Problems With 'The Excellent Wife' by Martha Peace
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace sells like hotcakes in biblical counseling/fundamentalist/homeschooling circles, and even though it seems like a 'fringe' book, it's affecting tens of thousand of women. Today Marissa Burt and Tia Levings and I sit down to talk about the problems with this book that tells women they must obey their husbands and submit- no matter what.
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Things Mentioned in the Podcast:
Download our Onesheet on The Excellent Wife: baremarriage.c...
Our podcast on how Emerson Eggerichs misuses Scripture in Love & Respect: baremarriage.c...
Marissa’s post on 10 reasons parents have a hard time giving up spanking: baremarriage.c...
4 Concerns with Biblical Counseling: baremarriage.c...
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ABOUT MARISSA BURT:
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Just last evening I was crying to a friend on the phone complaining that God sees my feelings as bad and that I’m sinning for wanting the abuse in my marriage to stop. That God knows it’s wrong but supports my husband. Wow. This is an answer to my cries.
I've been there❤ I pray you find freedom, peace, joy and a new hope! It's a hard journey, but it's worth every step!
It is Not God's Will for you to be abused. Please get out!
I’m so sorry that you are experiencing abuse. It’s not your fault. God will always love you. God sees and hears you. God will provide a way of escape. May God bless and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you. May the Lord show you His favor and give you His peace (Numbers 6:24-26). ❤️
I am so sorry you are going through this. Abuse is NEVER acceptable and NEVER should be endured. God does NOT support what your husband is doing. Is that the way of Jesus?
I'm so glad it could help you!
Wow Sheila! What your church did for you in your time of grief gave me goosebumps. What compassion and care! That's the church
It was lovely and so needed and appreciated.
I finally left my psychologically abusive marriage at 52. I had prayed to die for close to 10 years, because i could NEVER pray for his demise. Before and during that time i also prayed to stop caring about my hurt and lonliness, etc. Everything you 3 said resonated. I never read any of these books and wasn't at a church that taught this, but was raised SBC and " divorce is not an option" and " God hates divorce " played in my head iver and over. These messages take root deep.
I'm so happy for you and your newfound freedom!
Suffering happens in life: but life should not be suffering in itself as the raw default.
I've been waiting for this one specifically!!! My dad was an IFB guy and "gifted" this book to all the women in my family one Christmas. I ended up flipping through it and never finished because I was so turned off. Mind you...I was a TEEN and barely interested in dating at the time but knew "one day" my destiny was to be a "good wife and mother". Even though today I AM those things (to a very good, safe man) I still shudder to think where I could have ended up if I actually believed what my dad & oldest brother tried to indoctrinate me with. So glad I escaped that mindset and so grateful for my feminist-leaning mom who consistently fought against it 💪🏼
Tis podcast is so good!!! Thanks! Is there also a podcast or post on Debi Pearl's book 'created to be a help meet'?
I don't know why this video ended up in my suggested feed, but I'm glad it did! I watched with interest and curiosity, and a measure of sadness to know that there were so many women who'd been taught so many lies. Of course, I encountered a few of them myself, but I mostly had a different reaction, one of resistance! I grew up reformed Presbyterian, and through God's grace was taught the truth about God, his Word, and my relationship to Jesus. I've always had a bit of a "you can't tell me what to do" rebellious streak when it came to the important adults in my life, which I attributed in part to my understanding of my citizenship in Heaven. But mostly I was a good kid. Once I was married, I naturally desired to love my husband well, so I paid closer attention to those messages aimed at Christian Women, read a few books, and became very frustrated over the years as to why those resources weren't working. Of course, when only one person in the marriage is seeking help, using resources, learning, trying, it doesn't make the one who is trying feel any better. Anyway, as I'm watching your video, you mention Nancy Wilson, from Iowa, and I immediately hit pause and ran to my bookshelf. "The Fruit of Her Hands" was right where I'd stashed it! I was given the book by a lady at church 25 years ago, and I hated it. I felt so incredibly guilty when I read it, and I knew that couldn't be right. My spirit was disturbed! I read it thru, but I never talked about it with any of them. It was so critical and unloving and discouraging! That's what I remember the most about it. I opened the book tonight and my rebellious spirit had arising at the very first sentence! In remarking on 2Tim 3:1-6, she says "American women today are indeed gullible." I jotted a note in the margin, "SAYS WHO?!" and "Opinion!" with an arrow. I didn't know what gaslighting was then, but Nancy Wilson started doing it with her first sentence! It's a NO from me! If men worked half as hard at "loving their wives as Christ loved the church", maybe we wouldn't need all these gaslighting books aimed at women! Maybe you'll comment on one of Mrs Wilson's books in a future episode. Subscribe button clicked!
48:00 This is an idea that so many people don't seem to understand. You can have extreme, fringe groups that take ideas to a logical extreme that people say "No one actually believes that," but those same ideas seep into the mainstream, filtered and rebranded so that they seem normal. In the end, though, there's nothing to prevent those beliefs from being followed back to their logical extremes.
A criticism I've heard a couple of times about the _Shiny Happy People_ documentary is that it paints Paul and Morgan as Gothard followers. To me, though, that's very obviously *not* the claim they're making, and a quick look at Paul and Morgan's style of dress and tattoos will tell you that they are not Gothard followers. The point the documentary was trying to communicate was that the same ideas that the cult of IBLP taught (in the case of Paul and Morgan, wifely submission) have spread far beyond the IBLP, in part because of shows like _19 Kids and Counting._ They're still being spread by people who seem fairly mainstream, and they're spreading through mainstream channels like social media. (Just look at how the "umbrellas of authority" are still being circulated on Facebook, often by Evangelicals rather than hardline Fundamentalists.)
Exactly, Micah! This stuff becomes mainstream. It spreads in the mainstream. And I totally agree with your take on Paul & Morgan too
Bullseye 🎯
My Husband is a SBC pastor. We would never recommend this book. In any case of abuse we believe in calling the authorities and being safe. A wife should leave and divorce her husband if he is abusive. You shouldn't rejoice in abuse. There is nothing godly about being a physical or emotional punching bag. Any church leader who pushes a woman to stay with a violent man is wrong....and they will answer.
Thank you for promoting safety for women
@TheEllaTB You're welcome. I don't understand why anyone in ministry wouldn't promote it. We are called to help people.
@ashlieleavelle well you don't understand but it happens 🤷
And this is being the change we want to see! 👏👏👏👏👏 GOD BLESS Y'ALL!!
That is all great news!
But…being in the SBC and sending $ helps to support men fighting against victims, becoming safe churches, etc. (Amicus Brief, fighting the task force, etc.)
Our church voted to leave the SBC early this year and I sleep much better at night. :)
Sheila, thankfully what you’re saying about biblical counseling is FAR from always true! I went in very “warily,” as your guest recommended, but i have been SO blessed with a biblical counselor who has extensively researched abuse etc… it’s been an amazing empowering experience.
THIS.....
Just because it quotes a Bible verse doesn't make it Biblical '
In my former denomination, women hear demeaning messages about them and their daughters from the pulpit, at “conferences”, Bible study, Sunday school, district meetings, jurisdictional meetings, national meetings, everywhere. Scripture is used like an axe, intended to annihilate their spirits.
I am a Christian and am pretty conservative. I really dislike this book. I feel like so many Christian women marriage books gloss over many issues in marriage, and also, they act like the woman is responsible for the husband's behavior. They blame the women for their husband's behavior , without directly saying it. Just my thoughts.
Same here, except for my parents straight up told me I am responsible for my husband's abuse!
Exactly! We are somehow responsible for our husband’s behavior and the tone of our marriage and yet he is the “leader” and we have to obey him in every respect, but if anything goes wrong, it must be because we didn’t respect him enough.
@@TheEllaTB I am so sorry. You are not responsible. He has free will whether he is violent with you or not. I am shocked your parents said that.
Sheila, I enjoyed this show and appreciate your work. I would like to add, though, that not all biblical counseling is nouthetic counseling. I have studied biblical counseling with Tim Clinton and the American Association of Christian Counseling (AACC) and found their teaching to be much more balanced than nouthetic counseling's ideas. AACC incorporates biological, psychological, and sociological factors along with a Christ-centered approach to counseling. Also, just because a counselor is licensed doesn't mean they don't practice nouthetic counseling as well. For those who are seeking a Christian counselor, ask what they studied in their training and look it up.
Isn’t it interesting how people are constantly told that our emotions and intuition/heart is sinful, therefore we cannot trust ourselves. Then when difficult emotions come up, trying to tell us that something is wrong, we have to go to elders of the church for advice since we can’t trust ourselves.
RIGHT?! We are taught the heart is deceitfully wicked in churches today....but what about Christ?? And the Holy Spirit?! If we are saved and the HS lives in us, aren't we a new creature?? WHICH IS IT?! It *cannot be both!* 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
You guys left out the part where she says God will eventually discipline the husband with death. So that is our only hope according to her. Sadly a woman's husband who was addicted and physically abusive and she felt she should stay with him, he seemed to get a breakthrough, came to church, appeared to be born again....died in his sleep of a stroke. I felt oh, Martha was right!! That was awful. This book really was sad but I trusted the people teaching and recommending. It hurt so bad to be told my loneliness was a sin.
I’m a survivor of a 14 year long fundamentalist marriage. Thankfully the Lord led me out. ❤
I just threw this book out! Wish i had kept it to actually read now because I can't believe all this is in there! I didnt make it past the first couple chapters. It was given to me by my MIL when i got married. Such a sad way to live.
this is so profoundly sad... thank you for drudging through this for the review, I hope you are taking the spiritual reprieve to heal from this.
Amazing episode and what horrendous messages for women in this book.
@21:29 - I think it was over a year ago, I saw this woman on TH-cam say that if your husband tells you to do something that goes directly against Scripture, you're supposed to obey your husband and not God.... The first thought that came to my mind is, "yeah, that's called idolatry..."
@31:24 - This author pulls Scriptures out of context in attempt to make her point, yes. A lot of Christian authors do this, as you guys well know. This is why when reading _any_ book that claims to be from a Christian author - or any book, especially if it expresses opinions about life, love, spirituality, raising children, or any other relevant topic, that we have the Bible on hand to test what these authors say against Scripture. For example, say you're reading this book and this author claims a Scripture they mentioned supports their view. You put that book aside and look for the Scripture they mentioned, and read/study it in context to see if they used that Scripture correctly. If they did not use it correctly, they are wrong. Always read books with Scripture right there on hand to test what they say, and take the words of authors with a grain of salt.
@32:52 - First of all, I'm so sorry for your loss. Secondly, what a horrible way for the "church" to treat someone who has lost their children! Scripture says we're supposed to mourn with those who mourn. People deal with grief in different ways, and its not up to other people to police how others "should" or "should not" mourn, or try to regulate how long they should mourn. I'm so sorry you were treated that way.
@36:02 - I know this author gives terrible advice, and she's not the only one to do so. But so far, what I'm getting from this book is that she's just as oppressed as she believes women should be, but she doesn't see it. She's been so brainwashed by the misogynistic teachings of traditional Christian doctrine, that she continues to perpetuate those ideas. Those misogynistic teachings have so severely permeated and saturated the church - that even the victims of the oppression have become convinced that they're supposed to be oppressed. Sadly, they don't realize how the Scriptures have been twisted out of context and misused to perpetuate false ideas that the Scriptures do not actually teach.
@1:18:42 - The "Biblical counseling model" that isn't even Biblical 🙄 since they pull Scriptures out of context in attempt to support their views.
The part about women propping up unsafe churches/pastors should be a short clip to share because YES!!!!!!! (A little after 56:26)
Thank you so much for this amazing podcast, all of you!! 🎉🎉👏👏😢😭
"Martha has been married to her high school sweetheart, Sanford Peace, since September 24th of 1966. He is a retired air traffic controller with the FAA." I can't find any indication that he's written anything.
Tia could you please tell that oyster shell story? Is it told in Debi’s book?!?
Great episode!
Your comments on the s@x chapter and hanging up the phone because your husband wants it made me think of the Jennifer Flanders book, love your husband, love yourself. This is pretty much what she writes about.
About the introductory questio, the answer is:
Neither.
The message is that as a woman, you ARE like Jesus, wholeheartedly.
Sheila-- you regularly read emails from listeners. I have looked at your website and Facebook page and I can't find your email.
You can sign up to my emails and then just reply! baremarriage.com/join-the-newsletter/
@@SheilaWrayGregoire Aw, that makes sense. Thank you!
Books like this are one of the many reasons I HATE all those "young couples" classes.
Did anyone reach out to Martha Peace to discuss the concerns?
Many, many people have talked with her and these types of critiques have been public for years. When teaching is done in public, it must be corrected in public. The problem is the book, not just Martha Peace, and people need to be warned off of the book. That is the New Testament model. baremarriage.com/2021/04/misuse-of-matthew-18-false-teaching/
Above Rubies is the champion of taking a word and using the concordance to preach on it😑
Yikes, places that taught proper counselling downgrading ti to the 'biblical counselling' pretence...
What do you think of Frank Lake? Can't recall book name but was edge of mainstream chur he's in late 80s UK
Ah, 'clinical theology', does use real world training but also mixed with faith and the idea that birth trauma is a key issue, and memories of birth and even before.... I knew there was something weirdly distinctive about it.
Peace is her real last name. That is also her husband's last name.
35:00 restart
Whoa… The Bible is not the word of God? Please think on this one more, Sheila!
@@PM-qi1zd if I remember correctly she said Jesus is the word of God as is written in the book of John. What we have today the Bible, wasn’t around for until about 1300 years later. And it’s changed over the centuries. It used to have the book of Enoch and the apocrypha and I think other books. Too much too explain all.
The Bible contains the word of God, but it is not the word of God.
I pay attention to the red words (the words Jesus spoke himself) because most of what is written in the Bible was NOT spoken by God.
@@CelestinaSalas … but how do you know the red letters are spoken by Jesus?