During the First Age, it was stated that if an Elf refused the summons to the Halls of Mandos, that Morgoth could summon or take control of that elvish fea. If Mandos could reincarnate an elf, perhaps Morgoth could do so as well. Eru tells Manwe during the Finwe and Miriel Serinde crisis that the Vala had always possessed the ability to reincarnate an elf. Most of this rambling comes from my recollection of Book 10 HoME Morgoth’s Ring. Great topic btw.
I come solidly down on Morgoth not being able to give new hröa to elvish fëa. He had enslaved elves in Angband but the idea of forcing them to give birth to re-house his controlled fëa is bizarre and completely against elvish nature. Anyway, _Morgoth's Ring_ The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) states that "re-birth is a grace, and comes of the power that Eru committed to the Valar for the ruling of Arda and the redress of its marring....Only those return whom, after Mandos has spoken the doom of release, Manwë and Varda bless."
I'm praying RoP gets it's act together so we can see this happen on screen. Sauron unyielding against the coming doom knowing he's destroyed Numenor and will live to sow horror amongst their descendants.
What happened to mortals Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli when they went to the undying land and how does that interplay with the concepts of life, death, fea, and hroa you talked about here?
I think the answer is that they did eventually die. Like Numenoreans they were given an extended lifespan but eventually they would feel a weariness of the flesh and so leave the world.
A big part of the Elves envying the Gift of Men is that Men will participate in the Second Music to create the World anew after this marred one ends, while the Elves don't know if they will exist after this World ends because they're bound to it and Eru didn't say anything about them enduring (unlike Men). The Elves who merely fade do not die, and thus aren't concerned with the Halls of Mandos in any way. There is an important difference that's missing in your otherwise excellent video: Fully faded Elves actually did not lose their body entirely, while dead Elves did. The latter are called the "Houseless"; they're bodiless and thus dead, and if they refuse to go to Mandos they stay around as dead and possibly malign spirits who desire a new body. But Elves whose body fully faded (quicker in corrupted Middle-earth, at its "natural pace" in Aman) still have their body/form "carried" by the spirit. They're called the "Lingerers"; they never died, don't desire a new body and are benign. Relevant quotes from History of Middle-earth X (emphasis mine): Concerning the faded Lingerers: "As ages passed the dominance of their fëar ever increased 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it, for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fëa; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed *deathless* and may not be destroyed or changed." "Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they *may reveal to him their forms* (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear, though he may feel awe of them. Concerning the dead Houseless: "For the *Houseless have no forms to reveal* , and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms, deluding the minds of Men with fantasies, such visions would be marred by the evil of their intent. For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit."
@@MusikCassetteProbably not. Tolkien states that Eagles didn't have fea despite being highly intelligent. Dragons are probably the same because I'm not sure where they would've gotten fea from.
4:20 No, that's incorrect. From _Morgoth's Ring_ The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), the elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Lingerers) have had their hröa faded by their fëa to the point that their "bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully." They still have bodies that they can reveal to men if they want to. The Houseless are elves whose hröa have been destroyed through violence or mishap and have refused the summons of Mandos, choosing to wander the world as a disembodied fëa. That itself indicates being tainted by the Shadow.
One other thought, Tolkien stated that after the destruction of the Ring, that Sauron no longer possessed the power to slowly put himself back together, an impotent spirit, dead. However he went on to state that Morgoth, though defeated and thrust thru the doors of night, still possessed the power to reincarnate and would return for Dagor Dagorath. Therefore, hypothetically, Morgoth might be able to assist Sauron’s spirit at some point in reincarnation perhaps totally or giving him enough power to complete the task on his own. Morgoth would want his most ablest lieutenant for the final battle.
Melkor was mega-strong (the greatest of all the Ainur, even those who did not come into Ea). He is the root of Evil, as such. He spread himself so thin that he could not fully recover from a wound from Fingolfin. As I speculated earlier, perhaps as Arda is made more wholesome and Orcs etc die out, that essence of Evil will return back to him, powering him back up. Sauron was a self-contained Maia (lesser Ainur), who dumped his power into the Ring, which was destroyed- and with it his power. I don't think Melkor would be so charitable as to lend Sauron some of his own power to 'reform', especially after having diminished himself for ages. He may rally the remaining Ainur who followed him, and attempt to corrupt what Men he could. But I think he holds his own power the next time around, as anyone less than a strong Maia was pointless against the Valar.
Sauron needs the help of the mightiest of elven craftsmen in order to create a bunch of rings that can anchor the spirit of men within the realms of Ëa, but Isildur has the power to do the same just with the power of oath and curse.
Sauron's Rings of Power were intended to be used by him via the One Ring to dominate the Elves. While that plan failed, he did get the 9 Ringwraiths, powerful being enslaved to his will to do whatever he wished them to do. The Oath of the oathbreakers and Isildur's curse simply forced them to stay around until they fulfilled their oath.
The point about the elves' fea having strong control over their hroa which increases the durability of the hroa is, I believe, key to understanding the witch-king's death. When he lost the control over his unseen body it dramatically lowered his body's durability which let Eowyn kill him. There were obviously numerous spells he cast upon himself (for example, which caused any blade to be destroyed) to increase his durability and his continued connection to his fea, as you said, was no small part of that.
@@LeRoiDuFresneMore of a speculation video. From the holders of the 3 and 7, we can gather who had the 9. The 3 and 7 were the leaders of the different tribes of the elves and the dwarves. Men have more than nine groups in the second age. So what we know is there is Khamul the Easterling. The only named Nazgûl. As well as 3 other Nazgûl being Numenorians. One of them being the Witch king. So what about the other 5? So if three were Black Numenorians, at least one was from Harad, maybe one or two were from Rhun and Harad respectively. That still leaves us with one or two possible Nazgûl. Maybe there was one Northman Nazgûl. It’s unlikely to be tribes that are minor or more removed from men like the Drúedain, men of the mountains, Lossoth , ancestors of the Dunlendings, etc. Maybe certain kings that went missing would be good candidates but the middle of the Second age doesn’t have those details. Maybe some came from Dorwinion, Rhudaur. We don’t really know. It’s mostly headcanon.
I was rewatching your “travels of Hurin” video the other day, can you do a what if Turgon let him in to Gondolin video? Do you think Hurin would’ve been cured of Morgoth’s shadow or could only Melian do that? Would he cause more strife and a faster downfall of the city? Thanks for the videos as always! Glad you’re updating pretty regularly!!
I'm going to quibble with the Orcs have no fëar and cease to exist when they die. I propose that an Orc with no fëa actually has a fragment of Melkor's essence acting as its fëa, and that this is a major part of the reason why Melkor became less powerful over the ages: his spirit was divided among his creations. This would have the consequence, however, that this fragment of Melkor would be left behind, since it is fundamentally just as indestructible as any other spirit created by Ilúvitar. This would in turn mean that said spirit might be reunited, perhaps as an enemy, or perhaps even healed, come the Great End following Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music.
I've been fascinated by the concept of Morgoth spreading his essence to the orcs, trolls, and other such beasts (possibly dragons), empowering them and in turn weakening himself. The whole "Arda is Morgoth's Ring" thing. I wonder, if you were to cleanse Arda of his malice, would that evil just disappear, or would Morgoth become revitalized again? Remember, in the early Ages, he single-handedly more than held his own against the combined Valar. I've read that the Valar did not expect to succeed in overthrowing Utumno, and when they did and Manwe saw how diminished in raw power Melkor had become, they were both shocked. I guess at that point he had already spread a lot of his essence into Arda. But if he could reclaim that which he seeded out to the Orcs etc, in theory he should scale back up again.
@@scoobysnacker1999 My personal thought is that would indeed lead to Melkor being revitalized - and, as a secondary consequence, redeemable (remember, even Melkor was good in the beginning).
@@bristleconepine4120 I'm also wondering a bit about the eventual, FINAL fates of Melkor and those he originally corrupted (during the Discord in the Song before creation). Melkor is noted as the greatest of the Ainur then, and he dared to introduce his own themes into the Music. Eru tolerated this several times before ending the Song, and then scolded Melkor and said whatever he does still ultimately contributes to the glory of Eru. The world is said to be broken and remade, and a second Music will be made (including the Children of Illuvatar in this second one). Does Melkor get to participate again, after learning how all his initial deviations simply led to his downfall? In a way, it kinda seems like he would; a "what have you learned" moment. Eru allowed him to go off course and do his own thing, as a teaching moment... and he would see the error of his ways.
I like the idea that the dwarves go exist with Aulë until the end of time. Perhaps bodiless and as mere spirits. I don't think that they endure the same fate as men, and they don't go to the Halls of Mandos. That's pretty certain. I'm sure that the Valar want them around for the Last Battle. 😊❤😊
It’s kinda ironic how Men have the better deal, because it’s so contrary to what’s intuitive to think about in our reality. The Elves are doomed to just grow wearier and wearier as the years progress. As a fallen world isn’t a place to be immortal. Men, liberated from those shackles, are able to escape the circuses and circles of the world and find peace in a way the Elves are doomed to never experience. The Dwarves perhaps have even a worse deal though, as they don’t get to leave the circles of the world like Men do, yet also aren’t granted life like the Elves are, and just have to wait for Eru to give the ok the Aule for them to given the Elves’ life. As the only species independent of the waning of the fallen world, Men are destined to forge their own paths. You can almost see this in our world too, as species like Dragonflies and Crocodiles haven’t changed for hundreds of millions of years, as they’re content in their stable ecological niches. Humans are given a liberty unbeknownst to any other species, whether on Earth or Middle Earth. And that’s pretty darn special.
15:30 Seriously? Gandalf returned thanks to ILUVATAR? Dude, you are omnipotent, you made this world and gave the people inside free will, can you stop meddling now???? Literally it could have been Manwë that reincarnated him, like Glorfindel!
They still have hroa, they've just faded into invisibility. But one could argue that it's their fea being bound to their rings that keeps their hroa "alive".
@@DarthGandalfYTSo in that sense are they similar to an elf who's hroa has "faded" after many long years in Middle Earth? Sauron and their ring fortified their fea up to "super elf" level?
Wouldn't there be a problem of elven overpopulation because elves are immortal and even if they die the could be reinbodied and while this is happening new elves would be born as well. So how does this work?
Could you make a video about burial traditions across middle-earth? We know about dwarves and numenoreans. But what do elves do with bodies of their kin who died violently? What about hobbits?
8:18 That idea sounds almost as bad as idea of "the Whills" from Star Wars. Sort of wished we never had the force explained, I liked it more when it was just some ancient hokey religion that was pretty much extinct.
Hang on a moment, it has always been my understanding that the wounds Gandalf sustained were not physical, they were entirely inconsequential, but because the Balrog was also a spiritual creature it was able to damage Gandalf's spirit. You seem to be suggesting the exact opposite?
Leaving aside the idea of spiritual damage, what lead you to believe Gandalf didn't suffer meaningful physical wounds in the fight with the Balrog? Tolkien is very clear that the wizards are subject to the dangers of the physical world while incarnated. It's hard to see how that limitation would be consequential anywhere if it wasn't there.
I don't know about animals not having fea. Take Huan, the eagles, Shadofax, even the ponies of the hobbits and Fatty Lumpkin. If they have free will, they must have the flame of Eru in them, meaning they have a fea. Certainly the kelvar are not made as autonomous by Yavanah. The only autonomous beings were the dwarves of Aule before Eru granted them the Flame Imperishable. But since Tolkien's main focus were the children of Illuvatar, it's understandable he didn't tarry on the fea of the animals.
I agree. Of Aule and Yavanna makes it pretty clear that a creature without a spirit can't act freely like animals do. That chapter also says that "spirits from afar" come to dwell in the great eagles, but despite their importance they don't demonstrate any kind of greater personhood than, say, the ravens. The idea of animals not having spirits has always seemed to me an import from Catholic belief rather than something supported by the texts.
Even if some Orcs were made from corrupted Elves and/or Men, what about all the Orcs that were born later? I don't see why Ilúvatar would create Fëa for them. I think Orcs were more likely the equivalent of highly intelligent animals, unlike any we see today.
I mean, we know that Orcs breed rapidly. It's basically impossible to state the demographics between the descendants of the corrupted and the newly created, but I'd wager it would be towards the latter simply because it would be easier. For example, we know that the Rise of Angamar concides with the increase of the Mountain Orcs, and thus, the Witch-King might've had a hand in their creation. We also have to keep in mind that Sauron and his servants had less power than Morgoth and that Men and Elves had largely become aware of his vices. This wasn't the First Age where Morgoth could lure and capture Elves when they were ignorant of him and then corrupt them, meaning that window for this Orcs with an Mannish/Elvish strain would be very low in the Second Age(because of the fall of Thrangorodrim) and Third Age (because of the War of the Last Alliance); and because Orc society is so destructive I doubt that this particular group would survive in any particular quality. Still, it's an interesting concept, perhaps Orcs like Azog (and by extension Bolg) belonged to this "higher" lineage of Orc.
@@antoninuslarpus7107 I don't see any reason for Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron, or Saruman (the only ones known to have bred Orcs from other beings) to keep corrupting Elves or Men once they had a population of Orcs large enough to sustain and increase their own populations unless the evil Lord in question was specifically experimenting to try and create a new type of Orc. That seems to have been a rare event. Sauron had been using armies of Orcs for a very long time before he started trying to cross them with Men to improve their abilities to move and fight in the day. So, I would simply think the vast majority of Orcs were simply the offspring of earlier generations. The question regarding Orcs such as Azog, Bolg, etc. is an interesting one. There's a theory floating around for quite some time that I like, namely that some of the Maia Melkor corrupted into his service ended up taking the physical forms of great Orcs and at some point some had offspring which founded the greater Orc lineages. This would have been roughly analogous to Men of Númenor being physically superior and much longer-lived than other Men.
Hi Darth! When a mommy and a daddy do the special hug, where does the new fëa "come from"? Are there a trillion spiritual babies sitting in Heaven waiting for their chance to come down to Middle Earth for their chance at life? Does Eru create a new fëa at the moment of conception/birth? Do the parents' fëar have the ability to create a new one?
Tolkien drew a lot of his ideas from Catholic theology, which states that God creates each soul at the moment of its conception. Probably safe to assume Tolkien intended the same thing for fëar in Middle-Earth.
@@HoagsObject00 At conception, birth, or some time in between? A lot of zygotes don't implant in the uterus properly, and of the ones that do, a lot of embryos end up as miscarriages. Would Eru grant all these beings fëar even though the "life" they'll live will be mere sparks?
@@General12th If we are to go by Catholic beliefs, then yes Eru would grant all beings fëar at conception. Any miscarriages or other issues of that kind would be a result of Morgoth's marring.
Anyone else find it curious that a devout Catholic would effectively incorporate euthanasia into their story? In Catholicism suicide of any kind prevents you getting into heaven, yet the same thing does not apply to the Númenóreans in Tolkien's world. I wish the man was still alive, there are so many questions I'd like to ask him.
Númenóreans willingly giving up their lives when they felt death encroaching upon them was not the same as euthanasia or suicide. It was more like just "accepting your fate" and allowing death to take you.
I was with you all the way through the entire video until at the end you said “your fea is your brain”… um what? That would mean any animal with a brain had a fea… and also that the incorporeal entities of middle earth would actually be just a floating brain running around wreaking havoc. I could fight off a floating brain… 🤣
-how does death work?
- very hard.
How does death work?
Half-elves: It's complicated...
During the First Age, it was stated that if an Elf refused the summons to the Halls of Mandos, that Morgoth could summon or take control of that elvish fea. If Mandos could reincarnate an elf, perhaps Morgoth could do so as well. Eru tells Manwe during the Finwe and Miriel Serinde crisis that the Vala had always possessed the ability to reincarnate an elf. Most of this rambling comes from my recollection of Book 10 HoME Morgoth’s Ring. Great topic btw.
I come solidly down on Morgoth not being able to give new hröa to elvish fëa. He had enslaved elves in Angband but the idea of forcing them to give birth to re-house his controlled fëa is bizarre and completely against elvish nature. Anyway, _Morgoth's Ring_ The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II) states that "re-birth is a grace, and comes of the power that Eru committed to the Valar for the ruling of Arda and the redress of its marring....Only those return whom, after Mandos has spoken the doom of release, Manwë and Varda bless."
10:49 Ive never noticed the little guy (Sauron i guess) in the bottom right corner of the Alan Lee Akallabeth drawing until now. Amazing detail.
This makes the artwork ten times more epic for me.
I'm praying RoP gets it's act together so we can see this happen on screen. Sauron unyielding against the coming doom knowing he's destroyed Numenor and will live to sow horror amongst their descendants.
"COME AT ME, ERU. I DARE YOU!"
"..."
"uh oh"
so epic
Does anybody know whether the Alan Lee pictures are drawn or done on the computer?
always a great day when darth gandalf posts
One of the best days brother
Very interesting subject matter! Thanks for putting the effort into a longer video for us.
What happened to mortals Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli when they went to the undying land and how does that interplay with the concepts of life, death, fea, and hroa you talked about here?
I think the answer is that they did eventually die.
Like Numenoreans they were given an extended lifespan but eventually they would feel a weariness of the flesh and so leave the world.
Well possibly Gimli wouldn't since the fate of dwarves is so mysterious.
A big part of the Elves envying the Gift of Men is that Men will participate in the Second Music to create the World anew after this marred one ends, while the Elves don't know if they will exist after this World ends because they're bound to it and Eru didn't say anything about them enduring (unlike Men).
The Elves who merely fade do not die, and thus aren't concerned with the Halls of Mandos in any way. There is an important difference that's missing in your otherwise excellent video: Fully faded Elves actually did not lose their body entirely, while dead Elves did. The latter are called the "Houseless"; they're bodiless and thus dead, and if they refuse to go to Mandos they stay around as dead and possibly malign spirits who desire a new body.
But Elves whose body fully faded (quicker in corrupted Middle-earth, at its "natural pace" in Aman) still have their body/form "carried" by the spirit. They're called the "Lingerers"; they never died, don't desire a new body and are benign. Relevant quotes from History of Middle-earth X (emphasis mine):
Concerning the faded Lingerers:
"As ages passed the dominance of their fëar ever increased 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it, for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fëa; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed *deathless* and may not be destroyed or changed."
"Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they *may reveal to him their forms* (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear, though he may feel awe of them.
Concerning the dead Houseless:
"For the *Houseless have no forms to reveal* , and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms, deluding the minds of Men with fantasies, such visions would be marred by the evil of their intent. For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit."
to quote shad:
"But what about Dragons?" ^^
Oh Shad, such majesty lost.
@@General12th I mean that question.
Dragons should have fea judging by the way they act and talk. But do they?
@@MusikCassetteProbably not. Tolkien states that Eagles didn't have fea despite being highly intelligent. Dragons are probably the same because I'm not sure where they would've gotten fea from.
4:20 No, that's incorrect. From _Morgoth's Ring_ The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), the elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Lingerers) have had their hröa faded by their fëa to the point that their "bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully." They still have bodies that they can reveal to men if they want to. The Houseless are elves whose hröa have been destroyed through violence or mishap and have refused the summons of Mandos, choosing to wander the world as a disembodied fëa. That itself indicates being tainted by the Shadow.
One other thought, Tolkien stated that after the destruction of the Ring, that Sauron no longer possessed the power to slowly put himself back together, an impotent spirit, dead. However he went on to state that Morgoth, though defeated and thrust thru the doors of night, still possessed the power to reincarnate and would return for Dagor Dagorath. Therefore, hypothetically, Morgoth might be able to assist Sauron’s spirit at some point in reincarnation perhaps totally or giving him enough power to complete the task on his own. Morgoth would want his most ablest lieutenant for the final battle.
Melkor was mega-strong (the greatest of all the Ainur, even those who did not come into Ea). He is the root of Evil, as such. He spread himself so thin that he could not fully recover from a wound from Fingolfin. As I speculated earlier, perhaps as Arda is made more wholesome and Orcs etc die out, that essence of Evil will return back to him, powering him back up. Sauron was a self-contained Maia (lesser Ainur), who dumped his power into the Ring, which was destroyed- and with it his power.
I don't think Melkor would be so charitable as to lend Sauron some of his own power to 'reform', especially after having diminished himself for ages. He may rally the remaining Ainur who followed him, and attempt to corrupt what Men he could. But I think he holds his own power the next time around, as anyone less than a strong Maia was pointless against the Valar.
Sauron needs the help of the mightiest of elven craftsmen in order to create a bunch of rings that can anchor the spirit of men within the realms of Ëa, but Isildur has the power to do the same just with the power of oath and curse.
Sauron's Rings of Power were intended to be used by him via the One Ring to dominate the Elves. While that plan failed, he did get the 9 Ringwraiths, powerful being enslaved to his will to do whatever he wished them to do. The Oath of the oathbreakers and Isildur's curse simply forced them to stay around until they fulfilled their oath.
In ME oaths are immensely powerful and dangerous and are best avoided.
The point about the elves' fea having strong control over their hroa which increases the durability of the hroa is, I believe, key to understanding the witch-king's death. When he lost the control over his unseen body it dramatically lowered his body's durability which let Eowyn kill him. There were obviously numerous spells he cast upon himself (for example, which caused any blade to be destroyed) to increase his durability and his continued connection to his fea, as you said, was no small part of that.
Can we do a identities of the nazgul middle earth mysteries video?
Itd be pretty short. Wouldn’t need more than five minutes.
@@LeRoiDuFresneMore of a speculation video. From the holders of the 3 and 7, we can gather who had the 9. The 3 and 7 were the leaders of the different tribes of the elves and the dwarves. Men have more than nine groups in the second age. So what we know is there is Khamul the Easterling. The only named Nazgûl. As well as 3 other Nazgûl being Numenorians. One of them being the Witch king. So what about the other 5? So if three were Black Numenorians, at least one was from Harad, maybe one or two were from Rhun and Harad respectively. That still leaves us with one or two possible Nazgûl. Maybe there was one Northman Nazgûl. It’s unlikely to be tribes that are minor or more removed from men like the Drúedain, men of the mountains, Lossoth , ancestors of the Dunlendings, etc. Maybe certain kings that went missing would be good candidates but the middle of the Second age doesn’t have those details. Maybe some came from Dorwinion, Rhudaur. We don’t really know. It’s mostly headcanon.
@@LeRoiDuFresne Well, he did make Dorwinion and Khand videos longer than 5 minutes and we have even less to go off of for those...
@@LeonKong-w9v fair enough
I was rewatching your “travels of Hurin” video the other day, can you do a what if Turgon let him in to Gondolin video? Do you think Hurin would’ve been cured of Morgoth’s shadow or could only Melian do that? Would he cause more strife and a faster downfall of the city? Thanks for the videos as always! Glad you’re updating pretty regularly!!
So Fingolfin,Fingon,Turgon,Celebrimbor and Gil-galad have been reincarnated?
In Valinor.
In short: elves got pampered by everyone
Men get always the Short end of stick 😃
You’re dead wrong. Have you read any lore on Arda at all?
I'm going to quibble with the Orcs have no fëar and cease to exist when they die.
I propose that an Orc with no fëa actually has a fragment of Melkor's essence acting as its fëa, and that this is a major part of the reason why Melkor became less powerful over the ages: his spirit was divided among his creations. This would have the consequence, however, that this fragment of Melkor would be left behind, since it is fundamentally just as indestructible as any other spirit created by Ilúvitar. This would in turn mean that said spirit might be reunited, perhaps as an enemy, or perhaps even healed, come the Great End following Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music.
What about all the orcs born after Morgoth was cast out of the world after the War of Wrath?
@@istari0 That depends. Maybe they inherited disembodied portions of Melkor's spirit - or maybe they got their would-be fëar from Sauron or Saruman.
I've been fascinated by the concept of Morgoth spreading his essence to the orcs, trolls, and other such beasts (possibly dragons), empowering them and in turn weakening himself. The whole "Arda is Morgoth's Ring" thing. I wonder, if you were to cleanse Arda of his malice, would that evil just disappear, or would Morgoth become revitalized again? Remember, in the early Ages, he single-handedly more than held his own against the combined Valar. I've read that the Valar did not expect to succeed in overthrowing Utumno, and when they did and Manwe saw how diminished in raw power Melkor had become, they were both shocked. I guess at that point he had already spread a lot of his essence into Arda.
But if he could reclaim that which he seeded out to the Orcs etc, in theory he should scale back up again.
@@scoobysnacker1999 My personal thought is that would indeed lead to Melkor being revitalized - and, as a secondary consequence, redeemable (remember, even Melkor was good in the beginning).
@@bristleconepine4120 I'm also wondering a bit about the eventual, FINAL fates of Melkor and those he originally corrupted (during the Discord in the Song before creation). Melkor is noted as the greatest of the Ainur then, and he dared to introduce his own themes into the Music. Eru tolerated this several times before ending the Song, and then scolded Melkor and said whatever he does still ultimately contributes to the glory of Eru.
The world is said to be broken and remade, and a second Music will be made (including the Children of Illuvatar in this second one). Does Melkor get to participate again, after learning how all his initial deviations simply led to his downfall? In a way, it kinda seems like he would; a "what have you learned" moment. Eru allowed him to go off course and do his own thing, as a teaching moment... and he would see the error of his ways.
I like the idea that the dwarves go exist with Aulë until the end of time. Perhaps bodiless and as mere spirits. I don't think that they endure the same fate as men, and they don't go to the Halls of Mandos. That's pretty certain. I'm sure that the Valar want them around for the Last Battle. 😊❤😊
It’s kinda ironic how Men have the better deal, because it’s so contrary to what’s intuitive to think about in our reality. The Elves are doomed to just grow wearier and wearier as the years progress. As a fallen world isn’t a place to be immortal. Men, liberated from those shackles, are able to escape the circuses and circles of the world and find peace in a way the Elves are doomed to never experience. The Dwarves perhaps have even a worse deal though, as they don’t get to leave the circles of the world like Men do, yet also aren’t granted life like the Elves are, and just have to wait for Eru to give the ok the Aule for them to given the Elves’ life. As the only species independent of the waning of the fallen world, Men are destined to forge their own paths. You can almost see this in our world too, as species like Dragonflies and Crocodiles haven’t changed for hundreds of millions of years, as they’re content in their stable ecological niches. Humans are given a liberty unbeknownst to any other species, whether on Earth or Middle Earth. And that’s pretty darn special.
very interesting, 'good day !
10:00 BRUH TUOR BECAME IMMORTAL???
15:30 Seriously? Gandalf returned thanks to ILUVATAR? Dude, you are omnipotent, you made this world and gave the people inside free will, can you stop meddling now???? Literally it could have been Manwë that reincarnated him, like Glorfindel!
So are the Nazgul simply disembodied fea? Perhaps 'fortified' by Sauron's necromancy?
They still have hroa, they've just faded into invisibility. But one could argue that it's their fea being bound to their rings that keeps their hroa "alive".
@@DarthGandalfYTSo in that sense are they similar to an elf who's hroa has "faded" after many long years in Middle Earth? Sauron and their ring fortified their fea up to "super elf" level?
@@davidkulmaczewski4911
It does look like that.
Have stuck around for millennia The Nazgul are much more *elvish* than regular humans.
Wouldn't there be a problem of elven overpopulation because elves are immortal and even if they die the could be reinbodied and while this is happening new elves would be born as well. So how does this work?
Elves reproduce slowly and in their later generations typically didn't do swiftly enough to significantly increase their population.
One does not simply spell "Necromancer" without "romance".
War of Dwarves and Dragons please Lord DarthGandolf
Could you do a video on his languages? Surprisingly, no one's really talked about them on TH-cam.
Death: The damage beyond healing of the body and the separation of the spirit from same.
Automatons mentioned Liberty and Democracy is Needed here.
Could you make a video about burial traditions across middle-earth? We know about dwarves and numenoreans. But what do elves do with bodies of their kin who died violently? What about hobbits?
7:00 so Shadow of Mordor got something right for a change...
8:18 That idea sounds almost as bad as idea of "the Whills" from Star Wars. Sort of wished we never had the force explained, I liked it more when it was just some ancient hokey religion that was pretty much extinct.
what if balins expedition succeeded
You are wrong about Valinor, I think: the Elves *also* fade in Valinor. It's just a slower process, but at the end they are all turned into spirits.
Fade or not, I have to assume it's a whole lot more pleasant and tolerable in Valinor.
I don't recall reading anything like that but even if they did, it was likely so slow that the end and remaking of Arda would happen first.
Hang on a moment, it has always been my understanding that the wounds Gandalf sustained were not physical, they were entirely inconsequential, but because the Balrog was also a spiritual creature it was able to damage Gandalf's spirit. You seem to be suggesting the exact opposite?
Leaving aside the idea of spiritual damage, what lead you to believe Gandalf didn't suffer meaningful physical wounds in the fight with the Balrog? Tolkien is very clear that the wizards are subject to the dangers of the physical world while incarnated. It's hard to see how that limitation would be consequential anywhere if it wasn't there.
It was a battle between two incarnate beings. Why wouldn't they be able to inflict physical harm on each other?
I don't know about animals not having fea. Take Huan, the eagles, Shadofax, even the ponies of the hobbits and Fatty Lumpkin. If they have free will, they must have the flame of Eru in them, meaning they have a fea. Certainly the kelvar are not made as autonomous by Yavanah. The only autonomous beings were the dwarves of Aule before Eru granted them the Flame Imperishable. But since Tolkien's main focus were the children of Illuvatar, it's understandable he didn't tarry on the fea of the animals.
I agree. Of Aule and Yavanna makes it pretty clear that a creature without a spirit can't act freely like animals do. That chapter also says that "spirits from afar" come to dwell in the great eagles, but despite their importance they don't demonstrate any kind of greater personhood than, say, the ravens. The idea of animals not having spirits has always seemed to me an import from Catholic belief rather than something supported by the texts.
Even if some Orcs were made from corrupted Elves and/or Men, what about all the Orcs that were born later? I don't see why Ilúvatar would create Fëa for them. I think Orcs were more likely the equivalent of highly intelligent animals, unlike any we see today.
I mean, we know that Orcs breed rapidly. It's basically impossible to state the demographics between the descendants of the corrupted and the newly created, but I'd wager it would be towards the latter simply because it would be easier.
For example, we know that the Rise of Angamar concides with the increase of the Mountain Orcs, and thus, the Witch-King might've had a hand in their creation. We also have to keep in mind that Sauron and his servants had less power than Morgoth and that Men and Elves had largely become aware of his vices. This wasn't the First Age where Morgoth could lure and capture Elves when they were ignorant of him and then corrupt them, meaning that window for this Orcs with an Mannish/Elvish strain would be very low in the Second Age(because of the fall of Thrangorodrim) and Third Age (because of the War of the Last Alliance); and because Orc society is so destructive I doubt that this particular group would survive in any particular quality.
Still, it's an interesting concept, perhaps Orcs like Azog (and by extension Bolg) belonged to this "higher" lineage of Orc.
@@antoninuslarpus7107 I don't see any reason for Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron, or Saruman (the only ones known to have bred Orcs from other beings) to keep corrupting Elves or Men once they had a population of Orcs large enough to sustain and increase their own populations unless the evil Lord in question was specifically experimenting to try and create a new type of Orc. That seems to have been a rare event. Sauron had been using armies of Orcs for a very long time before he started trying to cross them with Men to improve their abilities to move and fight in the day. So, I would simply think the vast majority of Orcs were simply the offspring of earlier generations.
The question regarding Orcs such as Azog, Bolg, etc. is an interesting one. There's a theory floating around for quite some time that I like, namely that some of the Maia Melkor corrupted into his service ended up taking the physical forms of great Orcs and at some point some had offspring which founded the greater Orc lineages. This would have been roughly analogous to Men of Númenor being physically superior and much longer-lived than other Men.
what if the orc's won the battle of azunebulazar
Hi Darth!
When a mommy and a daddy do the special hug, where does the new fëa "come from"? Are there a trillion spiritual babies sitting in Heaven waiting for their chance to come down to Middle Earth for their chance at life? Does Eru create a new fëa at the moment of conception/birth? Do the parents' fëar have the ability to create a new one?
Tolkien drew a lot of his ideas from Catholic theology, which states that God creates each soul at the moment of its conception. Probably safe to assume Tolkien intended the same thing for fëar in Middle-Earth.
@@HoagsObject00 At conception, birth, or some time in between?
A lot of zygotes don't implant in the uterus properly, and of the ones that do, a lot of embryos end up as miscarriages. Would Eru grant all these beings fëar even though the "life" they'll live will be mere sparks?
@@General12th If we are to go by Catholic beliefs, then yes Eru would grant all beings fëar at conception.
Any miscarriages or other issues of that kind would be a result of Morgoth's marring.
Algormancy!
I'm guessing Hobbits would be the same as men.
Anyone else find it curious that a devout Catholic would effectively incorporate euthanasia into their story? In Catholicism suicide of any kind prevents you getting into heaven, yet the same thing does not apply to the Númenóreans in Tolkien's world. I wish the man was still alive, there are so many questions I'd like to ask him.
I'm more curious about what JRRT would do after hearing the Pope declare dogs go to heaven, in-universe this would give dogs a fëa.
@@jjs5191That catechism was made in 1992, well after Professor Tolkien wrote his works.
not at all
Númenóreans willingly giving up their lives when they felt death encroaching upon them was not the same as euthanasia or suicide. It was more like just "accepting your fate" and allowing death to take you.
@@HoagsObject00 correct answer
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that men and elves are biologically the same. They’re compatible, yes, but hardly the same. 😂
Similar and reproductively compatible but absolutely not the same. He even listed the differences before saying they were the same.
I was with you all the way through the entire video until at the end you said “your fea is your brain”… um what? That would mean any animal with a brain had a fea… and also that the incorporeal entities of middle earth would actually be just a floating brain running around wreaking havoc. I could fight off a floating brain… 🤣
Don't take what I say at the end of my videos seriously. But then, in this case, I would say avoiding damaging your brain is decent advice.
Ever see "Brain from the Planet Arous", (1957)?
I at least found it interesting, yes. Ok, I thought it was great.
Sorry but Tolkien was wrong on just one thing. Animals absolutely have fea. I will die on my hill.
who made the animals?
Or no one does
He can’t be wrong. He created it. lol. There would be a place in mandos halls if they had one.
@@forfun6273This.
@@forfun6273 I think Tolkien would reject that line of thought.