For those who may not know, in the winter of 1952, Bud Herseth was driving home on a nasty winter evening when his car lost traction and hit an abutment. He hit his lower lip and teeth on the steering wheel which flattened his lower front teeth and cut his lower lip very badly. After six weeks of dental work and healing, he went back to work. The big issue was his nerves were cut and he lost feeling in his lower lip. It never phased him and he continued on playing brilliantly until he retired. . After the accident to go over the scar tissue, he played on very large Bach mouthpieces, a 1, 1B, and 1C which is just one of the reasons his sound is so extraordinary.
Dave, this isn't just a "Reference," it's easily a candidate for the finest version ever recorded; although Ormandy's comes a very close second. Honestly, I doubt Reiner's version will ever be surpassed, and please God may it never go out of print.
I picked up a 24/96Khz download from HDTT and it is the purest version of Reiner's recording I have ever heard. The Living Stereo boys (Max Wilcox, John Pfeiffer) left a real legacy which holds up very musically into our era.
Apologies to quibble but 'purest' version? HDTT often transfer from old consumer issue tapes, and possibly many generations away from the analogue original master tape, which presumably RCA (Sony) use for their versions. HDTT I find expensive by comparison, not significantly different in sound quality with commercial issues. They are most useful for material not easily available (the Wynn Morris New Philharmonia Mahler 10th, for example, which sounds OK but not really exceptional).
@@curseofmillhaven1057 "Sourced from a 15ips 2-track tape". That's what was used for the SACD version, as well. You are welcome to your opinion as am also with mine. I agree those productions are not "all" uniformly great. I think this one is, but I force that opinion neither on you nor anyone else.
@jbbevan Thanks for replying. Absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just don't quite understand how the HDTT version is somehow 'purer' than any other release, particularly if you are saying the same tape was used for the official SACD (i'm surprised as HDTT are usually quite tight lipped about the provenance of their tapes...15ips or otherwise)? For me, the bottom line is this, I've never heard a bad mastering of this excellent recording (true, my original 1970's vinyl pressing was ropey, but that's a different story) and that's partly why it's so famous. And for me, all this tech talk, 24bit 96khz and beyond, is completely irrelevant.
Adolph “Bud” Herseth was the principal trumpet player for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 (when he was hired for the position by Artur Rodzinski) until 2001--53 years.
According to Arnold Jacobs (the Chicago Symphony's tuba player from 1944-1988) Reiner's repeated testing of Bud Herseth while rehearsing Also Sprach ended with Bud looking at his watch and saying, "I've got until 12:30."
The Toscanini will always be my personal reference recording because it was among the very first classical LPs I bought back in the '50s when I was in high school. I thought Mussorgsky-Ravel was a person because that's the way the names appeared on the album cover.
Have this as SACD - sounds fabulous. I also love the Ormandy, which I originally bought for the George London Boris excerpts. IIRC the great Gilbert Johnson plays the beautiful trumpet solo.
This is absolutely the reference! I was fortunate in my formative years, to be exposed to a lot of these RCA recordings on budget priced LP's (Monteux's Boston Petrushka, Munch Schubert 9th,again from Boston, Reiner's Sherharazde) and their technical and artistic excellence was never in doubt
As great as those RCA/Reiner recordings were is just boggles my mind that they haven't reissued it for people who didn't have a chance to get it first time around. (That goes for the Munch box, too.)
I am very thankful to Dave to have made me discover this recording. It's been like listening to this work for the first time!The trumpets and the whole brass section is beyond words indeed. Hard to single out a picture in particular, they are all played so well, but I can not resist pointing out The Bydlo, where I could swear I hear a choir of human voices accompanying the instruments.
The Kubelik Pictures was one of the first LPs which I owned. Gramophone praised to the skies particularly for its sonics and they were indeed exceptionally clear, brilliant and spacious even on the modest Deccalian record player on which I learned to love the basic repertoire. I no longer have that disc; I foolishly gave away a lot of mono records at the advent of stereo! Bernstein's NY version was Diapason's monthly present with its April number and I listened to it with great enjoyment a couple of days ago.
Love those Reiner anecdotes! One that I haven’t heard in a while involves Bud Herseth. During a concert, Bud made some minuscule error. Afterwards, Bud came to Reiner backstage to make a clean breast of things. Reiner was unexpectedly avuncular and said, “Yes, I know. But it’s of little account. The audience didn’t notice it; the critics didn’t notice it.” But then he flashed that baleful Reiner stare and added, “Don’t let it happen again.“
This piece was one of my introductions to classical music, back when I was a child. It was a more obscure recording that I imprinted on - Royal Philharmonic/Leibowitz - because that record happened to be in the small collection that my mother had accumulated. When I got serious about collecting records myself, the Reiner/Chicago recording soon turned up. As I have collected different performances of Pictures at an Exhibition over the years, I have noticed that this one is especially prominent, so I am not surprised that Dave brought it to this series. Around the time of this recording, RCA Victor released a good number of recordings that have come to be well loved and have stood the test of time. These are some of the few classical records that are actually valuable, rather than thrift store material, in their original pressings. When I actively collected records, I always had my eye out for RCA Victor "shaded dog" Red Seal records. Now, I no longer have room for records or CDs because I live in an expensive housing market, so I have them in digital form on my hard drive. The sound quality is still fantastic, even by today's standards.
The Kubelik is, as you say, very good. The mono is surprisingly very detailed and lively, the best that technology could sound ("peak mono", let's call it). Now that it is back courtesy of Australian Eloquence, it well deserves a listen. As for Reiner, I can imagine what's in store as a reference, perhaps something by an italian composer?
This is my go to recording when showing off my stereo system. And I got to hear Herseth paly it (and lots of other things) live, which is a cherished memory.
I have several , including Ormandy and the fantastic Telarc release. Yet isn’t it great that in 1958 when the RCA Reiner was recorded, that they got it right and sounds so good today.
This is indeed a fascinating bit of discographic history. I should have been able to guess this one, however, since Reiner was excellent in interpreting so many "showpiece" works. I concur about the sound. I think pretty much all the major studios used the Ampex 300 at that time, but RCA had the money to invest in proprietary three-track equipment, and their investment paid off. Going to cue up this one later today. Thank you!
RCA made and used their own tape recorders for their recording sessions from the late 1940's up until 1955, when they started using Ampex 3 track recorders. RCA did make their own mixing consoles which they used on location during the 1950's, and they used a mix of Neumann condenser mics and their own RCA ribbon mics during the 1950's. RCA continued to use Ampex recorders in the 1960's but with increased track counts--first 4 tracks, then 8 tracks, and around 1970, 16 tracks in some sessions. Ampex dominated the U.S. market for professional audio recorders during the 1950's and '60's. In Europe it was different--Decca, DGG and Philips liked to use Studer recorders. (The Solti "Ring" was recorded on Studers.) EMI made their own machines, but that was an exception.
Very useful. Loved this piece since I was a kid and was never certain really what might be considered the primo recording since there have been so many and I've certainly heard quite a few. The first in my 7th grade music class may have been Bernstein or perhaps Stokowski, wish I could recall. The most recent purchase of it I made was Schippers' and although very recommended didn't quite give me the pictorial atmospheric nuance I was hoping for. So off to purchase the Reiner and perhaps the Ormandy as well. Many thanks!
Hi Dave, a brilliant review as always and I agree that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra’s recording is truly wonderful, especially for its time. Mussorsky’s Pictures at an Exhibition orchestrated by Ravel is probably one of my favourite pieces of classical music; it always amazes me how the composer was able to recreate the images in a musical form. I also enjoy the Berlier Philharmoniker’s 1994 version for its precision and crisp timing but that recording lacks the tonal humph. The best version for me is by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Claudio Abbado and released on Deutsche Grammophon in 1995 it offers a certain roundness and depth of sound that really triggers to my emotions. Please give it a listen, if you haven’t already done so. I was able see the LSO perform this in Brighton just before COVID affected us all - they really let rip, you could feel it your bones. Keep up the good work and all the best.
The Kubelik/CSO contributed a lot to the hifi craze of the 1950s immediately after the 78 rpm era. The reviews I've seen from the period are less enthusiastic about the actual performance, especially compared with the 1953 Toscanini. One anecdote about the effect of the Mercury recording: Guido Cantelli had already recorded it with the NBC Symphony for RCA. But in the meantime, Cantelli had heard the Mercury disc and demanded RCA record it all over again! Which they did.
I too had the Kubelik Chicago Symphony version of PICTURES on a Mercury LP. On cd, I now have Szell and Cleveland on the Sony label. What do you think, Dave of Isao Tomita's version that was made some 50 years ago on RCA? Guess it's just a novelty piece, but I enjoy listening to it once in a while. My favorite section of any recording is THE OLD CASTLE. Kind of melancholy, really gets to me. THANKS DAVE.....
I acquired my RCA CD featuring Reiner’s great “Pictures” performance way back in (I think) 1985. It’s coupled with a performance of Respighi’s “Pines of Rome” as exciting as I’ve ever heard. I’m wondering if this might be the reference recording of that other great work.
I still have a fondness for the Emerson, Lake, and Palmer adaptation of this work. Some may say this shows an appalling lack of taste on my part, but I was young, it was a powerful recording by three good musicians, and it introduced me to this wonderful music.
Since Emerson played it mainly on a toy organ (the Hammond electric organ), I’ve been wondering if classical recordings (basically a piano transcription, I think) made that were played on a real organ.
@@cartologist I used to have an LP of Arthur Wills playing the piece on Ely Cathedral's organ. I no longer have the LP but I retain fond memories of a powerful-sounding performance.
If Ormandy and Philadelphia is "unmatched by anybody anywhere," how is it not the reference recording? I remember your earlier review of the O/P PIctures (with the green booklet from a French pressing) and the rave review you gave it. That French pressing is almost impossible to find, so I am waiting for the rest of the Columbia Ormandy stereo box to be released for comparison. Reiner is fine, but not reference IMO. I still hold out for Ormandy, with Szell and Reiner tied for second place. As you say here, it is "unmatched," and I'll hold you to it!
Of course you're often leaning towards the version you hear first, if it's any good, and I still think Karajan's (from the sixties I believe) is up there among the best, but that doesn't make it a reference recording I guess..
Dave: In a recent video you mentioned that someone had commented that you talk too much, or that you ramble, etc. I completely disagree, and find that your remarks are cogent and informative. So ignore the haters, and more power to you!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Slatkin? Thompson? Hickox? Handley? Haitink.....Never mind. I suppose you did a video on RVW cycles that I missed. I'll look for it later.
I think Russian music is played the best by Russian conductors. So I consider the recording of Evgeniy Svetlanov with USSR State Symphony Orchestra the reference
Reiner/CSO is certainly a reference recording given the Hurwitz definition of "reference." Maazel/Cleveland (Telarc) had better sonics, excellent playing, nothing idiosyncratic from Maazel, and it was less driven.
For those who may not know, in the winter of 1952, Bud Herseth was driving home on a nasty winter evening when his car lost traction and hit an abutment. He hit his lower lip and teeth on the steering wheel which flattened his lower front teeth and cut his lower lip very badly. After six weeks of dental work and healing, he went back to work. The big issue was his nerves were cut and he lost feeling in his lower lip. It never phased him and he continued on playing brilliantly until he retired. .
After the accident to go over the scar tissue, he played on very large Bach mouthpieces, a 1, 1B, and 1C which is just one of the reasons his sound is so extraordinary.
Dave, this isn't just a "Reference," it's easily a candidate for the finest version ever recorded; although Ormandy's comes a very close second. Honestly, I doubt Reiner's version will ever be surpassed, and please God may it never go out of print.
I picked up a 24/96Khz download from HDTT and it is the purest version of Reiner's recording I have ever heard. The Living Stereo boys (Max Wilcox, John Pfeiffer) left a real legacy which holds up very musically into our era.
Apologies to quibble but 'purest' version? HDTT often transfer from old consumer issue tapes, and possibly many generations away from the analogue original master tape, which presumably RCA (Sony) use for their versions. HDTT I find expensive by comparison, not significantly different in sound quality with commercial issues. They are most useful for material not easily available (the Wynn Morris New Philharmonia Mahler 10th, for example, which sounds OK but not really exceptional).
@@curseofmillhaven1057 "Sourced from a 15ips 2-track tape". That's what was used for the SACD version, as well. You are welcome to your opinion as am also with mine. I agree those productions are not "all" uniformly great. I think this one is, but I force that opinion neither on you nor anyone else.
@jbbevan Thanks for replying. Absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just don't quite understand how the HDTT version is somehow 'purer' than any other release, particularly if you are saying the same tape was used for the official SACD (i'm surprised as HDTT are usually quite tight lipped about the provenance of their tapes...15ips or otherwise)? For me, the bottom line is this, I've never heard a bad mastering of this excellent recording (true, my original 1970's vinyl pressing was ropey, but that's a different story) and that's partly why it's so famous. And for me, all this tech talk, 24bit 96khz and beyond, is completely irrelevant.
Adolph “Bud” Herseth was the principal trumpet player for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra from 1948 (when he was hired for the position by Artur Rodzinski) until 2001--53 years.
53 years without a single promotion....
According to Arnold Jacobs (the Chicago Symphony's tuba player from 1944-1988) Reiner's repeated testing of Bud Herseth while rehearsing Also Sprach ended with Bud looking at his watch and saying, "I've got until 12:30."
Fabulous!
The Toscanini will always be my personal reference recording because it was among the very first classical LPs I bought back in the '50s when I was in high school. I thought Mussorgsky-Ravel was a person because that's the way the names appeared on the album cover.
Have this as SACD - sounds fabulous. I also love the Ormandy, which I originally bought for the George London Boris excerpts. IIRC the great Gilbert Johnson plays the beautiful trumpet solo.
This is absolutely the reference! I was fortunate in my formative years, to be exposed to a lot of these RCA recordings on budget priced LP's (Monteux's Boston Petrushka, Munch Schubert 9th,again from Boston, Reiner's Sherharazde) and their technical and artistic excellence was never in doubt
Thank you, Bud.
You are loved & missed ❤
YES! I have both the Kubelik and the Reiner, So much fun and so well done.
As great as those RCA/Reiner recordings were is just boggles my mind that they haven't reissued it for people who didn't have a chance to get it first time around. (That goes for the Munch box, too.)
I have a feeling they will come around. It's a matter of patience.
Many Living Stereo SACDS (including a regular stereo layer) have been available long before the big boxes
I don't actually agree
Recardo muti for me is the
The most excellent recording
With the wonderful philadelphia orchestra
@@davidmathews4524 Oh, it is very fine indeed. That one and his Firebird Suite and Rite of Spring are impressive.
I still have several Living Stereo LPs I play once in a while. "Witches Brew" orchestral pieces conducted by Gibson has a lot of lively pieces.
Much as I love Toscanini's Pictures, you can't argue with Reiner & the CSO!
Wonderful recording. Has it for many years. Also have Ancerl version with the chec Phil which is beautiful
Reiner is superb but my personal favorite is SZELL
I am very thankful to Dave to have made me discover this recording. It's been like listening to this work for the first time!The trumpets and the whole brass section is beyond words indeed. Hard to single out a picture in particular, they are all played so well, but I can not resist pointing out The Bydlo, where I could swear I hear a choir of human voices accompanying the instruments.
The Kubelik Pictures was one of the first LPs which I owned. Gramophone praised to the skies particularly for its sonics and they were indeed exceptionally clear, brilliant and spacious even on the modest Deccalian record player on which I learned to love the basic repertoire. I no longer have that disc; I foolishly gave away a lot of mono records at the advent of stereo! Bernstein's NY version was Diapason's monthly present with its April number and I listened to it with great enjoyment a couple of days ago.
Love those Reiner anecdotes! One that I haven’t heard in a while involves Bud Herseth. During a concert, Bud made some minuscule error. Afterwards, Bud came to Reiner backstage to make a clean breast of things. Reiner was unexpectedly avuncular and said, “Yes, I know. But it’s of little account. The audience didn’t notice it; the critics didn’t notice it.”
But then he flashed that baleful Reiner stare and added, “Don’t let it happen again.“
Yes, fabulous recording. But more important: Head-scratchies for Mildred.
This piece was one of my introductions to classical music, back when I was a child. It was a more obscure recording that I imprinted on - Royal Philharmonic/Leibowitz - because that record happened to be in the small collection that my mother had accumulated. When I got serious about collecting records myself, the Reiner/Chicago recording soon turned up. As I have collected different performances of Pictures at an Exhibition over the years, I have noticed that this one is especially prominent, so I am not surprised that Dave brought it to this series.
Around the time of this recording, RCA Victor released a good number of recordings that have come to be well loved and have stood the test of time. These are some of the few classical records that are actually valuable, rather than thrift store material, in their original pressings. When I actively collected records, I always had my eye out for RCA Victor "shaded dog" Red Seal records. Now, I no longer have room for records or CDs because I live in an expensive housing market, so I have them in digital form on my hard drive. The sound quality is still fantastic, even by today's standards.
Did your mother also have Leibowitz and the RPO playing Beethovens symphonies?
The Kubelik is, as you say, very good. The mono is surprisingly very detailed and lively, the best that technology could sound ("peak mono", let's call it).
Now that it is back courtesy of Australian Eloquence, it well deserves a listen.
As for Reiner, I can imagine what's in store as a reference, perhaps something by an italian composer?
Quite.
This is my go to recording when showing off my stereo system. And I got to hear Herseth paly it (and lots of other things) live, which is a cherished memory.
I have several , including Ormandy and the fantastic Telarc release. Yet isn’t it great that in 1958 when the RCA Reiner was recorded, that they got it right and sounds so good today.
This is indeed a fascinating bit of discographic history. I should have been able to guess this one, however, since Reiner was excellent in interpreting so many "showpiece" works. I concur about the sound. I think pretty much all the major studios used the Ampex 300 at that time, but RCA had the money to invest in proprietary three-track equipment, and their investment paid off. Going to cue up this one later today. Thank you!
I have to give it another listen too. And the SACD version comes with all kinds of other goodies ("Russian showpieces", if I remember correctly)
RCA made and used their own tape recorders for their recording sessions from the late 1940's up until 1955, when they started using Ampex 3 track recorders. RCA did make their own mixing consoles which they used on location during the 1950's, and they used a mix of Neumann condenser mics and their own RCA ribbon mics during the 1950's. RCA continued to use Ampex recorders in the 1960's but with increased track counts--first 4 tracks, then 8 tracks, and around 1970, 16 tracks in some sessions. Ampex dominated the U.S. market for professional audio recorders during the 1950's and '60's. In Europe it was different--Decca, DGG and Philips liked to use Studer recorders. (The Solti "Ring" was recorded on Studers.) EMI made their own machines, but that was an exception.
Great choice, Dave, and glad you highlighted how good it sounds. Am assuming it was another one of those fabulous sounding Richard Mohr productions.
Very useful. Loved this piece since I was a kid and was never certain really what might be considered the primo recording since there have been so many and I've certainly heard quite a few. The first in my 7th grade music class may have been Bernstein or perhaps Stokowski, wish I could recall. The most recent purchase of it I made was Schippers' and although very recommended didn't quite give me the pictorial atmospheric nuance I was hoping for. So off to purchase the Reiner and perhaps the Ormandy as well. Many thanks!
Hi Dave, a brilliant review as always and I agree that the Chicago Symphony Orchestra’s recording is truly wonderful, especially for its time. Mussorsky’s Pictures at an Exhibition orchestrated by Ravel is probably one of my favourite pieces of classical music; it always amazes me how the composer was able to recreate the images in a musical form. I also enjoy the Berlier Philharmoniker’s 1994 version for its precision and crisp timing but that recording lacks the tonal humph. The best version for me is by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Claudio Abbado and released on Deutsche Grammophon in 1995 it offers a certain roundness and depth of sound that really triggers to my emotions. Please give it a listen, if you haven’t already done so. I was able see the LSO perform this in Brighton just before COVID affected us all - they really let rip, you could feel it your bones. Keep up the good work and all the best.
I love the Abbado as well.
The Kubelik/CSO contributed a lot to the hifi craze of the 1950s immediately after the 78 rpm era. The reviews I've seen from the period are less enthusiastic about the actual performance, especially compared with the 1953 Toscanini.
One anecdote about the effect of the Mercury recording: Guido Cantelli had already recorded it with the NBC Symphony for RCA. But in the meantime, Cantelli had heard the Mercury disc and demanded RCA record it all over again! Which they did.
I too had the Kubelik Chicago Symphony version of PICTURES on a Mercury LP. On cd, I now have Szell and Cleveland on the Sony label. What do you think, Dave of Isao Tomita's version that was made some 50 years ago on RCA? Guess it's just a novelty piece, but I enjoy listening to it once in a while. My favorite section of any recording is THE OLD CASTLE. Kind of melancholy, really gets to me. THANKS DAVE.....
As you say, it's a novelty.
I acquired my RCA CD featuring Reiner’s great “Pictures” performance way back in (I think) 1985. It’s coupled with a performance of Respighi’s “Pines of Rome” as exciting as I’ve ever heard. I’m wondering if this might be the reference recording of that other great work.
I have a soft spot for Neeme Järvi’s version. Not to mention, it also has a great version of Scriabin’s Poem of Ecstasy.
I still have a fondness for the Emerson, Lake, and Palmer adaptation of this work. Some may say this shows an appalling lack of taste on my part, but I was young, it was a powerful recording by three good musicians, and it introduced me to this wonderful music.
I love ELP.
Since Emerson played it mainly on a toy organ (the Hammond electric organ), I’ve been wondering if classical recordings (basically a piano transcription, I think) made that were played on a real organ.
@@cartologist I used to have an LP of Arthur Wills playing the piece on Ely Cathedral's organ. I no longer have the LP but I retain fond memories of a powerful-sounding performance.
I know correction of the host is , well, less than polite. Still I believe you meant Reiner was a SADIST, not a masochist.
Yep! It pains me to admit it.
Mildred was my mother's name. She had good taste in music, as does your Mildred.
If Ormandy and Philadelphia is "unmatched by anybody anywhere," how is it not the reference recording? I remember your earlier review of the O/P PIctures (with the green booklet from a French pressing) and the rave review you gave it. That French pressing is almost impossible to find, so I am waiting for the rest of the Columbia Ormandy stereo box to be released for comparison. Reiner is fine, but not reference IMO. I still hold out for Ormandy, with Szell and Reiner tied for second place. As you say here, it is "unmatched," and I'll hold you to it!
You still don't understand what a reference recording is.
I think you meant "sadist" not "masochist" to describe Reiner. Is there a reference recording for the piano version of the piece?
Probably the Richter concert in Sofia. As famous for a notorious clunker and its cough-plagued audience as for its musical thrills.
@@markzacek237That's one of the only Richter interpretations that I prefer over others.
I was expecting Kubelik's Chicago recording, not Reiner's.
I'm glad I foiled your expectations!
Of course you're often leaning towards the version you hear first, if it's any good, and I still think Karajan's (from the sixties I believe) is up there among the best, but that doesn't make it a reference recording I guess..
No actually, I have almost never chosen as the Reference Recording a version that I've heard first. It just hasn't happened.
All the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence recordings are true treasures in sonics and show that simple is usually better.
A lot of them sound rather shrill by today's standards, although remastering has sometimes improved the sound.
@@poturbg8698 The recordings I have are mostly remastered SACD and are not shrill at all.
Bud Herseth 🙌
Dave: In a recent video you mentioned that someone had commented that you talk too much, or that you ramble, etc. I completely disagree, and find that your remarks are cogent and informative. So ignore the haters, and more power to you!
My guesses for the reference recording of the Vaughan Williams symphony cycle are: either Boult/EMI or Previn/RCA. My preference would be Boult.
There is no reference. There were only two.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Slatkin? Thompson? Hickox? Handley?
Haitink.....Never mind.
I suppose you did a video on RVW cycles that I missed. I'll look for it later.
I think Russian music is played the best by Russian conductors. So I consider the recording of Evgeniy Svetlanov with USSR State Symphony Orchestra the reference
Could it be argued that since it was orchestrated by Ravel, this is not really a Russian work?
@@cspiegs1 So requiem is not Mozart’s work, cause it was mostly written by his pupils
Came for the review, stayed for Mildred :)
❤ Mildred. More Finster!!
Reiner/CSO is certainly a reference recording given the Hurwitz definition of "reference." Maazel/Cleveland (Telarc) had better sonics, excellent playing, nothing idiosyncratic from Maazel, and it was less driven.
Dave, keep this reference recordings videos coming please. I am addicted to them !
Mildred! Good to see The Reference Cat again ;)