I love when Sam does the long winded preamble for each game. "This next game is on my list of stuff. And it's a game that's interesting for a number of reasons and I'm going to say what it is soon, but first I'm just going to say that I'm going to name a game any minute."
Don't be afraid of repeats, Sam. If you like a game and it hits a few different genres, you like it. Most games have elements a few different mechanics. If nothing else, it shows you're consistent. I watch these for the interaction between you guys and to learn good games to buy. If a game keeps popping up, that helps me as a consumer.
I need a separate "best hidden goals" list. "1 vs. all/traitor" games just are not my cup of tea, and they take to much space on this list. The most fun part of the discworld board game was figuring out what the goals of the other players where and sabotage them.
For a change I also had some trouble to distinct between the categories, since in (social) deduction games, what you usually deduce ARE the hidden roles of the other players. Well done guys, I own about 50% of the mentioned games and love them!
I agree with picking Citadels. If you wanna hinder someone, you need to figure out their role, even if it's just chosen for a round. For hidden (team) role games, I also like Coup, Die Kutschfahrt zur Teufelsburg (eng./ger. Ed.) and Sultan of Karaya.
Agree 1000% that Deception is the best hidden role game out there. It takes the accusations of Werewolf and gives them a structure while also allowing the "moderator" to actually play the game. So glad Grey Fox picked this up and made a beautiful edition and Tom's review of the original game cued me in early to it's goodness.
I know this is an older list now but... Discworld: Ankh-Morpork is a brilliant hidden-role game, since the role basically determines your victory condition (not the points you get at the end, as with Lords of Waterdeep) - basically, if you accomplish your hidden objective first, you win... And so, everything you do is either geared up towards achieving your goal or to sabotaging others because you think you know who they are - and in this game, knowing who someone is is huge, it's not just a by-product of the gameplay.
This one is for Tom and Ultimate Werewolf. I normally make it a bit different from standard rules. Prior to game session I prepare scenarios, and roles for every person who will be in game. By "roles" I don't mean specific cards, but rather character they need to improvise. For example, setting is polar station with having dogs disappearing over last few nights. At station we have some scientists (geologists, meteorologists)... I don't know... whatever... make something up with something that might feed persons actual interests, profession, whatsoever. So, each person gets card with secret role, and each person has actual role that everyone knows and playing according to that character - creating a little story. That's normally pretty cool experience if you play it with right people. In fact, while most people say that Ultimate werewolf is sort of boring, same people where saying totally opposite when playing with predefined setting and scenario. Also, you can provide some interaction to dead players. For example, every dead becomes a ghost in villagers team, and providing them with specific information but based on d20 roll. Information may be some mimics, item, a letter, anagram, etc.
And now I'd say, in 2020: #2. Blood Bound- VERY light, VERY quick (15 minutes) game where 2 teams gradually reveal information about everyone until one team knows enough to identify the other team's leader and kill them. Everyone gets a special role with a once per game power. This is the "one night" version of Shadow Hunters. #1. Dark Moon- The best, and maybe the most obscure hidden role games. It's literally the "Battlestar Galactica express" fan mod made into a published game. A streamlined BSG (mostly by getting rid of movement and ship combat) where the big difference is you're using dice instead of cards for skill checks. Everyone rolls behind a screen, and submits one or more die in order to meet the challenge goal. The traitors want to sabotage efforts and will submit bad die rolls claiming, "I rolled bad!". Players have to deduce who is telling the truth and who is tanking. Think Liar's Dice meets BSG. The dice play SO much better than BSG's cards that I can never go back. Definitely my #1 hidden role game right now.
I've only played the Avalon version of The Resistance, and I thought it was a fantastic game - but you have to have the right crowd for it - i.e. players capable of deception and those being able to confront accusations without taking offense or giving their role away. I am surprised its low down on Tom's list - but I hadn't heard of One Night Revolution (in the same theming of The Resistance) and so I am curious as to how it plays. Personally, I love Indie Board & Cards deduction games. Coup is another game in The Resistance universe that I really, really enjoy - and I am surprised it's not on anyone elses list here - because you can lie and claim you basically are any of two roles and let players decide whether they believe you enough or whether they want to call you out on it.
The Dice Tower That's fair. I realise being position 10 is still saying it's a GREAT game to make the list, but I was perplexed that it wasn't higher - until I saw that One Night Revolution was probably the reason why it had displaced The Resistance. I really enjoyed the video though, thank you!
The Dice Tower i have a problem with resistance, someone help me. resistance loses the game if they fail the last mission. why would spies ever fail a mission? never fail, so that there is zero information going into the final. if one third are spies, and two thirds go on the final mission, the odds are good they'll send a spy. why would anyone ever fail a mission before the final? too many people love it for me to just say " broken". what am i missing?
TechVick they win if they win 3 or 5 missions, buy i thought they also must pass the last. meaning even if they win 4 out of 5 rounds they instantly lose if they fail the last mission. am i wrong?
According to the publisher Deception: Murder in Hong Kong has been reprinted and should hit store shelves this month. And yes, this is the best Hidden Role Game. It's fantastic and replaces all the other ones I've played.
The "Overboard" series done by Polygon has a long list of one off gameplays, many of which are hidden role games of some kind or another, for anyone interested.
Tom 10, Zee 5, Sam 2 - For the Resistance, I have the expansions but never used them, because every time I'm teaching at least 1 person the game, but I think even the base game is great. (I do like Avalon as well). Tom & Zee 9 - I've played Shadow Hunters, I like this game, don't own it. Sam 9, Zee 2 - I love Spyfall, great game - it's a Hidden "Role" game in my opinion. Sam 8 - I love Shadows Over Camelot, don't get a chance to play it as much as I would like. Sam 7 - BattleStar Galactica, is my favorite game of all time, should be # 1, but glad to see this on the list at least. Zee 6, Sam 3 - I do like BANG the dice game, never played the card game, I don't own this game, I do like this game, each time I play it. Tom 5 - I do like Dead of Winter, I own it and like it over Shadows, it's a good game, and look forward to the expansion, not as good as BSG but a GREAT game. Sam 4, Tom 3 - Love Good Cop, Bad Cop, again never played with the expansion, always teaching it to someone, I even played it yesterday. Sam 1, Zee 1 - I do like Deception, Murder in Hong Kong, I don't own it but it is a fun game. I had a lot of the same games as you guys, usually I'm closer only to just Sam's list. Glad to see a good selection. Hidden Roles is probably my favorite genre, so was looking forward to this list.
Tom, where did Mafia de Cuba fall for you? I was expecting to hear about that. Also, wasn't there a game that came out late last year that you all said was similar to Mutiny on the Little Blue?
Gosh dangit you guys. Just when I think I don't need to buy new games I can't ever watch one of your lists without adding something. And now I guess I need Deception, Murder in Hong Kong. I already have Spyfall, Resistance, Bang the dice game, one night werewolf, so I thought I had enough of these types of games...but apparently not!! Also...Z sold me on quicksand. I love how he always has the most obscure entries and they almost always sound good to me.
You could tell they were going through the motions calling it in on this one. Doing a requested list they didn't care about. Especially the argument about Mr Jack.
I love "hidden role" games, so this was a really helpful and fun video!! Thanks Tom Vasel, Zee Garcia and Sam Healy (I hope I wrote you're names right)
I think the biggest difference between Hidden Role games and games like Lords of Waterdeep (or even Ticket To Ride, where you have a secret objective), is that nobody in the latter group is on the same team.
By the way guys, I have been playing the print and play version of Secret Hitler and also on Tabletop Simulator for about 3 months and for me this is the ultimate hidden role game. So much more fun than Resistance. The theme just nails it. Can't wait till it comes out in April/ May this year.
Looking good Tom. Remember your announcement about challenging yourself to get in shape, and it definitely shows :) And thanks to all for these great videos.
I believe Shadow Hunters is either in print, or has been very recently, as I just purchased a copy this past week. Incidentally, it's also the biggest jump a game has ever had from my first playthrough to my second, in terms of how much I enjoyed it.
Where can I buy Zee's #8 game 'TimeBomb', mentioned at 9:30? I found the Cthulhu version 'Don't Mess with Cthulhu' but I'd rather have the original card game. Is it still available? Thanks in advance!
Watching this, I realize I don't play this genre of games too much; it's not really my thing. I always enjoy seeing what you guys like to play, though! I'd love to see some top tens about your best looking board games and your favorite board game artists. That'd be interesting!
Totally agree with this list. I was thinking about Betrayal At House On The Hill.. but nothing is really hidden from you in that game, just who the traitor is really. :D Great list guys. Awesome job!
Random question: Have you stopped doing those quick recap of all the review you did during the week? I loved them, I do not have the time to look at all the video you post, and that helped me choose the one that could interest me. :D
I have wanted to buy the Deception game for a few months but I keep failing to find a copy for a reasonable price. 180 pounds on Amazon is just a ridiculous rip-off. Any ideas?
1. Ultimate Werewolf: Inquisition + Full Moon expansion (new edition coming someday?) 2. One Night Ultimate Werewolf + Daybreak expansion 3. Resistance: Avalon 4. Masquerade (have not played with expansion yet) 5. Coup + expansion 6. One Night Ultimate Vampire 7. Ultimate Werewolf I am looking forward to One Night Ultimate Aliens for sure. I also need to acquire Salem.
I love Masquerade! I haven't bought the expansion because it says right on the box, that you can't combine it with the first. It's just a whole new set of cards you play with and the only reason you need the first one is I think for the coins and...what is that city hall or the court or whatever. So until I play the first one enough, I don't really want the second as I've heard it's not as fun. Masquerade as is, is fantastic I think.
+ohbeone Really? I thought it was a fully compatible expansion. Wow, thanks for letting me know, I will need to research it for sure. It is a good and funny game though. Much less serious than a standard Werewolf game, and none of the team animosity of something like Resistance. :)
+faxhandle oh shoot! I was wrong. I thought I read that before. I looked up the rules and a lot of the new ones require 8 or more players and there is an amazon review I remember reading where someone said they like all the originals better. But after looking more into it myself, the new roles sound pretty awesome so even though some might require a certain amount of people it all sounds amazing. So I'll probably get it actually lol.
+ohbeone Well that makes a big difference! I haven't played it in a few months, but I would like to play it again and see about the expansion. I'm not sure I could get 8 players except at the local game house. Thank you for letting me know, I will check out the box closely next time at the store. It did seem a little pricey for an expansion, but it is a good game so it might be worth it. Thank you!
+faxhandle I think last week I played with 7. So yeah 8+ could be a little difficult. I imagine you could still use the roles but they probably work best with that amount. of course there were a couple 6+, 4 or 5 8+ and the rest had no number restriction. worth taking a look but of course the core game is excellent as is with plenty of roles. but there's a couple that sound really cool in the expansion. if you Google the rules you can find a pdf of them and see for yourself. happy gaming!
It's pretty new (Well, the current version at least), but I've been loving Hoax lately. Feels like a fresh take on social deduction games where you often WANT people to doubt you and being too honest can be super dangerous (Admittedly that can be the case in some other games, but even in like The Resistance honesty is only really dangerous for the spies).
Salem seems very good, looks very similar to a game I love with the mechanism in which a person can infect the other players, the game is called "Panic Station".
I've played quite a bit of Two Rooms and a Boom and while I love it definitely is a fragile game. I feel it's much better for people who have no problem being the center of attention, but for people who hate being the center of attention they can just get shuffled and have no fun with it. Also I absolutely hate Werewolf because of the player elimination. If you don't have a good moderator with a larger group the people taken out those first couple of nights can be sitting around for a long time. I will concede, in my experience, it's a very divisive game. People either love or hate it.
I'm not hugely into hidden role games other than BSG, but agree with Zee and Sam that D:MiHK is far and away my fave of the short type, and works so well with 6-8. So fun.
Sam, your explanations are improving; more to the point. I'm happy to see this. :) Zee, you seemed somewhat off. Bored? Upset? Tired? Whatever the case, if there an issue, best wishes regarding it. All: I enjoy these Top 10s. They are always a treat to watch.
+Scottishstorm Yeah I also thought Zee seemed like he was upset, like he got some bad news or got in an argument right before they started filming. Made it kind of uncomfortable for me to watch. Hopefully he was just tired like you suggested.
Great #1 choice with Deception. Best purchase I ever made from a kickstarter. Especially if your in the law enforcement field, your friends and co-workers will love this game.
I think Saboteur is an underrated game in this genre. The thing I don't like about Resistance and why I would agree Deception outdoes it is the fact that it has no gameplay; the Missions/Quests/Sandwich Orders, depending on which of the slightly different versions you play, are so arbitrary and meaningless that the social aspect of the game has no anchor. You're not doing anything that these characters would be doing. If I just finished a mission with someone I don't immediately assume it failed because they were a secret traitor, the most common explanation is they are merely incompetent. I know Resistance and it's subsidiaries streamline things but I feel like this middleground is less interesting. Mafia-style games get straight to the point and the games I am highlighting above, with Battlestar Gllactica probably being the mos immersive and complex, put you in the place of the characters in a way that forces you figure out *how* you are going to meddle with the good players, or if someone else's action was really meddling or merely unfortunate.
hello, Dice tower is there any chance you can do some form of review on secret Hitler. i would love to see your views on the game, for me right now its the game i play the most a love playing.
Notes : werewolf isnot a random game except for first night, if you play it much enough, you will realize there is bunch of strageties and you could tell all the werewolfs after 3 days even if you are plain villager .
+Jean-François Soucy I think Jason used a very tricky strategy in the game of The Resistance they played with Richard Ham, the king of strategy that can infuriate people.
Go watch the live play with Rahdo, video 1. It wasn't really that bad though, just part of the game. Tom made a joke at Jason's expense and Jason played it up that he was really upset about it, which convinced them he was really a good guy. That was after he convinced the table someone else was the traitor. Honestly it was an amazing play.
+Jean-François Soucy Back in the day they had Ryan Strum as a rival on the show (it was all in good fun. I think they even asked him if it was ok if they always picked on him) there's also Stephen Buonocore. I suspect that its kind of the same deal with Jason. Tom has said that if he didn't like someone he wouldn't have them on the show. I think the same is true of Jason. That being said. I like Jason (a lot) but sometimes he can be qringe inducing.
Personality I wouldn't count either of them as hidden role games. Firstly you reveal your role and I think the main point of a hidden role game should be to conceal who you are. Secondly whilst I like if you role could change once or twice in a game (either with your knowledge or without) you play 18(?) different role cards in Libertalia which makes it feel that you don't have a role as such but are playing the gestalt entity that is "the crew". However, yes it is a much better game than Citadels.
I guess not technically a role game, hut I think of Betrayal at House on the Hill. The reveal of the "role" of the betrayer is a gameplay mechanic and not a role the player has from the outset, but I still think of it in terms of a secret role.
1. Bang! the card game: I think the DiceTower gang gave up on this game to early and many other folks as well. If you choose your expansions properly it won't be a long game. We play the game in less than an hour 90% of the time. If you use High Noon and/or A Fistful of Cards you set a timer in game length. Also if you do not use the Shadow feature of Gold Rush, you shorten the game as well. People want to use it to eliminate player elimination, but you gotta accept it in this kind of game, besides I offset this with 2 cards from High Noon and Fistful of Cards with the cards "Ghost Town" & "Dead Man". Dead Man allows the 1st player eliminated to come back, thus its not so bad, as it only brings back 1 player, and the 1st one out, so they don't feel they got the wrong end of the stick. And Ghost Town brings back everyone, but only for just 1 turn. Also there is a new expansion which also brings players back, with blue cards. Blue cards can be gotten rid of, but not easily, so it is a bit like Ghost Town where the come back may only be temporary. It has a nice balance. I also want to say the other half of Gold Rush speeds the game up because it encourages players to shoot other players, even their own team mates, to get gold. So I use this half of that expansion only. I want to add I have lots of Bling for Bang, which creates even more theme which everyone loves! And while I am not a country fan, I did gather themed music for the game. True, Bang the dice game is shorter, but if played this way Bang! the card game plays fairly short (less than an hour with 7). In fact, I talked my family into playing Bang! on Tuesday nite! 2. The Resistance: I played this at a convention last fall, and quite enjoyed it. It needs more plays and not sure how well my non-gaming family will like it. It seems it may have a learning curve. 3. Ultimate Werewolf: Deluxe Edition 2014 I am not sure why Tom promotes Ultimate Werewolf 2008, although he may have answered this in a Q&A, but not sure. It may be the changes are minimal and he just hasn't needed to upgrade. One year ago I went to a game convention and learned this game. I turned around and introduced it to my friends and family and it went over gangbusters! We estimate that 100 people have learned Werewolf from me bringing it into my circle. 4. Bang! the dice game: while I enjoy the card game more, it is true most people like this more, and can be easier to pull out. This is a popular filler I bring to my board game meetup. I am with Sam on this one, there is less luck in this game than Tom and Zee speak of, and the roles do matter. I have played the game often. 5. Good Cop Bad Cop: This game is hard to place, as some games are really fun and others fall to the way side. All the cool stuff Sam speaks about doesn't happen all the time in this game, and when it does, it's a blast. 6. Two Rooms and a Boom: I remember when Tom reviewed this game, and then got to play it at a game convention, and while the video was playing, I was hoping Tom would mention it, because he hasn't discussed this game since the review, that I know of (I don't listen to podcasts much though...). Since, like Tom I like Werewolf, I like this game quite well. And yeah it is easily broken, I played about 5 games at the con, and 1 or 2 didn't play well, and 1 was broken completely. But the other games were quite fun. 7. Battlestar Galactica: I played this the 1st time a couple months ago at a game convention for the 1st time. I quite enjoyed it. I definitely want to play it again. 8. Spyfall: This game has gone over well with my family but I think it has slowly started to fall in favor, it has with me. My oldest son likes it, and he requested it on Tuesday nite for Family Night. He won 2 rounds, we played about 5 rounds, I won one also. 9. Dead of Winter: this game had been on my "to play" list for a long time, and was another game I played a couple months back at the con for the 1st time. I think some of the game was spoiled by the teacher and 1 other payer, keeping me from enjoying the game. I liked it, and thought it similar to City of Horror but better, but not much better, not enough for me to buy it. But it definitely needs more plays. 10. Hoax: This is a recent release by FFG and a game I beta tested. I quite enjoyed it. And told FFG I would keep promoting the game. It seems to have flown under the radar, and needs more love. Although I think it needs a higher player count. Zee needs to take a look at this one. Deception: Murder in Hong Kong: I would try this game, but seems I won't like this kind of game. Salem: I think the theme may be a game breaker for me , just like Shadow Hunters. But I may wanna try Salem and see. Citadels: This game was one of the most disappointing games that has ever been on my "to play" list. I disliked it. It isn't on my "never to play" list and would play it again, but would never request it and would try to play something else. Shadows over Camelot: It took me 3 plays to decide how I like it. I am not a fan. It probably would be around 12 or 13 on my list. I will definitely play it again, but sold my copy. TimeBomb: This is actually on my "to play list". It may take the theme of Good Cop Bad Cop a bit too far, but would like to try it and see. Quicksand: I have played this game once and thought it okay. Probably would fall around my 14th or 15th on this list.
Why is Ultimate Werewolf at all better then One Night? My main gripe with it is that it has player elimination, which is just not fun for everyone playing the game. You get killed randomly the first night and then you're just out for the rest of the game. It's not cool. One Night, although it has fewer roles, is an infinitely better game because it really is just one night. It's fast paced and still has that paranoia factor in Werewolf. It doesn't have player elimination which makes it, imo, far superior.
Hey guys, I truly like and very much appreciate what you do, but don't let a too busy schedule burn out the possibly most important aspect of the hobby and... well everything: passion & love...
My playgroup has been having a pretty fun time playing Secret Hitler lately. Anticipating the physical version being released soon but the print and play hasn't detracted from the experience.
man where's the citadels love. love the game so much. I guess I can see how it's botderline..but it feels valid because the selection period and trying to figure out what people picked (especially in lower player counts) is a huge component of the game. even though it ends quickly and resets, faking people out and bluffing is super important so it feels even more applicable than red planet where everyone has the same cards to play.
also you gotta worry about more than the assassin! in 2 and 3 player where each person has 2 roles, every decision is a balancing act as each player chooses one and discards one, handing the rest back to the player. being able to pull off a nasty combination, or destroy a district, steal from the right person or fake out the thief is so critical to winning. I love how much strategy seeps out of such a simple game. also w creamy looking caramel gold. cmon! :)
Is Zee confusing 'Salem' with 'New Salem? Because I can find his 'New Salem' review but not his 'Salem' review. There is also a 2016 released 'Salem' which is not the same as Sam's 'Salem ' either
+Nick Johnson possibly. I know the review you are referring too. If you search on Amazon, search for Salem: card game is will show up. The box looks like it's an old book.
coup tho and i prefer secret hitle over resistance... and one night definitely makes a huge differences Mafia (basically werewolf) is my game of choice, favorite game of all time.
I'm really burned out on hidden role games. They almost always end up with 1 or 2 people dominating the game and if you don't go along and let them play the game for you then you're the traitor. It ends up becoming the co-op quarterbacking problem and it might as well be a solo game at that point, the opposite of what a social game should be.
Come on Sam you are apologising too much matey... Zee is quiet as I said below and Sam's apologising! I'm only 10 minutes in but will they pull off mission impossible style masks and reveal Jason and Rahdo ? :) :) :)
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I wonder where Secret Hitler would be on any of these lists now that it is available.
I love when Sam does the long winded preamble for each game. "This next game is on my list of stuff. And it's a game that's interesting for a number of reasons and I'm going to say what it is soon, but first I'm just going to say that I'm going to name a game any minute."
I am a simple man, I see a dice tower top 10 and i hit that like button.
You're apparently so simple that you leave unoriginal comments.
Simpleton
Don't be afraid of repeats, Sam. If you like a game and it hits a few different genres, you like it. Most games have elements a few different mechanics. If nothing else, it shows you're consistent. I watch these for the interaction between you guys and to learn good games to buy. If a game keeps popping up, that helps me as a consumer.
agreed. completely agree on the consumer aspect. if a game comes up over and over, it's worth checking out.
They should've written them down on cards, read them outloud, and had them vote on whose was whose. Hidden Identity Hidden Identity game.
This was a great one! You should do top ten variable powers!!
Good timing on the game I always rave about with Zee! Couldn't have written that!
Saboteur. With the expansion. Hands down my favorite hidden role game.
Glad to see Zee looking healthy and back on the screen
I need a separate "best hidden goals" list. "1 vs. all/traitor" games just are not my cup of tea, and they take to much space on this list. The most fun part of the discworld board game was figuring out what the goals of the other players where and sabotage them.
It has been 2 years guys.
Can we PLEASE have an updated version of this category???
You'd think deception would get a mass push by publishers with all the love it received.
For a change I also had some trouble to distinct between the categories, since in (social) deduction games, what you usually deduce ARE the hidden roles of the other players.
Well done guys, I own about 50% of the mentioned games and love them!
I agree with picking Citadels. If you wanna hinder someone, you need to figure out their role, even if it's just chosen for a round.
For hidden (team) role games, I also like Coup, Die Kutschfahrt zur Teufelsburg (eng./ger. Ed.) and Sultan of Karaya.
Would love to see a 'top 10 hidden movement' list
Agree 1000% that Deception is the best hidden role game out there. It takes the accusations of Werewolf and gives them a structure while also allowing the "moderator" to actually play the game. So glad Grey Fox picked this up and made a beautiful edition and Tom's review of the original game cued me in early to it's goodness.
I know this is an older list now but... Discworld: Ankh-Morpork is a brilliant hidden-role game, since the role basically determines your victory condition (not the points you get at the end, as with Lords of Waterdeep) - basically, if you accomplish your hidden objective first, you win... And so, everything you do is either geared up towards achieving your goal or to sabotaging others because you think you know who they are - and in this game, knowing who someone is is huge, it's not just a by-product of the gameplay.
This one is for Tom and Ultimate Werewolf. I normally make it a bit different from standard rules. Prior to game session I prepare scenarios, and roles for every person who will be in game. By "roles" I don't mean specific cards, but rather character they need to improvise. For example, setting is polar station with having dogs disappearing over last few nights. At station we have some scientists (geologists, meteorologists)... I don't know... whatever... make something up with something that might feed persons actual interests, profession, whatsoever. So, each person gets card with secret role, and each person has actual role that everyone knows and playing according to that character - creating a little story. That's normally pretty cool experience if you play it with right people. In fact, while most people say that Ultimate werewolf is sort of boring, same people where saying totally opposite when playing with predefined setting and scenario. Also, you can provide some interaction to dead players. For example, every dead becomes a ghost in villagers team, and providing them with specific information but based on d20 roll. Information may be some mimics, item, a letter, anagram, etc.
You guys shoujld check out "Secret Hitler". It replaced The Resistance for me.
Been waiting for this top ten way too long! Finally!
And now I'd say, in 2020:
#2. Blood Bound- VERY light, VERY quick (15 minutes) game where 2 teams gradually reveal information about everyone until one team knows enough to identify the other team's leader and kill them. Everyone gets a special role with a once per game power. This is the "one night" version of Shadow Hunters.
#1. Dark Moon- The best, and maybe the most obscure hidden role games. It's literally the "Battlestar Galactica express" fan mod made into a published game. A streamlined BSG (mostly by getting rid of movement and ship combat) where the big difference is you're using dice instead of cards for skill checks. Everyone rolls behind a screen, and submits one or more die in order to meet the challenge goal. The traitors want to sabotage efforts and will submit bad die rolls claiming, "I rolled bad!". Players have to deduce who is telling the truth and who is tanking. Think Liar's Dice meets BSG. The dice play SO much better than BSG's cards that I can never go back. Definitely my #1 hidden role game right now.
man you got to love the way Zee thinks.... that joke was amazing 46:44 - 47:03
+13shivan Indeed, that was a great joke.
Deception Murder in HK is my best Kickstarter purchase. Nice to see it get some love.
Citadels is definitely hidden role. I'm in Sam's court on this one! :)
Deception is such a good game. Glad to see it as No.1 game. I stupidly baulked on the KS, but preordered and completely worth it. Great list guys
I've only played the Avalon version of The Resistance, and I thought it was a fantastic game - but you have to have the right crowd for it - i.e. players capable of deception and those being able to confront accusations without taking offense or giving their role away. I am surprised its low down on Tom's list - but I hadn't heard of One Night Revolution (in the same theming of The Resistance) and so I am curious as to how it plays. Personally, I love Indie Board & Cards deduction games. Coup is another game in The Resistance universe that I really, really enjoy - and I am surprised it's not on anyone elses list here - because you can lie and claim you basically are any of two roles and let players decide whether they believe you enough or whether they want to call you out on it.
+gurtana Remember, being "low" on this list is still pretty high. I could have done my top 30.
The Dice Tower That's fair. I realise being position 10 is still saying it's a GREAT game to make the list, but I was perplexed that it wasn't higher - until I saw that One Night Revolution was probably the reason why it had displaced The Resistance. I really enjoyed the video though, thank you!
The Dice Tower i have a problem with resistance, someone help me. resistance loses the game if they fail the last mission. why would spies ever fail a mission? never fail, so that there is zero information going into the final. if one third are spies, and two thirds go on the final mission, the odds are good they'll send a spy. why would anyone ever fail a mission before the final? too many people love it for me to just say " broken". what am i missing?
The Resistance wins if they have three successful missions
TechVick they win if they win 3 or 5 missions, buy i thought they also must pass the last. meaning even if they win 4 out of 5 rounds they instantly lose if they fail the last mission. am i wrong?
According to the publisher Deception: Murder in Hong Kong has been reprinted and should hit store shelves this month.
And yes, this is the best Hidden Role Game. It's fantastic and replaces all the other ones I've played.
The "Overboard" series done by Polygon has a long list of one off gameplays, many of which are hidden role games of some kind or another, for anyone interested.
Tom 10, Zee 5, Sam 2 - For the Resistance, I have the expansions but never used them, because every time I'm teaching at least 1 person the game, but I think even the base game is great. (I do like Avalon as well).
Tom & Zee 9 - I've played Shadow Hunters, I like this game, don't own it.
Sam 9, Zee 2 - I love Spyfall, great game - it's a Hidden "Role" game in my opinion.
Sam 8 - I love Shadows Over Camelot, don't get a chance to play it as much as I would like.
Sam 7 - BattleStar Galactica, is my favorite game of all time, should be # 1, but glad to see this on the list at least.
Zee 6, Sam 3 - I do like BANG the dice game, never played the card game, I don't own this game, I do like this game, each time I play it.
Tom 5 - I do like Dead of Winter, I own it and like it over Shadows, it's a good game, and look forward to the expansion, not as good as BSG but a GREAT game.
Sam 4, Tom 3 - Love Good Cop, Bad Cop, again never played with the expansion, always teaching it to someone, I even played it yesterday.
Sam 1, Zee 1 - I do like Deception, Murder in Hong Kong, I don't own it but it is a fun game.
I had a lot of the same games as you guys, usually I'm closer only to just Sam's list. Glad to see a good selection. Hidden Roles is probably my favorite genre, so was looking forward to this list.
I really want to play deception murder in HK!!! Sounds amazing
Tom, where did Mafia de Cuba fall for you? I was expecting to hear about that.
Also, wasn't there a game that came out late last year that you all said was similar to Mutiny on the Little Blue?
Another edition of the Justify My List hour! You know what, I think that's still good entertainment.
I'm entertained by how much Sam felt the need to defend some pretty obvious choices like shadows over Camelot and spyfall
Gosh dangit you guys. Just when I think I don't need to buy new games I can't ever watch one of your lists without adding something. And now I guess I need Deception, Murder in Hong Kong. I already have Spyfall, Resistance, Bang the dice game, one night werewolf, so I thought I had enough of these types of games...but apparently not!! Also...Z sold me on quicksand. I love how he always has the most obscure entries and they almost always sound good to me.
You could tell they were going through the motions calling it in on this one. Doing a requested list they didn't care about. Especially the argument about Mr Jack.
I love "hidden role" games, so this was a really helpful and fun video!! Thanks Tom Vasel, Zee Garcia and Sam Healy (I hope I wrote you're names right)
Healey*
I think the biggest difference between Hidden Role games and games like Lords of Waterdeep (or even Ticket To Ride, where you have a secret objective), is that nobody in the latter group is on the same team.
By the way guys, I have been playing the print and play version of Secret Hitler and also on Tabletop Simulator for about 3 months and for me this is the ultimate hidden role game. So much more fun than Resistance. The theme just nails it. Can't wait till it comes out in April/ May this year.
Zdeněk Lukáš I'm playing it for the first time this evening! I'm excited.
Looking good Tom. Remember your announcement about challenging yourself to get in shape, and it definitely shows :) And thanks to all for these great videos.
I was really hoping at least two of you changed lists for this Top 10
I believe Shadow Hunters is either in print, or has been very recently, as I just purchased a copy this past week. Incidentally, it's also the biggest jump a game has ever had from my first playthrough to my second, in terms of how much I enjoyed it.
Where can I buy Zee's #8 game 'TimeBomb', mentioned at 9:30? I found the Cthulhu version 'Don't Mess with Cthulhu' but I'd rather have the original card game. Is it still available? Thanks in advance!
Watching this, I realize I don't play this genre of games too much; it's not really my thing. I always enjoy seeing what you guys like to play, though! I'd love to see some top tens about your best looking board games and your favorite board game artists. That'd be interesting!
+Phreakiboi I posted the best looking board games as an idea on the forums. Go vote on it cause I agree it would be a great list!
Discworld: Ankh-Morpork and Coup would definitely have made my list for this category..
Totally agree with this list. I was thinking about Betrayal At House On The Hill.. but nothing is really hidden from you in that game, just who the traitor is really. :D Great list guys. Awesome job!
Betrayal at House on the Hill is pretty unique in that not even the traitor knows who the traitor is until the haunt begins. Lol
Random question: Have you stopped doing those quick recap of all the review you did during the week? I loved them, I do not have the time to look at all the video you post, and that helped me choose the one that could interest me. :D
+Luca Invernizzi My guess is that the GAMA trade show has disrupted the normal flow of videos.
they will return
+Luca Invernizzi I don't think they would have had time to do them lately; that and there haven't been a huge number of reviews due to GAMA coverage
+Luca Invernizzi This was answered last week I believe, in a Q&A perhaps.
Is Lice Shower considered a hidden role game?
Ooh! I would love 'Awkward Party: the board game' with hidden roles :)
I'm surprised Coup didn't make anybody's list! It's been one of my favorite games since we got it.
Where can I get the big dices you always roll at the end to determine who goes first? :)
I have wanted to buy the Deception game for a few months but I keep failing to find a copy for a reasonable price. 180 pounds on Amazon is just a ridiculous rip-off. Any ideas?
+Zdeněk Lukáš The publisher has reprinted the game and it's on it's way to distribution!! Should be on store shelves this month!
1. Ultimate Werewolf: Inquisition + Full Moon expansion (new edition coming someday?)
2. One Night Ultimate Werewolf + Daybreak expansion
3. Resistance: Avalon
4. Masquerade (have not played with expansion yet)
5. Coup + expansion
6. One Night Ultimate Vampire
7. Ultimate Werewolf
I am looking forward to One Night Ultimate Aliens for sure. I also need to acquire Salem.
I love Masquerade! I haven't bought the expansion because it says right on the box, that you can't combine it with the first. It's just a whole new set of cards you play with and the only reason you need the first one is I think for the coins and...what is that city hall or the court or whatever. So until I play the first one enough, I don't really want the second as I've heard it's not as fun. Masquerade as is, is fantastic I think.
+ohbeone Really? I thought it was a fully compatible expansion. Wow, thanks for letting me know, I will need to research it for sure. It is a good and funny game though. Much less serious than a standard Werewolf game, and none of the team animosity of something like Resistance. :)
+faxhandle oh shoot! I was wrong. I thought I read that before. I looked up the rules and a lot of the new ones require 8 or more players and there is an amazon review I remember reading where someone said they like all the originals better. But after looking more into it myself, the new roles sound pretty awesome so even though some might require a certain amount of people it all sounds amazing. So I'll probably get it actually lol.
+ohbeone Well that makes a big difference! I haven't played it in a few months, but I would like to play it again and see about the expansion. I'm not sure I could get 8 players except at the local game house. Thank you for letting me know, I will check out the box closely next time at the store. It did seem a little pricey for an expansion, but it is a good game so it might be worth it. Thank you!
+faxhandle I think last week I played with 7. So yeah 8+ could be a little difficult. I imagine you could still use the roles but they probably work best with that amount. of course there were a couple 6+, 4 or 5 8+ and the rest had no number restriction. worth taking a look but of course the core game is excellent as is with plenty of roles. but there's a couple that sound really cool in the expansion. if you Google the rules you can find a pdf of them and see for yourself. happy gaming!
It's pretty new (Well, the current version at least), but I've been loving Hoax lately. Feels like a fresh take on social deduction games where you often WANT people to doubt you and being too honest can be super dangerous (Admittedly that can be the case in some other games, but even in like The Resistance honesty is only really dangerous for the spies).
Salem seems very good, looks very similar to a game I love with the mechanism in which a person can infect the other players, the game is called "Panic Station".
Man, now I want to see that Resistance game you guys played...
I've played quite a bit of Two Rooms and a Boom and while I love it definitely is a fragile game. I feel it's much better for people who have no problem being the center of attention, but for people who hate being the center of attention they can just get shuffled and have no fun with it.
Also I absolutely hate Werewolf because of the player elimination. If you don't have a good moderator with a larger group the people taken out those first couple of nights can be sitting around for a long time. I will concede, in my experience, it's a very divisive game. People either love or hate it.
Thumbs up for you, Tom, for picking my favorite hidden role game as your number1! :-)
I'm not hugely into hidden role games other than BSG, but agree with Zee and Sam that D:MiHK is far and away my fave of the short type, and works so well with 6-8. So fun.
Sam, your explanations are improving; more to the point. I'm happy to see this. :)
Zee, you seemed somewhat off. Bored? Upset? Tired? Whatever the case, if there an issue, best wishes regarding it.
All: I enjoy these Top 10s. They are always a treat to watch.
+Scottishstorm Yeah I also thought Zee seemed like he was upset, like he got some bad news or got in an argument right before they started filming. Made it kind of uncomfortable for me to watch. Hopefully he was just tired like you suggested.
+Scottishstorm I think he was sick again recently.
"Zee doesn't tell the truth even when we lie about it" :D
Great #1 choice with Deception. Best purchase I ever made from a kickstarter. Especially if your in the law enforcement field, your friends and co-workers will love this game.
@@readilium3432 Damn i guess this will give u some crazy Saw movie Murder ideas 😂 Enjoy the game 😎🙏
With all that thunder you should have quickly filmed a Halloween Top 10.
Should do a top 10 large party games (at least 8-10+)!
I think Saboteur is an underrated game in this genre. The thing I don't like about Resistance and why I would agree Deception outdoes it is the fact that it has no gameplay; the Missions/Quests/Sandwich Orders, depending on which of the slightly different versions you play, are so arbitrary and meaningless that the social aspect of the game has no anchor. You're not doing anything that these characters would be doing. If I just finished a mission with someone I don't immediately assume it failed because they were a secret traitor, the most common explanation is they are merely incompetent. I know Resistance and it's subsidiaries streamline things but I feel like this middleground is less interesting. Mafia-style games get straight to the point and the games I am highlighting above, with Battlestar Gllactica probably being the mos immersive and complex, put you in the place of the characters in a way that forces you figure out *how* you are going to meddle with the good players, or if someone else's action was really meddling or merely unfortunate.
So enteraining but something was wrong with Zee this time, I don't know just a feeling.
+Daniel Engel felt the same way
Yeah - I agree... He seemed a bit "off" and lethargic. Normally he's chatty and witty. I hope he's okay!
+Daniel Engel I believe he was sick again recently.
+Daniel Engel Agreed, but he seemed to perk up by the end.
+Daniel Engel IMHO they all seemed a bit burned out, perhaps still recovering from Vegas. ;)
Take a break and recharge guys!
Shadow hunters are not complicated at all , very good game !
Top ten Superhero games!
hello, Dice tower is there any chance you can do some form of review on secret Hitler. i would love to see your views on the game, for me right now its the game i play the most a love playing.
The Mutiny on the Little Blue sounds a lot like the game Meuterer (which I think inspired citadels.)
Awesome Video
Secret Hitler is my favorite hidden role game/ deduction game.
Notes : werewolf isnot a random game except for first night, if you play it much enough, you will realize there is bunch of strageties and you could tell all the werewolfs after 3 days even if you are plain villager .
I'd like to hear the backstory between Jason and everybody else.
+Jean-François Soucy
I think Jason used a very tricky strategy in the game of The Resistance they played with Richard Ham, the king of strategy that can infuriate people.
+Jean-François Soucy What happened?
Go watch the live play with Rahdo, video 1. It wasn't really that bad though, just part of the game. Tom made a joke at Jason's expense and Jason played it up that he was really upset about it, which convinced them he was really a good guy. That was after he convinced the table someone else was the traitor. Honestly it was an amazing play.
+Jean-François Soucy Back in the day they had Ryan Strum as a rival on the show (it was all in good fun. I think they even asked him if it was ok if they always picked on him) there's also Stephen Buonocore. I suspect that its kind of the same deal with Jason. Tom has said that if he didn't like someone he wouldn't have them on the show. I think the same is true of Jason. That being said. I like Jason (a lot) but sometimes he can be qringe inducing.
No Coup??!!
+Patrick Doss Coup is more of a bluffing game, and you have two "roles" anyway.
still hidden
+Patrick Doss I was really expecting coup!
No roles
+Chris Meyer Ambassador, Captain, Duke, Assassin...etc.
Libertalia?
Haven't played it. But I hear it replaces Citadels. If so, is it better as a hidden roles game?
Personality I wouldn't count either of them as hidden role games. Firstly you reveal your role and I think the main point of a hidden role game should be to conceal who you are. Secondly whilst I like if you role could change once or twice in a game (either with your knowledge or without) you play 18(?) different role cards in Libertalia which makes it feel that you don't have a role as such but are playing the gestalt entity that is "the crew".
However, yes it is a much better game than Citadels.
I guess not technically a role game, hut I think of Betrayal at House on the Hill. The reveal of the "role" of the betrayer is a gameplay mechanic and not a role the player has from the outset, but I still think of it in terms of a secret role.
And pardon the typos/bad autocorrects. At the hospital next to my kid at three in the morning typing on a mobile phone.
1. Bang! the card game: I think the DiceTower gang gave up on this game to early and many other folks as well. If you choose your expansions properly it won't be a long game. We play the game in less than an hour 90% of the time.
If you use High Noon and/or A Fistful of Cards you set a timer in game length. Also if you do not use the Shadow feature of Gold Rush, you shorten the game as well. People want to use it to eliminate player elimination, but you gotta accept it in this kind of game, besides I offset this with 2 cards from High Noon and Fistful of Cards with the cards "Ghost Town" & "Dead Man". Dead Man allows the 1st player eliminated to come back, thus its not so bad, as it only brings back 1 player, and the 1st one out, so they don't feel they got the wrong end of the stick. And Ghost Town brings back everyone, but only for just 1 turn. Also there is a new expansion which also brings players back, with blue cards. Blue cards can be gotten rid of, but not easily, so it is a bit like Ghost Town where the come back may only be temporary. It has a nice balance.
I also want to say the other half of Gold Rush speeds the game up because it encourages players to shoot other players, even their own team mates, to get gold. So I use this half of that expansion only.
I want to add I have lots of Bling for Bang, which creates even more theme which everyone loves! And while I am not a country fan, I did gather themed music for the game.
True, Bang the dice game is shorter, but if played this way Bang! the card game plays fairly short (less than an hour with 7).
In fact, I talked my family into playing Bang! on Tuesday nite!
2. The Resistance: I played this at a convention last fall, and quite enjoyed it. It needs more plays and not sure how well my non-gaming family will like it. It seems it may have a learning curve.
3. Ultimate Werewolf: Deluxe Edition 2014 I am not sure why Tom promotes Ultimate Werewolf 2008, although he may have answered this in a Q&A, but not sure. It may be the changes are minimal and he just hasn't needed to upgrade.
One year ago I went to a game convention and learned this game. I turned around and introduced it to my friends and family and it went over gangbusters! We estimate that 100 people have learned Werewolf from me bringing it into my circle.
4. Bang! the dice game: while I enjoy the card game more, it is true most people like this more, and can be easier to pull out. This is a popular filler I bring to my board game meetup. I am with Sam on this one, there is less luck in this game than Tom and Zee speak of, and the roles do matter. I have played the game often.
5. Good Cop Bad Cop: This game is hard to place, as some games are really fun and others fall to the way side. All the cool stuff Sam speaks about doesn't happen all the time in this game, and when it does, it's a blast.
6. Two Rooms and a Boom: I remember when Tom reviewed this game, and then got to play it at a game convention, and while the video was playing, I was hoping Tom would mention it, because he hasn't discussed this game since the review, that I know of (I don't listen to podcasts much though...). Since, like Tom I like Werewolf, I like this game quite well. And yeah it is easily broken, I played about 5 games at the con, and 1 or 2 didn't play well, and 1 was broken completely. But the other games were quite fun.
7. Battlestar Galactica: I played this the 1st time a couple months ago at a game convention for the 1st time. I quite enjoyed it. I definitely want to play it again.
8. Spyfall: This game has gone over well with my family but I think it has slowly started to fall in favor, it has with me. My oldest son likes it, and he requested it on Tuesday nite for Family Night. He won 2 rounds, we played about 5 rounds, I won one also.
9. Dead of Winter: this game had been on my "to play" list for a long time, and was another game I played a couple months back at the con for the 1st time. I think some of the game was spoiled by the teacher and 1 other payer, keeping me from enjoying the game. I liked it, and thought it similar to City of Horror but better, but not much better, not enough for me to buy it. But it definitely needs more plays.
10. Hoax: This is a recent release by FFG and a game I beta tested. I quite enjoyed it. And told FFG I would keep promoting the game. It seems to have flown under the radar, and needs more love. Although I think it needs a higher player count. Zee needs to take a look at this one.
Deception: Murder in Hong Kong: I would try this game, but seems I won't like this kind of game.
Salem: I think the theme may be a game breaker for me , just like Shadow Hunters. But I may wanna try Salem and see.
Citadels: This game was one of the most disappointing games that has ever been on my "to play" list. I disliked it. It isn't on my "never to play" list and would play it again, but would never request it and would try to play something else.
Shadows over Camelot: It took me 3 plays to decide how I like it. I am not a fan. It probably would be around 12 or 13 on my list. I will definitely play it again, but sold my copy.
TimeBomb: This is actually on my "to play list". It may take the theme of Good Cop Bad Cop a bit too far, but would like to try it and see.
Quicksand: I have played this game once and thought it okay. Probably would fall around my 14th or 15th on this list.
This feels like you're all tired and not "into" this list
Werewolf Number 1 AHAHAHAHAHAHA Tom are you kidding me? :D
I'm surprised Coup was never mentioned. It's loads of fun but perhaps you never tried it or simply forgot about it.
I thought that.
+Ryan Wilshere A guess here, but on Zee's short list.
I just tried Iello's Time Bomb (9:26) and it was brilliant, my students loved it.
I'm surprised they didn't mention Coup.
Why is Ultimate Werewolf at all better then One Night? My main gripe with it is that it has player elimination, which is just not fun for everyone playing the game. You get killed randomly the first night and then you're just out for the rest of the game. It's not cool. One Night, although it has fewer roles, is an infinitely better game because it really is just one night. It's fast paced and still has that paranoia factor in Werewolf. It doesn't have player elimination which makes it, imo, far superior.
Hey guys, I truly like and very much appreciate what you do, but don't let a too busy schedule burn out the possibly most important aspect of the hobby and... well everything: passion & love...
Oh, and I am not saying you lost this already... Obviously not :))
My playgroup has been having a pretty fun time playing Secret Hitler lately. Anticipating the physical version being released soon but the print and play hasn't detracted from the experience.
Zee cracks me up "let me go get some yogurt"
Zee, did you lose the trimming game or was the less beard a deliberate choice?
man where's the citadels love. love the game so much. I guess I can see how it's botderline..but it feels valid because the selection period and trying to figure out what people picked (especially in lower player counts) is a huge component of the game. even though it ends quickly and resets, faking people out and bluffing is super important so it feels even more applicable than red planet where everyone has the same cards to play.
also you gotta worry about more than the assassin! in 2 and 3 player where each person has 2 roles, every decision is a balancing act as each player chooses one and discards one, handing the rest back to the player. being able to pull off a nasty combination, or destroy a district, steal from the right person or fake out the thief is so critical to winning. I love how much strategy seeps out of such a simple game. also w creamy looking caramel gold. cmon! :)
I would have been disappointed to have not seen citadels on this list. technicalities aside it's a great game, good pick.
+Sharrod Smith One of the most disappointing games ever on my "to play" list. Don't like it. Sorry.
secret hitler, for me, replaced Resistance and werewolf. but it's not out yet and is only playable in the printable version or on tabletop simulator
Umm ok, I'm going to guess that Sam had the role of "Tanner", Zee had "Spy" and Tom was "Kingpin".
Is Zee confusing 'Salem' with 'New Salem? Because I can find his 'New Salem' review but not his 'Salem' review. There is also a 2016 released 'Salem' which is not the same as Sam's 'Salem ' either
Nope, there is a game that came out called Salem. His review may have not been posted yet.
+LibertarianC So Sam's Salem is the Same Salem as Zee's Salem?
+Nick Johnson possibly. I know the review you are referring too. If you search on Amazon, search for Salem: card game is will show up. The box looks like it's an old book.
Yeah, it actually hasn't been posted yet.
coup tho and i prefer secret hitle over resistance... and one night definitely makes a huge differences Mafia (basically werewolf) is my game of choice, favorite game of all time.
Zee's my favorite and I knew from the start that he was strange in this list. Also Sam looked out of his game. Hope you guys feel better now :)
I'm really burned out on hidden role games. They almost always end up with 1 or 2 people dominating the game and if you don't go along and let them play the game for you then you're the traitor. It ends up becoming the co-op quarterbacking problem and it might as well be a solo game at that point, the opposite of what a social game should be.
How DARE you accuse me of watching these videos out of order!?!?!!! ;) Lulz
Mr. Jack is 100% legit on the list
Come on Sam you are apologising too much matey... Zee is quiet as I said below and Sam's apologising! I'm only 10 minutes in but will they pull off mission impossible style masks and reveal Jason and Rahdo ? :) :) :)
Well played, sir! ;-)
Stay Away is one of the greatest hidden role games I've ever played.
If you didn't try it yet, give it a shot :)