Thank you! I've been wondering for years how this concept actually worked in practice - i.e., HOW rigid it actually is, how reliable the staple connections are and so on. Thanks for putting so much work into this research.
@@levantia5492 my base lamellae is based on a type of lamellar found in Chinese Turkmenistan. The lamellae for my shoulders are based on a Tibetan suit of armour.
Hey, I've been actually following your website on and off for some time. I was wondering if you had a chance to work with leather/hyde scales as well? These aren't directly Byzantine but we have do have archeological finds for these, for example, in the Citadel of Damascus collection (a work by David Nicolle I would highly recommend; I can't remember if it's scale or strips, or maybe both). We also have testimonies of hyde armour in the Byzantine world, for example during the siege of Constantinople inf 1453.
HI. I have made some sample panels of lamellar in leather, but as I have never seen any evidence for leather being used for scale, and perceiving it as inherently deficient, not that.
@@levantia5492 I'm quite surprised you've come to that conclusion, what with the 1925 Karanis find in Egypt by the University of Michigan, or the Citadel of Damascus collection. Or maybe it's due to fact you've failed to do any follow ups on available evidence? Or it could be because your anachronstic interpretation has informed historical evidence that supercedes your preference for leather scale.
We may be talking at cross purposes. I have no issue with leather *laminar* - that is band armours made of leather - they did exist and more work does need to be done on them. And, as I have always said, leather *lamellar* - segments with complex textile bindings - have never been in doubt. However this discussion is of *scale* armour, small segments usually attached to a substrate garment in by limited range of methods. I maintain my assertion based upon both experience, observation and evidence that leather is not suited to this application and has rarely been used that way. @@BorninPurple
@@levantia5492 Yes, I agree we seem to be talking at cross purposes because you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I am not talking about laminar armour, I never asked you initially about this (and it's clear you can't read what I'm saying); I asked specifically about scale armour. You said you haven't seen any evidence of scale armour because it's deficient, after I highlighted two areas of evidence, from finds where scale armour was used. You've then, for reasons which are unbeknownst to myself have decided to double down on a point about laminar armour and reiterated your point, without citing any evidence to explain otherwise. This would suggest what you've stated is not correct and just because it doesn't stand up to your notions what you think may have been "suited to this application" does not imply that was necessarily the case.
You asked about *scales* made of *leather/hide*. I answered that immediately. The examples you referred to are NOT *scales* made of leather/hide. @@BorninPurple
You should make a smaller sample and beat the crap out of it not keep in mind that the armor would have gone through heat treating and hammer hardening so it would be able to withstand more
There is no reason to imagine that the scales of this armour would be heat treated or work hardened. It would make no difference because the weakness is in the linkages of the copper alloy staples, not the scales themselves. But some testing is a good idea.
I always assumed scale armors were floating like a mail shirt, are they alway attached to a more rigid structure or was it your choice ? looks great anyway, kinda like a reinforced linothorax.
I thought scale is defined as small plates attached to a backing (and thus always needs a backing) while lamellar is defined as small plates attached to each other (and thus can have but doesn't need a backing)
Now that you mention it, there is a deficiency in that area. One post on the Levantia Facebook page: facebook.com/406397966135060/photos/pb.100027792176304.-2207520000/2999203910187773/?type=3 I will add some more today.
And a close up: scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/89632939_2755147981260035_3692006019954638848_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=pvwwE78uFKMQ7kNvgHBGtNy&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&_nc_gid=A7xTGG_nQMrEILc7Kpis1sy&oh=00_AYCDTh0Ey6-29ykV7j2eI5avzreE5c-5EOybix5FZAkXsg&oe=672C96FC
okay so I'm confused... as a layman, what is the difference between this and lamellar? because the finished piece seems basically identical to lamellar
The simple answer is that it is scale because it overlaps downward. Of course, there is more to it than that on both sides (scale v. lamellar). If you want the full story, get my book: Armour Never Wearies: A History of Lamellar and Scale Armour in the West from the Bronze Age to the Nineteenth century, The History Press, 2013
Because it is scale. The full explanation is too long for here. I suggest you have a look at my book: Armour Never Wearies: A History of Lamellar and Scale Armour in the West from the Bronze Age to the Nineteenth century, The History Press, 2013 ISBN: 9780752488622, which is still available from various sources.
@@NoBSSurvival You do not have to take my word for it. This construction is acknowledged as scale in all the serious scholarship on Roman arms and armour for the last century or so. But perhaps you know better than people like Peter Connolly, Mike Bishop, etc.
@@NoBSSurvival Yes, because, as I said at the beginning, the answer is not simple. That is why there has been so much confusion about it, and why I wrote the book. I am not going to write it all again here.
Thank you! I've been wondering for years how this concept actually worked in practice - i.e., HOW rigid it actually is, how reliable the staple connections are and so on. Thanks for putting so much work into this research.
Thank you sooo much for this video! Awesome recreation!
Just now discovered this channel. Very cool stuff here! Thank you!
very few people recreate this properly. for late roman/early byzantine troops it seems pretty reasonable and effective.
@@tatumergo3931 I think there are some fragments.
British museum object number
1928,0709.4
Very nice! I'm currently making my own lamellar armor.
Lamellar is much more interesting than scale. What type are you doing?
@@levantia5492 my base lamellae is based on a type of lamellar found in Chinese Turkmenistan. The lamellae for my shoulders are based on a Tibetan suit of armour.
You're work is beautiful
Thank you!
Very nice.
Hey, I've been actually following your website on and off for some time. I was wondering if you had a chance to work with leather/hyde scales as well? These aren't directly Byzantine but we have do have archeological finds for these, for example, in the Citadel of Damascus collection (a work by David Nicolle I would highly recommend; I can't remember if it's scale or strips, or maybe both). We also have testimonies of hyde armour in the Byzantine world, for example during the siege of Constantinople inf 1453.
HI. I have made some sample panels of lamellar in leather, but as I have never seen any evidence for leather being used for scale, and perceiving it as inherently deficient, not that.
@@levantia5492 I'm quite surprised you've come to that conclusion, what with the 1925 Karanis find in Egypt by the University of Michigan, or the Citadel of Damascus collection. Or maybe it's due to fact you've failed to do any follow ups on available evidence? Or it could be because your anachronstic interpretation has informed historical evidence that supercedes your preference for leather scale.
We may be talking at cross purposes. I have no issue with leather *laminar* - that is band armours made of leather - they did exist and more work does need to be done on them. And, as I have always said, leather *lamellar* - segments with complex textile bindings - have never been in doubt. However this discussion is of *scale* armour, small segments usually attached to a substrate garment in by limited range of methods. I maintain my assertion based upon both experience, observation and evidence that leather is not suited to this application and has rarely been used that way. @@BorninPurple
@@levantia5492 Yes, I agree we seem to be talking at cross purposes because you don't seem to understand what I am saying.
I am not talking about laminar armour, I never asked you initially about this (and it's clear you can't read what I'm saying); I asked specifically about scale armour. You said you haven't seen any evidence of scale armour because it's deficient, after I highlighted two areas of evidence, from finds where scale armour was used.
You've then, for reasons which are unbeknownst to myself have decided to double down on a point about laminar armour and reiterated your point, without citing any evidence to explain otherwise. This would suggest what you've stated is not correct and just because it doesn't stand up to your notions what you think may have been "suited to this application" does not imply that was necessarily the case.
You asked about *scales* made of *leather/hide*. I answered that immediately. The examples you referred to are NOT *scales* made of leather/hide. @@BorninPurple
If I ever have money, I will probably order one of these from you.
If you're selling.
I'd like to see a rich man's version, made from random bits of beaten metal that aren't cut down. =p
You should make a smaller sample and beat the crap out of it not keep in mind that the armor would have gone through heat treating and hammer hardening so it would be able to withstand more
There is no reason to imagine that the scales of this armour would be heat treated or work hardened. It would make no difference because the weakness is in the linkages of the copper alloy staples, not the scales themselves.
But some testing is a good idea.
I always assumed scale armors were floating like a mail shirt, are they alway attached to a more rigid structure or was it your choice ? looks great anyway, kinda like a reinforced linothorax.
I thought scale is defined as small plates attached to a backing (and thus always needs a backing) while lamellar is defined as small plates attached to each other (and thus can have but doesn't need a backing)
Apart from this particular type, scales are always supported by a base garment, to which they are stitched or laced.
What century would this be from?
This construction was in use from the second to the fourth centuries.
@@levantia5492 BCE or CE?
CE@@alexprice9573
Are there any pictures online of reproductions of this armor?
Now that you mention it, there is a deficiency in that area. One post on the Levantia Facebook page: facebook.com/406397966135060/photos/pb.100027792176304.-2207520000/2999203910187773/?type=3
I will add some more today.
And a close up: scontent-man2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/89632939_2755147981260035_3692006019954638848_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=13d280&_nc_ohc=pvwwE78uFKMQ7kNvgHBGtNy&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1.xx&_nc_gid=A7xTGG_nQMrEILc7Kpis1sy&oh=00_AYCDTh0Ey6-29ykV7j2eI5avzreE5c-5EOybix5FZAkXsg&oe=672C96FC
okay so I'm confused... as a layman, what is the difference between this and lamellar? because the finished piece seems basically identical to lamellar
The simple answer is that it is scale because it overlaps downward.
Of course, there is more to it than that on both sides (scale v. lamellar). If you want the full story, get my book: Armour Never Wearies: A History of Lamellar and Scale Armour in the West from the Bronze
Age to the Nineteenth century, The History Press, 2013
@@levantia5492 That's a great explanation for a layman. Thanks for the response!
How is this not Lamellar?
Because it is scale. The full explanation is too long for here. I suggest you have a look at my book: Armour Never Wearies: A History of Lamellar and Scale Armour in the West from the Bronze Age to the Nineteenth century, The History Press, 2013 ISBN: 9780752488622, which is still available from various sources.
@@levantia5492 Then I'm going to keep calling it lamellar because it links vertically and horizontally.
@@NoBSSurvival You do not have to take my word for it. This construction is acknowledged as scale in all the serious scholarship on Roman arms and armour for the last century or so. But perhaps you know better than people like Peter Connolly, Mike Bishop, etc.
@@levantia5492 I'm just asking what is the difference. And your answer is buy your book.
@@NoBSSurvival Yes, because, as I said at the beginning, the answer is not simple. That is why there has been so much confusion about it, and why I wrote the book. I am not going to write it all again here.