I can't tell you enough how helpful this is Tim. Thanks so much! Really well-written and engaging short story that is helping me improve my scene writing.
Thank you, excellent presentation. I enjoyed your story and thought it was a perfect example of 'show not tell'. Not sure I felt the acceptance by his parents enabled him to confess his feelings for Meg - but loved his mother stepping in and saving him from saying to much! Loved your story.
It was so helpful! I know it was arduous work on your part to break your story down, but I learned so much. Specifically, how it was determined that Ethan's mother was the protagonist in scene 2 and why. I was struggling with this in my own analysis of my work.
Fantastic! This is very helpful. Thanks Tim. This story dives deep into the character's ultimate desire, fears and how he changes from start to finish in each scene. Very well done.
This is now my favorite Christmas short story. I told my friends before I listened to this video. Now I see how much it took to write it. One thing I learned: be specific, then amp it up. Thanks. Chris
Hey Tim, thanks for this, it’s a great exercise! Here’s my confusion, though: most of the story is about this tension between his feelings for Meg and his social standing, which manifests as his inability to respond to her. It’s true that his obligation to his parents is an obstacle he faces, but I don’t think it is THE obstacle. The obstacle is self-confidence, which is overcome by having the idea for the perfect gift. But the most energetic moment is when he’s facing Meg in that back lot and he holds the CD out to her in front of all these bullies. It seems like that is the climax and the crisis choice is like all the others: engage with Meg or hide from Meg.
I love the story, and I loved the exercise. I was interested in your Scene 2 explanation: for me it was Ethan's discovery of a super-personalized invitation, leading to the OOD of wanting permission to go without having to reveal why (it's a girl--it's private). The TP comes when his parents misunderstand the gravity of the situation; his crisis is tell them it's a girl he likes or not tell them, climax of course he doesn't tell them. And I read Scene 6 slightly differently as well--so many wonderful layers in your writing--I thought the TP was his mom showing up, because she gives Ethan an out. She raises an eyebrow at him. She's asking Are you okay or do you want me to go Mama Bear on this girl (the mom has just seen his heart break. Any threat of a repeat and she's gonna step in). Crisis is does he stay safe with mom or risk his heart again with Meg, and Climax, thank god, he chooses Meg. The last thing I want to say is how absolutely marvelous the moment with the father is for all the reasons you stated, and what I also took away was how perfectly double-meaning-ed it is (sorry, in my enthusiasm I'm making up words now). Getting hugs from parents can easily be viewed as a step backward for a young man, but by leaning into it Ethan actually takes a step forward in his maturity. He can act like a kid and lash out, or he can accept the embrace and grow up. And then the dad role models what you do after life knocks you down: you get back up and go to work! Thank you so much for sharing this. I'll remember this story for a long time.
Great story. Love the analysis. I like the fact that you went back to add certain elements to enhance your story. From the fact you were unsure of the protagonist in scene 2 (the mom), I'm assuming you had an idea of your story, but didn't outline first; question: do you think you would have written the same story if you had planned out the 5 commandments of each scene prior to writing your story?
I have often thought of making teaching videos for newer writers. But since I'm unpublished, It doesn't feel appropriate, still I'm writing roughly 3-4 novels a year.
Great story! Very well written. I didn’t have issues with identifying any of the global aspects of the story, but some of the scene by scene analysis threw me off the trail a bit. Scene 2 was troublesome. When I analyze scenes, I always assume the viewpoint character is the protagonist. I had Scene 2 broken down in a completely different way. I really enjoyed Tim’s breakdown of the story though. A lot of concepts that I struggled with in the past seemed to “click” into place for me after reading the story and watching Tim’s analysis. Can’t wait to apply some of these concepts in my own writing. Thanks again Tim for letting us look over your shoulder at your writing process.
Hi Tim. I have a none writing question. I was watching one of your videos cant remember which one. And you mentioned you train bjj. I was wondering what belt are you and where do you train to? I'm currently a blue belt in bjj and a yellow belt in judo. So, hence my curiosity.
Is this on Notion? I'm just wondering as I've just started using it, and wondering how to best use it for organizing my stories & wiring if so (the comments on the right side of the page looks like google docs though) thanks!
I liked the story Tim, thanks for the analysis, but has anyone else pointed out the head hopping in POV a few times (his Dad, and Meg) ? That always drops me out of the story.
My honest feedback on the story, and this might just be me, but it felt indulgent. Far too much description. Far too long before action. When the clutter gets removed, the meaning can shine. It's over 5k words, and I think you could tell this story in half of that. And IMO it would be more meaningful for it. Recommended reading to help with this approach: George Saunders' 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain' and Steven Pressfield's 'Nobody Wants to Read your Sh*t.' Peace and happy writing to you!
It's a first draft as he has said. Also having read Saunders and Pressfield, its just the same information packaged differently. Pressfield's editor was (and maybe still is) Shawn, who is the founder of Story Grid and can see the similarities in what Pressfield says and what is offered by Shawn and Tim, although you might have to spend some time actually studying it and looking for the connection.
@@dreamslayer2424 Interesting. I was responding only to the short story Tim posted that I read. I don't think it's productive to project what might be similar based on who is involved behind the scenes, rather it's best to the judge the work itself. And yes first drafts are one thing, but again, I was just sharing my response to what I read. Personally I don't find it very useful to break down a story too deeply until further revision has been made on the piece, because there is too much clutter making it hard to know what is important or not within the story. I find the beats/acts of a story emerge organically when a process of subtractive editing is applied. But each to their own.
@@dreamslayer2424 Also Saunders and Pressfield are markedly different in approach in my analysis. There is some crossover of course, but I find the approaches incredibly distinct. The reason I cited them both is because they advocate for a strict subtractive editing, however beyond that, rather different. Both clearly work- different strokes for different folks I guess.
@@TeamSparkyMosquito How do you judge a work if you are comparing it to what others would do, how they would handle it, and then offering their methods? YOU inserted Saunders and Pressfield into the conversation. I simply followed up on it with additional information, which is still relevant.
@@dreamslayer2424 Here is my approach: 1) I read the short story. 2) I diagnosed what I considered to be something that wasn't working. 3) In an attempt to be helpful I cited two (different) approaches that in my experience can address the problem I diagnosed. That's all. You also mentioned Pressfield's editor, stating that he is the Story Grid founder and therefore has commonality with Tim, but my point is, why is that relevant if the short story I read by Tim didn't seem to have the brevity and conciseness that Pressfield encourages? I'm assessing only the short story I read. Perhaps with Shawn's editing input on Tim's story, he might say the same thing I'm saying? Furthermore though, an editor is an editor and a writer is a writer. Pressfield is the main creator of his work and has been writing for decades and while Shawn no doubt helped him in his process, I can't help but guess that most of what you read when you read Pressfield is, well, Pressfield.
I can very suspect when I see either the name Ethan or Layla, in a story since AI. Not that I have a problem with that. LOL - For anyone too dense, I'm not making accusations. It's just names that always show up when you ask AI for a name. I really do not have a problem and have no respect for anyone who does. If you ask AI to come up with some names for you.
That's because they are common. AI is just trained to regurgitate information stolen from writers using LLM and other scraping methods. And the names are simple and probably pass by without difficulty like a name such as Joaquin, Niamh, Aoife and such.
I'm not satisfied with your scene 2 analysis. Calling the mom the protagonist is a cop-out. It's a 1600 word scene and the mother doesn't appear in the first half and is the least important of the three characters present. It feels like an attempt to force the Story Grid structure, a square peg into a round hole. I get a Carl Popper vibe, where the methodology is unfalsifiable because we can just warp these concepts enough to fit any scene we write.
Then maybe the answer to your problem is that Story Grid is not for you. Search around and find something you think answers your questions 100% in an absolute way.
@@dreamslayer2424 It's frustrating because Story Grid does so many things right, it checks so many boxes, and many of its conclusions are powerful... and then it does things like this, which leaves me empty. It reminds me somewhat of the prescriptivist vs descriptivist debates in linguistics. Shawn and Tim have likely found a formula that accurately describes (most? many? nearly all?) great scenes, and they are now forcing it onto every scene as something that must occur. It works a lot of the time, maybe even most of the time, but prescribing that it must work all the time is (perhaps? likely?) a dogmatic assertion.
@@smithyq6335 I take nothing as an absolute. There are probably many stories that have variations on the technique and granted they may be used (intentionally) for a specific purpose; however, I would go beyond that and say that most individuals do not know enough about the basic structure of stories to innovate on that structure. I also note that this is, as he said, his first draft, and no first draft is ever perfect in itself, a lesson I wish a host of self-published authors would take to heart before they push their drafts out onto an unsuspecting pubic through various platforms.
I like you but the videos keep getting longer and longer. I’m at the point where I just start ignoring your videos because I just can’t spend an hour to absorb a couple of points.
Then perhaps it is time that you moved onto more bite-sized videos. Most of us enjoy the longer videos. Others want cookie-cutter quotes and these videos would not be for them and perhaps they can find something elsewhere that they can pay attention to and learn from.
I can't tell you enough how helpful this is Tim. Thanks so much! Really well-written and engaging short story that is helping me improve my scene writing.
Thank you, excellent presentation. I enjoyed your story and thought it was a perfect example of 'show not tell'. Not sure I felt the acceptance by his parents enabled him to confess his feelings for Meg - but loved his mother stepping in and saving him from saying to much! Loved your story.
It was so helpful! I know it was arduous work on your part to break your story down, but I learned so much. Specifically, how it was determined that Ethan's mother was the protagonist in scene 2 and why. I was struggling with this in my own analysis of my work.
Fantastic! This is very helpful. Thanks Tim. This story dives deep into the character's ultimate desire, fears and how he changes from start to finish in each scene. Very well done.
You really love writing stories to a song. Enjoyed this very much. (And the annotations were very helpful.)
That was a great story, I cried. I'll be back for the analysis part when I've calmed down. 😅 Thanks so much for sharing this with us
This is now my favorite Christmas short story. I told my friends before I listened to this video. Now I see how much it took to write it. One thing I learned: be specific, then amp it up. Thanks. Chris
Great short story. I think I'm starting to get it better, the story grid, now. Thanks.
Tim, a very solid story. Thank you for sharing it and the analysis of it.
Thank you. This is very helpful for learning scene.
Hey Tim, thanks for this, it’s a great exercise!
Here’s my confusion, though: most of the story is about this tension between his feelings for Meg and his social standing, which manifests as his inability to respond to her. It’s true that his obligation to his parents is an obstacle he faces, but I don’t think it is THE obstacle. The obstacle is self-confidence, which is overcome by having the idea for the perfect gift.
But the most energetic moment is when he’s facing Meg in that back lot and he holds the CD out to her in front of all these bullies. It seems like that is the climax and the crisis choice is like all the others: engage with Meg or hide from Meg.
Thanks Tim- I really enjoyed the story. I am really going to analyse the line by line- I think that will be the best way for me to learn 👍
An excellent story; I felt it. Kudos!
I enjoyed the story and your analysis was very informative. This was great!
I love the story, and I loved the exercise. I was interested in your Scene 2 explanation: for me it was Ethan's discovery of a super-personalized invitation, leading to the OOD of wanting permission to go without having to reveal why (it's a girl--it's private). The TP comes when his parents misunderstand the gravity of the situation; his crisis is tell them it's a girl he likes or not tell them, climax of course he doesn't tell them. And I read Scene 6 slightly differently as well--so many wonderful layers in your writing--I thought the TP was his mom showing up, because she gives Ethan an out. She raises an eyebrow at him. She's asking Are you okay or do you want me to go Mama Bear on this girl (the mom has just seen his heart break. Any threat of a repeat and she's gonna step in). Crisis is does he stay safe with mom or risk his heart again with Meg, and Climax, thank god, he chooses Meg. The last thing I want to say is how absolutely marvelous the moment with the father is for all the reasons you stated, and what I also took away was how perfectly double-meaning-ed it is (sorry, in my enthusiasm I'm making up words now). Getting hugs from parents can easily be viewed as a step backward for a young man, but by leaning into it Ethan actually takes a step forward in his maturity. He can act like a kid and lash out, or he can accept the embrace and grow up. And then the dad role models what you do after life knocks you down: you get back up and go to work! Thank you so much for sharing this. I'll remember this story for a long time.
Great story. Love the analysis. I like the fact that you went back to add certain elements to enhance your story. From the fact you were unsure of the protagonist in scene 2 (the mom), I'm assuming you had an idea of your story, but didn't outline first; question: do you think you would have written the same story if you had planned out the 5 commandments of each scene prior to writing your story?
I have often thought of making teaching videos for newer writers. But since I'm unpublished, It doesn't feel appropriate, still I'm writing roughly 3-4 novels a year.
Great story! Very well written. I didn’t have issues with identifying any of the global aspects of the story, but some of the scene by scene analysis threw me off the trail a bit. Scene 2 was troublesome. When I analyze scenes, I always assume the viewpoint character is the protagonist. I had Scene 2 broken down in a completely different way. I really enjoyed Tim’s breakdown of the story though. A lot of concepts that I struggled with in the past seemed to “click” into place for me after reading the story and watching Tim’s analysis. Can’t wait to apply some of these concepts in my own writing. Thanks again Tim for letting us look over your shoulder at your writing process.
Hi Tim. I have a none writing question. I was watching one of your videos cant remember which one. And you mentioned you train bjj. I was wondering what belt are you and where do you train to? I'm currently a blue belt in bjj and a yellow belt in judo. So, hence my curiosity.
Hey Peter, I'm a brown belt-been training for almost 8 years-and my academy is Artista in Nashville. - Tim
Is this on Notion? I'm just wondering as I've just started using it, and wondering how to best use it for organizing my stories & wiring if so (the comments on the right side of the page looks like google docs though) thanks!
Yes! I switched to Notion a year and a half ago and like it a lot. I still use Google Drive some, but all my personal stuff is in Notion now. - Tim
@@StoryGrid Amazing, thanks so much for letting me know!
Expecting video about how to find an story ideas
I liked the story Tim, thanks for the analysis, but has anyone else pointed out the head hopping in POV a few times (his Dad, and Meg) ? That always drops me out of the story.
mr tim, can you make a video on through the surface level?
yes.
My honest feedback on the story, and this might just be me, but it felt indulgent. Far too much description. Far too long before action. When the clutter gets removed, the meaning can shine. It's over 5k words, and I think you could tell this story in half of that. And IMO it would be more meaningful for it. Recommended reading to help with this approach: George Saunders' 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain' and Steven Pressfield's 'Nobody Wants to Read your Sh*t.' Peace and happy writing to you!
It's a first draft as he has said. Also having read Saunders and Pressfield, its just the same information packaged differently. Pressfield's editor was (and maybe still is) Shawn, who is the founder of Story Grid and can see the similarities in what Pressfield says and what is offered by Shawn and Tim, although you might have to spend some time actually studying it and looking for the connection.
@@dreamslayer2424 Interesting. I was responding only to the short story Tim posted that I read. I don't think it's productive to project what might be similar based on who is involved behind the scenes, rather it's best to the judge the work itself. And yes first drafts are one thing, but again, I was just sharing my response to what I read. Personally I don't find it very useful to break down a story too deeply until further revision has been made on the piece, because there is too much clutter making it hard to know what is important or not within the story. I find the beats/acts of a story emerge organically when a process of subtractive editing is applied. But each to their own.
@@dreamslayer2424 Also Saunders and Pressfield are markedly different in approach in my analysis. There is some crossover of course, but I find the approaches incredibly distinct. The reason I cited them both is because they advocate for a strict subtractive editing, however beyond that, rather different. Both clearly work- different strokes for different folks I guess.
@@TeamSparkyMosquito How do you judge a work if you are comparing it to what others would do, how they would handle it, and then offering their methods? YOU inserted Saunders and Pressfield into the conversation. I simply followed up on it with additional information, which is still relevant.
@@dreamslayer2424 Here is my approach: 1) I read the short story. 2) I diagnosed what I considered to be something that wasn't working. 3) In an attempt to be helpful I cited two (different) approaches that in my experience can address the problem I diagnosed. That's all. You also mentioned Pressfield's editor, stating that he is the Story Grid founder and therefore has commonality with Tim, but my point is, why is that relevant if the short story I read by Tim didn't seem to have the brevity and conciseness that Pressfield encourages? I'm assessing only the short story I read. Perhaps with Shawn's editing input on Tim's story, he might say the same thing I'm saying? Furthermore though, an editor is an editor and a writer is a writer. Pressfield is the main creator of his work and has been writing for decades and while Shawn no doubt helped him in his process, I can't help but guess that most of what you read when you read Pressfield is, well, Pressfield.
Is this a first draft?
A slightly edited first draft, yes. I didn’t do any extensive rewrites. - Tim
@@StoryGrid OK, got it - worried for a moment :)
I thought the story was great. The second scene with the protagonist threw me a curve ball.
Wanting a Tesla ... Yea it sucks.
I can very suspect when I see either the name Ethan or Layla, in a story since AI. Not that I have a problem with that. LOL
- For anyone too dense, I'm not making accusations. It's just names that always show up when you ask AI for a name. I really do not have a problem and have no respect for anyone who does. If you ask AI to come up with some names for you.
That's because they are common. AI is just trained to regurgitate information stolen from writers using LLM and other scraping methods. And the names are simple and probably pass by without difficulty like a name such as Joaquin, Niamh, Aoife and such.
Specificity!
Second comment - I don’t think Ethan could even choke out the word love.
I'm not satisfied with your scene 2 analysis. Calling the mom the protagonist is a cop-out. It's a 1600 word scene and the mother doesn't appear in the first half and is the least important of the three characters present. It feels like an attempt to force the Story Grid structure, a square peg into a round hole. I get a Carl Popper vibe, where the methodology is unfalsifiable because we can just warp these concepts enough to fit any scene we write.
Then maybe the answer to your problem is that Story Grid is not for you. Search around and find something you think answers your questions 100% in an absolute way.
@@dreamslayer2424 It's frustrating because Story Grid does so many things right, it checks so many boxes, and many of its conclusions are powerful... and then it does things like this, which leaves me empty.
It reminds me somewhat of the prescriptivist vs descriptivist debates in linguistics. Shawn and Tim have likely found a formula that accurately describes (most? many? nearly all?) great scenes, and they are now forcing it onto every scene as something that must occur. It works a lot of the time, maybe even most of the time, but prescribing that it must work all the time is (perhaps? likely?) a dogmatic assertion.
@@smithyq6335 I take nothing as an absolute. There are probably many stories that have variations on the technique and granted they may be used (intentionally) for a specific purpose; however, I would go beyond that and say that most individuals do not know enough about the basic structure of stories to innovate on that structure. I also note that this is, as he said, his first draft, and no first draft is ever perfect in itself, a lesson I wish a host of self-published authors would take to heart before they push their drafts out onto an unsuspecting pubic through various platforms.
I like you but the videos keep getting longer and longer. I’m at the point where I just start ignoring your videos because I just can’t spend an hour to absorb a couple of points.
Then perhaps it is time that you moved onto more bite-sized videos. Most of us enjoy the longer videos. Others want cookie-cutter quotes and these videos would not be for them and perhaps they can find something elsewhere that they can pay attention to and learn from.
So just watch 5-15 minutes at a time. It's not a movie you have to take in one sitting.