My father took a Ford v8 And made it a 4 cylinder. Years later when the engine wore out . He swapped out the other 4 cylinders and off we went......!!!!
This is the old guy that shows up in a beater car at the races with an engine that looks like it came out of a junkyard and runs circles around everybody.
lol no, don;t let those old guy in their garages holding beer standing out a Chevy 350 V8 that they repainted and put new gaskets on trick you into thinking "it's 500 HP!" No...
Saaaame XD I seen the head and was like so this dudes big time engine builder coukdnt he totally just build a custom V6 but as I've been watching yeah I should sit down and shut the fuck up and maybe I'll learn a thing or 2 XD
Ok they are nice numbers and its a cool idea, but i'm a bit confused when he says he couldnt get the valve area out of an existing v8 and that exhisting v6's vibrate more than this thing. Also whats this about compression? You would think an engine builder would be able to have exactly whatever compression he wants out of any platform Methinks he just decided a nascar engine already has everything done to it and was the easiest option for this application just to blank off two cylinders. Which is a cool idea but he doesnt have to bullshit about it lol.
@@m.b.82 So the devil's in the details. You need valve reliefs to not compromise cam timing and NASCAR heads have about the smallest practical combustion chamber in the head for something that flows. So that's about what you can get without going to a clean sheet of paper purpose built 4 valve per cylinder sorta thing.
M. B. The comment about vibrations of existing v6’s has to do with the degrees of separation between ignition of each cylinder in a v8 vs a v6 (a v8 has a cylinder firing every 45 degrees instead of every 60 degrees), even though they eliminated two cylinders they kept the same crank spacing of a v8 and used counterweights to balance the shaft. Through the unique setup they got the smooth running of a v8 which is nicer on other drivetrain components and the benefits of extra stroke of the v6 while staying within the max displacement rules for the class they are running. They chose the nascar engine because it’s highly developed and can get great power at high rpm reliably which saves them enough time and money on development. Ironically the fact that they didn’t change the firing order and crankshaft spacing is also why it sounds a bit like a Harley motor and a V8 got mashed together!
Kieth dorten is a genius. The way he eliminated those rear 2 cyl without any problems and got the horsepower and RPM is just insane. Great job. WOW!!!!!!
This is just about the closest to old school invention meets proper modern engine technology. I can only hope that some young folks will appreciate the talent and experience this man possesses. What a legend!
We all understand it and how it would work basically. Instead is big government you have smaller government. There that’s how it’s supposed to be problem is government doesn’t want to be smaller so you know... problems 😂😂
Great build Mr. Dorton, we met years ago and I have never forgotten. I left the V8 world of Engine Building for 2 wheels, mainly Harley Davidson. For those who don't know, this man's pure genius, like the late great Smokey, but without the language. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
I have yet to met Keith but my neighbor is one of the members of the hot rod hoodlums race team. From what I hear he is one of last great engine hot rodders.
No he isn't. This build, makes no sense. His entire reasoning is flawed by the fact that, since the late 1980, there are engines that have extremely short stroke and upwards of 13 to 1 compression. I mean road going bikes combine sub 50mm strokes and up to 14.5 to 1 compression. (Yes I know Harleys do not but I'm referring to bikes actual modern engines not 1930s fossils)
@@TheNecromancer6666 u are missing something fundamental. Educate yourself and rethink. Reasoning is NOT flawed for that spesific USE. Why u think hes engine is succesful ? ratio or pressure btw?
Good luck at Bonneville. I'm headed out for Speed Week as well. That is one of the things I love most about Bonneville is just all the weird stuff you see. I remember my first year going to Speed Week, someone was running a streamliner with a blown Hemi in it, except 1 whole bank of cylinders was missing, and they were running it as a 4 cylinder. 2 friends of mine run a coupe with a Model A flathead in it that has a DOHC conversion he built in his garage, casting and everything.
Always thought Bonneville was THE last place on earth where creativity ruled. This build is a great example of that. Expensive? Yes, but horsepower is never cheap! Very innovative!
man, that thing is radical! 30 some years ago our auto shop teacher was working on a 4 cyl. small block chevy for Bonneville, i believe it ran at least once. they had an old Studebaker. thanks for the memories. i think i may still have one of the cams.
Do you know about 12 years ago I was heavily into off-road racing out in California and we had acquired a couple Busch Series V6 Ford motors it was crazy the amount of horsepower that does V6 has had
I just love innovative ideas like this! Very interesting concepts here that REALLY WORK! Most impressive indeed! It's amazing how much it still sounds like a high-winding V8.
Wow! The man is a genius!! He's got every trick in the book in that engine! I often wondered what a SB2 looked like in the inside and now I know why those NASCAR engines live at 9,000 rpm for 500+ miles!!
When I saw the Dyno figures I was like "600 Hp? what's the hype?" And then he reminded me this was Carb N/A.. Then my jaw dropped.. 😅 That's a little monster.
I cut my eye teeth building SBC; you can gauge my thoughts about this video by how many times I said, "Jesus Christ!", while watching. The count? I lost track, (didn't want to take my shoes off! LOL) I was fortunate enough to have a drag racing mentor when I was in my teens. He'd built a national record holding car in the early '60's. The first thing he taught me was block and head prep, pre porting & blueprinting. I looked at this sweet SB, knowing just how many hours it takes to make one look like that. Had to laugh, though, the builder didn't want to give up the cam specs, but I do believe you gave enough info talking about the valve train, a guy could back calc the lift, if not the duration.... ooops... LOL Very impressive V-6, starting with a very impressive V8. Never paid much attention to Nascar, but I will spend some time learning about these SB2's, after watching this. Thanks... you picked up another sub. Keep up the great vids... GeoD
There are some great conversation going one here! That's why I enjoy being a part of the race enthusiast's crowd. We can argue and bicker at each other about bob weight and compression ratios until our faces are red, then at the end of the day sit down and enjoy a cold beer together!
Benefit of competing in land speed events vs. drag racing/RR: No need to shave off ounces from every component. Many cars even have ballast made from lead or tungsten because getting CG low enough and into harmony with the center of drag is more important than increased mass.
W O W ! ! ! A simple answer to getting round the length of stroke, to up the compression it is N O T ! This is a highly complicated build! Very well thought out and executed. A paradoxical approach to building a V6. To get past the limitations set out!! Got to take your hat of to this engine and its builder!! Yet again a excellent build video! And a brilliant way of tackling a problem!!
I believe Mickey Thompson also ran a four cylinder version of a Pontiac 389 in the early '60, one side of the V, at drag races and Bonneville. That also was the engine in the original Tempest compact at the time (and why drag racers put in the full V8 in them, and eventually that's how the Pontiac GTO grew out of the Tempest.)
It is amazing how little valve spring pressure is being run nowadays thanks to Spintron testing actually showing what is happening on the top end of the motor. I mean 160 on the seat and 600 over the nose is nothing for a 270 @0.050" and 0.800" lift cam! Not to mention the 1/2" thick wall pushrods (I know pushrod weight is supposedly inconsequential but it has to add SOME weight/rpm loss to the valvetrain) Amazing stuff. SB2 & 2.2 is just so freaking cool! Now show us some R07 stuff Keith and Randy!!
I have almost all the parts to build my oddfire (commonpin crank)4-bolt main 4.3 V6 and this just gave me more enthusiasm. Mine won't even be smooth but for drag racing, it will be ok
The weight isn't going to be to hard to work out it would be the same as the bob weight used when balancing the engine 50% of the reciprocating mass and 100% of the rotating mass. Not a big secret it is how any crossplane V8 crankshaft is balanced.
trillrif axegrindor yes I watch the fucking video... it’s a 8 cylinder with 2 pistons missing... they even call a v6 so go be an asshole somewhere else
Dave Micolichek a punk? I’ve never been called a punk! I’m 55, I build race engines... and when someone is being an ass I’ll cuss the crap out of them! All I ever did was say I thought this was cool... not my thing but cool! If anyone’s being a “punk” it’s sure not me! Asshole maybe, prick sometimes, a jerk most times and always opinionated! But punk?! We must have a different definition of punk! Just just go pound sand! I have engines to build and shit to do! I’m done with this stupid shit!
Love this story. I' watching a Jeremy Hacking run a V6 Syclone 1/4 mile at 185 mph and 7.59 sec. single turbo. I have always had a thing for 6 cylinder engines. NASCAR technology would be so amazing to learn. I once saw 1960's GM V6 Big Block it was made for the half ton. Its Just awesome what is Possible.
one thing i dont understand, is how much power IS being lost int he spark delay? firing 8 plugs but only running 6 means there is a 2 spark delay, timing is correct but i would think that a ECU controlled spark would be best. its just one thing im not understanding here, results speaks for its self thought. Love it
Very cool! Im not a Nascar guy but I knew a few drag racers that got their hands on some SB2 stuff and it was impressive! Kinda odd he's still using a V8 header.
They are just dyno headers. You can tell by the o2 port in each runner. And I would say the ones that go in the Landspeed car would hug the block alot more for packaging in the streamlined bodywork.
@@MJTAUTOMOTIVE I just meant it was odd from the aspect that its got the firing impulse of the V6 but its merging into a 4:1 collector with a dead hole. It would be reasonable to believe it might gain a little bit of performance with a proper 3:1 merge collector. Maybe not enough to really matter but it could possibly make a noticeable difference too. For being sorted out on the dyno that just struck me as odd. I understand the dyno headers aspect. I worked for one of the most winning and well respected NHRA Comp & Super Comp engine builders in the business. The amount of dyno headers they had was sight to see. And the smallest things were taken in consideration for max dyno performance. Again the V8 header on a V6 being strange to me.
@@mytmousemalibu . Good point. Yeah you would think having that dead hole in the collector would upset the scavenging of the headers but I have yet to see the engine in the car. So as you would know there are alot off other tests that you can do on the dyno before you even look at the headers and exhaust. But we may never know they could of built a trick set of headers with only the six pipes and the v8 set were better. Cool build though.
My dad has a friend he buys tooling off of for Chrysler that actually had a Grand National that he had put a retired Nascar V6 in. He added fuel injection and twin turbos. Made about 1100hp. Pretty interesting guy. I actually saw the car on a lift at his plant up there back when he still had it. Pretty wild car and even wilder engine.
Ran an experimental 14 to 1 Buick V6 in my dirt modified. Ran well but was beat coming off the corners. Ran it in 10 races and finished as high a 5th. Oh, this was back in the late 80's. Also had a Buick v6 in a IMSA bodied Monza street car.
This reminds me of the late Fred Larson of the Larson and Cummins streamliner that used a V8 block but only ran 4 cylinders at a time at the Salt Flats.
Mr. Dorton is a legendary genius, and there have been very few that have came along in his league. But I'm old, and I remember the 80's in the NASCAR Busch Series, they were running v6s. This cylinder head and piston design are almost identical to the Ford SVO v6 NASCAR engine then. They were running 14:1 to 16:1 compression on those. The Chevys were more like their v8s, and the Buicks were running theirs at that timer as well. Neither had the canted valves, heart shape chambers, and valve arrangement like this SB2 and the SVO design.
Its funny you can see how chevy pretty much borrowed the entire Yates cleveland style head design right here on the SB2 But yet chevy never made a small block with canted valve heads. Well until the sb2
Of course your counterweight would have to be the same as the missing connecting rods, piston,wrist pin, bolts and bearings. I assume. Makes me wonder what he can do with a gm3800
Could be wrong but if it was the same weight as all the stuff added up it wouldn't make sense because of where the rotating mass is. The piston has to go up and and stop and come back down. That seems like it would create more force than the clamp around the crankshaft which spins evenly without having the up and down force. It's definitely more balanced on that spot of the crankshaft but I don't know how that would affect the rest of it. Definitely cool to see how they did it.
The trick is the weight turns on the crank. It's not just bolted on there. So the mass does rotate..Knowing how much each half needs to weight. Takes testing. Lots of testing to get the right diameter and weight.
This is cool. I’m very familiar with that engine the sb2. I worked for Jimmmy Means for about 10 years building engines mostly and tuning. I have been through many Hendrick sb2 that he has bought off them. We would get those and depending on the history we just did rings and bearings. A basic freshening up and then dyno them. That’s my favorite part. Feeling the concrete vibrating under your feet. The dyno cell has 2 Freightliner mufflers on it since the shop is in the city limits. My house is 2.5 miles away and I can hear the dyno run. Listening from my house I can usually tell if it’s good out of the box or it’s giving trouble. If I’m not busy I’ll call him up and ask if he needs a hand bc it sounds like it’s being a hand full. It’s always fun to go hang out and mess with those engines. Very cool what’s been done with this engine.
@Dave Micolichek , Well Sherlock I am from if you think you trying to insult me thinking I am from Australia well you would be wrong. I probably live closer to you than you think.🤔
@Dave Micolichek , It was a bit of Banter. Like I think your comment about the caps lock (yelling) was intended to be. So don't take things so seriously Man. No need to get all bent out of shape about it. There are other things going on that are more important. It was a Joke and you got butthurt. Take it easy.
My wish of all time is to have a one of a kind engine in my daily driver('12 Mustang GT) and for no one to know what i have. Not talking about power adders or the like. But this configuration hits a few notes on what I've envisioned.
Kieth dorten is a genius. The way he eliminated those rear 2 cyl without any problems and got the horsepower and RPM is just insane. Great job. WOW!!!!!!
It's unfortunate really, that we have turbos and blowers that are so good nowadays. I mean now you put turbos on and som e fuel, turn the boost up and haul ass. I attended SAM Racing courses in Houston in 2006 and my how the race world has blown up, literally. Real engine building is not seen so much anymore! I miss building engine masters engines more than anything! But turning 10k rpm on those racecars was awesome too! I will build myself a nasty N/A engine before I'm gone! I haven't had my hands on engines like this in years but I will never forget how to do it!
The strangest engine I ever worked on was a small block ford V8. What made it so strange was that it ran on 4 cylinders. It used 1 bank of cylinders to run the engine and the other bank to run as an air compressor. I was amazed not just by the sight of the thing, but also how smooth it ran on 4 cylinders. It was mounted on a trailer along with a large air tank.
Bonneville is still the home for the backyard inventive people & this sort of stuff is common. Inline 4 cylinder-V8 blocks, V4-V8 blocks even a blown nitro inline 4-Hemi-V8 block that went over 300 mph in a Comp-coupe. There has also been a V-twin that was cut off the end of a blown Hemi. The rear engine roadster class like these guys run has a Flathead Ford record of 229.
It blows me away to think of a flathead making enough power to push a car to nearly 230 mph. Never made it out to Bonneville, but it's on my bucket list. Thanks for watching.
@@TheHorsepowerMonster Innovation is encouraged under SCTA. No bellybutton cars & most of it is still home built. We're running out of salt due to the mining so don't wait too long.
These are so cool. I've read about these but it was fun doing a deep dive. Got to do a rebuild on the "big block" V6 from nascar. Love this type of ingenuity.
That would just be sparking freely because they probably have it tuned as lean as possible to make the maximum power which would have no combustible exhaust gas. And if it did burn a plug wire or something and have a cylinder worth of combustible gas it would become someone of a possibly hazardous backfire
If it did by some chance ignite anything in the exhaust it would decrease exhaust flow by building pressure in the exhaust system. Also as mentioned if there was some type of timing/fuel, etc. problem backfiring is no good especially at 9000 RPM. There also might be a rule against it.
good luck at the upcoming Bonneville, cant wait to see results...we will be racing it in 2020 on a motorcycle, hope you guys break the record in your class..best wishes
This just happen to be a recommended video that I passed over a couple times, WOW am I glad I clicked it. I thought it was gonna be some click bait video but I was very wrong. Great video just subscribed.
Its videos like this that give me actual comprehension. Through them solving issues I just learn how everything works. Rebuilding a dohc little 4 banger right now.
Don't get me wrong this is just all kinds of awesome, and really displays the skill of the machinist that built this beast. But I really have to wonder if there is a better, lighter way to get this done. I mean surely there's another GM platform they could have used, or even something import for that matter.
These guys get lost... Badly. Look at the aftermarket parts. You can build 4 cylinders from Chevy sb, Ford small and large blocks. There are tons of parts available without this extra weight and size that is wasted here. This must satisfy some petty rules... Interesting, but useless.
Fun fact: Jaguar does the something similar for their V6, it’s a V8 block with V6 heads, 2 cylinders are left blank from the cast, saves them money in production and tooling costs.
I blew 3rd gear out in the middle of toasting some ricer, so I said aw shit and went for 4th because he was comin up fast. it was there and I still pulled away while bogging it lol
@@Airsoftbros888 My bad, thought you were talking about Dorton's V6 hybrid. I felt like he had the back 2 sealed off well. Plug wires off though on a normal engine is not good and not only fuel in oil but: washed down cylinders, hone gone, rings sharp, scuffed skirts, perpetual smoking, etc......I have more than a slight interest, more like an addiction. I like external combustion engines also, just not for racing. Later, Danny
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This has got to be about the coolest thing I have seen all year. Love the sound on those dyno pulls.
Thanks!
Kinda like Dr. Olds too!! Not to knock you down HPM!
Have they run at Bonneville yet? Dying for a update!!!
a
are we talking dynamic comp or mechanical comp?
My father took a Ford v8
And made it a 4 cylinder.
Years later when the engine wore out .
He swapped out the other 4 cylinders and off we went......!!!!
Compressor kits were available for the other four cylinders. One half pumped HP while the other half pumped air.
This is the old guy that shows up in a beater car at the races with an engine that looks like it came out of a junkyard and runs circles around everybody.
lol no, don;t let those old guy in their garages holding beer standing out a Chevy 350 V8 that they repainted and put new gaskets on trick you into thinking "it's 500 HP!" No...
I clicked on this vid expecting lots of eye roll...instead...i got schooled...and impressed!...Very well done!
Much thanks for the kind words. And thanks for watching!
Saaaame XD I seen the head and was like so this dudes big time engine builder coukdnt he totally just build a custom V6 but as I've been watching yeah I should sit down and shut the fuck up and maybe I'll learn a thing or 2 XD
This is Smokey Yunick crazy. Glad there are guys out there that still think like this. 👍
As secretive as these engine builders are, I’m surprised he even shared any of this build. Thanks
True . Getting over 2 HP per cubic inch of displacement , without turbos or nitrous,is simply incredible... sometimes, the Old Ways are Best..😎☺
Ok they are nice numbers and its a cool idea, but i'm a bit confused when he says he couldnt get the valve area out of an existing v8 and that exhisting v6's vibrate more than this thing.
Also whats this about compression? You would think an engine builder would be able to have exactly whatever compression he wants out of any platform
Methinks he just decided a nascar engine already has everything done to it and was the easiest option for this application just to blank off two cylinders.
Which is a cool idea but he doesnt have to bullshit about it lol.
@@m.b.82 So the devil's in the details. You need valve reliefs to not compromise cam timing and NASCAR heads have about the smallest practical combustion chamber in the head for something that flows. So that's about what you can get without going to a clean sheet of paper purpose built 4 valve per cylinder sorta thing.
@@mekilljoydammit Yeah. Its already as far as you can go and its all been done for you with a nascar engine.
M. B. The comment about vibrations of existing v6’s has to do with the degrees of separation between ignition of each cylinder in a v8 vs a v6 (a v8 has a cylinder firing every 45 degrees instead of every 60 degrees), even though they eliminated two cylinders they kept the same crank spacing of a v8 and used counterweights to balance the shaft. Through the unique setup they got the smooth running of a v8 which is nicer on other drivetrain components and the benefits of extra stroke of the v6 while staying within the max displacement rules for the class they are running. They chose the nascar engine because it’s highly developed and can get great power at high rpm reliably which saves them enough time and money on development. Ironically the fact that they didn’t change the firing order and crankshaft spacing is also why it sounds a bit like a Harley motor and a V8 got mashed together!
Those aren't pushrods, they are police billy clubs with the handle shaved off. 😳😂
J man thems drill rods off an oil rig!
I am just damn proud and happy that we live in a country that is so awesome people are free to build 6 cylinder nascar engines. God bless you all.
That dry sump is worth more than my car. Lol. Hell yeah.
Kieth dorten is a genius. The way he eliminated those rear 2 cyl without any problems and got the horsepower and RPM is just insane. Great job. WOW!!!!!!
This engine is an absolute MASTERPIECE, I've never seen an engine with so much care and thought put into it.
Tyler Coates th-cam.com/video/Dx-zPNxsrIs/w-d-xo.html
These engines are epic, and hearing this one running as a V6.... that is freaking amazing!!!
Wow you can hear the cam chop even at 3200 rpm. That's insane.
That near instant startup and the crispness of the exhaust note immediately tells you how everything has been done right on this build.
I love how he came up with real world solutions to fix problems and do something different
This is just about the closest to old school invention meets proper modern engine technology. I can only hope that some young folks will appreciate the talent and experience this man possesses. What a legend!
One of the most ingenious solutions to a problem I've ever seen! If only we could apply this logic to government.
If its logical the government will kill it..
Wait...What? Isn't government already operated this way? 8 cylinders engine but only 6 are running! or even half of that
Probably but it hasn't been properly modified to run with all the dead cylinders it has
Hey Jarrod it’s Jared
We all understand it and how it would work basically. Instead is big government you have smaller government. There that’s how it’s supposed to be problem is government doesn’t want to be smaller so you know... problems 😂😂
What a motor. Damn. That guy is amazing. I can't even imagine the hours he has into this build.
SO MUCH YES! This is exactly what racing is. Your not racing the guy next to you. Your racing the rulebook.
Great build Mr. Dorton, we met years ago and I have never forgotten. I left the V8 world of Engine Building for 2 wheels, mainly Harley Davidson. For those who don't know, this man's pure genius, like the late great Smokey, but without the language. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
I have yet to met Keith but my neighbor is one of the members of the hot rod hoodlums race team. From what I hear he is one of last great engine hot rodders.
SARGE BULLDOG I love my Iron!
Could you leave the empty exhaust sides open to ventilate the engine? I would suppose you'd want to run the exhaust pipes for those separately.
No he isn't. This build, makes no sense. His entire reasoning is flawed by the fact that, since the late 1980, there are engines that have extremely short stroke and upwards of 13 to 1 compression.
I mean road going bikes combine sub 50mm strokes and up to 14.5 to 1 compression. (Yes I know Harleys do not but I'm referring to bikes actual modern engines not 1930s fossils)
@@TheNecromancer6666 u are missing something fundamental. Educate yourself and rethink. Reasoning is NOT flawed for that spesific USE. Why u think hes engine is succesful ? ratio or pressure btw?
It's built to a specific style for a specific purpose. His rep speaks for itself.
Good luck at Bonneville. I'm headed out for Speed Week as well. That is one of the things I love most about Bonneville is just all the weird stuff you see. I remember my first year going to Speed Week, someone was running a streamliner with a blown Hemi in it, except 1 whole bank of cylinders was missing, and they were running it as a 4 cylinder. 2 friends of mine run a coupe with a Model A flathead in it that has a DOHC conversion he built in his garage, casting and everything.
That's the coolest v6 EVER!! And this guys a genius!!
My first truck was 1997 Eddie Bauer Edition with a 4.0 v6 Cologne engine 215hp stock. The engine was made in Cologne Germany.
Always thought Bonneville was THE last place on earth where creativity ruled. This build is a great example of that. Expensive? Yes, but horsepower is never cheap! Very innovative!
Australias Lake Gairdner is where the speeds are getting better even though getting to the lake bed is a mission in itself.
man, that thing is radical! 30 some years ago our auto shop teacher was working on a 4 cyl. small block chevy for Bonneville, i believe it ran at least once. they had an old Studebaker. thanks for the memories. i think i may still have one of the cams.
Do you know about 12 years ago I was heavily into off-road racing out in California and we had acquired a couple Busch Series V6 Ford motors it was crazy the amount of horsepower that does V6 has had
I giggled, I was in awe. I'm in love. This is my new favorite video and builder. Thank you.
I just love innovative ideas like this! Very interesting concepts here that REALLY WORK! Most impressive indeed! It's amazing how much it still sounds like a high-winding V8.
Wow! The man is a genius!! He's got every trick in the book in that engine! I often wondered what a SB2 looked like in the inside and now I know why those NASCAR engines live at 9,000 rpm for 500+ miles!!
When I saw the Dyno figures I was like "600 Hp? what's the hype?" And then he reminded me this was Carb N/A..
Then my jaw dropped.. 😅 That's a little monster.
600 n/a less than 300 ci😅😅
It's nice to hear someone on youtube talk about an engine and actually know what they are talking about.
Hey, thanks!
I cut my eye teeth building SBC; you can gauge my thoughts about this video by how many times I said, "Jesus Christ!", while watching. The count? I lost track, (didn't want to take my shoes off! LOL)
I was fortunate enough to have a drag racing mentor when I was in my teens. He'd built a national record holding car in the early '60's. The first thing he taught me was block and head prep, pre porting & blueprinting. I looked at this sweet SB, knowing just how many hours it takes to make one look like that.
Had to laugh, though, the builder didn't want to give up the cam specs, but I do believe you gave enough info talking about the valve train, a guy could back calc the lift, if not the duration.... ooops... LOL
Very impressive V-6, starting with a very impressive V8. Never paid much attention to Nascar, but I will spend some time learning about these SB2's, after watching this.
Thanks... you picked up another sub. Keep up the great vids...
GeoD
Thanks for the kind words!
shane a few too many aussies ask for that mod on their burnout cars so they made it a product line?
There are some great conversation going one here! That's why I enjoy being a part of the race enthusiast's crowd. We can argue and bicker at each other about bob weight and compression ratios until our faces are red, then at the end of the day sit down and enjoy a cold beer together!
Exactly right. Thanks for watching!
He reminds me somewhat of Smokey Yunick. He thinks outside the box, which I admire.
Benefit of competing in land speed events vs. drag racing/RR: No need to shave off ounces from every component.
Many cars even have ballast made from lead or tungsten because getting CG low enough and into harmony with the center of drag is more important than increased mass.
W O W ! ! ! A simple answer to getting round the length of stroke, to up the compression it is
N O T ! This is a highly complicated build! Very well thought out and executed.
A paradoxical approach to building a V6. To get past the limitations set out!!
Got to take your hat of to this engine and its builder!!
Yet again a excellent build video! And a brilliant way of tackling a problem!!
Thanks a lot!
How could anyone NOT appreciate the innovation !!!
Now this is what im talking about.. I love it, so if your v8 develops a rod knock, take 2 opposite rods out and make a better engine🤔 I dig it lol
Larsen & Cummins did the same thing back in the 60"s and built a tiny 120 inch chevy that ran 258
Thanks for this. Looked that up and there're some good reads...
I believe Mickey Thompson also ran a four cylinder version of a Pontiac 389 in the early '60, one side of the V, at drag races and Bonneville. That also was the engine in the original Tempest compact at the time (and why drag racers put in the full V8 in them, and eventually that's how the Pontiac GTO grew out of the Tempest.)
I don't care what Chevy does am not or ever will be a fan just the way I am will never change. Stable!!!!!!¡!
@@allenl9031 It was the Pontiac Trophy engine which used the right bank of the 389. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Trophy_4_engine
A two litre Crossplane v4 ? I like it.
One of the most if not the most intriguing builds I’ve ever seen. Great video!!
Thanks very much!
It is amazing how little valve spring pressure is being run nowadays thanks to Spintron testing actually showing what is happening on the top end of the motor. I mean 160 on the seat and 600 over the nose is nothing for a 270 @0.050" and 0.800" lift cam! Not to mention the 1/2" thick wall pushrods (I know pushrod weight is supposedly inconsequential but it has to add SOME weight/rpm loss to the valvetrain)
Amazing stuff. SB2 & 2.2 is just so freaking cool! Now show us some R07 stuff Keith and Randy!!
Creating something is one thing...Making someone elses design better for certain applications is genius.
I have almost all the parts to build my oddfire (commonpin crank)4-bolt main 4.3 V6 and this just gave me more enthusiasm. Mine won't even be smooth but for drag racing, it will be ok
The weight isn't going to be to hard to work out it would be the same as the bob weight used when balancing the engine 50% of the reciprocating mass and 100% of the rotating mass. Not a big secret it is how any crossplane V8 crankshaft is balanced.
Seriously, one of the most unique and impressive builds I have ever seen!! Thanks for sharing!
I’m not a v6 guy but this is super cool! :)
NEITHER IS HE!!! did you watch the video? its a v8 with 2 cylinders not loaded with pistons and rods.
trillrif axegrindor yes I watch the fucking video... it’s a 8 cylinder with 2 pistons missing... they even call a v6 so go be an asshole somewhere else
Tell him!! always a keyboard douche somewhere online.smh
Dave Micolichek a punk? I’ve never been called a punk! I’m 55, I build race engines... and when someone is being an ass I’ll cuss the crap out of them! All I ever did was say I thought this was cool... not my thing but cool! If anyone’s being a “punk” it’s sure not me! Asshole maybe, prick sometimes, a jerk most times and always opinionated! But punk?! We must have a different definition of punk! Just just go pound sand! I have engines to build and shit to do! I’m done with this stupid shit!
SO mesmerizing watching a true master of his craft and making it look easy...
Love this story. I' watching a Jeremy Hacking run a V6 Syclone 1/4 mile at 185 mph and 7.59 sec. single turbo. I have always had a thing for 6 cylinder engines. NASCAR technology would be so amazing to learn. I once saw 1960's GM V6 Big Block it was made for the half ton. Its Just awesome what is Possible.
one thing i dont understand, is how much power IS being lost int he spark delay? firing 8 plugs but only running 6 means there is a 2 spark delay, timing is correct but i would think that a ECU controlled spark would be best. its just one thing im not understanding here, results speaks for its self thought. Love it
I especially liked the counter weight on the crankshaft. 👍👍
What an incredible build , congrats on the massive engineering that went to make this monster .
Well done boys. Incredible 2.5+ hp/c.i. !?! Holy shitte!
The amount of ingenuity to make this build happen....sheesh. it better smash that class record
Very cool! Im not a Nascar guy but I knew a few drag racers that got their hands on some SB2 stuff and it was impressive! Kinda odd he's still using a V8 header.
They are just dyno headers. You can tell by the o2 port in each runner. And I would say the ones that go in the Landspeed car would hug the block alot more for packaging in the streamlined bodywork.
@@MJTAUTOMOTIVE I just meant it was odd from the aspect that its got the firing impulse of the V6 but its merging into a 4:1 collector with a dead hole. It would be reasonable to believe it might gain a little bit of performance with a proper 3:1 merge collector. Maybe not enough to really matter but it could possibly make a noticeable difference too. For being sorted out on the dyno that just struck me as odd. I understand the dyno headers aspect. I worked for one of the most winning and well respected NHRA Comp & Super Comp engine builders in the business. The amount of dyno headers they had was sight to see. And the smallest things were taken in consideration for max dyno performance. Again the V8 header on a V6 being strange to me.
@@mytmousemalibu . Good point. Yeah you would think having that dead hole in the collector would upset the scavenging of the headers but I have yet to see the engine in the car. So as you would know there are alot off other tests that you can do on the dyno before you even look at the headers and exhaust. But we may never know they could of built a trick set of headers with only the six pipes and the v8 set were better. Cool build though.
My dad has a friend he buys tooling off of for Chrysler that actually had a Grand National that he had put a retired Nascar V6 in. He added fuel injection and twin turbos. Made about 1100hp. Pretty interesting guy. I actually saw the car on a lift at his plant up there back when he still had it. Pretty wild car and even wilder engine.
Keyed lifters were used on the 30's Cadillac V16
Ran an experimental 14 to 1 Buick V6 in my dirt modified. Ran well but was beat coming off the corners. Ran it in 10 races and finished as high a 5th. Oh, this was back in the late 80's. Also had a Buick v6 in a IMSA bodied Monza street car.
Truly ingenious. These innovative machinists never cease to amaze me.
This reminds me of the late Fred Larson of the Larson and Cummins streamliner that used a V8 block but only ran 4 cylinders at a time at the Salt Flats.
Amazing work! Dorton has always been the master builder in NASCAR, and my favorite.
it's crazy it's not the sound of v6 but somethings like v8.good job .perfect for bonneville it's the spirit
Fool the distributor in to thinking it's still a V-8 WOW I could have been a V-8😁
The Plugs fire the motor simply has a dead spot in the sound profile and couldn't give two hoot's .
Five mile long wide open throttle blast across the salt... holy cow 600+ at over 9K rpms . What a monster!
Giving these older engine builders modern tech...
@Neal Head Exactly. Most don't know that. lol
Mr. Dorton is a legendary genius, and there have been very few that have came along in his league.
But I'm old, and I remember the 80's in the NASCAR Busch Series, they were running v6s. This cylinder head and piston design are almost identical to the Ford SVO v6 NASCAR engine then. They were running 14:1 to 16:1 compression on those. The Chevys were more like their v8s, and the Buicks were running theirs at that timer as well. Neither had the canted valves, heart shape chambers, and valve arrangement like this SB2 and the SVO design.
Its funny you can see how chevy pretty much borrowed the entire Yates cleveland style head design right here on the SB2 But yet chevy never made a small block with canted valve heads. Well until the sb2
This guy is a legend. Wile e coyote!
Me. Dorton is definitely a master builder and fabricator!
Of course your counterweight would have to be the same as the missing connecting rods, piston,wrist pin, bolts and bearings. I assume. Makes me wonder what he can do with a gm3800
This definitely opens up possibilities for the venerable GM3800. ^^
@@mael-strom9707 Even a 4300. Same stroke and bore as 5700.
Could be wrong but if it was the same weight as all the stuff added up it wouldn't make sense because of where the rotating mass is. The piston has to go up and and stop and come back down. That seems like it would create more force than the clamp around the crankshaft which spins evenly without having the up and down force. It's definitely more balanced on that spot of the crankshaft but I don't know how that would affect the rest of it. Definitely cool to see how they did it.
The trick is the weight turns on the crank. It's not just bolted on there. So the mass does rotate..Knowing how much each half needs to weight. Takes testing. Lots of testing to get the right diameter and weight.
Idk why he didn't just start with this
This is cool. I’m very familiar with that engine the sb2. I worked for Jimmmy Means for about 10 years building engines mostly and tuning. I have been through many Hendrick sb2 that he has bought off them. We would get those and depending on the history we just did rings and bearings. A basic freshening up and then dyno them. That’s my favorite part. Feeling the concrete vibrating under your feet. The dyno cell has 2 Freightliner mufflers on it since the shop is in the city limits. My house is 2.5 miles away and I can hear the dyno run. Listening from my house I can usually tell if it’s good out of the box or it’s giving trouble. If I’m not busy I’ll call him up and ask if he needs a hand bc it sounds like it’s being a hand full. It’s always fun to go hang out and mess with those engines.
Very cool what’s been done with this engine.
NOW THATS THINKING OUTSIDE THE BLOCK, CHEERS FROM OZ.
@Dave Micolichek NO PROBLEM SNOWFLAKE. 🤣🤣🤣
@Dave Micolichek. What do you mean You Guys.
@Dave Micolichek , Well Sherlock I am from if you think you trying to insult me thinking I am from Australia well you would be wrong.
I probably live closer to you than you think.🤔
@Dave Micolichek , It was a bit of Banter. Like I think your comment about the caps lock (yelling) was intended to be.
So don't take things so seriously Man. No need to get all bent out of shape about it. There are other things going on that are more important. It was a Joke and you got butthurt. Take it easy.
@Dave Micolichek . Ok then Dave. All in good Fun. If I offended you I apologize. Stay safe Brother. Look after yourself. Cheers Mark.
My wish of all time is to have a one of a kind engine in my daily driver('12 Mustang GT) and for no one to know what i have. Not talking about power adders or the like. But this configuration hits a few notes on what I've envisioned.
Love the sound of this thing...
Prayers for this guy and a long life, not many guys around like this. All that knowledge l.
Kieth dorten is a genius. The way he eliminated those rear 2 cyl without any problems and got the horsepower and RPM is just insane. Great job. WOW!!!!!!
It's unfortunate really, that we have turbos and blowers that are so good nowadays. I mean now you put turbos on and som e fuel, turn the boost up and haul ass. I attended SAM Racing courses in Houston in 2006 and my how the race world has blown up, literally. Real engine building is not seen so much anymore! I miss building engine masters engines more than anything! But turning 10k rpm on those racecars was awesome too! I will build myself a nasty N/A engine before I'm gone! I haven't had my hands on engines like this in years but I will never forget how to do it!
The strangest engine I ever worked on was a small block ford V8. What made it so strange was that it ran on 4 cylinders. It used 1 bank of cylinders to run the engine and the other bank to run as an air compressor. I was amazed not just by the sight of the thing, but also how smooth it ran on 4 cylinders. It was mounted on a trailer along with a large air tank.
This took some serious thought. Great work
Nice to see problems solved with sideways thinking. Did anyone notice the date stamped on the valve. 31 Aug 2005.
That's stinkin' aWeSoMe!!!!!
The concept is amazing!!
Love the sound too!
Bonneville is still the home for the backyard inventive people & this sort of stuff is common. Inline 4 cylinder-V8 blocks, V4-V8 blocks even a blown nitro inline 4-Hemi-V8 block that went over 300 mph in a Comp-coupe. There has also been a V-twin that was cut off the end of a blown Hemi. The rear engine roadster class like these guys run has a Flathead Ford record of 229.
It blows me away to think of a flathead making enough power to push a car to nearly 230 mph. Never made it out to Bonneville, but it's on my bucket list. Thanks for watching.
@@TheHorsepowerMonster Innovation is encouraged under SCTA. No bellybutton cars & most of it is still home built. We're running out of salt due to the mining so don't wait too long.
Just another genius in a shop apron 🛠️👍
These are so cool. I've read about these but it was fun doing a deep dive. Got to do a rebuild on the "big block" V6 from nascar. Love this type of ingenuity.
Use the spare plugs to lite off the exhaust.
My first thought.
That would just be sparking freely because they probably have it tuned as lean as possible to make the maximum power which would have no combustible exhaust gas. And if it did burn a plug wire or something and have a cylinder worth of combustible gas it would become someone of a possibly hazardous backfire
Fires at 200 Mph are not a good idea.
@@mrthesquid that's why you put them in the exhaust.
If it did by some chance ignite anything in the exhaust it would decrease exhaust flow by building pressure in the exhaust system. Also as mentioned if there was some type of timing/fuel, etc. problem backfiring is no good especially at 9000 RPM. There also might be a rule against it.
Just wanted to say that the Boneville salt flats are located on the Nevada/Utah border off hwy 80.
.850 on the valve lift,is he sure its enough? 😳😳😳
For being a "pig down low" , 400hp at 6000 aint shabby.
1.8 rocker arms my type of guy
what a fun, informative video. Keith Dorton is a creative master of his craft. thank you so much for posting.
Cool build! Dorton got a good reputation for a reason.
Nice to see they are running Swedish parts (AutoVerdi)!
good luck at the upcoming Bonneville, cant wait to see results...we will be racing it in 2020 on a motorcycle, hope you guys break the record in your class..best wishes
Good luck to you too!
This just happen to be a recommended video that I passed over a couple times, WOW am I glad I clicked it. I thought it was gonna be some click bait video but I was very wrong. Great video just subscribed.
Thanks!
same as me,,, really learnt a thing or 6..
Its videos like this that give me actual comprehension. Through them solving issues I just learn how everything works. Rebuilding a dohc little 4 banger right now.
Don't get me wrong this is just all kinds of awesome, and really displays the skill of the machinist that built this beast. But I really have to wonder if there is a better, lighter way to get this done. I mean surely there's another GM platform they could have used, or even something import for that matter.
These guys get lost...
Badly. Look at the aftermarket parts.
You can build 4 cylinders from Chevy sb, Ford small and large blocks. There are tons of parts available without this extra weight and size that is wasted here. This must satisfy some petty rules...
Interesting, but useless.
Keith is a legend !!!
Thanks, I know I am 🤣🤣
Fun fact: Jaguar does the something similar for their V6, it’s a V8 block with V6 heads, 2 cylinders are left blank from the cast, saves them money in production and tooling costs.
I would love to build engines like this. It would be my dream job.
That was a dogbone, not a crows foot for the studs under the exhaust manifold.
And some TH-cam channels think they're the shit just because they did an LS swap. Lol
Ha! Thanks for watching!
Buick did this with their V8 a long time ago, and the 3800 V6 was born. I have alot of respect for any motor with a good history.
Was gonna build this same motor but instead I bought 7 houses in North Carolina!!
This dude is a legend! I wish all V6’s were this powerful like a V6
I had a engine run on 6 cylinders before, it still smoked a mustang , I had 2plug wires burned 3/4 through,
I blew 3rd gear out in the middle of toasting some ricer, so I said aw shit and went for 4th because he was comin up fast.
it was there and I still pulled away while bogging it lol
Lots of fuel in the oil if you keep running it like that
@@Airsoftbros888 How?
@@dannyparris9172 if I need to explain you should not have a slight interest in internal combustion engines ...
@@Airsoftbros888 My bad, thought you were talking about Dorton's V6 hybrid. I felt like he had the back 2 sealed off well. Plug wires off though on a normal engine is not good and not only fuel in oil but: washed down cylinders, hone gone, rings sharp, scuffed skirts, perpetual smoking, etc......I have more than a slight interest, more like an addiction. I like external combustion engines also, just not for racing. Later, Danny
Just WoW, i was blown away by his innovation, truly remarkable..