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If only comments could let universes develop normally so kids could grow up normally and wouldn't need to grow so fast to make them relevant And also DC could stop resetting their universes to allow for this too
@@NoahRJitil You’re really gonna sit here and say that Avi Arad did more damage to Spider-Man’s brand than the dude behind Sins Past and One More Day? BSFFR
The irony of Quesada preaching that he didn’t like the idea of Peter having kids ‘out of wedlock’ but then using the literal Devil to make his idealised take on the character a few years later.
@@Fanatic_ForememOne More Day is definitely worse, because it effectively broke the series forever. Not that they haven’t tried to break it even further with stuff like Dead Language.
The Norman/Gwen part got retconned by the Sin Eater but we're probably stuck with "the Parker luck" keeping Peter permanently single and unhappy in the main 616 continuity. "Voting" for Ultimate Spider Man with our dollars may send Marvel the message they need though.
@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i love JMS's work, but it seems like it wasn't JUST Quesada's meddling that created the story. I totally believe that it was a mix of corporate sticking their head where they shouldn't and JMS often retconning stuff to create new stories (like the spider totem stuff). At the end of the day, JMS is only human and is prone to make mistakes at work that he probably shouldn't have, just like the rest of us.
That segment of quoting Joe Quesada felt like watching spiderman get beat over the head with a bat constantly. I have never heard someone not understand spiderman so well till now and want the most uneasccary stuff.
Ok now imagine that but for the X-Men - that's what listening to the new editor, Tom Brevoort talk about the X-Men and especially the last 5 years of krakoan comics is like
Quesada: _"Fans wouldn't relate to Peter having kids, it would age him immediately and make him not popular"_ *New Ultimate Spider-Man becomes one of the best retellings and fans, causals and even non comic hardcore people praises a mature, older, father of two happily married to MJ Peter*
Fairly sure One More Day is more hated than Sins Past or Sins Remembered, even when Sins Past was still canon. I mean for one, Sins Past isn't canon anymore, OMD is. Secondly, even when it was, it's fairly easy to ignore because it's *almost never* brought up again and is very easy to ignore. OMD can't be ignored because its effects are present in every Spider-Man comic set in the main continuity. As for Sins Remembered, most people, aptly don't remember it even existed and it's pretty much forgotten by everyone.
I'm mean Technically it is brought up again the daughter appears in some books that I can't remember the name of and the son appears in a book after Norman Osborne becomes the director of shield and he wants Harry to be part of his bootleg Avengers but Harry's too weak and so he brings in his other son. It's bad but still happened
@@ryanmccarthy439 Like I said, it's *almost never* brought up again, and is fairly easy it ignore if you just want to pretend it never existed. One More Day can't be ignored, it's literally impossible. The only way to ignore it is to just not read anything Spider-Man related in the 616-continuity.
The best thing about One More Day is it proved that the Hulk is ridiculously resistance and really is a direct creation from the One Above All, being the only one never to forget Peter.
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn’t the comic being talked about. No one likes OMD, and it irritatingly continues to remain canon. I want Spider-girl to come back dangit
Quesada made a lot of bad decisions while he was running Marvel,the best stories during the Quesada 2000's era was the stories he had the least involvement with and where the writers had creative control.
Reminds me of those sleazeball rich guys who claimed they didn't force their victims to have sex with them and that said victims were literally asking for it.
The reason I hate this story is that they literally had no reason for this retcon, like one more day at the very least serves a purpose, what does this story even do?
I actually had the fortune to get the whole lot at my comic shop this month. Even though the story is a pointless retcon, Peter still felt like a grown man instead of the hot-headed dunce he is now.
You know things are dire when even in *this* story, Peter Parker still feels more well-written and in-character than he does in the vast majority of his comics from the last 15 years.
@@marvelfannumber1 Comparing JMS' Spider-Man run to Zeb Wells is night and day. I mean, Peter's character now is a dork who's in over his head and can barely function.
@@christopherb501 Honestly if Wells stopped using decompressive storytelling and had every tale condensed to one or two issues then his run might be better well regarded. It's one thing to read one dumb comic but needing to read six issues is a tall order.
You know what's interesting? If this wasn't a Spider-Man story and was something like Elektra having kids with Kingpin and making it a Daredevil story, it might have been really well received. The fact that these decisions went so against the concept of Spider-Man was what really ruined the book.
What I think the one thing people gloss over in what this story ruins is the fact that Norman in NO WAY WOULD CALL HARRY "USELESS" IN THE ERA IT TAKES PLACE. The whole preludo to death of Gwen Stacy is based on the point that for all Norman selfishness there genuine concern for his son and one of dramatic ironies post Gwen death is the fact that Peter treated Harry as more disposable and with more apathy to his condition than Norman did. Sins Past character NUKED everyone involved, not just Gwen and Osborn character is still dead because of being denied being more than selfish monster. EDIT: YAY, Drake mentioned that.
You know, this isn’t better, but Harry could have been the dad. Norman could have still been obsessed with the kids & raising them as his heirs, but it would remove him/Gwen’s gross stuff.
This is what drives me insane, because it would have made the most sense. Yeah, the story would have still been crap, but not _icky_ crap. Peter was distant while Harry was needy. Gwen could have been compelled in a moment of weakness to sleep with him. It would still have been character assassination, but not in the ridiculous levels the actual comic gets up to.
that's what I was thinking. Why is Norman Osborne number 2 on the list of characters who could've fathered Gwen Stacy's children? How does anyone think like that?
17:25 Apparently Peter failed to understand that doctor-patient confidentiality doesn't apply to visitors and that doctors have to comply with subpoenas and discovery requests. It _does_ apparently prevent a doctor from providing testimony though. Course, all this depends on jurisdiction.
Why did Quesada think people would care about Peter having sex out of Wedlock!? Who would give a shit about two college students having sex while dating?!
The more time goes on, the more I miss apricate Nick Spencer's time on Spider-Man, and I was always a fan when it was being put out. JMS being tied Sin's Past and One More Day, with context knowing what he wanted to do, and what he didn't, made his tenure still really strong, even with Spider-Totems, Inheritors, The Other mixed in there.
Spider-totems were awesome. Sins past and OMD are obviously bad but since it was Quesada's fault I don't count those against him, and the mystical stuff he did with spider-totems and inheritors aren't a mark against him, they're a positive part of his time
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Totems are a very, very controversial part of the fandom. The reason people don't like Spider-Totems is because it goes against one of the themes of Spider-Man: "Anyone can wear the mask." Peter is no longer an ordinary person who was randomly given powers and decided to use them to do good out of his own normal heart, he was a Chosen Special One by the Spider-God and you cannot be a Spider-Man without being a special chosen(as seen with Ezekiel). If you do not have a special golden heart etc, you cannot be Spider-Man. No one can do everything Peter does, Peter has the strong willpower to do stuff because he's the chosen etc etc.
@@flerken4233 Maybe a hot take, but I've never really liked the whole anyone can wear the mask idea anyway, we've seen plenty of other characters get powers and not be as much of a hero as Peter and even do bad with their abilities, Peter is Spider-Man cause he understands the responsibility that comes with it
@@mikemorro140 That's a problem of misinterpretation. What "anyone can wear the mask" really means is that anyone has the potential to be a hero. Yeah, a lot of people do badly, but that's because of personal choice and not because there's an external force impeding them. That's the entire message: it's not your race, gender, species, upbringing, wealth or fate what makes you a hero, it's your choices. This whole thing loses all meaning when it's "revealed" you were secretly "the chosen one" all along.
"...despite the fact that he jump at least 100 ft in the rain directly onto the moving truck which he clung to with his fingertips." I don't know man, sounds like an average Joe to me 🤷
There is also a Story where Peter is apparently actually Aunt May's SON. As in one story she slept with Ben and Richard. May gets pregnant........but here's the kicker. Ben can't have kids, so the baby May had was....... Peter Parker she gave him to Richard and Mary to raise until they die
That still could be canonical to the Ultimate Universe, as Trouble was set in the UU. It never was set in the main universe, as the ages don't line up.
@@flerken4233but Aunt May was in her early 50s in that universe so that still doesn't make any sense since their age in Trouble was in the 17-19 range
11:35 Would Peter have even wanted to continue being with Gwen if he had found out about the affair before she died? Then again, that’s way too much brain power wasted on this disgusting story.
Best of luck with Sins Rising! If possible it'd be really nice if you could shine a light on Harry's arc in JMD's Spectacular 178-200 run since despite being a landmark story, the lack of republication outside of two issues has meant it's severely overlooked, and I think that may have led to no one checking the details in the rush to backpeddle from OMD...like entire characterizations and the whole reason the story happens...
Imagine how funny it would be to show… let’s say the cast of Spectacular Spider-Man the panel that showed Gwen’s affair with Norman. Given that Harry guilt tripped Gwen into staying with him, he’d probably dump her on the spot. Meanwhile Captain Stacy is going to quickly shoot down a returning Norman as quick as Stan Smith gunned down Peter Griffin. Hell if we showed this to the cast of the 2017 cartoon. That show’s Harry is going to channel his inner Ryuji.
12:50 I love how Quesada's fixation on why the story was out of his comfort zone was because of the whole "spider-man having unprotected sex out of wedlock" and not once mentioning, y'know, *the fact that this story would have spider-man attracted to one of his own illegitimate children* .
The one thing that Sins Past solidified is that Green Goblin will always be Spider-Man's most personal antagonist. It's bad enough that Goblin was the first antagonist to figure out Spider-Man's identity and being able to attack him directly and indirectly and not only kill Gwen Stacy, but he assaults her taking her virginity in the process. That's so evil. It's so sad how Gwen Stacy's character was treated in this story.
When I was first curious about getting into mainstream comics, I picked up an issue of Amazing Spider-Man. It was #512, Sins Past Part Four. Imagine for a moment that this is the year you've seen the second Spider-Man movie released and enjoyed both of them enough to actually buy a Spider-Man comic for the first time in your life. And it's Sins Past part 4, the one with Peter imagining Norman Osborn fucking his girlfriend and Norman's O-face. It was years before I wanted to pick up another Marvel comic book.
Did Joe Q know Flash existed with Wally West who dated, got married, snd had kids and it never ruined the story nor Wally's relationship with his fans? Also, would this story have been better in Peter had been the father? It would certainly be less creepy?
This is one instance where Wuesada had a point Imo- Peter having kids looking the Exact Same Age Range as him just seems too wild & would’ve made him appear far older to readers ( he’d need to be about 50-ish).
15:24 working from memory, there are at least two other instances (other than Paul Stacy) where the exact scenario was played, with someone falling from the bridge and Spider-Man thinking that "he run this scenario thousands of times in his head so he won't let it happen again". One during the clone saga where he saves the Gwen Stacy Clone by swinging instead of webbing her, and one during the MK Spider-Man, saving MJ by webbing her in a bunch of places in her body, so the impact won't kill her or something. Understandable that writers would try something like this, but for anyone who has read enough Spider-Man it's very tyring.
Awesome video! I always knew about the story but not in full detail as well as the spin-offs it had. Also did you tease that you are going to talk about DK Strikes back with that pic in the beginning? That would be a fun vid!
I once had someone tell me that the surest sign of a Superman story being bad is how OOC Lois Lane is written. I think that also applies to Mary Jane in Spidey stories.
This is one of the few times I remember going through a kind of cognitive dissonance and working through it, right at the comic book store. So I pick up the book, flip it open, and BOOM!!! First page, THE VERY FIRST PAGE I open to is Green Goblin's "O-face". It was like the world STOPPED right there for a few minutes. I remember almost every thought I had in vivid detail: "WHAT??!!?! Nooooo...." "Why?! How'd we get here??! I need to know..." "No! No I don't! What're you talking about?!" It went on like this in my head for some time. Then I had like this revelation: "You know, just because you like Spiderman, doesn't mean you gotta buy EVERYTHING that says Spiderman on it." Even though I knew that consciously, finally saying it to myself caused this weight to be lifted from my shoulders as a fan.
Drake, I have never read Sins Past and Sin Remembered, but from the plot synopsises that you gave from both, they sound really truly awful, and bad. I'm glad I have never read it. I'm mind boggled, that Joe Quesada thought it was okay to have the writer J. Michael Strazinski have it be Norman and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant resulting in fraternal twins! This is worse if Peter and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant and had even one baby. As if Peter and Gwen having sex(while they were in college mind you) would have been so horrible. They were in a relationship at least! This is sick and wrong. I just started reading Spider-Man comics few years ago when I found Back To Basics from 2018-2019 written by Nick Spencer and drawn by Ryan Ottley. I really enjoyed their run on Spider-Man, but I wasn't aware J. Michael Strazinski ever wrote any of the comics. I know he created Babylon 5 back in the 90's, but I can't fathom why this story and it's sequel exist. I'm truly offended this got written and published.
Thank you for covering this also good to see a new video! Really miss Peter as a science teacher. Ever think about doing something X-Men related? Been getting really into them lately
Hey there. Here is an idea for a video topic that would be completely up your alley: Agents of Atlas. During the period between the gold and silver age (between Timely and Marvel) Atlas Comics had a few superhero-esque characters. The characters debuted as a team in "What If" in 1979 and in 2006 they brought into the main universe with miniseries. I have done a search on TH-cam and there really isn't any good videos on this team.
Whqt makes Spiderman special is the fact that Peter is a regular dude, he has a normal family a normal job, and often struggles with his finances. It makes perfect sense for him to have made some mistakes in his personal life in the past, like having kida out of wedlock. And honestly, the only good reason for not letting Peter have kids is that he just can't afford it, as he's either a public school teacher or underpaid researcher, and also because being Spiderman doesn't allow him the time to properly raise a child.
Honestly people would still be able to connect with Spider Man regardless if he’s older or not, so it would’ve been fine if they were made to be Peter’s kids.🐱
9:47 Here is something I always wondered. Why didn’t Norman just tell them Peter and Spidey were one and the same? They find out anyways so it doesn’t matter. Hell cut out that stuff in the rain and have them attack Peter in costume it would make moments like we can kill then whenever scarier.
I would say that One More Day is still the worst Spider-Man book with the worst, most long-lasting repercussions but yeah, Sins Past was horrible. I had no interest in reading Sins Remembered but it sounds even worse. AND this video confirms that Joe Quesada remains Spider-Man's one, true arch-nemesis.
Wow I really thought Nick Lowe was really the worst. Joe Quesada really is the worst, isn’t he? In his defense, Joe Quesada said he did it for understandable marketing reasons, while wrong in his judgement. Nick Lowe saying he doesn’t feel like Spider-Man should grow up because he doesn’t agree Peter should progress as a character makes him worse in that degree.
To be fair,Goku is a bad example. Dude barely ages(partly because he is an alien,partly because he is...well dead for substantial amounts of time). If anything,Goku mentally regressed(thanks Super). JoJo would have been a better example.
oh this one....Sin's past happened to be the first comic book I picked up at newsstand. The story was controversial to be least. I did find it interesting of what became of Gabriel and Sarah.
that rapid aging thing never made sense to me the goblin serum never turned norman into an old fucking man. Why would it make the kids grow up really really fast?
It was unrelated. There's a real syndrome that causes people to age faster, though I don't think it quite works as neatly as this, and that was always a part of the story, even when Peter was supposed to be the dad. They just happened to have it. Look Sins Past is bad.
Unfortunately, not soon. I have a couple more Marvel videos in the works, but I want to try to cover some other publishers. Marvel has been such a huge focus that I'm getting a little burnt out.
Holy hell dude I knew abut the kids existing but all tha after with the followup.. wow. Yet another ridiculously in depth deep dive into some of the wierdest unknown history of comics. Great stuff once again.
This was the first Spider-Man comic I ever read back in the first or second grade and sadly the Green Goblin's O face has lived rent free in the back of my mind... Looking back on it I wondered why the hell this was in the school library then I remembered oh right colorful superhero comic
After reading this story for the first time I thought of something. It wouldn´t make the story good, but maybe just a bit better. What if Gabriel and Sarah were Gwen and Harry Osborn kids, instead of Norman. At least, that way we don´t have that huge age gap. And if you still want to say that they grow up so fast, maybe Norman used a version of the Goblin serum with them after they were born and Gwen died.
With all the good and bad stories about this guy, you think it’s an obligation to write Peter having a bad life after he gets he’s act together and begins to be happy
Thank god sins past retconned out of existence as of late, because holy shit sins past as a story did so much damage to Gwen Stacy character at marvel comics that i wasn't even funny but just sad depressing and just proves my point more and more that marvel really hates Peter parker Spider-Man being happy at least in my opinion.
Huh? You make it sound like it would have been better if Quesada hadn't interfered and let Peter be the father of the twins instead of Norman... that would have been a POS as well... In fact I think it would have been far worse.
As much as I look forward to you discussing the equally absurd Nick Spencer retcon, I realize that'll put you in dangerous proximity to the Zeb Wells run... *shudders*
I’ve learned to rarely get mad over shot in comics, and even when I did, it was nothing ridiculous. But THIS…this ACTUALLY pissed me off. For everything else stated, as well as how it took Gwen’s character and just threw it in the trash. Sad park is I actually loved MDJs artwork in this 🤷♂️ ~_~
This should just prove that Norman Osborn is pure evil and doesn’t deserve redemption but that it revealed Harry was behind all of this which proves that he is the toxic human being on the planet and Peter deserves a better friend than him.
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Welp, guess you need to do a video on Hal Jordan hooking up with an underage Arisia... or y'know the whole Deathstroke/Terra thing.
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@@swandive46 wh-what!?
If I had a dollar for every superbaby that "grew at an accelerated rate" in a superhero comic, I could probably afford to have kids myself.
Well its better then trapping them on an alternative dimension only to be tortured by an evil version of their father for years
They just did it to Spider-Woman 's kid, unfortunately
Wait my comment was deleted for some reason yet i still get the reply notification? What?
@@blackphoenix77 hulk, wolverin, scot,captain marvel etc
If only comments could let universes develop normally so kids could grow up normally and wouldn't need to grow so fast to make them relevant
And also DC could stop resetting their universes to allow for this too
My main takeaway from this is that Joe Quesada is the worst thing to happen to Spider-Man.
Nick Lowe be like: hold my drink
And X-Men
Avi Arad would like a word
@@NoahRJitil You’re really gonna sit here and say that Avi Arad did more damage to Spider-Man’s brand than the dude behind Sins Past and One More Day? BSFFR
Nick Lowe & Zeb Wells really trying to outdo Quesada though.
The irony of Quesada preaching that he didn’t like the idea of Peter having kids ‘out of wedlock’ but then using the literal Devil to make his idealised take on the character a few years later.
And now Peters literally being cuckolded in his main comic run by some guy named Paul
Yeah, this or One More Day. The Norman/Gwen part is just so awful. I really find this story depressing.
feel like one more day is worse, simply because you can forget sins past happened.
Hey ComicTropes! 😃 Great to see you here!
@@Fanatic_ForememOne More Day is definitely worse, because it effectively broke the series forever.
Not that they haven’t tried to break it even further with stuff like Dead Language.
The Norman/Gwen part got retconned by the Sin Eater but we're probably stuck with "the Parker luck" keeping Peter permanently single and unhappy in the main 616 continuity. "Voting" for Ultimate Spider Man with our dollars may send Marvel the message they need though.
Imagine being JMS writing arguably the most acclaimed Spider-Man run of the 2000s only for this to happen.
yeah joe quesada really loved to try to ruin JMS's spidey run in increasingly absurd ways didnt he
@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i love JMS's work, but it seems like it wasn't JUST Quesada's meddling that created the story. I totally believe that it was a mix of corporate sticking their head where they shouldn't and JMS often retconning stuff to create new stories (like the spider totem stuff). At the end of the day, JMS is only human and is prone to make mistakes at work that he probably shouldn't have, just like the rest of us.
Everyone, thank Nick Spencer for retconning this.
In Nick we trust, I guess? Well, at least in this specific field.
That's one way of saying it
Well, atleast thank him for plenty of memes of Norman banging mysterio.
HAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD MYSTERYO
FUNNIEST SHIT STILL
Thank you, Nick
That segment of quoting Joe Quesada felt like watching spiderman get beat over the head with a bat constantly. I have never heard someone not understand spiderman so well till now and want the most uneasccary stuff.
Ok now imagine that but for the X-Men - that's what listening to the new editor, Tom Brevoort talk about the X-Men and especially the last 5 years of krakoan comics is like
Quesada: _"Fans wouldn't relate to Peter having kids, it would age him immediately and make him not popular"_
*New Ultimate Spider-Man becomes one of the best retellings and fans, causals and even non comic hardcore people praises a mature, older, father of two happily married to MJ Peter*
That's because Quesada and a lot of other writers and fans are still blinded by Nostalgia *Cough Krakoa Haters*
Hell yeah it is!
@@ashtonchane6126 so you agree with me
Sometimes you have to wonder: are the heads of Marvel trying to be funny or are they stupid
@@K1ng1995 Yup!
Fairly sure One More Day is more hated than Sins Past or Sins Remembered, even when Sins Past was still canon. I mean for one, Sins Past isn't canon anymore, OMD is. Secondly, even when it was, it's fairly easy to ignore because it's *almost never* brought up again and is very easy to ignore. OMD can't be ignored because its effects are present in every Spider-Man comic set in the main continuity. As for Sins Remembered, most people, aptly don't remember it even existed and it's pretty much forgotten by everyone.
I'm mean Technically it is brought up again the daughter appears in some books that I can't remember the name of and the son appears in a book after Norman Osborne becomes the director of shield and he wants Harry to be part of his bootleg Avengers but Harry's too weak and so he brings in his other son. It's bad but still happened
@@ryanmccarthy439
Like I said, it's *almost never* brought up again, and is fairly easy it ignore if you just want to pretend it never existed.
One More Day can't be ignored, it's literally impossible. The only way to ignore it is to just not read anything Spider-Man related in the 616-continuity.
@@marvelfannumber1Or just read anything before OMD( almost any Spider-Man story before 2007 basically).
The best thing about One More Day is it proved that the Hulk is ridiculously resistance and really is a direct creation from the One Above All, being the only one never to forget Peter.
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn’t the comic being talked about. No one likes OMD, and it irritatingly continues to remain canon. I want Spider-girl to come back dangit
Tbh Quesada's statement that he didn't "force" JMS to make Norman the father reeks of him just washing his hands of responsibility.
Quesada made a lot of bad decisions while he was running Marvel,the best stories during the Quesada 2000's era was the stories he had the least involvement with and where the writers had creative control.
Reminds me of those sleazeball rich guys who claimed they didn't force their victims to have sex with them and that said victims were literally asking for it.
NORMAN UNDENIABLY BANGED MYSTERIO IN A BLONDE WIG
Are the children also Mysterio?
@@lucjan1897 they are clones
@@lucjan1897 Spencer don't care about them
Did Mysterio wear the wig over his fish ball helmet.
@@averynormalacount2887 "the Helmet stays on, norman"
The worst comics aren’t just bad, but actively damage classic stories in retrospect. I still think that one more day is worst, but it’s close.
Ain't that right, Identity Crisis?
The reason I hate this story is that they literally had no reason for this retcon, like one more day at the very least serves a purpose, what does this story even do?
Exactly. One More Day sucks, but it served a purpose that at least set up new stories. Sins Past was just completely unnecessary.
I makes you want a refund
I guess it was meant to get readers' attention like "WHAT? GWEN AND PETER HAD KIDS? I GOTTA BUY THIS TO FIND OUT MORE" or something like that.
One More Day didn't serve a purpose, Peter and MJ could of stayed married.
@@justinarzola4584 I never said it served a GOOD purpose.
I actually had the fortune to get the whole lot at my comic shop this month. Even though the story is a pointless retcon, Peter still felt like a grown man instead of the hot-headed dunce he is now.
You know things are dire when even in *this* story, Peter Parker still feels more well-written and in-character than he does in the vast majority of his comics from the last 15 years.
@@marvelfannumber1 Comparing JMS' Spider-Man run to Zeb Wells is night and day. I mean, Peter's character now is a dork who's in over his head and can barely function.
@@wdcain1 Zeb Wells is a thoughtless hack.
@@christopherb501 Honestly if Wells stopped using decompressive storytelling and had every tale condensed to one or two issues then his run might be better well regarded. It's one thing to read one dumb comic but needing to read six issues is a tall order.
@@wdcain1 So basically Wells has devolved Peter back to his 1960s high school self.
You know what's interesting? If this wasn't a Spider-Man story and was something like Elektra having kids with Kingpin and making it a Daredevil story, it might have been really well received. The fact that these decisions went so against the concept of Spider-Man was what really ruined the book.
Yeah, I think drama works for Spider-man, but this is the equivalent of cutting a healed scar and put salt in it
No, that idea sounds awful, too.
@@maxburrill6192they’d have to replace that Norman panel with Kingpin, and that’s not better at all
"Most Hated Spiderman Comic"
Wait this isn't One More Day
What I think the one thing people gloss over in what this story ruins is the fact that Norman in NO WAY WOULD CALL HARRY "USELESS" IN THE ERA IT TAKES PLACE. The whole preludo to death of Gwen Stacy is based on the point that for all Norman selfishness there genuine concern for his son and one of dramatic ironies post Gwen death is the fact that Peter treated Harry as more disposable and with more apathy to his condition than Norman did. Sins Past character NUKED everyone involved, not just Gwen and Osborn character is still dead because of being denied being more than selfish monster.
EDIT: YAY, Drake mentioned that.
its a big problem with Norman Post-Clone Saga characterization, they turned into him into this cliche amoral convoluted mastermind villain.
You know, this isn’t better, but Harry could have been the dad. Norman could have still been obsessed with the kids & raising them as his heirs, but it would remove him/Gwen’s gross stuff.
I think it would have been more believable that Gwen would sleep with Harry Osborn more than Norman.
This is what drives me insane, because it would have made the most sense. Yeah, the story would have still been crap, but not _icky_ crap. Peter was distant while Harry was needy. Gwen could have been compelled in a moment of weakness to sleep with him. It would still have been character assassination, but not in the ridiculous levels the actual comic gets up to.
that's what I was thinking. Why is Norman Osborne number 2 on the list of characters who could've fathered Gwen Stacy's children? How does anyone think like that?
Still would’ve shown us the green goblins ohh face
@@chaosbringer82 Honestly just sounds like the guy's own fantasy. Old man + young girl, or whatever.
That panel of Norman's sex face is possibly the most cursed panel in comic book history. No one ever needed to see that.
Jill Stacey ran for the hills when she realized everyone that gets near Peter Parker is freaking cursed!
17:25 Apparently Peter failed to understand that doctor-patient confidentiality doesn't apply to visitors and that doctors have to comply with subpoenas and discovery requests. It _does_ apparently prevent a doctor from providing testimony though. Course, all this depends on jurisdiction.
Imagine that Quesada said that Peter having kids is a mistake, And the new Ultimate Universe has Peter having Twins, and looking old
Why did Quesada think people would care about Peter having sex out of Wedlock!?
Who would give a shit about two college students having sex while dating?!
Conservative religious people.
Leave it to Spider-Man to have some of the best and worst stories told in comic books.
I'd love to see Sony try to adapt this story.
That last part is like asking for Marvel to undo One More Day, it's never gonna happen because they hate us.
If they truly hate us, they'll adapt this into Sony's filmography.
@@DiamondBatToons Sony wouldn't turn a hated comic book into a movie because they hate us?
@@CaptainCat101 honestly knowing sony i wouldn't be surprise if they adapt this storyline into a movie.
@@DiamondBatToonsThat sentence didn't make any sense lmao
The more time goes on, the more I miss apricate Nick Spencer's time on Spider-Man, and I was always a fan when it was being put out. JMS being tied Sin's Past and One More Day, with context knowing what he wanted to do, and what he didn't, made his tenure still really strong, even with Spider-Totems, Inheritors, The Other mixed in there.
It sucks Spencer's run wasn't respected by the subsequent writers and now we have the current run.
Spider-totems were awesome. Sins past and OMD are obviously bad but since it was Quesada's fault I don't count those against him, and the mystical stuff he did with spider-totems and inheritors aren't a mark against him, they're a positive part of his time
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Totems are a very, very controversial part of the fandom. The reason people don't like Spider-Totems is because it goes against one of the themes of Spider-Man: "Anyone can wear the mask."
Peter is no longer an ordinary person who was randomly given powers and decided to use them to do good out of his own normal heart, he was a Chosen Special One by the Spider-God and you cannot be a Spider-Man without being a special chosen(as seen with Ezekiel). If you do not have a special golden heart etc, you cannot be Spider-Man. No one can do everything Peter does, Peter has the strong willpower to do stuff because he's the chosen etc etc.
@@flerken4233
Maybe a hot take, but I've never really liked the whole anyone can wear the mask idea anyway, we've seen plenty of other characters get powers and not be as much of a hero as Peter and even do bad with their abilities, Peter is Spider-Man cause he understands the responsibility that comes with it
@@mikemorro140 That's a problem of misinterpretation. What "anyone can wear the mask" really means is that anyone has the potential to be a hero. Yeah, a lot of people do badly, but that's because of personal choice and not because there's an external force impeding them. That's the entire message: it's not your race, gender, species, upbringing, wealth or fate what makes you a hero, it's your choices. This whole thing loses all meaning when it's "revealed" you were secretly "the chosen one" all along.
"...despite the fact that he jump at least 100 ft in the rain directly onto the moving truck which he clung to with his fingertips."
I don't know man, sounds like an average Joe to me 🤷
"Comic books are weird, people!" - Linkara
And sometimes confusing
@@comixproviderftw_02 To say the least!
@@The_Acolyte_of_Spider-Man Yep!
@@The_Acolyte_of_Spider-Man Thanks
It is more painful if you're a big Spidey fan or even worse if you are a big fan of Spider-Man blue but well it's been retconed
I loved Spider Man Blue so much as a kid. I reread it recently and it's still so good and timeless.
Spider-Man Blue is awful. I'm glad it was retconned. Now we just need The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man to get retconned and the world will be just.
@@thegoodwitchluzura goddamn this is a nuclear take
There is also a Story where Peter is apparently actually Aunt May's SON.
As in one story she slept with Ben and Richard. May gets pregnant........but here's the kicker. Ben can't have kids, so the baby May had was....... Peter Parker she gave him to Richard and Mary to raise until they die
Yeah, but that was thrown out right away.
There's a reason nobody cares to remember Trouble.
And it's, yet again, all because of Joe Quesada.
That still could be canonical to the Ultimate Universe, as Trouble was set in the UU. It never was set in the main universe, as the ages don't line up.
@@flerken4233but Aunt May was in her early 50s in that universe so that still doesn't make any sense since their age in Trouble was in the 17-19 range
I dunno, even after Spencer fixed this I think OMD and BND are the kings of this particular crap mountain.
11:35 Would Peter have even wanted to continue being with Gwen if he had found out about the affair before she died? Then again, that’s way too much brain power wasted on this disgusting story.
5:00 Peter, clinging to the side of the truck as he makes his getaway: "NO-ONE WILL *EVER KNOW*!!!"
Best of luck with Sins Rising! If possible it'd be really nice if you could shine a light on Harry's arc in JMD's Spectacular 178-200 run since despite being a landmark story, the lack of republication outside of two issues has meant it's severely overlooked, and I think that may have led to no one checking the details in the rush to backpeddle from OMD...like entire characterizations and the whole reason the story happens...
'The most hated Spider-Man comic, no, not that one."
One of the most hated Spider-Man comic, that is...
Green goblins oh face had me dead 14:30
5:10 "I'm pretty sure I did a good job keeping my identity a secret"
proceeds to do ridiculously high jumps and flips
wait, if MJ knew about Gwen's affair how would the retcon in Sins Rising be possible? I guess that's gonna come up in part 2
Mysterio hypnotised MJ to think that the story of the affair was true.
Imagine how funny it would be to show… let’s say the cast of Spectacular Spider-Man the panel that showed Gwen’s affair with Norman.
Given that Harry guilt tripped Gwen into staying with him, he’d probably dump her on the spot. Meanwhile Captain Stacy is going to quickly shoot down a returning Norman as quick as Stan Smith gunned down Peter Griffin.
Hell if we showed this to the cast of the 2017 cartoon. That show’s Harry is going to channel his inner Ryuji.
I never knew it was THIS BAD
12:50
I love how Quesada's fixation on why the story was out of his comfort zone was because of the whole "spider-man having unprotected sex out of wedlock" and not once mentioning, y'know, *the fact that this story would have spider-man attracted to one of his own illegitimate children* .
The one thing that Sins Past solidified is that Green Goblin will always be Spider-Man's most personal antagonist. It's bad enough that Goblin was the first antagonist to figure out Spider-Man's identity and being able to attack him directly and indirectly and not only kill Gwen Stacy, but he assaults her taking her virginity in the process. That's so evil. It's so sad how Gwen Stacy's character was treated in this story.
The fact that Quesada concern was that it was out of WEDLOCK and not that it was INCEST is so messed up.
‘Sin’s Past’ reminds me of SML’s ‘Rich Joseph’ where it devalues and retcons everything that made a popular character iconic
I like videos like this. The creative, or non-creative corporate greed behind the decisions on what we end up reading is always interesting.
When I was first curious about getting into mainstream comics, I picked up an issue of Amazing Spider-Man.
It was #512, Sins Past Part Four.
Imagine for a moment that this is the year you've seen the second Spider-Man movie released and enjoyed both of them enough to actually buy a Spider-Man comic for the first time in your life.
And it's Sins Past part 4, the one with Peter imagining Norman Osborn fucking his girlfriend and Norman's O-face.
It was years before I wanted to pick up another Marvel comic book.
Did Joe Q know Flash existed with Wally West who dated, got married, snd had kids and it never ruined the story nor Wally's relationship with his fans?
Also, would this story have been better in Peter had been the father? It would certainly be less creepy?
He’d probably just claim that this is why DC Comics will be forever inferior to Marvel Comics.
This is one instance where Wuesada had a point Imo- Peter having kids looking the Exact Same Age Range as him just seems too wild & would’ve made him appear far older to readers ( he’d need to be about 50-ish).
22:05 So like BNHA's quirk-destroying drug bullets?
Fun fact, it was later retconned Gabriel and Sarah were like, artificial beings created by Harry to get revenge on Peter and his dad
Yes, that is what the end of the video says lol
Yeah, I commented that before I got to the end. Comics are WEIRD@@ComicDrake
Sins past doesn’t exist, it never did, and if it’s ever brought up again, it wasn’t
15:24 working from memory, there are at least two other instances (other than Paul Stacy) where the exact scenario was played, with someone falling from the bridge and Spider-Man thinking that "he run this scenario thousands of times in his head so he won't let it happen again". One during the clone saga where he saves the Gwen Stacy Clone by swinging instead of webbing her, and one during the MK Spider-Man, saving MJ by webbing her in a bunch of places in her body, so the impact won't kill her or something. Understandable that writers would try something like this, but for anyone who has read enough Spider-Man it's very tyring.
Awesome video! I always knew about the story but not in full detail as well as the spin-offs it had. Also did you tease that you are going to talk about DK Strikes back with that pic in the beginning? That would be a fun vid!
I hope you can continue this by going over the Kindred saga one day
I'm very much only on the edge of comic discussions, but I would've assumed the title of "Most hated Spider-Man comic" would've been One More Day
I once had someone tell me that the surest sign of a Superman story being bad is how OOC Lois Lane is written. I think that also applies to Mary Jane in Spidey stories.
This is one of the few times I remember going through a kind of cognitive dissonance and working through it, right at the comic book store. So I pick up the book, flip it open, and BOOM!!! First page, THE VERY FIRST PAGE I open to is Green Goblin's "O-face". It was like the world STOPPED right there for a few minutes. I remember almost every thought I had in vivid detail:
"WHAT??!!?! Nooooo...."
"Why?! How'd we get here??! I need to know..."
"No! No I don't! What're you talking about?!"
It went on like this in my head for some time. Then I had like this revelation: "You know, just because you like Spiderman, doesn't mean you gotta buy EVERYTHING that says Spiderman on it." Even though I knew that consciously, finally saying it to myself caused this weight to be lifted from my shoulders as a fan.
Drake, I have never read Sins Past and Sin Remembered, but from the plot synopsises that you gave from both, they sound really truly awful, and bad. I'm glad I have never read it. I'm mind boggled, that Joe Quesada thought it was okay to have the writer J. Michael Strazinski have it be Norman and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant resulting in fraternal twins! This is worse if Peter and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant and had even one baby. As if Peter and Gwen having sex(while they were in college mind you) would have been so horrible. They were in a relationship at least! This is sick and wrong. I just started reading Spider-Man comics few years ago when I found Back To Basics from 2018-2019 written by Nick Spencer and drawn by Ryan Ottley. I really enjoyed their run on Spider-Man, but I wasn't aware J. Michael Strazinski ever wrote any of the comics. I know he created Babylon 5 back in the 90's, but I can't fathom why this story and it's sequel exist. I'm truly offended this got written and published.
"The devil did it," and "it was Normon Osborn" are the worst plot twists that continue to plague Spiderman
I just learned that JMS's first name is Joseph
I'm so happy Nick Spencer retconned this in his Spider-Man comics
Thank you for covering this also good to see a new video! Really miss Peter as a science teacher.
Ever think about doing something X-Men related? Been getting really into them lately
16:14 the art is really cool but if you told me the story behind it I'd be like "...... What?"
New camera? looks smooth! also great video Drake! We need more invincible content.
Hey there. Here is an idea for a video topic that would be completely up your alley: Agents of Atlas. During the period between the gold and silver age (between Timely and Marvel) Atlas Comics had a few superhero-esque characters. The characters debuted as a team in "What If" in 1979 and in 2006 they brought into the main universe with miniseries. I have done a search on TH-cam and there really isn't any good videos on this team.
Whqt makes Spiderman special is the fact that Peter is a regular dude, he has a normal family a normal job, and often struggles with his finances. It makes perfect sense for him to have made some mistakes in his personal life in the past, like having kida out of wedlock. And honestly, the only good reason for not letting Peter have kids is that he just can't afford it, as he's either a public school teacher or underpaid researcher, and also because being Spiderman doesn't allow him the time to properly raise a child.
19:12 “SpongeBob! :)”
“Donkey!”
Honestly people would still be able to connect with Spider Man regardless if he’s older or not, so it would’ve been fine if they were made to be Peter’s kids.🐱
"Connection" isn't the issue.
9:47 Here is something I always wondered. Why didn’t Norman just tell them Peter and Spidey were one and the same? They find out anyways so it doesn’t matter.
Hell cut out that stuff in the rain and have them attack Peter in costume it would make moments like we can kill then whenever scarier.
The retcon was difficult and messy, but they did fix it.
I would say that One More Day is still the worst Spider-Man book with the worst, most long-lasting repercussions but yeah, Sins Past was horrible. I had no interest in reading Sins Remembered but it sounds even worse. AND this video confirms that Joe Quesada remains Spider-Man's one, true arch-nemesis.
Wow I really thought Nick Lowe was really the worst. Joe Quesada really is the worst, isn’t he?
In his defense, Joe Quesada said he did it for understandable marketing reasons, while wrong in his judgement. Nick Lowe saying he doesn’t feel like Spider-Man should grow up because he doesn’t agree Peter should progress as a character makes him worse in that degree.
One of the few times Marvel immediately walked back on a retcon 😂 with a follow up story basically reducing Sin's Past to a prank by Norman lol
"Fans wouldnt like it if their hero got old!"
Meanwhile Goku is a grand father and fans still love him
To be fair,Goku is a bad example.
Dude barely ages(partly because he is an alien,partly because he is...well dead for substantial amounts of time).
If anything,Goku mentally regressed(thanks Super).
JoJo would have been a better example.
oh this one....Sin's past happened to be the first comic book I picked up at newsstand. The story was controversial to be least. I did find it interesting of what became of Gabriel and Sarah.
I'm having ptsd of this comic run on all the negative stuff.
that rapid aging thing never made sense to me
the goblin serum never turned norman into an old fucking man. Why would it make the kids grow up really really fast?
It was unrelated. There's a real syndrome that causes people to age faster, though I don't think it quite works as neatly as this, and that was always a part of the story, even when Peter was supposed to be the dad. They just happened to have it.
Look Sins Past is bad.
At least J. Michael Straczynski completely redeemed himself with the 2000's Thor run and being a co-writer for the first Thor screenplay in 2011.
Just another comic Marvel tries to forget happened...
I'm really hoping we get a part 2 to this video soon
Unfortunately, not soon. I have a couple more Marvel videos in the works, but I want to try to cover some other publishers. Marvel has been such a huge focus that I'm getting a little burnt out.
@@ComicDrake That makes sense! I wish you the best of luck on the next few videos! You'll get to it when you can
I hope the original pitch of peter's abandoned twins gets explored in an elseworld story, That seems to be more interesting than what whatever this
Holy hell dude I knew abut the kids existing but all tha after with the followup.. wow. Yet another ridiculously in depth deep dive into some of the wierdest unknown history of comics. Great stuff once again.
2:39 I want to see those things get adapted into a faithful animated series
Bro forgot one more day
This was the first Spider-Man comic I ever read back in the first or second grade and sadly the Green Goblin's O face has lived rent free in the back of my mind...
Looking back on it I wondered why the hell this was in the school library then I remembered oh right colorful superhero comic
After reading this story for the first time I thought of something. It wouldn´t make the story good, but maybe just a bit better. What if Gabriel and Sarah were Gwen and Harry Osborn kids, instead of Norman. At least, that way we don´t have that huge age gap.
And if you still want to say that they grow up so fast, maybe Norman used a version of the Goblin serum with them after they were born and Gwen died.
I’m happy to see you back.
00:12 "Generic white guy with glasses"
Yeah, but you are OUR generic white guy with glasses
We need Nick Spencer one more time like the return of the Avatar that brings balance to the world and retcon Zeb Wells’ character assassination on MJ.
You know it’s a bad comic when Spider-man threatening a cop’s family is barely even noteworthy
With all the good and bad stories about this guy, you think it’s an obligation to write Peter having a bad life after he gets he’s act together and begins to be happy
When Spider-Man editorial squeezing the blood out of every stone they find
Quesada looking at a best selling book: "Oh no, it won't sell"
Thank god sins past retconned out of existence as of late, because holy shit sins past as a story did so much damage to Gwen Stacy character at marvel comics that i wasn't even funny but just sad depressing and just proves my point more and more that marvel really hates Peter parker Spider-Man being happy at least in my opinion.
19:09 KANEDA! TETSUO! KHAN!
Huh? You make it sound like it would have been better if Quesada hadn't interfered and let Peter be the father of the twins instead of Norman... that would have been a POS as well... In fact I think it would have been far worse.
As much as I look forward to you discussing the equally absurd Nick Spencer retcon, I realize that'll put you in dangerous proximity to the Zeb Wells run...
*shudders*
This story literally makes me feel sick
I’ve learned to rarely get mad over shot in comics, and even when I did, it was nothing ridiculous.
But THIS…this ACTUALLY pissed me off.
For everything else stated, as well as how it took Gwen’s character and just threw it in the trash.
Sad park is I actually loved MDJs artwork in this 🤷♂️
~_~
This should just prove that Norman Osborn is pure evil and doesn’t deserve redemption but that it revealed Harry was behind all of this which proves that he is the toxic human being on the planet and Peter deserves a better friend than him.
Ironically the only Norman that got a proper redemption was the one from the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.
@@uncannydcmarvelous5732which he also doesn’t deserve
No one deserves redemption.