a few paces, cupped her hands around her mouth, and shouted, "Forsaken! I am Carlia Menethil! Head for the keep!"
@@Nobbel87 wasen't that part after some of them were already running for the keep and she knew they would get slaughtered out there? Im quite certain she just reacted in the book to them trying to defect and getting slaughtered out there by their own kind so she tried to help "Her people".
@@Sqied 5:35 - the forsaken were having such a wonderful time that they didn't want the day to end so they asked Calia to stand with them, help them defect from Sylvanas, go back to the Alliance. Instead of taking any sort of politcal route, Calia was like yeah lets go, lets run away, run towards the alliance. That's how the meeting was described in the book, i'm paraphrasing ofcourse but that's what happened in that moment? Yeah it was a reaction on her part, it wasn't her idea to begin with but she still reacted by standing with them. The sister to Arthas, the last of the menethils decided to yell across the battlefield for the forsaken to run.
Yeah thing about undead. Is that they can't live in isolation. Thry quite need to inflict suffering in order to sustain themselves. So making them out to be simply tragic victims of circumstances instead of the sadistic zombies they're made out to be. They're supposed to be the skaven of wow.
Cool idea: The War Within, we see Alleria Windrunner about to die, the void taking her. However, just as she is about to slip into death she hears a cold, familiar voice "The Dark Lady... Watches... Over you!" And arrow strikes her soul and she is pinned back to her body, renewed with the vigor of the grave and she smacks the shit out of Xalatath
one thing I'm curious about. recent news that the lucrative chinese market has been opened once more. knowing their issues with undead, can't help ponder how this will play out? crabs everywhere😂
Blizzard had had a set of procedures for dealing with that issue since WoW debuted in China. The videos exploring the Chinese version client are fascinating. No bones, period.
Yup, probably why there’s not a single skull on the Darkspear Heritage armor. Didn’t want to make a separate set for China so they just shit the bed overall.
"Mortis (Death) Lumen (Light) Ordus (Order) rhythm and structure. Vitae (Life) Umbra (Void) Tumult (Disorder) Improvisation and possibility." Saezurah. I think Death works together with The Light and The Order and during Worldsoul Saga we may see that in action.
When the FORSAKEN get the Undercity area back i wonder wiil it be City above gets rebuilt and a will have new name and Undercity could be a underground area or be a Dungeon
I really don't like the Light-based undead. I was okay with Calia as a special exception, but I hate where they're going with this. The undead were interesting as a special breed of Dark-aligned monstrosity. The Light, by contrast, was always associated with purity. This 'all sides are equally bad' angle is fine in of itself, but keep the forces of the universe distinct in how they act. I would find it much more interesting if the Light was wholly focused on 'righting' existence to its ideal vision, intent on purging all undead, including the most peaceful of Forsaken, and desiring to take that even further by aiming to purge all races it deems 'unclean' or 'unworthy of purity and ascension' so to speak. Worship the 'wrong' force, such as the Tauren revering the Earth Mother, or the trolls with their Loa, or the night elves with Elune? Unworthy and unclean.
@@Altrantisshe can definitely express the undead's struggle through a change in her garments like a black robe or cardinal headdress. Maybe even some candles here and there. She sticks out from these grimy mutilated corpse people like a sore thumb.
I'm going full ☝️🤓 here... Wouldn't "killing calia" be still an act of violence against the alliance? She is the heir to lordaeron, the last living menethil. Isnt she supposed to be part of the old alliance with her bloodline? Her father was, even arthas was for a while. Of course she has no forces or actual political power since lordaeron is in ruins, but still her bloodline and heritage alone should classify her as "alliance friend" at least. The alliance not doing sh*t is such a blow to all the original forsaken of lordaeron. Watching their princess get killed by their new queen and their former friends and family not doing anything to help.😢 Also she just left for years leaving her people to suffer.
It's the people in the comments getting big mad about "lightforged" undead like Scourge magic is the only way to reanimate something. It's not like: Odyn, Trolls, Draenei, eredar, highborne, Drust, Mogu, etc dont have their own forms of necromancy.
Sylvanus had her run, if she comes back in some capacity, that's fine. But damn, people are mad about Calia and how she isn't the "typical" thing for the Forsaken or has no history with their struggle... Well that's the point, give them time to cook and build up her connection to the Undead. Sitting here acting like there's never been instances in fiction where people are suddendly thrusted into a position or responsibility that comes to be their hurtle and character growth due to having to adjust and figure out what their doing. And everyone mad about the light being able to do similar things to necromancy and that Calia's whole concept is weird. There was literally an Undead light user since like Vanilla/BC in Scarlet Monastery (and even if rare, there has been others) and I personally love the idea and can appreciate it's uniqueness. Compared to most of WoW and it's races being directly inspired by the same elves/dwarves and orcs/ogres that every other fantasy world/franchise does. Either way, I stand by my point and believe we should give it some time and not instant dog pile and hate everything Blizzard is trying to do. Chris Metzin is back with the crew, LET HIM AND BLIZZ COOK, JEEZUS.
I kinda appreciate the way the forsaken went. it's like we don't fit and this is where we belong together. since bfa it is a pool for all good aligned undead wich I find rather fitting
While I think the concept of the Forsaken using the light is cool, I also feel that they shouldnt have it. I feel like if they were meant to have it then they would have it already. If anything they should be inherently better Death Knights. Idk I’m just a surface dweller when it comes to WoW lore and think its interesting so what do I know
I don't want the light stuff to impact my Forsaken. Don't want anything to do with it. Signed up for their existing aesthetic. Not any light-forged stuff. That should be an allied race or something.
Light undead are a mistake. Mashing all the universal forces into the same "grey morality" slime is just lazy and ruins the immersion. Now that potentially every force can rise the undead, what are we going to see? Arcane/Order infused undeads? Elemental undeads? LIFE INFUSED UNDEADS?
As opposed to the replacement cataclysm character which they used the name sylvanas for..... which mass murdered and controlled all forsaken and destroyed any forsaken that wanted something else for their life. No...... "the Light" is not a person, it is not a voice, it is not a personality... it doesn't want things or hate things or like things. Meanwhile the replacement sylvanas from cataclysm onwards "did" do all bad and controlling things you supposedly dislike.
to continue the forsaken into the new generation of gamers they needed a family friendly alternative to necromancy. no mind control, just a nice and wholesome zombie. have the light reach out to your soul before, make it their choice to return, nothing against the will of the dead like we had with all of the forsaken before, now they are just undead.
Besides the fact that in every case we have, the light was forced upon the people that were resurrected or transformed. Kahlia was transformed by a Naru without het consent while the Dreadlord was also forced to accept the light. I assume that stays the case. Showing that light is not "good". Maybe the Army of Light uses light to revive people and forces them to fight and they later join the Forsaken.
@@apblolol Yeah. But im not sure it will stay this way. Other forces like void and life have shown to control people and i would not be surprised if light does the same if necessary.
I remember when the light was designed to hurt the undead by nature... That undead by light is so stupid on so many levels. Light brings you back to life in literal sense.
A Menethil and a Proudmoore can Never be a Horde, Never be Forsaken. We are the Forsaken! And will cut down any who stand in our way! For the Horde! Our Sylvanas would never have burned down the tree, why waste so many potential fallen rangers. Story would have been very different, Sylvanas would be fighting the void. Let her return for midnight, would be the right time. Put them Void back in their place, Victory for Sylvanas!
![The Story of Nerub-ar Palace [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/i2MOF8iYS6k/mqdefault.jpg)
![Will The Guardian Medivh Return? - [Warcraft Lore]](/img/n.gif)
"Sylvanas would be sentenced to play Shadowlands forever." Wow, I actually feel bad for her now.
Don't feel bad...she is winning down there. And, thanks to Sylvanas, loved ones can be reunited after death. She is the hero of the Afterlife
@@lindadelorme4259 Even her punishment was a ark of her 12d master plan.
@@lindadelorme4259 but she is forced to PLAY Shadowlands. Truly a fate worse than death
atleast she isnt playing WOD then I do really feel bad for her
@@lindadelorme4259 Garrosh : _* drops a Bomb on Theramore *_ -> People demanded his Execution during his Trial.
Sylvanas burns down a fxxxing *WORLD TREE* -> gets "excused" into a Mix between Banishment/Incarceration and Atonement by getting the Souls of all Nightelves out of the Maw.
To bad Garrosh was a male Orc. He had no Elfussy that made People simp for him really really hard.
"Who wouldn't want someone infused with the light on their side?" Oh, I don't know... The Venthyr, void lords, old gods, servants of the old gods...
Don’t tell that to Alleria
@@PurpleLightning6was9 She doesn't count. She's basically the void version of a demon hunter.
@@jase_allenI WANT THAT. A shadowstalker, hunter+shadow priest
Garrosh: What difference is there between you and the Lich King now?
Sylvanas: I look better in a corset.
true, in the end both are the tools of the legion
@@alwaysangry2232 true, in the end the legion was the tool of the Jailer
@@Dalawallany loremaster worth their salt has dismissed shadowlands as canon entirely
@@puffyeato well, unfortunately we got the fact that shadowlands is canon. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad, or if players love it or hate it. Blizzard wrote that shit and now they got to own it ;)
Debateable
For me the main reason I disliked them pushing Calia Menethil towards the Forsaken is because she has literally not been forsaken by anybody. No one turned their back on her after her undeath if anything everyone has been kind and understanding towards her. I have no issues with her character existing, if anything I liked the idea of her coming back into the story but she is not a Forsaken.
Isn't most of forsaken originally citizen of lordaeron, as the rightful heir to me it's rather natural she claimed her throne, and the council to represent other forsaken from other various origin that follow sylvannas after lich king power wanes during frozen throne campaign. And as a fan of the banshe queen I love the fact Syl has ascended to thrall/jaina/malfurion/tyrande/illidan's level character development to not be bound by her people to roam "freely" and hopefully returns when needed, and then Anduin is next, even though I'm not playing and don't plan to play I'm excited to see how the story goes, been playing since warcraft 2 loving every bit of warcraft lore although there's some sketchy part in the middle it's been great so far!
That is why there is a quest line about her not feeling accepted. She isn't forsaken but she is the Princess of Lordaeron. And sees the forsaken for who they were and not the monsters they are perceived to be. She was then killed for trying to help. She doesn't even truly see herself as forsaken for multiple reasons but still tries to help. The writing and presentation is bad but I don't think the general idea of the character is bad.
Yeah her position isnt really earned. Its like half of her character arch is missing.
@@TheHorreK2queens usually inherit there role not own it
I mean she is literal heir of Lordaeron throne and the original Forsaken are citizens of Lordaeron so it makes sense for Blizzard to push Caelia to Forsaken.
When I first heard Garrosh call Sylvanas "Btch" my jaw dropped. I thought "Naughty Blizzard thats not very family friendly." 😂
they used to not be so fucking pixar.
yeah. same here, Garrosh the only orc with balls to said that to Sylvanas
It probably wouldn't have dropped if you knew Sylvanas had already used the word in WC3.
@@Altrantis Last time I played WC3 was like 20 years ago lol. I don't remember her saying it.
Honestly, it still sounds forced in the Warcraft universe.
A Calia that loses the protections of the light and feels the suffering the light causes her people, it would give her another interesting feature to connect her to her people
I still believe that they cocked up Calia's introduction, and then shoved her into the leader role to force players to love her instead of Sylvanas. Sylvanas is an OG and will never be replaced, no matter how badly they write her out of Warcraft. Calia has ZERO history with the forsaken's struggle.
agreed her and garrosh overall had decent stories at worse during cata but being the perfect examples of certain types of extremes that could have been ran with. Sylvanas and Garrosh were both right and wrong back then. Though they butchered her potential so badly, especially with everything leading up to shadowlands. I could still defend BFA sylvanas because well it was just her bulwark mindset taken to the next level in the worse way but something that could be worked up as in desperation results in people taking extreme measures
That may be true, but for how long do you want the same ass characters from 20 years ago in the leading role? I think its good that modern wow tries to be their own thing. I personally dont like calia but my headcanon is that the forsaken feel somewhat nostalgic seeing a menethil with good intentions.
@@DomwynI don’t think people are really against differences and changes. It is all a matter of how it is done. Sylvanas stepping aside, becoming a player of Maldraxxus, an advisor, going off on a journey to rediscover herself, etc. All these possibilities tossed aside for what we got were always the issue.
There is no denying objectively the story leading up to Shadowlands and Shadowlands itself was bad. So bad it hurt the franchise as a whole and will always leave a negative feeling when it is brought up. Time will temper it but it cannot change it. Sadly this will always cause Calia’s story issues. Especially when she was a book character that came from nowhere into WoW. As for all those players that is what she is.
If they wanted us to like her they shouldn’t have made her commit treason…Same with Lilian Voss. The Forsakens most important leaders are treasonous rats and they’re going to force them on us over and over.
@@Domwyn execution is the problem remember anduin who is respected as a leader we watched him grow up and become the proper leader of the alliance after his father died. Collin becoming the leader of the horde as well was a change people enjoyed and respected the change was never the problem it was the wasted potentials and opportunities
Undead Paladins?
LETS GOOOOOOO!! ❤
Part of me still want Sylvanas and Nathanos to come back during Midnight to help save Silvermoon with the Forsaken. I just not a fan of Calia being pushed so much since it doesn’t feel earned or truly apart of the Forsaken.
I wouldn't say she's not truly part of the Forsaken, but her being shoe horned in to be Sylvanas's replacement and then pulling back from that to form a new desolate council wasn't great writing.
I think it‘s fitting. She‘s been an established character for a long time, even if not part of the main story. I like the idea of Arthas Menethil being the one to cause the suffering of the Forsaken and another Menethil guiding them back on the right track, redeeming the family name in the process. Also she is more fitting for the more peaceful society, that the Forsaken have become now, compared to Sylvanas, who was a soldier, leading a militant empire. She is the kind of leader that the Forsaken need. Especially in combination with Lilian Voss
@@jase_allen It was bad writing at best, it was hack writing you'd find put together by a couple of middle schoolers for a school project level of bad. Not only did it still feel like she was the default of this council the council and who was on it and why seemed very flimsy at best. It wasn't that these people were pushing to join the council and have a say against Calia no they were ready to bow to her and they had to be asked to join the council
For the dark ladyyyyyyyyy that new menithal lady can kick rocks
I have always liked the idea of undead paladins. It was inspired by dark souls, the first one, where you're an undead with an unbreakable will (much like in WoW), who continues on no matter what. I like the idea of knights with a holy mission who don't give up their oaths for something so intranscendent like undeath or eternal damnation. Just fueled by their will, they cast light spells that hurt them each and every time they do, but they carry on.
The idea of Light Risen Forsaken has always irked me. As a lifelong Forsaken player and a Sylvanas loyalist, they really lost me here. They've had opportunities to use void magic, ACTUAL necromancy from Maldraxxus....but they chose to use the light. Cool. I've been playing this game for almost 20 years now and I REALLY question some of the directions they've gone in. It seems they really lost the plot after Legion (which was fantastic)
Really sucks that after 20+ years there are only TWO races: Forsaken... and Forsaken FOOD! Mwahaha POWER TO THE FORSAKEN!
7:32 I’m a Forsaken main and a Sylvanas Loyalist. I literally quit WOW because they turned Sylvanas into a big bad. 😫
Okay serious question: a lot of people said that that “b*tch” line is not important so removing the insult is ok and people need to stop crying, yet this is one of the most important moments for Forsaken history and that line brings a lot of spice to that moment. Why did Blizz remove it?
ESG retards at Microsoft don't like any profanity in the +15 game.
Probably be PC? Idk
Blizzard has added in their terms of service that no swearing is allowed which is why people are getting wiped off of overwatch currently. So, they removed it to not look hypocritical. This had been before the new bans- and a long time ago too. I think it was either in Mists or Dreanor it got removed.
WoD aye. @@tuwak4792
@@tuwak4792 I thought they removed it in BfA, because supposedly some dev's kid saw it and wanted it removed. Many people didn't believe it, instead spreading theories that Danuser had the line removed because of his supposed Sylvanas simping. Honestly, I believe neither. Your explanation makes more sense.
Still hate all the light undead nonsense honestly, feels like they only wanted to make Calia super special and rewrote how necromancy worked just for that.
How did they rewrite necromancy? Druids rez with life magic, priests rez with holy magic, shamans rez with spirit or whatever.. lots of magical schools can give life, its just canonically rare
@@primal4887There is a difference between returning someone to a living state and undeath though. The living can go on to have kids, need to eat, etc. The undeath has flesh missing and that sorta thing. This is a change to classic necromancy as people know it.
@@primal4887always imagined that when you die in wow you don't actually die, but are in a dying state, and resurrection is more like bringing you back to "living" kinda like defibrillation. Notice how you can't ressurect actual skeletons. So the only way to rise the dead, was through some unholy death magic, hence death magic necromancy. Other schools of magic mentioned, like the drust, feel like using the corpse as an ingredient to turn it into a new living thing, rather than bringing back the old person as a undead
@@primal4887 Resurrection is not the same as necromancy
@@TheRagnarose it kinda is
Shoutout for keeping in the original Garrosh dialogue, instead of what Blizzard neutered it to
My main since the jump has been undead rogue(yes I'm a scumbag and proud) and if forsaken become light beings I will forever walk away from the race. I'm sorry but it's the opposite of what we were all going for with class fantasy. We want spooky and dark.
The problem is no one cares about Calia. They’ve done nothing with her besides say “oh woops she’s alive guess she should be leader of undead cause Arthas” even though that just makes no sense at the time bfa and shadowlands are happening because we still have sylvannas and we all care way more about her as the leader of the forsaken. I don’t think it’s fair to just jump into calia head first yet. She needs way more time for people to care
The council are the leader of the forsaken , there isnt no single one
@@GazingTrandoshan I mean sure that’s what the narrative explicitly says but do we feel that way? I feel like calia is the one that still gets fronted as in charge of them all. It feels like the game of thrones ending. Yeah sure “you broke the wheel” but did you really? Brann is an apparently omnipotent god who can see the future. Feels like you just changed tyrants. But it’s worse because I don’t think most of us care about the characters on the council as much as we care about sylvannas. I think calia can be better but it feels rushed. Because it is rushed because of what we all know was happening behind the scenes with afrasiabi
Ok you sort of convinced me, exploring the idea of essentially "the light doesn't want to let its "toys" go" sounds like an interesting idea. Non-light necromancy brought you back against your will, but if no one was around to "raise" you then you'd be able to stay dead, while the practitioners of the light might be so devoted that the light is like "nah you're not done yet, get back out there" (think sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy). You want to die but the light won't let you against your will because the light wants to have "more fun" basically.
It would be better to form the Forsaken into a third faction and wage war against the living again, but well, it's not meant to be
The warcraft 3 story of the foraaken was so dope... hate what they did to it in the last few wow expansions... undead of the light is like the dumbest shit ever..
I hated what they did with Sylvanas in BfA, but I'm really not a fan of "light undead" either.
Thank you for keeping the garrosh line in !
I miss Cataclysm Sylvanas, before she went full genocidal maniac.
I'm sorry but I consider Calia's Undead existence to be Lore breaking and nightmarish even by Undead standards, remember the Light is supposed to make the Undead's senses return, she must be living an horrific existence.
I still dislike the "Necromancy can be done by any Force", I feel like it kinda erases the uniqueness of them being different Forces if they all can do the same thing.
After her nonsense, I cant take her seriously.
Like shit makes that non canon kid look normal.
The way they built her motivation then was dumb and lazy though. It contradicts her previous actions. I mean, holding eternal damnation over her head as a way to prevent her suicide makes sense, but the way she understands it does not.
Lightforged undead being a playable race is such a bad idea
@@MorganRhysGibbons Because WoW players love getting worked up over non-issues.
@@TheTidesong Agreed, like why get worked up over bad story writing? You're gonna pay the sub anyways pay-pig.
Would be cool to be able to unlock Lightforged forsaken customisation for Undead. Or another race.. Even though I think many of the unlockable races could just be customisation options for existing ones. Looking at you LF Draenei, HM Tauren and Mechagnomes mainly.
Will they give us undead Necromancer Shaman soon? Instead of elementals lorewise they would have some skeletons and avominations and instead of the Elements they would call innthe forced of decay and try to soothe them for healing and command them to have Minions or empower themselves and their weapons. Similar to the kultiran druids but more undead in a way.
I cant stand Calia. Shes never been forsaken from anything. Quite the contrary, she has been welcomed everywhere she goes. She was welcomed into the alliance, she was for some reason welcomed into the horde...
Greymame is mad? Oh, calia is here. You like her right Genn? Yeah so now there can be peace between the worgen and foresaken. Because you like Calia. Everyone likes her...
And thats why i hate her. She has nothing to do with the faction she is apparently shoehorned into leading
She could probably make a good horde/alliance embassy member/council.
They really missed a good chance to have Greymane go psycho for revenge and be a bad guy. Instead we got whatever you want to call the lead up shadowlands and shadowlands itself.
She has more friends with Alliance leaders than Horde leaders it's insane how little in common she has with the rest of the undead
Here's an idea: Have Calia recruit the Arathi light-fused undead, have them form their own separate faction in the Forsaken under Calia's banner, and then have Calia get well and truly brainwashed by the light, go full Yrel on the Undercity, only for a familiar arrow to come zipping through, pinning her to the wall. Perfect chance for Sylvanus's return into the story, to save the Forsaken from cringe, retake her throne, with an attitude of pre-Cata Sylvanus, just less genocidal maniac. Honestly, playerbase would probably be happy with that, as in a return of a beloved character with the right attitude, and the removal of Calia, all in one fell swoop.
That throne never belonged to the cataclysm replacement sylvanas.
everyone’s complaining meanwhile the players have literally been able to resurrect eachother with the light since forever
Yeah. The Forsaken can use the Light, its just painful for them to do so. Plus, Forsaken's lack of use of the Light wasn't a physical limitation but a mental/spiritual one, one that's suppose to of been bridged by this point.
Lorewise resurrecting someone with the light is extremely rare.
Yeah, seems it's just how most of WoWs community/fan base is. Instant to hate or try to dismiss an idea before even giving it time to settle and really see what Blizz is doing with it. Oh well, I'm open minded and excited to see what the crew and Chris Metzin cook up with all this.
Gameplay doesnt equal lore, best example is corpse running.
@@1ViivviiX1 agreed.
Calia will befriend the Light infused undead, get them to join the Forsaken creating her "own" group of people within the Forsaken.
Calia will befriend Turalyon overtime. He will look past the fact that she is Undead because she was brought back by The Light. She will secure another "friend" within the Alliance.
Turalyon will see her as apart of a plan for the Light, to create an army of Light on Azeroth & a Crown of Light for an empty throne.
Funny how the supposed leader of the undead has more friends among the Alliance leaders than the horde leaders....... what a great character that truely makes sense to be a leader of the undead...
I was guarded with Calia at first, but I don't mind her anymore now. I like how she wants to help her people (now the Forsaken) regardless of their fate. I think they did her a disservice by TELLING US all of the hardship she apparently went through off-screen (specifically WC3 events up until Legion), as opposed to showing us. It makes it hard for us, as players, to suddenly get ANOTHER character that we're being told is so important and impactful...meanwhile they've just showed up after missing so much. It's sad because she HAS been through a lot, and she carries a huge burden considering her family's legacy. I feel her being filled with a deep shame and doubt now is very realistic. I'm hoping they continue her story and give her a little more grace.
thats the BIGGEST issue with more modern warcraft for a while they tell you everything off screen and then act surprise that people didnt like the story overall
I wish they had done a "the truth can't come out, they can never know" with Sylvannas & the forsaken. Like in the Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, they have to keep the illusion that Harvey Dent was good. I wish they had done that with Sylvannas. Like she betrays everyone for power & dies but because the forsaken love her so much, they cant let it get out or the horde's control on lordaeron and the forsaken will collapses. Her story is wrapped up nicely and its true to her character and the forsaken can evolve with the rest of WoW however way blizz wants.
I really miss my Dark Lady.
Apparently NECROmancy is poorly named since necromany literally means death magic.
For me I think they are on their Spawn arc if you would. In the heritage armour quest they remembered their Lordaeron roots.They will find a balance in raising the dead either light or darkness.
I think if they would give forsaken more customization options and updated racial abilities they would greatly return to popularity
I wonder how much they regret Shadowlands now for how much lore needed to be revised and will continue to be revised and contrived so the story can make sense.
Theres no way they planned even half of SL before BFAs end.
Yet had the guts to say the Jailor was planed allready during the development of wc3...
Even before they messed up with cronicles not being canon and the old god retcon...
@Th3BadThing But the story doesn't make sense... I still don't know what they are trying to say happened in DF, SL, or BFA... and I played every quest and every raid and every dungeon and every campaign of all three expansions. I read them all, I listened to them all... and they don't make sense.
I think this is a reason to add undead to the Alliance. Light undead will join the Alliance under the leadership of Calia. The undead will remain in the Horde. I hope I'm wrong.
I started as an undead in vanilla and mained it till my end during shadowlands. I've thought so many times about the role of the original forsaken and I really did identify with my character for so long. After seeing Arthas defeated, I missed a real motivation to move on from my character's perspective. Raising new forces into undeath didn't seem correct and was only acceptable for me so that we could stick it up their a**** to our former shitty neighbors in Gilneas who just kept hiding behind the wall while we were dying outside, slaughtered by the scourge or infected by the plague directly.
After all, I think the main motivation my retired character would have is to chill in the lands of Lordaeron, may reconnect with some old friends or family, dead or alive, and go on an adventure from time to time. Maybe parts of the land recover, maybe there's a way that I don't have change my body parts every now and then, but in the end the story is written for the (former) people of Lordaeron as which may character still identifies the most.
Don't get me wrong, dying night elf screams are still music in my ears.
question, what keeps undead alive? has there been a explanation on what keep them from decay into dust? with the lichking and others I understand that there is a power that control them and give them their power. but after all that gone, what hapend, is the shadowland providing the sustain they need? what if the forsaken turn into mindless undead after their mind decay?
I remember back in classic that forsaken were actually falling apart and they needed to keep "repairing" themselves with different body parts, but who knows now after all the retcons.
Stay out of the Barrens
Themselves. They are the ritual vessel, the end result of necromancy. Unless someone bothers to cut them down, and for good, they'll stay animated. Difference with the Forsaken is that the Lich King could no longer keep control over them and they took advantage of his weakness, allowing their minds to come back as their own. Without someone to control the undead, they simply begin to go rampant, which is exactly what happened in Northrend while we were off in the Shadowlands. Its why Bolvar was originally suppose to take over as custodian of Ice Crown so that the remaining, aimless undead couldn't go harassing the townsfolk.
The Forsaken do still decay. This is one of the reasons that Sylvanas had Nathanos 'soul' transferred into his cousin's body. Because his decaying body was falling apart and she needed him to be stronger when the Legion invaded. This made his body more like hers that it wouldn't decay anymore because of the Valkyr ritual that was used.
@@elweese soo you are saying that the undead biggest problem isnt that they cant repoduce but that with time they will just decompose? are they gonna be undead skelletons or they will just die.
So calia travelled all the way to meet the margrave to be told what she could of figured out herself if she had a slither of personality and assertiveness. Shadowlands was awful lol.
Undead created using the Light will never not be a very weird concept. Undeath itself is an unnatural occurance, and having the Light, that can fully ressurect and fortify living beings, be a valid way of achieving it just doesn't make any sense, and goes further to squash any real differences between the different types of magic. Lame all around.
I half believe that the light-forsaken are going to go Alliance with Turalyon and the old Forsaken may have to move into a burned out tree...
Making Calia leader of the forsaken doesn't make any sense, she may be the princess but she abandon those who turned undead and coming back like nothing happened is like when the King of France came back after the revolution obviously people are averse to it
Thank you for this video,
I have so many thoughts!
- that room kind in Gilneas looks like that one boss room in Hallowfall that's got the (Naaru?) crystal in the window, end boss might be a similar horror
- I wonder if Void Monstrosities have similar origins: Like [Pure Madness -> Void Monster] [Pure Belief -> Light Monster] (and a stretch but Kobold end boss )
- maybe the "Lightraised" (for lack of a proper term rn ) is going to be like a dark souls/elden ring thing where the Arathi "Can't Die" b/c of the light
- interested to see this play out with Anduin's doubt, Calia's search of purpose, Alleria's greater understandings, and perhaps in debate with Arator/Turalyon
+ Very excited for RP reasons b/c I've always thought of my Forsaken Holy Priest as manifesting Holy Horrors much like shadow/warlocks do instead of by prayer
what? another race? didnt we suffer enough?
8:20 so.. Finally Undead Paladins?!
I actually do find it odd that some races that can be both Warriors and Priests, can't be Paladins. That is literally what a Paladin is. Warriors trained in the Light, or a Priests trained in combat.
Ya, at this point any excuse they had to stop it doesn’t hold up.
I always wondered why we could have blood paladins but not shadow paladins. That was always their excuse for forsaken priests, they were meant to all be shadow priests. Now they have a super contrived reason for them to wield the light so they have no excuse.
I’ll be the first one making an undead Paladin if it opens up.
I’m just getting into wow now after missing the events of BOA and Shadowlands.
I’m questing in Dragonflight and I’m enjoying it very much currently.
Does anyone recommend playing any BOA or SL? I’m basically gathering the lore I miss here on TH-cam but is any of the gameplay worth it?
a little curious as the forsaken in lore if memoir serves me correctly are able to use the light but are weak to it, as when they use the light to heal wounds of other Undead or friend they feel great pain due their weakness to it. My question is I'm guessing the undead born (resurrected) from light do not suffer from this weakness?
I don’t think any amount of time passing will not make me grown when hearing about Shadowlands story in reference.
My perspective on this is simple. The Forsaken being who they were wasn't because of a physical limitation but because of an idealogical one. Given that at the time, being Undead considered you an immediate monstrocity, with the Living accusing you of being one of the Lich King's minions and casting distrust upon your kind, it'd easily demoralise yourself away from any kind of belief that you had hope, redemption or any sort of kindness awaiting you. They were Forsaken, from their homes, from their own churches and from their loved ones. Lilian, for example, was disowned by her own flesh and blood. Despite still being obviously who he remembered, his fear of her undead state drove him to mercilessly sentence her to death. We see, yet again, in Stormsong, this exact scenerio play out despite Lilian's own warnings. Being discarded, being shunned away is at the heart of being Undead. Its the literal meaning of being Forsaked.
Calia, on the other hand, represents what Lordaeron used to be. She represents a redemption for the Menethil family. She represents the royality that can provide hope to the people, a new pathway that can resolve the angst that the Forsaken have long since held towards the Living, the Light, all that is good and holy. She represents an ideal that doesn't believe that the Forsaken should be exterminated, unlike her former living counterparts such as the Scarlet Crusade. Under her banner, and that of the Council, they'll survive and more importantly, they'll be safeguarded from further prosecution, allowed to reunite with their living loved ones. She represents a chance to rebuild the Kingdom of Lordaeron, but under a new monarchy.
The Forsaken, at the end of the day, are still fundamentally human. They still retain their human memories, their emotions, their needs. They act tough but under their rotting flesh, their souls are still wandering, still aimless and suffering from years of misunderstanding and hardship, both from the betrayal of Sylvanas but also the loss of what once was. Underneath it all, they have this deeply rich history from before their seeming damnation that never got explored within the game because at the time of WoW launching, they were already dead.
Now, how does the magic work? Easily. Blizzard have established that any of the cosmic forces can subjugate and saturate any opposing or neighboring force with enough of their own power to turn them away from their origin point. Energy, that is, magic, is abundant in WoW. Any force will eventually infect other cosmic beings, from as small as mortals on Azeroth, to entire cosmic pantheons. You can't destory it, as it always has a home to return to, so it has to be displaced elsewhere, hence why an oversaturation of life leads to plant monstrosities, either in the Nighthold raid or on alternate Draenor. Its why demonic entities, like Illidan, could be "cleansed" by Light. The Demon Hunters are the faction embodiment of a madman wishing to achieve enough power that he was willing to undergo horrific circumstances because he figured out the power core of a demon was - the heart. The concept of the Death Knight was originally born from that of ancient warlocks, too. Likewise, the current concept of necromancy stems from its opposite, the power of creation, or atleast, the ordered variant of it as opposed to the chaotic oblivion that Void offers.
Magic is, fundamentally, a fluid essence. Its purity strength is determined by whomever shapes its intended purposes, with certain thresholds being allowed to mix in moderation to form new, minor schools of cosmic powers to other thresholds being too hostile to coexist, which is why arcane and fel are two forces that have yet to be seen following these laws yet arcane, and say, nature, can coexist, with some limitations, as demostrated by the progentior to the Arcan'dor tree. We know that Shadowpriests walk fine lines between Void & Light, while they aren't the closest of friends by a long shot, they can be used alongside the other, with certain limitations being that it does cause pain to do so, yet its not impossible. We also know that in the case of say, the undead, as shown both in Maldraxxus but also in Forsaken lore, that limbs and magical sources can alter the final product of a corpse, enabling the vessel to harbor whatever its' makers' intended.
Without any further context, who the fel knows what the Arathi did to those Undead. For all we can guess, they might be victims' of whatever the Arathi humans did to them, similar to the Scarlet Crusaders. After all, they live underneath a gigantic crystal of light. Whose to say they didn't start experimenting with the corpses of their fallen? Until we know anything further, people need to chill out.
Preach!
I think Warcraft suffers from too much of a spotlight on major threats. I think the issue of forsaken sustainability didn't have to be tied to the Lich King, and they could have essentially been a safe haven for anyone turned undead by rogue necromancers or other necromantic phenomena.
Personally, not a fan at all of "Light" undead, it just feels like a way to justify the Forsaken not going extinct.
But you're okay with a 1000 dead light-infused warriors buried under Light's Hope Chapel repelling undead?
There are so many other ways they could have done it. Something up and we don’t know what it is yet
I like the introduction to Calia, we need a Menathil in the game since they dropped the ball with Arthas in SL. I think her being the last heir to Lorderon makes sense and the fact she isnt about taking power makes her stand as a polar opposite Sylvanas and her rise and claim to power.
My idea was that they should get in touch with the shadowlands, acquire new knowledge about necromancy and start evolving as a species.
They do learn more about necromancy in a Maldraxxas storyline. Cant remember if it’s from a baseline maldraxxas story or from the de-plaguing lorderon quests that grant you undead skin for blood elves.
I mean the Forsaken 'our time will come', 'death to the living' not entirely horde, forsaken by human families, could have really played out to something interesting. spreading plague, rezzing undead. instead we get 'lets all hold hands and sing 'kumbaya my lord', lets all be frens, lets let this lightforged interloper be our leader
Those Light undead reminds me of the magic starved elves from Legion (don't remember their name) and the vampires from shadowlands
They will have a bunch of light ressurected undead. When the war between light and void starts the light will take full controll of them. Calia will be the next Sylvanas when she was controlled by the LK. Allied race Lightforged Undead. Some event will make player Lightforged Undead resistant to light's domination same as Dk's were resistant to LK's domination in WoTLK.
undead paladins? Forsaken PALADINS?!?! LET IT HAPPEN!!!
That is NOT how the meet between humans and undead went in Arathi Calia had nothing to do with the defection she just tried to help them after they were running for shelter towards the alliance.
It wasn't her idea to begin with, but when recognised she most def supported the idea of defecting. Not quoting the whole bit, but a part: "Calia turned away from the Prime Governor, ran forward a few paces, cupped her hands around her mouth, and shouted, "Forsaken! I am Carlia Menethil! Head for the keep!"
@@Nobbel87 wasen't that part after some of them were already running for the keep and she knew they would get slaughtered out there? Im quite certain she just reacted in the book to them trying to defect and getting slaughtered out there by their own kind so she tried to help "Her people".
@@Sqied 5:35 - the forsaken were having such a wonderful time that they didn't want the day to end so they asked Calia to stand with them, help them defect from Sylvanas, go back to the Alliance. Instead of taking any sort of politcal route, Calia was like yeah lets go, lets run away, run towards the alliance.
That's how the meeting was described in the book, i'm paraphrasing ofcourse but that's what happened in that moment? Yeah it was a reaction on her part, it wasn't her idea to begin with but she still reacted by standing with them. The sister to Arthas, the last of the menethils decided to yell across the battlefield for the forsaken to run.
Yeah thing about undead. Is that they can't live in isolation. Thry quite need to inflict suffering in order to sustain themselves. So making them out to be simply tragic victims of circumstances instead of the sadistic zombies they're made out to be. They're supposed to be the skaven of wow.
Cool idea: The War Within, we see Alleria Windrunner about to die, the void taking her. However, just as she is about to slip into death she hears a cold, familiar voice "The Dark Lady... Watches... Over you!" And arrow strikes her soul and she is pinned back to her body, renewed with the vigor of the grave and she smacks the shit out of Xalatath
sigh.... horrible writing. Light saving the Forsaken is just..... fuck that
100% sure players will cry if they get light infused undead
I think it would be kind of funny if the Horde is the one that ends up with the most races infused with the Light and not the Alliance
if the datamine are true she will come back sooner then we think windrunner that is good chance here sister dies in dalran
4:12 i miss this line why did they have to remove it
I just find Calia bland both in story and appearance.
4:15 HE SAID THE THING
"Watch your clever mouth, [censored]"
That has to be one of the most insane lines ever.
one thing I'm curious about. recent news that the lucrative chinese market has been opened once more. knowing their issues with undead, can't help ponder how this will play out? crabs everywhere😂
Blizzard had had a set of procedures for dealing with that issue since WoW debuted in China. The videos exploring the Chinese version client are fascinating. No bones, period.
Yup, probably why there’s not a single skull on the Darkspear Heritage armor. Didn’t want to make a separate set for China so they just shit the bed overall.
wonder the reaction from the Maghar orcs if lightforged undead come walking in Ogrimmar...
The same reaction every evil npc in warcraft fiction has, I would imagine.
Until Gnomes can be paladins, I will not support the Light. It’s not their fault they can’t reach it.
"Mortis (Death) Lumen (Light) Ordus (Order) rhythm and structure. Vitae (Life) Umbra (Void) Tumult (Disorder) Improvisation and possibility." Saezurah.
I think Death works together with The Light and The Order and during Worldsoul Saga we may see that in action.
Everything is a council now
I predict that sylvanas is going to come back when silvermoon gets updated. Please blizzard ❤
When the FORSAKEN get the Undercity area back i wonder wiil it be City above gets rebuilt and a will have new name and Undercity could be a underground area or be a Dungeon
I really don't like the Light-based undead. I was okay with Calia as a special exception, but I hate where they're going with this. The undead were interesting as a special breed of Dark-aligned monstrosity. The Light, by contrast, was always associated with purity. This 'all sides are equally bad' angle is fine in of itself, but keep the forces of the universe distinct in how they act.
I would find it much more interesting if the Light was wholly focused on 'righting' existence to its ideal vision, intent on purging all undead, including the most peaceful of Forsaken, and desiring to take that even further by aiming to purge all races it deems 'unclean' or 'unworthy of purity and ascension' so to speak. Worship the 'wrong' force, such as the Tauren revering the Earth Mother, or the trolls with their Loa, or the night elves with Elune? Unworthy and unclean.
Seriously calia needs a redesign her appearance and demeanor just cramps everyone's style.
I think she is what she is. It's not the design that makes her not fit.
@@Altrantisshe can definitely express the undead's struggle through a change in her garments like a black robe or cardinal headdress. Maybe even some candles here and there. She sticks out from these grimy mutilated corpse people like a sore thumb.
I'm going full ☝️🤓 here...
Wouldn't "killing calia" be still an act of violence against the alliance?
She is the heir to lordaeron, the last living menethil.
Isnt she supposed to be part of the old alliance with her bloodline? Her father was, even arthas was for a while.
Of course she has no forces or actual political power since lordaeron is in ruins, but still her bloodline and heritage alone should classify her as "alliance friend" at least.
The alliance not doing sh*t is such a blow to all the original forsaken of lordaeron.
Watching their princess get killed by their new queen and their former friends and family not doing anything to help.😢
Also she just left for years leaving her people to suffer.
It's the people in the comments getting big mad about "lightforged" undead like Scourge magic is the only way to reanimate something. It's not like: Odyn, Trolls, Draenei, eredar, highborne, Drust, Mogu, etc dont have their own forms of necromancy.
Sylvanus had her run, if she comes back in some capacity, that's fine. But damn, people are mad about Calia and how she isn't the "typical" thing for the Forsaken or has no history with their struggle... Well that's the point, give them time to cook and build up her connection to the Undead. Sitting here acting like there's never been instances in fiction where people are suddendly thrusted into a position or responsibility that comes to be their hurtle and character growth due to having to adjust and figure out what their doing. And everyone mad about the light being able to do similar things to necromancy and that Calia's whole concept is weird. There was literally an Undead light user since like Vanilla/BC in Scarlet Monastery (and even if rare, there has been others) and I personally love the idea and can appreciate it's uniqueness. Compared to most of WoW and it's races being directly inspired by the same elves/dwarves and orcs/ogres that every other fantasy world/franchise does.
Either way, I stand by my point and believe we should give it some time and not instant dog pile and hate everything Blizzard is trying to do. Chris Metzin is back with the crew, LET HIM AND BLIZZ COOK, JEEZUS.
YES. UNDEAD PALADINS INCOMING
I kinda appreciate the way the forsaken went. it's like we don't fit and this is where we belong together. since bfa it is a pool for all good aligned undead wich I find rather fitting
i have not kept up on Warcraft lore since W3 crazy to see what has happened to the undead since then
While I think the concept of the Forsaken using the light is cool, I also feel that they shouldnt have it. I feel like if they were meant to have it then they would have it already. If anything they should be inherently better Death Knights. Idk I’m just a surface dweller when it comes to WoW lore and think its interesting so what do I know
I don't want the light stuff to impact my Forsaken. Don't want anything to do with it. Signed up for their existing aesthetic. Not any light-forged stuff. That should be an allied race or something.
It would be very stupid to force players to change their whole astethic
There is only one leader for the Forsaken; I just want Sylvanas to return.
Light-Forged Undead! My fan theory is confirmed!
Storywise, the forsaken should have continued searching for a cure.
Light undead are a mistake. Mashing all the universal forces into the same "grey morality" slime is just lazy and ruins the immersion.
Now that potentially every force can rise the undead, what are we going to see? Arcane/Order infused undeads? Elemental undeads? LIFE INFUSED UNDEADS?
Lilian Voss for BOSS!!!
I forgot about that ending questline. "Look guys, Calia's one of us now! Death Prime said so herself!"
Necromancy is necromancy is the dumbest thing ever.
Light is bad and controlling
As opposed to the replacement cataclysm character which they used the name sylvanas for..... which mass murdered and controlled all forsaken and destroyed any forsaken that wanted something else for their life. No...... "the Light" is not a person, it is not a voice, it is not a personality... it doesn't want things or hate things or like things. Meanwhile the replacement sylvanas from cataclysm onwards "did" do all bad and controlling things you supposedly dislike.
to continue the forsaken into the new generation of gamers they needed a family friendly alternative to necromancy. no mind control, just a nice and wholesome zombie. have the light reach out to your soul before, make it their choice to return, nothing against the will of the dead like we had with all of the forsaken before, now they are just undead.
Besides the fact that in every case we have, the light was forced upon the people that were resurrected or transformed. Kahlia was transformed by a Naru without het consent while the Dreadlord was also forced to accept the light. I assume that stays the case. Showing that light is not "good".
Maybe the Army of Light uses light to revive people and forces them to fight and they later join the Forsaken.
@18Krieger yeah the light is nonconcentual, but it's no mind controlling force like arthas was.
@@apblolol Yeah. But im not sure it will stay this way. Other forces like void and life have shown to control people and i would not be surprised if light does the same if necessary.
I remember when the light was designed to hurt the undead by nature...
That undead by light is so stupid on so many levels. Light brings you back to life in literal sense.
A Menethil and a Proudmoore can Never be a Horde, Never be Forsaken. We are the Forsaken! And will cut down any who stand in our way! For the Horde!
Our Sylvanas would never have burned down the tree, why waste so many potential fallen rangers. Story would have been very different, Sylvanas would be fighting the void.
Let her return for midnight, would be the right time. Put them Void back in their place, Victory for Sylvanas!
Cringe.