The Tragedy Of Fighting Games.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 พ.ค. 2023
- The Tragedy Of Fighting Games. Perhaps a spicy video, but I think it's important to keep it real (sometimes). Today I am talking about one of my favorite video game genres of all time, fighting games. Fighting games are in my top three alongside shmups and beat em' ups. I have been playing fighting games in a competitive and then semi-competitive since around 2010 or so, so I've been around and plugged into the genre for a long time. Today I am discussing what I like to call the tragedy of fighting games, in that no matter how good a fighting game is, no matter how much the player base loves that individual game, all fighting games are doomed to an early appointment with the grim reaper. Even games that have longstanding player bases like Super Smash Bros Melee and Street Fighter 3, Third Strike (or even Street Fighter 2, Super Turbo) cannot continue onward into future generations and be played in a full competitive manner. What I mean is that just being able to match make in a game every now and then is not good enough. In reality most fighting games are only intensely explored and played during a five year window or so, and then that game is put aside for the next iteration of the series.
What I find tragic about this though, in the literal sense of the word, is that this fate is inescapable from what I have observed. No matter what approach a developer or fan base take, the end of the game being played at full capacity seems fated. I go into specific detail of why this is in the video.
So this video is not meant to be a critique or warning against the genre, but rather a somber celebration of what makes the genre so special and also, ultimately, tragic.
I thought it would be fun to discuss this video in light of the upcoming releases of Tekken 8 and Street Fighter 6. At this point I am fully planning on playing Tekken 8 unless it is some kind of abomination, and my interest in the Street Fighter franchise as it is currently being made is gone. But I think I will review and discuss both games here on the channel as I think that will be interesting, as fighting game reviews from impartial experienced players are rather rare. I also am really into Guilty Gear XX Accent Core right now as well as DOA, so I plan on doing some vids about those games in the future as well
Thumbnail made by me this time! Though @boghogSTG still helped with advice on how to touch it up.
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||MY ESSAY ON MELEE'S POPULARITY||
As promised here is my little essay on Melee's popularity. So if you ask melee players - maybe not so much now but def up to 2022 - most melee players firmly believe that the game will be played very far into the future. That melee is the one exception to the rule and that it will not fall into the fighting game graveyard. Why exactly this is, melee players rarely spell out, but it's usually based on the idea that the game is extremely great and unique (which I fully believe as a massive melee player myself).
That being said though, there are actually many amazing and truly great and unique fighting games that have fallen into the graveyard, such as Soul Caliber 2, Dead or Alive 4, Guilty Gear XX, and pretty much all of the Virtua Fighter Series. In my opinion, quality of gameplay helps extend the life of a fighting game, but it will not stop it from crashing. That being said, melee is absolutely a unique case and has bucked the trend more successfully than any other game. The reason for this though has to do much more with perfect timing, being associated with the most powerful gaming franchises of all time, and an extremely powerful social network developed around the game.
Also Nintendo accidentally helped melee a bunch by fumbling with the Smash series so much.
To begin with, since the follow up game to Melee, Smash Brawl, was so truly bad that even casual players noticed how dumbed down and lame it was (and yes I know the sales of the game are very high, but it can be argued that those high sales are due to the legacy that Melee setup, just like how Star Wars Ep 1 had a massive box office), Nintendo for many years did not offer a valid alternative to Melee.
[Due to word limit, Essay Continued on this google doc: docs.google.com/document/d/1x... ]
#streetfighter6, #tekken8, #guiltygearstrive - เกม
I used to organize tournaments at multiple local events, and 3rd Strike annoys me so much. Everyone loves to claim they play it and how great it would be to see a tournament, but every time I set one up maybe two people show. I think people are more interested in watching someone else play it well, rather than build themselves to that level.
I can only imagine how annoying it must've been; could low level tourneys be possible or it just doesn't matter? Because I like the game alot.
100% that is such a common example with all these games my dude!! I've been there with 3rd strike like I say in my story where I showed up to my local and everyone would say that they think 3rd strike is cool, but no one actually wanted to play it. This is absolutely the case with VF. If you post about VF you'll have piles of people saying how much they respect the game, but no and and I mean NO ONE will actually want to play it. Yes, with these retirement home games, people mostly just enjoy watching them played rather than playing them, because learning them is a massive investment with very little pay off.
@@TheElectricUnderground that stinks really is no way for folks to get hooked into a tournament huh?
Felt this heavily. As a Marvel 2 player, it's very disheartening to see people talk about how cool Marvel 2 is without understanding anything about it nor trying to play it, despite how there's better resources to learn and now more accessible. (Even if I don't like fightcade)
Anyone who seriously plays 3S these days does it online through Fightcade. Nobody wants to engage in actual, physical interaction. And really, can you blame them anymore?
Glad you mentioned VF4 single player because that is basically what I'd want from every fighting game. As you get older, you go from having too much time to having too little. The social component is important but sometimes I want to enjoy the artistic component, too. Boomer shooters, beat em ups, and pixel art jrpgs are still going strong because of single player.
I feel the same way! When i first started playing fighitng games I was all about the online and thought that single player stuff is a waste of time. but then once people started to drop off the games that I liked, I realized that the single player stuff is extremely important because it's the one part of the game that will not disappear.
Is "boomer shooter" another name for shoot 'em ups? Or FPS games in the style of, like, Doom?
@@oldschoolhistory3246 Boomer shooters are Doom clones. 40k Boltgun is a recent example.
@@oldschoolhistory3246 Games like Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior, and Quake. Prodeus is a really good boomer shooter if you want to see what modern boomer shooters are like.
Fighting games are the ultimate FOMO
I mean they'd be great if the online lobbies weren't full of people playing fighting games for the past 38 years
They really are ha
FOMO: fear of missing oki
@@proggz39If there were more newbies that problem can be remedied.
Literally all competitive games are like this, don't think you're hot shit at lol, overwatch, fortnite or anything else lol
Did ever hear the tragedy of Street Fighter V "the base game"? I thought not, it's not a story Capcom would tell you...
I do remember! Yes wasn't there some point in Sf5 release where it was supposed to me the last street fighter and that capcom basically planned to turn it into league of legends where it would just keep updating forever? I swear I remember hearing about that but while making the video I couldn't track down any articles about it.
It was rushed to release before all the basic features were even available, all so Capcom could jeep up with the timing of the Pro Circuit. So we basically paid full price for a fraction of the game. On a casual level, this game failed and never really recovered.
And this is why Aris was right about what he said: no matter how shitty an entry is, it will survive BECAUSE it is Street Fighter. If SFV were released under any other name or IP, It would have been dead in the ground the day it launched.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, there was all kinds of justification for it like "we intended to do this", "we were releasing it this way to help the pro players who are early adopters" and of course "this is a never ending experience, story mode is coming." You know they weren't even going to have story mode until the backlash ha. It was a strange move in an era where story modes were for the first time in ages a selling point for games. IT felt like they changed their marketing to turn it's unfinished state into a selling point. To this day I'd rather play Super Street fighter 4 and since Street Fighter V was a PS4 exclusive I often do.
While it is tragic that the competitive scenes for fighting games eventually decline, I actually find that some games like bbcf and mbaacc, are more fun to watch now that they are past their competitive peaks, as there is much more character diversity, riskier play, and more refined usage of technical characters. When a fighting game is in its competitive prime, there are greater stakes and pressure on competitive players to stick to the meta and play it safe, which can get stale after a while.
I have really begun to appreciate the many different types of fighting game fans. Some people essentially just play training mode and maybe make combo videos or w/e. others fight against the cpu and enjoy other single player modes. And then there are those who get really invested in the story, characters and lore. Fighting games actually have a lot to offer beyond the social/competitive aspect.
I have also been playing a lot of ggxxac+r and doa5 recently. I have been playing +r off and on for about a year now, but I'm just getting into doa for the first time and I've gotta say, it's crazy fun.
Yes there is something to be said about when the game enters the retirement home, it is typically a much more chill and positive environment, and only the true Gs are left to play ha. For me though it is a bit frustrating because when I really love a game and have fun playing it, I crave to get more activity and supplementary material. For example the other day I searched high and low for a podcast about Guilty Gear XX, but one does not exist :-(
@@TheElectricUnderground I know the feeling, but generally, I go looking for art books and official guides.
Lol this is relatable, I got into fighting games with MvC3 and stuck with UMvC3 until Infinite released and the entire scene just vanished overnight.
I remember! I never played MvC3 but it was at my local for years. Then infinite came out and that was it, goodbye MvC3. :-(
Isn't UMvC3 being played in Combo Breaker?
I am sure that would imply the existence of some scene.
It reminds me a bit of how guilty gear strive kinda destroyed/disrupted the old guilty gear community in a lot of ways
If strive hadnt attracted as many newer players it might have had a similar effect
The real tragedy is the new norm of putting the vast majority of the character roster behind paid DLC. Older fighting games, like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, were so enjoyable because you could UNLOCK bonus characters simply by playing the game.
Excellent comment, I agree 100%. That’s why I stopped buying games like Mortal Kombat when they release. I learned my lesson with MK9 and now I wait to get the compete editions with all DLC characters whenever they become available.
except the roster was big because it was made with assets from like half a dozen games before it.
Let's not forget the physical aspect. Digital only? DLC, characters and entire games might be lost to time...
Because of this I refuse to buy a Vs Fighter on release and wait for a complete package. I bought SFV and Tekken 7 fairly recently with most of the DLC included.
Oh i know!! the games as service model of fighting games i do mention because it's an example where let's say the devs do support a game via marketing and tournaments, well the trade off for that is that the devs then need to continue to monetize the game by adding extra content (or doing nasty stuff like dlc on disc) and in this process the game is actually changed. It's a total catch 22.
As an FGC boomer that has been playing since 1991 SF2, I can relate to your frustration. However I feel it is necessary and important for the elders and fans in the community to do what the Cannon brothers did when creating what became EVO, and advocate for and cultivate a player base for your favorite titles. Hopefully, resulting in an annual co-event or something. There are more than enough tournaments out there, so if such an event/community could be cultivated it could make the rounds at some of the major tournaments as a showcase for beloved games. I am also a Virtua Fighter fan, and it pains me that the series never achieved the success the series did in Japan because in it's formative years it was always on less popular consoles, and Sega did an awful job on the Dreamcast port of VF3 and waiting a year to release the Dreamcast in America allowed Namco to show them up on their own console with Soul Calibur. Unforgivable! Virtua Fighter would only gain more acceptance in the West when Sega finally exited the console market and ported VF4 to Playstation 2. A bittersweet victory, but it always played second fiddle to Namco fighters despite the series prestige. Then Sega and Yu Suzuki parting ways left the series in limbo. In general fighting games are pretty schizophrenic, always needing to reinvent themselves (always throws me off when I struggle to remember how to perform normal throws from game entry to game entry) to appeal to the casual audience or justify a new entry to the fanbase. It may be boring, but I have never needed that. Iterative improvements, keep what works, toss out what doesn't. Add more characters. I will pay for the game. It's a bummer for me, because Sega doesn't seem to care about any of their fighting games anymore. Back in the Saturn days I had hoped Fighters Megamix would become Sega's King of Fighters, but that was never to happen. I'd love to see Bloody Roar, or an Eighting Collection from Konami instead of sleeping on the IP. A new Bloody Roar would be even better, but I don't want to get greedy. I have a lot of love for fighting games, but I am there with you in terms of not much caring for most modern games. I haven't liked the art direction in any of the modern Street Fighter games, but I tried to find love for them. At this point, I think I'm done with the franchise unless Capcom works with Arc System Works (they hold the crown until somebody else comes along willing to take risks with art direction and creating stunning visuals), as they've done with the Sengoku Basara fighter, to reboot Street Fighter Alpha. I absolutely miss the legendary sprite artwork of 90's and early 2000's Capcom and the brilliant artists that inspired so many creative persons. For me, a game not only needs to play well, it needs to be beautiful and Capcom lost that after 2001 (Capcom Vs. SNK 2 is where the Capcom I loved ends). Teaming with a company willing to put in the effort on stunning visuals, while crafting brilliant game play is something I want to see. I never wanted a "realistic" Street Fighter, and all I came away from the online play test of SF6 with was pores on noses and vascularity. No thanks man. You can keep it. Hopefully Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive get another chance at bat. Feels bad to not care for any modern fighting games as somebody that has been with the genre since 1991. Any of the games fighting games I am hyped for are far off the beaten path. Hopefully SNK invests some money into the art direction of that new Garou game. I loved Samurai Shodown 2019, but had hoped KoF15 would be more ambitious visually. Anyhow, the nurse at the retirement community says I need to get off the internet now so my blood pressure goes back down, and Matlock will be on soon. . . You kids have fun out there with your GGPO and your online lobbies.
Ha I meant no offense by the term "retirement home," as I say in the vid all of my fav games and the games I love exist in the retirement home (partly my motivation for the video). However, I did want to make this video to address the idea you say at the start of the comment, that stuff like evo can be replicated now, I don't think it can, at least not for a grass root obscure game. Evo is like the apple of fighting game tournaments ha. It was in the right place at the right time, and that context is no longer the same. So what I m getting at in the vid is that fans of smaller games can still continue to play and enjoy their games with effort, but they need to temper their expectations because no guilty gear xx will not have this massive e sports scene in the future, the economy just is not there
Good video. AC +r (or GG xx in general) was always my favourite FG. I remember when it came out on steam around 2015 or 2016. There were like 20 people playing it, all hardcore vets. And the online was super laggy. Back when Strive was announced and they patched AC+r with rollback and all kinds of other stuff it was just amazing for someone who loved the game. Suddenly the online was great, there were 500 people online and all kinds of events were held for such an old game. I got like 6k+ games out of it from 2020 to 2022. It was the most fun I had with a fighting game. Ever since Strive released the playerbase has been getting smaller and smaller, which was to be expected. I just wish they would make a new game like this again.
Yes i remember the boost when rollback netcode came out! You can actually track it on steam charts and almost always when the new game comes out the player activity of the old game drops significantly and pretty much never bounces back.
Most people are consoomers, so this really applies to all games (to a degree). They treat all games as disposable. The people that don't are a small minority of cool people, and are generally older (because the games are), and will be taking their games to the grave, though really, humanity completely destroy itself before that becomes a problem, other than maybe for golden age arcade game players.
Yeah the balance between art and consumer product in gaming has really started to shift more and more to simply consumer product.
I'd expand this to everything related to technology. It will always be replaced, and altough the old still might be used by some, it will never be what it once was.
@@binho2224 You're talking to that some. Using my 2015 computer because my 2008 computer just died a few days ago.
Honestly, I think I'm about done with fighting games. I still like them, despite my lackluster skill level, but I've been continually growing more frustrated over a couple things which I'm just kind of getting fed up with.
I guess to put it this way, essentially, I just grew up liking the wrong fighters and now I don't fit in anywhere. All the fighters I like are those niche ones that barely anyone else cares about. When they do get brought up, it's just so that they can be ridiculed and made fun of. And let's not even talk about how non-existent their communities are as a result, so good luck finding anyone to even play them with.
I submit a lot to Sajam's WIK show for instance and I've pretty much had a clip, if not multiple, showcased in every episode for the last nearly two years. Heck, just recently, the live WIK at Combo Breaker featured two clips I submitted. But lately, watching those crowd reactions, I've come to realize that they always get shown off in the second half of the show, the segment where the "wacky kusoge" are featured. Despite my small efforts, nobody cares that they look interesting or fun, they are just laughing at them cause they think they look dumb and ridiculous. It's all in vain.
And now with "Street Fighter", "Tekken", and "Mortal Kombat" all getting new entries around the same time, I've been seeing a lot of people regard this as the new upcoming Golden Age of fighting games. As if all the other fighters that have released don't remotely matter. This is just the pre-"Street Fighter IV" Dark Age sentiment all over again, repeating almost verbatim. Only now with even more infighting between controllers, inputs, single player content, DLC practices, e-sports issues, etc.
As a staunch doa defender, I absolutely feel you my dude. yes I think the fg scene as it currently stands does not understand more unique combat design and how that can make things interesting. Like tekken 4 for example. On the surface tekken 4 gets dismissed because the loss of kbd, which is a bummer in a sense. However, t4 has a really strong side step game, which is something that it more neglected in other tekken games because of how op back dash cancel is. So I think there is a really interesting discussion to be had about t4, but yes it will be instantly dismissed because it is such an outlier.
Nothing against the niche games you play, but that is the nature of popularity with anything.
Can’t speak for him, but I don’t think Sajam is putting your clips on the funky second half because he’s ridiculing it in a mean gesture, but that to the large audience, it’s so different an unique, it’s entertaining seeing something not like anything else they’re used to.
There are niche things I like myself (not fighting games necessarily), and I accept that unless something huge or lucky occurs, will stay niche.
I don’t expect much from it when it comes to the community or new content, but I still enjoy it. Yes, I wish the niche things I liked were more popular, so I could get more of it and with more people, but that’s just the reality of niche things. It both is a painful and enjoyable thing
I think this video is largely right, not just for Fighting games but for live service, massively multiplayer games in general. As hard as we try to preserve games, these sort of games truly have a limited shelf life. Which is insanely problematic going forward, considering the industry seems to be shifting to a games-as-a-service model overall.
Melee is the grand exception, and only really possible because Nintendo made Brawl with such open disdain for the competitive scene. If a new game came along that was remotely palatable for Melee fans (in the Smash Bros. series or otherwise), we may see that audience move, but unlike other fighting games, there hasn't been anything modern to cannibalize its audience. One point I'd push back on is the idea that new players aren't coming into that scene, and it doesn't have multi-generational potential; that simply isn't true. Melee has transcended its own release cycle honestly and most of the people coming in do so from tournament / stream content that they happened to stumble upon decades after the game's initial release. There are lots of players who are younger than the game itself at this point; it's genuinely not the case that it's mostly a bunch of old farts keeping the game going out of pure love (whereas that's definitely true for like, Super Turbo for example).
Services like Fightcade have made the "retirement home" for games like 3S, Super Turbo, and MvC2 a lot better, and I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for those games to have active communities for decades to come. Probably never bigger than their heyday but respectable enough to still get an accurate approximation of what "playing the game for real" ought to feel like. 99% of fighting games though? Yeah, no hope, there's not even a point in playing them (unless you're super into single player content, which the genre is notoriously bad at). It's like trying to play an old MMO. Makes no sense; you'd just be in an empty server. So this video, like I said, is largely right.
You are completely correct about "retirement home" games. I've played 3rd Strike competitively almost since its initial arcade release in my local scene and of course on Fightcade. In both instances most players haven't been around for that long and we get a bunch of new players on the regular. We actually get more players joining tournaments now than we did a few years ago. The numbers will never compare to modern games of course but I'm pretty sure 3rd Strike (and Super Turbo) will outlive them.
i think the live service thing is becoming less prevalent. That was the popular thing to do 6 or 7 yrs ago. Now a lot of games attempting to do it are failing and im pretty positive the industry is coming to the realization that people can only play 1 or 2 live service games, max. Because there just isn't enough time in the day. A lot of these live service games started development 8 yrs ago when it was the hot thing to do.
Hey my dude! You probably don't know this but I am a long time listener to the commentators curse podcast, as is I listened to every ep as they were being released during melee's hey day ha. I didn't have time to yammer about melee extensively in the vid, but I have followed the scene very closely, played in tons of local tournaments, and even hosted a tournament in my region at one point. Funny story, in one of the old episodes of CC I actually wrote in to you and tafo (you guys had an ask fm section I believe) and predicted that most of the gods would retire in a few years, because the grind and the way the scene was going was unstable. You guys thought I was being really negative and said that wouldn't happen ha. I really loved your guy's show and thought that your out of focus video on why the box should not be allowed was UBER BASED and peoople should have listened to you because all the box and software mods for the game have really hurt it (in my opinion), BUT I think you and a lot of melee's insiders are massively biased about the game. I say this because Cali and a lot of the regions where popular players come from are going to be the last places to be effected by melee's declining popularity. But as someone from a smaller region, where melee did have a little scene at one point, I watched in anger and frustration when Ult just completely wiped out melee, and I think this is happening in other small scenes. Like I say in my little essay, I do not think melee is going to melt away over night, but I think it has passed its peak and it will fade into the retirement house. I mean look at what's happening with the game objectively, Melee is becoming more and more isolated from other games and scenes. It has a lot of power and social influence, but that all is a drop in a bucket compared to Nintendo's insane marketing power.
Not really. Project M, a game made by melee players, for melee players, failed to attract the melee players, and Icons: Combat Arena, a free-to-play clone of Melee, did even worse. They're too set in their ways to ever move to any other game. They're like Disney adults.
I think fighters are much better off. You only need two people to have a good match. That’s easier to manage than getting 50.
My brother, I have been binging your content lately having found your channel randomly. I feel you offer fantastic critique, review, and insight that is far more serious and considered than the vast majority of gaming-related content. That you speak often on the genres I have a great affinity for; Shumps, Beat 'Em ups, Fighting games, etc- is icing on the cake.
The longer podcast with Boghog on video game critique was one of the best game-related discussions I have ever seen on youtube.
You earned a loyal viewer, subscriber and supporter of the channel. Thank you for the thoughtfulness you put into the content.
6:50 and beyond = Sadly this applies to first person shooters too, and has already happened to Valve's "Deathmatch Classic." Once the most convenient way to hop online to play some Quake, its now been eclipsed by Night Dive's own remaster of Quake with auto bunny-hop and quality of life improvements. The tragedy of fighting games may apply to first person shooters too. I really want to believe these games can rise up and stay popular forever, but I know what reality is like.
i feel this is true especially in arena shooters, ever since bethesda cannibalized quake live with champs, it really hasn't recovered.
Oh yes I have a funny story about this. I went over to my friend's when over watched first came out and he was super into the game (my friend is 5 years younger than me) and he we all jazzed and showing me all the cool weapons ... and I instantly went into boomer mode and was like this is from unreal tournament, that is from unreal tournament, this whole game is RIPPING OFF unreal tournament lol.
My pitiful attempt to keep fighting games alive on my very small neck of the woods is to give the homies a month's notice. Then during the weekend, we set up a kickback where everyone brings over a monitor/ crt and console/ supergun of their choice. I fire up the grill, we drink and eat like kings and we all bully each other into playing couch multi-player with each other, be it on some beat em up or action platformer, a shmup or yes, niche fighting games no one *ever* plays. The person to person camaraderie amplifies the experience far more than rollback ever could, but of course you cant take ANYTHING for granted.
Great analysis.
Fighting games changed a lot less with each iteration when the arcade scene was stronger. With the switch to home console gaming it seems developers needed to make each sequel more distinct in order for people to justify buying them.
Here in Tokyo the arcade scene is becoming more and more niche year by year, however games like Third Strike and Virtua Fighter 5 are still being played competitively.
A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y. Tournaline! Man you read my mind because pretty soon I am making an entire video about how important arcades are to quality game design, and yes there is no doubt that the loss of arcades has really hurt the design of fighting games. But ... as a shmup player, we also both know that those arcade scenes that you describe in Tokyo are not going to be around for much longer, as the decline of arcades is just a question of when, not if.
@@TheElectricUnderground Agreed - there’s no young blood coming through, the arcade gamers are just getting older and older sadly. Can’t wait for that vid, you have a talent for articulating how a lot of us feel about games today.
This is something that I never really thought about but somehow inherently knew all along. Very well put.
This is my fav comment! Yes that was 100% my goal of the video was to talk about a feeling that we all have and one that you develop as a fighting game player, but also a feeling no one discusses because it cuts against the sort of community marketing aspect of the genre, where every community needs to pretend like the game will be played forever ha.
Fighting games are so weird for me. I’m somewhat casual in them. I can do some combos, I have an okay idea in neutral and stuff. But I don’t like going out of my way to play someone else. Sure I’ll play with people, but I’m not going out of my way to do specifically that. So naturally I try online, but I can feel the lag, and it’s somewhat inconsistent and those seconds in loading screens add up and I end up just fighting CPU’s all day. That’s where I have the fun but idk it doesn’t hit the same compared to if I play someone in person but again I don’t feel like getting up to do specifically that with randos
Yeah in person competition really takes it to the next level :-)
I love watching your videos. They feel mega comfy.
I am really happy to hear that!! I m glad you are connecting with h the vibe :-)
For the first time in a while, I agree with everything you said in a video, Mark. I always find you to be passionate and always well informed. I really like that this video is framed as a warning and offers guidance for the inevitable death baked into the format of 1v1 fighting games. ❤❤❤
Mission accomplished! Ha! I'm glad you connected with the video :-) Yes, ironically the false positivity that often surrounds fighting game communities (like where the members of the community are convinced that the game will go on forever) actually causes a lot of people to miss out on the opportunity to play the game while it is still active and appreciating the game during its time.
Fighting games have a lot in common with sports games. No matter how good and how complete a game is, it will ALWAYS be replaced by the newest iteration (unless the newest installment is completely unplayable). There's a reason most old fighting games and most old sports games often become dirt cheap over time.
it depends on the series. if it's a game that largely adds to legacy, like tekken - then yeah, guys aren't going to stick around with tag 2 or T6. but if there are massive system changes, then generally, you'll have stragglers or even new players who'll prefer an older game regardless of how good the new one might be (i.e, guilty gear strive vs xrd/+R; 3rd Strike vs Alpha 2 vs Super Turbo vs SFV )
I’m going to disagree with the OP here. Old fighters don’t get replaced as much as people generally want to experience a new game to see what it offers. There will be those who will always prefer the older titles such as SSF2T, KOF 98/02, Marvel vs Capcom 2 etc and stick with these entries on the whole.
Fighting games and sports games are different in that sports titles are often updated yearly, FIFA 95,96,97,98,99 etc therefore the market is flooded with these games and the newer versions are often better and people don’t necessarily stick with FIFA 95. As such, sports games will be dirt cheap.
@@gipgap4 I think the most relevant difference is that people that get into the latest version of a fighting game as they get better at it, and start developing their own preferences, will branch out to older or more niche titles. The retirement home comparison isn't entirely correct. It's more like a side dish, or an artisan brand. Third Strike and others like it probably won't die with age, because people who get tired of the latest numbered SF will get into them and have a smoother transition than someone who is new and only wants to play Third Strike. With fighting games you have very good reasons to play older titles, because their design is both distinct and the changes in the new title aren't necessarily a direct improvement, but more so to add novelty. Those games are neither alive, nor dead. Stuck in gaming purgatory.
Excellent point bunny!! Yes I was actually going to include the pricing models of fighting games dropping as an example of them literally losing monetary value as well as social value, but then I started working on this pricing chart to try and prove this trend and was like, ok I'm too tired to cross research all these old game pricing trends ha. But yes I noticed this trend myself.
@@gipgap4 I'm not saying there aren't a group of people that will prefer the older titles. It's just that the majority of players (who are casuals) will gravitate to the newest titles. There's only a small minority of people who stick to the older games.
The number of people still playing KOF 98/02 is minuscule compared to the amount of people currently playing KOF 15.
Love your content and perception as always, keep on doing what's important!
Great video I have been feeling alot of what you described for years lol thats why I am playing more shmups and other arcade games.
yeah I think a lot of fighting game players go through this period after the initial game they learned is replaced, and often by less of a fun game.
This is so interesting
I've always played fighting games single player so I don't really notice when they fall of
I could always pick up any game from any time and have just as much fun
I don't know much about FGs, but this trend you're describing is captured very well by their price tags.
Older games like the older GG and SF games are going for a few bucks (though you may have to wait for a sale for those prices), while the latest games are crazy expensive (even on sale). So the publishers themselves are also saying that the value of a FG falls off a cliff once a new game comes out. They have to be priced like shovelware to be worth playing, is what the publishers are conveying. Obviously, these FGs aren't shovelware. The quality of the game has never changed and the code is still the same, but because there isn't a critical mass of players, there's also not much reason for a prospective buyer to play it either.
The only thing the publisher can promise for the older games is the singleplayer content, so they can only charge for that. And I guess the singleplayer content isn't valued much in the FGC? Or perhaps there's just not much to do in the singleplayer mode to begin with.
In any case, like you said, multiplayer games can only be enjoyed in the present. The social aspect prevents these games from gaining permanence. Maybe they can stick around for a long time, but they won't last forever. (That's why singleplayer games are better /s)
VF4 Evo had a near-perfect single player mode so there's definitely at least one good way to incorporate it. We'll see about SF6.
Fantastic point lunaria (as usual). Yes as I was recording the vid I was thinking about including this point about fighting game pricing, but then I started putting together little lists to do comparative analysis of old game prices and after about 10 minutes of doing this I thought, ok i'm too tired to put this pricing point in there and prove it ha. But yes I think that trend is absolutely real, it'll just be a pain in the butt to do all the price analysis.
I don’t really think that’s how it seems. Any game (unless Nintendo) goes down on value over time (unless retro or rare).
You have to remember about inflation when it comes to prices as well. £55 for SF6, guess whagX SF2 and it’s iterations costed nearly that much when their price is inflated.
The reason for prices decreasing isn’t because the name becomes any less fun, but rather to incentivise people to even buy them, while still having room to buy the new titles. Despite strive being very different, I first bought +R to see if I would enjoy the concept of guilty gear and did so. The multiplayer was hard because it’s mostly experienced players and I decided to buy strive early on to play with new players as well.
@@pian-0g445 Yes, you're conveying the same idea in different words.
Why do the publishers need to use a bigger incentive to get people to buy older FGs? Because the inherent value has decreased with the population of the game.
While you said an older FG isn't any less fun, that's not really true. As you observed, only the enthusiasts stick around for old FGs, and no one wants to play just to lose all the time. The fun value is tied to the population of the game. Otherwise, why would you bother buying Strive if you're already having so much fun with +R?
Remember, if the publishers - the capitalists that want to profit maximise at all costs - are throwing up their hands in regards to older FGs, it really says something about how well FGs preserve their value on their own, without the player population.
Also, inflation isn't all that relevant here. The price discount after a game has been succeeded is too steep for inflation to be a significant factor.
I could be wrong, but I’ve seen a couple big tournaments bring back retro games for side tournaments during their events. That’s kind of a cool idea.
Excellent video though
I’m somewhat surprised how much fighting games really just forgo any kind of single player content. Like real true single player content that so stands on its own it’s seen as its own thing. Street Fighter 6 seems to be trying that. Guardian Heroes I think is an interesting example of that. It’s single player is so strong people don’t even really think of it as a fighting game. But it is a fighting game with Fatal Fury’s Lane System, and its got a normal VS mode to play in. Most fighting games are still built like they’re arcade games where you pay a 25¢ to play.
Also a little surprised none of the fighting game developers have really gone all in on free-to-play, especially since their DLC models seem built for the F2P model. F2P for fighting games especially makes sense if you’re building the whole thing around multiplayer, because at least on consoles, (where most people are playing) that means anyone with the Internet can play online; where if you’re a retail game only the people paying for Xbox Gold and whatever the PlayStation version is called will be able to play online, which means your pool of players is going to be smaller, which means less people hanging around to buy that DLC you’re putting out.
yes i'm starting to realize more and more how important single player content is. Funny enough, devs before the online netplay era also seemed to understand this, because all the games that came out in the 2000s, tend to have much better single player content included and they do a much better job on the AI. DOA 4 for example, the ai on that game is hella good, so that you can actually continue to play and learn the game just doing AI matches. Whereas the ai in sf4 and t7 is laughably bad.
Oh and I got the shirt a few weeks ago. Love it!
I kind of came to the realization with SF5 that the direction of the series was not really aligning with my interests and decided to just focus on 3rd Strike.
I’m going to Summer Jam to play 3rd Strike in September. Definitely looking forward to it.
Hell yes!!! I'm glad the shirt arrived! So I am in the same boat with the street fighter series as well. The only games in the series that interest me anymore are super turbo and 3s. Alpha is crazy, but is a bit too busted I think lol. Summer jam sounds like a lot of fun! I'm thinking of perhaps going to evo this year ... maybe.
@@TheElectricUnderground that would be sick!
It's impossible not to agree with you that fighting games have "an expiration date" but I don't think it's as tragic as you're making it. Yes, a particular game will be dead sooner or later but you need to remember that each individual title is just a piece of the whole genre and there'll always be a current 3D/2D/tag/airdasher/whatever game to play. I believe the styles of each (or at least most) fighting games' subgenres are preserved across the years so there'll always be a fighting game catering to your particular tastes.
Maybe it just sounds tragic. When you see so many titles come and go and you're dragged along to the next version its easier to be nostalgic for what was lost.
Nice point on each title being part of a greater whole though dude. Legacy skill generally carries over quite well for most fighting games, especially on subsequent titles in my opinion
In regards to this theory, I do think Pokemon may be falling into this problem, especially due to the most recent games being *very* PvP focused with little to no things to do in the games beyond train mons for PvP. Even with the massive open world we have in the latest game, it just dwindles down to a small rectangle with 2 to 4 mons staring at each other.
And once the next game comes, most strategies, gimmicks, and even Pokemon are kind of gone with the wind.
I love Pokemon, but I wish there was more to it... and there used to be...
oh yes Mark, a lot of what I describe in the video will translate over to any direct player vs player competitive games. Any game or competition that requires concurrent players is going to struggle with the problems I describe in the vid.
I think VF5 and DOA5 are one if not the best fighting games ever made. After you experienced the endless depth and variety of those games, it's hard to go back to something else. So this video hurts deep, I can't agree with you more. I think the next best thing would be a hack and slash games with sophisticated combat, like Nioh or Ninja Gaiden. Too bad everyone wants to play Dark Souls clones with two attacks and a roll.
Absolutely cancer4cure, one reason why I love ng2 so much is that it has the triangle system just like doa :-)
They should just be able to port it to modern systems with online play and maybe even rank along with other final fighting game iterations. Capcom kind of did it with DarkStalkers, but no online play that I know of, not that many people would play it to begin with so why would they bother? Which is also why my idea wouldn't be economically possible sadly.
I prefer anime fighters over 3d so can’t relate lol. VF5 is awesome tho
Wow, well said, good points. Btw I just bought Street Fighter 30th anniversary collection and can't find a casual match in Super Turbo. Virtua Fighter 5 is playable in Yakuza like a Dragon and I like playing the arcade mode there, but I was worried if I buy it I won't be able to find matches.
Fighting games are cool but I’ll never get into them cus everyone has like 20 years experience on me.
Maybe
But on the flipside if you tried to get better you might eventually reach a point where you are able to put up a fight
As long as there is a game that you can enjoy even when losing you will eventually get good enough to win games
But if you dont enjoy that journey to get better then thets understandable
Gotta start somewhere. Depends on what game to. Games today are usually way easier to learn which is honestly a bad thing. It makes them get boring fast. They appeal to much to a casual audience. The problem with older fighting games is even if it has online it’s probably dead and u need to get into a group with people who like u said are experienced but that’s the best way to learn honestly. Just watching stuff on the game can help as well. I copy a lot of stuff for fighting games. And everyone does as well.
A lot of truth but also a lot of lies, especially for the social. I played fighting games all my life and I found out that the FGC exists just like in the year 2016. Not everything has to be competitions full of people, they are games, you play them how you want. And giving the example of speedruns doesn't help either, these people generally skip game content, I don't think it's "full potential" not to experience the created content or that an area that was intended to spend hours or minutes is completed in seconds. But hey if they're happy playing the game the wrong way, keep doing it.
I think "lies" is a very strong statement ha. We can have a difference of opinion on what the nature of a fighting game is, but that doesn't make it a lie ha
Reminds me of something they did in I think Pokemon Black and white 2. They got top competitive players at the time essentially be the extra/post game final bosses of the game. Idk if they altered the enemy AI or if it's just the standard with better team compositions.
The quest mode does seem like a cool Idea fighting RPG where you can tie to a story arc to RP some sort of rivalry with the AI. Maybe give player a hidden survey that effects the decisions the AI makes. Could even make a documentary game with it to try have the player relive a tournament for a game in the past.
I would love to stream a quest mode run someday and act like it s a real tournament, that would be really funny
With speed runs it’s not necessarily the person with the latest number 1 speed that is the “best”. It can sometimes be because an exploit or glitch was discovered that someone 10 years ago had no idea about.
yes no doubt about it! There is a conversation to be had there (I thought so when I said it in the vid, but I have to cut digressions more and more otherwise the vids will be massive) but in terms of competitive evaluation, the player with the lowest time wins. So in that sense you are better than the older players. Yes you are probably taking all their strats and in like a deeper way, you may not be better than them at all, but in a simple competitive analysis your time is better and your time is what will be higher on the leaderboard, that's what i meant. Whereas in a fighting game, there is literally no way to know if you winning your local 3s tournament in 2023 can even hope to compete with daigo winning 3s decades earlier. You can never fight 2000s era daigo.
I'm not a fighting game player but man. I had this happen with my favorite MOBA, Heroes of the Storm. The game slowly became less and less popular and all of a sudden Blizzard canned it.
It's such a curious story, because this game was perceived to be like a 'baby' League of legends. Easier to play, less complex and so on. But the reality is that it was so casual unfriendly precisely BECAUSE of the game design differences that people slowly just stopped playing. I'd love to talk about it more if you'd like.
Oh yes I think this would apply to other competitive gaming genres as well, and that is ironic and interesting that the game that was meant for casuals ended up being so competitive and unforgiving ha. Another funny example of this is the sailor moon fighting game on snes, where there are all these crazy combos and unbalanced strats even though the game is meant to be an entry level fighting game.
@@TheElectricUnderground MOBAs are team games usually. But a lot of the 'addictive loop'(the reason why people play them a lot) comes from the fact you can make a big impact if you try really hard and 'carry' your teammates.
In most of these games you have your individual character level and you earn currency by doing things in the game that you can spend to obtain items and get strong right?
In Heroes of the storm you have a singular level PER TEAM, so all XP gains are incredibly important to level up. The entire team suffers when someone slacks. HOTS is generally designed to be as team oriented as possible which makes carrying your teammates very hard for the casual player.
So even though HOTS is a much better team-game the fact it's so team oriented as opposed to individual player oriented is exactly why it wasn't as successful. Most people playing MOBAs don't actually want to cooperate funny enough.
I didn’t know you were into fighting games lol, great video
Oh yes absolutely! I talked about them a lot at the start of the channel ha
Really great analysis and well structured ass well!
Thank you chemist!!! I tried to keep it extensive, but not over done ha.
very intersting point of view...
this topic made me think about senko no ronde game witch is a hybride fighting/shmup game...wondering if you tried it
you ever played killer instinct 2013? it has something called shadow labs it has a very sophisticated AI that analyzes all of your gameplay style
also, do you just play accent core? i didn't have much issues hopping on +R and finding matches every now and again
I never played it, but I remember hearing about it and thinking the idea is really cool :-)
DoA3 ost the whole way through. What a lad.
Great analysis! Thank you very much!
Thank you for tuning in gabriel!!! and thank you for the nice comment :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground it is my pleasure. You have guru my way into shmups.
Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown deserves to be played.
It truly does, the game does look good too
Went to Cooperation Cup vol 18 this year and would say the game is here to stay. If the game doesn't need a high prize pool for a game to be popular on an international level and still have an active player base, it's a "good game."
Absolutely Ryan and cooperation cup is a really cool event! It's like the one old school tournament event that I can think of that still gets some attention. The thing about coop cup though, is that it's extremely dependent on the current (and incredibly skilled) japanese players. These are the guys that hold the event up and that's really impressive, but what happens to third strike and coop cup when these guys stop playing? It would be cool to think that there will be a new generation of thriving 3rd strike players to replace them, and maybe that's possible, but at this point I don't think so. I think once these Japanese players retire and stop playing 3s, there won't be anyone equivalent to replace them.
I can easily relate to this with SoulCalibur IV, my last competitive experience was winning an online tourney and that's recent history as it's a much deader game than ever regardless of how many times its promoted.
Poor soul calibur. I love soul calibur 2, and I'm not saying that as like a theory thing. A few years ago I got really into SC2 and would convince people to play online vs match with me on dolphin ha. The game is amazing, especially all the stances and movement. I remember 9 or so years ago when Aris was all jazzed about SC2 online coming out, sadly the game flopped super hard and no one played it. Sc2 can be played online really well though thanks to dolphin! But yes Soul Calibur is fated for a life as either a dead game, or a retirement home game.
This is an interesting discussion. It's an odd focus that you are focusing only on a small part of the genere and that is the "competitive side". Which I would imagine is a very small portion of players. This is competitive games in general not just fighters?the games mentioned don't need to rely on a community at all and therefore is kinda silly to compare the genre? Idk but interesting video non the less amd always look forwardto your content
I love fighting games and have always had an interest in them. However, I don't try to play competitively and haven't been hyped about a new fighting game since maybe SFIV.
Honestly, I'd rather play some older classics like Super Turbo, Alpha 2, UMK3, KOF98, Garou, CvS2, Melee, and SS V Special. However, like you said, the fighting game scene just wants to move on to the next game because of the social factor.
yes i'm in the same boat. And for me it's extra tough because almost all of my slim irl social life is connected to fighting games, so it's like a battle of the critic in me vs the social animal within me ha.
Melee is different because competitive melee is more popular now than it was at any other point
Though it's best to play the newest entries of each fighting game, I have to realize the newest game isn't always the best one.
I used to play Tekken 5 (base game) regularly when TTT2 was relevent. Reason being is that my local arcades (Funworks and Boomers) had said version around then. By the time T5 cabinets were taken out of my city, I started playing a bit of TTT2, then stumbled upon Tekken 4 when I went to a movie theatre in my home city. I found the game interesting, and I played it at both the arcade and at day program until it was time for me to move on to other things in life.
This doesn't apply to just fighting games, but also other gaming genres. In the mid 2010s, most music game players I know of on Facebook and TH-cam end up playing DDR 14th Mix and A, but the arcades near my home were stuck with DDR Extreme (and SuperNOVA) until they were all taken out. There was a period when no DDR games were playable in any of Modesto's arcades until Dave & Buster's opened, and finally had a version newer than SuperNOVA for the first time in forever.
yes exactly gabe! I think there is a cognitive dissonance that often happens where if you spend thousands of hours practicing the latest game in the series, because that is the competatively played on, then you naturally start to think, ok this must be the best one, that's why everyone is playing it. Then the next game comes out, and cranky old player experience activates ha.
Loved the essay you did on melee in the google doc. As a current competitive player and TO in the Australian scene I can't deny that Melee and the Aus community has gotten really lucky, and while slippi provided a resurgence during covid it seems player/viewer counts at the major tournaments overseas have been dwindling along with old top players taking the game less seriously (mang0's lack of serious performance having the biggest effect on the viewerbase especially).
I truly think 2024 will either cement melee as truly immortal or finally put it to where 3rd strike/other cult classics are while being surpassed by a newer title like Rivals 2. With such large community backing from both Melee and PM communities, this is as good an opportunity as any for the melee community to try permanently migrate to another title.
While Melee may/may-not dwindle this year, I however have no doubt in my mind that the community will continue to grow as i feel it occupies a genre rather than a game at this point, and that the new guard (i.e. Zain, Jmook, Moky, Joshman, Cody, etc) can be just as popular as the old gods given time and that this weird transition period which was 2022-2023ish is coming to a close.
Or maybe I'm entirely wrong and it'll take a completely different path who knows, but interesting to talk about! Either way I'll be most likely playing whatever is still standing with new and old faces for years to come.
You missed a HUGE point in this rant about casuals. The reason why casuals don't stick is bc the ceiling for casuals in fighting games hits very fast. Bc there's such a divide due to movement and pokes casuals get to a point where they can't even throw a punch and just get dominated every match...they then just give up on the game
Excellent video Mark, but I had a doubt: "what about slow booms?" the games that took a long time to become successful/have a player base? that the casual crowd and pro-players alike found out it existed?
That's an interesting case, you mean something like melty blood I would imagine. Those games are interesting because they are essentially starting off from being dead in the first place and slowly crawling their way into the mainstream. Really melty is one of the few examples I can think of this and what happened with type lumina is that it had a two month spike of interest, but then crashed back down again. Idk though, it will be interesting to follow and see how this goes. I would imagine that it would follow the same model, but just take a lot longer to go through the phases.
It doesn't help that there are so many damn fighting games coming out all the time. I don't know how a genre that is practically the distilled essence of "Here today, gone tomorrow" gets so many new games. It's been a saturated scene for years, and while I won't necessarily COMPLAIN about more games, it's always been weird to be that such a niche, dedicated genre manages to sustain itself commercially outside of the big boys.
these games really cant last as long as say, a free to play title with constant micro transactions. it needs injections of players buying the game on a cycle. which is a good thing because you'll get a stinker like SFV. i don't think fighting games are honestly released that rapidly though, T7 and SFV have been around since at least 2016. i think T7 can have a few good years in it, but SFV is immensely fatiguing from a pure design standpoint
Its always been that way, right? SF3 wasn't all that popular when it came out because it came out when quality fighting games were a dime a dozen.
16:28 A new local started in my area and I experienced this. They only have Strive and SF6. I don't own strive and no one actively plays accent core +R. I've got a few people to play +r on only one occasion so far.
Surprisingly though someone else brought 3rd strike once, so I got to play locally for the first time in a year.
Melee is the perfect example of what you were talking about. Everyone stayed with Melee, and then a new scene developed around Brawl, creating 2 scenes that criticized eachother
Yes and I think we focus so much on the melee scene (because it is so influential and cool) that we forget that all the other smash scenes flopped over and died. What about smash 64? That game is dead. Smash 4 ... dead. Even Project M, also a goner. It really was only melee that bucked the trend and I think it's impressive but I also do not believe it will go on forever.
@@TheElectricUnderground sadly I agree, but what an era!
@@TheElectricUndergroundTo be fair Project M was a C&D story wasn't it?
I actually played a couple hours if VF5: Ultimate Showdown and found a few matches at the very least. Great game, though I’m much more versed in Tekken I can’t deny. They actually just had COOP CUP for 3rd Strike, and VF Beat Tribe in Japan highlighting those two great games.
I just picked up Mai in DOA6. Didn’t realize they had that crossover.
I didn't know you were playing doa 6 dingo! We should play sometime because my Kasumi in doa 6 is lonely ha.
This is basically the tragedy of competitive games. Even chess has changed throughout the years. The rules have changed, the prices have altered ways they move and opening theory now comprises encyclopaedic knowledge of various routes and traps with some games lasting 40 or 50 moves and still being in opening theory. The best thing to do is realize what you have while you have it, and keep hold of those memories because in life that’s all you have. As we get older we will no longer be able to play these games competitively. Our reactions will dwindle, our motor processing will stop being fine tuned, we will develop arthritis… etc. I’ve always been crap at fighting games and wanted to know how the greats were so good, I really wanted to challenge myself and get to my greatest ability… well in 2013 I did that with skullgirls. It was the first and only fighting game that TOTALLY clicked for me. There wasn’t a strategy or move that I wasn’t familiar with, there weren’t people doing things that caught me off guard. I knew the game inside and out… so instead of just chilling with that knowledge… I put my money where my mouth was and I bought a ticket to evo from australia. I only had 2 other players that I could play against in australia. But that was all we needed. I wasn’t the best out of the 3 of us.. but I was good enough to represent… and I made it to top 32. For me that represents the highest placing I’ve ever had at evo and I was happy with it. When I lost I knew it was to a better player and I knew I left nothing on the table. That’s a great feeling to have and I take it with me into the twilight of my fighting game career now that I’m almost 46 years old.
Another great vid, cheers 👍
Where did you get these awesome pictures behind you ?
Thanks for putting this into a video! I've been saying this for years!
I feel like Fighting games are so disposable. They have a hype period of a few months, then most people drop it, then it eventually dies off and a new one drops. And fighting game fans are like adhd kids when the next big shiny thing comes out they drop everything else to play it, even if its a noticeably worse game than its predecessor.
This is a huge reason why I dropped fighting games in favour of shmups. My favourite fighters got mostly dropped and when SFV dropped I basically said "nah, I'm good. I'm not playing that." and that was that.
Shmups can be played anywhere, any time! Don't need to match with others.
Yes the beautiful thing about shmups is that the full potential of the games are always there, even if no on else but you plays them
I hate video essays or even monologue videos about a particular subject but this video is fucking great, man. Well-said!
I feel like Mark is just trying to get me to play VF5 🤣
Pretty valid points and lot to think about in terms of the nature of the genre. I have such a hard time trying to get anyone to play 3rd Strike with me. Funnily enough, it came out in my birth year and I didn’t start playing till my late teens so didn’t grow up with. Literally heard through the cultural zeitgeist it was the sickest thing around
LOL! yes if there is one not so subliminal message in my vid, VF 5 being awesome and needing to be played more would be one of them XD Yeah it is funny how gamers of our generation are now connecting with games from the 2000s more and more, just generally. One reason for that, and maybe this is a hot take, is simply because this era of gaming was extremely good and better than our current era of games. The 2000s was insane and probably the peak of gaming for many years to come.
FGs are my favorite genre and I would consider myself more a "fighting game player" than a "video game player" or something like that. But it's like you said, I just can't feel the same excitement like I did in the first 5 or 6 years when I discovered the genre. My first game I've played competetively was USFIV and I would say that BBCF is still my favorite video game of all time. But at some point those games became irrelevant and I moved over to the new Street Fighter V, Soul Calibur, BBCTB and GGStrive and now I've seen so many fighting games rise and fall, that I just can't commit myself to the upcoming games to the same degree like USFIV and BBCF. I guess I will play SF6 for I while, but when I've learned one thing from Nier Automata, then it's that everyting that lives is designed to end, and that we are trapped in a never ending spiral of new fighting games releases and the day they become irrelevant.
Exactly Dr. Pepper. What I am trying to communicate in the vid is that this constant release death spiral for the genre is basically impossible to avoid. It's a total catch 22 that happens I think no matter what players or communities, or even devs, do. So our best way forward is to just enter the death spiral and appreciate the games as much as we can while we have them ha.
Knowing how much of a CAVE fan you are I am still surprised you haven't talked about Fever SoS. Maybe you could give it a try next time :)
I have talked about dangun feveron my brother, it's just from an earlier period on the channel that no one watched ha. Here's the vid :-) th-cam.com/video/bRc1rLpFP80/w-d-xo.html
@@TheElectricUnderground thanks brother keep up the great work 👍
I think the biggest tragedy nowadays is the accessibility obsession and the false expectations it's giving casuals and beginners.
There's a portion of ppl who genuinely think they're an undiscovered fighting game genius if there weren't motion inputs or w.e "gatekeepy" things they feel are holding them back. Fighting game devs nowadays have to practically suck off the casual audience with their accessibility options such as easy inputs or autocombos. These give casuals a false sense of security because they think they'll finally be able to compete with better players annnnnnnnnd it doesn't fucking work. A week or 2 later these scrubs are crying on reddit or Twitter about fighting games being too hard and gatekeepy. Then they stop playing yet another fighting game. Then we're back at square one.
We need more single player content. Most ppl don't bother going online. And a good portion of ppl just don't have the patience to grind for ranks or compete at a local level.
Oh don't you worry mike, pretty soon I am going to be doing a video about simplified inputs don't you worry. One of my biggest issues with modern fighting games and I think I have some legit arguments about it that I don't want to spoil.
@The Electric Underground These simple inputs or autocombos don't do anything to teach the beginners how to actually play.
You brought up VF4 EVOs quest mode. We need that mode to be an industry standard! A practical single-player mode that can give quality training to beginners and casuals. 80-90% of the player base won't ever go online. 80-90% of that remaining player base won't ever go past the scrub ranks aka the forever green ranks and bronze players in T7 n SFV. The casual audience needs a casual experimence to go back to whenever they want to play without worrying about getting their ass beat online.
Preach! ✊
A fighting game without motion inputs would probably be more successful tho
And would be less likely to give you rsi
and this is precisely why your games are dying lol. scream at people to get good some more, i'm sure that will really encourage growth!
This seems more like you're just being wistful about the transient nature of people and time. That's true of the players of ANY video game, not just fighting games. But fighting games aren't going anywhere, they're sticking around, and honestly, enjoying them while they're around as a public spectacle is fun, but it doesn't really matter. The stuff that keeps these games alive is the memories of the fun times we share with them, the fandom surrounding their characters, their worlds, their music. As time passes, they can and will be enjoyed and remembered as any other work of art. And that's fine. It's not really healthy in the long run to be melancholy about the impermanence of things. That's not something we can control. Just be grateful to have it in your time and let time decide if it was ultimately cool or not.
That is such an interesting point.
Where as high score positions can be competed with even ten years apart, a fighting game is a moment in history that no revival can revisit or replicate. I will never be able to compete against tekken 3 era Ryan Hart for example, its a you just had to be there type of thing. Kinda romantic in a sense.
It really is! Some stuff like that truly does get lost in the sands of time, and I think if we are more aware of that, then I think people will be more motivated to participate when it's actually happening, rather than thinking "oh this isn't going anywhere" ha.
I agree with most of your takes, however -
1. It's not the nature of fighting games - it's the nature of sequels to divide player bases. My counter examples are League of Legends and Fortnight, two titans that doesn't have single player, and have huge longevity, because they didn't get any sequels.
2. Some fighting games don't fold into the mold you presented. Skullgirls, for example. They made a perfect game, they extended it and then it lived on.
TL;DR: The Tragedy Of Fighting Games isn't inherit to fighting games.
Did you say the "EDIBLE conplex"? 🤔
Oediple *
Nice analysis man.
It'd be cool if in the future fighting game devs did some kind of "legacy remake" but not as a separate game but as an additional mode u could pay for like dlc. I know sf6 has arcade games as minigames in the battlehub/world tour. I think the concept can be expanded to allow both classic games and the new games to coexist in the same "digital ecosystem" while preserving both competitive scenes. Like imagine playing ranked 3rd strike while in sf6 and the game rewards u with in game currency for other sf6 content and so on
I dont know if that made sense or if its even possible but I really like this idea
U could even go further and have games like tekken 3 using tekken 8 graphics but still retaining the systems from 3. However I do realise just how much additional work would be needed to implement it
I’ve given some thought to your hypothesis and think I have found a solution. ghost characters . An ai learning system
Could analyse your entire career in a fighting game analysing thousands of matches and predict what move you would counter with in any given Situation . someone would eventually beat it but an interesting concept .
Yeah, I heard you're not only a great shmup player but was also a huge fighting player.
But hey, fighting games are always trying to be more accessible, and being more easy executables, that's the new popular trending now: "if is hard I will avoid since I don't have much free time"
But the old school players will always have their deep experience of readings to kick ass.
Keep being awesome! 👍
Oh yes I'm glad you brought up simplied inputs Gustavo! I am going to make a video about why they are such a big problem soon.
Well, i highly suggest trying the SF6 demo versus a lvl8 cpu Luke with a commentator on. I believe Capcom already took the first steps towards the AI stuff you talked about.
That is super interesting! I ll def take a look at it in my review
@@TheElectricUnderground Well, you're in for a big surprise. Even the big names like Daigo have been loosing to the base lvl8 cpu. And it gets even more ridiculous when you give the cpu other advantages like health regen, drive bar regen, and increased damage.
I don't really have tons of experience with the fighting games. I played MK1 & 2. Street fighter 2 turbo. Then smash bros 1 & smash 4 (doing tournaments). This is still an interesting video though!
The one and only thing I HATE the most to do in fighting games whenever I’m playing the PS1, Sega Dreamcast, PS2, PSP, Xbox 360 and Nintendo Switch (the only video game consoles that I have and played growing up from my childhood to recently in my adulthood) is doing combos because they’re so freaking hard and difficult to get right and I’m not really into that a lot and I don’t think I will forever because I’m a CASUAL fighting game fan, always have always will. I just want to play fighting games so I can mess around and have fun. I just want to play fighting games that has lots of content for me to do, lots of replay value, different games modes, different controller types, appeals to CASUALS and DIEHARDS and most importantly, LOTS OF FUN! And I hoping that this next console generation will have companies learn from their mistakes and make fighting games better than ever before and fun for everyone else including me. Awesome job on the video, dude!👍🏾❤️🥊🎮
Great video!!!
Thank you aspek!!
The problem with fighting games is that the players are loyal to the genre, not the games.
A lot of people will point to the games being complex and hard to learn but so was Starcraft 2 and that scene lasted a good 4, 5 years before becoming a niche again. No, the way I see it, fighting games have an "oversaturation" problem. If you take every competitive genre in the market you'll find that most genres have just 2 or 3 games at the top and these games last, sometimes, for more than a decade. People are loyal to Counter Strike, to League of Legends or Dota, they aren't loyal to fps or moba as genres.
When it comes to fighting games, the community always migrates to the next big thing. Sure, you have the Big 3, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat and Tekken and people will always end up going back to them, but every time a Soul Calibur or Guilty Gear comes out of nowhere, it takes players from these other games and some times, it steals them for good.
This will 100% happen with Street Fighter 6. The weeks following the release of MK1 we'll see a considerable drop in player base for SF6. Same thing with Tekken 8.
Most sf fans hate Mk tho lol not the same audience
There's definitely a sadness to the populated life cycle of 5ish years of major franchise games but it's x10 decay for games like DNF Duel or Multiversus so relatively speaking it's great!! Lucky for me I love how sf6 is looking so I really hope things like world tour and modern bring in the casual audience which you point out is what directs the competitive scene. The casual audience is where a lot of competitive players will emerge from I don't think they are completely separate, and sf6 looks great for bringing players along (aside from controls, I'm thinking things like drive impact giving players a simpler execution way to call out buttons being pressed than getting straight into a pure whiff punish - the generous input buffer getting player going with some basic combos easier(don't worry there are still plenty of combos that are harder than can't use the buffer like kens corner kicks) - and things like the different recovery options being the same frame adv making it easier to start implementing some basic oki, again I don't think this takes away from more complex/difficult setups but it does allow players to get their foot in the door with some early progress. I don't see this as dumbing down, but as easing the difficulty curve and making the better players really think about when it's worth doing the harder stuff since optimising for a small extra advantage seems like it can a lot of difficulty quickly.
Oh yeah the anime game life cycle is crazy, they literally last like 6 months in mainstream eye, and then disappear back into obscurity, like under night
Good points, we mostly think about the present, but going forward, these games will be replaced by something else. Not that we can't have fun with them, but it's not like we'll have fun with them for long.
I truly understand this concept today and just letting yourself enjoy a game for what it is when it's online is dead. That's how I feel towards Nick all stars brawl 1. Still love playing that game though. I have to make my own fun though. Made me think of this video and learning to let go of that.
Biggest issue i have with fighters now is that, you either get the game when it releases, knowing that 75% if the content isnt there yet ad that your gonna have to keep paying for DLC's to get it, or you wait until its more finalized but then jumping into play it online is just a meat grinder due to the majority of players already having so much time in already.
Yep, the releases now are bare bones and you buy games on the hope of more content, which may or may not show up depending on the initial sales. There's a lot of confidence marketing going on now.
Great perspective. Its tough to keep a fighting game truly alive. Those games really thrive on that human competition. AI opponents will often actually cheat in various ways or require spamming a very specific move, set of moves from a very specific character, per each opponent to win. Not the way you'd play against a constantly adapting human. Maybe one day AI will be able to mimic that better. I dont play fighting games against humans often, but have completed MOST of the fighting games and ports of them that exist out there. Its mainly a trial and error slog of finding exploits, not so much reacting to everything.
For human competition you can either play locally against the same group of people you know (not much room to evolve), organize competitions, or find ways to play them online through emulation (older games), but all those options are severely limited. For players that really want to test the limits of human opponents it will likely be harder to find that quality of competition.
I agree with alot of what you say, and I could also add that I (in my opinion) feel like there's a tribalistic nature of fighting game sub communities. It might not seem like it but there's that feeling of shade thrown around at other games and not like there's just players who just don't personally feel they like the gameplay or something they can attach to, it really is on the line of 'judging a book by its cover' kind of ordeal.
To me, I can appreciate the small squatters of ppl who will one day show up in your sub community and take interest in the game/game's you like, so I feel like there's also a responsibility to try and hold on to whatever player joins your community because there are many variables that can make them quit or go silent.
I also feel like the idea of games being treated as "discord games" is kind've the nature of what they have settled into now in the current age of fighting games and your talk about how the games back then will never be at their peak because players have moved on or whisked away I should say.
Not to dismiss your argument like some might do (I think some might call you old for liking old games or tell you to move on) because I would have like to also enjoyed the arcade scene back in the day, but unfortunately I would only get a teeny tiny slice of that due to my really young age.
What I am trying to say is that I personally appreciate the little small bits of players old and new showing up to take interest in the "old game" because as they say "even if you have just 1 other person to play a fg with you, it can still be considered kicking". And to the argument if the games will stay outdated because the newer one will be of more interest, I think that with a resurgence of some new minds can change around the perspective of how a game/character is changed because of an absolute baffling type of ideas/playstyle they can bring to the table. Even in your video if you think the pool of good players or "peak" experience is gone (that's just expected because arcades/offline console only is not a thing so much anymore is unfortunate), I say you can still have that because the new bloods in old games can get good enough to were that concept isn't so daunting of doom and gloom.
I get it's not happening for every game that you might have interest in, but in my mind there's still a holdout for hope and new horizon of what's unexpected to come. maybe I'm dumb enough not to see it realistically. but that's just my 2 cents
This is true but the cool thing about the FGC is that no matter what game you want to play you'll always find people that will do everything to keep their game alive.
Yes that was part of my final conclusions at the end :-) That if you accept that your game (GG xx for example) will not rise into the mainstream ever again, then you can have a lot of fun with your fellow hardcore fans, you just need to put that extra effort in, which is hard for a lot of people to do.
I get your video. But, if they are compared to Model Trains, why is there an issue with Model Trains?
I don’t think anyone really expects an individual fighting game or any game to “last forever” Pretty much everyone knows that the sequel will take over. I think we’re all just hoping for fighting games as a whole to finally grow and become as big as other esports.
Yeah I think this is correct for sure. But what i'm getting at is that in terms of game design, rather than the community of players, the actual games themselves, it is pretty tragic that even if a series cracks the formula and creates the perfect game (mechanically and so forth) that game is doomed to be replaced by an inferior game no matter what, because of the economy of how the genre functions and who determines what games are played competitively (the casual playerbase who aren't going to care that much about if the fighting formula was better in the last version).
Agreed this happened with KOF, after KOF 2000 nobody played fighting games again and that was in 2003, with fighting games being played at home it lost most of the casual fans like some of the best players quit.
yeah especially in the USA, the kof scene completely evaporated, at least for the most part. It has been south america that has been keeping the scene alive, which is super cool.
20+ year fighting game player's 2 cents:
There's a particular aspect where i strongly disagree with the "dying" narrative for older games. Most often, as long as those games can maintain any reasonable player base at all, the level of play will actually be *higher* than it was during the game's so-called "prime". We see this in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, where players like General Thrillah & especially Khaos have reshaped the meta and beaten the gods of old, and this holds true for basically any game with rollback netcode and a decent scene.
But you're right when it comes to older games not maintaining their cultural prominence & ~hype~ within the community, and i have some spicy takes on that. As someone who learned many other games on a competitive level and goes back & forth between those and fighters, i actually think the FGC's "randomness = bad" mindset is a big problem in this regard. Outside of a few cases like chess, most any other major competitive game has more luck elements than fighting games do; i would even put sports in this category simply because of judges & referees. And for me personally, the randomness is precisely what keeps these other games more interesting in the long term. i gravitate toward a lot of Euro-style board games that are heavy on strategy but still leave a lot of the game state to chance, and that means you have to be ready to adjust on the fly and know how to play a variety of strategies. It's rare for any two games in a day to feel exactly the same that way! You can also look at how poker has made a comeback by embracing streaming, even though it's still illegal to play online poker for real money in the US.
i think this matters because fighting games, even the great ones, can feel samey over time - particularly when you get a few years in and the high-level game becomes mostly solidified. Invariably the stream chat gets bored of the current game and gets excited when the next one in the series is announced...only for them to get bored of that next game in another 4-5 years and wait for another new one. Fighters aren't that well-suited to providing novelty, which is a major part of what keeps games interesting for many. Chess has this same issue, but it's unique among competitive games for how historically canonized it is; you also couldn't build a better spokesman in a lab than Magnus Carlsen!
Updates and DLC that further split people up in different ways aside... The further in time we go the more games will come out and the more divided the finite number of potential players will be. Just the nature of things/life. I just started playing The Last Blade 2 a bit. After 25 years I suspect the (online) community for that game isn't exactly big (Fightcade, which I've never tried, seems like the save) and whoever is on it now is probably FAR better than I am (having had 25 years to practice vs less than a week). Better AI is the future (maybe with the added function of being able to understand banter to simulate the human experience).
Rollback and time might solve this problem. If quality competitive play is the goal. But if you wanna be the best of the largest subset of players then there is no solution.
Me and my friends still only play SSF2T.
They didn't release Virtua Fighter 5 anywhere it's only on the PS4 thats one of the big reasons and the casual audience only plays what is new and available on their most current platform.
This is on point. Fighting games even more than other genres are so trend influenced. Virtua Fighter 5 is (in my opinion) the peak of fighting games. But like you said, it doesn't matter if is the objectively greatest game. These games rely so much on the social element, that without it, it doesn't have much of a chance surviving for long.
I know there were F2P fighting games and most of them failed. But a great F2P fighting game could be a game changer. Project L could be that and maybe Sega could give it a shot with a new Virtua Fighter.
As a casul non-fighting game player, what made me want to play them was seeing other people play them in the arcades. There aren't that many arcades anymore, and most of them that I'm close to aren't accessible with pocket change.
I was not happy at all with 5 becoming more eSports.
I have been that hipster in fighting games. Got tired of it. Getting those pity matches from people who don't really want to play the game you care about is not fun. Playing someone too far from you and lagging your brains out is not fun. Or getting bodied so hard you can't really say you're playing at all, because those 5 guys who've been playing each other for the last 10 years are so far ahead of you, and you're no more interesting to them than a training mode dummy. People want to play others close to their level who care about the game as much as they do. Not dabble in it. Roaming discords to beg for games is not fun for me.
It's a problem that I've developed very specific likes and dislikes for what a fighting game should have. I can't make myself like what is popular and available today, and I know what I want will not be made anymore. Maybe by some incredible stroke of luck I end up liking SF 7, or the new Garou does well, or even a new Samurai Showdown, but I'm not waiting, nor hoping.
the best fighters will always be timeless for me but i understand what ur saying here...
Yes absolutely! That's what makes their loss in relevance sting so much I think
Well no one likes stagnation. That's literally the best thing about fighting games. I love that there's so many new fighting games and versions of the games prior. Literally people have been begging RIOT to make a new League of Legends 2 because the want an improved version of the game. We want new characters, we want new modes, we want new mechanics, we want old mechanics to go away too, etc. People who stick with older titles have the whole nostalgia syndrome or simply just don't want to learn anything new. If this was a problem then there wouldn't be so many people playing the newer titles. People want to try new and better things. I mean you see it everyday when players will play an older game but immediately go back to the newer games simply because they are better. Just be thankful these games aren't pay to win (most of the time) and have a battle pass lolol.
Heard good things about SF6 from lots of different people. Seems the common “complaint” is it seems almost too complex, with too many possible options and no cheese anti airs or op jabs.. the reverse of SF5 basically. I’m still going to be skeptical and wait until the dust settles after launch, and I’m not bothering with any hype, reaction or trailers. I’ll probably hang around Reddit and forums to see what the opinions are after launch.
I m actually going to review sf6 when it comes out, which will be interesting...
Even if you are a big fan of DOA6 it's pretty much the same situation with just matching the same guy in Russia 3 times in a row.
I think a big issue with fighters is that even if you have people who prefer older versions they might not agree on which one. Someone might prefer Super Turbo, someone else might like 3rd Strike, and another might prefer SF4. Everyone can kind of agree on playing the latest version of the game.
Yep that is a huge issue, the fanbase splinters and proliferates. This is why melee worked for as long as it did, because it had no alternative at all. Whereas with Street fighter, yeah super turbo, 3s, and alpha are all cool games that are worth playing ... so which one do we all play? because the more you split up the fanbase, the less pull any one game will have.