Comparing 4 Types of Needles on an Old Phonograph
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ส.ค. 2024
- This video is to compare how four different types of phonograph needles sound like on a 78 rpm record: Steel, Bamboo, Toothpick, Cactus. Record is played on all needles at different times:
Steel 0:28
Cactus 1:04
Toothpick 1:45
Bamboo 2:26
Yes, the bamboo plays well with less noise but it also sacrificed tone. The steel needle, oddly enough was the best sounding. The bamboo sounded like someone had thrown a blanket over the whole machine, it was muffled, definitely more mellow. I bet it was a lot less surface wear though. I'm trying to figure out if it was just a bad part of the record that the toothpick was allotted, sounded like a bit too much distortion. I think I'm sold on the cactus, now if I could just find a supplier...
Look up Burmese colour needles
really impressed by the bamboo needle the sound is much clearer.
Wow! That's a fine sounding machine! I'm impressed!
Despite the limitations of the test, it was still nice to hear the difference. And the differences are very audible. Thanks!
Thank you for this video, it is very educational.
I assumed that a cactus needle would go easy on a record, but I was surprised to see it shaving the record in this video. The steel needle didn't seem to shave the record, but the cactus needle did. Very surprising result! I was going to buy cactus needles in order to put less wear on my records, but now I'm having a second thought.
I noticed that the bamboo wedge play well. I could hardly hear the surface noise.
1 good point
That song you chose was very odd but I like it
It would be nice to see the same test done with an acoustic-era record for the sound recording reasons already mentioned, but also because of the very different form factor of grooves from records cut in that era.
That was really interesting.. I could not hear any discernable difference myself and very surprised by that... Was thinking of doing something similar... Very good vid...
MY GOOSSSHHHH TO HEARD GENE KRUPA ON DRUMS IS AMAZING.💚 THANKS FOR SHARING
Excellent sound quality regardless of material!
The steel seemed the best. The others had distortion. Bamboo wasn't too bad. Toothpick and cactus seem to show signs of shredding. If there was a way to harden the tip more, that would help.
Mark Markofkane I heard that too. Could also be related to inner groove distortion, since the steel was on the outside of the record.
I used needles for other 78's including some early rock & roll and rhythm & blues, but I have some bamboo wedge needles but it plays fine, but it gets distorted after certain plays, so I have to switch needles around.
I'd do them in the reverse order than this, for the wear reason you mentioned.
I use Steel needles. Since those are the ones that come with my gramophone when I get it.
I am wondering what type of acoustic needles are best for softer newer records.
The stylus of electric pickup puts virtually no pressure on the record, while a reproducer of a mechanical machine weights 100-150 gram. A soft vinyl is not designed to withstand such pressure, it won't survive for long.
Some of you are talking like everyone got rid of their acoustic record players as soon as electric reproducers came out. Take a look through old Sears-Roebuck & Montgomery Wards catalogs. While people with more money could afford electrics (when you look through the catalogs, adjust the prices for inflation), acoustic machines were sold well into the 1950's (especially for portables). Also, MANY Victrola's, Grafonola's, & other internal horn machines were in use well throughout the war years & after.
Underrated comment
I feel the steele needle pos the best though all had bad and good points
Which needle damages the record the least
steel as long as yi change often.
When I saw the cactus needle before I watched this video, I thought that it'll be the needle which is made of corundum.
Sapphire suppose be best for 78s tooth pick out of those most likely damage record less. Diamond good for 45s lps
I have used Diamond needles for 78s since 2011 and they seem to work the best. Sapphire needles work pretty good for 78s as well, but don’t last as long.
that,s what I think too.
Thats a good gramophon, think every needle include the toothpich tough, sound different but ok
Not the best disc to test non steel needles on. This 'modern' disc was supposed to be played with electrical pick-up that could cope with the high modulation of later electrical recording. Mind you these early pick ups were sometimes weighty brutes!
i use fine wire soft needles for my 20,s records upto the mid 30,s after that you need a stylus you may be able to play fourties on super fine steel wires but its risky due to much finer groves wilth ffr modulation ..jeff
how do i change out the needle correcrly after use, without breaking the reproducer?
Very simple my friend just turn the screw sticking out the side
To my ears, the bamboo was the best because it dampened the tinny sound.
I prefer contemporary record players with a diamond stylus every time.
What about tube amplified record players from the 1940s-60s? lol
@@oldradiosnphonographs Just personal preference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but in the context of this video I prefer diamond over cactus, wood or steel.
@@oldradiosnphonographs I've never tried a tube amplified system, and I've heard they sound great. They're really expensive though, and I lack the knowledge to maintain it.
@@alternateunreleasedshellac505 I admit i'm not technically inclined in soldering and replacing caps (paranoid about getting zapped) so it's good i know someone who can repair them. I have this 1954 Columbia model portable from with a GE rpx series cart that I replaced the motor mounting grommets in and got all speeds to work and got the changer to function, but the electronics part is out of my ability.
depends on record pressing too,tricky to cater for such a wide range of pressings,all so dam different
Steel.
Wonder how a throne would work?
I don't know why you used this record for the experiment: it was not designed for any of these acoustic needles. Also, gramophones have horns, not speakers.
Since you know about needles will u help me please?!
My dream came true n I got a Harmony R-1 phonograph. It needs some love but works. I really appreciate n care about very much!
Heres question;when I got phonograph it had needles. I have 2 left n trying to order new ones off ebay. Problem is mine have thin long needle on end. All pics i see are just round steel no needle on end.
I'm a newbie but am i just stupid?
Ty for ur time.
@@MarkousMajorSurf what do you mean by "thin long needle" and "round no needle"? There are different types of steel needles, all the way from extra soft to extra loud, and these can have a slightly different appearance, but I'm not sure what you mean.
@@patryknowicki4536 thier is like a sewing needle that sticks out from metal casing.
All needles I see on ebay are solid steel, no needle coming out of it.
@@MarkousMajorSurf you mean like these? www.etsy.com/se-en/listing/993501436/victrola-talking-machine-and-columbia?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=columbia+needles&ref=sr_gallery-1-3&from_market_listing_grid_organic=1
It doesn't matter, as long as you're playing pre-1950s 78rpm shellac records, any steel needle will do. It's certainly much better to play them with new, different needles, than old, rusted original needles. All those different types were just introduced to either look more interesting, or have some novelty, like those spear-headed ones which could change the volume by changing the angle of the needle.
If that was what you were asking for, I can help you find the best needles for your preference.
If that isn't what you were asking for, could I have a link to the gramophone you have? Could just be something I've never heard of before, since I couldn't find it on the internet.
That's like saying it's bad to play modern lp's on an lp record player from the late 1940s. They're still interchangeable, but the record will sound better on a machine from its Era.
What about comparing needles?
One flaw in this test I see is the mismatched frequency response curves between the late 1940's recording and the gramophone playback.
The mechanical gramophone naturally follows a constant velocity response. That is output level at a specific frequency is determined by stylus velocity, not amplitude. That mean bass frequency records grooves must have wide a wide amplitude lateral swing and high treble frequencies a much smaller amplitude swing to provide the same loudness.
Electronic playback which had superseded mechanical playback fully by the late 1930's in the US had taken advantage of altering the record playback response to reduce high frequency noise by boosting highs when recording and attenuating electronically at playback. Likewise wide amplitude groove swings at bass frequencies were reduced by cutting bass,at recording and boosting electronically at playback.
Hence the test here is not accurate and inconclusive when using the Gene Krupa record which is incompatible with the mechanical gramophone.
True. This with a period correct disc would have been so much better for demonstration
The only difference I've noticed between playing a record from 1947 on a player from the same year and playing the same record on an acoustic machine is that they sound louder and more distorted on the acoustic, which can be solved by using a soft-tone steel needle instead of medium or loud. Otherwise, both turntables sound similar(the newer player sounds better of course). At least that's what I've learned by experimenting with needle types.
Edit: by 1938, electric players were the only thing being sold EXCEPT for most portables, which still used mechanical playback until the decline of the 78 in the mid 1950s. Keep in mind that most of the electric players sold were a combination unit with a radio, which was more expensive than keeping an old turntable and buying a separate radio, and record changers were even more expensive. Which is why I personally think electric record players didn't become more popular until after the depression and world war 2. I could be wrong though.
@@randomperson7443 the pre emphasis of the highs in the 40's recording coupled with the constant velocity characteristic of acoustic playback will accentuate the distortion. And also must be included is the poor tracking compliance of the acoustic soundbox.
These problems will be alleviated to some degree by using fiber instead of shell mainly because the soft fiber stylus will deform improving compliance and forming a crude low pass filter.
It is said fibre needles tend to pick up abrasive matter and lap the grooves. This provides ay treenother form of wear which is not obvious to the eye yet causes distortion.
The answer remains that a pickup with appropriate characteristics with a stylus which properly fits the groove is best.
this does indeed play a crucial part in the demonstaration.
These machines destroy records, regardless of the needle. You can't defy the physics of a heavy reproducer and the resulting low compliance. These things should be a museum novelty and no important records should be played on them. Get an AT-120 or similar with a 78 cartridge and stylus and give your records some TLC and permanence.
The majority of damage on these records are from repeated use on a SINGLE USE steel needle. That’s why you don’t use a needle NO more than ONCE with the soundboxes rebuilt with new rubber gaskets and don’t play anything too valuable on ‘em! stick to Sousa Marches or Caruso or Billy Murray. Nothing worth a lot of money. You can own these machines and be responsible. an Uncle Josh or Henry Burr record isn’t gonna hurt. But something really expensive or rare I understand the need to treat those with the upmost of care. Especially labels by the WI Chair Factory the idiots that worked there totally pulled a DUMont and shortsightedly threw masters in the river.
You can also get a restored tube amp console player from the 1940s 50s and 60s too and play em on those!! (That’s what I like to play more valuable and post 1935 78s on) I have a ATLP120 but I broke the 78 stylus on the mono cart I bought for that turntable and I’m too damn cheap to get a $89 replacement so I play em on a Meissner turntable from 1947! (Also a radio and a acetate record cutter too!) Or my Magnavox console radio from 1946 with the Webster Chicago changer. One day I’ll get my ‘47 zenith console working with the cobra turntable.
I disagree on the novelty comment. I've been playing the same 1930s Django Reinhardt and 1920s jazz 78s on my 97 year old Victrola for over 14 years now and they still sound great to me. I follow the one needle per one or two plays rule.
@@voltaire7545 you will not be able to detect deterioration on the windup very easily because the fidelity is so low at baseline. It is only when you use good equipment that is becomes noticeable. Physics does not care about your opinion.
I have a modern turntable with a Shure SC35 cartridge/78rpm stylus with very nice Klipsch speakers which I use more often than the Victrola, so I can definitely hear the true quality of the records. I'm not saying that the Victrola doesn't cause deterioration (obviously it will), I'm just saying that after 14 years of playing a particular set of 78s (ones I designated for the Victrola) that I haven't noticed a real difference in quality. I actually just digitized several of the 78s and they sound pretty amazing.