Why Are We So Obsessed With Characters Being Redeemed?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ม.ค. 2021
- Link: curiositystream.com/melinapendulum/ code “melinapendulum”
Redemption is more than you think ... and sometimes not even necessary. Today we talk: redemption, atonement, character development, and villain simping.
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I'm sorry--did Sansa even need a redemption arc? She was a thirteen year old who once lied about who punched someone and it had bad consequences. Being annoying isn't a thing someone needs to be "redeemed" from?
I know, I thought the same. She was never "bad" she was just a little annoying.
Sansa’s story was more a coming of age one than a redemption one. She starts out believing that the world operates like a classic fairytale, realizes that it doesn’t, and learns how to survive.
But because she was mean to Arya and defended Joffrey, it’s a redemption story.
That's what I'm on. Sansa's arc was an empowerment arc.
@I’m Too Kind for This Nonsense yup, Sansa was like 11 at the start of the series, 13 in the show, so she grows up. There's nothing to redeem because she's a child who made mistakes.
@Drexel Petrone Calling the Starks his adoptive family is a bit of a stretch in the sense that Ned Stark was not his adoptive father, he was his jailor. Ned Stark was to Theon what Cersei was to Sansa, even if the environment wasn’t as harmful and toxic. Theon was still very aware that he was a captive and that if his father were to rebel again (which he seemed to have every intention of doing) Ned Stark would kill him.
In Bojack Horseman when Bojack said he was sorry to Herb and he matter of factly simply says “I don’t forgive you” I felt that hard
The show is the best at truly punishing bad people. If more people were like Herb, the world would be a better place
Idk about any of yall, but when I grew up, it was always said that you should forgive others when they apologize because that's the "mature" and "morally correct" thing to do. Turns out, those same people use that logic to justify their shitty actions and the most mature thing for you to do, is to do what makes you happiest which may be refusing to accept their 'apology'
I love that seeing so much because so much media fails to acknowledge there are some things that people can do to you that you can't ever forgive them for.
You can move past it.
You can not wish them ill.
But you can't ever forgive sometimes cuz the harm they've done can't be undone.
You have to live with that and so do they.
One of my favorite movie characters of all time is Roy Batty from “Blade Runner” (R.I.P. Rutger Hauer). Hell, his dying speech has its own Wikipedia page! But, he is still a murderer, and that speech doesn’t bring back the people he killed.
@@cremetangerine82 I think Roy is kind of a bad example. He doesn't really have a redemption arc so much as we see that he has his own thoughts and feelings like anyone else. I feel like the treatment of the replicants is more supposed to analogous to how minorities are treated under society/ capitalism. They're treated as disposable and less than fully human. Viewing it this way, I see Roy and the rest as resisting the constant oppressive force that's upon them. That isn't to say that Deckard is necessarily "evil" but he unwittingly upholds an inherently cruel and exploitative system by being a cop. You kinda see how he begins to realize the treatment of the replicants is wrong towards the end. I think Blade Runner is ultimately about dehumanization and oppression under our current society and Roy murdering is just a symptom of a broken system. It's the same way most murderers are a symptom of our broken system now. No disrespect and I love blade runner too
I remember when I had to take a class on Woobie Theory in college
I double-majored in that and Wumbology.
It was first grade stuff for me.
I got an A in Femme Fatale Simping.
Nobody ruin this comment's perfect Like Count of the Beast.
Woobie Goldberg?!...
I think the issue also stems from fandom not being able to separate “I like this character. Them being in the show/book/etc. makes it fun and interesting to consume.” from “I support this character and their actions and I support what their actions would mean in a real-world setting.”
Yeah she totally mentions that on the video... this warped perspective really takes away from better conversations
Remember that episode of Arrested Development where the ethics teacher loved to study Saddam Hussein (and this was back when he was still alive), but had to keep compensating in the conversation that no, she does NOT approve of his actions?
Simpathising with a character can be divided into 'Simpathising with their plight' and/or 'Simpathising with their cause'.
... and/or 'Simpathising with their actions'
I remember seeing tumblr posts of people clarifying that ‘I don’t condone [characters] actions’ and said character is like a serial killer or an active planet-destroyer and… the fact that people have to clarify that they don’t condone stuff like destroying planets with a big laser or burning someone with magic fire.
I'm not a fan of redemption arcs where everyone who was harmed forgives them. I want more stories to have scenes where someone says, "I'm glad you're improving, but you hurt me deeply, leave me alone. "
That would be Scar from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood he fits that description perfectly he does get Redemption but the characters still don't forgive him.
That needs to be the standard for real life too, whenever some TH-camr or celebrity does something shitty, yet all of their fans insist "BUT THEY'VE CHANGEDDDDD!!!!"
"Good for them. I still don't want anything to do with them, so stay away."
People are allowed to have their boundaries.
Fruits Basket has a fantastic example of this at the end of the show. I'll not go into spoilers, because it is a wonderful story, but the way one of the character's refused to forgive their abuser, and how the other characters accepted this, and refused to gas light them into believing otherwise, was utterly refreshing for me.
Oh, this. This all over.
Anime is LOUSY with them. Just riddled to the brim. I'm too "old" now to be going for the okey doke anymore.
My problem with redemption arcs is that they often give characters redemption simply because the character is popular. One of the reasons Prince Zuko's arc is still the *best* redemption arc is because he's a character specifically **designed** for redemption. He's an angry young man and a child of abuse, but he never does anything that is beyond redeeming (at least not to the audience). Also he goes out of his way to atone for his mistakes at every turn.
Not saying that there aren't characters who have done worse that are beyond redemption, but Zuko's redemption story just makes sense for his character.
Zuko is a popular character. [+]
I mean I think that part of why Zuko's redemption works is because there ARE characters WITHIN AtLA that are beyond saving that make him look better in comparison
@@elplebeuchiha1996 Zuko is popular because of his redemption arc and because people could see themselves in him. I think the original comment was pointing to series in which an antagonist is given a redemption arc because the fanbase adores them; the storyline is swayed by audience opinion. Often, these characters can't be successfully redeemed because they were set up to be villians through and through, and the redemption arc is handled poorly. But with Zuko, he was always meant to be set up for redemption from the get go, so the creators knew how to plan out his arc and make it convincing.
Zuko's arc works because ATLA doesn't end with Crossroads of Destiny and Zuko has to work for the forgiveness of the gaang whom he's directly/indirectly hurt.
I don't think Zuko's arc was a redemption arc at all, it was an arc about healing from trauma.
He never needed redeeming, because, as we're constantly shown in flashbacks, he was always a cinnamon roll. His "redemption" consists of him groveling in apology for things he had no meaningful control over at all, which is classic abuse-victim behavior.
In the animation fandoms it seems like EVERY redemption arc gets compared to prince Zuko and its become a pet peeve to me because every character has a unique story and role in their shows so I'd like to see less comparison and more appreciation for unique stories
Agree!
Its why i hate avatar fans even though I'm a fan myself
I think people just want to see the story beats. You see why he's bad, why he should change, how he changes, how changing wasn't easy, the effort he puts in, and finally the fruits of his redemption. Seeing the whole process and seeing it be well written, is so fucking rare.
@USCAN14 Can you list a few please
Difference. His redemption-arc was all his own self-reflection and took 2 1/2 seasons worth of episodes. Even when he decides to defect, that takes time too.
Why is Sansa even on a list for Redemption arcs when she wasn't even an evil character or inherently bad or anything?
Yeah, I am sure there's a nuance answer here but really it's because she's a girly girl who doesn't fight or snark at people. People really don't like teenage girls.
@Erwin Lii agree
People think you need to be redeemed from being a teen girl now. I'm not surprised.
She was a woman who actually wanted things...isn't that inherently evil?!
I don't know if its a redemption in the sense of evil, but maybe in the sense of her growth as a character from a brat to a more compassionate person that can be a more competent authority that isn't blinded by vanity and surface beauty. This is shown most sharply when she's with Cersei, the type of woman that Sansa could have become. At least as far as the books have shown me. I don't know what TV did.
I miss Death Note and Code Geass where Light Yagami didn't have this big tragic backstory...He used the Death Note because he was bored and he felt he was worthy of passing judgement. Not to mention that's the beauty of it, Light lived a cliche life so the other characters wouldn't suspect he is a murderer. And Code Geass doesn't gloss over the fact that Lelouch killed multiple people, he faced consequences.
Tragic backstory is becoming the preferred shorthand for the hack screenwriter!
That's also why I hated all the "Lelouch is alive" theories, even that they sort of teased at the end had me groaning. Lelouch should not have survived or been brought back. His story is over. He faced consequences for his actions, ones he accepted and put in motion.
Also, why I liked the Madoka Rebellion movie so much, cause like, it felt like the natural progression of the series and of a certain character and who at the end is messy as fuck and does something pretty bad. She makes for herself almost like a fake paradise or oasis that she knows is fragile as fuck and will be torn down eventually; and when it does, she'll face consequences for her actions, but until then she'll enjoy it.
I believe that they were statements about the effects of high class. They excels at what a modern japanese man is supposed to do well. They are studious, have a breath of knowledge, show good educate, they have a commanding presence, can solve problems, and can use their outstanding charisma to have people refer to them positively. With the life they are expected to have coming so easily, from accolades in school, to their ability to get girlfriends and be athletic, they naturally would become unattached to the world around them. Since it seems all naturally fall into place for them. Their stories explore them as messy and how it affects the world around them. I felt that they progressed naturally into what they would be. Light, a self-righteous sociopath. Lelouch, a symbol of imperialism. Though, I'm disappointed in how the stories handled Lelouch's failures, but that's another long post.
You know I never felt lelouch had to pay for his actions. Or rather I felt that the plot would often punish him for most of it.He did loose a lot in the show both in people and battles.
To me I always imagined he got away. I saw him smiling serenely and cockily to himself because he managed to pull it all off.
The man was a terrorist out for his own revenge not a hero of justice like zero. For me that's why the show wasn't called zero of the rebellion but Lelouch. I don't think he had to 'pay' for his sins because he was never a hero of justice to begin with.
And the real hero of Justice Suzukiuwas such a huge hypocrite. I think it was a deconstruction honestly.
@@starvaughnjackson6285 I never thought that Light Yagami would turn into a self-righteous sociopath. He seemed pretty nice and capable of understanding and helping others even after he decided to embark on his mission. I think he would have just become an amazing detective if he had never gotten The Death Note. Sure he might be bored because his life is perfect but he would still be as self-righteous as any of us. I never thought of it as a critique of Japanese businessman.
Everyone talks about Zuko, but there's another redemption story in Avatar: Iroh.
Everything Iroh does is as atonement for his crimes. He only realized the suffering he inflicted on other people when he experienced the same loss.
A lot of people forget Uncle Iroh, thank you for bringing this to my attention.
"Good and compelling characters do not always equal good people." Totally. These characters are interesting because of their flawed nature, and liking them doesn't necessarily have to say anything about you as a person. You can like horrible characters and the stories they're in.
I'm on this train of thought: Whether or not a character needs redemption doesn't actually matter. It's whether or not the creative team can make it work. And sometimes, just let them be villains and die.
But please, don't go the anti route. And by that, I mean don't harass actors and the creative teams, don't harass other fans and if you think sending death threats to a fellow human being over a fictional character, please step away and do some serious examination.
THIS!
Writing a female character, a protagonist, is such a hard job these days.
If you give her any real flaws or let her make mistakes crutial to the story... she's evil, not likeable (like Sansa - so many fans of GoT hate her for these very things).
If you don't... she's a Mary Sue.
Interestingly, there's no such distinction when it comes to male characters.
You shouldn't listen to people who compalin about such stupid things.
The whole mary sue is not valid criticism it is just thinly vailed mysoginy
Mary Sue was a term invented by a female author to mock the bad self-inserts of bad female authors of bad fan fiction (bad).
The problem is people are stupid especially people with incredibly antiquated notions dictated by societal expectations, which is most people, and it is almost all people who are very vocal about their opinions online and none of these things are conducive to nuanced, specific and reasonable discussions. For this reason Mary Sue has devolved into a sexist slur for a fictional female character, while other characters of the male persuasion are left largely untouched by accusations of annoying "perfection" even though you ask any nerd "who will win in a fight Batman or" they blurt out "BATMAN!" before you can finish the question or even add an ellipsis.
Also Luke Skywalker is more of a Mary Sue than Rey is.
No. Thinking about the hero fandom specifically, I think they just don't know how to write a good female lead. All likable female character are side characters. I don't know the reason for this though.
Main- Captain Marvel, Wonder Women, Cat Women
Side- Shuri , Scarlet witch, Black Widow, Gamora, Mystic, Valkryie
@@bitterestbird Maybe you would recognize that Gamora and Black Widow are not any more (or less) interesting than Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel if they had been main characters the whole time. I mean, I don't want to ascribe any pop-psychology to this, but I'm not seeing the stark difference this pro/con list is clearly intended to damningly realize.
@@futurestoryteller
1. Luke flew a T-16 Skyhopper, hence why he was able to fly an X-Wing. It was made by the same company.
2. He got his butt handed to him. HARD. And this is him with 4 years of self taught training and little training from Yoda.
3. It took him 4 years to even use force pull.
Maybe we like redemption arcs because inside we all see the ways in which we are villains and want that hope for ourselves.
That's honestly why I like them.
I think, "Huh, maybe if this piece of shit can change, I can too."
And I think its also because we want to believe that bad people (or people with bad traits) around us can change. That anyone can change, make up for their mistakes and become a better person.
@@leyagame583 Oh, absolutely.
It's pathetic thinking
@@jakemoore4851 Duly noted, thank you for your contribution.
Honestly, people not forgiving the redemption person is half the fun of redemption arcs. Spoilers for FMA manga, but when Scar was like "Woah, I can't believe you're helping me even though I've done terrible things" and she was like "Bitch, who said I forgave you? I'm just being a decent person." That was like the first time I saw that, and it was excellent. Also don't know if it counts as a redemption arc, but Utena's character development in the last episodes was chef's kiss. i wish more lead in media heroes had those types of devolepments.
@PagoDrink Exactly. It's important for media to remind folks that a person shouldn't revolve their entire redemption around getting their victims to forgive them.
MORE FMA SPOILERS ig: Also a lot to be said for Scar being a displaced Indigenous person (Ishvalan) whose people the imperialist Amestris military committed genocide against. FMA is also about Mustang and the other fighters in the Ishvalan War trying to, in some small part, attempt to make amends for their actions and hurt they caused even though they’ll never “make up” for it. THAT’S the kind of complicated character arc I love to see. Scar’s actions are rooted in the trauma of colonialism but him murdering Winry’s medic parents is STILL a bad thing. Our favorite characters in the military are the “good guys” but they’d also be war criminals in our world (and morally). I really love how much time Arakawa took to flesh out and write these issues and arcs instead of just having the characters say “oh, this is bad, but I’m good now” or something equally shallow like a lot of other narratives do.
Utena is such a fascinating take on the villain protagonist. She's probably the most moral member of the main cast and yet her own place as a villain is so vital to getting the full picture in my opinion. I just love how that show says that to revolutionize the world, you yourself have to be better.
I think we see a lot more Mais and Vaders than Zukos and Irohs - characters where their motivations for why they change, and getting them to change, is more important than the wrongs they have committed. I think that's a perfectly fine arc, but some audiences are really aching for an earned redemption, and Avatar showed how great that can be.
@@heckporter It says something that even Mustang said that if his revolution came to pass, all the state alchemists involved in the Isvalan war would have to be executed for war crimes. The main cast is well aware of what they did and seem willing to submit to justice if it comes.
@@griffenspellblade3563 And he included himself to be judged for war crimes. That's how dedicated he is to making reparations for his actions.
if they don't want me to root for regina they shouldn't have given her leather pants
This. Her outfits + Snow being uninteresting = evil Queen was the best thing
Also her theme and baddass walk
Right, she shouldn’t have been the most fun character in the entire show
I remember when I first started watching Mad Men I was a few seasons behind, and I read an interview with January Jones. The interviewer said something about Betty being clearly the least sympathetic character on the show. I was honestly expecting her to commit infanticide or something by the way this piece characterized her as irredeemable. When I caught up on the show, I remember just thinking, "huh??" Like, this interviewer was capable of seeing the tragic and human elements of Don, or even Pete (who I can't help but adore, speaking of problematic faves), but not Betty -- a housewife who is subject to infantilization, the pressures of picture-perfect womanhood, a cheating husband, and is discovering that the life the world has always told her she's supposed to want and be fulfilled by is a lie?
Female characters are hated a lot more than male characters. They are held to vastly different behavioural standards, and it's true across all shows. A female character could do as little as be mildly annoying or hurt someone's feelings once, and they'll act like she should be burnt at the stake. Take how people call Bojack vulnerable and relatable and despise Diane.
One other exemple would be skyler white. Skyler is meant to be percieved as annoying and easily hateable because we as an audience believe at tge starting of the show that walter is doing this for a greater good. As the show hoes on we seemingly little by little join walter as truly unleashes his horrible actions and characteristics. At that point, and only then we realize the horror skyler is being put through and we finally sympathise with her.
Unless, not. She is still the most hated character in the entire series. Well, maybe some of the bed guys are objectively seen as worse, but not on of those characters recieves as much reasurence of their monstrosity online like skyler does. It's an infinite source of jokes and mokery. I could go to that scene on youtube where walt helps her on the phone inbfront of the police and the comments would say this is all because she fucked ted. She recieves morr backlash from that then walt does for poisoning a child, or dragging his family in a dangerous drug impire when he could have stopped. Why? I think we all know the answear to that.
I'm just trying to imagine anybody defending a male character who hits his children for mouthing off.
@@futurestoryteller that person is someone who does the same as the character they are defending.
@@ilincabogza You seriously can't even decipher why I left that comment
SpiderMan Into the spider-verse surprised me in that area, you can sympathize with Kingpin but the movie never redeems his actions.
And also gave us a female villain who just gets to Be Bad without giving her a tragic past and/or daddy issues.
@@SirThinks2Much yall stop reminding just how good of a movie spiderverse is now I'm gonna have to go on my 17th rewatch damn.
Surprised in what area. That's just a normal well written villain. I don't see how it connects to redemption arc narratives.
@@Theyungcity23 What, don't you know that if you make any effort to understand or humanize Bad People™, their Sin™ will contaminate you? Because, as we all know, Sin™ is a contagious disease that spreads through psychic vectors, or something.
Homelander is the best example of this. He is just the worst a person can be but the writters manage to make him complicated and human, while at the same time fully condeming him.
I love all the emphasis on redemption stories that AREN'T big, single moment switches. Because I think we need stories about moral growth, but the problem comes when it is portrayed as a single flip from Official Villain to Official Hero. In real life, you might have big epiphanies or turning points, but you need to work your way up to them and work hard afterwards to incorporate those epiphanies into your life. It's gradual and takes practice. Realistic character growth is often not considered a Redemption Arc (TM) because it downplays those flips, or even ignores them completely. This is why nobody from the cast of The Good Place was on that list of best Redemption Arcs, despite having four seasons of solid redemption.
@Drexel Petrone For real though! But if Game of Thrones and Star Wars both got multiple entries, they totally could have put "Everybody but Janet" in first place. (Not that Janet wasn't great, just that she was never evil)
This is probably one of the reasons I actually liked the 2019 version of A Christmas Carole, even though it isn't really redemption arc but it leads to the beginning of one.
i really like this comment, i don't have anything to add, i just want to easily be able to find this comment again lol
Very true, I'll be trying to keep this in mind as a writer
Yessss,I loved The Good Place’s redemption arc for each character and I can never fully explain my love for it, especially Michael’s, he’s an amazing example of slow,amazing and kind of (b/c he’s a demon so not really) realistic progression of a redemption arc.
Then later in s4 we get that character(that I can’t remember the name of currently) who they said was terrible in their experiment of the good place,he was terrible and very misogynistic and racist at times so they never gave him the “character development” that some other shows do(but they did show how there’s a possibility he’s not completely horrible and can change) which was refreshing.
It took me a whole five minutes to remember what the hell Sansa ever did, and even now it's like 🤷🏻♀️a child in a impossible situation who wanted to believe in fairytales??? I think it's more of a good character arc for a coming of age (in a fictional completely harsh universe) than an actual redemption.
Anyway love all of the anime references can't wait to hear your thoughts on Yashahime 💕
True, she had character gowth, but not a redemption arc, cause she didn't need one. People are stupid and think that cause she was annoying, she was evil🤦🏻♀️
@@angelagarcia7093 yup.
"Impossible" situation is... giving her a little too much credit.
I mean, bottom line, you're right, but... tell the truth. It can be hard sometimes, but impossible is... generous.
Not only that she was a child who fully internalized the extremely limited role in society she was supposed to occupy. Her love of fairy tales is part of her naïve understanding that as long as she is the perfect little woman than everything will be alright. This is a naivety that is actively encouraged by the people around her and is part of what makes her susceptible to manipulation. Sansa more than most characters in GoT a victim of their harshly patriarchal structure.
@@SchulzEricT Impossible because Sansa generally did not have a choice. Things were decided for her by adults with immense power. The few, almost inconsequential choices Sansa did make she did not have the skills or background to make a truly informed decision. She was a literal child. And even if she wasn't a child there was NO correct answer for her to make. She could not save her father. Could she have run into the woods and tried to live like Arya? Maybe. But it would be very hard to believe. Her red hair would make her stand out, and she did not have the skills Arya had. She would likely die one way for another. So don't call me a liar, thanks.
“He grew up off-screen and stopped being a hateful person. Unlike JK Rowling” 🤣
This summarizes my thoughts on Billy in Stranger Things. Like you can throw all the sad "I miss my angelic mom and my dad was abusive" flashbacks at me all you want, but that's not gonna make me forget what a racist and abusive POS he was in Season 2.
I think Steve Harrington in S1 had an actual redemption arc, especially in comparison w Billy. It’s on a much smaller scale, but we actually see him pivot from being a callous jerk who cares more what his shitty friends think of him to a guy who makes genuine friendships with people who aren’t “cool”.
Billy's redemption was so forced
@@armandopena4929 billy had a redemption???
@@user-xh6eg1ts1t Well, sort of... In S3, Eleven enters into Billy's mind to free him from the monster, and she starts to see past memories of him, showing he was a good guy that was just treated badly. Throughout the whole series he was only portrayed as an assh0le bully, only to show in his final moments that he was good in the inside. I think that was too rushed and undeveloped 😒
@@armandopena4929 oh right! oh my god I totally forgot about that. yeah, no, I thought it was so weird that they humanized him like that after his entire storyline and stuff was him being like a cartoon villain.
While I know people can be bad without this being based in trauma, I can't believe it is in anybody's nature. They learn it through being taught bad ideology, being fed misinformation, and having their bad deeds go unpunished or rewarded while good deeds go unnoticed and unrewarded or even punished.
So the problem with Kylo for me is that the people who were closest to Kylo, his family, are our heroes. And so the story of how Ben could come to be Kylo should be a really interesting one, because one would presume he should have been insulated, but the trilogy is so uninterested in this question. It's like they just wanted to have him be related to the OG for the family drama and eugenicism of it, but they forgot that they should maybe add some actual substance.
This. And understanding why someone is behaves a certain way does not excuse what they did. But it does help to help these people get better. This also ties into things like prison reform
I don't think what you're describing is the same thing as trauma.
@@kat8559 No, it isn't. I think that's what they're saying - Kylo not only doesn't have trauma, he grew up around people that we have been told are not just nice, loving individuals but HEROES. So...what's his deal? How did he go wrong?
@@emilymoran9152 Yeah, that was exactly what I was trying to say.
@@emilymoran9152 His uncle tried to kill him in his sleep, for seemingly no reason.
My main problem with discussions about redemption and atonement in fiction (especially with more... problematic characters) is that at times it feels like it becomes a math problem. Someone will say that character X's actions have redeemed them, while another will respond that no, what they did before was too much. A third one says that their circumstances at least absolve or excuse part of their faults, and it ends with everybody discussing what the character should do to atone and how much or how little, as if it's an equation with a definite set of parameters instead of a storytelling issue.
I saw this post online and the gist was "is it not enough to just like problematic characters fall in love in their problematic relationships? Hand in unlovable hand?" And a handful of reblogs were "oh my god what is wrong with you people you're sick" like what the heck?? Your character interests dont reflect your morals excuse me-
Yeah, this is becoming a problem. People’s morality aren’t just getting judged based on fictional things, they’re punished for it. Look at what happened in the Hamilton fandom. A group of shippers blackmailed, doxxed and harassed anyone who shipped a ship that wasn’t theirs, and their whole argument was that it was immoral and promoted child abuse. Or even in the Star Wars fandom.
Don't forget that Jason Isaacs admitted in an interview that he chose to bully Draco on screen (as Lucius) to make Tom more sympathetic to the viewers
Edit: link to interview th-cam.com/video/rX4pOuiTt5I/w-d-xo.html
Hmm.... I see.
I remember Chamber of Secrets introduces Lucius with his fancy staff sternly on Draco's shoulder. My mind always registered Draco's flinch as a knee-jerk reaction to abuse
"I'm sorry, I got angry. It's something I'm working on."
Grace and Simon both had perfect character arcs. People tend to think a character arc is only the character getting better, but a character getting worse can be equally compelling, and in Infinity Trains case, highlighted the character’s individual agencies by having Simon and Grace’s arcs mirror each other. What I’m saying is it was masterful, go watch Infinity Train.
Agreed. A character plunging into villainy can be compelling when executed well. I’ll maintain that Anakin’s fall to the dark side had the elements of a good story; it just wasn’t told very well.
And then there's shows like She-Ra, where the same characters get better *and* worse. Really, the shackle of positive-only character arcs is behind the monolithicness of the popular conception of the “redemption arc”, but it goes back to more fundamental simplifications of morality, dividing life into bad and good and then assuming that rational people seek out the good - all, in the end, used to justify the reclassification of ally vs enemy as good vs evil.
I guess what's poking at my brain with Infinity Train, is why does Simon (and the other villains) die so gruesomely?
@@gota7738 They reap what they sow. All the villains who died gruesome deaths spent their screentime cultivating an aura of violence by performing (or attempting to perform) similarly violent acts, until there was literally nothing else that could have happened to them. There is no future where Simon has the epiphany Grace did, because he explicitly rejects that.
That doesn't really answer why it's so gruesome, but I think that's just a consequence of the tone of the show. I mean, if any of them get a less gruesome end than what happened to Atticus in S1, it would feel… incongruous.
@@Pablo360able But could he have not had an epiphany and then still not die, gruesomely or otherwise, in that scene?
Like the aura is an atmospheric thing, but does that make their gruesome deaths inevitable?
I suppose given that he's affirmed he'll continue living an aggressive, violent lifestyle, the chances of him dying in that manner eventually was incredibly high.
However why was it important that we the audience witness it?
For me personally, I believe any villain can be redeemed if that's the direction the narrative wishes to go.
If an antagonist willingly chooses to recognise and make the right choice, and be better, then they are redeemed.
Redemption is the choice of the individual, forgiveness the choice of others.
Nor do I believe it should be a reflection upon people, for at the end of the day, it is fiction.
Fiction does not equate reality.
Pretty much.
Exactly. Remeption is something personal. Like, the character dont do anything good because he thinks 'oh i'm gonna redeem myself' it's because they feel they have to do something right, change themselves, save someone, etc they dont search for anyones approval and thats redemption i think.
Plus, she doesnt get the force and the dark side and the light concepts. Star Wars world is different from our world. Thats why Star Wars is based on redemption. Because its so easy to fall to the dark side... But the Skywalker family is so emotional that they fall to the dark side and then turn back to the light because of love. Thats so beautiful and amazing. If you think Darth Vader is not redeemable you dont understand Star Wars sorry.
One of my favorite redemption arcs is Faith Lehane from the Buffyverse.
Female characters are rarely afforded the opportunity for redemption and atonement the way Faith was. Not to mention, when she does bad things you can see that it's killing her and when she finally feels all of the pain and anguish from her past actions, she decides to be a hero.
👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾
FAITH’S REDEMPTION ARC IS SUPERIOR
I was thinking about BtVS during this video, but I was thinking about Angel and Spike, who have very explicit redemption arcs, and need to work VERY hard because of the sheer volume of the horrible things they've done. Arguments could be made that neither of them are fully redeemed by the end of the show. I can't believe I completely forgot about Faith, who has to actively choose to atone for her misdeeds and redeem herself, despite all her struggles. Her arc is a hell of a lot stronger than Angel's
Female characters are always held to different, higher standards of morality.
@@livandlaf Really? That’s a pretty hot take. Do you mind explaining? I would definitely consider her arc stronger than Spike’s but not Angel’s necessarily.
I want to grab quite a few people and shake them while screaming, "Dying after doing *one good thing* after a bunch of literal war crimes is not redemption!" Living with, and putting work in to undo, what you've done, is. Death as redemption as a trope needs to die, ironically.-
I feel the redemption equals Death trope is just the easiest writing? Like, if Darth Vader lived, he'd have to be put on trial and executed, probably on orders of his daughter. That's so messy and complicated
I hate the Death Equals Redemption thing bc the atonement part that comes after is always more interesting to me. Whether it's exploring who the redeemed person can or can't interact with (because they harmed said people and they made boundaries, to be clear), or seeing them struggle to find a new place in a new self paradigm, that's the stuff that grabs my interest. There's so much that can be done that the death just throws away and it frustrates me every time I see it.
@@vanilloia7479 honestly even as a kid I just found the whole "and then he got to exist as a force ghost" so damn funny. Man's did one good thing and got the bonus ticket to the afterlife.
@@kingsaracoon9594 ye olde catholic loophole
@@vanilloia7479 Ye olde Christian loophole. Catholic's insist you need confession before death to enter heaven. See why Macbeth refused to kill his uncle after he just left confession. He would have died with a clean soul and Macbeth didn't want that.
"2 bros chilling in the hot tub. 5 Feet apart cause they are NOT GAY"
LMFAO I'm dying 🤣
That part broke me 😂🤣
No homo social distancing
i felt sad about this because i would almost definitely do this with a friend to feel rich and be annoying and need to yell and i wouldn't want anyone to think i wasn't gay :(
It’s also worth mentioning that Vegeta did go to hell in the after life rather than heaven so we know for a fact that he hasn’t worked off his sins
also if you have been keeping up the the latest dragonball manga vegeta has stated he knows he's gonna go to hell when he dies and theres no changing that, yet he still continues to defend earth, recently in the latest arc they went back to namek and hakf the arc was vegeta defending the namekians and feeling remorse for his past genoside.
i know death is kinda meaningless in dragonball cause of the dragon balls but it was still nice to see, even though vegeta is technically redeamed he still knows what he did was inexcusable and he's going to hell when he dies.
But Kylo Ren imagined his father forgiving him. Are you saying that isn’t enough?
😭 BRO-
No, he still needed Rey to give him a kiss.
And then he died because she has terrible hygiene.
Kylo himself said its a memory, (i would call it a hallucination) so his father didn't forgive him exactly...
THAT BITCH FORGIVES HIMSELF!
And i hope you are joking btw
@@hell_crow9023 pretty sure they were joking.
@@hell_crow9023 Self-forgiveness is important.
I hate when people apply this need for redemption to living humans and not fictional characters. For example, I've see way too many people who blame Shannan Watts for Chris Watts killing her and their children, because she yelled at him on camera. The fact that any people are trying to justify Chris' behavior because his wife was mean to him and didn't accept him for who he is makes my head feel like exploding .
These are probably the same people that think Ted Bundy was hot, Wtf.
The "Draco was actually abused" always irked me a lot, not only because literally the one thing we knew about the family is that they cared to each other (repeatedly), but because literally the backstory of the main character is one of being abused by his wealthy family, and not only it did not amount to anything for him, people even had no issue with blaming him for the faults of the biological father he never grew up with. Sorry for the rent, but the double standard was a bit too personal, reminding the difference reactions toward my bullies actions and my reactions. Also, in hindsight, the idea that Draco became good off-screen and his racism wasn't an issue and was solved by not adressing it was really indicative of j.k.'s nature.
YES! i was always so put off with everyone being in love with draco because he was clearly racist and mean to the people around him and was also born with a large amount of privilege.
@@rhskandbclakendlcksnenkend4302 Its hard to write young bigoted or myogynistic characters when risking the fact that people might like them or fall in love with those characters while not acknowledging it as a bad trait. People tend to play it off as them just being a bit edgy to tone down this conflicting fact.
I knew you would talk about Karofsky. Honestly, I hate his “redemption” arc. The only thing I took from that was that gay people oppress themselves until they ready to accept themselves and yikes...I needed the hateful person to just be hateful maybe eventually apologizing and realize what he did but not be gay. He could have been an ally if they need him to redeem himself, but not gay.
Obviously I felt very strong about this and had to get it off my chest...
The show Kipo and the WonderBeasts is just one long redemption for practically every single person you meet. But, I think a pretty good one that explores the themes you highlighted. Also, its got great music, pretty art, and its very funny
ugh that cartoon is sooo good!
Redemption arcs can be done, and people can change ... but it has to be done in a right and realistic way.
Regarding the difference in prevalence of redemption in anime vs. western media, I wonder if it also has to do with collectivist cultures vs individualist cultures. Now, obviously, to reduce eastern cultures to this one paradigm can be messy and myopic, but in broad strokes, collectivism tends to define behaviour as a product of situational factors and with that comes more acceptance of change in different social contexts. Individualism, on the other hand tend to ascribe to a view that peoples' behaviour represents inherent aspects of their character. Bringing it back to redemption, if a character's evil actions are viewed as inherent to who they are, as is the perspective under individualism, they require a much more thorough redemption. Whereas a culture that identifies the potential for aspects of someone's character to be influenced by their situation, and thus not a reflection of some inherent evil, might be more accepting of less intensive redemption arcs.
Anyways, I loved the video! Lots of food for thought!
Mean, hateful people probably ARE suffering a lot of the time. Many DO seem to be insecure and fearful, and it can't be fun to live like that. But "hurting" doesn't equal "good"! You don't get a pass just because you are bad at processing your emotions - and especially not if you've had more opportunities to learn that or less overall pain than the average person.
I think that the fascination with redemption gives people hope that everybody can be redeemed. That there's a kernel of goodness that can be unearthed and fostered. And not with a shitload of therapy, hard work and meds, but by seeing the light/having a pivotal moment
13:49
There’s an important distinction between “ *characters* can just be bad” and “ *real people* can just be bad.”
People seem to mix up those distinctions when talking about fiction and real life, thinking actual people can be entirely “problematic,” and fictional characters must have easily understandable/sympathetic reasons for their behavior.
Personally, I don’t think cancel culture is the worst thing in the world (if you disagree with someone’s opinions or see them harming others-intentionally or not-refusing to support them makes sense. Trying to get everyone else to follow suit, while a bit murkier, is understandable-we all want people to believe what we do, and it tracks that the same holds true for strangers on the Internet.), but it leads to polarized conceptions of personhood and morality that can cause as much harm as said “problematic” people.
People are complicated, art is a reflection of a person, therefore art will always be imperfect in the eyes of others. Art is self-care, and under no obligation to be ‘perfect’; especially when perfection is contingent upon being consistent with everyone else’s own idea of the story.
I get that critiquing, debating, and theorizing about art is fun-hell, I’m writing the 200+ page equivalent of a fan fic for fun-but it’s important to separate fun discourse from making demands of the creators with the expectation of their compliance.
I am so happy I have never seen the "lilo is abusive" discourse
Straight up, seriously what the heck? That is an eight year old. Stop. Also I'm pretty sure as a kid my reaction lilo getting angry at stitch was just "no hes just trying to help :(" no kid at that age would go "LILO IS EVIL NOW FOREVER"
@@kingsaracoon9594 literally one of the craziest shit I've seen attributed to twitter
I actually always thought of the way Darth Vader dies as an ending to his character arc (though it’s only really an arc because of the prequels). I really like how his story comes to an end, but I’ve never viewed it as redemption. I just see it as him finally fulfilling the destiny he was told he had since he was a child. However, I’m very biased because he’s my favorite Star Wars character.
I loved this! I'm not sure why we're so obsessed with deifying and valorizing these incredibly harmful male characters, especially when (like you've said) we have no intention of giving the same Grace to women (not to mention black women in particular). Great video!
You are wrong just see azula in last air bender
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl She's an exception.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl interesting that your immediate reaction to my commentary is to discredit me, without even a hint of consideration for what I have to say. Interesting indeed..
@@serenity6831 I took what you said and pointed out were you are wrong is that people are just as willing glorify such women to not just men
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl @Mohamed Ramadan except that doesn't make me wrong at all. You're denouncing my entire statement because "well women too", as is the typical way for bad faith nobodies online. What I said still holds: society overwhelmingly wants to redeem harmful male characters all the time. More to the point, Azula isn't a black woman, who are the focus of my statement. You pointed out an *exception*, that in no way negates the fact I stated.
I'm way more lenient on Darth Vader's arc than Kylo's because the original trilogy to me has always been more mythological than allegorical, if that makes any sense. The sequel series characters were people and not archetypes, and it feels like it's trying to Say Something (even if they're very confused about what that is), and those things grounded it to the real world in a way that made it distinctly at odds with the type of broad thematic storytelling that carries the original trilogy. The sequels can't pull off the same trick with Kylo as the OT did with Vader because the sequels set themselves up in such a different way.
The sequels were just a disorganized mess and couldn't achieve any kind of cohesive message or thought-out plan.
Anakin also had four movies and two TV shows' worth of backstory that examined _how_ he became Vader.
Kylo was crutching on "Let's hope the audience gets Anakin/Vader vibes and just assumes he's gonna turn good" instead of putting in the effort.
I just always felt like Vader had more humanizing qualities to him than Kylo did, which might make one more lenient on his arc. Vader could have done far more terrible things to Luke, but chose not to. He wanted to have his son with him, admittedly for selfish and malevolent reasons, but he didn't want to kill him. He was just too profoundly sunk in the mire of his own descent to darkness to really go beyond the "Well, we can destroy the Emperor together, and be happy families while ruling the Galaxy! That's totally how to do this father-son bonding thing, right?" until the end, where he sacrificed himself for Luke.
Also, of course, in the Prequel Trilogy we get to see how Anakin's descent into the Dark Side was a horrible mess of grooming, lies, and a whole lot of other terrible business, so there's some sympathy for him there, as well. We have a man who loved too much, and loved foolishly, to his ultimate doom. He's a good man with flaws, who made one last terrible choice that condemned him for the rest of his life.
Kylo Ren, on the other hand, just reads like a terrible spoiled brat. Yes, it is implied that he too had Palpatine's voice in his proverbial ear his whole life, but unlike Anakin, he wasn't someone who was being radicalized due to a life of loss and oppression. He hadn't lost his mother traumatically, he wasn't a slave for almost his entire childhood, he wasn't part of an extremely restrictive faith order that told him that having emotional attachment was dangerous, he wasn't fighting a war that turned out to be a maliciously engineered coup, he has apparently none of the trauma that broke down Anakin.
Instead, what we see (mind you, I went hard pass on Rise of Skywalker, so I might be missing on some details that were shown there) is a person who was already so far gone that Luke "There *is* good in you, Father" Skywalker feels for even a fraction of a moment that there's no way to redeem his nephew when he touches Ben's mind. Luke feels that there's no way back, that the best thing for everyone would be to put his own nephew down like a rabid animal, when the Luke we've seen throughout the Original Trilogy always tries to look for the good in people. And we see that Kylo's immediate response to this is not only violence against the man who was planning to kill him, but to massacre the entire Jedi school as well. He escalates of his own free will, unlike Vader who always just seemed to be following orders, albeit to an extreme.
Kylo Ren is damaged, but also not traumatized, so there's less to prompt a sympathetic reaction toward him. He may have had a little evil voice in his head for his entire formative years, but we are given that he willingly listened to it without questioning this as wrong or dangerous, until it led to him being so tainted that it was perhaps better he die before he caused more damage. Darth Vader is, at his core, someone who is *traumatized* in addition to being damaged, someone who made his bad choices when it seemed there was no other alternative. He is someone who does the right thing out of paternal love, just as his failings came about because of love twisted into possessive wrath, and so he seems someone people can empathize more with.
@@Mokiefraggle i see what you mean and I honestly think if they had written everything better and with clear intentions, things would have been 100 times better. I don’t want to sound pedantic and annoying but it is canon (though on a series of comics very little people would actually know or care to read) that Kylo didn’t kill his former classmates and was actually Palpatine or something like that (I haven’t had the opportunity to read them as they are not published on my country yet) who started the fire on the academy.
I really enjoy Kylo’s/Ben Solo’s character and his whole journey but I have to confess and be honest with myself with all the incongruent sh*t they wrote. I think the idea was to have a kind of reverse Vader story with him but, in my opinion, they did a terrible job and they should have induced that earlier on the films so we could have seen more about his internal debate IN the movies and not via some comics. They were definitely not bold enough therefore I understand people disliking the character and not vibing with him.
Hope I made some kind of sense! It’s kind of difficult to condense and express ones arguments and ideas. And just to clarify, I’m not trying to lecture or convince anybody to become a Kylo fan, I just thought I could contribute with this piece of info to this really interesting (and controversial) debate. Have a good one!
P.s.: I also wanted to add that Kylo reflects similar behavior as Vader and Luke in terms of his relationship with Rey, as in wanting her on his side and trying to convince her to rule the galaxy and forget everybody else. But it kind of is more complicated. In conclusion, everything is a mess and I don’t really know anything 😅
@@gloriavvaa9043 Yeah, I consider Disney's whole weird insistence on making huge chunks of backstory accessible only if you're willing to shell out for novels, comics, etc., to be absurd, money-grubbing, and a sign of poor writing. They did it for Star Wars, after making sure it was loudly and aggressively proclaimed that anything outside the films and Clone Wars/Rebels/whatever other TV series was now Legends and no longer canon, which means *who the heck is going to buy that stuff, if you've said that books and comics don't matter?* It was kinda okay-er when they did it for Pirates of the Caribbean, because it was easy to take things at face value there, and if you wanted to read a bunch of kids' books about the adventures of a young Jack Sparrow culminating in how he eventually made his deal with Davey Jones, then you could make the choice to do it. It didn't have to be required reading, which is what the Star Wars movie tie-in comics/novels feels like.
If you're not confident that your point is getting across in how you write your films...maybe don't write them like that? Don't oblige your fanbase to read a bunch of outside media to make your films coherent, especially when you've declared any media not your films to be lies and unreality. Just write your *films,* the main media of the franchise, in a way that makes your characters, plot, and the interweaving between the story parts coherent and cohesive. Also, of course, if you're setting out to write a trilogy, maybe make it a coherent story arc and timeline, instead of three weirdly spaced, weirdly paced, totally disjointed films that don't make up any sort of cohesive whole? TLJ felt like two, possibly three entire separate films congealed into one vague, untenable mass, and felt like it totally missed on 99% of characterization for most of the characters as we'd established them in the previous film.
The shirt is both incredibly appropriate and incredibly adorable. And this is a conversation that needs to be had more and more in today’s media landscape.
It extends way beyond this one issue, but I both appreciate really *really* dislike what the current age of social discourse has done to how many consume media.
My first encounter of hating how redemption arcs are done in media had to be in OUAT. I was an evil regal to the core and truly loved Regina’s character for all of her strengths and flaws. She was a complex character whose choices were sometimes messy and weren’t always understood by the other characters or even the audience. So I was so pissed when OUAT decided that Regina Mills and the Evil Queen were two separate entities that had to be split up and that was her redemption. It take away her accountability and the complexity of the character and putting a bandaid on all the horrible things she’s done. It basically trying to make her more digestible ppl and it irritated me so much. I take too much sorry
I'm so glad you mentioned Infinity Train, like you GET IT
Simon was a great character BECAUSE he didn't choose redemption, and Grace is a great character because she DID. The contrast is VITAL
Also Season 3 was the best (season 2 is a close second for me) and I loved grace and Simon's story
I felt like shaking the monitor because Simon had so many chances and I wish he just took one
Great video! The idea of redemption is actually harmful IMO. If a person believes they are 'beyond redemption' or 'too far gone', they are less likely to change their ways. It's why I love Darth Vader's turn. No, he's not 'redeemed' now. The message is 'it's never too late to do a good thing'. Calculating X good deeds and Y bad deeds to determine a person's ultimate standing is meaningless and unhelpful, either for the people they've hurt or that person's chances of bettering themselves.
Exactly. As Kamala Khan put it, "'Good' is not a thing you are, it's a thing you do."
The whole "villains must suffer and be punished for their sins" thing is police-state logic.
“My mom taught me from a young age, there’s no saving them all, some problems grown too far to be solved.” - Vince Staples, a great rapper.
Love this video.
One of my favourite “redemption” arcs was Angel. Which sort of influenced my pov on all of this. The show is pretty explicit in that Angel can’t really redeem himself, he himself says as much. And that trying to do better is the point. Not expecting some reward at the end. A core point that is hammered down on when Angel signs away his potential future “reward” so that he could stop the bbegs. And the show doesn’t give it back to him either. Faith also from the Angel/Buffyverse - her arc was great and has her and Angel actually talking about how there won’t really be any forgiveness, but they can still do better.
Theologically, the idea that Angel needs redemption when, as a soulless vampire, he was explicitly deprived of his moral faculties, is fairly suspect.
@@ColonelGreen true, but as the show repeatedly demonstrates all the aspects of angelus are still present withinn him, even with his soul he's done some bad shit. The point isn't that angel is responsible for what angelus did, rather that he has to work to ensure that the demon inside him isn't the one in control of his actions.
Whenever I hear people say that redemption arcs are bad and villains should be killed, all I can think of is all those cop shows where things like "due process" (and human rights in general) are portrayed as annoying obstacles to keeping Bad People™ off the streets.
If we're obsessed with redemption, it's because because our culture is obsessed with punishment.
Oh damn, I love this take so much.
That's what i hate the most about cop shows(well i watch them but i hate that part of them): the cops are always saint, they always "know" and following the law is always an obstacle
It's not that i don't like "rowdy" type of cop/think every single established regulation is good, or that those shows should be full of racist cop/cop who never defy unjust orders/follow the wrowd effect but is one case of "not following the protocol" leading to a mistake other than "boo hoo the villain left no real proof for us to prove our hunch" too much?
Yee-ikes, glad I never got into those.
The only one I would consider is Brooklyn Nine-Nine.
So glad it's finally out I'm tired of the obsession with redemption I want corruption arcs show me a character morally failing I promise I'll love it
The Last of Us part 2.
the dragon prince
NXT, Johnny Gargano. He starts a baby face, gets betrayed, fights his best friend and goes Darkside, turns face, gets screwed by Finn Balor and turns heel again, permanently, because his heroism wasn't getting him anywhere.
Also his wife Candice LeRae who is a minor character, until Johnny turns heel at the end, where she gets sick of being rent a friend for the other women.
I said Infinity Train, but I just now realize that she talks about it in the video.
Gosh, my worst fear with Endeavor is that the series is gonna frame it like all his children need to forgive him for abusing their family or they're evil. It's one of the only story arcs about an abusive parent trying to change where their kid doesn't have to immediately forgive them. Going by the anime alone, his wife and daughter have already forgiven him (because women don't get to have complicated serious emotions or be as important as the boys in bnha), but Shoto and Natsuo aren't jumping to forgive him so quickly. I just don't want them to have Dabi show up and be like 'Well I don't forgive my dad's abuse and I'm a murderer' and have Shoto and Natsuo forgive him like only evil people don't forgive their abuser instead of letting it stay complicated.
Why am I not shocked that the female family members are the ones that immediately forgive him. I'm telling you that people greatly overhyped MHA female characters saying much better they are than most shounen or how much better they are than Naruto female characters. When really MHA is just as bad as Naruto when it comes to sidelining its female characters.
@@PrincessLioness Honestly, in terms of numbers MHA actually has a 3:1 guys to girls ratio and naruto and most other shonen has a solid 2:1 so it's generally worse in that respect. Then on top of that, for every midlly important thing a girl is doing at least 5 dudes are doing something equally or more important and with more screen time. I love MHA, but anyone who tells you it's good at its female characters is lying
@@deahdirectah I know I just remember how many people hyped it up to be better than other Shounen notably Naruto (Naruto is the series that everyone singles out for the poor writing with the female characters even thought there are others just as bad). It was praised for doing the bare minimum of not having the female characters only exist as a love interest (Ochako is better than Sakura in that regard), but just like Naruto and others the female characters are ultimately irrelevant, lack agency, and are not as complex as the males save for one or two. I think TPN and AOT subvert this though it’s interesting that they are not battle shounen.
@@PrincessLioness Ugh yes I want to like MHA but the glaring lack of meaningful plot for female characters gets me every time. (I haven't watched AOT, but it was great having a female protagonist in TPN that wasn't being constantly steamrolled by male characters as often happens.)
Your fears didn't come true! His children keep him on his toes, at least in the manga.
Moralising media readings are so harmful to fiction Jesus. Entire shows are made unenjoyable purely by fans' reactions. I loved this video so much, thank you for this forward
There's a very old usage of "redemption" that existed and that is in the sense of "buying back" (ie redeeming a coupon, or buying back a slave from their owner). I don't view Darth Vader's "redemption" as anything other than his son "buying back" his freedom from the Emperor. The prequels started with Anakin as a slave and the original trilogy ended with him being freed from that fate; his redemption has nothing to do with ATONEMENT for his crimes.
"...unlike JK Rowling." I died.
I think it's absolutely worth mentioning how much narratives about "fixing" your partner, especially being a woman who fixes a man, plays into this fandom discourse and characters who are men especially in media that primarily appeals to women. Great video as always
Redemption arcs done well are really great in a story telling aspect I think.
But I have no problem liking evil characters who are rotten to the core because I don't see it as q reflection of myself or my morals.
It's fiction. To be consumed for entertainment (can also teach you something but I don't believe it needs to)
Exactly
Great video! I really liked Catra's redemption arc cause she tries to do that one big noble sacrifice, but unlike Vader it doesn't actually kill her, which is super interesting cause she's forced to do the work of seeing Adora, Entrapta, and all the people she hurt, and actually putting in continuous effort to be better. I think that's such a better message, cause it means that goodness isn't about one big moment, it's about all the emotional labor and day to day effort required to change.
PS: Also sorta related but not really, I love that Entrapta and Hordak shirt! Where'd you get that?
I think a good example of women getting punished more for behavior that would be excused in a dude is also Kikyo. Her character motivations and actions aren’t any worse than Sesshomaru - arguably she has more redeeming qualities - but the way she’s treated, in show and especially in fandom, is so much harsher.
Also Yashahime is one big yikes I can’t wait to watch you talk about it.
I'm caught up on the MHA manga and I'm adoring the way Endeavors character arc is going. He doesnt need to be forgiven, he seeks to atone and is doing his best to be the number 1 hero everyone needs. But a lot of people hate it. I get if the subject hits close to home, but all people deserve to properly atone whether the people they've hurt forgive them or not.
Harry Potter Fanfiction culture made those books way better and more inclusive then they actually were, honestly. The in-fighting was ridiculous but the fandom was lush.
Which would you recommend?
@@christopherb501 I've been out of the game with that fandom for a long time, but generally the shipping of Sirius/Lupin was huge I don't even know if most of the old sites I used to frequent still exist...Like the Leaky Cauldron. Generally I'd say the Harry Potter Musical and the fan band stuff was lots of fun, Harry and the potters and Draco and the Malfoys I recall the most. Fanart by Makani. Like so many kids made great art in the fandom it was a good time that can't be killed by the authors fuckery.
I'm only five minutes into this but I am so glad you're talking about this. I have been seeing this issue of people "canceling" characters a lot lately and been feeling really frustrated about it and at just the general lack of critical analysis. Like what make fiction interesting is that characters have flaws, that doesn't mean you have to like them but we can't expect every single character in a story to be a perfect angel or there would be no plot/conflict/lesson to take away.
I hate when stories give people redemption arcs but interrupt them apologizing to the people they’ve hurt, even if they’ve already forgiven them. Let people genuinely apologize in fiction so people can learn what apologies are meant to be in real life. It’s even worse that a lot of times when you do hear an apology in fiction it’s when the character doesn’t forgive them. I’d rather the narrative be that forgiveness from the harmed party isn’t guaranteed but an apology is always necessary
In United States-ian media there is a powerful tendency to make villains proactive and heroes reactive meaning that villains actions reveal more of their desires than heroes. This makes it much easier to relate to them and appreciate their personhood, which means that even if the heroes are better people, the villains are more accessible to the audience, or just have more going on in the story. Honestly, the argument of "this character is problematic" in reference to an inflexible moral code is just less compelling than "what could it take for this character to become a better person," or even, "how far will this character go down their dark path?"
Just a note about Gone Girl that you mention around 27:40 : Amy in Gone Girl actually does have trauma related to her parents! It's not that extreme but she does that express growing up she felt like she was never good enough for her parents because they wrote the "Amazing Amy" books for children based on their daughter, but "Amy" in the books was this perfect girl who accomplished so much and was successful at everything, and the real Amy started to resent her parents for expecting more out of her than what a child could reasonably be. This might explain why she created the "cool girl" persona, to appear as if she is a perfect woman in every way, and why she became an absolute psycho after getting fed up with maintaining the facade and fulfilling everyone else's expectations of her while stifling her true self! :)
Yes, Bojack is one of the best examples of redemption isn't always the point. Love the show, it's one of my all time favorites, glad you mentioned it here. The only Draco Malfoy that can be redeemed imo is Lauren Lopez' Draco (also the only way I'd ship Dramione lol). What about Faith (BtVS), do you think she had a good/satisfying redemption arc?
I think what bothers me about the redemption = death concept is it cheapens the narrative, in a way. Someone wants to turn over a new leaf, or feels remorse for their actions? Making him/her face the consequences of what he/she has done in the ensuing days/weeks/months/years would have a bigger impact, imo, especially considering that the main characters have had to suffer for the villain's actions.
Simple, the bad guys are almost always the most interesting, but people don't want to be seen is rooting for the villain.
So glad you mentioned Grace and Simon, I think they're a great example of 'redemption' arcs. The way Grace and Simon's paths diverge based on the choices they make was super interesting.
my favorite villains are the ones who unapologetically evil/shitty/etc. they choose to do bad things because they want to! I don't need to personally identify with every godamn character - tbh it kind of weirds me out how obsessed some people are with personally identifying with fictional characters.
sometimes I really do just wanna see captain america punch out a smug POS hydra-goosestepper. it doesn't always have to be more complicated than that.
How was Xena not in the best Redemption story lists? The entire show is about her redemption.
I love shadow weaver's redemption particularly because she isn't really redeemed.
There's something perfectly in character about her sacrificing herself and going out in a blaze of glory instead of actually doing the leg work to get better.
I remember when I was a naive 16 y/o in love with the controversial Disney Prince that is Kylo Ren and let me tell you: the emotional connection I had with him is indescribable. I was convinced that he'd return to the light. Hell, I wanted him to become a nomad and go on a journey of self-discovery.
I honestly liked Skylar, she was one of the only competent characters on the show.
And she fxxked Ted, good for her 👍
Because we see ourselves in them is my guess. I've never been here this early and for some reason I want to comment.
I dont really see 8 year old me watching star wars for the first time seeing myself on Vader tho...
I think people love redemption arcs (when they're done well) because we as people and as an audience can relate to it? like either we've done bad things or someone has done bad things to us, and it's cathartic to see a character change for the better and work to make amends.
I'm really interested in what I've been seeing much more recently is that the villain has to have a "reason" for his actions, even if the story doesn't try to redeem him.
I recently watched both the original and the reboot The Wrath of Khan back to back and what really stood out to me was how in the reboot it felt like they were trying to make him understandable or sympathetic, ie "well he really hates Starfleet because a general is holding his people captive so he can make weapons, so you can understand why he attacked, it's not his fault, he didn't start it". This completely feels at odds with the fact that Khan is then revealed to want to destroy mankind because he is "genetically superior". As an audience, we were asked to feel sympathetic for this character only to find out that he's a violent, eugenist when there was no reason to cram in the sympathetic backstory in the first place.
Meanwhile in the original, the motivation for Khan is simply, he wants revenge for being stranded on a planet after trying to take over the Enterprise in order to try and rule mankind because he is "genetically superior". Ironically, by not trying to make him sympathetic, his character feels much more consistent and thought through, and I found him much more engaging to watch. When his character flaws were what caused his downfall, it made sense for his character rather than the reboots Khan. Reboot Khan's mistakes which caused him to lose felt like bad writing rather than a natural consequence of his character.
Neither storyline tried to "redeem" Khan, but the contrast between how sympathetic Khan was made to be had a huge effect on the quality of the character and their storyline.
"He grew up off-screen and became a less hateful person... unlike JKR" throwing shade and spitting facts, great to see
I've heard somewhere that humans have difficulty accepting that things with huge impact can have mundane or even random causes. Hence why so many people believe JFK's assassin can't have acted alone or there must've been more behind 911 etcetc. We don't do well with senseless violence, tragedy etc. I think that same mechanism factors in when looking for these elaborate explanations for a character's cruelty
This is an excellent piece for distinguishing redemption and atonement and helping to separate fiction from reality. My thought is that redemption isn't "real" in the sense that it can really, objectively happen to people in real life. You're right in that it's religious, it works in fiction because there is author-as-god to separate the saved from the damned. Restorative justice is extremely messy (from the sense that how can we ever say a victim has been "made whole?"), but it's necessary in reality because our goodness or badness only exists in our relations with others. In fiction this can be wrapped into a package as neat or as messy as the creators want to make it.
Just reminds me of people complaining the Diamonds being "redeemed" at the end of SU as a bad thing or stupid cause they're Space Hitlers and sh*t like that. But... in the epilogue series Steven Universe Future, they're not just "okay, we've dismantled our evil Empire and it's over." No. They are actively righting they're wrong: Yellow Diamond is reconstructing shattered gems and bringing them back to life and even fixing the physical appearances of ex-corrupted gems; Blue Diamond doesn't make people sad with her powers anymore, but helps others feel better emotionally with her "happy clouds"; and White Diamond, instead of trying to control others, let others' mind control HER body in a strange psychoanalytic therapy session to bring out the subconscious to the surface... literally.
I agree
Omg im SO glad you're making a video about this!!!!
When the narrative around Midsommar said that people who rooted for the main character "missed the point about the toxicity and danger of cults". Yeah no, I got it, I just also (as a domestic violence survivor) enjoyed watching a woman in an emotionally abusive relationship get revenge and community support. How often do we see that stuff in media?
Kind of unfortunate when the only support is from an evil death cult.
Me too, it's concern trolling at best. I don't like the idea of cis-guys in particular reprimanding womxn about the horrors of sexual assault when it's always used as a throw away plot device in every form of media without second thought.
@@austincde So many man were upset at the sexual assault of the character Christian, but had no sympathy for Dani and the abuse she suffered. They are capable of seeing the abuse that this white man suffered, but not the abuse that Dani endured or unfair punishment that happened to Josh, the only black character in the film.
lol as a black woman I am not rooting for the white supremacist cult that tortures all the characters of colors, and r*pe people. There was no catharsis for me. The ending was pure horror. By the time we got to the r*pe scene, there was no way I could continue enjoy Christian's torture (even if I knew he was a godawful bf). Community for who? White women? (and this poor girl was gonna get killed) . I also don't really understand the argument that since this man was an abuser we should applaud her joining another group of abusers. Christian sucked but Pelle is much worse, he's straight up evil.
I saw you on Storied and am super stoked to binge your content. Love this video! Redemption arcs can be super compelling and it's great to see content discussing them in interesting ways
When it comes to redemption, I've come to understand both sides of the coin. On one hand redeeming a character is great at pushing the message that people who are willing to make the effort to change, can do so. I can totally imagine a person who feels bad about something in their past, watching a narrative where a person overcomes their demons be very hopeful for them.
On the other hand, we live in a society really seems to push the idea that you should ALWAYS forgive, don't give up on the people in your life, and focus on seeing the best in others, where that's maybe not always the right fit for everyone's situation. There are many people stuck in bad situations because they've internalized that when someone apologizes to just respond with "It's okay" regardless of how good was that apology or how much you think they're going to follow through on being better. We're often taught that the choice to not take someone back is wrong.
There are a lot more narratives that push the forgiveness message than there are that push the message that there are times when cutting people out is valid and I think that people who are down on "redemption arc narratives" are the ones who'd like it to be more balanced.
Kinda one of the big reasons I love She Ra. A show that does portray both, people can change when they're willing to put in the effort, and that walking away from toxic people is a valid option.
Where does our society push the idea that we should always forgive? We live in a society where we throw people in jail for the rest of their lives for one mistake, for Christ's sake. Like how do people not draw the connection between this discussion and incarceration?
_Very_ few people are "just bad" there even seems to be some psychological evidence that being born a psychopath, meaning with an inherent inability to feel fear or guilt, or truly empathize with others from birth, is hardly a guarantee that the person will engage in destructive behavior. They can be taught moral behaviors "intellectually" by responsible caregivers. The odds that a person will be extremely destructive, hateful and vindictive but _nothing_ happened to them to make them behave anti-socially have to be extremely low. You even make it sound like this is a relatively new concept, a traumatized person inflicting their trauma onto other people predates the turn of the new millennium.
I really like redemption and atonement in fiction. I like to believe that people can change and better themselves. So I really like this video a lot. It has me thinking about how a character doesn’t need to be a #unproblematic cinnamon roll by the end of the story. Sometimes characters can just be evil and liking them doesn’t reflect on your morality as a viewer. And a lot of the time redemption is better expressed through smaller gestures of growth rather than a big “actually I’m good now” before they die.
Oh man. I'm only seven seconds in but I just gotta say that I LOVE when creators include some kind of table of contents/topics covered. It helps me stay on track SO MUCH.
So glad to see Infinity Train get some love. Grace and Simon were afforded the exact same opportunities throughout the season, and as you said, Simon's very much active choices are what led to his downfall. We all know how betrayed we felt by Simon at the end of episode 5.
(Great video! Love your earrings btw ❤)
I love your videos so much and this was a fantastic one!!!! Redemption arcs are absolutely fascinating to me for so many reasons and I think this was an amazing deep dive into them. Also your t-shirt is so so so adorable!!!
Hot take- Sansa didn’t have a redemption arc she just had character growth from the time she was thirteen to becoming an adult in the end of the series. Just because she behaved like a normal child would in any situation like hers doesn’t mean she needs to be redeemed because of her initial “girly girl” personality
Is that really a hot take? I don’t know about the predominant belief or way that GOT fans thinks of Sansa’s or her character because I never really payed attention to the other fans. I just watched the show. Sansa did nothing terrible that deserved a redemption arc. She was just immature and ill-equipt to deal with the turmoil that occurred in her childhood. Only things like genocide, murder, rape, assault, emotion and other forms of abuse and things of that calibre warrant a redemption arc. Plus she was a victim in my eyes.
I'm only 2 mins in and i had to stop the vid to send it to my friends and tell them how good it is 💖💖 i am SO HYPED when u post!!! Great vid!
so many good points in this video!!! you dissect the topic of redemption arcs so well. the point about women, lgbt+, poc and other minority characters being allowed to reach basic writing milestones (from around 25:00) was such a good way of putting it, definitely something to keep in mind imo
in general a very good video on both the viewer/reader side of the "redemption" issue and also on the writing side of such characters as well!
(edit: a bit better wording)
my favorite redemption arcs when i was a kid: when the bad guy turns good :)
my favorite redemption arcs now that I'm a world-weary adult: minecraft texture packs that make the granite block look nice
this is why i do enjoy redemption in anime/manga.
i do think redemption is an action someone takes. so i do think anyone can be redeemed, but not everyone will be forgiven (since the people they hurt are not under any obligation to forgiven them), and they wont be able to atone for everything theyve done.
but yeah, good video!
I have adopted a policy of being incredibly transparent about why I want redemption arcs: Because villains usually die, but if I like a character I want them to stick around, and if they get redeemed they get to live and do more stuff. 90% of the time it's as simple as that. Also, post-redemption tropes of awkward former villain-hero interactions are funny.
This was excellent! You totally changed my mind about often wanting redemption arcs and being ok with rooting for someone you morally abject to!