SpaceX's BIGGEST Challenge: FULL Breakdown of Starship's Heat Shield!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 เม.ย. 2024
- Visit ground.news/WAI for space news and subscribe now for 40% off the same Vantage plan I use.
Alternative ways to protect the SpaceX Starship! Are heat tiles the way to go?
Starfactory receives the long-awaited windows! The construction of Massey’s static fire stand continues! Voyager rescued! And Rocket Lab launches a solar sail mission!
Ron Hard Rock on TH-cam: / @ronhardrock468
#SpaceX #starship #elonmusk #starbase
▶️Patreon: www.wai.to/patreon
▶️WAI Hub: www.whataboutit.space
▶️Redline Helicopters: wai.to/redlineheli
▶️Merch Store US: whataboutit.myspreadshop.com/
▶️Merch Store EU: whataboutit.myspreadshop.de/
▶️WAI Orbit: In collaboration with our friends at SkyFi: / skyfiapp
▶️X (Twitter): www.x.com/FelixSchlang
▶️Instagram: / felixschlang
▶️Facebook: / waispace
▶️WAI Spotify Playlist: spoti.fi/39tmULH
Editing: John Young, Alex Potvin, Stefanie Schlang
Photography: John Cargile, John Winkopp & Stefanie Schlang
3D Animation: Voop3D
Script & Research: Eryk Gawron, Oskar Wrobel, Felix Schlang
LIVE Production: Astro Roadie
Host: Felix Schlang
Production: Stefanie & Felix Schlang
Graphics & Media Processing: Jonathan Heuer, Felix Schlang
Credit:
⭐SpaceX
⭐NASA
⭐Rykllan on X: / _rykllan
⭐SpaceX 3D Creation Eccentric on X: / bl3d_eccentric
⭐SpaceX 3D Creation Eccentric on TH-cam: / spacex3dcreationeccentric
⭐TijnM on X: / m_tijn
⭐TijnM on TH-cam: / @tijn_m
⭐Jessica Kirsh on TH-cam: / @jessicakirsh
⭐Jessica Kirsh on X: / jessica_kirsh
⭐Ryan Hansen Space on TH-cam: / ryanhansenspace
⭐Ryan Hansen Space on X: / ryanhansenspace
⭐Ryan Hansen Space on Patreon: / ryanhansenspace
⭐Starship 3D on X: / dstarship3
⭐TDSN on X: / tdsn19
⭐ChromeKiwi on X: / ashleykillip
⭐Alex Delderfield on X: / alex_adedge
⭐LabPadre on X: / labpadre
⭐LabPadre on TH-cam: / labpadre
⭐VirtualSpace_3D on X: @Lolomatico3d
⭐VirtualSpace_3D on Patreon: / vs_3d
⭐Nick on X: / chameleoncir
⭐Jerry Pike on X: / jerrypikephoto
⭐Tony Bela on X: / infographictony
⭐Ryan Hansen Space on TH-cam: / ryanhansenspace
⭐Ryan Hansen Space on X: / ryanhansenspace
⭐Virtual Space_3D on X: / lolomatico3d
⭐The Ring Watchers on X: @RingWatchers
⭐Lunar Caveman on X: / lunarcaveman
⭐The Space Engineer on TH-cam: / thespaceengineer
⭐Starship Gazer on TH-cam: / starshipgazer
⭐Starship Gazer on Patreon: / starshipgazer
⭐Starship Gazer on X: / starshipgazer
⭐Greg Scott on X: / gregscott_photo
⭐www.nasaspaceflight.com
⭐Nick Henning on X: / nickhenning3d
⭐ErcX on Twitter: / ercxspace
⭐Alex Svan on X: / alexsvanart
⭐Caspar Stanley on X: / caspar_stanley
⭐Neopork on X: / neopork85
⭐Corey on X: / c_bass3d
📄Links for this Episode:
www.spacex.com
www.spacex.com/starship - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Visit ground.news/WAI for space news and subscribe now for 40% off the same Vantage plan I use.
For now with our limited technology i think the best way to go is to keep things very similar, if you fit a captive nut say 1 per 1m square instead of the studs in that area, you could make a hexagon shaped headed pin which would screw into the captive nut with a spring to take up vibration in the area, it would be a specialist hexagon tile that would help secure all the tiles around it and be allowed to flex and vibrate to alleviate pinging off on start up etc .not much more mass would be needed as pins are already welded on, a captive nut every now and again is minimal extra mass. gluing the awkward tiles is really the only way.
@@craigterry6072 Wrong. Only a very small percentage fall off. Just accept that some will fail. Get robots to fix replacements in space. While the crew are sleeping, robots are busy plugging the gaps. Maybe the spacecraft goes to a docking station dedicated to this task. Robots and replacement tiles are ready and waiting. Send a bulk load of tiles up in advance. But how easy would it be to fit replacement tiles in space? Maybe don't fit replacement tiles. Have the robots fill the gaps with heat-resistant compound that can be removed/drilled out when back on earth. Like a robotic dentist in space. A bunch of fillings required after each launch.
Felix, what about one round bowl type heat tile for the Ray tip of the nosecone instead of making it all different tiles, why not one shape of the nose baked in the bakery to fit on the nose as one piece?
heey man, you could make an sponsor about hair growth, you'll love it, and it's yet soon to fix it
@@AntonyRG1 fantasy, mine is practical.
Something about Felix first holding up that tile was awesome. It's like it pulled the actual size of the vehicle down into his hand and in front of my face.
He must have a lot of friends to have all those tiles. Ellie had borrowed on too at first.
My pleasure! It's an epic feeling to have some history in the studio!
Some heat shield related ideas that may have already been commented:
> Perhaps wrapping the Starship heat tile areas with a heavy-duty type space-grade automotive wrap film to hold the tiles in place until re-entry burns it off, after which the plasma compression layer could aid in holding tiles in place. Could also double as advertisement logos. Would reduce reuse speed but perhaps increase recovery odds.
> The commonly suggested placement of the flaps leeward of the heat shield would eliminate many of the custom shaped tiles in the main heat shield zone, and depending on the flap deployment angle, enable the Starship's fore and aft re-entry shape to taper like a capsule for increased aerodynamic stability.
> Once orbit is achieved, perhaps an external, track mounted robo-arm to inspect for and replace missing tiles, and also aid in attaching Starships together for fuel transfers or could also act as a QD arm to capture and refuel.
> Perhaps a not-so-pointy nose cone, but instead a semicircular capsule shaped nose cone with a reduced diameter "eyelid type" cargo door half that rotates within the slightly larger diameter heat shield half would also enable standard body tile shapes to cover the similar radius nose cone portion and allow for a large, robust cargo door.
This semicircular nose cone section might also be removable at Stage Zero to allow for various cylinder shaped third party cargo configurations to be inserted within a standardized Starship (sort of like a battery into a flashlight handle). Eg. A space station segment could be inserted to convert a Starship into a human-carrying spaceship or refuelling tanks could be inserted to convert it into a tanker, etc.
Looking forward to the fourth launch!
They should try ductape, that shit saves everything
It's just like The Force.
It has a light side and a dark side, and it binds the universe together.
NASA Developed stainless steel Velcro, they should weld the furry side to Starship and glue the hook side on the tiles.. Instant replacement! =)
It's what the rest is made from.
gorilla glue
Space shuttle failed due to tile failure!
Thank you for the "You Rock". I was on the mission control team (DSE) for 3 out of the 4 encounters. As it happens, my responsibility was data system monitoring and the FDS along with the attitude control and main computer. You might guess I was following this recent problem closely and relieved at the outcome so far. JP has done some remarkable recoveries over the years. I was lucky enough to be a mission Controler on Galileo which had a loss of its main antenna. They uped the data rate of the back up antenna from 1 bit/sec to about 100b/s along with creative SW to compress the data and trim out empty space. They icresed the ground antennas to 210 foot dish. Galileo was designed for 130k bits/s, but managed to get 70 percent of the mission.
And Magellan mission to Venus was the 1st S/C to use aero breaking, not by design but adapted to improve data. Not a recovery but a widely used technique now. I was mission controler on that too. I wish I was young enough to work for SpaceX, Mars is my favorite planet and I worked on most of the planets except Mars.
Thanks again, Felix. Danke schön.
Spacex doing scence, with the best available minds. Felix doing real journalism. Win for me.
Finally, a solar sail mission that hopefully doesn't encounter mission ending issues immediately. We need to get these sails tested ASAP so we can finally start using them to explore farther and faster than ever before!
It's great to see a solar sail mission hope it all goes well with some damned good results
I've said it before and will reiterate it again: The biggest problem with space experimentation and probes has always been the fact that l;aunches were essentially strictly rationed and hideously expensive, resulting in massive levels of ground-based engineering/prototyping - and for probes a tendency for any given launch to become an "everything including the kitchen sink" project as everyone dogpiles their pet instruments onto the initially simple mission profile
With cheaper launches, the perceived need for 1000 test articles decreases rapidly, as does having "only one" launched item
As one example, 2 dozen Beagles sent to mars wouldn't be much more expensive than one (in terms of instrument cost) and a large cheap launcher allows it to happen
Beagle suffered from too little money and then "too much, with too little time left". It launched with the same airbags which had been used in earth tests (heavily patched) because there was no way new ones could be manufacturered in time no mattrer how much money was thrown at the job. I worked at the lab which packed them for flight - they were still pulling copious quantities of water out of the vacuum chamber after 6 weeks(*) when the assembly deadline was hit, so they went as-is and staff were running bets on whether they'd inflate or remain frozen solid. If given adequate NEW airbags it probably would have landed safely - and the design is robust enough that sprinkling a bunch across Mars isn't a bad idea
(*) There was so much water in the used airbags that the turbopumps repeatedly froze up and at least one was internally destroyed by ice csystals. Gotta love the British establishment's approach to space (Ignore everything until flag waving time, then dump money at it, taking it away again after the public spectacle is over)
Heat tiles have the advantage of being easily-replacable - you can pack a bunch of them with every crewed launch and if anything happens a trined SpaceX employee could replace them with some EVA.
That is a very good point.
So are people.
Will be hard without hand holds and anchor points but I’m sure that could be worked out
Heat tiles are a MAJOR weakness of the Starship design. Good luck getting the glue to work at -65c or +150c at zero G! Do transpiration cooling by getting fluid from orbital fluid refueling station = minimum weight problems. They need orbital refueling station anyway for moon missions just make it a bit bigger to cover transpirational cooling as well.
@@TheGreat_Kramer1not if your in space
It's not a work platform at Massey's, it's a bridge across the pit so the transporters can place the test stand with ship already installed.
@16:48 so, Voyager has travelled 15 billion miles in 46 years which takes light 22 hours to travel. Our closest star neighbor is 4.2 light YEARS away! AARGGG
Yup! Space is BIG! :D We will need something better than 1960's technology to bridge the gap. Where is Ephram Cocrane? :D
Well Vogayer is only going at the escape velocity of the solarsystem so it will take very long for it to get anywhere in interstellar space, but when we travel to other stars, we will be going much much faster. The difference between a project like breakthrough starshot and voyager is that if you imagine our solarsystem being a boat, voyager is just a bottle that fell off the boat and splashed into the sea of interstellar space, while breakthrough starshot is a flying airplane.
@@Imagine_Beyond Bad thing: We lack the technology to power that airplane. Good thing: We are working on it! More funds to space exploration :)
@@graydanerasmussen4071 at least they start to reset that rocket equation, with refueling in space. I would love to see a video about a mission with "depots" stationed in different orbits of the solar system - for refueling. New Horizons did 16.2 km/s voyager does nearly 17. Hiw fast can we go, with chemical?
@@tilmerkan3882Wouldn't the "depots" have to be flying at intercept speeds to refuel an accelerating ship? That's more like in flight fueling from tankers. Hugely expensive space leapfrog game.
"So why haven't they!!" 7:19 LOL! I almost spit my covfefe out on that one.
Thermal expansion of tiles is not a design goal. Minimizing thermal expansion of tiles is a design goal.
Refractory expands due to heat just like everything else. Withour a gap they would expand and push againsteach other until they broke or popped off. The refractory used in ladles for molten steel do the same thing and are installed with paper shims that maintain the gap until first use. They burn up and the bricks expand into the gap.
Way to go JPL with the Voyager fix, It's Alive!!!
I've said for the longest SpaceX should use an Aerogel paint for a heatshield
Aerogel is brittle.
Better call Elon
Okay let’s assume you break up the aerogel into bits and make a paint out of it - what fluid do you suspend it in ? And wouldn’t that defeat the purpose of aerogel ? My understanding is that aerogel is basically a hardened sponge with many many gas pockets - down here it’s air. Also: wouldn’t it loose a significant amaount of it’s insulating capabilities in the vacuum of space ?
@@LeutnantComanderDatano it wouldn't lose its insulating properties in a vacuum and aerogel is very brittle like you could crush a cube of it in your fingers, might as well just make a foam coating like the space shuttle, but I don't know of any foam that could possibly survive re-entry
have to withstand 1500 Celsius aerogel only is half that temperature Max 650c
So you might mention the concept of a chladni plate.
The standing resonance is a tough problem for the tile design.
It's made more difficult due to the skin transitioning through many different standing harmonics and magnitudes.
I kinda forgot you have a literal Starship heat tile lol when you pulled it up like that, for a split second I was like "WHAT!?" then i remembered. Its actually really cool to have im sure
As I understand it, the tiles themselves are capable but the only problem is that too many fall off. So just improve the locking matrix to ensure they stay on?
Thing is, you have to get them off again to change them rapidly.
@@Ariel-om5fh it’s not an ablative tile, so in theory it shouldn’t degrade to such an extent that they require replacement every launch.
@@Longfire3000 "shouldn't"? They struggle to remain attached even for the launch, how do you think they'll be after re-entry stress? I've seen the space shuttle after re-entry, those tiles were good for one use.
The tiles are brittle so interlocking matrix would cause the tiles to shatter. The rocket is vibrating and flexing too much.They need something to absorb the vibrations and isolate the engines and tiles.
Wouldn’t the fix depend on the failure mode? Do the tiles end up bouncing off of each other, or are certain tiles more fragile at the clips than others leading to overtoleranced mounting with insufficient retention capacity? One would demand a more robust mounting clip, while the other might benefit from baking tougher rings into the tiles.
1:35 that smirk when you get to flex that you can just casually pull out starship heat tiles lol. 🤣
Big shoutout to the ppls at JPL, you saved my sister Voy-1! 🥰😍 We were "launched" in the same year 😂🧓
thanks for the overview on starships heat tiles and cant wait to see progress on solar sail technology.
What. I've been watching this channel for years. I can't believe I haven't subscribed yet. Thanks for reminding me.
I remember that tiles where a huge issue with the space shuttle at the time. They often delayed launches - they were a huge problem
Everyone is suggesting _larger_ tiles or even a gigantic single piece.
Larger tiles means more heat expansion per tile which will require wider gaps between them. Assuming they stick to three attachments per tile, the number of heat shield attachment points will be significantly reduced, which will _increase_ both the likelihood of losing tiles and the danger inherent in losing a tile. If the increase the number of attachment points per tile, the larger tiles will impose greater lateral stress on the mounting pins due to heat expansion and longitudinally as there are few attachment points and longer edges for air or plasma to get under.
The larger the pieces of the shield become, the more likely field repair will be required and the less likely it can be performed.
Smaller tiles are better. The smaller the tiles, the more thay can be standardized, facilitating field repair. Smaller tiles, say a quarter the suze if the current tiles, each will have 1/16 the area of tge current models so the expansion will be less, the gaps need not be so big, and the hear shield will have _sixteen_ *_times_* the amount of attachment points. Loss of one tile will present 1/16 the risk of losing one of the original tiles.
If they go with tiles a third the current size, the scaling factor is 9. If they choose half size tiles, the scaling factor is 4.
Make them smaller.
The weight of the mounting points would increase drastically…
@neotenydesigngroup
Yes. Nothing is without a "down side."
This one costs some payload but probably not lives.
I've had the idea for over a decade we need to start making diamond fiber. This is actually not that hard because diamond can be synthesized from methane onto nickel in a vacuum oven with RF electroplating. So basically you would coat diamond onto extremely thin nickel wire. This super-fiber would then be woven into a fabric and fused into the outer surface of the tile.
Re-entry means exposure to atomic oxygen and high temperature. The carbon would rapidly be eroded by atomic oxygen and the temperature would melt the nickle fiber.
@@nickl5658 The diamond fiber would be encased in a 3000F ceramic or carbon-carbon. Its a light weight reinforcement fiber. Yes nickle melts at 2651F but if its encased in diamond, which melts at 4500C it doesn't matter. You could even electrolyse the nickle during manufacturing and have hollow diamond tubules. Carbon fiber combusts at only 600C, the same solution is used, encapsulating or coating it. Since ceramics are already oxides, they work pretty good.
Missing May 24 in the calender at 11:40, so May 25 should be a Saturday.
Seems like plastic wrap to hold the heat tiles in place during the launch might be a cheap solution to keep the tiles in place. Yes, it will burn off during the re-entry.
Discard the nose cone like a sabot as soon as the rocket clears atmosphere. This leaves you with a simpler cylinder to place heat shield tiles on.
I read someplace a company came up with a different solution for the heat shield on the space shuttle a while back, sorry can't find the article, a coating that could be applied by spraying it on and could do the job as well as tile but the space shuttle was retired soon after. I worked in the Race Industry applying, ceramic / carbon fiber /aluminum coatings to exhaust systems for greater performance to reduce heat and provide better air flow I know the technology exists and would save time and most of all weight.
What I don’t understand is why they don’t just create one big ceramic shell, or at least 6-8 large segments to cover the ship, surely it’s less likely that such a big panel will just fall off like the small heat tiles
That could work. But it seems like those ceramic tiles would crack a lot easier and be a lot harder to put on and remove
I think that would be cost prohibitive.
rocket vibrate a lot. So tiles are used to have gaps allowing individual section to flex a little without causing the entire structure to shatter.
You know the bit in the video talking about thermal expansion? That's why they don't do that.
What I don't understand is how people can have the confidence to think _they_ have the solution
having tiles as examples, wow. great job felix and team, your content really is unique, love your work
Howdy from Temple, Texas! How're y'all?
19:06 hahaha die Szene musste ich mir mehrmals geben 😂
Its still amazing to see your enthusiasm Felix, just love it and I keep up the wonderful work, YOU ROCK
18:00 JPL are the kind of programmers and engineers that simultaneously give me a heart attack and hope because there are people capable of shaping a better tomorrow
17:56. . . They aren't just magicians, they are working with hardware and software that was developed by an engineering team that has either passed away, or are really old. . . If the youngest engineer on the team in 1975 was 25 years old, that engineer would be 74 years old now. Voyager 1 and 2, plus all of the ground support systems that are still functioning, isna true testament to how brilliant they truly are/were.
The tiles that NASA has been using since the 1980's is not the problem.
Right the tiles that NASA had to spend huge amounts of time and money on after every shuttle launch checking where OK are not the problem. Got you.
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 Boy if only that thing could fly.
If they would be flying to earth locations only it wouldn't be, but it's not great when landing at different planets without facilities to replace the tiles. They want something fully reusable, like an airplane, not something you have to refurbish.
Thanks for an informative video, Felix. It would be nice to know some more details about the mechanical mounting of the tiles. What are the fasteners like? Why doesn't the reentry just burn them off? How do they allow quick tile replacement? What ensures correct tension of the fastener?...
The evaporative heatshield was so cool, hope to see the cooling by fire back.
As for the tiles, I wonder if some kind of magnetically actuated lock could be integrated in them such that an electromagnet over them could open or close the lock, less permanent than glue, not that hard to install but quite a bit more complex to make and a bit more weight.
Stainless steel is not magnetic.
Speaking purely as a lay person who has followed the American and Russian space program since the early 60s, I think the heat shield tiles are a major problem. It worked with the space shuttle, apart from the tragic loss of Columbia but ablative heat shields seem the most tested and reliable. The tiles on Starship have fallen off on the the test stand and we’re possibly the reason Test 3 of Starship didn’t make it back, although early entry video also showed it out of control and spinning. And do the engineers know exactly where the plasma effect on re-entry will stop? What if it goes 10mm above the tiles and breaches the unprotected part of the spacecraft?
That's what those tests are supposed to find out. What SpaceX is doing here is re-think *everything*. If they were planning to just use techniques that have been tested a lot and are known as reliable but offer some drawback, e.g. ablative heat shields disappearing over time, they'd be just another space company. However, their goal is to make access to space friggin' CHEAP, cheap enough that it would e.g. put the companies offering zero-g flights out of business by offering instead of just a total of maybe an hour of weightlessness per flight several hours or even several days at the same price point. The numbers they're claiming would make if plausible for even people like you or me to save up and book a week of vacation on a space station.
This will not work if they have to install a new heat shield after each flight, so they're trying to find a better way. The rockets they're currently flying are expendable. Actually, them being lost at some point in the test chain is the expected outcome, while a survival to the last test would be unexpected (and possibly a bit of a disappointment). Losing a few ships while trying out new ways to make the ship survive reentry is acceptable - it's what happens to all other upper stages as well, the only thing that survives is a specifically designed reentry capsule. Ok, the Space Shuttle also was an upper stage that survived reentry, but other than that?
Test 3 did not make it back because it was tumbling in space. With occasion when the engines were being exposed to the reentry plasma. It was tumbling because its engines were leaking fuel and did not have enough RCS to halt the tumble.
@@nickl5658 actually, it wasn't the main engines leaking, it was probably some of the RCS thrusters that had been abused for the Oxygen dump that were frozen and either not properly closing or not properly opening. I'm sure SpaceX will find a solution.
@@realulli Thank you for your well reasoned reply and I agree with what you’ve said. Clearly a space geek like me!
one old concept proposed for using the old X 15 as a orbital craft was a very thick paint but the X 20 was proposed and that was abandoned
wow - launch prep is really getting exciting! 🙂
The white mat blanket is similar to what was eventually used on non-critical areas of shuttle and seems to be a good solution to dealing with what gets between the tiles
I wonder if SpaceX will move to "wetting" the mat to allow sweating (cooling) _under_ the tiles (a kind of hybrid cooling system). You've covered ablative cooling's major downsides
As for the shapes, the hex design allows standardised tilesets for each row along the nose curves, etc instead of having 30,000 individually shaped pieces (shuttle)
One other option is to significantly enlarge the reentry frontal area - either by a larger body or inflatable extensions - eg: LOFTID aeroshell
It'll be interesting to see how SpaceX achieve rapidly reusable orbital/re-entry vehicles and likely to be a multifaceted approach
Thanks Felix, Great information!!!
So wild... was a tent on a hill not more than 6 years ago.
There aren't any hills at Boca Chica. Only sand dunes, a few feet tall at most.
@Spherical_Cow Yes, and go look at pictures of the hill they built to put up a very large tent to start prototypes...
Literally, a tent on a hill is how this story begins.
CRAZY TILE SECURNG IDEA --->>>There is a U shaped nail called a steeple; used in farm Barbed wire fencing. They could be custom manufactured out of a high temperature resistant stainless alloy so that they could still be welded; With the legs of the U down on the outer surface of the ship,. and the Curved part protruding out past the surface of the tiles . The welded steeples would be swaged, or hammered over, so to pinch down on the tiles from opposite sides. They would transfer some heat to the ship tank outer surface but it would be minimal since the steeple legs would only be about 4mm thick. Spot or resistance welding could be employed.
Felix, love your channel, keep up the good work! I have an idea for the Star Ship heat tile problem. Interconnect each tile to each adjacent tile with a cable interlock system (titanium or other flexible high temp material). This way if a mechanical bond fails the surrounding tiles will hold it in place. This would work similar to chainmail provide protection yet allow flexibility. Additionally, you may be able to reduce the number of pins used to hold the tiles on, thus negating some of the added weight. If only I could suggest to Tim Dodd to suggest to Elon. Like the RCS suggestion. lol
You become more and more entertaining. Appreciated!
Felix & Staff - Great episode. Good detail on reentry topic! Let me throw in a suggestion for a future topic for you and your team.
When will Starship have a crewed flight from Earth to orbit? I still think that the total number of flights that will be demanded by FAA for "safety assurance" will kill the ability of SpaceX to put larger than 4 to 6 people in orbit.
How about a deep dive on what another variant of Starship that has a separable crew compartment would look like? The separable crew compartment would allow escape of a nominal 10 to 20 person passenger manifest from pad abort through abort during second stage (Starship) failure.
This might convince FAA to allow crewed flights earlier. Two versions would exist a crew version that could carry people but not a lot of cargo and a cargo version.
Perhaps Ryan Hansen or Caspar Stanley or others could help in the imagining such a vehicle variant.
Thanks!
Greetings from South Dakota! Love your updates, keep up the good work. ❤
I love what you guys do! This is so awesome! I enjoy every episode. You rock! No matter what!
Just a small factoid about The Voyager missions. When I was in middle school a group from NASA came to the school and gave a pretty long and impressive presentation on something they were calling The Grand Tour. A once in a generation opportunity to visit the outer planets. I guess they thought they had a chance to affect its popularity. They had a generation who had grown up watching the Mercury and Gemini missions. We kids were happy because we got out of classes for an afternoon. The planets would be arranged in such a way that a mission could use each planet to reach the next. Like I said, I was in middle school (grades 6 through 8). So it was between 1966 and 1968. The Grand Tour became the Voyager missions. I followed the progress of the project from then on. Both voyagers launched 10 years later when I was 21. So this project has had a baring on my life for 59 of my 69 years. Don't say that the US doesn't plan long term. 70 years and still going is the Great Pyramid and Notre-Dame long term LOL
Questions.
1)What is re-entry temp?
2)What is Glue temp rating?
3)Do the tiles expand and contract upon apply heat? Is this the reason for the gaps? 4)What is being used to seal the gaps? Same glue to adhere tiles or different product? Is it possible if it’s the same product heat transfer causes failure and the temp reaches interior under the tile and creates tile to pop off?
5) any discussion of possible exoskeleton that has threaded pins to adhere the tiles mechanically with nuts and washers? The exoskeleton could act as a heat sink and be spaced away from hull to prevent heat transfer to hull. Exoskeleton attached mechanically as part of the design. But gives ability to simply unbolt the tiles. I would think then a light layer of a suitable heat resistant pant or other material could cover the entire surface. Later if a tile or area needs addressed, repairs are possible without destruction.
I agree. The tiles are the key.
Your channel is amazing. Keep up the great work.
Re-entry appears the worst problem for re-usable spacecraft, and maybe for all spacecraft that must return to Earth. As long as you have a whole bunch of individually attached tiles, you're in for a lot of work before the next launch.
What might help: Make the heat shield a separate piece, stowed away until close to re-entry. Pull it out and strap it on for the very last moments. It will not be exposed to the stresses of launch, or for very long to the vacuum of Space. Discard it after landing, leaving all else to be refurbished, but no damaged heat shield with tiles. It may not even have to last all the way down, just to the point where heating is not too severe-although cutting it loose may be difficult until parachute deployment.
Other possibilities: (1) Buoyant early trajectory (some variant of aerobraking), (2) Powered descent, (3) Transpiration (perhaps refueling fuel tanks in orbit), or some combination of multiple options.
The only thing that will work for starship. Change the space ship to all aluminum, except for all the heat surface. On this side lay down a thermal blank and place a titanium skin of a .115 thick skin. If they are correct that the heat doesn’t rise above 2,400 max. The titanium can be reused up to 20 to 25 launches. Even then only the front would need replacement. But changing to aluminum and titanium will be much lighter so the friction should be 400 degrees less.
The space shuttle tiles was three part process to manufacture and heat cure. They had a zero gap between tiles. They alway received damage after every flight. Which required 4 months to repair and turn around. So while reusable they all required a major rebuild after every flight. Each tile was an individual mold process. This would make the starship truly reusable. Plus much lighter to put into orbit.
Both Aluminum and Titanium are more expensive than steel. The latter being several times more expensive. And funnily enough, having an Aluminum and Titanium hull won't reduce weight.
Starships hull is currently the walls for the fuel tanks. Replacing the steel with aluminum would been redesigning the fuel tanks and adding walls. Adding more weight.
Also, Starship is massive. 50m tall. Over 150 feet tall. That is a LOT of titanium that's required to cover the entire surface. Millions of dollars just in the siding.
Realistically all they need to do is update the lattice the heat shields sit on. One that absorbs the vibrations from launch better and that's the solution. If a heat tiles or two fall, no big deal. The Steel can take the heat and damage. That's why the Space Shuttle needed to be thoroughly investigated after every launch. The aluminum hull couldn't take the heat
Titanium autoignites at 1200 C. A titanium starship would never make it through reentry.
@@nickl5658
Moron speck to what you can verify. Melting point on titanium is 3,034 degrees. Have you heard of google?
I have 45 years in every material made.
@whataboutit Why do they need a quick disconnect? Why can't it be a slow disconnect at T-60 seconds and it withdraws into a safe secure area well before ignition. There can't be that much boil off in a minute can there?
How about tiles with some carbon fiber added for strength? Think of it like a tile alloy.
Best teacher ever. Learned sooo much from this channel.
May I suggest?
I would like to see an episode explaining orbital mechanics.
For example: If I launched a rocket ship to Mars, from Lunar orbit at just the right time, when the orbital speed of the Moon is added to the rocket's speed? (Also depending on Mars/Earth/Moon positions in relation to each other, I think?)
Also, what kind of an orbit is a Solar Orbit of Earth? How does that work? I imagine that the Hubble telescope has an opposite type of orbit.
You could also focus on the different type of satellite networks being launched by different companies.
Anyway, I get my best info from WAI and straight forward reporting. Thanks
Ciao, I would like to ask you to please tell me the measurements of the regular hexagonal tiles. Thank you!
Harmonic rippling up and down the ships body rips off those tiles during the launch.
I think the biggest reason for not using carbon fibre is, in spite of it's great strength, it can still break. Cars with bodies made with carbon fibre, having been in even slight fender benders, need whole parts replaced because the section gets cracked or broken and cannot be fixed. Not a problem with a car that is not going to space. However, developing a crack in your hull in outer space is not a good thing and it cannot be fixed. Think of hitting the hull with a bullet (micro asteroid). A stainless steel hull will get a hole but the hole can be plugged and the integrity of the hull is still maintained. The same cannot be said of carbon fiber.
The X-33 Venture star had Inconel Scales offset from the pressure vessel. Lockheed Patented?
Naaah, more like price of inconel. SpaceX is using shorter bells on mvacs when it's doesn't need full capability. Simply because inconel is so expensive.
The 'never built' X-33,... had proposed Inconel Scales, not Actual Inconel Scales.
Perhaps transpirational cooling could work with giant printed metal shields that have the tiny capillaries built in. These could be printed in any size and shape required with possibly just a few dozen parts. Also liquid nitrogen could be used as a more environmentally friendly choice of coolant.
Believe it or not, high temperature silicone RTV, capable of withstanding 7-800 degrees, might be the perfect adhesive for the tiles. It remains flexible and forms a very tough bond between steel and the styrofoam-like heat tiles. Only drawback I can see is it is hell to remove from the steel if a tile gets damaged.
Excellent stuff bro
Another excellent report. Good job Felix.
Couldn't they just make a few huge rounded solid heat sheild. This would be useful for protecting huge parts of the starship.
heavy vibrations and flexing of the rocket skin during launch could crack large ceremic heat shield which are very brittle.
You forgot to mention that spaceX few months ago had test segment with prepared for much smaller tiles. You reported that too.
So maybe most of issues with heatshields IS solved, just will be implemented on next prototypes, and existing prototypes are just reinforced woth glue to survive first re-entry
You all owe me a whole *BUNCH* of new tablets: every time I *SMASH* that like button, my tablet blinks a few times, smokes, and never works again.
How about I just press it gently?
Thanks Felix. It just proves that heat abatement counter measures are a hard nut to crack. Especially when your method is rapid reusability. Fascinating subject matter. Cheers.
Any thoughts on using some form of ceramic tiles to protect the OLM?
Heat Tiles: I've been wanting to know the dimensions and mass of a standard heat tile for modeling purposes and here you are with a full one in your hand (0:30). For a standard tile, what is the distance across the flat edges? What does the standard full tile weigh?
They need to develop an energy generated electromagnetic or electroplasma shield.
I do believe that the tiles are still considered an ablative material. They dont wear away as fast as a traditionally ablative shield, but they still wear down and require inspection after each use.
Well there's an easy way or multiple ways to keep the heat shields on, either make Bigger Heat Sheilds or Paint over the Heat shields with a Thick fireproof Paint, or Just make a thinner gauge steel casing, including dimples like a Golf Ball and put an Steel Casing over the area all so dimpled but thinner gauge steel, Hope that helps DIMPLES IT WOULD LIKE NICE lol
the tiles should connect to each of its neighbours, maybe slotting together allowing for expansion
We have to go faster for interstellar, or even just around our own system, but light sails feed by lasers, is only a small part of the solution, there's more then just light in the Stellar Wind.
I don't know if it will work but maybe instead of the 3 push-in clips on the back, try a slide-in rail type attachment. Like a T attachment for the sides of the heat shield with a slit in its sides.
5. Advanced Flexible Reusable Surface Insulation (AFRSI) blankets were developed after the orbiter Columbia was built. AFRSI blankets consist of sewn composite quilted fabric insulation that is sandwiched between two layers of white fabric that are sewn together to essentially form a quilted blanket. AFRSI blankets were used on Discovery and Atlantis and replaced the vast majority of the LRSI tiles. Columbia had the AFRSI blankets added after its seventh flight. Each orbiter has about 1,900 square feet of AFRSI blankets. The advantages to the AFRSI blankets to LRSI tiles are that they are more durable, less fabrication, less installation time and costs, and a weight reduction. These blankets are used in areas where the temperature does not exceed 1,200 oF.
Unfortunately, the windward side of Starship (the one covered with tiles) greatly exceeds 1200°F upon reentry (it has to contend with temperatures in excess of 1200°C, not F). Any other parts of the surface that see 1200°F or lower temperatures, don't need any protection at all - because stainless steel already withstands such temperatures easily, all by itself.
@@Spherical_Cow Stainless steel, great for toaster ovens and cookware. Rocket ships? I wouldn't be too sure.
@@DCGreenZone the high structural strength, inherent resistance to both high heat and cryogenic temperatures, as well as good endurance in the face of such extreme temperature cycling, are all among the reasons SpaceX went with that specific stainless steel alloy for Starship construction, in the first place.
@@Spherical_Cow Sounds good. Keep me posted on the reliability of this project. I hope they move those fuel tanks at Boca Chica before they decide to move themselves.
Is there more of an elastic type coating that they could use rather than tiles? Wouldn't something like that last longer and be easier to apply?
So if I was to guess what those heat shields are made of, I would say perlite held together with liquid glass. The way you held them and the color inside
Heat tiles will always be a weakness. I’m surprised an alternative has not been found.
An alternative was developed for the X-33 that was abandoned even as it was being constructed. It used light weight Inconel and titanium panels that locked together to form an armored surface on the vehicle. It was very durable although more expensive. It is impractical for Starship because of the weight. Stainless steel is already proving to be too be very heavy.
Yes, the heat tiles are the biggest weakness which I think will be a very difficult problem to solve, especially if the goal is to use the Starship a lot more than 1 or 2 times a year like the NASA space shuttle. Probably more difficult than the Raptor engines problem not working on launch and landing. I was skeptical they could get all the Raptor engines working on the booster at the same time, when needed, but if they can solve that problem I think they can definitely solve the heat tile problem.
WhatAboutIt really got some great futuristic tech visuals man
Thanks Felix! We really liked the Voyager update.. Does anyone out there know if there is a book about both Voyager missions?
i agree the tiles are tough
New 3D printable porous material, based on stainless iirc, have been recently discovered. They could be a solution for active cooling, at least in some specific areas.
They tried that in the easiest iteration of starship. Did not work. They used liquid methane as the active coolant. Test showed the methane was compressed so close to the surface, that upon decomposition it left carbon soot that rapidly clogged the material, rendering it useless.
@@nickl5658 Interesting - maybe that's why Stoke Space (who are using active cooling on their 2nd stage) is using hydrogen rather than methane fuel on their 2nd stage.
What about slowing the entry over a week or more to reduce heating and erosion occurring compared tp fast entry to landing?
Orbital dynamics are a b*tch. Slow down just a tiny bit and your new orbit intersects the earth's atmosphere. Starship's design doesn't produce enough lift to skip off that atmosphere. And even if it could... it wouldn't be long before you lost enough speed that you could not perform another skip.
Great content as usual, but I'm not sure about those little pantomime scenes that have been edited into the final render.
In aviation what's not bolted falls. The tiles need to be simply bolted to the body with external surface ceramic surface plug covering inner nut. Plug is fairly small to be glued, even if you lose the plug, you don't loose the tile. The tile plug/nut can be also ceramic thus keeping the weight the same. The ceramic nut plug should resemble old house screw-in fuse with torque tool indentations on the top.
It’s not that simple. I have the tiles here. They’re extremely brittle and soft.
@@Whataboutit They are already using metal spikes attached to the body. I suggest bolt them down instead of clip them on. I also suggesting large nut made out of same ceramic material at least 3" in diameter. I further suggest to have kevlar armature net on the inside of the tile to make them more rigid. The nut should look like a short thick bolt (mushroom) where the top is even with the tile surface. The nut can be locked in place with a special tool. Spacex is trying this work on the "cheap". It will not work. It didn't work for the shuttle. The next step is to make the flexible fabric from these tiles and reduce them 20% in size. The same way the small bathroom tiles are sold.
This was an exceptionally interesting episode. 👍
Thanks Felix and team! 😃
(Can't nail it better, but somehow it caught me more than others. Maybe cause I had some delicious food in parallel. 🍱😋)
Question on solar sails... if we could move the satellite around the sun, then activate a sling shot affect just before activating the solar sails... would we be able to increase the speed and reduce the time? Just curious and appreciate what you do.
They need to make one giant tile, for easier installation and replacement. IMO
And YES I know theyd have to make a super giant industrial ovens to make it.
Also an ablative heat shield under it just as extra insurance.
Ist this an original Starship heat shield tile? Where I can get one?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the tiles are failing at the internal attachment points...Why not put a steel plate on the back of the heat tiles that connects to the mounting pins to prevent them from having a localized stress point from vibration? The plate would be snapped or clicked onto the mounting pins and serves as a larger surface area for the heat shield to be bonded to while still allowing easy removal/installation with the mounting pins, Love your content Felix, watched every episode since the first one - Ben Newsome
For an interstellar probe to be useful, it needs to send data back to Earth. With the payload mass less than a kilogram, I can think of only two ways to do that. First would be a laser so a small amount of power would still make a detectable. Second would be to change the shape of the sail slightly to alter the reflected propulsion laser back to Earth. The data rate would be low, but there isn't much data to transmit for most of the trip. Once it got near the destination, solar energy from the star could power the mechanism.
Last I heard they’re planning to make the constellation have a square shape from our perspective, then have each probe flash on and off to send data that way. Gotta wait four years to start receiving data, but that’s the fastest we can expect anyway.
Would a powered reentry be feasible? Slow vehicle down enough to minimize max temp on the hull.
I think they will eventually come up with some kind of better flexible spring clip for the tiles which will fix the problem
I still think they should make the heat shields into one large piece. A large sleeve they can slide over the Starship. Should be easier to install and less likely for pieces to fall off.
Heat shields: remember the buckyballs they found on meteorites? What is their heat resistance capacity? How hard would they be to create if it was usable?
Have they ever tried to incorporate the heat shield stuff into the rocket body?
A heat shield must not only resist melting/erosion itself, but also must impede heat conduction through it to the underlying structures. AFAIK bucky balls aren't known for extremely low heat conduction.
You have 3 problems with reentry
higher temperature
molecular erosion by free atomic oxygen
heat conductivity
Anything carbon based will be eroded by atomic oxygen and can only be used as an ablative shield. Also buckyball are thermal conductive and will send all that heat outside, inside.
I would think the tiles need a better mechanical attachment solution. Clips on the back of a brittle material seem like an easy failure point.
Why not a hole for at least one wide headed screw? inconel could be used as a coating for the head of the screw.