5 Things Dragonbane Does Better than D&D | Bronze Dragon Inn
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2023
- Bronze Dragon Inn is a new show where Critical Role writer, Dimension 20 alum, Acquisitions Incorporated Cast member, Seattle by Night vamp and Battle 4 Beyond DM Jasmine "ThatBronzeGirl" Bhullar breaks down icks, tips and musings about Dungeons and Dragons and other TTRPGs. Today, we're talking about mechanics Dragonbane handles better than D&D and a few you can house rule into ANY game you're running at your table right now.
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The opposed rolls in Dragonbane are just about the only time we do math at the table. The players still try to roll under their skill to succeed, however,, the winner is based on who has the greatest difference between their skill and their roll. (Ex. PC and NPC are arm wrestling. PC has a STR of 15 and rolls a 13 the NPC has a STR 18 and rolls a 17. The PC would win because they have a difference of 2 as opposed to the NPC's difference of 1.) This made more sense to us than the "lower than or equal to" rule in the book.
Amazing ruling! Much better than the pure luck based lower roll always wins.
As long as a Dragon still beats a non-dragon roll this can work. I played Mythras (a D100 system) where this was the case, but to be honest my players and I thought it was a bit clunky that you had to roll super low or high but still a success - I actually prefer the always just roll as low as possible rule in Dragonbane. Simpler to understand. Mathwise a person with a higher skill will still outshine a lesser skilled opponent in the opposing rolls for the majority of rolls.
This is how the GURPS ‘contest of skills’ works, whomever makes the role by the most wins. I could see this being a bit more annoying when using a D100 system. Much easier for most people on a 3d6 range.
What if they both roll under by the same amount? ;)
@@MrBottlecapBill A tie means nobody won.
The card based initiative and the shift ideas are standard in most of Free League's games.
I'll have to take a peek at some others!
The shift idea was stolen from TSR's Marvel Superheroes published around '87.
Do Shadowdark next! I've been running it weekly for a couple of months, and it's difficult going back to D&D after having so much fun with it! It fixes so many gripes I have about 5e.
I'll look into it!
Yes please! The Shadowdark kickstarter books should be arriving this month so would be good timing :) . Also, I just discovered this channel, brilliant.
+1 for your view of Shadowdark.
+3 for an in-depth look at Shadowdark. =) @@ThatBronzeGirl
@@ThatBronzeGirl I have heard only good things about Shadowdark.
Hello and welcome old and new patrons of the Bronze Dragon Inn. If this is your first time in you can catch the first episode here: th-cam.com/video/FpLA6xMxg8c/w-d-xo.html ! I've also got a video up about Pendragon since it's mentioned in this video. If you like Dragonbane, I think you might take a shine to Pendragon
Just a small note: In Dragonbane you can't parry the attack of a Dragon. Or any other monsters attack, really (unless it's explicitly stated that the attack is an exemption to the rule; you can but dodge out of the way).
But your point still stands, you have the same chance to parry an orcish warchief as you have with their goblin hierling.
Also, hard agree on the opposed rolls. Was probably the most discussed mechanic during beta-testing and in the end I think a majority was still a bit dissatisfied with the rule. But like you mentioned, opposed rolls are uncommon in the system.
Overall a great rundown of both some of the strengths, neat features and some of the weaknesses of the system. 👏
I’ve never really understood the thematic reasons for prepared spells. If we treat spellcasting like cooking there are some recipes that you know by heart, you don’t even have to measure because you have made it so many times. Then with some recipes you need to look at the recipe just to make sure you are making it right. Have a few spells that you know by heart and all the rest of the spells that you have scrolls for, or have added to your spell book, you have to look at to make sure you cast it right.
I love your comparison to cooking. For people who may be scrolling by, magic in D&D was conceptually different. It was very much not like a cooking recipe. It's called Vancian magic because it was based off a fantasy author from the time. I haven't read his books so I can't comment too much here but thematically it might be more beneficial to imagine a wizard spending their downtime poring over their spellbook and inscribing detailed runes onto their arm. Then as they cast, the runes disappear and the spellslot is gone until they have sufficient downtime (a long rest) to reinscribe the runes. It doesn't matter if they "know the recipe" by heart as they only had a finite number of spells in the tank. I like this imagining because it still works well with how Dragonbane does magic because the wizard could be furiously rescrawling the runes during that extra turn of casting time. It's just very much not intuitive to how we think of magic based on all of the fantasy media we've consumed over the last 50 years since D&D has come out.
D&D magic is also a legacy of 1st edition's wargaming roots; it was the equivalent of the WW2 bazooka team only having so many rockets and was intended as a way to simplify pick-up games by giving the wizard's player a much shorter list of things to read. In those early days, if my uncle's stories are to be believed, having the GM design all the characters to fit the story and then handing them off to people who didn't know the rules all that well was almost the default way to play, and a magic-user could very, very quickly get into analysis paralysis with all the spell options.
Think of a prepared spell as a spell that's been half-cast and is just waiting for the final trigger. Scrolls are basically spell slots constructed outside your brain that do the same thing, and Rituals are what happens when you don't skip over the spell preparation part of the day in the narration. And Contingency is where you actually do complete the casting but contain the spell in stasis until a new and custom trigger is satisfied.
Of course, that analogy (and it is just an analogy; there are other lore things going on that complicate the full explanation substantially) works better in 3.5/PF where particular spells are prepared into particular spell slots... but it suffices to explain why spell preparation is a concept that makes sense.
Gary Gygax was a fan of Jack Vance, notably the Dying Earth series of novels. That’s where the peculiar idea of storing a spell in your brain and forgetting it upon casting comes from.
It’s been debated from the early days of D&D. I really like how more recent games are requiring rolls to cast magic. I’m also a fan of there being a price for magic, too. That power comes from somewhere, and eventually the rent comes due.
It was always about game balance, and not realism. 5e spellcasting is so broken today because cantrips can be cast an infinite number of time. Why play an archer that has to track arrows, when a spell caster overcomes magical resistance and doesn't have to track arrows?
Imagine how broken a wizard who can cast fireball every turn would be when compared to every melee cast that can only swing a sword twice.
Thematically I agree with you - Someone of higher skill winning an opposed roll if they roll higher while still succeeding makes it feel like it's the additional skill that's made the difference.
But 'low is good, so lowest roll wins' makes a lot of intuitive sense
Oh 100% I just did a video on Pendragon however, so I'm just very invested in "rolling a success while still rolling higher" mindset since it rewards player for having more skill in something vs just getting lucky.
If I have skill 55 and you got skill 28, I can win with a higher roll than you.
MORE Jasmine Bhullar talking about TTRPGs is EXACTLY what I needed in my life! These are some really interesting mechanics. I'll have to look into this "Dragonbane."
As spell preparation goes I've always thought of it as the caster is sort placing a quasi enchantment on themselves, like the caster becomes a living "magic item" with a certain number of "charges" (spell slots) per day, based directly on how powerful a caster they are (character level). I feel like that way of looking at it helps best explain why you can't cast infinite amounts of spells and why you can't cast from your book (for classes that have one). It takes time (Long Rest) to place these "enchantments" on yourself, and then, once done, you can (generally) release them in an instant. But still, I have always liked the idea of wizards being able to cast from their spellbooks!
I would say if you cast from your spell book and take any damage during that same round (especially AOE) you have to save for your book to see if it gets damaged too. Possibly destroyed! The risk of losing a spellbook isn't played upon NEARLY enough in D&D if you ask me! 😈
Feels like it might fit to have the magic user make a concentration check as well. Gives the other party members reason to protect the mage while they cast, and you could give the same ability to NPCs as well. Fighting a big bad whose reading out a spell from their tome and you’ve got to disrupt them before they can cast it.
Always excited to hear what you have to say about other TTRPGs out there!
I've got Dragonbane and Pendragon down; now on to some Warhammer RPG stuff maybe?? Who knows!
@@ThatBronzeGirlyou did Pendragon?! That’s my favorite game ever! Heading over to watch next!
@@ThatBronzeGirl Warhammer is pretty good, but it is time to look at the flagship of D&D development: Old School Essentials or Dolmenwood.
I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on WFRP 4E. Soulbound is similar in tone to 5E (heroic to superheroic fantasy). Even spicier would be getting your take on 40K, maybe Imperium Maledictum.
I like the roll under for contested rolls. If you had a contested roll in a roll over system, and you rolled a 19, you'd feel like you did a better job rolling that someone who got a 10. It's just flipped, and I think it works. You have a much higher chance of succeeding already with a higher skill, and it'd just punish someone harder for not having that skill when it already gave them a much lower chance of success to begin with. It drastically reduces the odds of someone having some dumb luck and managing to get away by the skin of their teeth. It's cool the way they have it 😎
I have to mention my favorite rpg and setting: Dolmenwood. It's basically old school D&D perfected and also with a really cool yet easy to run wilderness survival system. Hunting strange animals of the woods, camping, foraging for herbs and shrooms with meaningful uses etc. It was first a setting but evolved into an amazing system. The Kickstarter ended but it's still pre-orderable.
I'm a fan of Free League as well for their amazing games and high production value. Got the Dragonbane box but yet to try it out.
Dolmenwood could be described as a comfort setting. The aesthetic, the tones, the style... All screams "take a cup of tea and relax here".
@@federerlkonig330 And then there are the horror elements, and political intrigue etc. But it could all be run in a whimsical tone. It has changed from the Wormskins in a cozier direction for sure. Still, plenty of ways for characters to die horrifically 😅 I love it!
@@paavohirn3728 indeed, i love it because it could be played as a whimiscal weird fairy tale, a folk horror, a pseudo arthurian world or whatever!
@@federerlkonig330 Yes! And there's room for different modules. I've used quite a few in my Dolmenwood campaigns over the years. Gavin's own, Barrowmaze etc.
More like a more friendly to newcomers version of Runequest as that is where it originally came from, heck Demons come from the Chaosium, and the Role Under mechanic is from BRP, the original creator of this game worked for Chaosim and wrote for Rune Quest and got permission from Greg Stafford to use the BRP system for his game.
Love to see more people interested in Dragonbane. It's a sort of OSR style game where things like food, torches, resting etc. matter but with some modern mechanics as well. You are 100% spot on with Opposed rolls and I think I'm going to HR it that the higher roll wins for exactly the reason you outlined - succeeding on a 17 means your character is simply better at the thing.
With a roll under system, the player with the biggest difference between their roll and their target number would be the winner.
@@bullseyeonline True, but that requires more math than Dragonbane tends to use.
@@bullseyeonlineCthulhu used an opposed roll matrix. I check my skill of 43 to your skill of 11 and we see what a success is.
The Free League has a Kickstarter for the old world of Dragons and Demons (Drakar och Demoner in Swedish)(Dragonbane) called Altor focusing on the continent of Ereb and the Copper Sea (with the dreaded black pirate ducks).
I do hope it will be released in english :)
It was only about a year ago that I learned that Drakar och Demoner wasnt just a swedish translation of DnD. To be fair, i believe the 80s DnD cartoon was called Drakar och Demoner so its easy to see why I got confused. Havent played Dragonbane, but I love that Fria Ligan worked with Johan Egerkrans again to make the art, his work is amazing!
One of the reasons I backed the kickstarter was his art.
Drakar och Demoner is actually based on runequest but that title is near untranslatable
@@dmeep Runequest = Runsökande.
I don't see the problem! /s
Dragons and Demons is untranslatable?
@@screenmonkey no runequest does not translate well. Hence the renaming
Wow. This is the first time that Bronze popped up for me in well over a year. Boy did WotC drop the ball when they decided to give up having their own 'show.'
Another way to handle opposed rolls - though it does require a little bit of calculating - is the one with the larger margin of success wins. This still gives preference to higher skill levels, but keeps the "roll lower" mechanic and rewards for a lucky roll. So, if you're rolling against a 18 and your opponent is rolling against a 10, even if you rolled a 8 and your opponent rolled a 4 - which your opponent would win in a "roll lower" system - you'd still win because your margin was greater (18-8 = 10 vs 10-4 = 6).
My first time watching one of your videos. Thanks for all those insights. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Symbaroum (not the 5e one). It has different mechanics and a very cool setting.
Been running Drgonbane for my group and they love it. Can't wait for the new DB content next year. Subscribed.
Being a long time Drakar och Demoner player/GM (since 1983), I really love the monster attacks system with the rollable table for the different attacks. I gives a very versatile feeling and a more storytelling like style in combat with monsters.
I love the camping and survival emphasis. This is something I feel has been overlooked from D&D's roots.
In gaming groups where characters have been lost to starvation or exposure, it can really add to the game. The wilderness becomes what it should be in fantasy fiction: dangerous and foreboding. When players really start planning for survival and not just slaughter, immersion increases greatly.
Completely agree with you on opposed rolls.
I even go a little further : if both opponents fail their roll, I consider the highest roll to be the winner of the opposition, possibly with a lower quality of success.
Thanks for telling us about Dragonbane! It sounds interesting!
I really enjoyed the vibe of this video, I will eagerly look forward to seeing more Bronze Dragon Inn 😁
100% agree with the blackjack approach to the "roll under, but roll better" of opposed rolls. 100%. Beautiful take.
First time viewer! Loved this video. You have an amazing voice for delivering this content and you made it all so easy to understand as someone new to Dragonbane! Great explanations and examples, superb editing. Subscribed! Haha :)
It is interesting to hear that in Sweden there were language barrier problems with TSR D&D, while in Finland the game was published translated into Finnish in 1987 (and the legendary Red Box was first translated publication) before TSR decided on a policy that the translation of its products would be prohibited even if Gary Gygax himself had given permission for the local translations.
There was a translation for D&D in Sweden. It did not catch on as well. I think it was the same box.
@@SusCalvin Yep, I think the red box was translated to all the nordic langugae. But it came out in like 1986 and by then dod already had a huge foothold in Sweden. Also the license cost for dnd was huge.
First time watching your channel. Really enjoyed this video. Love your take on opposed rolls, I’ll definitely be stealing that! Thanks
I've been running Dragonbane for two groups, and I find it incredibly refreshing. It's been a joy to run, and the players have really taken to it.
I agree with all of your "better" things (and I'd include a few more, namely the lack of power creep). One thing to note is that round rests are great for any character, not just mages, as heroic abilities (essentially feats) require willpower to use.
BRP characters advance through increasing skill and getting better kit. An experienced CoC PC is better at dodging and driving, owns a magic flute or a BAR and knows a handful of allies and contacts but is not any fleshier.
The writer for Drakar och Demoner was a playtester at Chaosium for Call of Cthulhu and Stormbringer. And in fact the cover art for Drakar och Demoner and Stormbringiner 4th editions used the same cover art. Dragonbane shifts the d100 mechanics closer to a D20 system but keeps the roll under.
Yep, it was bought for a cheap sum from a german company. And since they had several pictures in the same series, they felt that they could use later pictures for later releases. The d20 in Dod came with the expert after the 87 ed. But it was implemetend as a standard in 4th ed from 1991.
Have you tried Whitehack? Roll under but high is a key feature of the Whitehack OSR RPG. Not only does it use that for "opposed rolls" but it also incorporates this into the Armor Class rules so that attack rolls must roll UNDER the attackers "Attack Value" but HIGHER than the opponent's Armor Class. (So AC Values typically range from 0-5 or so). Critical success is rolling the target number exactly, and crit fails are 20. So with a single roll you know if you hit the armor, the monster, crit, failed or fumbled right away. It's so elegant that it makes me want to change every d20 system to be similar.
7:37 Note 5E has per-round initiative as an optional rule, "Speed Factor", which also incorporates modifiers based on the action, weapon or spell, and creature size. This is something of a throwback to earlier editions, which had per-round initiative, though it was for each group, rather than each individual (individual initiative was an optional rule). When the standard initiative procedure changed to individual initiative in 3E, it also no longer was rolled each round. Related, the length of a round changed at the same time from 1 minute to 6 seconds.
The books talk some about why each procedure was chosen (round duration is part of it), so I won't repeat most of it except to say changing initiative each round slows down combat, as the DM has to do more bookkeeping. Cards can be faster than dice, but mostly if the cards have the participants (rather than numbers) and the DM shuffles.
Interesting that Dragonbane allows multiple initiative for some monsters. 1E D&D broke up the round in a similar way for creatures with multiple attacks, interleaving each group's actions. 5E's legendary actions seems a related (though lesser) effect of allowing monsters to take actions (not just a reaction) when it's not their turn.
#2 is an awesome mechanic!! Probably going to include that in my home games too. thanks for talking about this! :)
Yeah, you totally talked me into the higher roll winning the opposed roll,
Imagining short rests during combat. Every PC comes prepared: pillow, blankie, eye mask, white noise machine.
You are assumed to do it right after combat. Short still means ten-twenty minutes.
I like open book tests. If executed properly they require that you can find and understand the material regarding the subject mater and apply it. It gives teachers far more freedom in regard to what questions you may ask of the students over a far wider set of material. It's not just a pointless exercise in short term memory like 90% of the education system.
Dragons and Demons, especially the expert addition was and is an amazing Sword and Sorcery game.
First time your videos are coming across my feed, you had my sub 3 mins in! Fantastic job you're doing! Keep it up!
RIP name - but you did very good describing the swedish RPG history! ;)
Oh wow, first time I've seen this channel and I'm already going to think about adding some Dragonbane ideas to my 5E game as house rules. I love the crit options and the swap initiative rules.... Great stuff and I've been behind the screen for over 40 years.
You should really look at the game itself, it's aweseome.
Aaah, Drakar och Demoner.
11:00 Another option: whoever succeeds by the highest margin wins; ties could go to the lower roll or the higher roll (a case could be made for each). This weights contests towards the one with a higher stat (as they have a greater range of successes), but still allows someone with a lower stat to sometimes win out when both rolls succeed. A roll of 16 under 18 (succeeded by 2) would win out against a roll of 9 under 10 (succeeded by 1), but lose to a roll of 7 under 10 (succeeded by 3).
DoD was inspired by AD&D and RuneQuest, and originally used the BRP license. In BRP, casting from magic points instead of spell slots is normal. A Call of Cthulhu character will have x magic points per day.
D&D at the time of DoD also had procedure and routine for how to move across a region. You had to plan your load and supplies. Since DoD was BRP-based, a lot of things use skill systems.
Roll with initiative/disadvantage is less flexible than the old normal +15% to hit in BRP.
The cards make individual initiative easier to overlook when we all got a card laid out. Some people can mess with it, fighters can hold on to their last card if they liked it.
The setting for Dragonbane is there. But we already know about it from playing the thing for decades. There are other euro RPGs hiding out there. Germany has Dark Eye, Spain has its own and only recently translated mythic-historicsl Aquelarre. There is a language barrier in Europe as well.
You can play a duck and this is good.
How would you house-rule the non-prepared spells?
> just skip a (complete?) turn and cast it next turn
> add any sort of check to ensure you find it (e.g. arcana or concentration)
> add same sort of disadvantage while you're flipping through the pages (e.g. DEX check vs AoR spells) or give advantage to any attacks against the player (Advantage on roll, max damage, or "bardic" inspiration added to the attack roll)?
i like the idea, but it might give even too much power to wizards if not balanced correctly
Opposed roll RAW in Dragonbane is pretty ill thought out, I'd already decided to house rule the higher roll wins, I encountered this method running Delta Green (who I suspect picked it up from Chaosium). It just makes more sense that the higher skilled participant has a better chance of winning the contest
It only took until the 2nd point for me to give this a thumbs up. I'd never considered the possibility of allowing players to take extra time to cast an unprepared spell before. Brilliant idea.
I liked your Pendragon idea for the opposed rolls 👍 It is simpler than the alternative, where we need to calculate which one got a better success: if I roll 3 points under my score and my opponent rolls 4 points under theirs, then they win.
I would apply something similar to the parrying too. Rather based on the enemy's actual roll, than on their stat.
I feel like the initiative system is actually even more interesting as high level enemies will draw multiple cards acting at multiple different times during the round
In 2D Ed D&D, it was important to have people with secondary skills related to survival and bushcraft
At least, with how we played it
I think it started becoming less important sometime in 3rd or 4th, where the focus became more about story and combat and less about the overall RPG experience (including what some may consider the less glamorous but highly immersive parts --- camping, survival, hunting, etc)
I only wish that Free League managed to get a hold of the original world of Ereb Altor as well, to incorporate into Dragonbane. Everything from the maritime superpower of Trakoria, the hermit kingsom of Nidland, to the wild steppes of Barbia, not to mention the small crusader state of Palinor. It'd be amazing to see what kind of adventures players could get up to in this setting!
When thinking about the numbers on the d20 (or any die type) for a roll low game, it can be helpful to think 1 means 1st; 2, 2nd; 3, 3rd etc… Now the 'higher' numbers are nowhere near that gold, silver or bronze medal. It's a thought anyway.
Thanks for the analysis. Enjoyable and good food for thought.
i like the idea of initiative card deck. i also thought about how maybe opposed skillchecks or some combats could be based on MTG style playing cards as well. but that would probably make a lot of balancing nearly impossible.
in their other game, Forbidden Lands. You can not only swap initiative cards with a willing ally, you also can use the 'feint' action to switch with an opponent. And characters with a initiative feat can draw two cards and choose which too keep.
@@marxmeesterlijk I belive there are a few similar mechanics in Dragonbane. I know for sure there is an ability that allows you to keep your initiative card at the end of the round.
Just played Dragonbane last night and really liked it unknowingly on all the basis you laid out here.
I felt way more included because I could hunt and fish and forge way better than the others, making me a daily hero while on the way to the adventure site. Didn't have a bow and quiver and had to borrow it, which made me really want to buy a nice one when I had the money.
I'm a huge fan of being able to have the chance to level the skills used at the end of game sessions instead of using XP
Also, not having a lot of money in the beginning is a huge incentive.
The game is fast and tough, so we have to participate and hopefully be a team
Great video! Super thoughtful analysis of those mechanics
It would be great to hear your thoughts on Shadowdark as well. I recently started running that game, and I love it more than 5E. Keep up the great content.
I'm drawn to this as it seems more harder but more real dnd. Going to DM it soon.
Its so baffingly easy to run and play, but that does NOT make it less in depth/ danger/ width etc. And solo and co-op is a joy too! Im a wolfkin on the second Solo mission with an orc I rescued in the last one. We... um well I rolled for what beasties lurked in the rolled unknown waypoint location we found and we got.. Abondoned Library with 4 giant spiders, things in the rooms are flourishing fungi, a mirror 😂 you can use the solo Oracle tables for you dm/ gm use too 😁
There used to be opposed rolls where the opposing role got a negative from whatever the other person rolled.
So to use your example: You are the fisherman and I challenge you, you roll 17 on your skill of 18 as per your example.
That would give me -1 to my roll, so I would roll 10-1=9
I roll a 9 I also succeeded.
Since it was a tie. We would both get the same size fish.
Just realized @EnterTheBreach posted the same thing 6 months ago...
I picked up the quick start rules for Dragonbane just because the art is sooo good. It doesn't have the full system. Now I'm debating getting the boxed set just so I have all those rules that I might be able to bring into anything.
Good call out on the Pendragon mechanic.
A major difference between Dragonbane and D&D is that your hit points and "magic points" doesn't scale, but pretty much are the same on a fresh character and an experienced character. In some campaigns - especially West Marches style campaigns - this is essential. It also makes balancing encounters with enemies a ton easier on the GM, as it keep all enemies relevant throughout the campaign. I've always hated that how much the increase in power in D&D is from level gaining 1-2 additional levels. "After killing a few goblins and a bear I can now survive at least twice the amount of damage before I go down". In my eyes a silly mechanic, and also feel like it restricts your choice in enemies based on character levels - since your hit points to survive the encounter likely will be too high for it to be a challenge or too low for it to feel fair. I love that Dragonbane's power scaling is much more flat, yet stills feels impactful. And that "magic points" newer reach a point where the caster can't run out between rests.
This breakdown is excellent, one thing I wonder is have you taken a look at how it stands up against something like The Black Hack which uses a very similar "roll under" system but is way more rules light and genre agile?
Absolutely LOVE Dragonbane! My group did a test play and review of it, but it's on the short list to come back and play at least a mini campaign. Also, as a fellow world builder, did you know about Free League's own version of an OGL for creators to make and sell materials using the Dragonbane rules. I love that. Anyway, thanks for the great video!
Nice one. Thanks for the review and comparison.
We played Palladium Fantasy 1E. Spells are treated as spells-per-day. It doesn't matter which spell, though Wizards don't know every spell. 2nd Edition uses magic energy points, and each spell has a cost. Magic energy can even be pulled from the environment.
I've also played Pocket Fantasy. Spells are 2 per battle, and 2 per session when not in battle. The battle spells are limited to six spells. Out of combat it is a GM-set skill roll, but can be ANYTHING the GM will allow. Because the wizard can cast 2 spells per battle they're never out of magic, technically. There are also tokens you can save up so you can go ham with magic when it is needed.
I absolutely agree on the camping / survival mechanics.
The "Watch" system sounds interesting. Time for more experimentation.
I also like playing-card mechanics for initiative. Deadlands Classic had one that was both thematic & fun.
DCC also has a couple different ways you can cast a spell that you might not otherwise be able to cast
IMHO DCC has the best magic system.
I'm with Pendragon too, but it should be fairly easy to houserule in. Great vid BTW
I know Jasmine from Acq Inc, but I didn't know you had this channel, and that you were also a Doc Strange fan with those two big honking statues in the background
As far as setting the Dragonbane setting is intended to be dropped into any other setting or you building outside of that region.
The Roll Low mechanic is supposed to benefit players, given that you are likely to start with 3-7 in most skills.
Edit: Plus it makes Solo Play a lot easier to manage.
Also obligatory: can't parry monsters only dodge.
Card-based initiative from Savage Worlds is fantastic, and I've used it in 5e. It's great, as long as you don't mind changing some abilities that affect a character's initiative rolls.
Perhaps for unmemorized spells, 3 or 4 actions the first time that spell is used, if used this way, coupled with a dice roll:
1: The spell page incinerates as the spell takes effect; spend your next action keeping the fire from spreading.
2-5: Smoke, and the beginnings of the page catching on fire: d6: 4-6 you don't lose the spell. (1-5: 4 total actions.)
6-14: You manage it, but it takes 4 actions.
15-19: Things go well; it only takes 3 actions.
20: Extraordinary! It only takes 2 actions, and the effects are modestly enhanced!
Thank you for the new ideas on Critical Hits and Initiative, especially. This actually has me more excited to get back to my game.
Oh, and higher rolls on everything just feels right. (Unless everyone agrees that some thing(s) should be the opposite. Or, that on This session, some random roll will be.)
As always super great video. dragonbane sounds really interesting, ill have to try it out!
Really love these tips! Gosh I love the spellbook rule! So so cool!
I am a Dragonbane / Drakar och Demoner - player since 1st ed in 1982, anbd the thing I love with character creation is that you don't base character on a class defined by unique class abilities.That any character can learn anything is very important to me and I always get frustrated with games that wants to push character into computer-game roles withing the party. A wizard in Dragonbane can learn to be a master swordsman, for instance, with practice, even if not at character creation. Previous editions was more flexible in this, oiginally there were proffession suggestions, but you could easily just go with a concept and create your character rather freely.
First time watcher here!
Loved the content, but one TINY constructive criticism:
The background music.
Maybe only once before have I watched a TH-camr where the background music pushed to the front of my mind and took me out of the video, and sadly, I found myself constantly thinking by about your music while you were talking.
I watched all the way through, loved the discussion, but if you ever read this, please consider lowering the volume of it, and or changing the song (didn’t really fit the theme which is part of what made it stand out)
Anyway, awesome content! Thank you!
I like Dragonbane. It plays like faster Runequest and you can integrate all sort of skills.😊
Thanks for sharing these mechanics and your thoughts on them, Bronze! Very helpful insights.
Warsung (a tabletop skirmish game) takes an interesting approach...you use a deck of cards for everything including auctioning for initiative with the values of the poker cards. (But also attack, defense etc, so you really have to strategize)
Card driven initiative is easy to hack into 5E. As long as the camping rules don't cripple the party (looking at you Forbidden Lands) I'm cool with incorporating them into play. Have the wilderness classes/backgrounds roll survival at advantage and give the party a minor boost for the next day.
Really nice break down, thanks for the info!! Great channel, new subscriber :)
I totally agree on using the Pendragon system for opposition rolls. It is funny but it's something I had already thought doing myself.
Good insights on Dragonbane, a really nice game overall.
Fun fact, Dungeons and Dragons never got a big foothold in Sweden thanks to Dod/Drakar och Demoner/Dragonbane. It also layed the foundation for Sweden game development. Alot of the survival rules are taken from Forbidden lands/Svärdets sång, who also is in it self a derviate from the old Drakar och Demoner.
It is so great that drakar och demoner is getting a chance over seas :)
I was going to suggest the Pendragon mechanic...and then you went there....and I subscribed ;)
Great overview of why I also prefer Dragonbane! The camping and hunting rules are really good. Rolling low on opposed rolls is an acquired taste. The way I see it, 1 is a perfect score, as in I'm the Number One, the best. It has the benefit of not introducing a different rule just for opposed rolls. Fewer rules to remember is better imho.
I would also add that if you choose the highest roll you negate the possibility of rolling a Dragon (1) in an opposed roll. I give a special action bonus to my players when that happens.
I appreciate you analysis of this great game. Thank you for the informative and helpful feedback.
I think the best way to do spells is like the D6 system by "west end games" does it, which in my eyes is the best system anyway! In the D6 system, magic is a skill and spells have a difficulty. So when you know the spell, there is still a chance that the spell fails, because you may have messed up the spelling or something. On the flip side you are able to use all spells all the time without limits. The harder the spell, the harder the difficulty. So if you are an accomplished wizard you still may struggle with the master spells, while you can cast the low tier ones over and over again with ease!
Btw. if I ever will direct an elderscrolls movie, you are in as a redguard fighter, just so you know! ;)
AD&D (in first edition Unearthed Arcana) DID have a rule for casting spells out of the caster’s spell book; however, it was SUPER-punishing. I believe it automatically consumed the spell out of your spell book, so you lost being able to prep it in the future unless you got it again, and ALSO there was a low percentage chance it also “burned up” an adjacent spell in the spell book.
Needless to say, it was not an option ever used in our campaigns back in the day 😄
For the opposed rolls I would compare the difference of the roll from the skill. So if player 1 rolls a 12 and their applicable skill is 18, the difference is 6. The player 2 rolls a 10, but their skill is 14, so their difference is only 4. So player 1 would beat player 2, because they rolled lower compared to their skill than player 2 did (they have a bigger difference).
Hope to see you GM a Dragonbane game some day.
Just cast the spell from your spellbook!
Wait, where is the spellbook?
Round 1. Take off backpack, undo bindings. It takes a whole round unless you are completely absorbed in the task. That would mean flanked (+4 to attacker or equivalent in DB), and defenseless (in D&D that would be Dex 0 = -5 defense).
Round 2. Search for spellbook. It isn't hard to find, per se, but unless you want to dump the entire contents out you need to take care. Move things you don't want dumped out of the way, pull the book out carefully so that other things don't get dragged out with it. A single round would not be guaranteed success.
Round 3 (or maybe round 4, depending on the backpack issues). Find the spell. How big is the spellbook? Were spells added piecemeal, and therefore in essentially random order? Let's suppose this particular spell is doggy-eared and you can turn right to it, so it only takes one action. What can you do with your other action? Can you start to cast it now and fi ish it on the next round?
Round 4,5,6,etc. Wait, in D&D it takes 1 min per spell level to prepare. You cast it in 3 seconds because you already did all the hard work. 1 round per spell level would be 6 times faster (you said DB has 10 sec rounds). Even that might be generous.
"Roll under but high" is vastly superior to straight roll low, in my mind.
Timestamps for people who want them.
The Better:
1:13 1) Camping skills
2:50 2) Cast spells not prepared
4:28 3) Critical Hits
5:49 4) Time/Rests is handled better
7:37 5) Initiative
The Bad:
9:07 1) "The setting" is not really there.
9:36 2) Opposed Rolls (Rolling against a base skill, not an opposing roll)
The idea of a greater number being a "high" roll and a lesser number being a "low" roll is dependent upon perspective. Old-school gamers thought more in terms of rank or class (e.g., armor class) due to their wargaming background, so 1 was considered as best. Just like how getting an "A" is considered a better result than a "C" on a test. Or "1st rate" vs "2nd rate" when talking about skill or level of service. I just wanted to throw that in since the idea of rolling closer to 1 as being good throws off a lot of modern gamers since they lack exposure to that idea.
When I run AD&D 2E, I handle opposed ability score checks based on the degree of success if both rolls are lower than the target number. E.g., A fighter (STR 16) and a bard (STR 10) are arm wrestling. Both roll against their strength score-and both roll a 6. The fighter wins because the difference between his strength score is greater than that of the bard. 10 and 4, respectively. I find that this method makes ability scores more meaningful as individual numbers. I also might experiment with an alternative where advantage is granted to a character if it's an ability check on one of their prime requisite scores.
Good review.
Of course all of us old BRP/GMs have been running rules like this for the last 40yrs or so (excepts the core mechanic being percentile dice rather than D20), but its nice to see such a good quality streamlined version with high production standards.
BRP games like RQ and Mythras still do much better on the Opposed Roll part, which is really great for combat scenes
This system is still quite good however, much better than D&D in my opinion.
Hopefully Dragonbane will do quite well
Good review, I look forward to some more of your reviews like this 👍
I was with you until opposed rolls, I didn’t get where you were coming from. And then you explained WHY the higher should win and…yah, that makes sense. Great video.
How do you do the survival mechanics in 5e?
Strong fan of that Roll High Under system - it's like blackjack in that you want as much as you can get, but not TOO much
Pendragon's opposed rule is amazing in its simplicity and balance!
Back to the 80s with Jasmine! As a former regular of the streams who can't often make it to broadcasts r
these videos are always a treat
Welcome back!
i honestly bought the game because of the mallard...lol its so cool
love it