1. Thank you for the video. 2. Thank you for asking this group of questions, obviously coming from your experience and desire for relevant insights, not just some "let's ask Neil and Mac some general questions about women's cycling". 3. We have been watching some women's cycling on Eurosport and my wife asked me why the elite women couldn't compete with the men. I said I didn't think they could, but I didn't know why I felt that. After all, Marianna Vos would rip my legs off, but I'm not an elite or pro male cyclist. We really enjoy watching women's racing whether on the road, track or off road, it's interesting to know the real physiological differences that lay behind performance. 4. I compete in multi day mountain bike stage races, along with women. Although physical strength is a factor, one thing I have noticed time and time again, is women's mental strength, something that you did not touch on. On numerous occasions I have been beaten to the line on any given day by women who were not physically stronger, but mentally stronger, if we are talking about relative suffering, they can do more of it for longer (even if I now know it takes longer for them to recover). 5. It's interesting to have a reaffirmation that "one size does not fit all" in regards to training, recovery and data collation (such as Training Peaks), whether that relates to sex, age or physical make up. Overall: I'll be watching this again and hopefully with my wife, who is just becoming interested in cycling and is currently enjoying the smart trainer after work, with a first ride in a charity event planned for September (30kms on a mountain bike). Thank you for the insights.
Aside from the monthly cycle, I wonder if the same applies to older male athletes. We also lose peak strength and testosterone levels as we age and need more time for recovery. Aging female athletes have the additional complication of bone density loss. I’ve looked at world record times for Masters Swimmers. Female performance drops off sooner and more gradually with age, is well down by 60 and continues a slow descent. Men have less drop off until about 75. At 80, performance starts dropping like a rock. World record times literally start doubling with each five years of age. I wonder if cycling performance with age and gender is similar.
Hi Jon - for sure there are changes that occur with aging athletes dues to decreased testosterone levels & sarcopenia, and men are also impacted by reduced bone density with age, especially those involved predominantly in non-weight bearing sports like cycling and swimming. There's a nice review article about changes in performance in masters athletes focusing predominantly on endurance sports at: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375571/ The focus on our discussion with Michelle was about some of the differences between men and women with regard to power output and training based on our experience working with some of the worlds best female cyclists as well as the large group data set that we see working with users of The Sufferfest app who encompass a much larger range of age and fitness levels than we see in the elite population.
Thanks! Yeah, age is off topic, but it’s interesting to look at the differences there too. Could be the topic of a future video... It’s great that you looked at gender differences. It’s amazing how slanted the studies are towards male athletes. Great vid!
Jon Fairhurst I am reading Fast after 50 by John Friel, and use the Sufferfest App for my workouts, basically the book explains that us, the aging cyclists needed what that app has, hard intervals, that address all the 4dp spectrum of workouts, but, need more rest and weeks of 10 or 12 days. Meaning more rest in between hard training. At the moment, I have not seen a training plan for aging cyclists in the app, also I have not asked for it...Hope it helps.
Great video. I'm really sick of reading studies about sport based around blokes. Interesting about ATL especially as a 48yr old! Thanks, that book in the video looked good too 👍 more stuff like this would be great
Sir Neal, the leucine comment intregued me. How many mgs should women be consuming in the BCAA blend, and is there any science in the timing of taking that supplement (before or after working out for example)
Hi Lora - I don't have much information regarding intake prior, though there is some evidence of 1-2 grams BCAA in a sports drink being beneficial for long duration exercises. For recovery, often 15-20 grams of protein with about 25% as leucine is supported by research like: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29529146
My hubby is bigger, stronger and faster than I am, but he can’t keep up a high level of performance without lots more rest. I thought this was just a given-that women can maintain a more consistent level of performance than men-since women tend to outlast men on longevity.
This is only looking at female specific training through the eyes of two males, rather than actually looking at facts, research and working with female physiology. Pretty disappointing. I guess you are recommending strength training, which all women should be doing. So, not all bad . . . . . As previously suggested, please educate yourselves on female specific training and nutrition.
Did any of these people watch Le Course this year where a woman outperformed men on some stages? I know it is not the normal result, but when it comes to endurance and recovery, testosterone is not the only factor. Many training females I know outperform and outlast men in their clubs... more research is needed... imho.
I certainly did! (www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/marianne-vos-win-la-course-2019-tense-chase-final-metres-431799). Neal coaches women within the current UCI WWT peloton as well. The fairly unique strength The Sufferfest has is access to a huge database of average athlete power over 5s, 1min, 5min, 20min - segregated by gender. We're focusing specifically at the top end of that: 5 second power. The slide at 4mins5secs shows that, on average, women's 5s power is a lower % of their ftp. The differences become much smaller, then negligible, as distance increases - and it's testosterone, and greater muscle mass, plus more fast twitch muscle fibres, which drives the 5s power difference according to Mac and Neal.
Too bad the experts had no idea about women. Several studies have been done within the Crossfit community about female competitors. The experts failed to mention which part of the female cycle is best for training and recovery. Also, recovery nutrition for female endurance athletes was not accurate. Too bad. This could have been a great video.
the easy answer is no, my daughter seemed a little upset a few weeks ago, shes 12 and complained that a lad 2 years above her kept beating her (she still hasnt succumbed to the men are just inherently stronger idea yet) so i said, who is he, does he run for a club or anything and she said he did. I just gave her my running clubs drills, made her do 10% more on top, focus on some breathing drills and basically match and more the other lads training . .because i knew exactly where he trained and he is pretty fast. Anyway, she twatted him the last time out by 17 seconds. Its interesting to watch now as if they both keep it up, we can see at what point a 12 vs a 14 year old male to female starts to differ . . if it is a matter of her training harder weve already got our heads ready to suck it up. Im dead proud. hope you are reading about her soon! Oh she blitzes everyone her age on the bike, leg power dudes . .dont skip the day!
For some reason, you have overlooked the most obvious answer: most probably yes, because they compete in very different events, women's races are almost all shorter and easier for the same category racer (professional, Category 1, 2, etc). This answer is the same for the similar question: "Do professionals and amateurs need to train differently?" Things get interesting when you take into account the fact that cyclocross riders have been winning World Tour races and road riders have been winning Olympic track gold medals. If you want a more correct comparison of men vs. women's training, look at similar sports where almost all events are the same, e.g., short track speed skating where there is only one small difference, the distance of the relay race. The physiological principles of this sport and cycling are very similar.
Do keep in mind that there are more and more events where women are competing in the same distances as men including many events in track cycling, in triathlons, and in long distance cycling events like Leadville 100 as well as ultra-distance and gravel races.
@@APEXCoaching You mean like the 1995 Race Across America, where a woman finished 4th? As for track cycling, I believe that calling 3 out of 10 "many" is highly debatable. Of the 10 UCI world championship medal events: Match Sprint, Individual Pursuit, Team Pursuit, 1km and 500m Time Trial, Points Race, Keirin, Team Sprint, Madison, Scratch Race, Omnium, the only ones with the same distance are the Match Sprint, Team Pursuit, Keirin. See www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/3-pis-20190620-e_english.pdf
HI Ilan - I'm not sure how you've determined that "women's races are almost all shorter and easier..." especially when recently published research indicates that while the women's races are shorter, they are in fact relatively speaking MORE intense than the men's races: www.researchgate.net/publication/326858842_Intensity_and_Load_Characteristics_of_Professional_Road_Cycling_Differences_Between_Men's_and_Women's_Races And we of course believe that professionals and amateurs need to train differently based on the type of event, work and other responsibilities impacting time/ability to recover, as well as gender.
@@nealhenderson6648 It's because I was not "speaking relatively" like you just were. And if you're still not sure about the difference in difficulty, check out the difference in course length and elevation gain between men and women's professional racing, maybe that will give you a clue to base your research.
@@ilanpi Not sure about the 1995 RAAM but Fiona Kolbinger just won the 2019 Transcontinental Bike Race (www.bicycling.com/racing/a28627301/fiona-kolbinger-transcontinental-race/). We are happy that there are now 3 of the 10 events for track cycling at equal distance for men and women and hope to see all 10 become equal soon!
1. Thank you for the video. 2. Thank you for asking this group of questions, obviously coming from your experience and desire for relevant insights, not just some "let's ask Neil and Mac some general questions about women's cycling". 3. We have been watching some women's cycling on Eurosport and my wife asked me why the elite women couldn't compete with the men. I said I didn't think they could, but I didn't know why I felt that. After all, Marianna Vos would rip my legs off, but I'm not an elite or pro male cyclist. We really enjoy watching women's racing whether on the road, track or off road, it's interesting to know the real physiological differences that lay behind performance. 4. I compete in multi day mountain bike stage races, along with women. Although physical strength is a factor, one thing I have noticed time and time again, is women's mental strength, something that you did not touch on. On numerous occasions I have been beaten to the line on any given day by women who were not physically stronger, but mentally stronger, if we are talking about relative suffering, they can do more of it for longer (even if I now know it takes longer for them to recover). 5. It's interesting to have a reaffirmation that "one size does not fit all" in regards to training, recovery and data collation (such as Training Peaks), whether that relates to sex, age or physical make up. Overall: I'll be watching this again and hopefully with my wife, who is just becoming interested in cycling and is currently enjoying the smart trainer after work, with a first ride in a charity event planned for September (30kms on a mountain bike). Thank you for the insights.
This is a good question, hadn't really thought about it before.
Aside from the monthly cycle, I wonder if the same applies to older male athletes. We also lose peak strength and testosterone levels as we age and need more time for recovery.
Aging female athletes have the additional complication of bone density loss.
I’ve looked at world record times for Masters Swimmers. Female performance drops off sooner and more gradually with age, is well down by 60 and continues a slow descent. Men have less drop off until about 75. At 80, performance starts dropping like a rock. World record times literally start doubling with each five years of age.
I wonder if cycling performance with age and gender is similar.
It's the same in running. In general, it appears that trained athletes lose about 10% performance per decade.
Hi Jon - for sure there are changes that occur with aging athletes dues to decreased testosterone levels & sarcopenia, and men are also impacted by reduced bone density with age, especially those involved predominantly in non-weight bearing sports like cycling and swimming. There's a nice review article about changes in performance in masters athletes focusing predominantly on endurance sports at: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2375571/ The focus on our discussion with Michelle was about some of the differences between men and women with regard to power output and training based on our experience working with some of the worlds best female cyclists as well as the large group data set that we see working with users of The Sufferfest app who encompass a much larger range of age and fitness levels than we see in the elite population.
Thanks! Yeah, age is off topic, but it’s interesting to look at the differences there too. Could be the topic of a future video...
It’s great that you looked at gender differences. It’s amazing how slanted the studies are towards male athletes. Great vid!
Jon Fairhurst I am reading Fast after 50 by John Friel, and use the Sufferfest App for my workouts, basically the book explains that us, the aging cyclists needed what that app has, hard intervals, that address all the 4dp spectrum of workouts, but, need more rest and weeks of 10 or 12 days. Meaning more rest in between hard training. At the moment, I have not seen a training plan for aging cyclists in the app, also I have not asked for it...Hope it helps.
Great video. I'm really sick of reading studies about sport based around blokes. Interesting about ATL especially as a 48yr old! Thanks, that book in the video looked good too 👍 more stuff like this would be great
If you have any specific topics you'd like us to cover or questions you need answering, let us know!
Sir Neal, the leucine comment intregued me. How many mgs should women be consuming in the BCAA blend, and is there any science in the timing of taking that supplement (before or after working out for example)
Hi Lora - I don't have much information regarding intake prior, though there is some evidence of 1-2 grams BCAA in a sports drink being beneficial for long duration exercises. For recovery, often 15-20 grams of protein with about 25% as leucine is supported by research like: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29529146
My hubby is bigger, stronger and faster than I am, but he can’t keep up a high level of performance without lots more rest. I thought this was just a given-that women can maintain a more consistent level of performance than men-since women tend to outlast men on longevity.
Sounds like you guys need to read Roar by dr Stacy Sims #expert female physiologist for athletic women
Currently half way through it :-)
This is only looking at female specific training through the eyes of two males, rather than actually looking at facts, research and working with female physiology. Pretty disappointing. I guess you are recommending strength training, which all women should be doing. So, not all bad . . . . . As previously suggested, please educate yourselves on female specific training and nutrition.
Did any of these people watch Le Course this year where a woman outperformed men on some stages? I know it is not the normal result, but when it comes to endurance and recovery, testosterone is not the only factor. Many training females I know outperform and outlast men in their clubs... more research is needed... imho.
I certainly did! (www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/marianne-vos-win-la-course-2019-tense-chase-final-metres-431799). Neal coaches women within the current UCI WWT peloton as well. The fairly unique strength The Sufferfest has is access to a huge database of average athlete power over 5s, 1min, 5min, 20min - segregated by gender. We're focusing specifically at the top end of that: 5 second power. The slide at 4mins5secs shows that, on average, women's 5s power is a lower % of their ftp. The differences become much smaller, then negligible, as distance increases - and it's testosterone, and greater muscle mass, plus more fast twitch muscle fibres, which drives the 5s power difference according to Mac and Neal.
When women outperform men, its because the men have had too much beer the night before.
@@MichelleArthursBrennan well done on the recent videos. You're a good addition to the cycling weekly crew.
@@chrisvanbuggenum871 Thanks!
Too bad the experts had no idea about women. Several studies have been done within the Crossfit community about female competitors. The experts failed to mention which part of the female cycle is best for training and recovery. Also, recovery nutrition for female endurance athletes was not accurate. Too bad. This could have been a great video.
the easy answer is no, my daughter seemed a little upset a few weeks ago, shes 12 and complained that a lad 2 years above her kept beating her (she still hasnt succumbed to the men are just inherently stronger idea yet) so i said, who is he, does he run for a club or anything and she said he did. I just gave her my running clubs drills, made her do 10% more on top, focus on some breathing drills and basically match and more the other lads training . .because i knew exactly where he trained and he is pretty fast. Anyway, she twatted him the last time out by 17 seconds. Its interesting to watch now as if they both keep it up, we can see at what point a 12 vs a 14 year old male to female starts to differ . . if it is a matter of her training harder weve already got our heads ready to suck it up. Im dead proud. hope you are reading about her soon! Oh she blitzes everyone her age on the bike, leg power dudes . .dont skip the day!
Great topic.
She sounds congested AF though
I guess first the research is needed... then we can talk about the facts!! they really were guessing much... unfortunately...
For some reason, you have overlooked the most obvious answer: most probably yes, because they compete in very different events, women's races are almost all shorter and easier for the same category racer (professional, Category 1, 2, etc). This answer is the same for the similar question: "Do professionals and amateurs need to train differently?"
Things get interesting when you take into account the fact that cyclocross riders have been winning World Tour races and road riders have been winning Olympic track gold medals.
If you want a more correct comparison of men vs. women's training, look at similar sports where almost all events are the same, e.g., short track speed skating where there is only one small difference, the distance of the relay race. The physiological principles of this sport and cycling are very similar.
Do keep in mind that there are more and more events where women are competing in the same distances as men including many events in track cycling, in triathlons, and in long distance cycling events like Leadville 100 as well as ultra-distance and gravel races.
@@APEXCoaching You mean like the 1995 Race Across America, where a woman finished 4th?
As for track cycling, I believe that calling 3 out of 10 "many" is highly debatable. Of the 10 UCI world championship medal events: Match Sprint, Individual Pursuit, Team Pursuit, 1km and 500m Time Trial, Points Race, Keirin, Team Sprint, Madison, Scratch Race, Omnium, the only ones with the same distance are the Match Sprint, Team Pursuit, Keirin. See www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/3-pis-20190620-e_english.pdf
HI Ilan - I'm not sure how you've determined that "women's races are almost all shorter and easier..." especially when recently published research indicates that while the women's races are shorter, they are in fact relatively speaking MORE intense than the men's races: www.researchgate.net/publication/326858842_Intensity_and_Load_Characteristics_of_Professional_Road_Cycling_Differences_Between_Men's_and_Women's_Races
And we of course believe that professionals and amateurs need to train differently based on the type of event, work and other responsibilities impacting time/ability to recover, as well as gender.
@@nealhenderson6648 It's because I was not "speaking relatively" like you just were. And if you're still not sure about the difference in difficulty, check out the difference in course length and elevation gain between men and women's professional racing, maybe that will give you a clue to base your research.
@@ilanpi Not sure about the 1995 RAAM but Fiona Kolbinger just won the 2019 Transcontinental Bike Race (www.bicycling.com/racing/a28627301/fiona-kolbinger-transcontinental-race/). We are happy that there are now 3 of the 10 events for track cycling at equal distance for men and women and hope to see all 10 become equal soon!
Super movies 👍 Thank you 🚵 CHICAGO 💖🇵🇱 POLAND 🇵🇱🚴🇵🇱🚵🇵🇱🚴
She should smile more