DAMN that was close! Well played on both sides, down to the wire. Didn't really seem like Khatep contributed that much, but maybe I missed it. Crypt Horrors are still absolute worldbeaters, but like you said, two of the most unfun factions fighting each other means that no matter who loses, we all win.
What both players were thinking at the start: "Hehehe let's see you get through all this unholy garbage..." You're finding some great close games in WH3 pvp! Keep on keepin on!
I don't think tomb king skeletons should have expendable. They should have something to outclass simple summonsed skeletons since they have their souls still.
Capture weight should be tied to unit cost generally, at least for infantry. Then undead factions need to lose their capture weight once they are crumbling.
@@nickaretta1329 They aren't expendable. Maybe they should be, but they aren't. The other factions' skeletons are expendable. And changing that has big implications for campaign. So, unless they just say "Yo, TK skels get expendable capture weight even though they aren't expendable', there's not a lot that they can do.
TK skeletons not being expendable is probably a lore thing. Each TK skeleton is an actual individual, whereas VC skeletons are just fodder that was raised from the dead. Also Horrors should be like 200g more. Compare them to any other monstrous infantry and they're just not even in the same ballpark.
Hey turin! First off, mad respect, love your positivity; I watch almost every video you release and the only time I've ever noticed you're upset is when people are unkind in chat, which is 😎. Now for the onion, I think you have a habit of listing the winner of battles first in the titles.
I hope that the undead, and especially the Tomb Kings get brought more into line with the rest of the lineup at some point - whether by buffing other factions or making the healing less oppressive. They're one of my favourite factions and I'd love to be able to see them more!
In addition to more effectively balancing crumbling the tomb king skeletons having normal capture weight is pretty egregious. Change them to expendable and tomb kings are much more manageable.
@@spellbound1875 Tomb Kings skeletons are not expendable , they have souls as old as elves & were experienced warriors in life on top of serving as oathbound warriors rather than brainwashed automata , while their stats have always been trash they need something that reflects this in their gameplay, and not having the expendable trait while slave undead do is a very solid translation of this into the game mechanics .
@@Marcusjnmc Vampire counts skeletons aren't expendable per the game tag CA just lowered their capture weight for balance purposes. This isn't a lore issue it's a game balance one.
i feel like you should have to move a unit to the back of your deployment zone to unsummon it, here tomb king lord was about to get charged and die so he just unsummons it in the middle of the battlefeild. Seems like bs to me.
That screws over a lot of slower units though. The compromise I hear most players suggest is just making the resummoning effect take 10ish seconds. Basically long enough that you can't use it reactively to try and get out of a sticky situation.
@@Aayren That you fix by removing the refund for desummoning the unit. A desummoned artillery and a dead artillery have the same active impact on the battle so if you don't get a resource bonus for desummoning players aren't going to be incentivised to do it.
@@spellbound1875 And then there also need to be a fix with unlimite restore of WoM from some of the items. Ive seen 10 dwellers in on battle witch is bonkers.
@@Aayren Yeah adding WoM to the reserve is a mechanic I'd like to see stay in campaign broadly speaking. It's hard to balance spells when the amount that can be cast varies so much. Though Dwellers does just need to be nerfed anyway.
Tomb Kings infantry should be comparable to Empire infantry , they're respected warriors rather than expendable chaff , even if they always have had chaff stats , they're not meant to be the same as vampire counts skeletons one to one given they're bones with souls rather than bone automata .
Crumbling units are fighting units. Undead should capture while crumbling because they are actively contesting the zone. Not routing ever is like the main thing for undead.
The Crypt horrors were saturated with Grave Guard who were absorbing hits and then they still lost the fight against a 75% health stalker. That's not an unusual outcome considering the price and situation. In a straight fight without the infantry buffering Crypt Horrors get melted. They have low damage output and mediocre stats beyond health/regen.
Stalkers are really poor in melee, with a low stat line and HP they crumble even against units they should be good against. Crypt horrors for example have like 50% more hp. Stalkers are mostly a ranged tool that can defend itself if absolutely necessary.
they're really not that great in a straight fight, pit em against minotaurs or any other monstrous infantry and after chunking like 1/3 of their HP at range, they get destroyed
Cast Neru's 11 times. It's only 15.4% healing across the entire duration of the game so I'm not sold on it being a good strategy just to bring him naked like that. If we want to try and put a value to it, we could add the values of TK army and VC damage done by the end (roughly 20k damage done by VC and 5K on the field for TK) to get 25,000, then multiply that by the healing done (15.4%) and we get 3850. So... theoretically, you could say Khatep got about 3850 value (not counting whatever value the damage reduction from Neru's would have had).
I can't imagine the catapults were worth it. Maybe 1 of them sure, but the amount of friendly fire combined with the mediocre value... Doesn't seem worth it.
All the gamey unsummoning, focus on vanguard deploys, and unbalanced capture weight spoiled my enjoyment of the game. Dawn of War II did this match type better a decade ago, and EUGEN has a series of games (WARNO) based around the concept of take-and-hold capture points. I hope CA does a large redesign and balance pass as a part of the 'free' portion of the next DLC- I *want* to like Domination, and it does neatly solve a lot of the problems of land battles, but there's so many perverse incentives in the game design of the match type that I can't help but notice they decide literally every single game- from artillery unsummoning allowing you to recover 50% investment, to rendering factions basically immune from lord morale loss if you don't mis-micro, to each faction having individually managed unit capture weights (Who has expendable? What counts as Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry? How do we treat undead? Demonic?), etc. Ideally, Creative Assembly's balance team would do something like index capture weight to unit weight x current health and balance accordingly, but I don't think CA sees TW:Warhammer as anything other than a single-player game, so I'm pessimistic that these problems will get solved and we can get back to Turin memeing for the first 5 minutes of every video, instead of talking about regeneration, capture weight, and undercosted units.
DAMN that was close! Well played on both sides, down to the wire. Didn't really seem like Khatep contributed that much, but maybe I missed it. Crypt Horrors are still absolute worldbeaters, but like you said, two of the most unfun factions fighting each other means that no matter who loses, we all win.
Khatep's contribution was solely spamming Neru's to trigger the TK broken passive. Essential, but not flashy.
Unfortunately there's no way to track all the healing he provided.
What both players were thinking at the start: "Hehehe let's see you get through all this unholy garbage..."
You're finding some great close games in WH3 pvp! Keep on keepin on!
I don't think tomb king skeletons should have expendable. They should have something to outclass simple summonsed skeletons since they have their souls still.
Agreed. Either slightly more leadership OR slightly less crumbling degen... But the unit cost has to be increased a little.
Maybe when in a large area of a tombking, lord or hero all tomb king gets a small but significant buff.
Capture weight should be tied to unit cost generally, at least for infantry. Then undead factions need to lose their capture weight once they are crumbling.
@@gizmodud7267 There actually is a passive ability for Tomb Kings called "My Will be Done" which provides melee attack to surrounding units
What an unholy tide push from the tk near the endgame, felt like 20 units of skeleton warriors on the field at once
I can't believe they have 5 whole capture weight. That's some terrifying imbalance
@@nickaretta1329 They aren't expendable. Maybe they should be, but they aren't. The other factions' skeletons are expendable. And changing that has big implications for campaign. So, unless they just say "Yo, TK skels get expendable capture weight even though they aren't expendable', there's not a lot that they can do.
@@timothymallory6706 What implication does it have for campaign? Does the Expendable trait somehow make the units worse in any relevant way?
@@rebel8707 I think the implication is that it would make the entire faction stronger.
@@Busketroll How exactly would it make it stronger?
This can't be a sweat match up since the undead can't sweat
Saponification-match.
Not even in Woking pizza express
But they CAN get wet.
skeletons > meat shield
They sweat formaldehyde
Thanks for finding a way to do TK vod without it being a tedious stomp :D
Hope the skellington lads get brought into line soon!
You know that an undead showdown is epic when Turin has enormous reverb on his voice!
Wonder when the Finals DLC that introduces living factions to the top brackets comes out
I love the Airplane! reference in the thumbnail! So sweaty!
TK skeletons not being expendable is probably a lore thing. Each TK skeleton is an actual individual, whereas VC skeletons are just fodder that was raised from the dead.
Also Horrors should be like 200g more. Compare them to any other monstrous infantry and they're just not even in the same ballpark.
Hey turin! First off, mad respect, love your positivity; I watch almost every video you release and the only time I've ever noticed you're upset is when people are unkind in chat, which is 😎. Now for the onion, I think you have a habit of listing the winner of battles first in the titles.
I realized that you list the person who submitted the battle first in the title, and people tend to only submit battles they win.
Would be great to see actual healing done and healing done as point value. Would be a useful statistic to evaluate healing abilities.
Ironic that the sweatiest match-up is dry as a bone.
Now put some Slaanesh in there, and we're talking.
Slaanesh is down w dry too...
soup is back on the meny boys
I hope that the undead, and especially the Tomb Kings get brought more into line with the rest of the lineup at some point - whether by buffing other factions or making the healing less oppressive. They're one of my favourite factions and I'd love to be able to see them more!
just make crumbling matter. Daemons degenerate a lot quicker than undead
In addition to more effectively balancing crumbling the tomb king skeletons having normal capture weight is pretty egregious. Change them to expendable and tomb kings are much more manageable.
@@spellbound1875 Tomb Kings skeletons are not expendable , they have souls as old as elves & were experienced warriors in life on top of serving as oathbound warriors rather than brainwashed automata , while their stats have always been trash they need something that reflects this in their gameplay, and not having the expendable trait while slave undead do is a very solid translation of this into the game mechanics .
@@Marcusjnmc Vampire counts skeletons aren't expendable per the game tag CA just lowered their capture weight for balance purposes. This isn't a lore issue it's a game balance one.
Always happy to be called a Lady and Gentleman of the Old World.
Lore wise the ethereal units of every faction should fly. Would be really cool.
And that’s when Khatep realized...... he had a drinking problem
i feel like you should have to move a unit to the back of your deployment zone to unsummon it, here tomb king lord was about to get charged and die so he just unsummons it in the middle of the battlefeild. Seems like bs to me.
That screws over a lot of slower units though. The compromise I hear most players suggest is just making the resummoning effect take 10ish seconds. Basically long enough that you can't use it reactively to try and get out of a sticky situation.
@@spellbound1875 Also the artilerry than can shoot from the deployment zone and then be unsummoned straight away.
@@Aayren That you fix by removing the refund for desummoning the unit. A desummoned artillery and a dead artillery have the same active impact on the battle so if you don't get a resource bonus for desummoning players aren't going to be incentivised to do it.
@@spellbound1875 And then there also need to be a fix with unlimite restore of WoM from some of the items. Ive seen 10 dwellers in on battle witch is bonkers.
@@Aayren Yeah adding WoM to the reserve is a mechanic I'd like to see stay in campaign broadly speaking. It's hard to balance spells when the amount that can be cast varies so much. Though Dwellers does just need to be nerfed anyway.
DJ Khatep on Averheim versus the vampire counts is always lovely to see
Tomb Kings infantry should be comparable to Empire infantry , they're respected warriors rather than expendable chaff , even if they always have had chaff stats , they're not meant to be the same as vampire counts skeletons one to one given they're bones with souls rather than bone automata .
Excellent battle! Whoo Hoo!
If I ever end up in a fantasy world I'm cremating all the corpses that can't be quickly Resurrected
Incredible thumbnail 😂
Few micro errors really just gave the win to the tomb kings here
Love the AIRPLANE! ref. So good
this was a proper finals.
Love the thumbnail 😂
What a grind of a game 😆
Crumbling units are fighting units. Undead should capture while crumbling because they are actively contesting the zone. Not routing ever is like the main thing for undead.
Yes not to mention it follows the rule of cool.
Wow that was so close
Seems a little busted that standard skeletons don't have reduced capture weight
wow! great match
Hot dang that's the closest game I've seen, what a nailbiter!
Its quite the og thematic match up tho
I just want to wish you all good luck, we are all counting on you
RiffleShuffle is such a good name
It was a graveyard smash
why no titan?
I don't think lore of nehekara passive heals tomb king constructs which is why it's stronger.
ultimate sweat match. i love it
Razor tight game
Crypt horrors really are ridiculous. They had no business doing as well as the did against the sepulchral stalkers in a straight up fight
The Crypt horrors were saturated with Grave Guard who were absorbing hits and then they still lost the fight against a 75% health stalker. That's not an unusual outcome considering the price and situation. In a straight fight without the infantry buffering Crypt Horrors get melted. They have low damage output and mediocre stats beyond health/regen.
Stalkers are really poor in melee, with a low stat line and HP they crumble even against units they should be good against. Crypt horrors for example have like 50% more hp. Stalkers are mostly a ranged tool that can defend itself if absolutely necessary.
they're really not that great in a straight fight, pit em against minotaurs or any other monstrous infantry and after chunking like 1/3 of their HP at range, they get destroyed
Turin really hoping for the VC to win lol
So what did Khatep do?
Spammed Neru's Incantation of Protection, which in turn triggered his passive ability The Restless Dead, giving his army healing in an area.
Cast Neru's 11 times. It's only 15.4% healing across the entire duration of the game so I'm not sold on it being a good strategy just to bring him naked like that. If we want to try and put a value to it, we could add the values of TK army and VC damage done by the end (roughly 20k damage done by VC and 5K on the field for TK) to get 25,000, then multiply that by the healing done (15.4%) and we get 3850.
So... theoretically, you could say Khatep got about 3850 value (not counting whatever value the damage reduction from Neru's would have had).
Everyone was boned in this match
Tomb Kings being called overpowered feels really weird to me
great
I can't imagine the catapults were worth it. Maybe 1 of them sure, but the amount of friendly fire combined with the mediocre value... Doesn't seem worth it.
Any AOE4 tomorrow or today?
Turin AoE Tournament Stream on Sunday Nov 6th. Turin Nomad FFA Tournament Sign-ups (Nov 6th) -
challonge.com/3d39e6wm
Messed up how this match up can be described as 'boomers vs zoomers'
Razor close game.
man wind of death is so weak now
And nothing of value was lost.
All the gamey unsummoning, focus on vanguard deploys, and unbalanced capture weight spoiled my enjoyment of the game.
Dawn of War II did this match type better a decade ago, and EUGEN has a series of games (WARNO) based around the concept of take-and-hold capture points.
I hope CA does a large redesign and balance pass as a part of the 'free' portion of the next DLC- I *want* to like Domination, and it does neatly solve a lot of the problems of land battles, but there's so many perverse incentives in the game design of the match type that I can't help but notice they decide literally every single game- from artillery unsummoning allowing you to recover 50% investment, to rendering factions basically immune from lord morale loss if you don't mis-micro, to each faction having individually managed unit capture weights (Who has expendable? What counts as Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry? How do we treat undead? Demonic?), etc.
Ideally, Creative Assembly's balance team would do something like index capture weight to unit weight x current health and balance accordingly, but I don't think CA sees TW:Warhammer as anything other than a single-player game, so I'm pessimistic that these problems will get solved and we can get back to Turin memeing for the first 5 minutes of every video, instead of talking about regeneration, capture weight, and undercosted units.
each faction having individuality even in similar units is just the nature of warhammer