mount athos doesnt translate to holy mountain. Athos was one of the Giants in greek mythology. the mountain/peninsula is named after this figure. the etymology of Athos is unknown. ***some languages call mount athos "holy mountain" instead, rather than referring to it by its Greek name.
I don't even see the point why women would want to go there. It feels like an entitlement issue. The monks clearly don't want you be there, than why you want to go there anyway?
@@eustab.anas-mann9510Why would Catalonia waste so much money like that? Is there a consistent Catalan community of Orthodox believers I wasn't aware of?
Actually, there were some occasions in which women entered Mount Athos. Some adventurous princesses with a caprice to visit this place, entered Athos. Stories say that they either get killed mysteriously afterwards or became nuns. In addition, during the Greek Rebellion of Halkidiki against the Ottomans in 1821, and after the burning of all peninsula from the Turks, many children and women entered Mount Athos. The monasteries hid them for up to ten years in order not to be killed or be sold as slaves in North Africa. Two of my ancestors found refuge there. Also during the Greek Civil War (1946-1949), a few female fighters of the so called Democratic Army came to the Monasteries.
I wonder what the Communist fighters wanted there? 80 km to the North where there "daddy" Tito of Yugoslavia... I should research it ... Although I am tired of Greeks killing Greeks
Serbian Empress Jelena visited Mount Atos during the plague that hit region at the time, however during her stay there she was always carried so that her foot never touched the ground.
Private clubs are generally free to make their own rules and ban whoever they wish. My personal view of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy notwithstanding, a private monastery or nunnery should be free to ban women or men or cows or whatever suits their fancy.
Priests in the powerful Greek Orthodox Church are treated as civil servants in Greece and their salaries - estimated at more than 200 million euros annually - have therefore been paid directly from the state budget. Take into account that the Greek Orthodox Church is extraordinarily wealthy.@@charvaka9526
As a woman I have absolutely no problem about their stance of not allowing women into their home. It could destroy their way of life and freedom to worship in their own way and who would want to take that sacredness and magic away? There's too much emphasis on access for everyone and making everything the same, imo, and we all need to know that there are amazing places that are different and kept sacred, even if it means that we can't go to visit. :)
Meanwhile there are lots of places forbidden to men and no one have an issue with that. I think it should be both way either everything is allowed to both genders or both have the right to have places just for them.
@@sebozz2046I I agree with the latter but not the former. Everyone has, and should have, the right to be in a same sex situation for anything, whether it's a man's/woman's own club or a religious order. To deny that would be draconian. I like men and enjoy their company but there are some instances when it's more appropriate to be in a female only situation and vice versa. As I said, we shouldn't feel we have the right to be everywhere, lol.
Leave them be. A world with no differences is a boring world. Not to mention respecting cultural heritage. It’s not like it’s an entire country or state, just one small peninsula with a historical tradition that isn’t seeking to subjugate women outside their private land. This is their home, not a tourist attraction open to the general public and we should absolutely respect their right to choose who may enter.
@@mocabe01 You realize monks are not born into their work right? Its Christian, just like priests faith is voluntary. It has lasted because of its super high cultural significance drawing more followers in.
Another woman protesting I am a woman and agree with monks . Always that is forbidden to woman is a protest and if the monks allow them to look for others places to protest. I respect the monks and agree because that is place for worship no a resort.
I dont want to worship or visit the monasteries. I want to walk in the area of the peninsula to see its nature. No interaction with monks. Just observing the flora and fauna. Why should I not be allowed ? They won't even see me. I can camp in a tent and never talk to them. No human interaction. I will just admire the fiorests and the mountain. It makes no sense to me this aversion they have against women.
As a woman, I support the monks right to keep Mount Athos as male only. As an Orthodox Christian, I appreciate that there are places like Mount Athos where prayer is kept pure.
My uncle was a monck on Hilandar for 20 years, I remember when I slept there with my father when we visited the monastery, I was about 6 years old. Its truly a beautiful place. I never thought it would be mentioned somewhere again. Dont try to force these people to do what you want, it's obviously not wanted.
@@kieranadamson3224 Mecca is holy to all three main religions. It's a site of Abraham. Muslims would let Christians and Jews go there before men would allow women onto Athos, that is only a "tradition", as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself has admitted. Not part of the religion. Many other traditions have disappeared, but not the ban against women, because.. EDIT to add the irony of holding up Mecca - a place of annual pilgrimage in.. Saudi Arabia, not exactly a bastion of liberalism, as the contrast to an EU peninsula of a couple thousand men succeeding in keeping the entire region to themselves. At least Mecca is only a city lol
@@kieranadamson3224 please listen to yourself. You can't justify banning a group of people (insert any other group) because it's been the the tradition, enacted when women had no rights, were property ,etc. It's only continuing because it is women, who are so universally loathed or powerless apparently that these zealots can continue it. And get away with not paying taxes. How powerful they must be ..
*In Northern Greece, there is a small island that belongs to Mt. Athos which is also exclusive to monks and monasteries. This island is called Kyra Panagia and is found about 50 km to the south of the Athos peninsula.
There are entrance fees* involved and the monasteries need the money, so tourists or pilgrims will not be banned, be sure about it. They also sell certain items to the tourists btw. *25 euro fee for orthodox visitors and 30 euro for the rest for a 4-day visit and accomodation in a monastry. This is all pre-arranged and paid in Thessaloniki where the visas are issued.
@@theo9952 Its not tourist the way you describe it. If you declare that you are a tourist who brings money but after no spiritual aspirations you won't be accepted and denied entry. The visitors are not tourists in the sense that you visit to have fun and spend your time.
@@stauros7513 To begin with, no one has to "declare" anything. As long as one is not strongly and evidently suspected for intentions to cause trouble during his stay in Athos, he will pay the fee and get his visa. And remember that it is the Greek authorities who are in charge and are responsible for those visas. Not the monks.
@@theo9952 Religious Visitors may enter - no tourists, probably you don't understand the context asociated with the tourist. of course someone can lie and get his way into easy, but if the evidence is clear that someone is going on tourist vacations on mt. athos i assure you they will be denied entry
@@theo9952 I assure you that the monasteries do not rely on money from “tourists” plus it’s not a touristic trip, that require them to book for a couple of days to stay in one of the monasteries, because their coffers are full and they are very self-reliant.
it's ok. we don't need to go to a place that does not accept female visitors. there are specific individuals i do not invite into my own home. why should it matter? all is well.
@@dzxn3728exactly peopel genuinely don't understand that. I use this analogy. If we live in a society where one group is pacifist and another is violent. Would it be ok for the pacifist to defend against the violent people woth violence. The answer would be yes to protect the peace and the safety of others. SAme goes for this. Just because we are tolerant doesn't mean we will protect and allow intolerance to fester because it would destroy what we already fought for or trying to obtain.
If you want to fight intolerance how about you talk about places like saudi arabia or Pakistan and etc which btw those are whole ass countries and then talk about a small peninsula where about 1000 monks live
@@luvidx9919 Sophia the bot doesn't have to cover & they gave her citizenship. Elon musk owes them 13b for Twitter. Hate that. That is the bigger fish. But I don't participate in whataboutism. All misogyny must be intolerable.
@@dzxn3728I really can't understand the behavior of some men or even feminists who comment here. If you don't like a place, then don't have to visit it. However, you come here to write bitter comments. Just skip the video people. They don't bother you don't bother them. They have their life, they have their faith, they deal with what they want to deal with, they devote themselves to what they believe in. Period! And finally, if you don't like these kinds of places, just visit other places, there are hundreds of thousands of other places on this planet. If you want to be respected respect others!
Mount athos should just be left alone. Its their religion, westoids have no right to come in and whine about it being “sexist” without knowing ANYTHING about greece and its beliefs, nor geography and religion in general
Well yes. It is a different thought of what it actually was, so it naturally changes it into what it isn’t. Then again, doesn’t have to be modern. Just has to be something different.
Why does this matter? It's a religious community segregated for religious reasons. No different then say a holy island where only nuns are allowed or something. Places like this do exist and I really don't see why it's breaking news.
It surprises me that a woman from the other side of the world finds oppression in the fact she can't visit a place she previously didn't even know existed. I bet if there wasn't a law forbidding women, most of these people messing with mount Athos today wouldn't even bother mention it. Friends of Mount Athos respect Mount Athos, if you have no respect you're not a friend 👎
Guaranteed if the situation was reversed and this autonimous region had an Abbess and sisters and novices there would be HE LL a screaming and demands to keep any males out from entering their space.
It already has a limitation of only 10 tourists/researchers/etc and howevermany orthodox pilgrims though, and the former is too small to have a meaningful impact and the latter would respect the supposed importance of the monks' duties, soo... what the fuck does the gender of those visitors matter? And what about visitors who later figure out they're trans or something? It's just a flawed way of interacting with the world.
Hagion Oros translates to holy mountain. Athos is the name the mountain has had since antiquity, named after the mythological giant Athos who accidentally created the peninsula by throwing a rock.
Exactly. The people in the comments who cope over this mountain and even go as far as to say it should be destroyed are definitely greasy redditors. Mt athos is based
Access to some random mountain is not a big deal, and because it is private, owners have the right to decide who to invite onto their land anyway. But this argument of "we should not impose our values onto other people" is not a good argument to justify anything. People have used it to justify honor killings and prevent girls them from leaving a house without an escort or getting an education. When people's "values" infringe upon human rights, it is not right, and women and men have inalienable equal rights. It's not surprising that some people get triggered when some suggest that it is good that the mountain is off-limits to girls and this is the only reason offered
@@PurpleTurtle7288 this isn’t imposing rights tho? they dont allow women because its only for The Most Holy Woman, Theotokos. It isnt sexist at all. cope
There was an Empress (Helena I think) who was allowed on the mountain, however, she was carried on a litter or hand carriage so that she doesn't touch the ground.
The question is, why would a woman want to go to Mount Athos? The ones who are Orthodox (right believers) surely do not want the rule to change, while the others have no business there, except to create irritation.
and its not like Mount Athos is the only place with monasteries in the Ortodox world. The entire world is filled with them and anybody can visit. Just outside of my village there is a female monastery and has every kind of visitor every day. Its just that Mount Athos is something more than that and it should be preserved.
It's mostly the message it sends about women, in 202x. That they can still be banned, in the EU, with all its non-discrimination laws, and also receive EU money. Women are considered unclean and sinful by nature, a temptation. It's not in the religion. It's only a thousand year old tradition. Well slavery was a tradition too at one time..
The EU scammers never gave any money to that and even if they did nobody cares about their almost zero contribution. If wimmen don't like it they can move elsewhere or find another religion. Simple as that. But no, they prefer breaking balls right and left about something they don't even really care about.
@@taniakol It's mostly this obsession with destroying everything traditional or rooted in faith, cutting down religion, controlling it, and generally claiming that your feminist ideology knows better in every respect. It's ruining the West; now you're out for more blood, wanting to ruin the East as well.
As a romanian woman and kind of familiar with orthodox christianity, let me tell you, Mount Athos isn't hiding anything incredibly special, there are special events and prayers there but most male visitors seem to not care for it. The place looks like any monastaries, some unique historical features but that's mostly it. Every single holy place has it's rules, despite the common faith.
wdym its nothing special... As a Greek i can confirm to you that going there is like traveling back to byzantine times, the architecture, landscape, way of life and overall atmosphere is profound and absolutely worth it.
It's literally traveling back in time 500 years though. No exaggeration. It's like going to Cuba is a time warp back to 1955. Every car building etc. is from that era (for better or worse, we all know it's down to their poverty, but still) That comment can only be made by someone who has zero value for history
@@varsoo1 my grandparents come from a village still using manual labor tools for land and animals to this day. The tractor is used on a minimum if not at all. There are also still remote monastaries where they did not bother with modernity and pretty much limit themselves to owning a van or the priest owning a car. Poverty is still visible from a low to no income family, monastaries may not be poor but sure are disciplinary to some extend. You have no idea what you're talking about and how I value things.
I'm sorry, why is an American so concerned that this tiny peninsula in Greece doesn't allow women visitors? In what way does this impact her life? I find it more than imperialistic to assume that the whole world needs to conform to American cultural standards... and I'd even go as far as to say this whole video was just plain disrespectful. even demanding a community to explain themselves is just ridiculous
@barkydogableWell regardless it's really no one else's business but the monks. It's millenia old religious community that seculed for spiritual reasons.
the disrespect comes with the host and the journalist he's speaking to offering opinions on the appropriateness of this places' existence. the journalist offering personal opinion on the rules of this place she's obviously never been to is where the disrespect lies. @@bazilbednar2081
The lady in the video giving an argument about "biologist, doing field work".... well.... there are many male biologists, and I dare to believe that there are many other places in the world where female biologists could do field work.
I really can't understand the behavior of some men or even feminists who comment here. If you don't like a place, then don't have to visit it. However, you come here to write bitter comments. Just skip the video people. They don't bother you don't bother them. They have their life, they have their faith, they deal with what they want to deal with, they devote themselves to what they believe in. Period! And finally, if you don't like these kinds of places, just visit other places, there are hundreds of thousands of other places on this planet. If you want to be respected respect others!
Only in this stupid day and age would anyone make their mission in life to destroy everything which is sacred, traditional and respected. It's not about a woman feeling oppressed. She just wants to be the first to take selfies there for her insta channel. It's that sad.
Exactly ! And people don't understand why women are banned, the also don't even wanna inform themselves. Sacred things must be preserved and my dear, you are totally right there
@@mathiask.5474 As tradition goes, the mother of God (the blessed Theotokos) had came across the island and made it her own. As honor and reverence to her, she was the only lady to be on the island. That is why women are banned on the island. It's not sexist, its not meant to put women down, it is simply out of respect for the mother of God.
I prefer a world were a tiny peninsula full of ancient monasteries is unique. I would feel the same if men were banned instead. Unique (not cruel) places teach us things about ourselves and about history.
It is really like a big monastery, the experience is probably like visiting any other well managed monastery .Having visited a monastery myself its remarkably easy and a worthwhile (even if you are not religious, like me) ,you can just find one on google maps and go hang out there for a few hours . The monks are super friendly and welcoming, as long as you are respectful .
@@mocabe01 seeing the comment elsewhere it is ether heavy bad trolling or just pure ignorance. The monasteries accept any man that wants to be a monk (even though it is not that simple to join and there is an entire process, especially in Mount Athos). From age to age monasteries may suffer from low population and endagerment of closing but they usually recover and may even surprass older population numbers. Men just join in, you leave your past life and join a new one in the monastery, no matter the backround. Usually the monastery has requirment of 18 years of age to keep the schemes but there are cases of young kids joining in on their own volition. Some saints of the last century were such kids that answered the call in young age and others that joined older always admitted that wanted to join since they were small kids.
@@PELLIOTIS Yes, I posted this similar question in many(?) other comments. But it is neither trolling nor "ignorance" , o most holy and wise One [sarcasm]. It is to increase my chances of actually getting a reply because I genuinely did not know. Thank you for your reply O Great and Divinely inspired Pelliotis. It is an honor to have been spoken to by such a man who knows everything.
@@mocabe01 i am sorry if i gave such impression but seeing the same question in every comment is annoying. I never claimed i know better and there is no reason for said sarcasm. If you really wanted to know i apologize
@@PELLIOTIS You should have also noticed I thank every one who gave answers so there was no need to be upset because that shows I was not trolling. Good day.
Mount Athos is so interesting and unique. Truly a time capsule that preserves a long lost world, I would be honored if I had the chance to visit it one day. I just regret that the area bans women, even Vatican City State has a few female residents (mostly wives and daughters of Swiss Guards). Still, this place is very blessed to be preserved the way it was. Safe from the destruction of human industry, it's beautiful and it's heritage is significant.
I hope everyone leaves these monks and their way of life alone. We need to understand that we don't need to make all spaces accessible to everyone and that is not necessarily discrimination
On rare and very clear days Mount Athos appears floating over the sea as I have coffee on my terrace in front of my house on one of the islands of the Sporades. It is stunning and magical in ghostly blues, pale purples or reflecting yellow orange light. I hope to visit someday.
@@Silkypaste Maybe so, but many people (myself included) cannot go to Mecca just because of their religion or lack of religion and there are some places that restrict men. I suppose the world is unfair. If it was up to me, I'd let women travel to Athos at the same small rates as others who are not monks but it isn't. It's the choice of the people of the peninsula who all happen to be male monks.
@@Silkypaste there are literally millions of other places you can go to that are far more beautiful, why do you care so much about a little piece of land?
According to Mz Bimbo, a geographic feature is suffering from a "serious mental condition"? Some people should be disallowed access to recording devices!
I am thankful for the many monasteries I can visit. St. John's Monastery in Goldendale, Washington (USA) is a wonderful place, and the sisters are very welcoming.
@@LibrarianSankore this is the only monastic state in the world. It has nothing to do with that its an all male society or all female society. You literally need permission, and to go through a border in a 1 way in and out into Athos. Which it s even militarily guarded. Its the only place in the world that has Byzantine times.
@@mariossahamis3969 no. Tibet is not a monastic state. And also not independent. Athos is. And hence Athos is the only monastic state in the world. You literally need permission to get there. And there is only 1 way in. Through a pass, protected by military, by boat
If they consider the entire area their private property, then it's their prerogative to decide who can enter and who cannot. Not every situation revolves around equality concerns. It's a relatively small rocky area that isn't a major attraction for most people. Greece is a stunning country, and right near that mountain, there are two other similar mountains that extend into the sea. If you're genuinely interested in seeing something similar, you could visit those places. Most importantly no women or girls live there so women's rights aren't an issue on that island. However, it feels like many individuals are drawn to this location purely to spark controversy and advocate for rights that aren't directly related to this small piece of land. The monks who reside there likely don't prioritize accommodating women biologists because that specific location might not be suitable for biology studies. If that's your focus, there's another mountain just 20 kilometers away that could better serve that purpose. It's important to recognize that not every battle needs to be fought by everyone. Sometimes, it's better to let these individuals live peacefully on their mountain without unnecessary conflict.
Everyone needs a safe space and so do these men seeking spiritual enlightenment free from the distractions of the opposite sex. If it upsets you to think that this is wrong, then just don't think about it.
I question the vow of chastity that the monks on Mt Athos have taken. If there is no female around, how can you test your vow and consciously battle with so-called ‘temptation’? Other monasteries have female visitors. They test their vow of chastity regularly whereas the cowards on Mt Athos don’t have to. Seems to be quite an empty vow of chastity IMHO. Doesn’t seem fair compared to other religious orders where people who have taken a vow of chastity are tested through contact with the opposite sex.
@@tatarofromfyromistan5010 That’s just it, the chastity vow isn’t a problem and it should be. A religious vow is supposed to be hard to keep because it tests your faith.
People who want to allow women think a law change would do no harm. It's one huge monastery. Nuns don't allow men; monasteries don't allow women. Let the law stand or let idle curiosity destroy a huge part of history.
I’m a liberal. And I believe it should be left alone. Because I don’t want everyone in my house. Besides, they are not discriminating against women, they are stating that they are average humans with weaknesses who can concentrate on their prayer and work without the temptation of women. Basic farming and prayer, which we can all do. That is not discriminatory. Now powerful governments and companies made up of old white men. Discrimination.
While I found this respectful I would still point out that you made the entire video about the most unique place in Europe about your liberal sensibilities. You also failed to mention the most important time women enterer the island: as refugees. Thousands of women and children have been taken care of on Athos in times of distress, during the Greek war of independence thousands of women and children stayed on Athos for over ten years. They all eventually left when it was safe because they loved Athos for Athos, and respected it too much to centre their wants over the beauty of its holiness.
it is not just women. The last years in order to go there and even stay a few days you have to have a invitation from someone there in order to visit. i know that cause my dad went there for a week invited by his cousin. People there can contact with family member ONLY by letter and is rumored that this letter is opened before is received by peope there.The can contact by women his cousin is speaking to his sister via letter. But i believe they do not allowed to send many cause for exaple my dad was senting one and received back reply letter for him after a month or more.
As an Orthodox Christian, I'll say that this place is one of the holiest places in Orthodox Christianity. It needs to be spared from hordes of tourists, so leave them be. There is nothing for tourists to see there
the "h" is silent. Agion Oros is how you read it, just like Hagia Sofia , you read it as Agia Sofia. Thats a little tip for the people reading it wrong out there.
@@g3org3yo7 Yes, in Modern Greek the spiritus asper has disappeared. Anyway, my comment was about that the speaker said that Mount Athos means Holly Mountain.
Last vestiges of things and ideas thought to be long gone are always interesting to me. Mount Athos as the last tiny vestige of Byzantine Empire is a notable example.
Agree, very interesting. Would love to go there. The peninsula's the same size as Philadelphia, Grenada or Malta (336 square km/130 sq miles ) so hardly tiny.
@@taniakol The Byzantine Empire at it's greatest extent was estimated to have been 1.5 million sq miles/ 3,400,000 square km (5 Million square km if you include vassal states)* , which is over 10,000 times the area of Mount Athos State today.
@@28KasterArt You're comparing a peninsula to an empire. Byzantium was a city of six square kilometers or 2.3 square miles and I'm sure managed to hold quite a bit. Mt Athos can - and does, with 20 monasteries and more - have plenty of artifacts and treasures to enthrall visitors (I mean pilgrims).
There should be no debate on the topic of women being banned. If you don't like it go do something different and productive with yourself. Its real simple.
The “avaton” of the Holy Mountain has nothing to do with sexism or hate against women. Women have the whole world to travel if they want. Why it’s mandatory to visit a small place full of churches? If you want to attend a monastery and become an nun there are countless women monasteries in the mainland. Our monasteries in Orthodoxy are either male or female. Women can become nuns in every female monastery and they can visit and pray in any male monastery. The avaton has nothing to do with what some people claim. Monks are not tempted by the women etc. This is purely the ancient laws and traditions from Byzantium. The tradition says that at the Byzantine Era, the daughter of Emperor Theodosius the Great, Princess Plakidía visited the Holy Mountain. She was in a trip and she asked to visit the Vatopèdi monastery that is was built by her father, Emperor Theososius. The monks couldn’t deny her wish even though they knew that women weren’t allowed by the wish of Theotokos Maria herself. Princess Plakidía visited the monastery of Varopèdi and she liked the monastery. But she entered the main church she saw an icon of Theotokos Maria to be like she was alive in front of her. Princess Plakidía fell to her knees and before she could say a word she saw the face of Theotokos to become alive in an iconography on the wall in front of her. Theotokos spoke to her in a stern voice through her icon saying: “Princess what are you doing here? Don’t you know that I am the only Queen, the only women in this place? Turn around and leave! No other women should be allowed here even again!” Plakidía turned away and run in shock. She immediately left from Mt. Athos and later tell everyone about they miracle she experienced. Her father, Emperor Theodosius the Great ordered that mo woman should be allowed in Athos ever again on commands of Theotokos Maria! Also, from that day a candle burns in front of that icon that was named Αντιφωνήτρια / antifonítria which means “she who spoke”. Every day they add olive oil to the candle that it had never went out!
Nice story but not an excuse in 2023. It has everything to do with misogyny and women being considered unclean, temptations to the monks, less-than. Otherwise the ban - on the peninsula if not at the monasteries - would be lifted. It's precisely the message it sends to men and to women, which is men can go to this "spiritual" place - and women cannot. They do not actually have equal rights. In the EU. Which gives them money.
@@gnas1897 "By the way"? Priests do the liturgy at convents but in any case I'm not even talking about the 20 monasteries. I'm talking about not being allowed to set foot on the 130 square mile peninsula. 500 meters away or go to jail. How much more blatant does it have to be for you to acknowledge it? Most men do "btw". They know exactly what it is.
Also, in the place of the great monasteries, there were ancient Greek cities which at some point were evacuated by imperial decree in the 9th century. This was done by Nikephoros Phokas after the reconquest of Crete in 961 from the Saracen Arabs The roads between these ancient cities still exist today as paths that pilgrims walked to get from one monastery to another. The trip to Mount Athos is like returning to 10th century Byzantium
@@mocabe01 Monks in Athos are primarily from Greece I would say something like 50% although i could be wrong As for the rest 50% it's real "rainbow" of nationalities primarily from European Orthodox countries and some from even further like German, American, Bristish... Monks
@@kostam.1113 Interesting. I wonder how they are screened to ensure they really commit to their vows and not go out when the "itch" becomes too much to bear. Again, thank you.
In Greek η Μαριάμ - Maria is commonly titled η Θεοτόκος - i Theotókos meaning the God-bearer. Even the grammatical gender of this name is unusual being feminine. In Greek nearly all names/nouns that end -ος are grammatically masculines, o Σταύρος - Stávros, o Γιώργος - Giórgos/ο θανότος - the death, ο πόνος - the pain, o λόγος - the word or reason (tho' some -os ending nouns are so very old they are actually neuters - το). What is rare in Greek is for -os ending names to be feminines - η, and one of these is this title i Mariám bears η Θεοτόκος. So even the guardian saint of Áthos has a "skewed" linguistical genre applied to it.
As Orthodox and woman i never visit monasteries, doesn't matter which monaster women or men .I believe monasteries are monks homes and i respects peoples home and only visit if someone alow me ro visit , or ask me to visit .As for the Europe they have no rights to interfere. If they ever decide to remove the ban Greek people will interfere too .We don't like our church to be disrespected like Europe did to Vatican. Good for them if they like women in Vatican or gay , leave the holy mount of Athos out of this .
Even female animals like sheep ,cows and ever other female animals are strictly forbidden. But my favourite monastere is "Meteora" ,one or two are in use and they were shown in an older "James-Bond-Film".
Meanwhile no one is shoked that in times of war like Ukraine right now men are not allowed to leave the country, even forced into the frontline. What about "liberty of movement" there?
Mount Athos is private property. The owners have the right to invite anyone they choose there. And the owners of Mount Athos have the right to deny anyone.
It's weird this obsession some people have with needing to be at places they can't. Like there is a women suing the mountain for human and women's rights. Why does she want to be there so badly? It just seems to be out of spite, or jealousy or something. No women is oppressed there, because there are no women there to oppress. So who's human rights are violated.
Very interesting to see places like this being able to survive in the 21st century that clashes with modern society values. This is a monetary just like those in the mountains of China and India, a mystery that few are allowed to travel to.
It's a whole peninsula. They can stay in their 20 monasteries - paid for by the good women of the EU - if they hate women so much. There is NO reason women biologists, historians, nuns.. should be banned from stepping foot on any part of 130 square miles. It's barbarian in 2023 (or any other time). But here we are.
But women's monasteries have to have a priest to celebrate Liturgy, so not equal. I didn't dig having to have men at all, so I went to Independent Orthodoxy.
There was a similar case in India with the Sabrimala Temple. But, with the Supreme court doing away with the ban, well, things got a little out of hand. Had India pulled a similar move, the world would have hounded us.
Her argument that hypothetically it could be career restricting should a woman researcher wish to study a species of wildlife, is plausible. However, compare Mt Athos to other places in the world that are not accessible to everybody. For example, the missionary John Allan Chau was killed by Sentinelese, a uncontacted indigenous tribe on an island in the Indian Ocean when he tried to convert them to Christianity. He kept on landing on the island until they finally got rid of him.
Not really, I keep my eyes to myself in the gym, but I don't like all the women looking for d or at least dressed as if they are looking for d.@@ifluvinguiswrong
@@ifluvinguiswrong we understand that you're gay because of your obsession with talking about gay people, but there's no need to project your own degeneracy onto people who aren't you.
If some wants to see how the Holly Virgin Mary looks like Kindly visit in mount athos the russian monastery of saint pantelimon where a miracle had taken place in 1903 as far as remembered [ kindly correct me if for the year] Where she gave her blessing to the monks to photograph her 🥲 Here is the photo www.vimaorthodoxias.gr/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/1-38.jpg
It's the same reason they used to not allow women into ships - it'll cause drama among the men 🤣. And in the case of these monks, they'd like to be as far away from any temptations as possible. I'd say a parallel would be convents where nuns also limit the entry of males. Albeit it's probably not as restrictive as Mt Athos coz after all, they need men do some of tasks like maintaining and repairing structures, etc.
If someone wishes to become a monk he will be tested thoroughly as a novice for 3 to 5 years and after that if he warmly wishes to become member of the brotherhood he will be accepted... Fortunately there are many candidates that replenish the population with Americans and one from japan recently... But the monks make clear to all who wish to become monks... Finish any cosmic obligations that they have and then become monks...
Women were allowed in the monasteries until the 11th century, but because the monks committed many abuses and behaved like secular despots, they were banned with an imperial decree from Constantinople. From then on, it is forbidden for a woman to be on the holy Mountain but also for female horses and donkeys
As a Greek, it's actually good they're adhering so much to the traditions. Plus that they're actually really cultured and very learned. The libraries in the monasteries might as well have artefacts that we don't even know about, as everything is so secluded.
@@tatarofromfyromistan5010 Trust me, women's monasteries don't want men either. They're imposed on them via the clergy. But that is a whole other subject.
The very fact that it is debated if women should be allowed or not really shows the lack of understanding and respect now days!! This is not a city or a town it is an area with a few monastery's it is autonomous and has lived that way for a millennia. It is not a resort or a retreat it is a place of worship! I am not religious my self but I understand the fact that they have to right to live the same way they did for A MILLENNIA in this SMALL area ! People need to understand that being for forbidden of something doesn't mean it impedes your freedom, somethings are bigger than you and me get over it!
Not only are women banned, but also children, livestock and media. They can't jail kids, livestock or the media so I understand why the heavy punishment. The previous attempts were a good enough reason.
Αγίους Όρος - Holy Mountain The word holy comes from the Greek word Αγίους (á-gios) meaning apart from (a) the world (gios). The mountain is set apart and only for those that tend it.
I've been there once for business purposes. The landscape, the environment, tge forests and the monuments are stunning. It's beeing preserved constantly and that's the right way to pass this UNESCO heritage to the next generations
About the titles: it is not a state; it is a community. Greece is not divided in states, like US, Mexico and Brazil. 0:25 Mount Athos is translated to (H)oros Athos. (H)Agio(n) (H)Oros is translated to Holy Mountain. 0:27 It is not semi-autonomous, but autonomous; even more autonomous than the autonomous regions of Kossovo and Voivodina in ex Yugoslavia were! The turkish occupation did not begun with the fall of Constantinople in 1453, but just after the fall of Thessaloniki in 1430 (the monks surrendered it to the Turks). It was liberated not by the greek independence war at 1821, but by the greek army, during the 1st Balkan War in 1912. 8:21 It is normal for 800 yo olive trees to bare fruits.
It is though in winter. The mountains rises 2034 meters straight out of the sea, which makes it a Ultra peak mountain and also why it has such spectacular mountain scenery meeting spectacular sea scenery. But in winter the mountain is often snow covered
There were also some Greeks among those who came to worship in the feast. These therefore came to Philip from Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying: Lord, we want to see Jesus. Philip comes and says to Andrew, and again Andrew and Philip say to Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified..
I don’t think we should force them to accept women, but I guarantee that all that respect for tradition would go out the window for Europeans if this place was a Muslim holy site.
Well to all who they don't know the complete history of the monasteries.. Most of them in the sea side were built as castles because of the pirate raids that took place and they had the permission from the Patriarch to defend their selves with weapons [ byzantine era]
Gender equality is an oxymoronic, oversimplified idea. In general, females need their own spaces and so do males. The word "ban" is misleading. Respect female-only and male-only places. There aren't many of them.
State can also refer to a province. Just like Germany and the US consists of States which aren't independent. So the term isn't entirely wrong. You are absolutely right about the Technical definition though.
You can get access to exclusive maps and photos of Mt Athos by joining our Patreon: www.patreon.com/faultline
The mountain is accessible on foot, not just by boat, at least it's possible.
I want to enter women's sports. Equality!
mount athos doesnt translate to holy mountain. Athos was one of the Giants in greek mythology. the mountain/peninsula is named after this figure. the etymology of Athos is unknown. ***some languages call mount athos "holy mountain" instead, rather than referring to it by its Greek name.
@@HenryLeslieGraham here in Greece we call this place Αγίο Όρος = Holy Moyntain , mount Athos is the name of the mountain.
I don't even see the point why women would want to go there. It feels like an entitlement issue. The monks clearly don't want you be there, than why you want to go there anyway?
Until 2000 they also banned anyone from catalonia because a mercenary company of catalans raided them in the 14th century.
The ban on men from Catalan origin lasted until 2005 when the Catalan government paid 250000 euros in reparations to the monastic community.
@@eustab.anas-mann9510Why would Catalonia waste so much money like that? Is there a consistent Catalan community of Orthodox believers I wasn't aware of?
@J.o.s.h.u.a. Because the Catalan Company devastated Mount Athos in the 14th century, and looted the monasteries.
@@J.o.s.h.u.a.to the government of a wealthy region 250,000 Euros isn't even pocket change
Understandable.
Actually, there were some occasions in which women entered Mount Athos. Some adventurous princesses with a caprice to visit this place, entered Athos. Stories say that they either get killed mysteriously afterwards or became nuns. In addition, during the Greek Rebellion of Halkidiki against the Ottomans in 1821, and after the burning of all peninsula from the Turks, many children and women entered Mount Athos. The monasteries hid them for up to ten years in order not to be killed or be sold as slaves in North Africa. Two of my ancestors found refuge there. Also during the Greek Civil War (1946-1949), a few female fighters of the so called Democratic Army came to the Monasteries.
I wonder what the Communist fighters wanted there? 80 km to the North where there "daddy" Tito of Yugoslavia... I should research it ... Although I am tired of Greeks killing Greeks
Interesting.
Thank you so much for these informations!Ευχαριστώ!
If I'm not mistaken women also found refuge there during the Macedonian revolution of 1854.
Serbian Empress Jelena visited Mount Atos during the plague that hit region at the time, however during her stay there she was always carried so that her foot never touched the ground.
Private clubs are generally free to make their own rules and ban whoever they wish. My personal view of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy notwithstanding, a private monastery or nunnery should be free to ban women or men or cows or whatever suits their fancy.
As long as they aren't receiving national funding in a secularist republic. It isn't quite right that Bush & Bush visit at taxpayer's expense.
@@charvaka9526greece isn't secular though
I didn't think so. Still, it is unfair, and, theocracies need restraints.@@shingosshojiopoulos6608
it is@@shingosshojiopoulos6608
Priests in the powerful Greek Orthodox Church are treated as civil servants in Greece and their salaries - estimated at more than 200 million euros annually - have therefore been paid directly from the state budget. Take into account that the Greek Orthodox Church is extraordinarily wealthy.@@charvaka9526
Protect the holy mountain!! ☦🇬🇷
As a woman I have absolutely no problem about their stance of not allowing women into their home. It could destroy their way of life and freedom to worship in their own way and who would want to take that sacredness and magic away? There's too much emphasis on access for everyone and making everything the same, imo, and we all need to know that there are amazing places that are different and kept sacred, even if it means that we can't go to visit. :)
Meanwhile there are lots of places forbidden to men and no one have an issue with that. I think it should be both way either everything is allowed to both genders or both have the right to have places just for them.
@@sebozz2046I I agree with the latter but not the former. Everyone has, and should have, the right to be in a same sex situation for anything, whether it's a man's/woman's own club or a religious order. To deny that would be draconian. I like men and enjoy their company but there are some instances when it's more appropriate to be in a female only situation and vice versa. As I said, we shouldn't feel we have the right to be everywhere, lol.
I hope that they would at least let scientists/researchers/historians to enter, but under very strict rules.
@@cabbage2794 What if a man wants to enter women's sports or bathrooms just for research purposes?
@@cabbage2794there are male scientists and researchers for that :)
Leave them be. A world with no differences is a boring world. Not to mention respecting cultural heritage. It’s not like it’s an entire country or state, just one small peninsula with a historical tradition that isn’t seeking to subjugate women outside their private land. This is their home, not a tourist attraction open to the general public and we should absolutely respect their right to choose who may enter.
Curious... how do they procreate if there are no women>?
@@mocabe01People become monks of their own volition.
@@mocabe01No fucking way you are asking that
@@Mondy667 you think so?
@@mocabe01 You realize monks are not born into their work right? Its Christian, just like priests faith is voluntary. It has lasted because of its super high cultural significance drawing more followers in.
Another woman protesting I am a woman and agree with monks . Always that is forbidden to woman is a protest and if the monks allow them to look for others places to protest. I respect the monks and agree because that is place for worship no a resort.
Keep in mind that there are nunneries where men are being forbidden
I dont want to worship or visit the monasteries. I want to walk in the area of the peninsula to see its nature. No interaction with monks. Just observing the flora and fauna. Why should I not be allowed ? They won't even see me. I can camp in a tent and never talk to them. No human interaction. I will just admire the fiorests and the mountain. It makes no sense to me this aversion they have against women.
As a woman, I support the monks right to keep Mount Athos as male only. As an Orthodox Christian, I appreciate that there are places like Mount Athos where prayer is kept pure.
I believe that Mt Athos should be respected as it has been. And I’m a woman.
My uncle was a monck on Hilandar for 20 years, I remember when I slept there with my father when we visited the monastery, I was about 6 years old. Its truly a beautiful place. I never thought it would be mentioned somewhere again. Dont try to force these people to do what you want, it's obviously not wanted.
I think it is very good for the nature and marinelife to be spared from tourists, there are many other nice places you can visit in Greece
Exactly, this is an ancient holy site. The Orthodox Christian equivalent of Mecca. It deserves to be left to itself.
@@kieranadamson3224 Mecca is holy to all three main religions. It's a site of Abraham. Muslims would let Christians and Jews go there before men would allow women onto Athos, that is only a "tradition", as the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself has admitted. Not part of the religion. Many other traditions have disappeared, but not the ban against women, because.. EDIT to add the irony of holding up Mecca - a place of annual pilgrimage in.. Saudi Arabia, not exactly a bastion of liberalism, as the contrast to an EU peninsula of a couple thousand men succeeding in keeping the entire region to themselves. At least Mecca is only a city lol
@@taniakol okay, so a religious site has a specific group of traditions. What's wrong with that?
@@kieranadamson3224 please listen to yourself. You can't justify banning a group of people (insert any other group) because it's been the the tradition, enacted when women had no rights, were property ,etc. It's only continuing because it is women, who are so universally loathed or powerless apparently that these zealots can continue it. And get away with not paying taxes. How powerful they must be ..
@@taniakol Will you allow people born as males to enter women's bathrooms?
Leave the peninsula alone as is.
*In Northern Greece, there is a small island that belongs to Mt. Athos which is also exclusive to monks and monasteries. This island is called Kyra Panagia and is found about 50 km to the south of the Athos peninsula.
And that island and monastery admits also female visitors.
Mount Athos is not your typical Disney. Respect the tradition. Ban tourists.
There are entrance fees* involved and the monasteries need the money, so tourists or pilgrims will not be banned, be sure about it. They also sell certain items to the tourists btw.
*25 euro fee for orthodox visitors and 30 euro for the rest for a 4-day visit and accomodation in a monastry. This is all pre-arranged and paid in Thessaloniki where the visas are issued.
@@theo9952 Its not tourist the way you describe it. If you declare that you are a tourist who brings money but after no spiritual aspirations you won't be accepted and denied entry.
The visitors are not tourists in the sense that you visit to have fun and spend your time.
@@stauros7513 To begin with, no one has to "declare" anything. As long as one is not strongly and evidently suspected for intentions to cause trouble during his stay in Athos, he will pay the fee and get his visa. And remember that it is the Greek authorities who are in charge and are responsible for those visas. Not the monks.
@@theo9952 Religious Visitors may enter - no tourists, probably you don't understand the context asociated with the tourist. of course someone can lie and get his way into easy, but if the evidence is clear that someone is going on tourist vacations on mt. athos i assure you they will be denied entry
@@theo9952 I assure you that the monasteries do not rely on money from “tourists” plus it’s not a touristic trip, that require them to book for a couple of days to stay in one of the monasteries, because their coffers are full and they are very self-reliant.
it's ok. we don't need to go to a place that does not accept female visitors. there are specific individuals i do not invite into my own home. why should it matter? all is well.
Intolerance paradox. Tolerating Intolerance leads to tolerating patriarchal fascism. Obviously.
@@dzxn3728exactly peopel genuinely don't understand that. I use this analogy. If we live in a society where one group is pacifist and another is violent. Would it be ok for the pacifist to defend against the violent people woth violence. The answer would be yes to protect the peace and the safety of others. SAme goes for this. Just because we are tolerant doesn't mean we will protect and allow intolerance to fester because it would destroy what we already fought for or trying to obtain.
If you want to fight intolerance how about you talk about places like saudi arabia or Pakistan and etc which btw those are whole ass countries and then talk about a small peninsula where about 1000 monks live
@@luvidx9919 Sophia the bot doesn't have to cover & they gave her citizenship. Elon musk owes them 13b for Twitter. Hate that. That is the bigger fish. But I don't participate in whataboutism. All misogyny must be intolerable.
@@dzxn3728I really can't understand the behavior of some men or even feminists who comment here. If you don't like a place, then don't have to visit it. However, you come here to write bitter comments. Just skip the video people. They don't bother you don't bother them. They have their life, they have their faith, they deal with what they want to deal with, they devote themselves to what they believe in. Period! And finally, if you don't like these kinds of places, just visit other places, there are hundreds of thousands of other places on this planet.
If you want to be respected respect others!
"To impose a modern thought to an ancient entity would destroy the ancient entity." Absolutely.
Mount athos should just be left alone. Its their religion, westoids have no right to come in and whine about it being “sexist” without knowing ANYTHING about greece and its beliefs, nor geography and religion in general
@@gendunchoepel3480 it should be preserved, its their religion and their culture. modernity has no right to impose someone elses religion.
@@gendunchoepel3480 Okay, harmful cultural practices should be eliminated. Who is being harmed on Mount Athos?
Well yes. It is a different thought of what it actually was, so it naturally changes it into what it isn’t. Then again, doesn’t have to be modern. Just has to be something different.
@@SS-yj2le Maybe it does and maybe not.
Protect this Mountain forever,
Blessings from Ethiopia
☦
If you want to start imposing modern Western views on places, there are so many places you could start with where women actually live.
Right! I saw a Frontline documentary on Iran. A place where women are literally being killed by the police,for fighting for freedom.
I agree can you imagine if people started saying trans-women should be allowed to become Nuns.
@@icedriver2207or women to teach in madrassas in the Muslim world
Greece is part of the Western World -_- What^
@@PurpleTurtle7288 It is? Since when? lol
Why does this matter? It's a religious community segregated for religious reasons. No different then say a holy island where only nuns are allowed or something. Places like this do exist and I really don't see why it's breaking news.
It surprises me that a woman from the other side of the world finds oppression in the fact she can't visit a place she previously didn't even know existed. I bet if there wasn't a law forbidding women, most of these people messing with mount Athos today wouldn't even bother mention it. Friends of Mount Athos respect Mount Athos, if you have no respect you're not a friend 👎
Thats because this is still a mysoginistoc attitude. Im Orthodox Christian and I cant stand these POS.
Typical woman, what do you expect. Always looking for a way to be the victim. Mt.Athos is probably the most peaceful place on Earth.
Guaranteed if the situation was reversed and this autonimous region had an Abbess and sisters and novices there would be HE LL a screaming and demands to keep any males out from entering their space.
@@MihaelaMaxim-m8gThe fact that you call yourself orthodox, yet you go against ecumenical decree means you’re about as orthodox as I am a Bob Marley
It already has a limitation of only 10 tourists/researchers/etc and howevermany orthodox pilgrims though, and the former is too small to have a meaningful impact and the latter would respect the supposed importance of the monks' duties, soo... what the fuck does the gender of those visitors matter?
And what about visitors who later figure out they're trans or something? It's just a flawed way of interacting with the world.
Hagion Oros translates to holy mountain. Athos is the name the mountain has had since antiquity, named after the mythological giant Athos who accidentally created the peninsula by throwing a rock.
The reason why no female, human or not can be on the peninsula, is because the only woman in mount Athos is the Virgin Mary.
Fyi, there are monasteries where men aren’t allowed either. that’s how it works. There’s male only and female only monasteries.
@@olbiomoiros They dont even allow female saints to adorn the monasteries, with the exception of Mary the Egyptian (for very specific reasons)
@@PELLIOTIS I didn't know about the other Mary... Thank U!
Lets not impose our values onto people who dont wish to, we dont need to be able to go everywhere, let them live like they want to
Exactly. The people in the comments who cope over this mountain and even go as far as to say it should be destroyed are definitely greasy redditors. Mt athos is based
You cant impose nothing to mountain Athos is the soul of Greece and Romania the byzantine state
Ζήτω η Ελλάς
Ζήτω η Ρωμανία
Ζήτω η Ορθοδοξία
Access to some random mountain is not a big deal, and because it is private, owners have the right to decide who to invite onto their land anyway. But this argument of "we should not impose our values onto other people" is not a good argument to justify anything. People have used it to justify honor killings and prevent girls them from leaving a house without an escort or getting an education. When people's "values" infringe upon human rights, it is not right, and women and men have inalienable equal rights. It's not surprising that some people get triggered when some suggest that it is good that the mountain is off-limits to girls and this is the only reason offered
@@PurpleTurtle7288 this isn’t imposing rights tho? they dont allow women because its only for The Most Holy Woman, Theotokos.
It isnt sexist at all. cope
Too many traditions have been destroyed, leave these men alone.
@@Pisti846 😂
Yes and bring back flogging too.
There are many monasteries everywhere in Europe which are exclussively used by females and it is strictly forbitten to males.
There was an Empress (Helena I think) who was allowed on the mountain, however, she was carried on a litter or hand carriage so that she doesn't touch the ground.
No it was a russian princess.. Holly Virgin Mary told her to stop near the beach never allowing her to enter
@@mariossahamis3969 maybe that too. But the guy above is also correct. Empress Helena of Serbia was im fact carried on mt. Athos
This video is fascinating. I never heard of such a place. Absolutely stunning ❤
The question is, why would a woman want to go to Mount Athos? The ones who are Orthodox (right believers) surely do not want the rule to change, while the others have no business there, except to create irritation.
and its not like Mount Athos is the only place with monasteries in the Ortodox world. The entire world is filled with them and anybody can visit. Just outside of my village there is a female monastery and has every kind of visitor every day. Its just that Mount Athos is something more than that and it should be preserved.
It's mostly the message it sends about women, in 202x. That they can still be banned, in the EU, with all its non-discrimination laws, and also receive EU money. Women are considered unclean and sinful by nature, a temptation. It's not in the religion. It's only a thousand year old tradition. Well slavery was a tradition too at one time..
The EU scammers never gave any money to that and even if they did nobody cares about their almost zero contribution. If wimmen don't like it they can move elsewhere or find another religion. Simple as that. But no, they prefer breaking balls right and left about something they don't even really care about.
@@taniakol It's mostly this obsession with destroying everything traditional or rooted in faith, cutting down religion, controlling it, and generally claiming that your feminist ideology knows better in every respect. It's ruining the West; now you're out for more blood, wanting to ruin the East as well.
@@taniakol It's mostly to keep bitter militant middle-aged feminists like you, out of Agion Oros.
As a romanian woman and kind of familiar with orthodox christianity, let me tell you, Mount Athos isn't hiding anything incredibly special, there are special events and prayers there but most male visitors seem to not care for it. The place looks like any monastaries, some unique historical features but that's mostly it. Every single holy place has it's rules, despite the common faith.
wdym its nothing special... As a Greek i can confirm to you that going there is like traveling back to byzantine times, the architecture, landscape, way of life and overall atmosphere is profound and absolutely worth it.
It's literally traveling back in time 500 years though. No exaggeration.
It's like going to Cuba is a time warp back to 1955. Every car building etc. is from that era (for better or worse, we all know it's down to their poverty, but still)
That comment can only be made by someone who has zero value for history
@@varsoo1 my grandparents come from a village still using manual labor tools for land and animals to this day. The tractor is used on a minimum if not at all. There are also still remote monastaries where they did not bother with modernity and pretty much limit themselves to owning a van or the priest owning a car. Poverty is still visible from a low to no income family, monastaries may not be poor but sure are disciplinary to some extend. You have no idea what you're talking about and how I value things.
accept that most monastaries aren't independant states are they..also not having been there how would you know
As a Romanian *Woman* - Alright, thank you for your input. But it's kind of oxymoron, isn't it?
I'm sorry, why is an American so concerned that this tiny peninsula in Greece doesn't allow women visitors? In what way does this impact her life? I find it more than imperialistic to assume that the whole world needs to conform to American cultural standards... and I'd even go as far as to say this whole video was just plain disrespectful. even demanding a community to explain themselves is just ridiculous
Because she's American.
@barkydogableWell regardless it's really no one else's business but the monks. It's millenia old religious community that seculed for spiritual reasons.
I agree with what you are saying except for the video being disrespectful. It's an informative documentary.
the disrespect comes with the host and the journalist he's speaking to offering opinions on the appropriateness of this places' existence. the journalist offering personal opinion on the rules of this place she's obviously never been to is where the disrespect lies.
@@bazilbednar2081
The video was mediocre covering a topic far more interesting than the narrow minded people talking about it
The lady in the video giving an argument about "biologist, doing field work".... well.... there are many male biologists, and I dare to believe that there are many other places in the world where female biologists could do field work.
I really can't understand the behavior of some men or even feminists who comment here. If you don't like a place, then don't have to visit it. However, you come here to write bitter comments. Just skip the video people. They don't bother you don't bother them. They have their life, they have their faith, they deal with what they want to deal with, they devote themselves to what they believe in. Period! And finally, if you don't like these kinds of places, just visit other places, there are hundreds of thousands of other places on this planet.
If you want to be respected respect others!
Only in this stupid day and age would anyone make their mission in life to destroy everything which is sacred, traditional and respected. It's not about a woman feeling oppressed. She just wants to be the first to take selfies there for her insta channel. It's that sad.
Exactly ! And people don't understand why women are banned, the also don't even wanna inform themselves. Sacred things must be preserved and my dear, you are totally right there
@@mathiask.5474 As tradition goes, the mother of God (the blessed Theotokos) had came across the island and made it her own. As honor and reverence to her, she was the only lady to be on the island. That is why women are banned on the island. It's not sexist, its not meant to put women down, it is simply out of respect for the mother of God.
I prefer a world were a tiny peninsula full of ancient monasteries is unique. I would feel the same if men were banned instead. Unique (not cruel) places teach us things about ourselves and about history.
It is really like a big monastery, the experience is probably like visiting any other well managed monastery .Having visited a monastery myself its remarkably easy and a worthwhile (even if you are not religious, like me) ,you can just find one on google maps and go hang out there for a few hours . The monks are super friendly and welcoming, as long as you are respectful .
Curious... do you know how they maintain their number if women are not allowed ?
@@mocabe01 seeing the comment elsewhere it is ether heavy bad trolling or just pure ignorance. The monasteries accept any man that wants to be a monk (even though it is not that simple to join and there is an entire process, especially in Mount Athos). From age to age monasteries may suffer from low population and endagerment of closing but they usually recover and may even surprass older population numbers. Men just join in, you leave your past life and join a new one in the monastery, no matter the backround. Usually the monastery has requirment of 18 years of age to keep the schemes but there are cases of young kids joining in on their own volition. Some saints of the last century were such kids that answered the call in young age and others that joined older always admitted that wanted to join since they were small kids.
@@PELLIOTIS Yes, I posted this similar question in many(?) other comments. But it is neither trolling nor "ignorance" , o most holy and wise One [sarcasm]. It is to increase my chances of actually getting a reply because I genuinely did not know. Thank you for your reply O Great and Divinely inspired Pelliotis. It is an honor to have been spoken to by such a man who knows everything.
@@mocabe01 i am sorry if i gave such impression but seeing the same question in every comment is annoying. I never claimed i know better and there is no reason for said sarcasm. If you really wanted to know i apologize
@@PELLIOTIS You should have also noticed I thank every one who gave answers so there was no need to be upset because that shows I was not trolling. Good day.
Mount Athos is so interesting and unique. Truly a time capsule that preserves a long lost world, I would be honored if I had the chance to visit it one day. I just regret that the area bans women, even Vatican City State has a few female residents (mostly wives and daughters of Swiss Guards). Still, this place is very blessed to be preserved the way it was. Safe from the destruction of human industry, it's beautiful and it's heritage is significant.
mt athos is a place of monasticism unlike the Vatican
Athos is the only monastic state in the world
You compared that Satanic slumber with Mount Athos 😒.
@@niarlatotepbasset There really is no Western equivalent that I know of. I agree, the Vatican is a bad analogy.
I hope everyone leaves these monks and their way of life alone. We need to understand that we don't need to make all spaces accessible to everyone and that is not necessarily discrimination
"This mountain is insane."
Mmmh. Sure,pumpkin. Sure.
On rare and very clear days Mount Athos appears floating over the sea as I have coffee on my terrace in front of my house on one of the islands of the Sporades. It is stunning and magical in ghostly blues, pale purples or reflecting yellow orange light. I hope to visit someday.
You can ‘hope to visit someday’, but I cannot, just because of my sex. That’s unfair.
@@Silkypaste Maybe so, but many people (myself included) cannot go to Mecca just because of their religion or lack of religion and there are some places that restrict men. I suppose the world is unfair. If it was up to me, I'd let women travel to Athos at the same small rates as others who are not monks but it isn't. It's the choice of the people of the peninsula who all happen to be male monks.
@@Silkypaste The world is unfair. Get over it.
@@Silkypaste there are literally millions of other places you can go to that are far more beautiful, why do you care so much about a little piece of land?
According to Mz Bimbo, a geographic feature is suffering from a "serious mental condition"? Some people should be disallowed access to recording devices!
As a greek woman I never cared about that. I would never want to visit a place I'm not wanted😊
I bet gay sex happens on that place.
@@chef7658no
@@chef7658Just because your dad picked up that habit a while back doesn’t mean that every man with a beard likes to suck on a sausage.
If only those other b1tc@es felt that way...
I am thankful for the many monasteries I can visit. St. John's Monastery in Goldendale, Washington (USA) is a wonderful place, and the sisters are very welcoming.
Wow, this is so interesting.. i never knew! Thank you for this informative video it's so beautifully made
Mount Athos is a community of Orthodox Monasteries. Theologically, there can be no contact between Monks and Nuns in daily living.
Just discovered your channel. I love obscure history. Thank you for bringing the knowledge to the world.😊
Just like Buddhist Monastery , So it isn't Surprising
Yes, but Athos is the only Monastic state in the world
@@Ptolemy336VV Eh, but it isn't the only large "no women zone" in the world. Japan has a Mountain and an Island separate with that.
@@LibrarianSankore this is the only monastic state in the world. It has nothing to do with that its an all male society or all female society. You literally need permission, and to go through a border in a 1 way in and out into Athos. Which it s even militarily guarded. Its the only place in the world that has Byzantine times.
@@Ptolemy336VV You forgot the Tibet :P
@@mariossahamis3969 no. Tibet is not a monastic state. And also not independent. Athos is. And hence Athos is the only monastic state in the world. You literally need permission to get there. And there is only 1 way in. Through a pass, protected by military, by boat
This is such a cool topic to cover, I am so interested in what y'all are going to do in the future.
If they consider the entire area their private property, then it's their prerogative to decide who can enter and who cannot. Not every situation revolves around equality concerns. It's a relatively small rocky area that isn't a major attraction for most people. Greece is a stunning country, and right near that mountain, there are two other similar mountains that extend into the sea. If you're genuinely interested in seeing something similar, you could visit those places. Most importantly no women or girls live there so women's rights aren't an issue on that island.
However, it feels like many individuals are drawn to this location purely to spark controversy and advocate for rights that aren't directly related to this small piece of land. The monks who reside there likely don't prioritize accommodating women biologists because that specific location might not be suitable for biology studies. If that's your focus, there's another mountain just 20 kilometers away that could better serve that purpose. It's important to recognize that not every battle needs to be fought by everyone. Sometimes, it's better to let these individuals live peacefully on their mountain without unnecessary conflict.
The 'woke' crowd won't be happy until they piss up everything in creation---devils.
Everyone needs a safe space and so do these men seeking spiritual enlightenment free from the distractions of the opposite sex. If it upsets you to think that this is wrong, then just don't think about it.
I question the vow of chastity that the monks on Mt Athos have taken. If there is no female around, how can you test your vow and consciously battle with so-called ‘temptation’? Other monasteries have female visitors. They test their vow of chastity regularly whereas the cowards on Mt Athos don’t have to. Seems to be quite an empty vow of chastity IMHO. Doesn’t seem fair compared to other religious orders where people who have taken a vow of chastity are tested through contact with the opposite sex.
@@Silkypaste That's their problem. Everyone has their own vows to attend to.
@@tatarofromfyromistan5010 That’s just it, the chastity vow isn’t a problem and it should be. A religious vow is supposed to be hard to keep because it tests your faith.
@@Silkypaste No vow is the same as others though and nobody forces anyone to live the life of St. Anthony.
@@Silkypaste It's just one of the vows, and really just a preventative rule
People who want to allow women think a law change would do no harm. It's one huge monastery. Nuns don't allow men; monasteries don't allow women. Let the law stand or let idle curiosity destroy a huge part of history.
The devil will always find a reason to profane and pervert the ways and works of holiness and God!
Westerners (liberals to be specific) should keep out from our internal affairs and respect our faith. Not everything is for sale
I’m a liberal. And I believe it should be left alone. Because I don’t want everyone in my house.
Besides, they are not discriminating against women, they are stating that they are average humans with weaknesses who can concentrate on their prayer and work without the temptation of women. Basic farming and prayer, which we can all do. That is not discriminatory.
Now powerful governments and companies made up of old white men. Discrimination.
@@philippal8666 Western women have grown too comfortable deriding their own men and ancestors.
While I found this respectful I would still point out that you made the entire video about the most unique place in Europe about your liberal sensibilities.
You also failed to mention the most important time women enterer the island: as refugees. Thousands of women and children have been taken care of on Athos in times of distress, during the Greek war of independence thousands of women and children stayed on Athos for over ten years. They all eventually left when it was safe because they loved Athos for Athos, and respected it too much to centre their wants over the beauty of its holiness.
it is not just women. The last years in order to go there and even stay a few days you have to have a invitation from someone there in order to visit. i know that cause my dad went there for a week invited by his cousin. People there can contact with family member ONLY by letter and is rumored that this letter is opened before is received by peope there.The can contact by women his cousin is speaking to his sister via letter. But i believe they do not allowed to send many cause for exaple my dad was senting one and received back reply letter for him after a month or more.
As an Orthodox Christian, I'll say that this place is one of the holiest places in Orthodox Christianity. It needs to be spared from hordes of tourists, so leave them be. There is nothing for tourists to see there
Mount Athos doesn't mean Holly Mountain, Hagion Oros does.
In greek it hagion oros
@@pineapplephill7934 That's exactly what I said.
the "h" is silent. Agion Oros is how you read it, just like Hagia Sofia , you read it as Agia Sofia. Thats a little tip for the people reading it wrong out there.
@@g3org3yo7 Yes, in Modern Greek the spiritus asper has disappeared. Anyway, my comment was about that the speaker said that Mount Athos means Holly Mountain.
Last vestiges of things and ideas thought to be long gone are always interesting to me. Mount Athos as the last tiny vestige of Byzantine Empire is a notable example.
Agree, very interesting. Would love to go there. The peninsula's the same size as Philadelphia, Grenada or Malta (336 square km/130 sq miles ) so hardly tiny.
@@taniakol The Byzantine Empire at it's greatest extent was estimated to have been 1.5 million sq miles/ 3,400,000 square km (5 Million square km if you include vassal states)* , which is over 10,000 times the area of Mount Athos State today.
@@28KasterArt You're comparing a peninsula to an empire. Byzantium was a city of six square kilometers or 2.3 square miles and I'm sure managed to hold quite a bit. Mt Athos can - and does, with 20 monasteries and more - have plenty of artifacts and treasures to enthrall visitors (I mean pilgrims).
@@taniakol Mount Athos is a time capsule of *Byzantine* traditions and religion.
@@28KasterArt Byzantine. Byzantium was the city. Which named the Byzantine Empire but whatever, okay, am sure it is a nice place.
There should be no debate on the topic of women being banned. If you don't like it go do something different and productive with yourself. Its real simple.
As a woman myself, I wouldn’t be enticed to enter Mt. Athos. Respect their rules, as what the saying goes.
The “avaton” of the Holy Mountain has nothing to do with sexism or hate against women.
Women have the whole world to travel if they want. Why it’s mandatory to visit a small place full of churches?
If you want to attend a monastery and become an nun there are countless women monasteries in the mainland.
Our monasteries in Orthodoxy are either male or female.
Women can become nuns in every female monastery and they can visit and pray in any male monastery.
The avaton has nothing to do with what some people claim. Monks are not tempted by the women etc.
This is purely the ancient laws and traditions from Byzantium.
The tradition says that at the Byzantine Era, the daughter of Emperor Theodosius the Great, Princess Plakidía visited the Holy Mountain.
She was in a trip and she asked to visit the Vatopèdi monastery that is was built by her father, Emperor Theososius.
The monks couldn’t deny her wish even though they knew that women weren’t allowed by the wish of Theotokos Maria herself.
Princess Plakidía visited the monastery of Varopèdi and she liked the monastery. But she entered the main church she saw an icon of Theotokos Maria to be like she was alive in front of her.
Princess Plakidía fell to her knees and before she could say a word she saw the face of Theotokos to become alive in an iconography on the wall in front of her.
Theotokos spoke to her in a stern voice through her icon saying:
“Princess what are you doing here? Don’t you know that I am the only Queen, the only women in this place? Turn around and leave! No other women should be allowed here even again!”
Plakidía turned away and run in shock.
She immediately left from Mt. Athos and later tell everyone about they miracle she experienced.
Her father, Emperor Theodosius the Great ordered that mo woman should be allowed in Athos ever again on commands of Theotokos Maria!
Also, from that day a candle burns in front of that icon that was named Αντιφωνήτρια / antifonítria which means “she who spoke”.
Every day they add olive oil to the candle that it had never went out!
Nice story but not an excuse in 2023. It has everything to do with misogyny and women being considered unclean, temptations to the monks, less-than. Otherwise the ban - on the peninsula if not at the monasteries - would be lifted. It's precisely the message it sends to men and to women, which is men can go to this "spiritual" place - and women cannot. They do not actually have equal rights. In the EU. Which gives them money.
@@taniakol Bullcrap, the scammers at the EU don't give a thing and even if they did nobody needs them.
@@taniakol btw there's female monasteries that men can't enter either. Is that also sexism?
@@gnas1897 "By the way"? Priests do the liturgy at convents but in any case I'm not even talking about the 20 monasteries. I'm talking about not being allowed to set foot on the 130 square mile peninsula. 500 meters away or go to jail. How much more blatant does it have to be for you to acknowledge it? Most men do "btw". They know exactly what it is.
Also, in the place of the great monasteries, there were ancient Greek cities which at some point were evacuated by imperial decree in the 9th century.
This was done by Nikephoros Phokas after the reconquest of Crete in 961 from the Saracen Arabs
The roads between these ancient cities still exist today as paths that pilgrims walked to get from one monastery to another.
The trip to Mount Athos is like returning to 10th century Byzantium
Curious... how are the monks able to maintain their population if there are no women>?
@@mocabe01There are always monks arriving
Back when i visited in 2009 i stayed for 2 days at a house of a German Orthodox monk
@@kostam.1113 Thank you! I was really curious about it so I asked. I presume you meant monks from outside the region? Regards,
@@mocabe01 Monks in Athos are primarily from Greece
I would say something like 50% although i could be wrong
As for the rest 50% it's real "rainbow" of nationalities primarily from European Orthodox countries and some from even further like German, American, Bristish... Monks
@@kostam.1113 Interesting. I wonder how they are screened to ensure they really commit to their vows and not go out when the "itch" becomes too much to bear. Again, thank you.
In Greek η Μαριάμ - Maria is commonly titled η Θεοτόκος - i Theotókos meaning the God-bearer. Even the grammatical gender of this name is unusual being feminine. In Greek nearly all names/nouns that end -ος are grammatically masculines, o Σταύρος - Stávros, o Γιώργος - Giórgos/ο θανότος - the death, ο πόνος - the pain, o λόγος - the word or reason (tho' some -os ending nouns are so very old they are actually neuters - το). What is rare in Greek is for -os ending names to be feminines - η, and one of these is this title i Mariám bears η Θεοτόκος.
So even the guardian saint of Áthos has a "skewed" linguistical genre applied to it.
As Orthodox and woman i never visit monasteries, doesn't matter which monaster women or men .I believe monasteries are monks homes and i respects peoples home and only visit if someone alow me ro visit , or ask me to visit .As for the Europe they have no rights to interfere. If they ever decide to remove the ban Greek people will interfere too .We don't like our church to be disrespected like Europe did to Vatican. Good for them if they like women in Vatican or gay , leave the holy mount of Athos out of this .
Even female animals like sheep ,cows and ever other female animals are strictly forbidden. But my favourite monastere is "Meteora" ,one or two are in use and they were shown in an older "James-Bond-Film".
Oh, yes, the ones that are on rock pillars. Ver interesting.
Meanwhile no one is shoked that in times of war like Ukraine right now men are not allowed to leave the country, even forced into the frontline. What about "liberty of movement" there?
Mount Athos is private property. The owners have the right to invite anyone they choose there. And the owners of Mount Athos have the right to deny anyone.
It's weird this obsession some people have with needing to be at places they can't. Like there is a women suing the mountain for human and women's rights. Why does she want to be there so badly? It just seems to be out of spite, or jealousy or something. No women is oppressed there, because there are no women there to oppress. So who's human rights are violated.
Excellent video as always. You might find interest in ancient rock cut temples that have survived colonization in India.
Very interesting to see places like this being able to survive in the 21st century that clashes with modern society values.
This is a monetary just like those in the mountains of China and India, a mystery that few are allowed to travel to.
Can men go to Nunneries and do reasearch, NO. So respect their rights too, just because they are men they still have rights.
It's a whole peninsula. They can stay in their 20 monasteries - paid for by the good women of the EU - if they hate women so much. There is NO reason women biologists, historians, nuns.. should be banned from stepping foot on any part of 130 square miles. It's barbarian in 2023 (or any other time). But here we are.
@@taniakol No skank from the EU ever paid for that. There is PLENTY of reason to ban anyone they don't like for whatever reason they damn choose.
According to feminism men don't have rights. Some say it out loud but that's what they all think.
Exactly, what if a man wants to do research in the vaginal moisture of nuns?
But women's monasteries have to have a priest to celebrate Liturgy, so not equal. I didn't dig having to have men at all, so I went to Independent Orthodoxy.
There was a similar case in India with the Sabrimala Temple.
But, with the Supreme court doing away with the ban, well, things got a little out of hand.
Had India pulled a similar move, the world would have hounded us.
Her argument that hypothetically it could be career restricting should a woman researcher wish to study a species of wildlife, is plausible. However, compare Mt Athos to other places in the world that are not accessible to everybody. For example, the missionary John Allan Chau was killed by Sentinelese, a uncontacted indigenous tribe on an island in the Indian Ocean when he tried to convert them to Christianity. He kept on landing on the island until they finally got rid of him.
Those species could be found all over not just there.
If we could just have women-free gyms, that would be heaven.
@robertlynch1404 yes, easier access for you to look at other men.
Not really, I keep my eyes to myself in the gym, but I don't like all the women looking for d or at least dressed as if they are looking for d.@@ifluvinguiswrong
@@ifluvinguiswrong we understand that you're gay because of your obsession with talking about gay people, but there's no need to project your own degeneracy onto people who aren't you.
+1 I stand for that
I stand for that and avoid women.
One lady is enough that is Holy mary the mother of our lord. She represent all women.
sure... and how will they maintain their population if they live with no women?
@@mocabe01it's over 1000 years old and thriving. I think they'll be okay.
Well I'm a woman and dedicating the whole peninsula to her is definitely not enough lol.
@@mocabe01wake up they are monks !!!
If some wants to see how the Holly Virgin Mary looks like Kindly visit in mount athos the russian monastery of saint pantelimon where a miracle had taken place in 1903 as far as remembered [ kindly correct me if for the year] Where she gave her blessing to the monks to photograph her 🥲 Here is the photo
www.vimaorthodoxias.gr/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/1-38.jpg
It's the same reason they used to not allow women into ships - it'll cause drama among the men 🤣. And in the case of these monks, they'd like to be as far away from any temptations as possible.
I'd say a parallel would be convents where nuns also limit the entry of males. Albeit it's probably not as restrictive as Mt Athos coz after all, they need men do some of tasks like maintaining and repairing structures, etc.
Curious... how are the monks able to maintain their population if there are no women?>
There are nunneries where men are forbidden. They don't even invite workers, they do all the tough jobs themselves!
If someone wishes to become a monk he will be tested thoroughly as a novice for 3 to 5 years and after that if he warmly wishes to become member of the brotherhood he will be accepted... Fortunately there are many candidates that replenish the population with Americans and one from japan recently... But the monks make clear to all who wish to become monks... Finish any cosmic obligations that they have and then become monks...
Thank god. Somewhere I can go without Oprah Winfrey on a waiting room TV.
Great work!
Great video👍
You didnt even finish the video
@@1redeye_i skipped things that I already new like the beginning and parts of its history
People now a days "wants", "you should do what ever we want". imagine if it was home?
Women were allowed in the monasteries until the 11th century, but because the monks committed many abuses and behaved like secular despots, they were banned with an imperial decree from Constantinople.
From then on, it is forbidden for a woman to be on the holy Mountain but also for female horses and donkeys
without historical proof and archives you are doing propaganda
As a Greek, it's actually good they're adhering so much to the traditions. Plus that they're actually really cultured and very learned. The libraries in the monasteries might as well have artefacts that we don't even know about, as everything is so secluded.
OK I get not letting women on the island but what is up with no female animals?? Hmmmmm....
Yea, it’s overboard.
Not all kind of animal just livestock kind female animal or generaly eatable animal, the monks dont eat meat
"if women were permitted ... it would no longer be a place of silence" Lol
Can you blame them? lol
@@tatarofromfyromistan5010 Trust me, women's monasteries don't want men either. They're imposed on them via the clergy. But that is a whole other subject.
@@harrietharlow9929 Of course but it works for the same reason.
The very fact that it is debated if women should be allowed or not really shows the lack of understanding and respect now days!! This is not a city or a town it is an area with a few monastery's it is autonomous and has lived that way for a millennia. It is not a resort or a retreat it is a place of worship! I am not religious my self but I understand the fact that they have to right to live the same way they did for A MILLENNIA in this SMALL area ! People need to understand that being for forbidden of something doesn't mean it impedes your freedom, somethings are bigger than you and me get over it!
Not only are women banned, but also children, livestock and media. They can't jail kids, livestock or the media so I understand why the heavy punishment. The previous attempts were a good enough reason.
Boys can enter Mount Athos with a male relative of their. But not babies for obvious reasons.
Sounds like some funny business are they on the down low 🤔 gay monks ? So no woman or babies just young boys and men. Ok
@@patricemitchell4392 there are lesbian nunneries if you're interested. lol
Just leave the monks alone.
Imagine how peaceful it is there.
The last piece of Byzantium,protect it.
Αγίους Όρος - Holy Mountain
The word holy comes from the Greek word Αγίους (á-gios) meaning apart from (a) the world (gios).
The mountain is set apart and only for those that tend it.
I've been there once for business purposes. The landscape, the environment, tge forests and the monuments are stunning. It's beeing preserved constantly and that's the right way to pass this UNESCO heritage to the next generations
About the titles: it is not a state; it is a community. Greece is not divided in states, like US, Mexico and Brazil.
0:25 Mount Athos is translated to (H)oros Athos. (H)Agio(n) (H)Oros is translated to Holy Mountain.
0:27 It is not semi-autonomous, but autonomous; even more autonomous than the autonomous regions of Kossovo and Voivodina in ex Yugoslavia were!
The turkish occupation did not begun with the fall of Constantinople in 1453, but just after the fall of Thessaloniki in 1430 (the monks surrendered it to the Turks). It was liberated not by the greek independence war at 1821, but by the greek army, during the 1st Balkan War in 1912.
8:21 It is normal for 800 yo olive trees to bare fruits.
Officially the most peaceful place on earth that isn't covered by ice and snow.
It is though in winter. The mountains rises 2034 meters straight out of the sea, which makes it a Ultra peak mountain and also why it has such spectacular mountain scenery meeting spectacular sea scenery.
But in winter the mountain is often snow covered
You're underestimating how cold Northern Greece and especially the mountains are during winter 😂
There were also some Greeks among those who came to worship in the feast. These therefore came to Philip from Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying: Lord, we want to see Jesus. Philip comes and says to Andrew, and again Andrew and Philip say to Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified..
I don’t think we should force them to accept women, but I guarantee that all that respect for tradition would go out the window for Europeans if this place was a Muslim holy site.
100%
Meh depends if it would still be in a European Christian country or not. Idgaf what people do in the middle east.
Idk non-Muslims can't go to mecca
Agreed
Absolutely
Good rule to be honest. Respect
Yeah keep them away from all the gay sex they are having lol 😂
@@Tacquitook turkgai
Agreed. Devil's minions should stay out.
@@Tacquito philistine
Mount Athos is a male version of Themyscira Wonder Woman's Island 🏝️ Blessings and Hugs 💖💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕
Well to all who they don't know the complete history of the monasteries.. Most of them in the sea side were built as castles because of the pirate raids that took place and they had the permission from the Patriarch to defend their selves with weapons [ byzantine era]
Gender equality is an oxymoronic, oversimplified idea. In general, females need their own spaces and so do males. The word "ban" is misleading. Respect female-only and male-only places. There aren't many of them.
I'm glad everyone in the comments has accepted respecting mt athos privacy, its a holy site not a research or tourist attraction.
No, lady..... the mountain is not "insane".
Use your words, darling!
Whatever do you mean?
The Virgin Mary knows all about it.
Athos, is not a state. It has the status of a self-governed part of the Greek state. It is not independent country, city-state, microstate or enclave.
State can also refer to a province. Just like Germany and the US consists of States which aren't independent.
So the term isn't entirely wrong.
You are absolutely right about the Technical definition though.
@@leolinguini260 Yes, since Greece is not a federal entity like Germany or the USA.
So it's not just women then. Children and eunuchs. And yet the women who complain are focused on themselves, as usual,
Narcisism