I Instantly saved $120,000 with this 5 Axis Idea! | Haas TRT210
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- I instantly saved $120,000 after a call from a customer talking about his 5 Axis combo using a Rotovise and a Haas TRT210!
✅ Get your own RotoVise Pro today! 👉 piersonworkholding.com/4th-ax...
Five axis machining paired with our Rotovise has brought an incredible amount of productivity gains into our company. Now, I was about to buy another Haas UMC 500, until I got a phone call from a customer with a question that prompted me to save over $120,000 on bringing in more five axis equipment into our shop. In this video, I'm going to show you exactly how I did it so you can create your own Haas TRT210 Rotovise Pro Combo!
Link to the Haas TRT210: www.haascnc.com/machines/rota...
---------------------------------------------------------
*Videos We Recommend*
Fixture Friday Series:
THIS is the playlist to watch if you want to learn about designing fixtures.
• How We Got 24 Parts on...
The Move Series:
How we moved into our new shop!
• Getting Things Ready -...
00:00 This one phonecall saved me $120,000
00:44 Pairing the Haas TRT210 with a Rotovise Pro
02:33 Running through the Haas TRT210 and Rotovise Pro installation and setup
07:45 The customer call that sparked this idea
08:20 Are there any “gotchas” in this setup
10:48 Machining Footage
#HaasTRT210 #Haas #5Axis - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
✅ Get your own RotoVise Pro today! 👉 bit.ly/3RSkh9l
In Russia it's completely normal when you come working at some factory or workshop and they like "Oh, dude, it's easy! X is Y, Y is B, B is Z and it's reversed and this button doesn't work so when you need it just rewire up there to use neighbour button"
Nice work Jay!!! Thanks for the great content and inspiration.
This is a great video of how a 5 axis works, and fits your needs as a company. I use your smart vacuum vpu and pallet for all my mill work. Also I just finished a installing a new steel buidling for my work shop. In the process of getting everything in order with the LEAN process. I really enjoy watching all your videos. Keep up the great work sir. Looking forward too seeing more cool videos in the near future. Thanks Pierson, and God Bless 🙌 🙏 👍
Thank you for the kind words and congratulations on the continued growth of your company! Glad to hear Lean is a part of your success.
Very Cool Jay, thanks for sharing all the info. As usual very useful video.
This is a very clever way to fixture multiple parts! Adding an Air Turbine Tools specialty tool holder giving you 30-50k spindle RPM on this setup would be amazing! Thank you for sharing! Just subscribed!
I'm afraid I will never run a HAAS of any kind because I'm just a retired IT guy turned garage machinist. But I love watching your videos to see the products and solutions you come up with.
Haas just unveiled their UMC-350 at IMTS that uses this HRT-210. I still think this is a more rigid and versatile setup since you can take it off for a large part job.
Thats an awesome setup, I love it!
Yup, total game changer for sure!
You should be able to change the axis letters inside the Haas controller while setting up the rotary. It's customizable because you can rotate the rotary on the table. This one might be too large for that, but some of the smaller ones can be positioned at any angle.
You can't rotate the TRT on the table and keep the same travels. For this reason, shops would want to keep the distinction between this setup and a UMC so wrong code will not run on the wrong machine - A,B vs B,C.
@@PiersonWorkholding In theory you should be able to it physically instead of digitally. Flipping wires etc. But I don't know exactly how haas has everything wired.
Also have a trt210 on a VF3SSYT set up A,C runs flawlessly
We run a 2017 VF2 with a TR-160 trunnion. It's similarly set up physically as an A-C axis unit and the control is also sorted and set up that way. Not sure if your Haas techs set it up as A-B or if the TRT units are different, but I would have guessed you could set the axis names to anything you want.
We also use the same MRZP sequence that you described for the UMC on that VF2+ TR160 combo we have. In the NGC it's in the visual programming system options under calibration. Rough measure with the work probe and then attach a precision tooling ball to a magnetic indicator base on the platter and it works great. You do need to walk through the sequence a couple times to get a feel for what movements the machine does so you can set up the tooling ball in such a way to not get interference/accidental probe hits.
Yup, the tech set it up wrong but by dumb luck, we like it. UMC programs won't run on this setup as they shouldn't. It's one way to mistake proof things.
Yup, thats how ours are set up too. Its the correct way.
Adding additional axis to a machine that's suitable for that type of upgrade really boils down to if the axis is just a glorified fixture and DOESNT give the ability to machine dynamically on that particular axis. EG a moving axis that stops and locks to enable holes to be drilled or dynamic machining moving UNRELATED axis X, Y and Z and may be C depending on machine type. They are cheap to add and can be done a multiple of ways. I have even set up a removable fixture with finite placement but a fixed axis that just had a plc running the fixture and M code outputs from the CNC. Finite adjustment of the fixture was done easily into the separate plc with a touchscreen.
It gets real tricky when you need to interpolate dynamically as adjusting 5~9 axis with machine tool accuracy (Unlike a robot) usually needs a pretty powerful parallel processors. The first time I did something like this was with a Siemens 810. It managed to mostly do the job with some program adjustment but the display just went out to lunch until it had finished the pre process. Quite funny as I used to stir up new Siemens guys by running this and complaining that there was a video problem. About 1 in 5 would know what I was doing.
I would say that the Hass is just using a tandem processor for the 4~5th axis and then returning that data to the traditional 4 axis CNC. It works most of the time but not always and will stop during machining even loose the process completely. The process in the CNC can stop sometimes as well as I spent days once trying to sort a machine problem on an OKUMA that would freeze the Z and X axis for just a single rotation of the spindle of a lathe leaving a mark using mm per rev.. The bios wouldn't allow the additional on the fly advance calculation of the radius but once done it re allowed the movement and advance read. Dumb down the program to command position and the problem disappeared.
We have trt160 and trt210 and on each machine we use it on, they are always A and C!!!!
I feel like the key here is software simulation so you can ensure you don't crash your machine...it would be very easy to bump the spindle into the side of the vise if you aren't paying attention...
If you're worried about pinching cables, why not try using a retractable chord line mounted in the roof of the machine.
So whenever the cables goes to the back right corner, the chord will retract the cables as tension is loosened.
Think of it like those retractable keychain doohickies. I'm swedish and not really sure what they are called in english.
Nice video byt the way 👍
We use them for our 4th axis on vertical mills
I tried to do the mrzp with the trt210 but I’ve been having to modify the Master Z offset since it kept being .012 in off. It was so annoying.
I've had lots of fun making smaller parts from bar stock in a fourth axis and then tabbing them off. Very similar mindset to the live tooled lathe being a automation center.
Turn that thing 90 degrees on the table and I feel like you could fit four of them... wonder how that would work as far as all the drives required is concerned.
They sell an HRT210-2 which gangs up a pair of 4th axis rotaries while only needing one 4th axis drive. You could get a 5th axis drive and definitely stick a pair of those on a machine table. Configure each one as a master rotary, put a rotovise on each platter, and get a heck of a lot of unattended time.
I think you could do the 5 axis rotaries in a similar way but you would need to use their external controllers to interface with them.
Whats the second op of that part look like? Fixturing or regular vise deck to height?
Do your rotovise can be installed in a Y axis lathe with milling capability at a relatively limited rotation speed in lathe mode? We have a milling type part but with top surface as cylinder...
Is the fifth axis a direct torque motor? It certainly looks like it and if that is the case it's no wonder it cost so much more than a regular servo
With the that trunion setup can you run simultaneous 5 axis? Or just 3+2?
Very well done Jay. Looks like it will work out great for You. Hey I was wondering which video it was that showed You setting up the HRT210 with the manual hoist attached to the top of machine. I wanted to watch that one again. Again very well done and You got the nice product discount👍
Thank you for the kind words. Here's the video you're thinking of: th-cam.com/video/FmoLplRqe6s/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Jay. I watched that one too, but I was thinking You did one with more detail about the mounting of the winch and the cable fairlead. I want to do it for one of my mills
Jay,
What do you gain with this setup that a 4th axis rotary can't do? We have several TRT 5 axis rotaries as well as several different model 4th axis rotaries. Just curious if we're missing something lol.
Хорошо, очень хорошо!
yeah but this and that and maybe maybe not possibly i dont know. 5 axis is actually tm r and c by some company so of course you need to pay royalties to get to use that tm r and c technology
Have you considered making a version of the RotoVise that has the static jaw on the handle side (a reverse RotoVise, perhaps) so that you can access the faces at A0.000 without abnormally long tools?
Yes! It would be especially effective for 5 axis machines as well.
What coolant are you using in your machines, especially the Haas as we tried Blaser Synergy 735 and it ate the coating off the waycovers!
Qualichem 246C
All the tr160/210 and trt160/210 we have and have seen are all A-C axis and umc is B-C
Did you change the slot/clearance holes on the rotovise to accept the M10 SHCS we had to enlarge them on ours to fit the Trt210
Yes, we enlarged the holes and all RotoVises moving forward have more bolt clearance for the M10 screws. I mentioned it when we filmed but cut it because it was boring, lol.
I have this same exact model (TRT210). I just purchased it with a new VF3SS. My C axis is correct. I wonder if they fixed it in the controls for newer models.
Also, Haas has software for MRZP for this as well. Haas put out a good video on this called, "Don't fear 5-axis"
Make a video and teach us how you keep a machine shop looking in mint condition all the time ..How do you motivate the staff to scrub the floor and waxing the machines constantly? Even the interiors of machines look flawless 😅 Alot of places just dont care about cleaning the place or machines at all .. at least far from that level of detail..
The reality is oil spills, metal chips that crunch under the shoes and a general disarray..
How do you motivate staff to keep things Clean & Tidy in a Shop ??
Start with a Good business model.
Messy workshops employee Messy staff.
Tidy workshops employee Tidy staff.
When you see a prospective new employee walk through your door, you can already gauge the person by the way they dress.
Once you have employed the person of your choosing.
You model this employees attitude to fit in with how the business operates.
IF they are not fitting in with the business model, you need to sit down and discuss how you wish things to operate in your shop.
IF they are stubborn to change it might be time to give them their notice and let someone else employee them.
Most businesses employee staff with a Trial Period in place which is usually 3 months.
This is generally enough time to get a good gauge of a new long term employee. 👍
In this case I would prefer to have steady jaw on upper side so I could use shorter tools. I mean Rotovise
You can use the mzrp tool from your umc and press N
No probe.
You should make a video/post showing how you load the rotovise. I always see products like this and think they could be awesome but also think it must be clunky to jog the rotary every time to load parts.
Not a big deal, hit MDI, select your axis and rotate dial, repeat to rotate and load the whole assembly.
Add the rotary motion in the beginning of the program. Load what you can, close the doors, cycle start to a different rotary position with an M0 after, load, and repeat as necessary until cycle start begins the actual run.
@@zodiacengThat's what I was thinking. We do for our 4th axis programs.
I noticed a black tube pointing down near your spindle, can you tell me what that is?
It's an old invention we call "the part picker": th-cam.com/video/pKr0GY-5p1A/w-d-xo.html
beautiful. but i dont have haas..so sad..
Where is the HAAS mini mill in relation to these machines? Would this work in one?
I wouldn't put this size in a Mini Mill. Maybe an HRT100.
Will your rotovise fit on the TRT160? Charles
Good question, Charles. Yes! Both use a 5.51" bolt hole pattern and will work directly out of the box.
This is all good with one major problem. That is what happens when you break a tool or have some sort of crash with that unsupported 5th axis? I have one and have found that when there is a problem this rotary will get borked pretty easily. The UMC has a supported rotary and it can handle the occasional bump. Is it worth 120,000. I think so.
Down time sucks!
I don't think the UMC is as solid as you think. He did a review on his UMC a while back and if you read between the lines, it had rigidity issues he had to program around.
Fair points. If crashing were a regular occurrence, we'd probably take that into consideration.
You do make some good points about the comparison between a UMC and a Bolt On 5th Axis.
The word Bolt On might be something to focus on.
Adding something to something that was designed and manufactured for a certain application.
As in this example, Bolting On an additional axis/axis's to a machine that was designed to operate for an intended purpose.
VF4. 3 Axis Machining.
With concerns over Crashing a Machine ????
This is something that is difficult to design for ????
IF you have a tendency to Crash a Car.
Best Not to drive a Car ??
Same scenario might apply to Machining ??
IF you do have concerns with Crashing a Machine.
There are breaking points in Every design.
Some have been designed into the part, others will fail regardless.
Downtime on machines after a Crash will happen regardless of whether it is a Bolt On design or purpose built ( eg TRT 210 vs a UMC )
The Positive of a Crash with a TRT 160/210 is you can remove the damaged part of this Machine and continue with Some machining capability.
Crash a UMC ????
Will be a lot more expensive than repairing a Bolt ON TRT 160/210
Just some thoughts 👍
Did you buy another Haas mill as you already have others and are in the ecosystem so to speak? Do let us know in the next vid! Interesting you have Haas Mills and Doosan lathes
Yes, bought a Haas VM3 with this. Standardizing machines by 2 brands is a big advantage and helps operators master only 2 controls.
If someone told me it was $20k to add a 5th access to a Haas, I'd be okay with that. It may be a bit higher. Not sure. But it would be worth it. The claim is, if you have a 5th axis, the work sells itself.
Anyone know if these 5-axis trunnions can work on a non-Haas machine?
The community doesn't seem to have experience with this. Maybe your local Haas Factory Outlet can help answer.
Pretty simple to add them to non Haas machines, but most installs end up being run with a control box and M codes to fire signals to the box, then rotary and signal back to the machine when it’s finished. Getting to run simultaneous is not very common. HA5C (single axis) for example with a control box is one of the most popular rotaries/indexers you’ll see in shops and almost always on non Haas mills. Setup is no different on the tilting rotaries they just require two control boxes or one that can handle multiple rotaries, each having their own M Code. The rotation direction, speed and angle is set in the box rather than the program on the machine control.
@@zodiaceng interesting. We do have an HA5C on one of our older Okumas, which is controlled by an M code and an outboard box. It sounds like the trunnion would be very similar. Thanks for the explanation. 👍
I think this is great and I generally love what you're brining to the industry, but can we look at how were using the term productivity?
If we define manufacturing productivity as "the rate at which a company creates completed products to sell to its consumers.", without adding spindles, you're not getting 16x productivity. You're certainly gaining a ton of productivity in not having as many people moving parts between operations, but you're not getting 16x as many parts in the same amount of time.
Can we leave the clickbait to the BOOM folks?
Interesting point. Since we are practitioners of Lean Manufacturing, the lean wastes of Waiting, Wasted Motion and Over-processing are three huge wastes we eliminate by this type of setup. 1 cycle = 12 to 16 traditional cycles with 75% fewer tool changes is the main point.
Fair point on the Boom, lol, but hey you clicked the video soo....
@@PiersonWorkholding haha I certainly did click, I think you guys do great marketing and add real value in sharing your and customers experiences and ideas.
I do think that accuracy in language is important here. If someone new to manufacturing walked into a meeting saying that he could increase productivity 16x, I think his senior colleagues might have quite an eye roll in store.
To be clear, I agree with your methodology. I've run production machining and finding ways to extend cycle times to give people more opportunity to be productive was paramount. I think that these products and techniques do this, just perhaps not rendering an increase in productivity 16x. I see your dilemma though. Can you get as many clicks with "increase productivity 23%!!!!!" in an environment that want's revolutionary gains at every turn?
I was gonna rant about this and the "instant 120K savings" as well. And I don't believe such a smart man didn't think about putting the rotovise on a rotary table... Better keep these lean guys and the boom guys in check hahah
Surly its 20x productivity, 4 side then the top??
You can’t hit the face closest to plater with the spindle normal to it, so doesn’t “really” count.
It feels that you could have saved more on a 4th axis making these boxes, 5th does not seem to be needed.
Not to get in the weeds, but yes this specific component on filming day didn't need a 5th axis, but the capability is there for our other parts that do.