As long as the rules allow a competitor to bypass the standing game, there will be limits to what can be gained. If the opponent is known to be very strong in stand up, there is no need to engage.
It's very difficult to force standing in bjj without just taking points from people for sitting. It would need to be the equivalent of a takedown for points. We should also maybe score takedowns more highly.
@@gregortheoverlander4122 Maybe bjj should start penalizing guard pulls the same amount of points gained for takedowns and introduce more points for takedowns that transition straight into a dominant position (mount, side control) and bypass the guard completely.
@@aznkane87 ADCC has some complicated rules where if you pull guard you lose a point but I think in the finals that doesn't apply or something like that. People complain that high level matches become just two guys pushing each other but I think it's a step in the right direction
@@gregortheoverlander4122 You people are trying to turn BJJ into wrestling or judo. If you add a bunch of takedowns, you're going to add a bunch of injuries. BJJ schools wouldn't have anybody over thirty years old in them; and many persons under thirty would quit as well because they have jobs and families and can't afford to tear their bodies apart doing martial arts. I mean, I absolutely think some takedowns should be taught and practiced in BJJ, but it's a blessing in disguise that modern BJJ is 99% ground game.
@@profd65 I think this is an odd stance to take. I train Judo with 50-60 year old dudes and they can still take full force throws plenty well. If bodies are getting torn up in a Judo class, its probably because 1.) people are muscling things too much and 2.) people are not practicing/being taught how to properly fall. While agree that competitively people will age out of Judo, we could also say that about competitive video games. But recreationally there is not any reason a person can't train Judo well into their later life. A lot of big Japanese names were training basically until the died. I don't think its healthy for BJJ that there is this extreme specialization. It simply is not a holistic martial art. BJJ isn't alone in that challange, of course, Judo focuses far too much on a particular stand up game. These are both great examples of when you let competition rule sets define the identity of your martial art rather than the other way around. Martial arts need to be allowed to innovate on themselves and then the rules change in response to those innovations.
check out the original interview here - th-cam.com/video/M18aGqj-90A/w-d-xo.html here's another great interview - th-cam.com/video/b09nRoYGU-U/w-d-xo.html
Danaher is correct about sports changing the focus of training, but sport BJJ rewards unrealistic, unsafe, risky behavior just as much as IJF Judo and American wrestling. As a Judoka, IJF judo rules are garbage for self defense, allows you to land in bad positions if you're playing BJJ rules, takes away any technique involving grabbing of the legs/pants etc. BUT if you are only training for the sport part of ANY martial art or not sparring near 100% NOTHING WILL BE EFFECTIVE. Sitting to guard is a sport only technique. Jumping to guard is a sport only technique. Daki Age throw is banned in sport BJJ, with good reason it's a huge concussion risk. How many BJJ classes start with Ukemi practice?
to be fair, the ijf leg grab ban makes the fighters stand upright, and that is, apparently, much better fir fighting compared to the crouched over stance. But with any combat sport, the rules are going to favour certain behaviours that arent realistic. thats no an issue as long as you just dont do those behaviours in real life
Only freestyle doesn’t emphasise control and rewards risk , folkstyle is based on control and you get the same number of points no matter how big the takedown is
Everything is sports specific. Once Jiu-Jitsu became almost exclusively sportive in nature the gig was up. You will almost never ever learn how to defend against kicks, punches, knife/club attacks, rear chokes, how to do the proper take downs and throws, etc. Everything is starting on the ground. Coaches and gym owners won't tell you the dirty secret. It's about safety and MONEY. By starting on your knees or in guard or mount, you can fit a hundred students in a small room, especially in live sparring. When you're starting standing there has to be much fewer students for safety and spacing. That equals a lot less $$$$ especially when gyms charge 100 to 150$ a student per month!? The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu system incorporated all of the martial art aspects for beginner's fundamentals. Athletes and sportive Jiu-Jitsu competitors are much better athletes but the martial art fundamentals has definitely gone downhill since the 20th century when the Gracies brought the art to American mainstream.
Pfff, sounds like you've watched a lot of Gracie jiu-jitsu videos. Do you think a BJJ purple belt in "sport" jiu-jitsu would have any trouble beating up the average guy? Do you think he'd have any trouble beating up some Wing Chung dork with a ponytail? I'm sorry: I don't. Unless there's a very large difference in size or age, all my money will be on the purple belt in "sport" jiu-jitsu. Of course, fighting in the street is completely foolish--there's a high likelihood of getting stabbed or going to jail regardless of which martial art you practice. As far as "everything starting on the ground" goes, if you add a bunch of takedowns to BJJ, you'll add a bunch of injuries. It's important to learn and practice some takedowns, but it's a good thing that they play a relatively small role in BJJ.
Solution: Don't start standing up. Personally I always start standing up and my opponent can start sitting down if they want. But I'm not going to sit down for them unless they specifically request it because they want to practice guard passing. If you want to combine takedowns and takedown defense, strikes, submissions, submisssion defense, etc, then MMA is the best choice really.
I don't see what's wrong with his logic? He said that wrestling will be an important source for BJJ takedowns. Or maybe I misunderstood and you're talking about the interviewer.
@@zyphos9444 John Danaher has masterful linguistic skills. With these skills he artfully constructed an argument that subtly discounts the value of wrestling in the GI and No Gi environs. 1. He confuses the rule set focuses of the 3 major wrestling styles. 2. He doesn't take into account that Judo is the base of BJJ and how that effects BJJs strengths and weaknesses. 3. He ignores the fact that BJJ is a money sport so you cant put the masses through wrestling workouts at you're gonna lose too many students. 4. He doesnt take into account the Takedowns take 3-4 years for even a wrestler to master. So yeah BJJ folks can keep teaching eachother "takedowns" but it wont matter, you're going to meet a wrestler in competition and get owned on your feet. The best way to learn takedowns is to takedown wrestlers. Lions dont learn to hunt by training with Jackals.
@@genepatino9856 1. His thoughts in regard to bjj competition, because that's all that matters. 2. It came from judo, but they're two different things now. 3. He's running a martial arts academy to get athletes as good as possible, he doesn't care about... lazy average people? Idk what that has to do with the conversation, if someone doesn't want to train hard, they don't have to compete
@@genepatino9856 1) There are tons of wrestlers ad judokas in bjj schools and clubs. If bjj academies start working on takedowns, the students will have plenty of opportunities to work takedowns with wrestlers. and 2) bjj isn't just about being a sport, it's also a martial art that is supposed to be concerned with self-defense. If competition falls more in line with building skills important for real-world self-defense scenarios, students will benefit immensely by working on standing skills even if they aren't as good as wrestlers. Which leads to my final point, 3) even for the sport aspect, it's irrelevant if bjj practitioners are worse than wrestlers because they're not going to be competing in wrestling, they're going to be competing in their own sport.
As long as the rules allow a competitor to bypass the standing game, there will be limits to what can be gained. If the opponent is known to be very strong in stand up, there is no need to engage.
It's very difficult to force standing in bjj without just taking points from people for sitting. It would need to be the equivalent of a takedown for points. We should also maybe score takedowns more highly.
@@gregortheoverlander4122 Maybe bjj should start penalizing guard pulls the same amount of points gained for takedowns and introduce more points for takedowns that transition straight into a dominant position (mount, side control) and bypass the guard completely.
@@aznkane87 ADCC has some complicated rules where if you pull guard you lose a point but I think in the finals that doesn't apply or something like that. People complain that high level matches become just two guys pushing each other but I think it's a step in the right direction
@@gregortheoverlander4122 You people are trying to turn BJJ into wrestling or judo. If you add a bunch of takedowns, you're going to add a bunch of injuries. BJJ schools wouldn't have anybody over thirty years old in them; and many persons under thirty would quit as well because they have jobs and families and can't afford to tear their bodies apart doing martial arts. I mean, I absolutely think some takedowns should be taught and practiced in BJJ, but it's a blessing in disguise that modern BJJ is 99% ground game.
@@profd65 I think this is an odd stance to take. I train Judo with 50-60 year old dudes and they can still take full force throws plenty well. If bodies are getting torn up in a Judo class, its probably because 1.) people are muscling things too much and 2.) people are not practicing/being taught how to properly fall.
While agree that competitively people will age out of Judo, we could also say that about competitive video games. But recreationally there is not any reason a person can't train Judo well into their later life. A lot of big Japanese names were training basically until the died.
I don't think its healthy for BJJ that there is this extreme specialization. It simply is not a holistic martial art. BJJ isn't alone in that challange, of course, Judo focuses far too much on a particular stand up game. These are both great examples of when you let competition rule sets define the identity of your martial art rather than the other way around. Martial arts need to be allowed to innovate on themselves and then the rules change in response to those innovations.
Is there any chance you can post or send the Garry tonon / Gordon Ryan blue basement Instagram live?
I would like to hear Roger more
check out the original interview here - th-cam.com/video/M18aGqj-90A/w-d-xo.html
here's another great interview - th-cam.com/video/b09nRoYGU-U/w-d-xo.html
Samuel L Danaher.
Danaher is correct about sports changing the focus of training, but sport BJJ rewards unrealistic, unsafe, risky behavior just as much as IJF Judo and American wrestling. As a Judoka, IJF judo rules are garbage for self defense, allows you to land in bad positions if you're playing BJJ rules, takes away any technique involving grabbing of the legs/pants etc. BUT if you are only training for the sport part of ANY martial art or not sparring near 100% NOTHING WILL BE EFFECTIVE.
Sitting to guard is a sport only technique. Jumping to guard is a sport only technique. Daki Age throw is banned in sport BJJ, with good reason it's a huge concussion risk.
How many BJJ classes start with Ukemi practice?
to be fair, the ijf leg grab ban makes the fighters stand upright, and that is, apparently, much better fir fighting compared to the crouched over stance. But with any combat sport, the rules are going to favour certain behaviours that arent realistic. thats no an issue as long as you just dont do those behaviours in real life
Only freestyle doesn’t emphasise control and rewards risk , folkstyle is based on control and you get the same number of points no matter how big the takedown is
Modify judo throws so that they can't take your back after an ippon or botched attempt.
Imo BJJers just need to become footsweep god's
Not in a rash guard?!
Rash guard is under the jacket ,for sure .
Its a modern Gi
He looks weird when not in a rashguard
Q:And maybe standing submissions?
I know nothing , it’s a question.
I guess that’s what he is saying.
Everything is sports specific. Once Jiu-Jitsu became almost exclusively sportive in nature the gig was up. You will almost never ever learn how to defend against kicks, punches, knife/club attacks, rear chokes, how to do the proper take downs and throws, etc. Everything is starting on the ground. Coaches and gym owners won't tell you the dirty secret. It's about safety and MONEY. By starting on your knees or in guard or mount, you can fit a hundred students in a small room, especially in live sparring. When you're starting standing there has to be much fewer students for safety and spacing. That equals a lot less $$$$ especially when gyms charge 100 to 150$ a student per month!? The Gracie Jiu-Jitsu system incorporated all of the martial art aspects for beginner's fundamentals. Athletes and sportive Jiu-Jitsu competitors are much better athletes but the martial art fundamentals has definitely gone downhill since the 20th century when the Gracies brought the art to American mainstream.
Pfff, sounds like you've watched a lot of Gracie jiu-jitsu videos. Do you think a BJJ purple belt in "sport" jiu-jitsu would have any trouble beating up the average guy? Do you think he'd have any trouble beating up some Wing Chung dork with a ponytail? I'm sorry: I don't. Unless there's a very large difference in size or age, all my money will be on the purple belt in "sport" jiu-jitsu. Of course, fighting in the street is completely foolish--there's a high likelihood of getting stabbed or going to jail regardless of which martial art you practice.
As far as "everything starting on the ground" goes, if you add a bunch of takedowns to BJJ, you'll add a bunch of injuries. It's important to learn and practice some takedowns, but it's a good thing that they play a relatively small role in BJJ.
Solution: Don't start standing up. Personally I always start standing up and my opponent can start sitting down if they want. But I'm not going to sit down for them unless they specifically request it because they want to practice guard passing.
If you want to combine takedowns and takedown defense, strikes, submissions, submisssion defense, etc, then MMA is the best choice really.
The longer BJJ athletes think along this guy's logic, the longer Wrestlers will dominate on the feet.
I don't see what's wrong with his logic? He said that wrestling will be an important source for BJJ takedowns. Or maybe I misunderstood and you're talking about the interviewer.
@@zyphos9444 John Danaher has masterful linguistic skills. With these skills he artfully constructed an argument that subtly discounts the value of wrestling in the GI and No Gi environs. 1. He confuses the rule set focuses of the 3 major wrestling styles. 2. He doesn't take into account that Judo is the base of BJJ and how that effects BJJs strengths and weaknesses. 3. He ignores the fact that BJJ is a money sport so you cant put the masses through wrestling workouts at you're gonna lose too many students. 4. He doesnt take into account the Takedowns take 3-4 years for even a wrestler to master. So yeah BJJ folks can keep teaching eachother "takedowns" but it wont matter, you're going to meet a wrestler in competition and get owned on your feet. The best way to learn takedowns is to takedown wrestlers. Lions dont learn to hunt by training with Jackals.
@@genepatino9856 1. His thoughts in regard to bjj competition, because that's all that matters. 2. It came from judo, but they're two different things now. 3. He's running a martial arts academy to get athletes as good as possible, he doesn't care about... lazy average people? Idk what that has to do with the conversation, if someone doesn't want to train hard, they don't have to compete
@@genepatino9856 although i agree with every aspect of your points, your animal metaphore makes you sound like a moron
@@genepatino9856 1) There are tons of wrestlers ad judokas in bjj schools and clubs. If bjj academies start working on takedowns, the students will have plenty of opportunities to work takedowns with wrestlers. and 2) bjj isn't just about being a sport, it's also a martial art that is supposed to be concerned with self-defense. If competition falls more in line with building skills important for real-world self-defense scenarios, students will benefit immensely by working on standing skills even if they aren't as good as wrestlers. Which leads to my final point, 3) even for the sport aspect, it's irrelevant if bjj practitioners are worse than wrestlers because they're not going to be competing in wrestling, they're going to be competing in their own sport.