Jim Cornette on Shawn Michaels Or Mick Foley: Whose Style Hurt Wrestling More?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- From Episode 193 of Jim Cornette's Drive Thru
Artwork by Travis Heckel!
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"Shawn was not really a high flyer"
Thank you Jim, I fuckin love you.
This is something I have been always saying.
Yup, hes not friggin hayabusa
I disagree. He was a high flyer just not what the term has come to mean today.
He was before his singles run.
Lmao Savage did more high flying than Shawn really.
@@Cream-2128 savage didn’t do moonsaults, shawn did so many different high flying moves just look it up lol
Neither man deserves disdain. Each made wonderful contributions. It’s not their fault so many performers copied them or that so many nitwits accepted a relentless onslaught of pale, redundant imitations for years afterward.
It's not disdain, it's just calling it like it is. It's not their fault for being so great at what they did that they attracted all of these roaches but what they accomplished and how it affected their admirers did lead to the end of the equation, regardless. If you were to ask me personally, I'd say that Mick hurt it more than Shawn and I think Mick is amazing. It's just that it sucks that instead people going and doing something original for themselves, they just go and imitate someone like Mick so that they won't have to think as hard.
Those guys just wrestle with their own styles, even though mick was fan of snuka and shawn of flair you don't see those guys copying their way of wrestle like their heros..
It's just that to many marks today can't get a personality or carisma by their own and have to copy great leyends.
Facts
The “fault” is ultimately with the new crop of promoters in the 2000’s. Gone were the business minded promoters like Cornette, Roland Alexander, Thatcher, etc. The new promoters were marks who wanted to do real life fantasy booking and didn’t care how much money it cost them.
Exactly. You can’t fault people for doing stuff at a time where not EVERYONE was doing it. Now every match has to have a dive and every outta shape wrestling flunky thinks they are a hardcore wrestler.
Yeah I can't recall Shawn doing a bunch of flips. It was a lot of athleticism and basic moves that he had polished well.
The only high flying move in his regular arsenal that I recall, was the elbow drop from the top.
@@walsh9080 that and the occasional cross body
Agreed
@@charlieprince8671 And moonsault
@@walsh9080 he was doing springboard crossbody sometime at Wrestlemania. He was also doing Moonsault from the top rope too. But he was really athletic in the 90's. I remember a great crossbody to Diesel at In Your House 1996.
THIS happens ALL THE TIME in wrestling. Wrestlers, fans, and promoters try to emulate a wrestler or a company, but miss the fundamental reason WHY that person or promotion was over in the first place. CZW and XPW wanted to be like ECW, so they turned up the violence and the sex and hired a bunch of former ECW talent. That wasn't ECW. The heart of what made ECW was taking talent that might not have gotten over anywhere else and finding creative ways to make them stars. It was the "us vs. them" mentality of the locker room and the fans. People like Darby Allin and others imitate Mick Foley, but they're missing the fundamental reason WHY Foley was over in the first place - he was extremely likeable. Underneath all the blood and guts, you genuinely liked Foley and thought he was a good guy, so you wanted to see him beat people who were much better wrestlers than him. Foley's big bump at King of the Ring was what everyone remembers, but it's not why people tuned in every week.
I completely agree. I HATED XPW and never ever got into CZW. I really hate that death match style. ECW wasn’t about that. Look at some of the talent that went through ECW. Guerrero, Malenko, Benoit, Saturn, Jericho, RVD, Jerry Lynn, Super Crazy, Tajiri, Psychosis, Mysterio, etc etc. it’s not all about blood and barbed wire. Best thing about ECW was that they told stories with what they were doing. Yeah New Jack would do stupid shit and near the end Balls Mahoney and Dudley Boys used flaming tables, but when it’s every goddamn match (XPW, CZW) it doesn’t make it special. ECW was about the matches. So many amazing matches that came through ECW that had NOTHING to do with hardcore wrestling. People never see that
I see the problem as they're recruiting "athletes" who may or may not even be marks but are extremely athletic. Sean Michaels was pilled out and unpredictable and chaotic. Mick Foley? lol, his body, the risks he'd take, will never happen again. The "it" factor is gone because the entire wrestling industry has been homogenized, made corporate, and is focusing on "global expansion". They want to be "an athletic presentation" with a bunch of pro athletes that happen to like wrestling. They think athletic presentation means these guys are like the NFL where maybe once every so many plays over the year one is spectacular. No more troubled personalities. No more scandals, no more hiring any risk takers. No more entertainment.
Very well put.
I do think you are doing Darby a little dirty, though. He strikes me as more of a punk delinquent, rather than a monster with a heart like Foley was.
It's important to emphasise the comparison you made between ECW and all the companies that popped trying emulate it. And you make a great point about how they weren't smart enough to realise that ECW wasn't over because of the violence. ECW was over because from 94 to 97 they had the most well rounding best booked shows. In fact ECW was booked exactly how you would expect it to be from a man who learned from Dusty everything Dusty learned from Eddie Graham. In fact some people might be shocked to go back and compare episodes of ECW TV with old Florida tapes. The shows are structured the same. Bullshit and gaga underneath wrestling on top. ECW was never about blood and guts, extreme didn't mean just violence. Its a shame that's what people think ECW was. It wasn't. From 97 onwards it is but that's because, ironically enough, newer talent came in to replace talent that left from Wwf or WCW but they also weren't smart enough to realise Sabu and the Duds aren't over because they break tables.
I don't think Foley's sole appeal was being likeable though, if that was the case Foley wouldn't have been a good heel and he was an excellent heel. Argubly as good or better than he was as a babyface. Even as late in his career as 2006 for example; Foley's anti-ECW gimmick was excellent. *crowd chants you sold out, you sold out* Foley replies: "You're right, I sold out Maddison Square Garden". At ECW ONS 2: "ECW was once run by a true creative genius. A visionary! So let's hear it for Stephanie McMahon. Long live the alliance"
For the crap he gets about in ring skills from the workrate marks, Foley actually told stories in his matches e.g Royal Rumble I Quit match vs Rock, boiler room brawl vs Taker. Plus, Foley is one of the best promos ever. The people who imitated him don't have any of the things we've mentioned (including being very likeable).
I see where they make their correlation between Mick Foley and death matches; however, he was an amazing story teller. His bumps, although sometimes over-the-top, told a story. He wasn't getting popped with a fluorescent light tube in front of 30 people just to get them to pop. He was telling a story. Look at Royal Rumble '99 with The Rock or Royal Rumble 2000 with HHH he made those two into stars in their respective matches.
Mick didn't invent Deathmatch wrestling or even hardcore wrestling though. So even that's not fair to him.
That's exactly the point that Janela and these other methheads don't get
What story was he telling in the barbed wire exploding death matches he did in Japan?
Mick popularised a lot of shit & made it mainstream to take stupid bumps, hit each other with chair's / kendo sticks & getting slammed into thumb tacks.
What started with Mick carrying on after getting thrown off & then through the Hell in a Cell in time evolved into "no selling bumps" that the imitators of today serve up every week.
He opened the door (along with the rest of the Attitude Era) himself & others from that time did still tell stories - but it wasn't the stories anyone remembers.
The bumps were the draw & made the headlines, not the stories from that era (Al Snow & May Young giving birth to a hand?) and today's wrestlers follow that ideal.
By contrast Michael's told one of the greatest stories of all time with the Montreal Screwjob - arguably that's what he is most remembered for (Mick would be remembered for the bumps in that Hell in a Cell match).
As much as I like Muck Foley I can see a lot of people who followed came after & built on his foundations moved wrestling away from what it was before.
A bit like the Fiend building on the Undertakers supernatural elements - but in doing so also missing what really made the Undertaker great - the fact that at his foundation he was a wrestler having wrestling matches & the supernatural element was mainly saved for promo's building up matches, or specifically for the end of matches / after matches - not the feature of a match (casket matches & buried alive matches were played pretty straight as fights / matches).
Exactly, Foley is a pro wrestler first who is also willing to do the hardcore stuff. He's not a scumbag like Nick Gage.
@@M-E_123 Mick Foley's deathmatches in Japan were intended to culminate feuds. They were intended to be a blow off. Most of them took place on PPV as well, they drew money. He wasn't doing them on a random Wednesday night like Blood & Guts.
Mick could work and sell his ass off. When Undertaker threw him off the cell, and they were pulling the table pieces off of him, that was selling. If he no sold it, he would have hopped right back up and climbed the cell. Like Austin Aries did vs John Morrison on PPV.
Yes, the Attitude Era had many flaws, but Mick was not one of them. People like Rock, HHH and Undertaker needed opponents to work with and Foley answered the bell. That's why they all talk kindly of him today - unlike Michaels. The giving birth to the hand angle was bad, but you can't put that on Mick because he wasn't apart of the creative team at that time.
Michael’s style actually evolved wrestling and performance. It’s not his fault that it attracted a bunch of no talent, sloppy performers. The leg slapping was not prevalent with Shawn either until his later years when he would actually do it. But by that time, everyone was doing that anyway.
They didn't ruin wrestling, their poor imitations did
That’s the point of the question. It’s not that Mick or Shawn’s styles destroyed the business. It’s which one’s style inadvertently led to a lot of negatives in wrestling today where too many “wrestlers” are just trying to copy the style without the substance behind it.
@@presidentskroob Exactly
This!
Ooooooooohhhhhhh shit 🤯🤯🤯 I didn't know it like that.....U mean like "the fiend" using the mandible claw & literally EVERYONE having some sort of "super kick" as their move......🤣🤣 then shawn ruined it
This but that's kinda of the point of the question tho. They started it so...
HBks style is amazing. His attitude hurt wrestling. Micks style hurt wrestling but his attitude strengthened it
True
Fair.
Very well said
I’ve seen mick have good wrestling matches-
Not every mick match was hardcore death match stuff
Shawns attitude sucked.
Mick Foley was good until he started feeding into his later years ego.
Shawn's style "ruined Wrestling"? Stop that nonsense. Shawn made the 90's WWF product exciting. He, and Bret carried 90's WWF.
I don't disagree. Except that Michaels could be a perfect wrestler and still the people trying to imitate him (badly because they aren't him) could be responsible for a trend that "ruins" wrestling.
@@NoMercy888 nope, that's on THEM for being (bad) imitators.
@ Anthony Clark Agreed! Bret & Shawn were the peanut butter & jelly of the New Generation Era 93-97.
@@anthonyclark9441 Right, it's no fault of Shawn's. However his influence may have unintentionally had negative consequences through no wrong doing of his. Personally I don't think bad Shawn Michaels impersonations solely ruined wrestling. I would say people trying to imitate the Rock's humour without being as charismatic, funny, or over has been a negative influence on modern day wrestling.
Shawn definitely ruined it because no one was selling as ridiculous as he was until The Rock came onto the scene.
My goodness. That's how good of a performer Shawn is. He's too good that you can't even believe it.
Shawn might of leg slapped but you couldn’t even tell.
You could, even as a kid I noticed it. Leg slaps don’t really take me out of the action though. It’s just nonsense.
Michaels didn't do it 25 times a match like most of the current generation of wrestlers
BS you had to be blind
@@wesleymorris2699 this is the comment that sums it up perfectly. He hit the sweet chin music once per match, that’s when he leg slapped and it was a true finisher. Now every wrestler on a card does a superkick and does it multiple times per match. Moves just lose their luster
@@metalhead95123 He started doing it more than once when he returned in 2000s
I never once saw Michaels slapping his leg. That's how damn good he was.
These kind of questions come from the same people who constantly use the phrase: "never drew a dime."
It's the people that use wrestling terms that they don't truly know what they mean.. For example: jobber or bury.. It could also be the people that believes every wrestler deserves a run with the world championship
Exactly, fans talking like promoters, just because they listen to Corny are just obnoxious
@@sonybluraydisk you're only saying that because you never drew a dime!
Shawn had an amazing presence about him though. Never once saw him toe to toe with someone and thought, "That's a high flyer/cruiserweight."
Like when he would go against Vader and undertaker, you believed shawn could hold his own and hang with the super heavyweights.
@@brandocalrissian3294 Def. a rare ability!
I don’t think HBK affected high flying as much as he affected gratuitous superkicking. Not his fault though that his finisher became bastardized. Can you imagine if every match had multiple stunners that finished no one?
So a kevin oinkins match?
@@whynotbrosay slippery slope..
The Bucks destroyed the Super Kick.
He didn’t hell Snuka and Savage could be credited more for that.
Member the DDT? I member...
"Good God Almighty. Good God Almighty. They’ve killed him. As God is my witness. He is broken in half" - Jim Ross
They’ve killed him *
@James bah gawd almighty, he has a family
I've always preferred JR's call on the bump through the top of the cage. It wasn't so much a call as it was a plea for Mick Foley's wellbeing.
"SOMEBODY STOP THE DAMN MATCH!"
Will somebody stop the damn match!! Enough is enough !!! The man has a family 💙
I had heard Jim Ross and Lawler did not know about that spot off the cell so the reaction was real. My question, given that being true, did he mean the company when he said "they". I wonder if he really thought Foley was legitimately done with as far as career.
Mick’s style of wrestling will not only have your body recovering but his body as well
Mostly his
Can't tell you how many times i misread this comment 😂😂
Back when Moxley first came to OVW he wanted to a storyline with Foley about this exact thing, blaming him for influencing a generation of kids, like himself, to put their bodies through such wreckage to be wrestlers. Would have been really interesting but it never happened.
Shawn Michaels was like Steph Curry. It is isn't his fault that people trying to do what he did aren't nowhere near as good as him and started becoming a parody
Storytelling in the ring is just about all but gone. Now it's a foot race to the next high spot that 9x out of 10 the guy usually no sells.
Then when you say this nerd indy fans have a heart attack.
Nailed it!
@@kingsosa2481 John Cena stop selling moves since 2007.. Especially Finishers.. Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior didn't even sell moves but you Corporation Babies act like that didn't hurt Pro Wrestling neither...
@@kenrickkahn that ALSO hurts the business. Both things are allowed to be true
@@kenrickkahn you cant be serious? Tell me youre trolling or do i have to explain the difference between two megastars no selling in a marque main event vs midcarders no selling finishers on dynamite
Shawn michaels could still tell a story in the ring and he didn't do as many high spots as people think. He just did an elbow drop and a couple of suicide dives. He also did that occasional skin the cat thing but so what
Exactly, Hbk would do crazy stuff in big matches. His matches on Raw he scaled back on bumps and crazy stuff and had a more mat based style.
Compared to today, Shawn's style would be considered boring. I thought he was the most exciting wrestler I'd ever seen when I was a kid
@@Bandana_Boi todays wrestling is just gymnastics...Shawn was better on putting good matches and storytelling rather than gymnastics...
Moonsault?
Springboard moonsault?
Imagine what a 97 HBK vs Mankind Hell in a Cell match could have been...
I think I just came in my pants. What a thought.
Lol Shawn Michaels was so good that Jim Cornette is complaining about perfection 😂
The difference is Mick had to do the crazy stuff in the 80's and 90's to get noticed because WWF and WCW weren't really interested. Cornette has mentioned how they had to backdoor Cactus Jack into a push because Flair didn't like him. Shawn did what he did because he was smaller than everyone and at least it looked good for a while.
I think Mick's problem was he wasn't a handsome or menacing looking guy. If they had actually looked deeper into Mick's work in those days, or talked to him like Corny or JR did, they'd see how smart he was, how great he was for ideas on matches and storylines, and that he could cut a dynamite promo. However, in those days, they'd spend about 4 seconds on him and go, "Nahh, doesn't look right." and move on. So Mick had to get noticed in other ways unfortunately.
Also Ric Flair is a moron. Guy was a great wrestler, but just garbage at everything outside the ropes, including just being a decent human being.
The Smackdown games did more damage than either of them. The endless spots with no selling and 10 kick outs after finishers is pure videogame bullshit.
I'm pretty sure for the old video games, No Mercy, HCTP, and SSYM, unless it was something crazy like a last man standing match, you could never kick out of a finish
It’s a video game ffs.
They were doing that in the Attitude Era tho...
The games didn’t do the damage haha it’s the people who brought video game wrestling into the real ring who did the damage.
And you couldn’t kick out of finishers in the old games. You could MAYBE do it once, but even that was rare.
Mike West
WCW nWo Revenge says hello. As well as WCW Backstage Assault. The latter is even worse though but Revenge came first by 2 years.
Shawn Michaels vs Mankind at IYH Mindgames 😘👌
Fucking epic match.
That would be a great match for Jim and Brian to watch. I'm sure Cornette could give us some insight since he was in the building.
It's worth noting that the infamous Cactus/Funk death match took place in front of almost 30,000 people. I'm not a fan of that style of wrestling, but at least they were doing it in an environment where they were actually drawing money. Mick himself has said it's stupid to take those kinds of risks in front of small crowds for no money and that he considers it "questionable" in front of large crowds.
Mick was also competing with body building physics, and despite his tremendous work, he needed to counter those issues, and he would often steal the show.
Physique
Growing up in the late 90s/early 2000s watching Mick Foley and Shawn Michaels was awesome
People forget what truly made Shawn Michaels one of the best.
His ability to sell.
His match against Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania is a great example of that.
My favourite selling was the Hogan match 😂
Shawn Michaels gave birth to guys like Dolph Ziggler and Mick Foley gave birth to Promotions like CZW ... 👀
ECW gave birth to promotions like czw might as well say Paul E is as responsible
Id say zigglers closer to curt hennig and flair
I've said this a million times but if modern wrestlers had been more inspired by Bret rather than Shawn, the industry would be in a much better place overall.
Agreed x 1,000,000.
I agree
Preach! Amen man.
Brian Last said that, not you!
@@mamalama7204 no, I truly believe this.
Bret was always consistently more over with more drawing power than Shawn. This is despite constantly having shit booking where Mcmahon would essentially make him look like a goon in exchange for the latest flavor of the week (Hogan, Lex, Diesel, Shawn)
Not to mention that while Shawn's style of "look at me" selling makes him look great, Shawn had plenty of matches were he made the other guy look bad or an afterthought even when in the moments he wasn't directly trying to do so.
Bret's style on the other hand elevated anyone he stepped in the ring with. That had the effect of firstly, popping dead crowds pretty much on every show he works in the 90's, and secondly, making other talent more compelling to the audience.
You don't get Steve Austin without Bret's style of matches, character work, and selling. Despite the narrative, Austin didn't suddenly become a megastar from one great promo. In reality he worked a multi-year program with Bret, in which he lost every match, and came out the one of the biggest wrestlers in history.
I’m sorry but that’s like blaming Kiss for Gwar
That’s so great
Except GWAR is more talented than KISS lol
Totally disagree with the Emailer about Michaels. I would personally wouldn't put today's junk on Michaels. I think Lucha, Hardcore, and some Japanese stuff is to blame lol.
That's a fair opinion
It's more FMW, DDT and NJPW than Michaels.
But Lucha and Japanese style is the style that is popular in Mexico and Japan. Wrestling is still and was far more popular in those countries than here. So don't blame the style, blame who is booking and the lack of good story telling.
@@fayerson a lot of lucha is worse than aew as far as ridiculous bullshit
@@fayerson you missed the point I think. The booker isn't telling them to do every move in a book. Doing dumb moves and "strong style". The Emailer made it seem like Michaels was flying all over the place when he wasn't.
"Light tube, barbed wire, broken glass bullshit"
How can you not love Cornette LOL
Mick didn't ruin shit!
That man gave blood to put asses in seats!
Fan of both, but yeah...probably Mick's hurt it more.
If anyone is responsible for the “extreme” wrestling that occurred in the 90s and 00s, it’s probably The Sheik.
Or Blassie.
Or WWC in Puerto Rico.
I mean how about the first guy that came out on steroids? The first giant? The first DDs flashed on camera? First cage match? First person who bladed? Any or all of these people ruined wrestling if that’s how you want to see it. They did what they were great at, both of them blessed the business.
Asking this question is like asking if Picasso ruined the art world.
I don't necessarily think discussing who inspired more awful workers is downplaying the greatness of said inspirations.
Shawn is what got me back into wresting after Crockett went under
RIP
Hating on Shawn because he's too damn good
I think what was worse about Shawn Michaels was the way he sold. It was over the top and drew focus away from his opponent's offence to make himself the centre of attention. It is possible to sell without hamming it up.
And the hardcore style is and will always be bullshit. Wrestling was reduced to 15 chair shots, 3 table spots and a whole lot of blood every match.
I'm so happy I got to meet Mick Foley a couple years back. I have a photo of me holding a barbed wire bat against his head while he's apparently screaming in pain and I'm pretty much roaring into the camera. Also doesn't hurt that he lived out in Long Island near my relatives back in the day.
Steamboats selling was realistic, look how he sells Rick Rude putting his knees up in the corner in their 30 min Ironman match.
He was very good and is now very underrated.
What difference does it make what Foley or Michaels did as their style? They didn't tell anyone to imitate them.
Jim is right, again. Terry Gordy took a great "Ray Stevens turnbuckle bump".Watch the Freebirds vs.the Von Erichs strap match.
Terry wasn't from Amarillo, he was from Hammond, IN. I was at his "retirement" match 20 years ago in Hammond, it was 20 minutes from where I grew up.
Neither, both guys could wrestle, entertain, cut great promos and get people to care about them. Don’t blame them because the wrestlers these days can’t get over at a high level.
Everyone in wrestling sucks after 97, when he left the WWF, and admittedly stopped watching wrestling regularly.
The thing about Shawn Michaels and Mick Foley was that they weren't just doing bumps and spots for the sake of hitting bumps and spots, they were telling a story with them. There was a psychology to them, they built to them, had a reason for them.
Honestly, the person I think is most responsible for any problems with the modern style of wrestling is Rob Van Dam. He was the first person I can think of who ever got really over by hitting spots simply for the sake of hitting spots and never really grasped storytelling or ring psychology.
Yeah I remember my first RVD match, vs. Scorpio at some ECW PPV from '97. They were just showing off, a string of big moves and finally one of them worked.
Interesting i never thought about that w/RVD
RVD gets a pass cos you gotta be incredibly talented to pull that shit off w/o killing yourself and/or the other in the process. Just as KO, Lee, and other big men get theirs' for performing high risk maneuvers. It's part of their identity as wrestlers. But if all you can do are spotfests then you failed as a wrestler albeit can be succeeding as a sports entertainer.
Prior to RVD, there was Sabu. Sabu VS Scorpio (in a mask) was spots and talking to each other
@@juicyfruit6311 I'm not saying there weren't spotfests before RVD. What I'm saying is that RVD was the first pure spotfest guy who was a top level star in a major wrestling promotion who's popularity at one point rivaled Steve Austin and The Rock. Sabu inspired a couple of followers, RVD inspired an entire generation of indy workers.
"Too pretty and precise." From the guy that managed Bobby Eaton...
Heaven forbid he says something negative about Bobby Eaton his lord and saviour
My biggest complaint about Shawn is that his default match was to take an ass whipping for 20-30 minutes, lay around and sell a lot, then comeback flying forearm superkick 1 2 3. It really shit on his opponents how he would turn it around and win so easily.
My biggest complaint about Cactus Jack is that he sold and bumped too much. He didn't go on the attack nearly enough. It was like watching Battlin' Homer sometimes.
"Shawn was my inspiration for high flying in WWE"
Rey Mysterio: Am I a joke to you?
Emailer is way off. The only thigh slapping Shawn did was with one move and that was to perfection. Nothing he did in the ring hurt the business imo, barring maybe the Hogan match lol.
The person who asked that question is clearly utterly clueless about wrestling, and I don't care if they read this comment. His style was NOT a high flying style. When he was part of the Rockers, yes, but not as a singles wrestler. And just because he slapped his thigh with the superkick, does not give him blame for the rubbish thigh slapping these days. In the 90s there were loads of people doing thigh slapping, and most of them did it much worse than he did. Likewise, Foley was a stuntman for sure, BUT, he could also tell a story in the ring and could pace a match and make it make sense without all of the gimmicks and frills. Neither of them fundamentally hurt the business even slightly.
I know Jim isn’t fond of grunge, but to me both Shawn and Mick are like grunge. Good music that was poorly imitated by people who didn’t understand what made it good.
IMO Shawn bears more of the blame for who and what he inspired than Foley does with his. In the first place, ECW and the Japanese deathmatch scene were more responsible for the modern garbage wrestling scene than Foley, hell I'd toss the Hardys in there too before Foley. But Shawn not only inspired the flippy floppy high flying high risk style but also the Kliq-isms being aped by the Bullet Club and the Elite.
No other wrestler gave the impression of actually being a lunatic who loved being abused. Mick didn't have a style, it was a mind frame.
Sorry, but “lunatic who loved being abused” was micks gimmick.
@@mikemck4796 exactly my point, nobody else has done it convincingly
Mr Wrestlermaina ruined wrestling?? When Jim's only knock is he was too perfect that's all you need to know.
I think it's impossible to fault these guys for guys today only caring about moves and false finishes. Wrestlers today mostly had to learn on the indy scene. Wrestlers today largely never got to learn fundamentals. That's not Mick Foley's fault. It's not their fault kids only saw one aspect of what they did.
Without the Rock and Roll Express and the Fantastics, the Rockers don't exist.
I'd say Mick Foley, because he had a very unassuming body type and a lot of people watching thought "well if he can do it so can I" without realizing Mick spent a decade learning psychology and promo skills before he fell off the Cell
Shawn’s back room politicking hurt wrestling more than anything
mick and michaels two all time legends
I would say neither did, it's the fault of those who came after them who only saw the moves instead of the psychology behind them. Michaels did some high-flying moves. He also made other wrestlers look superhuman the way he would take a backdrop. Mick did hardcore. He also build up to where he would do his high spots and drew more money by pulling out a dirty sock from underneath his pants than any time he got set on fire. But the imitators screwed all forms of wrestling up because they just do the moves without any thought process going on.
The bucks have imitated SM attitude from the 90s😆🤣😂
I'd say Foley's style was more detrimental due to creating and popularizing hardcore style. It also seems that every other cell/cage match has some variation of getting thrown off or through the cage/cell
Eddie Guerrero vs HBK was a dream match that never happened. If Bret Hart was Mexican, he’d be Guerrero.
I feel bad for Foley, I've read him talk about how even in retirement his pain can get pretty bad so that he has to go to his "Christmas room" to distract himself. Even if I did enjoy Foley's big bumps you can't say they were worth what he has to go through now.
As for Michaels, it's interesting 'cause Cornette talks about Shawn like he was the best wrestler ever and also the biggest arsehole in wrestling ever. I think as Shawn got bigger and bigger, his inflated ego would show in his matches and for some that helped the matches and for others hurt them. Bret Hart has shared an interesting opinion of Shawn's changes over his career, he said before their main event at Survivor Series '92 Shawn admitted to him that he lacked preparedness and asked Bret to carry the match. I do think that match is more of a Bret match than a Shawn match, but Shawn certainly "got all his shit in" as they say. But Bret said at that point Shawn lacked confidence(understandably, he'd only just won his first IC belt, had never been in a PPV main event) and that in '97 when Shawn's "arsehole level" was perhaps highest, Bret says Shawn's matches were better i.e. his ego fueled his performing and produced better matches. Anyone who's listened to Bret talk knows his opinion is similar to Corny's Shawn was a real arsehole, but great in the ring. But Bret has also said that some of Shawn's stuff looked hokey e.g. the "skin the cat" move where you get thrown out of the ring, but catch the top rope and pull/back-flip back in. Bret said Shawn insisted on having that in their WM XII match and when he watched it back thought it was the stupidest part of the match.
I thank God everyday for Mick Foley
Thank God that he's still alive?
@@AndrewNewZealand that too
I wouldn't blame it on just Foley's influence since his use of hardcore wasn't frivolous. I would point out all the useless hardcore matches being done in WWF/WCW from 1999-2001 that just pumped them out with backstage brawls, hardcore belts, and goofy comedy.
Shawn wasn’t a high flyer. He did a few spots but the guy could actually pile drive the Undertaker back in 1997
Devastating pile driver.
Foley's style hurt the business more because it inspired generations of wrestlers to almost literally fight to the death
I think you can trace more of the high flying bullshit to the Lucha guys coming into WCW in the 1990's...they brought tht high flying, co-operative gymnastics style to a wider audience. Foley?....he had the most famous "car crash" moment at Hell in the Cell, but there were a lot of guys doing stunts as dangerous if not moreso in national promotions like WCW and especially ECW
Steve Austins WHAT
Mick is alright Shawn Michaels is the goat though
It's Mick. Shawn wasnt much of a high flyer, he could wrestle. Thing is the kids choose not to imitate his tecnical wrestling.
Cross body, Head Scissors, Dives to the outside, Flying Elbow Drop and Hurricanrana ... Shawn Michaels was a high flyer the only difference is he used psychology.. still a douchebag though..
@@kenrickkahn His style was lucha libre mixed with goofy southern wrestling mixed with classic NWA-showcase-wrestling.
@@kenrickkahn BINGO!!!! That's the point Cornette was making. BUT u framed it EVEN BETTER than Corny did. HBK was such a complete wrestler in terms of overall skillset. And his psychology was off the hook. So Shawn DIDN'T FLY JUST TO FLY! HBK wasn't cramming in a ton of aerial moves just to cram them in. BUT he was such a great athlete he EASILY COULD HAVE though! In the 80's, guys like Savage and Steamboat were similar.
HBK EVOLVED what those guys did in the 90's. So I agree HBK FLEW ENOUGH to be considered a high flyer. BUT he was so great in the ring labeling him MERELY a high flyer wouldn't do him justice. The same would apply for guys like a Savage, Steamboat, and Bobby Eaton before him. Or guys after him like Jericho, Eddie, AJ, Rollins, Balor, etc.
Thanks Jim. and Brian for great high flying podcast
The problem with Mick Foley and Terry Funk isn’t their popularizing hardcore matches; it’s that they were entertaining performers who could work and happened to be in those type of matches.
Mick has an ecw promo aimed at Tommy Dreamer "Problem with being hardcore" that proves your point, if your willing to you should check it out
The whole storyline of Mick Foley denouncing hard-core and changing his in ring style in ECW 95 was brilliant, saying it was too late for him and apologising to uncle Eric whilst trying to get through to Dreamer.
Moxley actually reminds me of Foley. Both can cut really good promo's and love that hardcore shit.
The difference being that as soon as that bell rings Moxley pretty much loses all credibility he built up by having a bad garbage match, while Foley has had so many great matches even after he "retired" regardless of if they were garbage matches or not.
Moxley is missing the storytelling that Foley perfected and tries to emulate a combo of Foley and Steve Austin when he should really be trying to be his own thing.
Yeah. Moxley is mostly uninspiring.
You havent even watched any of Mox's matches except highlights lol
Back when Funk and Foley ("Is that Fuckin Foley in here?" Insepctor Todd from Beverly Hills Cop) where having their death matches they were the only ones on the card doing that. What gets boring is when everybody does the same $#!+. If everybody wrestled like Ric Flair or Macho Man that too would be boring about 4th or 5th match in.
Jim that upside down bump HBK took at wrestlemania 14 definitely wasn't pretty
Well he was probably talking about healthy HBK, his back problems certainly complicated things at that point.
The wrestlers do what the bookers and promoters tell them to do. Period. Neither wrestler ruin wrestling....Vince McMahon ruined wrestling.
Their imitators have ruined the product because they miss the fundamental reasons why HBK & Cactus did what they did.
That match against Hulk Hogan at Summerslam 05 though 😂
Sissy boy michaels was a disgrace in his overselling antics. That BS was disrespectful to fellow wrestlers and the fans. Yeah, he COULD have been good to wrestle against, if you were his buddy. HB(only-o)K
Shawn was the TOTAL PACKAGE in the ring!! HBK used his technical skills, ground athletic game and brawling to SET UP his great aerial game. So he had a great AERIAL GAME in his arsenal. BUT he didn't rely on it solely to PROPEL him to the main events.
When I think of guys who NEEDED to rely on great aerial ability to be a main eventer, I think guys like Rey Mysterio. Because Rey was so small it was LITERALLY his only way to overcome the larger opponents. HBK was like a Savage or Steamboat. AWESOME athletes who could do it ALL in the ring. When they chose to use their great aerial game, it was at the PERFECT TIME to do them. WHERE it was believable!
HBK just took what Savage or Steamboat did and MODERNIZE it in the 90's once he hit the singles scene. But let's face it the guys like Savage and HBK were the pretty much the START of the new age total package. Guys who could be elite technicians, have main event IT factor, be great on the mic, and are great in the air. Plus both could be great as a face or heel.
So was HBK MERELY a high flyer?? NO. Because he was so complete in the ring. BUT that element aerial element was HANDS DOWN was in his arsenal! Just like MJ on the court. OF COURSE MJ was a high flying dunking machine. BUT what makes him the GOAT is the great ALL AROUND ability he has on the court. U can look at HBK the same way in the ring!
I used to watch stuff like FMW, IWA Japan, WING, etc. but stuff like CZW and GCW is just plain stupid.
I couldn’t believe Shawn Michaels as a heavyweight wrestler. Didn’t look like a fight was happening. It looked like a performance and he didn’t look tough at all. I didn’t buy any of it.
No part of me believed he’d really hang in there with Sid for 3 minutes, for example.
I couldn’t suspend my disbelief.
Compared to the 5'9 twigs out there now, Shawn looks like Andre the Giant.
Facts!!
Ppffffftttt! Get the f*** outta here.
I don't know why Jim refused to make that connection when talking about how clean and perfect his shit looked. People setting themselves up and waiting for his spots cause he has to look good and perfect above all else. That makes it look faker, choreographed, and like a cooperate performance. The thigh slaps, refusing to lose, overselling cause he was throwing a tantrum. Losing his smile, the Garden.
Can’t make a heavyweight champion of one half of the Rockers, who were routinely squashed by larger wrestlers.
This is the same guy who was destroyed by all the heavyweights like Akem & Bossman, Demolition, etc.
Ultimate Warrior tossed him from the 1990 Royal Rumble like he was a piece of shit...and suddenly he’s beating Vader and Sid?!? No way.
I don't think either of these guys can be blamed for the actions of their imitators.
What a stupid question. Neither guy hurt wrestling. There would be no wrestling promotion anywhere in the world in business today if styles didn’t evolve. Here is some breaking news that Cornette and many of his fans don’t understand. It isn’t 1975 anymore! Doing the same 1970’s and 80’s style would have put the entire industry out of business 20 years ago
By this logic you would also have to blame Shawn Michaels for the WWE’s overuse of Hell in a Cell and the ladder match to the point where they no longer have any meaningful impact.
Exactly, he along with taker and razor did such amazing work in those matches that 30 years later wrestlers are still trying to imitate it
Great artwork Travis
If you blame Mick and Shawn for all the wannabes they inspired, then youd have to extend that blame to who inspired Mick and Shawn. Probably Bruiser Brody and Ric Flair.
Look at mick now. Mick sacrificed a shit load then michaels. Title was given to Shawn also by Vince old Shawn wasn’t even that good to old mick. Mick took chair shots while being handcuffed. Shawn didn’t have to prove to much to Vince. But mick sure as hell did
No doubt that HBK is at least a top 3 guy as far as in ring performance.
Tbh Ric Flair said it best. He was a human car crash. 😅
Hbk is actually good tho lol what do these kids no about wrestling nothing