When I was a member I would absolutely NOT go into a Starbucks because I was taught to avoid "even the appearance of evil". Now missionaries will meet people at Starbucks. It's so BIZARRE!!!
The judgment as to whether or not someone is Mormon enough seems to come down to whether someone agrees to feel bad about their “sins” and condemn themselves or not.
As a post-Mormon woman, I’ve always had a very strong inner voice that I felt comfortable vocalizing. It got me in lots of trouble advocating for myself against Dad/Bishops 😅
Jerado is right that Mormonism is fascinating to those of us who have never lived it. I grew up evangelical Christian & although purity culture is not unique to Mormonism, it is expressed very differently in Mormon culture. I would never have been denied entry to a place of worship or have been expected to tell a religious leader about my personal experiences. Bishop interviews, temple rituals, worthiness being a criteria for admission, the obsession with conformity to doctrine, the suppression of dissent, garments, etc are all outside the experience of non-Mormon Christians. Not to mention the history of polygamy and the Book of Mormon. Mormon religion and culture are worlds apart from the Christian experience of non-Mormons.
2:30:39 just my two cents in response to her defense of Whitney’s behavior…. You are right, in that Whitney has valid emotional triggers, feelings and issues that she responds to with toxic/avoidant behavior, specifically your comments that Whitney: “Leans avoidant when she has feelings that are hard to manage” and “she struggles to accept responsibility because she is so insecure in herself and her sense of self is so weak” You are correct, those are all valid emotional triggers and feelings… and if this was a child or teen-to-early/mid twenties person I could understand justifying her behavior by explaining the reasons behind her behavior and how poorly she treats people close to her when she is “triggered”… But I am sorry (not sorry) Whitney is too old and emotionally intelligent to be getting a free pass on being an energy vampire and making her emotional dysfunction the problem and responsibility of her family and her friend group… I was raised in a toxic family environment and the most freeing mantra my therapist offered me that I’ve repeated over and over for the last 10+ years is this: “Your mental health is NOT your fault. But it IS your responsibility.” For me, that means that there is no reason to continuously excuse the abusive and toxic behavior of other adults in our lives. There has to be a point where someone is held accountable for their behavior and how they treat the people that love them and support them. We don’t just have to blindly continue to engage in a 1-way abusive/toxic relationship or friendship because we know that deep down the person has valid trauma or emotional triggers that drive their awful behavior. At some point it is okay for us to hold them accountable for their behavior and draw a firm boundary with any person that is an energy vampire and doesn’t have any interest in changing and working on being a better friend, lover, family member, etc.. (sorry, rant over!!😂)
I'm so surprised that Whitney's husband's activity on Tender or whichever site it was their entire marriage was swept under the rug after she revealed it. Her saying he was "experimenting" led people (including me) to think he may be gay. Things may not be as simple as she made them seem. I was surprised she got pregnant so soon after.
Great rant! I’ve been having this rant in my head for the past month and as I result I’ve finally cut off my ex who keeps being toxic. It’s do great that we have the ability to do this these days.
I think Taylor was sensing that Dakota was lying, but my thought is that he isn't lying about cheating, he's lying about his sobriety or some other addiction issue. In some of his scenes, I got the vibe that he was still using. I have similar thoughts about Zac during the Vegas trip. Addicts become really dysregulated when using, in my experience, so I think that plays into the dynamics of both relationships.
Fun episode! Re. the point about these women likely leaving the church at some point, it's interesting that Sam brought up that they have the wealth to do so. This is a huge difference from the days when we women were told that it was a sin to work, that our job was to care for our children and husband, and it was the man's role to be the breadwinner. These women flipped the script, so they have a way OUT of bad marriages within the church that so many of us did not.
I was uninvited from my Niece's baby blessing by my own mother. She was basically threatening to not go to the baby blessing if I was there. So my mom had my dad ask me not to go. I got super drunk that night and burned all my journals from before I left the church. Pre-Mission Journals, Mission Journals, and a few journals from my time at BYU. I also burned all my missionary letters I sent home and the ones I received. I burned a bunch of other stuff too. It felt cathartic and amazing at the time but sometimes I wish I would have digitized those journals or something
As a never mo, I agree that the show is a net negative. If I were looking to find out about Mormonism as faith possibility, I wouldn't be able to see post the fact that Zac and Dakota are obvious emotional abusers and their church completely enables that with their patriarchy teachings. Controlling and trying to limit friendships, complete lack of boundaries (especially the Vegas episode for both guys), anger rather than sympathy at their partner hurting, and absolutely no care about sabotaging their partners health and well being. All classic narcissistic abuse red flags.
I don't watch TV or follow trending issues, but I do enjoy culty podcasts! I had to pop in the comment section just after it was mentioned that Whitney appeared to smile as things turned sour around the "truth box". Hearing that solifidied my view of Whitney being the modern version of Nellie from Little House On The Prairie!
2:50:20 maybe Taylor isn’t sure that she wants to commit to being married to another Mormon man??? Her issue might be that she knows she doesn’t want to get married in the temple and “rehab” herself in all the ways Dakota wants her to (ie: temple marriage, church attendance, etc) everything that Taylor does shows she does NOT want the Mormon life. So she probably is struggling with envisioning herself with a partner that has “fallen in love with her” yet constantly tells her how much looks forward to all the ways she is going to change and conform to his idea of what makes a proper wife.
Maybe Taylor has matured enough to know she doesn't want to be married to a recovering drug addict. With her own struggles and poor choices, he is the last thing she needs. Dealing with a drug addict is a struggle for everyone involved regardless of their own life choices.
Update: Thank you for the changes! As a note for the editor: the section breaks in this video's progress bar and the timestamps in the description-Recap of Episode One, Brand deals, How the dad talked to Dakota, etc.-were copied and pasted from the Part 1 video; they're not describing this Part 2 video at all. Correct timestamps and section descriptions would be appreciated.
We had some of this happen in our family with our Mom when she left the church. Im so sorry that happened to you. I hope it gets better! It has in our family but it took a lot of work
On the segment about what exactly it means to be a “Mormon” I’ve found yet another strong parallel to my experience as an ex-Catholic, on the one hand most North American and western European Catholics have been ignoring their church leadership on many things (mainly birth control) for more than 50 years now at least and so the more devout ones, like I used to be, tend to really look down on them as being basically “cafeteria” believers that need to be thrown out basically (at least that’s what I believed at my most radicalized). Another example is that the term Jack Mormon might be a direct equivalent to what may be called a cultural Catholic or at least that’s my impression, sometimes there’s the contradictory attitude that basically you might as well leave if you’re not going to listen to the Church on anything but once you actually do some might claim that somehow you’re still in (unlike the LDS church it’s pretty much impossible to truly leave the Catholic Church, even those excommunicated are still considered to be part of the fold in some way as when you’re baptized you’re part of the community forever at least on paper). Thus we have the infamous saying “once a Catholic always a Catholic” which is sometimes debated in the few online spaces we have for us and I don’t know if there’s an equivalent for Mormons. Also since Catholicism is one of the few religions that could be said to be truly global there’s no one Catholic “culture” as a Catholic raised in Mexico (like I was) might have a pretty different experience with the Church than someone raised in Poland or Hungary for example. I’m still impressed that the Mormons got their own state (which can’t be said for most other denominations) but perhaps that’s another thing that may limit how widespread “Mormon culture” might be outside of Utah even though there’s supposed to be members worldwide. If there’s more than one Mormon culture do you think a member living in Mexico or Peru might have a different relationship to the Church than a member living in Utah and the Morridor?
Had my husband watch the first episode with me and he commented on how much older these women looked than their actual age. He couldn’t believe some were in their early 20’s. I think all the procedures these women and so many other Utah women are getting is actually prematurely aging them even though they think it’s the opposite.
At 8:58. Are sinners real Mormons? In Utah there is a culture of perfectionism for Mormons. I am sure many Mormons in Utah would use a hierarchy ranking of sins. For example a little white lie is far less serious than engaging in swinging. Of course, many people also rationalize their sins a no big deal since it hurts nobody. Mormons of course are all sinners, but judgement reigns supreme in Utah as to who fits an "ideal type" of Mormon.
Hi, Pisces Queen here, and Russell M. Nelson is absolutely NOT a pisces king. He was born on September 9, making him a Virgo. We pisces do not claim him.
I watched that baby blessing... as a nevermo but avid MSP listener. And I thought I knew a lot... I didn't. I had heard of bearing "testimony" on MSP but seeing it was a whole other thing.
Having lived in and out of activity for the last 20 years and being the "sinner" of my family, I can relate to the stories of being left out of things I'd love to been there to celebrate. Even if I don't believe, I still love my family and would be supportive. Glad to say my family has come a long way and now that there are several of us who have left the church, no one is ever left out. But it took a lot of work and communication to get there. We have a very mixed bag family (5 of us have left, 2 mixed faith marriages, one same sex marriage, 1 inactive marriage, me a single non believing mom, we have divorce and blending) but I feel lucky that we do have LOVE
I found it so interesting that the other women were so enthusiastic about condemning Whitney's flaws and mistakes. And anytime she started to open up about her flaws, or be vulnerable, they seemed to be foaming at the mouth to throw it back at her. Sure Whitney clearly cares about how she is perceived, and also a bit of a mean girl. But she isn't alone in this on the cast. I laughed a lot every time the other women were complaining, on and on and on, about Whitney making herself the center of attention. They didn't have the awareness to simply not talk about it, so they made her the center of attention. I think you all are spot on about their development being delayed. The behavior of these women is more like teenage girls, not how we typically see women in their twenties and thirties. It is super revealing when the mother of Taylor involves herself.
I decided to give this show a shot to see how they represented Mormonism. I couldn't get through more than 15 minutes of the first episode. Kudos to you guys for being able to.
Whitney was the only one shown to have blue papers for the truth box. I wonder if she was the one who wrote those questions they read off that started all the drama.
My husband's sister got married. We hadn't heard anything about when the sealing was. So my husband asked and she told him they weren't doing "the whole people waiting outside thing." Later pictures came in on social media of my husband's entire family outside the temple together except for us. Including his "less active" brother and his brother's girlfriend who was never a member. So we found out people were invited to wait outside. Just not us who had told the family we left the church. I will admit my sister in law has her own issues and has never liked me, but I think we would've been invited still if we hadn't left.
I would definitely think that is in at least of a few of their futures. Several probably wouldn’t go like Taylor. Depending on where she is or how she is feeling about actually wanting to be member anymore. But then she opens up a really big obvious can of worms she may not be ready for depending on how devout her parents and family ultimately are.
I think there's a 50/50 chance of that happening because the rules seem to change when one of their members is in the spotlight, or has some kind of celebrity status.
Ok I’m not Mormon so this is really difficult for me to digest. So you’re saying if you do something wrong in your life, you have to go to a disciplinary meeting? Aren’t we free people? Who can make someone go to a disciplinary meeting? What a crazy cult!
I'm a Whitney apologist too ✋🏼Also, while I agree Dakota has red flags, I don't think we can fault him for getting frustrated that Taylor is continually threatening to leave him if something comes out about him being unfaithful to her. Either be *in* the relationship or don't. Don't keep holding your trust issues over his head. If you don't trust him, end it and let him go find someone else. He keeps trying to show that he's committed and serious about their relationship and she's dangling a carrot, essentially.
I get uninvited from family events too. Weddings (even those outside of the temple of my other non Mormon family members) anything at church, and probably things that I don’t even know about because of how loud I am about being non Mormon.
I'm sure. Bret hanging out with these silly immature women makes me have second hand embarrassment for him. It makes him seem so cringe. Hopefully they don't allow him to hold the priesthood.
I’m from a wealthy area of LA and can say I do not believe Botox in early 20s is common at all among my peers. That said, I’m a millennial, and I know so much has changed with gen z and social media filters. Also, I think it’d be cool if you guys had a gen z on to discuss the show since almost all of the cast are gen z!
These "wives" series make me so mad. I don't care if it's Mormons, NYC, Atlanta, religious, non-religious, whatever. If you're single, do whatever the he!! you want. When there are children involved, they should be protected at all costs. Bringing random men into your childrens' lives is extremely risky!
Regarding John’s comments about carrying a baby around in Human Development class, they do that it in the high schools around my area (Massachusetts) and the baby simulators are fairly advanced and can track all sorts of behaviors that the student is supposed to perform.
The “true” Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints members need a way to signal that they are still the star-bellied Sneetches, even if the stars upon thars have become less differentiating than they did in the past when the stars had clearer visible lines.
I remember my mom begging me “not to join the anti Mormon faction” when I left at 17. I think she was afraid I would make the church look bad. But I just now realized I don’t need to feel guilty for finding a community. Bcuz it’s not exmo who make it look bad. the church itself makes it look bad. And the members can’t escape it, bcuz the more they lie or even admit problematic issues, they simply can’t avoid making it look bad bcuz it is.. the truth makes it look bad. And isnt the Holy Spirit supposed to be a witness of truth? You could argue they are denying the Holy Spirit by obfuscating the truth. And my point isn’t to judge members, it’s simply pointing out the irony that they fear truth like it’s bad, while proclaiming to be “the only true church”. I will leave it at that bcuz I’ve probably offended enough people.
Catholics aren’t the only Christians who baptize infants. Baptism is THE most sacred sacrament in non-Mormon Christianity. It’s the dedication of a life to Christ and in Catholic and mainline Christian traditions, it’s a very moving ritual where the parents also covenant with God.
Maybe the support you describe for mothers of the bride who have left active membership could be given to non Mormon parents as well. To have your child take on this ie. Faith , and then be excluded from their wedding must be awful.
I think the drinking was super 1:30:47 disrespectful and also shows a social immaturity of not understanding appropriate social behaviour around drinking. Which I think is a consequence of having no context where drinking isn’t “evil”, so not understanding drinking appropriately. My friends ex Mormons sister does this regularly in their Mormon parents home and it’s so uncomfortable for everyone.
Thank you for having the discussion about the disrespect of bringing the alcohol to the faithful parent’s house. Now consider that the baby blessing took place at Zack’s parent’s house. I don’t really agree with the disinviting of the “sinners”, however I could understand why Zack might not want them to come because they clearly might not be able to respect Mormon traditions. You state it’s a patriarchy control thing, which it could be, but you all don’t seem to even consider that it might be a lack of trust in their behavior since they’ve done it before.
I agree. If people came to my devout Mormon parents' or in-laws' home and proceeded to drink, I would not be inclined to invite them back, especially to celebrate a sacred event for my child. That's not to say non Mormons shouldn't be invited but they need to be mature enough to respect the culture. These women are extremely immature.
I'm an ex-Mormon and I myself think people should NOT be included or invited to religious events if it takes away from that person's spiritual/religious experience. If someone is getting baptized and doesn't feel comfortable with a person or group of people being there, if they feel like those people take away from "the spirit" or will cause drama/chaos, then they have the right to exclude those people. No one is entitled to be apart of anyone's celebration/party/experience (especially if they aren't going to show consideration or respect for that person or event).
I'm glad John remembers the church before these younger people experienced it. There were a lot more unspoken standards and barriers that erroded between his generation and theirs.
I would really like to get your opinion on the whole chippendale drama…it kind of feels like a lot of excuses are made for Mormons to do things that might be questionable because of the whole repression of sexuality. There is nothing wrong going to the chippendales, but if you are going to go then there should be an open discussion between the partners. I don’t agree with the extreme reaction of the men but it was also not okay to take the women to a show as a surprise without them knowing. I don’t know, ogling half naked men dancing around in explicitly sexual ways without discussing that with your partner is disrespectful. My husband and I are not traditional and not religious but I know he would be hurt if I go to something like that without talking about it with him, it’s just disrespectful. And I would feel the same way if he did that to me. That whole episode did not sit well with me, it was basically a set up to get partners fighting. Don’t like the husband/boyfriend (creepily controlling) but acting like they should just be 100% fine with it feels like gaslighting.
I agree. I even question if this group of women is actually “friends”. They seem to enjoy creating rifts in relationships with each other and those outside the groups. Would a friend “surprise” a friend with an activity that they KNOW would be uncomfortable in the least and at most outright against their beliefs? Doesn’t sound like a friend to me.
About the laughing gas... i never did it. But it was spoken in hushed terms when we got "GOOD" meds or got this or that. Like someone at church said i shouldnt have been put under when getting my appendex taken out but there were members saying laughing gas is better or worse. So honestly no way to win.
Before I was married, I was told by family members not to have anal or oral sex, and I’ve also heard of some church leaders talking to couples about it. So I think that it is still seen as a sin in some circles.
I saw in another video, in defense of the drinking at Zack's, that they were anyways all going to the club after to drink. So they were having pre drinks and it shows that they weren't this disrescpectful.
@brittney did you know Dakota is from Middleton originally? Really has nothing to do with anything, but I feel like it makes him feel more human when I'm like oh he's actually from here 😂
I think with the sinners vs saints it put something in view that is really not talked a lot about utah Mormon culture, and how if you are with the church you and against the church. I grew up in utah not Mormon I have lost many friends from not being Mormon. And have felt this mentality for most of childhood and still today. It's taken lots of therapy to help recognize that.
My Mom does not like the smell of coffee so when she comes over to my house I do my coffee out in my garage and have a refrigerator next to it for my creamers. Then when I'm leaving for the day to go to work I can just fill up my mug and put all the cream I want into it
I didn't notice Whitney smiling at others being kind of hurt and criticized harshly, but I am not surprised. She exhibits a lot of narcissistic behavior!
1:10:20 - not just 'so Mormon', but so human....which means that being in the church has not helped them act any better than an average human that is not in the church.
Can we talk about Demi meeting her husband at 9 years old?! And she said she had a crush on him then and that as soon as she turns 18, he follows her on Insta?? This is so creepy and needs to be talked about
Born and bred in the LDS church and yes these are real Mormons. I know many members similar to them. Some couples I know in church come immediately to my mind when I watch the show. My bf in church was taken back to the hotel room of an area seventy after a young single adult’s fireside. One of my stake president’s was caught with his garments down in the temple (not with his wife).. my bishop was ‘living the higher law.’ I was bullied by many of my peers at church for being ‘too good’ trying too hard.. 😅
I think all of the shots of the churches with crosses are interesting... definitely not a mormon thing. The producers missed the opportunity to use a meeting house steeple haha lord knows there are plenty to choose from.
This whole narrative that they're not Mormon is kind of annoying. I'm sure they never bothered to date or marry any random guys at church but the attempt to distance seems more for PR purposes by the cultists.
Thank you for bringing up the tithing! They take these women’s influencers income… are they Mormon enough for that? I mean the church need a large reality check and if they don’t apologize to these women I hope these women take their checks and walk away!
Yall are awesome! I would invite you all to all my lds activities such as my discipline council, my Mormon bishop meetings. All the trauma because you all would be the ones to support and love me.
I was out of the pew in the LDS church for 20 years though raised in it. I attended many other churches and studied many as well m. Presbyterian, Methodist, nondenominational, Babtist, Catholic. I came back into full fellowship in 2017 and much of what I hear and see on this is very slanted. I was raised in the Midwest not in the culture of the church but in the Bible Belt and in Christian culture. These women are like the secret lives of so many other people trying to do. It’s like going through n a diet to lose weight and cheat because you still really just want cheesecake. It’s the same with the gospel. I may be simplifying it just a tad but I cake to the conclusion I really believed the doctrine and I wanted to live it. Temptations of lust, greed, envy, and all manner of things will be there. It’s not a secret. We can have integrity and live what we believe or we can have two lives and then say everyone lives that way to make ourselves feel good about it. But there are Christians who really live what they say they believe. In every faith.
I will say this... when I was a (California) mormon if I acted the way these women did, (I did when I was leaving) I would have known I wasn't good and had to be forgiven. But again this could be my age and I'm not a gen z is it?
Green checks. These are not the Molly Mormon types where it would be easier to give the green checks. These women are very attractive. They are not hard on the eyes and most go beyond the ideal type of Mormon women. It also falls on the control of human sexuality.
When I was a member I would absolutely NOT go into a Starbucks because I was taught to avoid "even the appearance of evil". Now missionaries will meet people at Starbucks. It's so BIZARRE!!!
Yup! My parents HATED when I hung out at a French bistro with my non Mormon friends bcuz they served coffee lol
Jessi on Mormon stories would be too fun. She will tell it like it is for sure lmao
The judgment as to whether or not someone is Mormon enough seems to come down to whether someone agrees to feel bad about their “sins” and condemn themselves or not.
Mic drop for this!
Fell asleep listening to this and had the weirdest dream that this conversation was taking place live in my kitchen.
As a post-Mormon woman, I’ve always had a very strong inner voice that I felt comfortable vocalizing. It got me in lots of trouble advocating for myself against Dad/Bishops 😅
Jerado is right that Mormonism is fascinating to those of us who have never lived it. I grew up evangelical Christian & although purity culture is not unique to Mormonism, it is expressed very differently in Mormon culture. I would never have been denied entry to a place of worship or have been expected to tell a religious leader about my personal experiences. Bishop interviews, temple rituals, worthiness being a criteria for admission, the obsession with conformity to doctrine, the suppression of dissent, garments, etc are all outside the experience of non-Mormon Christians. Not to mention the history of polygamy and the Book of Mormon.
Mormon religion and culture are worlds apart from the Christian experience of non-Mormons.
This!
2:30:39 just my two cents in response to her defense of Whitney’s behavior…. You are right, in that Whitney has valid emotional triggers, feelings and issues that she responds to with toxic/avoidant behavior, specifically your comments that Whitney:
“Leans avoidant when she has feelings that are hard to manage” and
“she struggles to accept responsibility because she is so insecure in herself and her sense of self is so weak”
You are correct, those are all valid emotional triggers and feelings… and if this was a child or teen-to-early/mid twenties person I could understand justifying her behavior by explaining the reasons behind her behavior and how poorly she treats people close to her when she is “triggered”…
But I am sorry (not sorry) Whitney is too old and emotionally intelligent to be getting a free pass on being an energy vampire and making her emotional dysfunction the problem and responsibility of her family and her friend group… I was raised in a toxic family environment and the most freeing mantra my therapist offered me that I’ve repeated over and over for the last 10+ years is this: “Your mental health is NOT your fault. But it IS your responsibility.”
For me, that means that there is no reason to continuously excuse the abusive and toxic behavior of other adults in our lives. There has to be a point where someone is held accountable for their behavior and how they treat the people that love them and support them. We don’t just have to blindly continue to engage in a 1-way abusive/toxic relationship or friendship because we know that deep down the person has valid trauma or emotional triggers that drive their awful behavior. At some point it is okay for us to hold them accountable for their behavior and draw a firm boundary with any person that is an energy vampire and doesn’t have any interest in changing and working on being a better friend, lover, family member, etc.. (sorry, rant over!!😂)
I am the biggest advocate for boundaries when someone can’t treat you the way you deserve to be treated! 💜
I'm so surprised that Whitney's husband's activity on Tender or whichever site it was their entire marriage was swept under the rug after she revealed it. Her saying he was "experimenting" led people (including me) to think he may be gay. Things may not be as simple as she made them seem. I was surprised she got pregnant so soon after.
Great rant! I’ve been having this rant in my head for the past month and as I result I’ve finally cut off my ex who keeps being toxic. It’s do great that we have the ability to do this these days.
I think Taylor was sensing that Dakota was lying, but my thought is that he isn't lying about cheating, he's lying about his sobriety or some other addiction issue. In some of his scenes, I got the vibe that he was still using. I have similar thoughts about Zac during the Vegas trip. Addicts become really dysregulated when using, in my experience, so I think that plays into the dynamics of both relationships.
Fun episode! Re. the point about these women likely leaving the church at some point, it's interesting that Sam brought up that they have the wealth to do so. This is a huge difference from the days when we women were told that it was a sin to work, that our job was to care for our children and husband, and it was the man's role to be the breadwinner. These women flipped the script, so they have a way OUT of bad marriages within the church that so many of us did not.
I was uninvited from my Niece's baby blessing by my own mother. She was basically threatening to not go to the baby blessing if I was there. So my mom had my dad ask me not to go.
I got super drunk that night and burned all my journals from before I left the church. Pre-Mission Journals, Mission Journals, and a few journals from my time at BYU. I also burned all my missionary letters I sent home and the ones I received. I burned a bunch of other stuff too. It felt cathartic and amazing at the time but sometimes I wish I would have digitized those journals or something
As a never mo, I agree that the show is a net negative. If I were looking to find out about Mormonism as faith possibility, I wouldn't be able to see post the fact that Zac and Dakota are obvious emotional abusers and their church completely enables that with their patriarchy teachings.
Controlling and trying to limit friendships, complete lack of boundaries (especially the Vegas episode for both guys), anger rather than sympathy at their partner hurting, and absolutely no care about sabotaging their partners health and well being. All classic narcissistic abuse red flags.
Main reason for a. baby blessing is to get the child's name on the records of the Church so they can be tracked.
The scream I scrumpt when John said ‘the bald one.’ I giggled for like a full 15 minutes after that 😂😂 never change John Dehlin.
As a part of a neighborhood full of babies, baby blessings are more and more in the home. It’s NOT a saving ordinance.
I don't watch TV or follow trending issues, but I do enjoy culty podcasts! I had to pop in the comment section just after it was mentioned that Whitney appeared to smile as things turned sour around the "truth box". Hearing that solifidied my view of Whitney being the modern version of Nellie from Little House On The Prairie!
Oh she is Nellie!
2:50:20 maybe Taylor isn’t sure that she wants to commit to being married to another Mormon man??? Her issue might be that she knows she doesn’t want to get married in the temple and “rehab” herself in all the ways Dakota wants her to (ie: temple marriage, church attendance, etc) everything that Taylor does shows she does NOT want the Mormon life. So she probably is struggling with envisioning herself with a partner that has “fallen in love with her” yet constantly tells her how much looks forward to all the ways she is going to change and conform to his idea of what makes a proper wife.
Maybe Taylor has matured enough to know she doesn't want to be married to a recovering drug addict. With her own struggles and poor choices, he is the last thing she needs. Dealing with a drug addict is a struggle for everyone involved regardless of their own life choices.
"It's ok to have a belief spectrum, right?" 🤣🤣🤣
Update: Thank you for the changes!
As a note for the editor: the section breaks in this video's progress bar and the timestamps in the description-Recap of Episode One, Brand deals, How the dad talked to Dakota, etc.-were copied and pasted from the Part 1 video; they're not describing this Part 2 video at all. Correct timestamps and section descriptions would be appreciated.
I didn’t get invited to my daughter’s baby’s blessing at her house. I was devastated.
That would be so, so tough. I’m so incredibly sorry!
I’m so sorry. I’m heartbroken for you. Someday, that will be a big regret for your daughter.
We had some of this happen in our family with our Mom when she left the church. Im so sorry that happened to you. I hope it gets better! It has in our family but it took a lot of work
Jebus is going to force me to watch this show when Im in Outer Darkeness
On the segment about what exactly it means to be a “Mormon” I’ve found yet another strong parallel to my experience as an ex-Catholic, on the one hand most North American and western European Catholics have been ignoring their church leadership on many things (mainly birth control) for more than 50 years now at least and so the more devout ones, like I used to be, tend to really look down on them as being basically “cafeteria” believers that need to be thrown out basically (at least that’s what I believed at my most radicalized).
Another example is that the term Jack Mormon might be a direct equivalent to what may be called a cultural Catholic or at least that’s my impression, sometimes there’s the contradictory attitude that basically you might as well leave if you’re not going to listen to the Church on anything but once you actually do some might claim that somehow you’re still in (unlike the LDS church it’s pretty much impossible to truly leave the Catholic Church, even those excommunicated are still considered to be part of the fold in some way as when you’re baptized you’re part of the community forever at least on paper). Thus we have the infamous saying “once a Catholic always a Catholic” which is sometimes debated in the few online spaces we have for us and I don’t know if there’s an equivalent for Mormons. Also since Catholicism is one of the few religions that could be said to be truly global there’s no one Catholic “culture” as a Catholic raised in Mexico (like I was) might have a pretty different experience with the Church than someone raised in Poland or Hungary for example. I’m still impressed that the Mormons got their own state (which can’t be said for most other denominations) but perhaps that’s another thing that may limit how widespread “Mormon culture” might be outside of Utah even though there’s supposed to be members worldwide.
If there’s more than one Mormon culture do you think a member living in Mexico or Peru might have a different relationship to the Church than a member living in Utah and the Morridor?
My husband has a completely relationship to the church than I did. He’s from Peru. I’m from … close to utah in a highly Mormon area.
Had my husband watch the first episode with me and he commented on how much older these women looked than their actual age. He couldn’t believe some were in their early 20’s. I think all the procedures these women and so many other Utah women are getting is actually prematurely aging them even though they think it’s the opposite.
At 8:58. Are sinners real Mormons? In Utah there is a culture of perfectionism for Mormons. I am sure many Mormons in Utah would use a hierarchy ranking of sins. For example a little white lie is far less serious than engaging in swinging. Of course, many people also rationalize their sins a no big deal since it hurts nobody. Mormons of course are all sinners, but judgement reigns supreme in Utah as to who fits an "ideal type" of Mormon.
I just love Gerardo & John. And John U R a great man of honor for pushing Gerardo into a bigger better position within your business 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I agree with John. Whitney’s “testimony” at the baby blessing was so hypocritical 😆
Yeah she even said “we’re all children of God”. But that doesn’t apply to the other half of your friend group?
1:59:59 that made me tear me. It’s hard being told you are “not worthy”
Hi, Pisces Queen here, and Russell M. Nelson is absolutely NOT a pisces king. He was born on September 9, making him a Virgo. We pisces do not claim him.
Virgo makes way more sense for him.
Oh no. That's my birthday. I do not claim him😮
John spilling the grinder tea 😂
I watched that baby blessing... as a nevermo but avid MSP listener. And I thought I knew a lot... I didn't. I had heard of bearing "testimony" on MSP but seeing it was a whole other thing.
Having lived in and out of activity for the last 20 years and being the "sinner" of my family, I can relate to the stories of being left out of things I'd love to been there to celebrate. Even if I don't believe, I still love my family and would be supportive. Glad to say my family has come a long way and now that there are several of us who have left the church, no one is ever left out. But it took a lot of work and communication to get there. We have a very mixed bag family (5 of us have left, 2 mixed faith marriages, one same sex marriage, 1 inactive marriage, me a single non believing mom, we have divorce and blending) but I feel lucky that we do have LOVE
I found it so interesting that the other women were so enthusiastic about condemning Whitney's flaws and mistakes. And anytime she started to open up about her flaws, or be vulnerable, they seemed to be foaming at the mouth to throw it back at her. Sure Whitney clearly cares about how she is perceived, and also a bit of a mean girl. But she isn't alone in this on the cast. I laughed a lot every time the other women were complaining, on and on and on, about Whitney making herself the center of attention. They didn't have the awareness to simply not talk about it, so they made her the center of attention.
I think you all are spot on about their development being delayed. The behavior of these women is more like teenage girls, not how we typically see women in their twenties and thirties. It is super revealing when the mother of Taylor involves herself.
I decided to give this show a shot to see how they represented Mormonism. I couldn't get through more than 15 minutes of the first episode. Kudos to you guys for being able to.
The church should be a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints
Thank you!
Yes. Whitney loves the drama. I agree with Margie.
Her smile was huge as the infighting increased on that one get away. She looked downright giddy.
@@Foghorn-tr1je yes indeed, but only until her imperfections were revealed. 😉😉
Once Someone's mistake becomes public- everyone in town will say they were never mormon anyway.😅😅
Whitney was the only one shown to have blue papers for the truth box. I wonder if she was the one who wrote those questions they read off that started all the drama.
My husband's sister got married. We hadn't heard anything about when the sealing was. So my husband asked and she told him they weren't doing "the whole people waiting outside thing."
Later pictures came in on social media of my husband's entire family outside the temple together except for us. Including his "less active" brother and his brother's girlfriend who was never a member. So we found out people were invited to wait outside. Just not us who had told the family we left the church. I will admit my sister in law has her own issues and has never liked me, but I think we would've been invited still if we hadn't left.
That’s so hurtful. Getting excluded from the excluded. Sorry that you and your husband had to experience that.
When John said "we're knee deep" my brain autofilled "in the passenger seat..." after it 😂
My guess is if they are Mormon, there will be disciplinary councils happening in the near future.
I would definitely think that is in at least of a few of their futures. Several probably wouldn’t go like Taylor. Depending on where she is or how she is feeling about actually wanting to be member anymore. But then she opens up a really big obvious can of worms she may not be ready for depending on how devout her parents and family ultimately are.
I think there's a 50/50 chance of that happening because the rules seem to change when one of their members is in the spotlight, or has some kind of celebrity status.
Maybe this show is encouraged from the highest levels at LDS. Want to seem normal while having an awkward culture 😂
Ok I’m not Mormon so this is really difficult for me to digest. So you’re saying if you do something wrong in your life, you have to go to a disciplinary meeting? Aren’t we free people? Who can make someone go to a disciplinary meeting? What a crazy cult!
1:48:52 it's from David R. Hawkins research and book from the 90s "power vs force"
I'm a Whitney apologist too ✋🏼Also, while I agree Dakota has red flags, I don't think we can fault him for getting frustrated that Taylor is continually threatening to leave him if something comes out about him being unfaithful to her. Either be *in* the relationship or don't. Don't keep holding your trust issues over his head. If you don't trust him, end it and let him go find someone else. He keeps trying to show that he's committed and serious about their relationship and she's dangling a carrot, essentially.
I get uninvited from family events too. Weddings (even those outside of the temple of my other non Mormon family members) anything at church, and probably things that I don’t even know about because of how loud I am about being non Mormon.
Jessie Demi and Taylor look SO MUCH alike. Sometimes it’s hard to tell them apart!
I had a hard time specifically telling Jessi and Demi apart.
I agree with Gerardo. I think this show is important as well.
John, I know Demi REALLY well. And her husband Bret. I could dish…
I'm sure. Bret hanging out with these silly immature women makes me have second hand embarrassment for him. It makes him seem so cringe. Hopefully they don't allow him to hold the priesthood.
If you're allowed to show clips from the show, that would really bring it home!
I’m from a wealthy area of LA and can say I do not believe Botox in early 20s is common at all among my peers. That said, I’m a millennial, and I know so much has changed with gen z and social media filters.
Also, I think it’d be cool if you guys had a gen z on to discuss the show since almost all of the cast are gen z!
I think their intent is just to make money and be famous. But idk.
These "wives" series make me so mad. I don't care if it's Mormons, NYC, Atlanta, religious, non-religious, whatever. If you're single, do whatever the he!! you want. When there are children involved, they should be protected at all costs. Bringing random men into your childrens' lives is extremely risky!
Regarding John’s comments about carrying a baby around in Human Development class, they do that it in the high schools around my area (Massachusetts) and the baby simulators are fairly advanced and can track all sorts of behaviors that the student is supposed to perform.
Wish you could have had Heather Gay on for this one would have loved her take. (And she’s also such a thoughtful and nuanced panelist!).
The “true” Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints members need a way to signal that they are still the star-bellied Sneetches, even if the stars upon thars have become less differentiating than they did in the past when the stars had clearer visible lines.
As someone raised in a swearing family, it was a lot, but even more so, the lords name in vain really really shocked me.
John, I’ve been trying to find videos about alcohol and the early stage of the church. What videos should I watch?
I remember my mom begging me “not to join the anti Mormon faction” when I left at 17. I think she was afraid I would make the church look bad. But I just now realized I don’t need to feel guilty for finding a community. Bcuz it’s not exmo who make it look bad. the church itself makes it look bad. And the members can’t escape it, bcuz the more they lie or even admit problematic issues, they simply can’t avoid making it look bad bcuz it is.. the truth makes it look bad. And isnt the Holy Spirit supposed to be a witness of truth? You could argue they are denying the Holy Spirit by obfuscating the truth. And my point isn’t to judge members, it’s simply pointing out the irony that they fear truth like it’s bad, while proclaiming to be “the only true church”. I will leave it at that bcuz I’ve probably offended enough people.
Catholics aren’t the only Christians who baptize infants. Baptism is THE most sacred sacrament in non-Mormon Christianity. It’s the dedication of a life to Christ and in Catholic and mainline Christian traditions, it’s a very moving ritual where the parents also covenant with God.
Maybe the support you describe for mothers of the bride who have left active membership could be given to non Mormon parents as
well. To have your child take on this ie. Faith , and then be excluded from their wedding must be awful.
My Mormon mom has a sailor's mouth. If I had a dollar for every f-bomb I heard growing up, I'd be rich!
I think the drinking was super 1:30:47 disrespectful and also shows a social immaturity of not understanding appropriate social behaviour around drinking. Which I think is a consequence of having no context where drinking isn’t “evil”, so not understanding drinking appropriately. My friends ex Mormons sister does this regularly in their Mormon parents home and it’s so uncomfortable for everyone.
Thank you for having the discussion about the disrespect of bringing the alcohol to the faithful parent’s house. Now consider that the baby blessing took place at Zack’s parent’s house. I don’t really agree with the disinviting of the “sinners”, however I could understand why Zack might not want them to come because they clearly might not be able to respect Mormon traditions. You state it’s a patriarchy control thing, which it could be, but you all don’t seem to even consider that it might be a lack of trust in their behavior since they’ve done it before.
I agree. If people came to my devout Mormon parents' or in-laws' home and proceeded to drink, I would not be inclined to invite them back, especially to celebrate a sacred event for my child. That's not to say non Mormons shouldn't be invited but they need to be mature enough to respect the culture. These women are extremely immature.
I'm an ex-Mormon and I myself think people should NOT be included or invited to religious events if it takes away from that person's spiritual/religious experience. If someone is getting baptized and doesn't feel comfortable with a person or group of people being there, if they feel like those people take away from "the spirit" or will cause drama/chaos, then they have the right to exclude those people. No one is entitled to be apart of anyone's celebration/party/experience (especially if they aren't going to show consideration or respect for that person or event).
I'm glad John remembers the church before these younger people experienced it. There were a lot more unspoken standards and barriers that erroded between his generation and theirs.
How is he a Pisces if he has a birthday in September? We don’t claim him! 😂
Swig is just a Mormon coffee shop 🤣🤣
Mayci is the most likable girl on the show.
anyone else hear Empty Sea, when John was telling the story about the friend's niece going into the MTC...Empty Sea actually felt really right lol
I would really like to get your opinion on the whole chippendale drama…it kind of feels like a lot of excuses are made for Mormons to do things that might be questionable because of the whole repression of sexuality. There is nothing wrong going to the chippendales, but if you are going to go then there should be an open discussion between the partners. I don’t agree with the extreme reaction of the men but it was also not okay to take the women to a show as a surprise without them knowing. I don’t know, ogling half naked men dancing around in explicitly sexual ways without discussing that with your partner is disrespectful. My husband and I are not traditional and not religious but I know he would be hurt if I go to something like that without talking about it with him, it’s just disrespectful. And I would feel the same way if he did that to me. That whole episode did not sit well with me, it was basically a set up to get partners fighting. Don’t like the husband/boyfriend (creepily controlling) but acting like they should just be 100% fine with it feels like gaslighting.
I agree. I even question if this group of women is actually “friends”. They seem to enjoy creating rifts in relationships with each other and those outside the groups. Would a friend “surprise” a friend with an activity that they KNOW would be uncomfortable in the least and at most outright against their beliefs? Doesn’t sound like a friend to me.
@@bullfrogger8989 They are not friends. Look at what Whitney did to Demi.
@sanell6 They'll cover that in Part 3 when they talk about Episodes 6-8.
About the laughing gas... i never did it. But it was spoken in hushed terms when we got "GOOD" meds or got this or that. Like someone at church said i shouldnt have been put under when getting my appendex taken out but there were members saying laughing gas is better or worse. So honestly no way to win.
This was brilliant. Thanks for this
Before I was married, I was told by family members not to have anal or oral sex, and I’ve also heard of some church leaders talking to couples about it. So I think that it is still seen as a sin in some circles.
now i have to watch this show
I saw in another video, in defense of the drinking at Zack's, that they were anyways all going to the club after to drink. So they were having pre drinks and it shows that they weren't this disrescpectful.
@brittney did you know Dakota is from Middleton originally? Really has nothing to do with anything, but I feel like it makes him feel more human when I'm like oh he's actually from here 😂
Oh, I ran cross country against Middleton!
Love to see Samantha living her dreams 😂
I think with the sinners vs saints it put something in view that is really not talked a lot about utah Mormon culture, and how if you are with the church you and against the church. I grew up in utah not Mormon I have lost many friends from not being Mormon. And have felt this mentality for most of childhood and still today. It's taken lots of therapy to help recognize that.
1:30:21 As an ex-Evangelical with anti-alcohol family members, you gotta learn how to sneak your booze in, not flaunt it 😂
My Mom does not like the smell of coffee so when she comes over to my house I do my coffee out in my garage and have a refrigerator next to it for my creamers. Then when I'm leaving for the day to go to work I can just fill up my mug and put all the cream I want into it
I didn't notice Whitney smiling at others being kind of hurt and criticized harshly, but I am not surprised. She exhibits a lot of narcissistic behavior!
1:10:20 - not just 'so Mormon', but so human....which means that being in the church has not helped them act any better than an average human that is not in the church.
Marriage in the US is a legal contract. People who have went through a divorce know this better than anyone.
I feel like they are falsely advertising who they are.
Can we talk about Demi meeting her husband at 9 years old?! And she said she had a crush on him then and that as soon as she turns 18, he follows her on Insta?? This is so creepy and needs to be talked about
Born and bred in the LDS church and yes these are real Mormons. I know many members similar to them. Some couples I know in church come immediately to my mind when I watch the show.
My bf in church was taken back to the hotel room of an area seventy after a young single adult’s fireside. One of my stake president’s was caught with his garments down in the temple (not with his wife).. my bishop was ‘living the higher law.’
I was bullied by many of my peers at church for being ‘too good’ trying too hard.. 😅
I think all of the shots of the churches with crosses are interesting... definitely not a mormon thing. The producers missed the opportunity to use a meeting house steeple haha lord knows there are plenty to choose from.
This whole narrative that they're not Mormon is kind of annoying. I'm sure they never bothered to date or marry any random guys at church but the attempt to distance seems more for PR purposes by the cultists.
Thank you for bringing up the tithing! They take these women’s influencers income… are they Mormon enough for that? I mean the church need a large reality check and if they don’t apologize to these women I hope these women take their checks and walk away!
Yall are awesome! I would invite you all to all my lds activities such as my discipline council, my Mormon bishop meetings. All the trauma because you all would be the ones to support and love me.
Sorry I misses the live chat 😂
Why are they giving the vow of silence? Will they speak the truth to us?
I cannot stand Dakota either 🤣
I was out of the pew in the LDS church for 20 years though raised in it. I attended many other churches and studied many as well m. Presbyterian, Methodist, nondenominational, Babtist, Catholic. I came back into full fellowship in 2017 and much of what I hear and see on this is very slanted. I was raised in the Midwest not in the culture of the church but in the Bible Belt and in Christian culture. These women are like the secret lives of so many other people trying to do. It’s like going through n a diet to lose weight and cheat because you still really just want cheesecake. It’s the same with the gospel. I may be simplifying it just a tad but I cake to the conclusion I really believed the doctrine and I wanted to live it. Temptations of lust, greed, envy, and all manner of things will be there. It’s not a secret. We can have integrity and live what we believe or we can have two lives and then say everyone lives that way to make ourselves feel good about it. But there are Christians who really live what they say they believe. In every faith.
I always heard Mormons that drank were called Jack Mormons lol but I don’t know what that means.
I will say this... when I was a (California) mormon if I acted the way these women did, (I did when I was leaving) I would have known I wasn't good and had to be forgiven. But again this could be my age and I'm not a gen z is it?
I blessed my second child at home by choice, you just ask your Bishop and they usually will be ok with it (at least my bishop)
Way before COVID
I really don’t think they are practicing mormons because of the outfits they wear. Hardly church appropriate
I loved Sam’s thoughts on Whitney :)
Dude. I left my family group chat cuz all I did was get 💩 on 🤷🏻♀️🤣🤷🏻♀️ I don’t regret it 😄
Finally someone said Jack Mormon 😂😂😂
Green checks. These are not the Molly Mormon types where it would be easier to give the green checks. These women are very attractive. They are not hard on the eyes and most go beyond the ideal type of Mormon women. It also falls on the control of human sexuality.
6 weeks after u have a baby. 🤷🏻♀️ and zak is in MEDICAL SCHOOL. You’d think he would know that 🤣😆😂
That is the minimum. Not all heal well enough by then.
Maybe he has exactly one good quality?