I'm getting a kick out of reading the "Brass/ Bronze" comments 😅. Don' worry... Keith's got this. He is "ad-libbing" and discussing his actions and methods. As human beings we trip over our words and make corrections to our mis-speaks. As a machinist, he's handling it.
1:30 Grandpa used to say: "prepare for plan A, plan for plan B, and execute on C." :)) This kind of thing can always happen in the shop for all manner of reasons, but hey, i personally feel that's half the fun of owning such a space.
Keith, I love your channel. I used to run an old ww2 KT like yours in the old Firestone plant in LA, circa 1975. If you want to reduce runout in your arbor, move your work in as close to the machine as you can and move your support in as well to reduce the effective length of the arbor to a minimum. In your case should cut the runout in half.
hahaha, I happened to look away and when I looked back Keith had those stagger tooth cutters together. The first thing that came to my mind was "Why in the world is Keith machining metal with a tractor tire?!" pfft 😋 I need to pay more attention
Most likely reason is that Kieth doesn't have any shorter ones suitable for the job. Also, depending on the cutter contact and the materials being used, the rigidity gained by using a shorter arbour may not mean much. Consider that the machine he is using is designed for gang-milling castings, which would require the use of long arbors. The manufacturer would have specified a larger-diameter arbor if it improved the rigidity of the horizontal milling setup, which would result in better finishes and improved accuracy... He probably just doesn't have a shorter one. 😁
The support bushing could have been closer to the cutters and the smaller diameter clamping bushings and nut hanging out towards the arbor end Same tooling, different configuration 😮 JIM 😂😅
Having multiple matching cutters is nice to have. 21:36 - I noticed the overarm support was moving on that front bearing. Maybe it wasn't tight on the over arms?
Good thing you installed the parking attachment. If it just made things easier than getting out the engine hoist to deal with the head, it was a good deal, if the parking attachment saved you time it was a great deal. Great video as always.
I love your videos, always waiting on the next video, you are a very talented machine Operator, I love your knowledge of older machinery and the time you spend in bringing them back to life. You have inspired me in acquiring older and Vintage Machinery, I have purchased several pieces of Woodworking machinery that were not working and have spent hours and weeks bringing them back to life. Keep up the Outstanding work Mr. Rucker !!!
You REALLY need to install some bushings between the overarm support locking nuts and top casting. Using the parking attachment to press against isn't allowing those nuts to tighten, causing the support to move, as can be seen around the 21:00 mark. It does look like you noticed, since the support is back to where it was in the beginning and you have a ratchet on the rear nut, at the end of the video.
Beautiful job Keith and a nice Video. I agree with your decision to gang mill the channel, was a great way to go. Maintains the tolerance and consistency. That Kearney Trecker is sure a nice mill and a very versatile machine. Nice seeing these old machines in action. Have a great day. 👍
Making the bearings match the pins should only require adjusting the boring head during the boring operation. Replacing the pins would probably require removing the wheels from the locomotive, pressing/cutting the pins out, machining new pins, pressing the new pins into the wheels, and reinstalling the wheels. That's a lot more work/time/tools/equipment/men, for almost no benefit (unless the pins are worn to the point of breaking).
Thanks for answering that question. I had asked it (before I read your reply to Mark's question). That makes sense. I ask it from an engineer's perspective (electrical engineer, not mechanical, but I have had a little experience in machine maintenance). To an engineer it always seems like an easy answer (I freely admit that to being one of our weaknesses). Metrology and materials science were two of my minors on my degree and I keep going back to tolerances.
I wonder if Keith has a dedicated vacuum for cleaning up brass or bronze chips so he can get some beer money every couple years. Seems like you could find a used one at a flea market or a garage sale, it might be harder to find a spot to store it in. Lol
I have always noticed that cutters have that "noise" pattern to them. Sometimes its a harmonic. I've seen where using a grinder (not a benchtop) to accurately sharpen the cutting edge will eliminate the oscillating noise. I don't believe that the manufacturer wants to spend a whole lot of time making "spring passes" on an already sharp edge just to reduce the noise. (Make a pass and evaluate. Redress the wheel and make adjustments to height, angle or depth. Make another pass, repeat. Etc etc etc.) But sometimes that would be solely for the weekend TH-camr hobbyist.
With the pins being so far out of tolerance that you have to custom fit each one; When do you decide that it is time to make new pins? I know that it is a vicious circle, you fix the next part and then whatever that is attached to is out of spec; and so on, and so on. Would out of round pins also wear the main rod bearings. I am not a machinist but could the pins be turned down and sleeved with an interference fit?
Caveat; every thing I know about machining and casting I’ve learned from watching Keith Rucker. That being said, with the total amount of machining being done on these parts, wouldn’t it have been more accurate and efficient to have just started with a solid block of bronze rather than a casting?
Depends what you mean by "efficient". Bronze is not at all a cheap material, and if you can save maybe 20% of the mass by starting with a casting that could be a huge saving.
Dedicated watcher here for years now, and it looks like you have had more headaches with these parts then anything I have ever seen you do. - If you can come up with a cutter for the taper side looks like you got them on the run, though. BTW, I think I told you already, and not with depth mics but we have a 1.456" x .125" deep counter bore we do all the time that I use a B&S ID mic on. I screwed up so many times reading the mic wrong scrapping the part I am so gun shy that I verify the mic with verniers ever time I read it!. That mic has made me look like a first day apprentice more times then I care to remember. I'm betting you and I are not the only ones that mess up with depth and ID mics. Well the backwards reading mics, setups that didn't work and cutters that are too small are behind you.....I;m sure you will finely get er done now! (One of those days,,,,,,) Yo, 2-more operations and the Gremlin parts are back on the engine and out of the shop! Bet you will be glad to see them go!!!!!
Keith this video is great but why does the audio constantly change drastically, I try to adjust it but when it jumps from very low to extremely loud and I am listening on earbuds it is blasting in my ears, Thanks
Hot dam Keith, your looking so skinny now 😮 I havnt been able to keep up to date on your videos as much as I'd like to, you may have mentioned the weight loss and I hope its because your doing it on purpose and there isn't some other factor causing the weight loss. As always love your videos.
Keith, a friendly reminder. I guess you know that the depth can also be checked with the other end of the caliper. The end is precision machined or ground so the it can be used with the back side of the caliper using the movable jaw as the other stop to measure depth. It is way more accurate than balancing the small end on a surface having a greater possibly a getting parallax reading. The other end has more surface area. You have the room with this bearing for making use of the large end of the caliper. If you are like me, I am a creature of habit and find myself forgetting about using the large end. Many things I check don't have the room to do so therefore it reinforces me not to use it. Kudos on your loss of weight. You sound healthier. Before, you were gasping when talking so you must be feeling a lot better. You do look better. Congratulations.
I'm mildly surprised you didnt just use an angle plate instead of go to all that time wasting changing from vertical to horizontal. Even with the horizontal set up an angle plate would have some advantages on a workpiece with that aspect ratio. BUT if the job gets done that is all that matters, not how you do it.
The arbor should always be as short as possible for maximum rigidity. You should tighten it up so the end bearing stops wandering all over the place too.
Brass is composed of copper and zinc, whereas bronze is made up of copper and tin, sometimes with other elements such as phosphorus or aluminium added in. Bronze has been made from copper and tin for about 4000 years now. Tin bronzes are usually produced in strip and wire form with a mix of high yield strength and corrosion resistance. Phosphor bronze has increased hardness, fatigue resistance and wear resistance which makes it great for springs, bellows, flexible tubing, fasteners, masonry fixings, shafts, valve spindles, gears and bearings. Brass is the name for a range of copper-zinc alloys with differing combinations of properties. The variety of available forms is very large, which can allow for minimum machining. Brass is very versatile and a first choice for heat exchangers (radiators). Unlike mild steel, it does not become brittle at low temperatures. Nickel-silver is created by adding 10-20 % nickel to brass. What makes it different from brass is its higher tarnish resistance and resistance to stress corrosion cracking. It also has an attractive silvery look and is used frequently in things like telecommunication components, food manufacturing equipment, jewelry, model making, tool brush anchor wire and pins, musical instruments, test probes and contact springs. Copper-nickel alloys are ideal for marine uses such as seawater pipework or desalination units because they are highly resistant to seawater flow and hardly susceptible to the attachment of marine organisms. Nickel improves the corrosion resistance and strength of copper without a loss on ductility. Gunmetals are mixes of copper, tin, zinc and lead known for their corrosion resistance, good strength and ease of casting. They are used to make intricate castings required to be pressure tight like pumps, valves and pipe fittings. Where loads and speeds are moderate, bearings are also often made of gunmetals. These alloys are also used in modern statues. Beryllium-copper in the fully heat treated and cold worked condition is the hardest and strongest of all copper alloys. Its mechanical properties are similar to many high strength alloy steels, but it has better corrosion resistance as well as electrical and thermal conductivity than any of them. Beryllium-copper alloys are used for example in springs, electrical contacts, valves, pumps, different kinds of non-magnetic, non-sparking tools and injection molds.
Hey there folks, even if he was calling it "one of those two copper alloys" he'd be more rightly than not. So many specifications of brass, color of and hardness of, not to mention those using a bronze of some sort. Kind of like, you want it soon, but faster, factual information about these too is daunting.
Could also be about time. Yeah. There isn't a big push to get these done but sometimes you just want to get the job done and move on instead of waiting for tooling.
I don't buy an expensive piece of tooling for a one-time use unless there's no other way. Plus in this case I wouldn't want the reduced rigidity of an extra long end mill for that very deep slot, if that's what you're referring to. To me the horizontal setup is the way to go anyway.
Hmm, my concern with using multiple cutters like this would be if you can trust that they're really all the same size. If some of them have been reground before, you'd create a slightly stepped surface.
Never used a depth micrometer, never showed indicating the milled side in so that the next milled side would be perpendicular. I'm not shocked. I urge anyone who wants to know how to properly machine quality parts avoid this channel.
@@ManumbaGandjimoCan show nothing themselves? The fact that I brought it up tells you I know about it and pretty much any quality machinist knows about it. He’s a very lazy person for what he does. I’m most certainly not jealous of that or anything he does. 😂
I'm getting a kick out of reading the "Brass/ Bronze" comments 😅. Don' worry... Keith's got this. He is "ad-libbing" and discussing his actions and methods. As human beings we trip over our words and make corrections to our mis-speaks. As a machinist, he's handling it.
Keith, your dedication to keeping to your posting schedule is inspiring.
You give many hours of enjoyment! As I am house bound,and truly miss the machine shop.
1:30 Grandpa used to say: "prepare for plan A, plan for plan B, and execute on C." :)) This kind of thing can always happen in the shop for all manner of reasons, but hey, i personally feel that's half the fun of owning such a space.
Good morning Keith. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving. Thanks for the videos.
Keith, I love your channel. I used to run an old ww2 KT like yours in the old Firestone plant in LA, circa 1975. If you want to reduce runout in your arbor, move your work in as close to the machine as you can and move your support in as well to reduce the effective length of the arbor to a minimum. In your case should cut the runout in half.
Nicely done Keith.
Thanks for sharing
Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family. Gods blessed you greatly . Thank you tor all you do.
Thanks for sharing 👍
hahaha, I happened to look away and when I looked back Keith had those stagger tooth cutters together. The first thing that came to my mind was "Why in the world is Keith machining metal with a tractor tire?!" pfft 😋 I need to pay more attention
4:10 Why is the support extended so far?
Most likely reason is that Kieth doesn't have any shorter ones suitable for the job. Also, depending on the cutter contact and the materials being used, the rigidity gained by using a shorter arbour may not mean much. Consider that the machine he is using is designed for gang-milling castings, which would require the use of long arbors. The manufacturer would have specified a larger-diameter arbor if it improved the rigidity of the horizontal milling setup, which would result in better finishes and improved accuracy... He probably just doesn't have a shorter one. 😁
The support bushing could have been closer to the cutters and the smaller diameter clamping bushings and nut hanging out towards the arbor end
Same tooling, different configuration 😮
JIM 😂😅
Thank you for sharing.👍
Thank Keith, I'll be happy to view the next angle cut. :)
Having multiple matching cutters is nice to have. 21:36 - I noticed the overarm support was moving on that front bearing. Maybe it wasn't tight on the over arms?
Good thing you installed the parking attachment. If it just made things easier than getting out the engine hoist to deal with the head, it was a good deal, if the parking attachment saved you time it was a great deal. Great video as always.
I love your videos, always waiting on the next video, you are a very talented machine Operator, I love your knowledge of older machinery and the time you spend in bringing them back to life. You have inspired me in acquiring older and Vintage Machinery, I have purchased several pieces of Woodworking machinery that were not working and have spent hours and weeks bringing them back to life. Keep up the Outstanding work Mr. Rucker !!!
It sure is nice when you have setup options!
we makes parts similar to that at work and we would lay that part on the table and use an endmill ffrom the side to mill those.
Nice work. For a part that has such a simple appearance it certainly has its' challenges.
You REALLY need to install some bushings between the overarm support locking nuts and top casting. Using the parking attachment to press against isn't allowing those nuts to tighten, causing the support to move, as can be seen around the 21:00 mark. It does look like you noticed, since the support is back to where it was in the beginning and you have a ratchet on the rear nut, at the end of the video.
Why not use the big planer?
Longer setup. Slower. More tool pressure with single point tool. More likely to ruin the part.
Keith thank you I really injoy watching your videos. I'm not a Machines but I Find it really interesting.
Runout on that arbor could be from the sleeves clamping the tool not having parallel or perfectly parallel faces
Woo Hoo, K&T action !
Nice work Keith 👍👍
ATB.......
Beautiful job Keith and a nice Video.
I agree with your decision to gang mill the channel, was a great way to go.
Maintains the tolerance and consistency.
That Kearney Trecker is sure a nice mill and a very versatile machine.
Nice seeing these old machines in action.
Have a great day. 👍
nice
That was a fun video!
Hi, please explain why you have chosen not to replace/refurbish the pins rather than custom making each bearing?
Making the bearings match the pins should only require adjusting the boring head during the boring operation. Replacing the pins would probably require removing the wheels from the locomotive, pressing/cutting the pins out, machining new pins, pressing the new pins into the wheels, and reinstalling the wheels. That's a lot more work/time/tools/equipment/men, for almost no benefit (unless the pins are worn to the point of breaking).
Thanks for answering that question. I had asked it (before I read your reply to Mark's question). That makes sense.
I ask it from an engineer's perspective (electrical engineer, not mechanical, but I have had a little experience in machine maintenance). To an engineer it always seems like an easy answer (I freely admit that to being one of our weaknesses). Metrology and materials science were two of my minors on my degree and I keep going back to tolerances.
I'm surprised Keith didn't see the Arbour support wandering off it's bushing @15:11. Was nearly fully off at the end of the OP
Keith looks like a job for the shaper
Good job
Audio levels variable. Ron W4BIN
Most excellent.
👍👍👍👍 Friday 😮
I wonder if Keith has a dedicated vacuum for cleaning up brass or bronze chips so he can get some beer money every couple years. Seems like you could find a used one at a flea market or a garage sale, it might be harder to find a spot to store it in. Lol
Good Job Cool.
Horizontal gang milling is the K&T living its best life.
I have always noticed that cutters have that "noise" pattern to them. Sometimes its a harmonic. I've seen where using a grinder (not a benchtop) to accurately sharpen the cutting edge will eliminate the oscillating noise. I don't believe that the manufacturer wants to spend a whole lot of time making "spring passes" on an already sharp edge just to reduce the noise.
(Make a pass and evaluate. Redress the wheel and make adjustments to height, angle or depth. Make another pass, repeat. Etc etc etc.) But sometimes that would be solely for the weekend TH-camr hobbyist.
With the pins being so far out of tolerance that you have to custom fit each one; When do you decide that it is time to make new pins?
I know that it is a vicious circle, you fix the next part and then whatever that is attached to is out of spec; and so on, and so on. Would out of round pins also wear the main rod bearings.
I am not a machinist but could the pins be turned down and sleeved with an interference fit?
Where is your shaper at?.
He doesn’t have a shaper.
There's the big planer @@grntitan1
@@bhnjhbjhbkgkkvhnhmbmSure, but a planer is not a shaper.
As the old saying goes. There is more than one way to skin a cat! lol
Planer! You should have put it on the planer!!
cool
Caveat; every thing I know about machining and casting I’ve learned from watching Keith Rucker. That being said, with the total amount of machining being done on these parts, wouldn’t it have been more accurate and efficient to have just started with a solid block of bronze rather than a casting?
Depends what you mean by "efficient". Bronze is not at all a cheap material, and if you can save maybe 20% of the mass by starting with a casting that could be a huge saving.
When will you start on the Stoker Engine?
Dedicated watcher here for years now, and it looks like you have had more headaches with these parts then anything I have ever seen you do. - If you can come up with a cutter for the taper side looks like you got them on the run, though.
BTW, I think I told you already, and not with depth mics but we have a 1.456" x .125" deep counter bore we do all the time that I use a B&S ID mic on. I screwed up so many times reading the mic wrong scrapping the part I am so gun shy that I verify the mic with verniers ever time I read it!. That mic has made me look like a first day apprentice more times then I care to remember. I'm betting you and I are not the only ones that mess up with depth and ID mics.
Well the backwards reading mics, setups that didn't work and cutters that are too small are behind you.....I;m sure you will finely get er done now! (One of those days,,,,,,)
Yo, 2-more operations and the Gremlin parts are back on the engine and out of the shop! Bet you will be glad to see them go!!!!!
Why not use the nicely restored metal planar?
Keith this video is great but why does the audio constantly change drastically, I try to adjust it but when it jumps from very low to extremely loud and I am listening on earbuds it is blasting in my ears, Thanks
In the beginning, why is was your arbor support so far away from your cutter?
The setup is always the most important the cutting goes like nothing with the proper setup. 🙂
Keith, do you collect and save the bronze to send back to Clark for future use? Thoroughly enjoy the content of your channel.
If that vulcan came out Wilkes-Barre, its a good chance my great grandfather had his hands on that part ,he was a machinist recruited out of Germany
That's basically why I had to put a 6" riser block on my Bridgeport clone.
Sir, I’m sorry, I am 2:55 into this video, and did you not spend years restoring a planner that could do this?
Hot dam Keith, your looking so skinny now 😮
I havnt been able to keep up to date on your videos as much as I'd like to, you may have mentioned the weight loss and I hope its because your doing it on purpose and there isn't some other factor causing the weight loss.
As always love your videos.
Why not make new pins to fit the new bore?
Couldn't the castings be made with less excess material?
Keith, a friendly reminder. I guess you know that the depth can also be checked with the other end of the caliper. The end is precision machined or ground so the it can be used with the back side of the caliper using the movable jaw as the other stop to measure depth. It is way more accurate than balancing the small end on a surface having a greater possibly a getting parallax reading. The other end has more surface area. You have the room with this bearing for making use of the large end of the caliper. If you are like me, I am a creature of habit and find myself forgetting about using the large end. Many things I check don't have the room to do so therefore it reinforces me not to use it.
Kudos on your loss of weight. You sound healthier. Before, you were gasping when talking so you must be feeling a lot better. You do look better. Congratulations.
Much improvement on the audio issue. Many thanks Keith!
You might want to reach out to hyce he is currently in the design process of resurrecting a long since scraped loco for the drg&w the Montezuma aka #1
I'm mildly surprised you didnt just use an angle plate instead of go to all that time wasting changing from vertical to horizontal. Even with the horizontal set up an angle plate would have some advantages on a workpiece with that aspect ratio. BUT if the job gets done that is all that matters, not how you do it.
The arbor should always be as short as possible for maximum rigidity. You should tighten it up so the end bearing stops wandering all over the place too.
Brass and Bronze are not synonyms, they are different alloys!
Your fact-fu is mighty!
Brass is composed of copper and zinc, whereas bronze is made up of copper and tin, sometimes with other elements such as phosphorus or aluminium added in.
Bronze has been made from copper and tin for about 4000 years now. Tin bronzes are usually produced in strip and wire form with a mix of high yield strength and corrosion resistance. Phosphor bronze has increased hardness, fatigue resistance and wear resistance which makes it great for springs, bellows, flexible tubing, fasteners, masonry fixings, shafts, valve spindles, gears and bearings.
Brass is the name for a range of copper-zinc alloys with differing combinations of properties. The variety of available forms is very large, which can allow for minimum machining. Brass is very versatile and a first choice for heat exchangers (radiators). Unlike mild steel, it does not become brittle at low temperatures.
Nickel-silver is created by adding 10-20 % nickel to brass. What makes it different from brass is its higher tarnish resistance and resistance to stress corrosion cracking. It also has an attractive silvery look and is used frequently in things like telecommunication components, food manufacturing equipment, jewelry, model making, tool brush anchor wire and pins, musical instruments, test probes and contact springs.
Copper-nickel alloys are ideal for marine uses such as seawater pipework or desalination units because they are highly resistant to seawater flow and hardly susceptible to the attachment of marine organisms. Nickel improves the corrosion resistance and strength of copper without a loss on ductility.
Gunmetals are mixes of copper, tin, zinc and lead known for their corrosion resistance, good strength and ease of casting. They are used to make intricate castings required to be pressure tight like pumps, valves and pipe fittings. Where loads and speeds are moderate, bearings are also often made of gunmetals. These alloys are also used in modern statues.
Beryllium-copper in the fully heat treated and cold worked condition is the hardest and strongest of all copper alloys. Its mechanical properties are similar to many high strength alloy steels, but it has better corrosion resistance as well as electrical and thermal conductivity than any of them. Beryllium-copper alloys are used for example in springs, electrical contacts, valves, pumps, different kinds of non-magnetic, non-sparking tools and injection molds.
@@pauldorman Keith often refers to Brass or Bronze as if it were the same thing!
Hey there folks, even if he was calling it "one of those two copper alloys" he'd be more rightly than not. So many specifications of brass, color of and hardness of, not to mention those using a bronze of some sort. Kind of like, you want it soon, but faster, factual information about these too is daunting.
@@CothranMike They are used in different applications and have different colours.
At my house every job is an opportunity to acquire a new tool.
horizontal side milling cutter is much more appropriate for that end mill no
👍👍👌👌
👍👍👍😎😎😎
I don’t understand the reluctance to buy correct tooling
So much is donated a purchase now and again seems justified!
JIM 😊
Nothing wrong with being frugal, just regroup and use what you got!
Think about it, only 4 pcs. For a “Steam locomotive “ . Reuse, save $. Perfect.
Could also be about time. Yeah. There isn't a big push to get these done but sometimes you just want to get the job done and move on instead of waiting for tooling.
I don't buy an expensive piece of tooling for a one-time use unless there's no other way. Plus in this case I wouldn't want the reduced rigidity of an extra long end mill for that very deep slot, if that's what you're referring to. To me the horizontal setup is the way to go anyway.
hello it's a lot of complication for a very basic machining
That’s what you have to do to be certain the part is accurate with a good finish and to specs. Anything less may result in a scrapped part.
I have been a machining mechanic for over 40 years and I find that the procedure is not the right one
Volume jumps from barely intelligible to deafening. Is this seriously THAT hard...?
Not a horizontal boring mill
Hmm, my concern with using multiple cutters like this would be if you can trust that they're really all the same size. If some of them have been reground before, you'd create a slightly stepped surface.
I'm always a little concerned about those misters, I always wonder if they can be infected by legionella.
Never used a depth micrometer, never showed indicating the milled side in so that the next milled side would be perpendicular. I'm not shocked. I urge anyone who wants to know how to properly machine quality parts avoid this channel.
Never used ? Or just not shown on video? 'Experts' always willing to slap down others, yet can show nothing themselves. Jealousy I do think.
@@ManumbaGandjimoCan show nothing themselves? The fact that I brought it up tells you I know about it and pretty much any quality machinist knows about it.
He’s a very lazy person for what he does. I’m most certainly not jealous of that or anything he does. 😂
@@justinl.3587 " I know about it and pretty much any quality" .. so wheres the proof of the pudding ? Videos of your expertise please :D