Fun fact; No two Primarchs have fought each other more times than Lion El'Jonson and Konrad Curze. 5 times did they try to kill each other in a straight fight. Konrad won the first by getting past the Lions superior swordsmanship and nearly strangling him. The Lion beat Curze so badly in the second duel, that Curze fell into a coma for several days. The third was a draw, as Curze escaped into the underbelly of the Lions Flagship. They hunted each other for 3 weeks with no winner. The fourth was on Macragge. Curze fought both The Lion and Guilliman, but it was a trap, so he could try and blow them both up. The fifth and final one was decisive. The Lion hunted down Curze in the mountains of Macragge, outsmarted his bomb-trap and beat him in a straight clash before breaking his claws and back.
Obi-wan was the master of defensive lightsaber combat, it’s why he was always coming out on top against aggressive duelists like Maul, Greivous, and Anakin, but would lose to a patient and lethal duelist like Count Dooku. He wasn’t a generalist, he specialized in the direct counter to everyone else’s specialty.
An interesting thing you can deduce about Guilliman (from the Dark Imperium in particular), his thinking/strategy about faceing (most of) his brothers in combat is "I don't think I can beat you, but I'll hold my ground (for I am the only one between my current forces that can do that) and by the time you'd get the upper hand, you would have already lost the grander battle." Excuse me endogenous with the first person narration.
One on one he wasn't a bad fighter, he was giving a powered up lorgar with some chaos strength a good go of it then he took angron and lorgar for a while, until angron went demon Prince. Having never fought anything like it before he didn't have anything to throw at angron or know what to do to defeat it.
@@A.DEN0 he was not beating the living shit out of g men, gmen was able to block his attacks but was severely getting pushed back by the ferocity of the assault, although angron would have died due to whatever the hell the butchers nails were doing, and so lorgar basically made angron a demon.
I think Colquan gives some pretty honest opinions about Gulliman’s fighting prowess throughout the dark imperium novels and especially in God Blight when G Man started slaughtering plague marines and Daemon engines before the custodians had even really reacted.
So he did what he should do? I would expect a Primarch to be able to slaughter plague marines and daemon engines, even before the Custodians do. He is supposed to be bigger faster and better than Custodies. I would expect this out of every single one of them.
One thing you have to remember is that you may get one over on Guilliman but you'll probably only get that trick to work that one time. Guilliman will learn
Correction regarding Lorgar v Corax: Lorgar says he knows, because he's been told by the fateweaver that Corax is one that would possibly kill him if he faced him alone. So Lorgar has never gone to fight Corax with any plans to beat him. Both times they fought, Lorgar simply placed himself between his sons and his brother, so Corax would stop butchering them.
And Regarding Guilliman v Lorgar. During the fight Lorgar was focused on Angron's ascension ritual. Not only that, but Lorgar saved Guilliman's life by completely stopping Angron's movement with a thought.
@@AlexanderForsman Wasn't there also prophecy or vision that if Lorgar would fight Guilliman on Calth he would kill him, but he would not succeed in creating ruinstorm?
@@AlexanderForsman , lorgar started the ritual when Ingram showed up up to that point he was fighting Guilliman and one-on-one and losing. Even bolstered by chaos he was still losing.
In a straight up war against Guilliman, I can see the Bobby G coming out on top because he would use everything at his disposal and yes that means his Legion. Horus himself showed his fear of the Ultramarines by keeping them preoccupied instead of going to war with them.
Read unremembered empire, this isn't the case at all, he's to noble and is very much in the End doesn't justify the means. The reason he nearly comes to blows with the lion us because the lion does follow the ends justify the means
"The primarch is, of course, their greatest asset, Thiel realises. Not because of his physical superiority, though that is hard to overestimate. It is because he is a primarch. Because he is Roboute Guilliman. Because he is simply one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium. How many beings could measure favourably against him? Honestly? All seventeen of his brothers? Not all seventeen. Nothing like seventeen. Four or five at best. At best." Perhaps we dont give him enough credit, even now.
I remember this quote. As awesome as it is I have to take it with a grain of salt. Thiel is biased in his father’s favor because he is his son. I think almost any Astartes from any legion would consider their Primarch to be one of the best fighters amongst their brothers. But who knows, even the weakest primarch is a god of war
@@wanabeguitarguy Although it is stated by one of his sons, I think the nature of the claim is actually very important. This line is written from the viewpoint of his son and even then he specifies that at about a fourth/third of the primarchs do have the upper hand. This implies knowledge of the other primarchs. A claim that Guilliman always has a reasonable(not guaranteed) chance of victory outside of the few who make him the underdog of the fight. giving cause to believe his actual heresy era self is quite an adversary. ((i think the current era guilliman fights were written unduly in that they demanded he have plot armor and were to show off other key players in the story.))
Guilliman ripped apart galvorbak (not sure of the spelling) marines when he boarded lorgar's ship.. He's hiding what he can really do at times.. I doubt we've seen everything he can do as a fighter.. The thing about that feat is that HE CHARGED HEADLONG WITHOUT ANY STRATEGY.. He led from the front, basically straight up channeled russ into his rampage..
Off the top of my head primarchs that would def beat him in a duel pre-heresy: Leman The lion Hawk boy Horus Ferrus Vulkan Fulgrim Conrad Khan Corax Magnus (if using his powers) The ones who would probably win: Angron Perty Morty Rogal
@@thecakewuzalie I totally buy that. I think Guilliman definitely has a chance at beating many of his brothers in a fight, I just don’t think he is among the better fighters personally. Not that he is a slouch in any way
Gulliman is a professional soldier. The others are warrior packs. He is a roman general leading legions versus mad dog armies. He is a realist on his abilities and this makes him more dangerous. He knew he would lose against Fulgrim, but faced him. Even the other loyalist legions are not as organised. He is a builder of empires. The others have kingdoms. He fights strategic, the others are tactical. He is Augustus the protector of civilisation. The others only see the martial side. He sees it all. Just as the Emperor does. Only Horus had similar vision, but he was perverted by chaos.
I have nothing against the guy. It was the propaganda fellation by our Spiritual Liege Matt Ward that made me dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Smurfs. Anything, the Oncoming Storm and Guilliman doing his best to keep the Imperium together have done much to restore him as a likeable character.
@@lockiet7227 You could. However the Khan was not impressed with the vision of the imperium. Technologies yes. Bureaucracy no. His vision would be freer movement,not industrial fiefdoms. The Khan's vision was loyalty to the people. Gulliman had a sense of duty, people with purpose and well treated. Both had a similar view from opposite poles. Protect your people, give them leadership and vision.
Similar to the comments about the Khan, you can also say the same about Dorn. Guilliman and Dorn are the two that had interplanetary/interstellar empires before they were found. Both of them know how to build and protect civilizations.
Vulkan as a combatant is the definitive example of, "I only have to hit you once, dexnerd." Consider that Conrad tortured him day after day for and extended period, and once Conrad came to face Vulkan, who was unarmed and unarmored, Conrad got absolutely bodied even while wearing full power armor.
@@georgesoha4725 Vulkan literally told Curze he always suppressed his strength when fighting his brothers, particularly when it came to curze because he was the most fragile weakest of them all. He then grabbed curze like a child and beat the crap outta him without any armor.
It's in his ruleset, and hinted by the Ultramarines during the novels: If you don't kill them off they will come back for you stronger, as they learn from their mistakes. In Guilliman's stats this is represented with his weapon skill increasing by 1 every turn when engaged in a 1 on 1 duel. In short you have to finish him quickly, because if you don't in the long run he will beat you and not just in strategy. I think Wolf Lord Rho does Guilliman a bit of a disservice: Guilliman *does* beat Corax in a simulator one on one, and not just because corax is unarmored. Its just that it takes time for him to learn. Next time he meets Fulgrim he will probably beat him. He is though 1 on 1 initially very weak.
Yeah, he gives it to Corax 8 in 10 times. But that's just going to be their starting odds. Each and every fight they have, the odds will swing more and more in Guillimans favour.
Rho does seem to frequently give the Ultramarines a disservice, because it’s trendy to do so. Honestly, superior strategy aside, the Ultramarines are likely one of the better legions all around. Probably 5th or 6th
Okay but here’s the thing about Alpharius/Omegon. When we discuss primarchs battling, we don’t say “but Magnus can’t use his psychic powers” or “but Curze can’t use his powers to see the future”, so why do we not allow Alpharius and Omegon to use one of their greatest powers? They are one soul in two bodies, the only time when they are fighting at their true potential and true level, is when they are fighting together. If they aren’t fighting together, then it’s the same as another primarch fighting with one arm tied behind their back.
True and at the same time what does Guilliman do best. Lead an army. No one is going to out smart the twins when they work together and they would have been hard pressed in a fight if both were coming at you.
Except they really aren't shown fighting together and fighting isn't their thing, they try and win wars without firing a single round. that's the reason Alpharius or Omegon noped the fuck out when faced with Russ, everyone knows how that ends and thats not how they wage war.
@@FoxHound-ut1hu they are shown fighting together actually, and they say that they actually relished it for once because all the times fighting without the other always felt like one hand was tied behind their backs.
@@FoxHound-ut1hu in the Alpharius Primarch novel we see Alpharius definitively state that for his whole life if fighting alone he felt something was missing, and when Omrgon fought beside him he started that they clearly where meant to be one fighter
@@josephzark6232+ This makes me strangely sad. That the Twins so rarely got to feel whole in all their life and then one of them gets killed so it can never happen again...
Perturabo has an indomitable will. While trading blows, he would eat the pain while Guilliman drowns in it. And then there's his tech, disgusting firepower, and fearless melee prowess, various stims of all kinds, his enhanced augmented mind and sensors. He's a mixture of Prometheus and Heracles. Beware those quiet types, they'll school you. He has prepared for every brother. Don't be surprised at Sanguinius losing his wing's effectiveness to his phosphex weapons. Batman gave Superman a well planned beating and humbling once. That's Perturabo's style.
I don’t think rogal decapitated alpharius. He swung the chain sword strait into alpharius head not across the neck. More brutal IMO cus he’s completely obliterating his skull.
Alpharius or Omegon... No guarantee Dorn even killed a Primarch. Even when they give us various "evidence" to back it up. There are no certainties with the Alpha Legion except that there are no certainties.
Guilliman always gave me the idea that he had something hiding away that we haven’t seen yet. Time after time Guilliman seems to spark with potential, both psychically and in strength, before it flutters out as quickly as it appears. There’s something hiding in the primarch. Does he have the skill to use that potential? That’s yet to he fully seen.
Mine you out of all the primarchs guilliman and horus are the only ones we don't know what their secret powers are. Everyone either been hinted at or flat out shown, but not guilliman, his power still hidden.
@@Fourtytwo4242 I thought that it was pretty well established that Horus has "charisma" and Roboute has "logistics" as their respective superpowers? It may not be as flashy as Corax turning invisible but both are absolutely OP in anything bigger than a 1v1.
@@wanderhillen2435 I get what you mean but Sanguinius was also incredibly charismatic to the point of being on par with Horus but he was also a flying angel man with op powers. Dorn and Perty were also pretty great at logistics but Dorn is a primarch level blank and Perty could understand completely any machine he looked at and had a special connection to the eye of terror. So while Guilliman and Horus may be the definitive best at logistics and charisma there are other primarchs who are at least comparable in those fields but also have some super special powers.
@@mcnuggets2825 bingo, yeah they are masters but really that more so how they were raised and trained, Guilliman is the man he is because of his parents, not because of his powers. He is still be question mark, he could have anything.
Bobby G is my favorite Primarch. And I'm not a bandwagon fan either. He's been my favorite since I started in 2000ish. Not Brawler, not a psyker (mostly), not a super tech savant. He's General in every sense of the word.
Gulliman to me is the absolute definition of the middle child. In most family dynamics the older brother is considered the mature one and serves as the role model to the other siblings the. Youngest brother ranges from a work in progress to the absolute problem child that gets the attention but no one really wants to deal with. Then finally you have the middle child he’s often overlooked doesn’t didn’t that many quirks lacks in the attention depart from both his other siblings and parents other than making sure he’s in the strait and narrow and for the most part is left alone to do his own thing. To me that just screens Rebute gulliman. Apart of what made Rebutes new character arc in 40k so interesting is that he is filling in a role he really isn’t used to. Back during the crusade and Hersey the limelight always always in Horus Sanguinius and the other first found primarchs while Gulliman was always to the side no that both of them are dead and the rest of his loyalist brothers are yet to return Gulliman must now must take on the mantel as only living loyal Primarch. I hate Gulliman in the heresy but in 40k he has definitely grown on me .Even though he’s a Primarch far beyond baseline human and space marine I can almost sense from the audiobook the weight on his shoulders and the seeming loneliness he’s going through. He has confidants but without his father or brothers to talk to he has no true equals. That is why it is essential that The Lion must return. Rebute needs a rock to rely on and though the lion is well known for his indomitable will and less than perfect social skills listening to the unremembered empire series it seems the only Primarch Lion el Johnson was ever able to somewhat open up to or at least have a frank conversation with is Gulliman. Some on the community think that when the lion wakes up the imperium could split between the two brothers one cool and calculated trying to get a grip on this new dark era while the other is vengeful wishing to make up for lost time and enact vengeance. This could be true but going back to the un remembered empire it would appear Gulliman and the Lion did reach a understanding but perhaps this wouldn’t change or it would be torn up after El Johnson learned what Gulliman did to the imperium and to his legion after the heresy. Why do u guys think?
I agree, the Lion is one of only 2 G man looked up too, the other being Horus. Also after UE and Ruinstorm they become much closer so the Lion coming back, being possibly the top general of the primarchs, would give G man the ability to focus on fixing the broken government of the Imperium while the Lion would focus on murderdestroying Xenos and traitors
While I agree the Lion needs to return for Guilliman’s sake, I think the Lion is closer to Russ by far. Recall the scene on Terra after the Heresy ended, and Lion stabbed Russ through the chest with his sword, eliminating the bad blood between them, ironically. Lion’s history with Guilliman is far more nuanced, though not really dislike. Lion actually went to Macragge with the idea that he was going to find Guilliman and the Ultramarines flirting with treachery. Lion even intended to raze Macragge until Sanguinius showed up and talked down the situation. That’s precisely why the Lion has to be the one returning. He suspected Guilliman during the GC of wanting to split off Ultramar as his own empire. And now that Guilliman is in the arguably best position to make this a reality, he is being tested in his loyalty. The Lion would be not just a great help to Guilliman, but to serve as a reminder to keep Guilliman on the straight and narrow.
In comparisons with his greatest strenght then as a statsman then none will be his equal. When it comes to battefield adaption he is on my seccond place just after Perturabo. And unless killed could beat any of his brothers in the long term in a war. As a closecombat fighter i still see him as medicore at best.
I agree, trying to suss out if he would beat brother X or brother Y in a fight is missing the point. It's like a boxer claiming he could take the epic level wizard in a fistfight. Of course he can, but the wizard would turn him into a frog before the match ever started. Guilliman wins the war before a single battle is ever fought, through superior training and logistics.
@@wanderhillen2435 Except against the Lion, who is every bit his superior when it comes to tactics and warfighting, and one of the few Guilliman looks up to. The First would likely rout the Ultrasmurfs in campaign.
You got some facts wrong... Russ didn't equate beating Guilliman to snapping his fingers. He was describing all the most likely rivals to him personally and notable opponents. He only mentioned Lorgar as being beaten by snapping his fingers. Also, Angron in Betrayer is described as being "in little better shape" than Guilliman. Guilliman takes on both Lorgar and Angron in that battle and still holds his own. Lastly, Curze vs Lion and Guilliman is governed purely by Curze's prescience. Without it he's an average tier Primarch who gets soundly beaten every time. When facing off against by Guilliman and the Lion, the Lion is badly wounded and Guilliman gets several unanswered wounds against Curze. Ultimately, Guilliman is considered in the top 5-7. It is remarked by the narrator in Know no Fear that Guilliman is only matched at best by 5 of his brothers. Guilliman never backs down from any of them and the watch pack themselves remark on his prowess.
I think Perturabo would win. He's the only primarch with the practical sense to cover himself in ballistic weapons, in addition to having a cool melee weapon.
@@TheAtomicSpoon ye, ye, ye man I know, Rho even mentioned it but he was a bit dismissive, instead of give Perturabo the credit he OWNS like a fkn boss! ;D
@@TheAtomicSpoon you have to remember the books are almost pure fan service, however if Angron has a soft spot for any of his brothers its Perturabo given, despite the 'lore' that came later re World Eaters and Word Bearers, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were the original battle brothers combo
@@TheAtomicSpoon+ He defeats Angron with a lot of help and some very heavy context. He freely admits himself he wouldn't stand a chance in a "fair" 1v1 battle.
Why are you counting a chaos boosted filgrim beating a ferris that just went through a huge traumatic event if you aren’t gonna count Horus beating sanguinius.
Aside from Lorgar back in the day I only see a few that would be possible. Coin toss on those. Prolonged military large scale type stuff I nearly always give to him. He brings the right stuff there.
Guilliman is just like Batman in DC. Like, how does Batman beat Superman? The answer is, give him enough prep time to study and deconstruct the fighting style of his opponent. I saw someone comment on the video about who could beat Angron about how Guilliman would do it, and he was absolutely right. He said, Angron probably can't exist in the materium for long, and there are probably a bunch of cultists somewhere channeling some ritual to bind his presence. Guilliman would figure this out and send some assault terminators to slaughter the cultists, and he just needs to stall Angron long enough by taunting him and evading him, while his plan unfolds behind the scenes. That's the true power of being the greatest strategic mind.
I think he has potential to become greater. He always looked up to the Lion, as both a warrior and leader. He wanted his Legion to have the co-ordination and order of the 1st Legion. If he returned Jonson could play the part of stern but occassionally affectionate older brother. Encouraging Guillimans battle ability and tactical capability. I believe the Lion could improve his diplomacy and statesmanship,yet would choose not to! This of course rests on Guilliman not trying to order El Jonson to abide by the codex astartes,and placing all the resources of the Imperium available for Jonson to refit and return his legion to their former glory.
Would love to see a video like this for all of the Primarchs. That aside, I really appreciate the fact that with Ferrus, the end result was: "I feel like Ferrus would win, however, from what we've actually seen, we have to objectively go with Robute." Being able to put aside personal biases in favour of what is actually shown is a hard thing to do and I appreciate seeing it here. That said, I still disagree as even just the statements of his other bothers seem to be more than enough to indicate that Ferrus would have been able to slap Guilliman for the most part. I frankly would have put Guilliman as having lost to Perturabo myself - and I'd have used his fight vs Angron to justify it. Not because he beat Angron head to head (he didn't) but because he was able to weather Angron's assault long enough for the Red Angel to weaken before putting him down. I honestly don't think Robute could put out that much damage in that short a space of time by comparison and as a result, I think Perturabo would be able to outlast Guilliman in the end. Just my 2 cents anyhow as I largely agree with the rest.
Middle of pack….but he definitely has intangibles that make him a great warrior. His love for macragge , his love for Konor and Eurten . If Guilliman is your champion in a trial by combat scenario you are in great hands.
I think you are right. Also in 40k I think he is stronger than ever....He feels like he is the imperiums only hope. When everyone is counting on you people tend to hit a little hard and last a bit longer than they should.
I think realistically you could only consider the top tier combatant primarchs in that scenario: The Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Horus, Jaghatai, and Curze, with an honourable mention to Magnus due to the deus ex machina nature of psyker powers. Even then, two against one would be a stretch (nigh on impossible) for any of them
@@Erika_Redmark Dorn isn't top Tier and did a number on one of the brothers. I think Russ, Sanguinius, Corax (who you missed) out of the loyalists would shred the brothers. Of the non-loyalists, Fulgrim, fully-powered Angron, and Mortarion would all beat the brothers. If we're talking about a fully-powered horus / his twin Abaddon - think that would be an easy win as well.
Yeah in the beginning of the duel Fulgrim was trying to talk to Dorn but after Dorn drew first blood. Fulgrim really tried to kill him. Each strike was described as a killing blow but Dorn managed to keep his guard while suffering a few wounds. Not to mention Dorn ran Fulgrim through, it was only because Fulgrim was demon empowered that he didn’t die. Also Fulgrim left because Dorn made him realize how terribly the Emperors Children Assault played out and Fulgrim declared he had enough of the whole civil war bs and left to commit atrocities. (After that there is an awesome scene where Sigismund and Dorn fight back to back against 50 Emporers Children elite). I do think that Dorn and Guilliman would have a pretty evenly matched duel however in my personal opinion I think Dorn is the better duelist. I wouldn’t be surprised if the writer of a Dorn vs Guilliman duel had Gman win because of the current state of the lore though. However maybe Dorn won the duel and because of that Gman forced him to accept the codex or declare him a traitor. However it goes, I hope they don’t do disservice to Dorn. All I know is that we need more 30k era primarch duels.
I don't feel like I'm well versed in the lore to actually say this one is better than that one. That being said... Guilliman is "from" Ultramar and was taught their style of fighting (not saying he didn't already know how to fight, because the Emperor "preprogrammed" all of the primarchs) which is based off of the Roman military (I think). If that is so the individual is not meant to be the "big bad @$$" as in other military units, say like the Space Wolves which are based off of Vikings (and they prized individual fighting/accomplishments). So Guilliman wouldn't necessarily be a great individual fighter, nor do I think it would bother him so much. I think it would bother him more if you said he wasn't a team player, or that he couldn't see another way to fight a battle. In my opinion (not that it really matters, for many reasons) leaders must be good fighters, and even better strategists/tacticians. So he's probably middle of the road as an individual fighter/swordsman/marksman.
Fair points.. But remember that a roman formation while emphasizing team work, it also requires each individual to be strong fighters in order to fully fight effectively with their fellow soldiers.. So I'd think that guilliman would be at least a little concerned if he didn't measure up to his brothers in terms of fighting prowess..
@@lavatun , only if he was fighting in formation with them. His doctrine of war would never include that cuz the idea of having to fight side by side with one of his brothers in formation is ludicrous you've clearly done something wrong if that were to occur.
in the case of magnus lets be honest, magnust SHOULD win, but there would undoubtedly be some bullshit that prevented him from using his psykick powers, i mean i remember that scene were malcador froze horus in place with his powers alone and horus could do nothing, but then magnus, perhaps an even stronger psyker and ofcourse much bigger faster and stronget etc couldnt do anything similar with russ? russ could just run up to him and do some stupid WWE combos? yeah thats some hardcore plot armor right there
Magnus has telekinetic powers strong enough to lift people into orbit, unless that somehow doesn't work on brother primarchs he should be able to do that to anyone dumb enough to face him in anything resembling melee. The only way to kill someone like that is through ambush (good luck against a future-seeing mind reader), from sufficient distance with exterminatus or if you are some sort of uber-level blank. Maybe Russ has bullshit hax with his howl but it seems more like plot armor than anything else. A primarch tier warrior is just not as powerful as a primarch tier wizard.
During the Siege of Terra, Magnus psychically lifted a Capitol Imperialis tank explicitly stated to weigh 67,000 tonnes, and threw it like a football (while also freezing it in time so it wouldn't explode until it hit the wall). I don't care how much "resistance" Russ has to psychic powers, Magnus should have crushed him like a beer can.
Not quite sure if the Lord of Iron fight would be that close. I would honestly put Pert and Dorn in the same category in combat. And I think Dorn would clean house with Guil.
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 agreed. Outside of Sang, Lion and Horus those brothers could best him… than there's Jag, Pert, Fulgrim, Rus and I will include Kurze who would be around the same level as Dorn. I'm not including Vulcan or Magnus for obvious reasons.
I will say one thing if Guilliman embraces his inner warp powers and the faith and worship of the imperium he will probably be on the level of Horus in his chaos champion form
you gotta give Bobby G some props though, he got in the ring with some of those who he knew would probably end him; Angron, Fulgrim, Lion, etc. I think if he had time to prepare, like with Perturabo and Angron, things could be quite different.
No way Bobby g beats Magnus even in a straight fight, Magnus up took on russ in a very close fight would of killed him before his wolves intervened, he battered vulkan for most of there fight and not forgetting he was trying to kill the emporer at the same time
Magnus was not at his Full strength. Who was the Emperor without his Psychic might? Magnus is a top tier Primarch unhindered. He's is sharded now as a Daemon Primarch. Roboute now carries the Emperor's presence with him.
In terms of a duel (1 on 1) I don't think Guilliman is highly ranked, his more of a strategist, I can't honestly put him above any of his brothers in fighting style or strength!
@@standarddeviation7963 He is still a Primarch and a Son of The Emperor is no slouch but when it comes to fighting his brothers he would be hesitant and most of the others have either a unique fighting styles or strength on their side!
He is holding back his true potential. Also we dont have a lot of examples of him facing many of his brothers One on One before they became daemons. Only one I remember is Curze and that was an ambush more than a fair fight.
The lord of iron got sold short, not only did he: *beat D.Angron, *fight D.Mortareon for 7 hours *surviving Fulgrim's ascension and exploding his body with 1 blow of forge breaker *cunning enough to decimate Dawn leading the Imperial Fists *trusted enough by Horus to not only slap Angron into compliance by lead the siege on Terra In a battle of legions they are similar but Perty is willing to cross many more lines, with his cold calculating methods in a 1 vs 1 he would know Guliman's weakness and be willing to go further to achieve victory - I would compare him to Batman in the justice league - he is your ally but knows your weakness, has said method prepared at all times and would not hesitate to employ said method, if it was a loosing battle he would have a method to leave and come back when there is a better chance - I would support this by his inability to trust people - how things played out in his Homeworld then further deepening the wound when he trusted Fulgrim(food for assentation)/Horus(used)/Magnus(gave into desire).
And he messed up an armoured Fulgrim face with his toy warhound and choked him on the wall like a punk. In his tunic, pure muscle and fierce will, like Ferrus.
While it's nice to see how the Primarchs compare in single combat, that's not what they were created for. They were created to be generals who could run campaigns spanning multiple star systems. I'd love to see you rank them based on that metric.
I think there's no need , the list goes (in universe ofc) 1- Horus 2- Dorn 3- Guilliman Even Horus admitted that Guilliman might be better than him in the art of war , but in terms of victories only Dorn comes close to him.
@@горяаялиниямаиами even there i think you cant count out the angle that easy. Hes a figure that would spawn unlimited soldiers with kriegmans moral just because they know they are fighting for him. My ranking there would be 1. Horus 2. Sanguinius 3. Guilliman 4. Dorn Even Horus said that Sanguinius would be the better Warmaster so he has to be atleast 2de on that list. With 1 and 2, 3 and 4 be very close and a gap between 2 and 3.
Perturabo needs a mention here if we're counting Dorn as well. They are practically 2 sides of the same coin. Having said that, Guilliman would be pretty much top tier as a strategist in complete co yeast to his position as a raw fighter).
@@горяаялиниямаиами You're forgetting the greatest general of all the Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson. He amassed victories more quickly than the Lunar Wolves, had better imperial compliance than the lunar wolves, and likely would have been Warmaster if it was simply a measure of strategic ability. The only reason The First fell out of the lead in campaigns, and The Lion out of favor for warmaster, is because they were dispatched to face enemies no other Legion was capable of defeating, the Rangdan, and got mauled considerably for their complete victory. Alpharius appeared before The Lion and pleaded with him to let the Alpha Legion carry on the war against the Rangdan and spare his legion to ensure he became Warmaster over Horus.
1. Roboute Guilliman 2. Rowboat Gorillaman 3. Girlyman 4. Papa Smurf 5. Horus/Lion 6. Dorn/Perturabo 7. most other primarchs 8. Lorgar 50. Angron This isn't even a contest. Dude conquered 500 worlds without the unlimited ressources of the Imperium behind him or gene-enhanced, loyal to death sons/space marines around. Or even generally favourable equipment as the warmaster position and/or a secret arsenal of doomsday weapons would grant.
I don't see Guilliman EVER being able to beat Curze or Corax. I also don't see him being able to win against Fulgrim, unless Fulgrim would not even care to try to fight him, like he did with Dorn.
@@jkgf4671 correct me if I'm wrong but didn't russ beat horus in a one on one and then hesitated to kill him wouldn't that mean he could beat guliman as well or was horus not fully powered up then
The real problem I have with ranking Alpharius is that we don't know what happened to him when Omegon was killed. Was his soul reunited and he returned to full power, or was he like forever missing his other half? Or did he have some ritual cast to return his soul to him? Tough to say.
Also, the idea that Guilliman killed Alpharius is super suspect. Besides it would just be boring, why kill Alpharius when he could be a returning character who is more interesting.
As much as it would be fun to see Guilliman taking to the field again with Gauntlets of Ultramar it is unlikely seeing as Marneus Calgar grew pretty acustomed to this old relic. I would like to learn more about this artifacts. 2ed codex gave us very little lore on them but it sounds pretty intriguing. The very fact they fit standard sized marine, but can also fit a primarch is quite suprising.
The gauntlets of ultramar's inner mechanisms shift around to fit the hands of the wielder I think.. Kinda like the infinity gauntlet that tony stark made when the hulk puts it on.. It was the size of a normal human hand at first but then resized itself to be able to fit on hulk's hand..
One point about Corax vs Guilliman in that training simulation. If I remember correctly, after the fact Roboute said something like: "But you are getting more used to the simulation." Remember, this is not a real physical combat, it was more akin to game, which you need to be used to controlling. They was actually sitting on the couch the whole time. Guilliman of course had way more experience with this particular simulation technology, so it was basically like Elden ring veteran who plays it since release vs dude who just picked it up a week ago. First one is going to win, even if the second one is heavyweight MMA champion. Now, do not get the wrong idea, I am not trying to diminish Guilliman here. Beiing a bit weaker combatant than Corvus is still pretty good.
I don't know to be honest how high up the rank list guilliman would come he would do pretty well I think because he is a strategist it's the reason I collect the ultra marines I myself really love strategy games and guilliman is a empire builder he has good strategies when it comes to war. What would be a good rank list similar to this video would be rather than a one on one fight between primarchs a rank list for were the ultra marines legion would come fighting a one on one battle against one of his brothers legions. So based at a time where all the legions are at their peak in strength and power so I would assume 30k before half the legions turned to chaos would be a good way to balance it.
If both Vulcan and Angron would beat Gman then Ferrus would smoke him. As you say, some styles are super effective against others and I think Ferrus was hard done by to be shown only against a daemonic Fulgrim, easily one of the best duelists even before the chaos boost. Ferrus' early life and the respect from his brothers is miles ahead of what Gman ever gets.
No, Fulgrim thought he was one of the best. Much like his son's time and time again he has had to cheat to win. It's true he was definitely in the top 20 in the Galaxy in dueling, vs another primarch fighting a war is another story.
"The Lion failing to see the humor" is a nice euphemism for "The Lion knocking Russ out cold after first disarming him and getting suckerpunched for not wanting to kill him". 🙃
To be fair both fights against fulgrim were stacked against him. The first time it was a sucker punch and the second time fulgrim was enhanced by chaos. So I don’t think using those fights is fair to ferrus
With Alpharius, my personal headcanon is that it was Omegon on Pluto and that Alpharius is still out there. Especially since, the Alpha Legion's inner circle during the Heresy and Scouring were the original Astartes that got modified to look like their Primarch. Alpharius was working against the traitors from within, and now his sons are caught in a civil war to weed out the truly loyal to those who have fallen to Chaos. Think about it, Omegon was found behind the lines of the Rangdan Xenocides and then you meet a collation (the cabal) of unlikely aliens, what is to say that Omegon wasn't compromised by the Rangdan Psykers? I will be fair with Corax, in that he isn't a mind reader. By that point in the Heresy, very few if anyone was aware of Konrad's visions. Remember that Dorn learned it from Fulgrim, which he didn't believe and its doubtful Dorn thought it as pertinent information to pass along. With his Wraithslip, Corax would have had an advantage against Curze and he's right for thinking it, but Konrad's visions are something out of context that Corax has no awareness or defence against. Konrad is a vicious and brutal fighter, the Lion comparing him to a wild animal he'd hunt, and he was considered such even before his visions returned just before the Heresy. I feel like Lorgar just defeats himself, and hey... if it was Guilliman who ended up on Colchis instead of Guilliman, perhaps they'd be swapped. Combat ability aside, a feel that Lorgar and Guilliman were designed with similar strength levels in mind. They are essentially foil to each other; the learned administrator and the well-spoken philosopher, application of the physical and deliberation of the metaphysical. Ah, the Lion. Its funny that when Leman is in that scene talking with Malcador about the Primarchs, he doesn't mention the Lion ONCE. Name's taboo, speak it and he'll appear. Its a similar thing that I think Guilliman is doing in the current timeline, mentioning every other Primarch and begging to all the Gods that ever existed that they come back before the Lion otherwise he's gonna get a spanking off big brother *_again_* Lol! But yeah, the Wolf King is proud but we can dig into the reason he doesn't mention or acknowledge the Lion at all is a niggling bit of guilt in the back of his mind, because Leman clearly knows things and yet he doesn't know how he caused this bad blood with the Lion, a brother who is the most like him and he can generally get on with. He didn't know how he did it and would never admit to it therefore, but it niggles there at the back of his mind. And that contributes to why after the Heresy, in their rematch he just stands there with arms wide and welcomes the furious/grieving Lion's blade through his primary heart. To wash away bad blood, in a waterfall from one's heart, true beauty.
One thing to keep in mind of Jagatai vs mortarion. In that fight Jagatai can sense and see that mortarion is infused with an unnatural power. mortarion was clearly already receiving power from chaos. I do think Jagatai would have won that fight regardless so not a good way to judge a fight between Guilliman and mortarion
Alpharius wasn't killed by rogal dorn, It was omegon who changed his name to alpharius that was killed, Omegon who was alpharius, devestated by this changed his name to alpharius to honor alpharius who was omegon. Omegon-Alpharius-Dead Alpharius-Omegon-Alpharius-Alive
Omegon was the OG Alpharius raised by the Emperor, reading between the lines of his Novel. And yeah, Alpharius died vs Dorn. Omegon, now Alpharius forever more and the first Alpharius until Omegon or the Alpharius of the Great Crusade that was presented to his Legion, felt him die.
Love your stuff. Noticed you’ve mentioned Alpharius being dead a few times and I’d really suggest reading the novella, The Serpent Beneath, if you haven’t already. In that book it details a process where one of the XXth primarchs transfers their consciousness and personality to a Captain of the legion. In that case it was Cpt Sheed Ranko. Spoilers but Ranko dies in that and there are very much still two primarchs after. Now, fast forward to the engagement in the Battle of Pluto and Alpharius vs Dorn. It was just the same thing afaik. Once again, a Primarch transfers their essence to a Legionnaire and dies. But oddly, this time it’s supposed to mean the actual death of the Primarch? It’s just something I keep thinking of in the lore and would love your take sometime with the destruction of Tenebrae Station/The Serpent Beneath in mind to consider the Battle of Pluto against.
I think the more matches you put him up against a brother the more likely he is to win. Out of all, he is the most dangerous over time as he will learn how to defeat anyone. Even Russ or others. if he fought Russ a 100 times, and Russ didn't murder him by then, Guilliman would be become extremely dangerous to Russ and even surpass him. But only him. that doesn't necessarily translate to fighting anyone else. The process starts all over again. That is why he is so good at running an empire. He starts with a solid foundation and logistics. This gives him the buffer to learn and then dominate an enemy over time.
I don't think he "forgets" valuable combat skills like that. Same tactics that work vs Russ might not be all aplicable vs the Lion, but if he learn to fight on par with Russ he will be able to best most opponents.
I just can't agree that Perturabo might lose to Guilliman. In his duel with Angron he took a tremendous amount of beating and was willingly holding himself back as to NOT kill Angron. I'd say at least in 8 out of 10 duels Perturabo will be the winner. As to the duel with Ferrus Manus - maybe i'm a bit biased, i really like Manus, but i kind of agree with you to a certain extent. His track record is not really good and Guilliman could be a more skilled swordsman. But... the Gorgon comes from a warrior/survivalist culture and i think he actually is more skilled warrior/brawler, and on top of that i think he was described as the physically strongest primarch, stronger than even Vulkan (please correct me if i'm wrong). So i think that one's closer to a draw actually.
Vulkan is hands down the strongest physically.. Ferrus is a very close second.. Don't forget that vulkan once tossed a tank (a baneblade if I'm not mistaken)
And sheer amout of firepower Perty brings to the fight would also matter Because he doesn't need to get close to best his brother he just needs to see him
@@skaut_games7644 exactly everyone's forgetting what everyone's strong points are one-on-one duels or one thing but I do believe it was Gilliman who said he would never call out Perterabo because Perterabo would just Nuke him.
Ranking them is stupid as fuck almost all primarch fights end with stupid errors or intervetions for the plot and not all primarchs have fight enought of their brothers
It’s a secret, although it is implied that Leman Russ at least suspects something akin to another primarch existing. The short version is that they are discussing the roles of the primarchs and Russ asks what Alpharius’ role is. When Alpharius replies that his role is to keep the emperors secrets, Russ (very pointedly) retorts that if that’s Alpharius’ role then he’s surprised that there’s only one of him. As with most things 40k, it’s intentionally not explained, so it’s left up to your own imagination to decide wether Russ already knows, simply suspects, or is just musing.
Do u think one of the lost Primearchs is the leader of the grey knights and stronger then the other Primearchs idk would bee interesting or is it confirmed those two will never be found or are dead
Honestly Guilliman has the super administration/organization super power which just translates into him being awesome at logistics. As General Omar Bradley famously said: “Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics.” Its what makes the Imperium with Guilliman leading super dangerous. Its what makes Guilliman the most dangerous of his brothers, not how fast he can swing the sword.
I would bet that Guilliman’s prowess just hasn’t been seen because he’s the least ragey and savage of the rage gods. I would bet people assume others over him because they get battlelust and put themselves in unnecessary situations that lead to big feats more often
I think this like asking a pro-level chess player who works out to fight a bodybuilder/MMA fighter depending on the brother. Guilleman just isn't a fighter. He is still a primarch, but his skill comes from wielding his army and economy. Logistics-wise, the ONLY primarch coming within a county mile is Perturabo.
@@commissarlugh1040 dorn had the advantage of fixed defensive position which are a force multiplier and pertarabo still broke through while commanding a bunch of insane nutjobs.
I thought you would’ve done this type of video ages ago for Leman Russ. After Russ talked about it in wolves bane I thought for sure you would rank the brothers against Russ
My issue with your Alpharius part of the video is that, we are really unsure if the twin that died was Alpharius or Omegon. Alpharius found Omegon with his spear, Russ faced the ttwin who was carrying a sword. Dorn faced the one wielding a spear. Plus, trying to convince Dorn into surrender is a futile attempt. Alpharius was there when they first found Dorn. He had spies in fists before they even found their primarch. He knows Dorn. Omegon, not so much. Its a stupid impulsive act which someone educated by malcador wouldent do.
@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 I am not sold on Horus' abilities as a strategist or a tactician. As far as the Lion, he's a great tactician, but I think Roboute is a superior strategist. The Lion would win the battles, but Roboute would win the war.
The lion is way to high on that list as is Curze. Logar, yes he's a bitch, would still stomp the floor with the twins. The twins were smaller and weaker then Thier brother. It's stated by one of them in the horse heresy novels when they stand before Horace and realize how much smaller they are.
@@Ashtor1337 I disagree. Lorgar has repeatedly shown himself to be the weakest and least combat effective of all the Primarchs. Alpharius at the very least matched Dorn at th beginning of their battle. Compared to Lorgar, who has been handling defeated/beaten down by many of the Primarchs. As for Curze and the Lion, I truly believe they are the best combatants under our loveable angel boy. The Lion has been called and shown to be one of the most skilled swordsmen in 40k. Managing to outmanuveur and ultimately best Konrad's future sight. Only the Khan rivals the Lion in the Combat speed. For Curze, my reasoning here is he has been shown to not only be one of the most ferocious fighters amoung his brothers, with both Roboute and Sanguinius speaking of the danger he poses in close combat. His future sight gives him an enormous advantage in combat. Now, yes he has been defeated by both the Lion and Vulkan, but the former is as previously stated a freaking sword saint and the latter caught him by surprise and Konrad was nearly completely broken mentally at this point. I believe it essentially comes down to this, in single combat without chaos empowerment. Can the Lion/Konrad defeat everyone below them. And my Answer is yes.
Your list sucks. No idea why Sanguinius is number 1. He is greatly overrated. And Magnus? He is the most powerful Primarch in absolute terms and Angron was a gladiator and warrior his whole life.
Guilliman and Lorgar are equally matched during the Horus Heresy, but no chance now with Lorgar as a daemon primarch. Not unless the Emperors sword has some secret tricks we dont know about.
My personal 1v1 ranking also had him at the 14th place now that you've made me count it. Crusade era ranking: 1. Sanguinius 2. Horus 3. Cruze 3. Lion 5. Russ 6. Fulgrim 7. Corax 8. Khan 9. Vulkan 10. Angron 11. Ferrus 12. Magnus 13. Dorn 14. Guilliman 15. Perturabo 16. Mortarion 17. Alpharius 18. Lorgar
Wasn't it stated that Angron was the only other Primarch who could beat Sanguinius aside from MAYBE Horus?? He certainly defeated Russ even if his army was outmaneuvered and he ended up in a kill zone. Even then, his World Eaters took more skulls than the Wolves did and Russ didn't argue when Angron claimed that even if he died, his legion would go on to kill the rest of Russ' legion. . I agree with your list for the most part though I'm curious about your reasoning for having Curze so high (rather than around Corax level), Ferrus where he is, Angron anywhere near as low as he is, and Guilliman higher than anyone aside from Alpharius and Lorgar. Even Dorn seems a little low and if we're being realistic, I'm not sure there's any reason why Magnus should be on top given the scale of his powers. Being second to only the Emperor in power and being more than capable of sitting on the Golden Throne indefinitely - despite the effort of doing so for more than a few hours turned Malcador to dust - seem a like something that would elevate Magnus to the top of the list simply by using his powers to overwhelm any of his brothers.
@@justinanderson2460 Obviously my 40k lore isn't as complete as I'd like, so especially in regards to Ferrus I really struggle to know the scope of where his strength should be. As for everyone else you talked about I think they're all really hard to place, especially Magnus. Russ to me seems like he sort of allows himself to be beaten against Angron, the Lion and even Horus to some degree. But I think it's equal parts that compared to him being unable to discard his emotions and be this cold blooded executioner. So is his full potential as high as I've put him? I don't know. I think I'm too biased against Angron, as I feel he would just "slip up" against too many primarchs, despite his ridiculous combat prowess. And with Curze I think his foresight is just too OP on top of him being a top tier fighter primarch. If I remember correctly he is 1:1 with the Lion -but would have killed him if he wasn't stabbed through his back/collarbone. And the Lion is my highest rated primarch when it comes to fighting without having the plot-armor that Sanguinius and Horus have(with Sanguinius being presented as the best fighter, Horus the best of the best, and them both having to die where they're written to die). So that makes Curze as dangerous as I've put him by process of elimination. Though I could just as likely place him below Russ and above Fulgrim. I also think that, yes -Guilliman is a statecrafter and strategist rather than a fighter, but because he is so brainy it bleeds into his fighting and makes him better than most people give him credit for. When he isn't borderline suicidal like in the current lore he should be able to outsmart opponents that are magnitudes better than him, and therefor out""skill"" them even in 1v1 combat. Magnus has the biggest "scope" of powers, period. But I don't think he is that great at applying those powers to combat, or at least not in regard to 1v1-ing other primarchs. There are also Primarchs like Russ, Dorn and the Lion who have bullshit anti-warp powers, so that would drive him down the list. But he IS hard to place, because theoretically he should be able to do major psyker BS unless the battle isn't initiated completely against him. Though I also think he is so prideful that he could be baited into melee against his brothers. Lastly I agree with Dorn being a bit low. But I feel like Perterado, Mortarion, Guilliman, Alpharius and Dorne are all "battlefield commanders + something else" rather than being primarily fighter primarchs. Drone and Alpharius can function as independent actors, but I don't think they're necessarily made to hammer primarch level foes without the encounter being engineered by them.
@@PigeonCrash + Ferrus is, I do agree, hard to place. He's not quite the the list Fulgrim is but he's almost as strong as Vulcan physically. Over all we just don't have nearly enough to go on compared to most of his brothers. . Russ didn't lose to the Lion at all. He stopped fighting and then got sucker punched. Besides, neither were out for blood so that's far from definitive. Horus vs Leman is also kinda hard because Horus was empowered (at least to some degree) by Chaos but Russ was wielding a specifically Anti-Chaos weapon. That said, he did have Horus essentially beat but his emotions get the better of him and it allowed Horus to turn the tables at the end and escape. . I have to disagree with Angron though. Russ allowing himself to lose is a possibility I suppose but considering that Angron left snapped his sword, beat him into he ground and left Russ crawling away, spitting up his own blood, I can't imagine Russ, with the pride he has, taking such a vicious beating - especially in front of his sons - just to try and prove a point. He was, after all tasked by the Emperor to bring Angron to heel but Russ deemed this something he could not accomplish and ended up leaving instead. I'm actually interested about what you mean by "slip up" and where you get the idea. When you consider his history as a gladiator (where "slipping up usually means your death) and his own rage combined with the Butcher's Nails driving him to fly comic almost every time, I personally can't see him exactly making mistakes. . The foresight thing really is a big bonus and it's hard to fight against. The Lion did it but he's arguably the best swordsman of the lot when we're talking overall skill. Horus is yes, the best of me best in practically everything but gets edged out in specializations Sanguinius is almost as skilled as the Lion but has his inner ferocity AND a clearer, more pure version of Konrad'a pre-cognition on top of that. Plus... y'know... flight. I appreciate your reasonable logic in the placing of Curze though. I personally do oscillate between having him essentially where you have him and then down at Corax level but even then, Corax fluctuates for me as well so it's kinda up in the air for me. This is why I like getting other people's views and thoughts on it. . I see what you mean with Guilliman and I do agree to an extent however, I think it's more of a "gets better against a foe each time he loses". Think of the simulation where Corax actually defeats Guilliman in a strategic battle the fist time they try it, bit then never wins again. Similarly, I think Guilliman has the benefit of improving more and more each time against a specific foe but at the same time, I do think that this would only stretch so far - particularly in raw combat where he is one of the lesser skilled and gifted innately. He definitely gets roo much crap in my opinion however, I still see most of the other Primarch's also having their own advantages which help balance out Guilliman's tactical prowess - particularly in a one on one combat where his strategies are far more limited than in larger scale engagements. . I know I already mentioned this, but Malcador was able to body and even outright intimidate even the Primarchs with his powers and Magnus is a tier against above Malcador. The Sigilite literally his a planet in the Warp woth his powers and thendragged it out again later. The guy was ridiculous. I do agree with some of your sentiment about Magnus being baited into melee and his pride and so on however, I'm more in the camp of it basically being for plot that Magnus wouldn't just turn most of his brothers into a peanut butter sandwich on contact if he so chose to. I get that Russ has anti-psyker properties which is part of the reason he won against Magnusin canon - combined with the Sisters of Silence and the fact he got a lucky shot in that hit Magnus in his psyker Eye (I mean Russ literally lashed out blindly after being smacked himself and his happened to hit Magnus where he was weakest) and despite all this, he still nearly died. Corn is so reasonable that the Warp literally recoiled from his presence so there's that. Bit what anti-psyker abilities does the Lion have?? And even with this stuff, There's no reason Magnus couldn't just grow himself to the size of a Titan again and step on them. He's even slowed/stopped time before. It's a little hard to see how he doesn't defeat practically anyone without some degree of plot set against him . I think Dorn was always a commander+ type until more recent lore that had him as a master swordsman up that with the best of them. Then again, he IS hard to place above a lot of others as well. I've never really seen mortarion as the commander type in the same way I see Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman and Alpharius, I'm curious why you see him that way. I don't personally have a completely ironed out list myself, I'm still working on it and need to reread the Horus Heresy books but I do enjoy collecting knowledge and opinions (and the reasoning behind them) from others to add to my own.
@@justinanderson2460 The Lion and Russ were both out for blood after Russ tackled the lion. Its stated as much that both are bloodied in multiple places. However with before it turns into a brawl The Lion defeats him soundly, and the book makes a point that the Lion viewed it as an honor duel because he never followed through with his killing blow when he disarmed Russ. There is no canonical statement of nobody being able to defeat Sanguinius, and if you had to pick a single primarch to win a fight 1v1 against any other The Lion is likely your best bet. Malcador outright states amongst his brothers he's the apex predator, and his brothers are unnerved by him. Guilliman states outright he knows he's overshadowed by The Lion. Horus is so afraid of him he sends the Dark Angels to the opposite side of the galaxy because he knows they'd whoop his band of traitors probably by themselves. The Lion is also the perfect counter to Curze and Sangy's precognition. Canonically The Lion is such an instinctually perfect fighter he's capable of thwarting Curze's precog. Curze see's the next blow, moves to block it, The Lion instinctually recognizes it and changes the attack. Curze could see the future and was caught completely unawares when The Lion stabs him.
@@djii7837+ To be fair, I haven't read the Lion's and Russ's brawl since just after it came out so I'd have to go re-read it again. . Concerning Sanguinius, read again friend. I said that it was stated that only Angron and possibly Horus would be able to take down Sanguinius. I believe it was Corax who said this but o could be mistaken there. . A lot of what you said is also likely, but not concrete. Malcador's statement IS a very high commendation because the Sigilite is not known for his boasting or favouritism - which likely means he's right. Guilliman does feel overshadowed by the Lion yeah, but it's less unnerved or afraid and more like he feels his big brother is like the golden child who he is in the shadow of - which, at least compared to most of his brother except maybe Horus and Sanguinius, is kinda true of El'Johnson. However, Horus being afraid is up for debate. It's arguably more likely that he knew the Lion's affinity for military command, his strategic genius and the overall power of his Legion (From size to prowess) was something that could really mess with his plans. . I remember Curze having his pre-cog fooled by the Lion and yes, that give a him a very good edge against his brothers who have it. The Lion is definitely up there among the top fighters of his brothers and is undoubtedly the best duelist among them. However, I struggle to see him overcoming all of them as some have advantages that he can't as easily counter along with comparable skill. Moreover, not every battle is a duel and we've seen that be an issue for him in the past (for example, Curze managing to defeat him once he forced the fight to become a brawl - despite the Lion getting Konrad with a surprise stab to the gut before the fight even started).
He could beat... Lorgar. Dassit lol. Lion? Pipe dream. Fulgrim? HAH. Perturabo? Stop it. Jaghatai? Too slow. Russ? WOOF. Dorn? No. Curze? *Maniacial laughter*. Sanguinius. Ferrus? Nope. Angron? Chainaxes go burrrr! Mortarion? Too weak. Magnus? Warp spaghetti get er ready. Horus? He was the best of them. Vulkan? A bear hug would be enough. Corvus? Nahhhhh. Alpharius? Too straightforward
Alpharius's body died, yes. But. In the story, Alpharius literally got his psykers to essentially take his brain/memories/soul and put it into one of his commanders. So, essentially while Alpharius's body died, he himself lived on.
on the point of Alpharius against Valdor, if i recall correctly he was wearing auramite Armour he had taken from a Custode so you could class he was in something even better than Power Armour - i could be wrong though this is just from memory
a thought i had is i wonder how well the legions would fare fighting one another with their primarchs leading them. like if the Big G and Perturabo fought 1v1 yeah im kinda with you its a close 50/50 but what about them with their legion where Perturabo is a battle of attrition master and GuilliBob a master tactician how would that fight pan out? and im sure some of the other primarchs fighting with their legion would be a pretty metal debate
Fun fact; No two Primarchs have fought each other more times than Lion El'Jonson and Konrad Curze. 5 times did they try to kill each other in a straight fight.
Konrad won the first by getting past the Lions superior swordsmanship and nearly strangling him.
The Lion beat Curze so badly in the second duel, that Curze fell into a coma for several days.
The third was a draw, as Curze escaped into the underbelly of the Lions Flagship. They hunted each other for 3 weeks with no winner.
The fourth was on Macragge. Curze fought both The Lion and Guilliman, but it was a trap, so he could try and blow them both up.
The fifth and final one was decisive. The Lion hunted down Curze in the mountains of Macragge, outsmarted his bomb-trap and beat him in a straight clash before breaking his claws and back.
A hell of a game of tag lol
I read an old 4chan that said if Curze is Batman the Lion is Bane because he shattered Curzes spine in their last fight.
The lion is the bomb 💣 for the first 😎
What is it with primarchs and back breaking maneuvers?
@@GrumbleGrimbus works though
I feel like Guilleman is like the Obi Wan of the Warhammer universe - not the best at anything, but somehow would always find a way....
Lion*
Obi-wan was the master of defensive lightsaber combat, it’s why he was always coming out on top against aggressive duelists like Maul, Greivous, and Anakin, but would lose to a patient and lethal duelist like Count Dooku.
He wasn’t a generalist, he specialized in the direct counter to everyone else’s specialty.
Yeah, that way is called plot armor
@@11jerans Obi-Wan actually lost several fights to Grievous and Maul during the Clone Wars.
@@11jerans The adoption of Qui Gon's style when (finally, finally) killing off Maul says different!
An interesting thing you can deduce about Guilliman (from the Dark Imperium in particular), his thinking/strategy about faceing (most of) his brothers in combat is "I don't think I can beat you, but I'll hold my ground (for I am the only one between my current forces that can do that) and by the time you'd get the upper hand, you would have already lost the grander battle."
Excuse me endogenous with the first person narration.
These are daemon ones though if he can hold out against them what could he do to tgeir base line
One on one he wasn't a bad fighter, he was giving a powered up lorgar with some chaos strength a good go of it then he took angron and lorgar for a while, until angron went demon Prince. Having never fought anything like it before he didn't have anything to throw at angron or know what to do to defeat it.
@@A.DEN0 going from one fight to another and still putting up a strong fight is worth something
@@A.DEN0 disagree
@@A.DEN0 he was not beating the living shit out of g men, gmen was able to block his attacks but was severely getting pushed back by the ferocity of the assault, although angron would have died due to whatever the hell the butchers nails were doing, and so lorgar basically made angron a demon.
beating up lorgar isn't much of an achievement considering Corax was eviscerating him while exhausted and with only a single blade usable.
Angron didn’t ascend until after the fight. Lorgar wasn’t powered up yet.
So long as you know.
I think Colquan gives some pretty honest opinions about Gulliman’s fighting prowess throughout the dark imperium novels and especially in God Blight when G Man started slaughtering plague marines and Daemon engines before the custodians had even really reacted.
well he was dealing with some anger issue's
So he did what he should do? I would expect a Primarch to be able to slaughter plague marines and daemon engines, even before the Custodians do. He is supposed to be bigger faster and better than Custodies. I would expect this out of every single one of them.
@@Ronfost89 True
@@Ronfost89 to be fair, daemon engines are a hard fight in general.
One thing you have to remember is that you may get one over on Guilliman but you'll probably only get that trick to work that one time. Guilliman will learn
Correction regarding Lorgar v Corax:
Lorgar says he knows, because he's been told by the fateweaver that Corax is one that would possibly kill him if he faced him alone. So Lorgar has never gone to fight Corax with any plans to beat him. Both times they fought, Lorgar simply placed himself between his sons and his brother, so Corax would stop butchering them.
And Regarding Guilliman v Lorgar.
During the fight Lorgar was focused on Angron's ascension ritual. Not only that, but Lorgar saved Guilliman's life by completely stopping Angron's movement with a thought.
@@AlexanderForsman Wasn't there also prophecy or vision that if Lorgar would fight Guilliman on Calth he would kill him, but he would not succeed in creating ruinstorm?
@@jkgf4671 It went something like:
"If you go to calth, you will kill guilliman and get the respect of your brothers, but you will lose the war "
@@AlexanderForsman , yeah but he failed at both so clearly the " prophecy" was complete bullshit.
@@AlexanderForsman , lorgar started the ritual when Ingram showed up up to that point he was fighting Guilliman and one-on-one and losing. Even bolstered by chaos he was still losing.
In a straight up war against Guilliman, I can see the Bobby G coming out on top because he would use everything at his disposal and yes that means his Legion. Horus himself showed his fear of the Ultramarines by keeping them preoccupied instead of going to war with them.
Read unremembered empire, this isn't the case at all, he's to noble and is very much in the End doesn't justify the means. The reason he nearly comes to blows with the lion us because the lion does follow the ends justify the means
"The primarch is, of course, their greatest asset, Thiel realises. Not because of his physical superiority, though that is hard to overestimate. It is because he is a primarch. Because he is Roboute Guilliman. Because he is simply one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium. How many beings could measure favourably against him? Honestly? All seventeen of his brothers? Not all seventeen. Nothing like seventeen. Four or five at best. At best."
Perhaps we dont give him enough credit, even now.
I remember this quote. As awesome as it is I have to take it with a grain of salt. Thiel is biased in his father’s favor because he is his son. I think almost any Astartes from any legion would consider their Primarch to be one of the best fighters amongst their brothers. But who knows, even the weakest primarch is a god of war
@@wanabeguitarguy Although it is stated by one of his sons, I think the nature of the claim is actually very important. This line is written from the viewpoint of his son and even then he specifies that at about a fourth/third of the primarchs do have the upper hand. This implies knowledge of the other primarchs. A claim that Guilliman always has a reasonable(not guaranteed) chance of victory outside of the few who make him the underdog of the fight. giving cause to believe his actual heresy era self is quite an adversary.
((i think the current era guilliman fights were written unduly in that they demanded he have plot armor and were to show off other key players in the story.))
Guilliman ripped apart galvorbak (not sure of the spelling) marines when he boarded lorgar's ship.. He's hiding what he can really do at times.. I doubt we've seen everything he can do as a fighter.. The thing about that feat is that HE CHARGED HEADLONG WITHOUT ANY STRATEGY.. He led from the front, basically straight up channeled russ into his rampage..
Off the top of my head primarchs that would def beat him in a duel pre-heresy:
Leman
The lion
Hawk boy
Horus
Ferrus
Vulkan
Fulgrim
Conrad
Khan
Corax
Magnus (if using his powers)
The ones who would probably win:
Angron
Perty
Morty
Rogal
@@thecakewuzalie I totally buy that. I think Guilliman definitely has a chance at beating many of his brothers in a fight, I just don’t think he is among the better fighters personally. Not that he is a slouch in any way
Gulliman is a professional soldier. The others are warrior packs. He is a roman general leading legions versus mad dog armies. He is a realist on his abilities and this makes him more dangerous.
He knew he would lose against Fulgrim, but faced him.
Even the other loyalist legions are not as organised. He is a builder of empires. The others have kingdoms.
He fights strategic, the others are tactical.
He is Augustus the protector of civilisation. The others only see the martial side. He sees it all. Just as the Emperor does.
Only Horus had similar vision, but he was perverted by chaos.
I would say you can say the same about the White Scars and the Khan
I have nothing against the guy. It was the propaganda fellation by our Spiritual Liege Matt Ward that made me dislike Rowboat Girlyman and his Smurfs. Anything, the Oncoming Storm and Guilliman doing his best to keep the Imperium together have done much to restore him as a likeable character.
@@lockiet7227 You could. However the Khan was not impressed with the vision of the imperium. Technologies yes. Bureaucracy no. His vision would be freer movement,not industrial fiefdoms. The Khan's vision was loyalty to the people.
Gulliman had a sense of duty, people with purpose and well treated.
Both had a similar view from opposite poles. Protect your people, give them leadership and vision.
Similar to the comments about the Khan, you can also say the same about Dorn. Guilliman and Dorn are the two that had interplanetary/interstellar empires before they were found. Both of them know how to build and protect civilizations.
He fought fulgrim only to delay him, so he could win the battle. He didn’t count on fulgrim being a 10 meter daemon snake with 4 hands and 17 tits…
Vulkan as a combatant is the definitive example of, "I only have to hit you once, dexnerd."
Consider that Conrad tortured him day after day for and extended period, and once Conrad came to face Vulkan, who was unarmed and unarmored, Conrad got absolutely bodied even while wearing full power armor.
Curze killed him multiple times head on, check out the book Vulcan Lives
@@georgesoha4725 yeah, but crucially, he could never break Vulkan.
Still, curze did some nasty shit
bah 40K lore is mostly just fan service.
@@georgesoha4725 Vulkan literally told Curze he always suppressed his strength when fighting his brothers, particularly when it came to curze because he was the most fragile weakest of them all. He then grabbed curze like a child and beat the crap outta him without any armor.
@@Internetbutthurt Then why are you watching 40k lore videos?
It's in his ruleset, and hinted by the Ultramarines during the novels: If you don't kill them off they will come back for you stronger, as they learn from their mistakes. In Guilliman's stats this is represented with his weapon skill increasing by 1 every turn when engaged in a 1 on 1 duel. In short you have to finish him quickly, because if you don't in the long run he will beat you and not just in strategy. I think Wolf Lord Rho does Guilliman a bit of a disservice: Guilliman *does* beat Corax in a simulator one on one, and not just because corax is unarmored. Its just that it takes time for him to learn. Next time he meets Fulgrim he will probably beat him. He is though 1 on 1 initially very weak.
Yeah, he gives it to Corax 8 in 10 times. But that's just going to be their starting odds. Each and every fight they have, the odds will swing more and more in Guillimans favour.
Anyone who fights learns from their mistakes. I imagine Corax is no different.
@@MrSpartanspud Yeah. But no one seems to learn from it as well as Guilliman does.
Rho does seem to frequently give the Ultramarines a disservice, because it’s trendy to do so. Honestly, superior strategy aside, the Ultramarines are likely one of the better legions all around. Probably 5th or 6th
Okay but here’s the thing about Alpharius/Omegon. When we discuss primarchs battling, we don’t say “but Magnus can’t use his psychic powers” or “but Curze can’t use his powers to see the future”, so why do we not allow Alpharius and Omegon to use one of their greatest powers? They are one soul in two bodies, the only time when they are fighting at their true potential and true level, is when they are fighting together. If they aren’t fighting together, then it’s the same as another primarch fighting with one arm tied behind their back.
True and at the same time what does Guilliman do best. Lead an army. No one is going to out smart the twins when they work together and they would have been hard pressed in a fight if both were coming at you.
Except they really aren't shown fighting together and fighting isn't their thing, they try and win wars without firing a single round. that's the reason Alpharius or Omegon noped the fuck out when faced with Russ, everyone knows how that ends and thats not how they wage war.
@@FoxHound-ut1hu they are shown fighting together actually, and they say that they actually relished it for once because all the times fighting without the other always felt like one hand was tied behind their backs.
@@FoxHound-ut1hu in the Alpharius Primarch novel we see Alpharius definitively state that for his whole life if fighting alone he felt something was missing, and when Omrgon fought beside him he started that they clearly where meant to be one fighter
@@josephzark6232+
This makes me strangely sad. That the Twins so rarely got to feel whole in all their life and then one of them gets killed so it can never happen again...
Perturabo has an indomitable will. While trading blows, he would eat the pain while Guilliman drowns in it. And then there's his tech, disgusting firepower, and fearless melee prowess, various stims of all kinds, his enhanced augmented mind and sensors. He's a mixture of Prometheus and Heracles.
Beware those quiet types, they'll school you. He has prepared for every brother. Don't be surprised at Sanguinius losing his wing's effectiveness to his phosphex weapons.
Batman gave Superman a well planned beating and humbling once. That's Perturabo's style.
I don’t think rogal decapitated alpharius. He swung the chain sword strait into alpharius head not across the neck. More brutal IMO cus he’s completely obliterating his skull.
Dorn killed omegon not alpharius, they swapped places.
@@ryanshiver9044 that’s what they wanted you to think but really it was alpharius
Alpharius or Omegon... No guarantee Dorn even killed a Primarch. Even when they give us various "evidence" to back it up. There are no certainties with the Alpha Legion except that there are no certainties.
@@davidring681 I am alpharius.
A clean death.
Guilliman always gave me the idea that he had something hiding away that we haven’t seen yet. Time after time Guilliman seems to spark with potential, both psychically and in strength, before it flutters out as quickly as it appears. There’s something hiding in the primarch. Does he have the skill to use that potential? That’s yet to he fully seen.
Mine you out of all the primarchs guilliman and horus are the only ones we don't know what their secret powers are. Everyone either been hinted at or flat out shown, but not guilliman, his power still hidden.
@@Fourtytwo4242 I thought that it was pretty well established that Horus has "charisma" and Roboute has "logistics" as their respective superpowers? It may not be as flashy as Corax turning invisible but both are absolutely OP in anything bigger than a 1v1.
Same could be said for Leman, correct?
@@wanderhillen2435 I get what you mean but Sanguinius was also incredibly charismatic to the point of being on par with Horus but he was also a flying angel man with op powers. Dorn and Perty were also pretty great at logistics but Dorn is a primarch level blank and Perty could understand completely any machine he looked at and had a special connection to the eye of terror.
So while Guilliman and Horus may be the definitive best at logistics and charisma there are other primarchs who are at least comparable in those fields but also have some super special powers.
@@mcnuggets2825 bingo, yeah they are masters but really that more so how they were raised and trained, Guilliman is the man he is because of his parents, not because of his powers. He is still be question mark, he could have anything.
Ferrus lost to a warp enhanced Fulgrim wielding a daemon sword. I agree he gets to much shade.
Wolf Lord Rho you make the best 40k youtube videos of all.
Bobby G is my favorite Primarch. And I'm not a bandwagon fan either. He's been my favorite since I started in 2000ish. Not Brawler, not a psyker (mostly), not a super tech savant. He's General in every sense of the word.
Hahahahahaha Bobby G. This is my new favorite thing.
Gulliman to me is the absolute definition of the middle child.
In most family dynamics the older brother is considered the mature one and serves as the role model to the other siblings the. Youngest brother ranges from a work in progress to the absolute problem child that gets the attention but no one really wants to deal with. Then finally you have the middle child he’s often overlooked doesn’t didn’t that many quirks lacks in the attention depart from both his other siblings and parents other than making sure he’s in the strait and narrow and for the most part is left alone to do his own thing.
To me that just screens Rebute gulliman. Apart of what made Rebutes new character arc in 40k so interesting is that he is filling in a role he really isn’t used to.
Back during the crusade and Hersey the limelight always always in Horus Sanguinius and the other first found primarchs while Gulliman was always to the side no that both of them are dead and the rest of his loyalist brothers are yet to return Gulliman must now must take on the mantel as only living loyal Primarch.
I hate Gulliman in the heresy but in 40k he has definitely grown on me .Even though he’s a Primarch far beyond baseline human and space marine I can almost sense from the audiobook the weight on his shoulders and the seeming loneliness he’s going through. He has confidants but without his father or brothers to talk to he has no true equals.
That is why it is essential that The Lion must return. Rebute needs a rock to rely on and though the lion is well known for his indomitable will and less than perfect social skills listening to the unremembered empire series it seems the only Primarch Lion el Johnson was ever able to somewhat open up to or at least have a frank conversation with is Gulliman. Some on the community think that when the lion wakes up the imperium could split between the two brothers one cool and calculated trying to get a grip on this new dark era while the other is vengeful wishing to make up for lost time and enact vengeance. This could be true but going back to the un remembered empire it would appear Gulliman and the Lion did reach a understanding but perhaps this wouldn’t change or it would be torn up after El Johnson learned what Gulliman did to the imperium and to his legion after the heresy.
Why do u guys think?
I agree, the Lion is one of only 2 G man looked up too, the other being Horus. Also after UE and Ruinstorm they become much closer so the Lion coming back, being possibly the top general of the primarchs, would give G man the ability to focus on fixing the broken government of the Imperium while the Lion would focus on murderdestroying Xenos and traitors
I mostly just think it's spelled "Roboute". Otherwise I agree it would be pretty awesome if the Lion would be the next loyalist primarch to return.
@@bobakrabii6220 I thought he respected Sanguinius as well? Though maybe in a different way to Horus and The Lion.
I think it’s impressive that you managed to misspell his first and last name the same way throughout that entire wall of text.
While I agree the Lion needs to return for Guilliman’s sake, I think the Lion is closer to Russ by far. Recall the scene on Terra after the Heresy ended, and Lion stabbed Russ through the chest with his sword, eliminating the bad blood between them, ironically.
Lion’s history with Guilliman is far more nuanced, though not really dislike. Lion actually went to Macragge with the idea that he was going to find Guilliman and the Ultramarines flirting with treachery. Lion even intended to raze Macragge until Sanguinius showed up and talked down the situation.
That’s precisely why the Lion has to be the one returning. He suspected Guilliman during the GC of wanting to split off Ultramar as his own empire. And now that Guilliman is in the arguably best position to make this a reality, he is being tested in his loyalty. The Lion would be not just a great help to Guilliman, but to serve as a reminder to keep Guilliman on the straight and narrow.
In comparisons with his greatest strenght then as a statsman then none will be his equal. When it comes to battefield adaption he is on my seccond place just after Perturabo. And unless killed could beat any of his brothers in the long term in a war. As a closecombat fighter i still see him as medicore at best.
I agree, trying to suss out if he would beat brother X or brother Y in a fight is missing the point. It's like a boxer claiming he could take the epic level wizard in a fistfight. Of course he can, but the wizard would turn him into a frog before the match ever started. Guilliman wins the war before a single battle is ever fought, through superior training and logistics.
@@wanderhillen2435 Except against the Lion, who is every bit his superior when it comes to tactics and warfighting, and one of the few Guilliman looks up to. The First would likely rout the Ultrasmurfs in campaign.
You got some facts wrong... Russ didn't equate beating Guilliman to snapping his fingers. He was describing all the most likely rivals to him personally and notable opponents. He only mentioned Lorgar as being beaten by snapping his fingers.
Also, Angron in Betrayer is described as being "in little better shape" than Guilliman. Guilliman takes on both Lorgar and Angron in that battle and still holds his own.
Lastly, Curze vs Lion and Guilliman is governed purely by Curze's prescience. Without it he's an average tier Primarch who gets soundly beaten every time.
When facing off against by Guilliman and the Lion, the Lion is badly wounded and Guilliman gets several unanswered wounds against Curze.
Ultimately, Guilliman is considered in the top 5-7. It is remarked by the narrator in Know no Fear that Guilliman is only matched at best by 5 of his brothers.
Guilliman never backs down from any of them and the watch pack themselves remark on his prowess.
Man this is such a great depiction of the Primarchs. Whoever did the art did an awesome job.
I think Perturabo would win. He's the only primarch with the practical sense to cover himself in ballistic weapons, in addition to having a cool melee weapon.
Read/listen Angel Exterminatus, Perturabo ANNIHILATED Fulgrim with his bare hands. An amazing book.
@@tsvetanpanov191 Also kicks the shit out of Angron in Slaves to Darkness.
@@TheAtomicSpoon ye, ye, ye man I know, Rho even mentioned it but he was a bit dismissive, instead of give Perturabo the credit he OWNS like a fkn boss! ;D
@@TheAtomicSpoon you have to remember the books are almost pure fan service, however if Angron has a soft spot for any of his brothers its Perturabo given, despite the 'lore' that came later re World Eaters and Word Bearers, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were the original battle brothers combo
@@TheAtomicSpoon+
He defeats Angron with a lot of help and some very heavy context. He freely admits himself he wouldn't stand a chance in a "fair" 1v1 battle.
Why are you counting a chaos boosted filgrim beating a ferris that just went through a huge traumatic event if you aren’t gonna count Horus beating sanguinius.
Aside from Lorgar back in the day I only see a few that would be possible. Coin toss on those. Prolonged military large scale type stuff I nearly always give to him. He brings the right stuff there.
Lore from the new book, omegon died to dorn, not alpharius. Also, guliman almost certainly just killed an empowered legionarie.
That's what I said
Alpharius lives!
what can i say, he is the student of malcador, the all head of the inquisition
We really need to see more of Horus pre-heresy. The Horus trilogy was really nice but it was all the way back at the beginning of the series.
Guilliman is just like Batman in DC. Like, how does Batman beat Superman? The answer is, give him enough prep time to study and deconstruct the fighting style of his opponent. I saw someone comment on the video about who could beat Angron about how Guilliman would do it, and he was absolutely right. He said, Angron probably can't exist in the materium for long, and there are probably a bunch of cultists somewhere channeling some ritual to bind his presence. Guilliman would figure this out and send some assault terminators to slaughter the cultists, and he just needs to stall Angron long enough by taunting him and evading him, while his plan unfolds behind the scenes. That's the true power of being the greatest strategic mind.
A 40 minute Rho Video what a great day
I think he has potential to become greater. He always looked up to the Lion, as both a warrior and leader.
He wanted his Legion to have the co-ordination and order of the 1st Legion.
If he returned Jonson could play the part of stern but occassionally affectionate older brother. Encouraging Guillimans battle ability and tactical capability. I believe the Lion could improve his diplomacy and statesmanship,yet would choose not to!
This of course rests on Guilliman not trying to order El Jonson to abide by the codex astartes,and placing all the resources of the Imperium available for Jonson to refit and return his legion to their former glory.
Guilliman low-key abolished the Codex Astartes seeing it as outdated
Would love to see a video like this for all of the Primarchs. That aside, I really appreciate the fact that with Ferrus, the end result was:
"I feel like Ferrus would win, however, from what we've actually seen, we have to objectively go with Robute."
Being able to put aside personal biases in favour of what is actually shown is a hard thing to do and I appreciate seeing it here. That said, I still disagree as even just the statements of his other bothers seem to be more than enough to indicate that Ferrus would have been able to slap Guilliman for the most part.
I frankly would have put Guilliman as having lost to Perturabo myself - and I'd have used his fight vs Angron to justify it. Not because he beat Angron head to head (he didn't) but because he was able to weather Angron's assault long enough for the Red Angel to weaken before putting him down. I honestly don't think Robute could put out that much damage in that short a space of time by comparison and as a result, I think Perturabo would be able to outlast Guilliman in the end. Just my 2 cents anyhow as I largely agree with the rest.
Middle of pack….but he definitely has intangibles that make him a great warrior. His love for macragge , his love for Konor and Eurten . If Guilliman is your champion in a trial by combat scenario you are in great hands.
I think you are right. Also in 40k I think he is stronger than ever....He feels like he is the imperiums only hope. When everyone is counting on you people tend to hit a little hard and last a bit longer than they should.
I do wonder if any of the brothers could actual take the twins as a pair in combat.
I think realistically you could only consider the top tier combatant primarchs in that scenario: The Lion, Russ, Fulgrim, Sanguinius, Horus, Jaghatai, and Curze, with an honourable mention to Magnus due to the deus ex machina nature of psyker powers. Even then, two against one would be a stretch (nigh on impossible) for any of them
@@Erika_Redmark Dorn isn't top Tier and did a number on one of the brothers. I think Russ, Sanguinius, Corax (who you missed) out of the loyalists would shred the brothers. Of the non-loyalists, Fulgrim, fully-powered Angron, and Mortarion would all beat the brothers. If we're talking about a fully-powered horus / his twin Abaddon - think that would be an easy win as well.
Yeah in the beginning of the duel Fulgrim was trying to talk to Dorn but after Dorn drew first blood. Fulgrim really tried to kill him. Each strike was described as a killing blow but Dorn managed to keep his guard while suffering a few wounds. Not to mention Dorn ran Fulgrim through, it was only because Fulgrim was demon empowered that he didn’t die. Also Fulgrim left because Dorn made him realize how terribly the Emperors Children Assault played out and Fulgrim declared he had enough of the whole civil war bs and left to commit atrocities. (After that there is an awesome scene where Sigismund and Dorn fight back to back against 50 Emporers Children elite). I do think that Dorn and Guilliman would have a pretty evenly matched duel however in my personal opinion I think Dorn is the better duelist. I wouldn’t be surprised if the writer of a Dorn vs Guilliman duel had Gman win because of the current state of the lore though. However maybe Dorn won the duel and because of that Gman forced him to accept the codex or declare him a traitor. However it goes, I hope they don’t do disservice to Dorn. All I know is that we need more 30k era primarch duels.
I don't feel like I'm well versed in the lore to actually say this one is better than that one. That being said...
Guilliman is "from" Ultramar and was taught their style of fighting (not saying he didn't already know how to fight, because the Emperor "preprogrammed" all of the primarchs) which is based off of the Roman military (I think). If that is so the individual is not meant to be the "big bad @$$" as in other military units, say like the Space Wolves which are based off of Vikings (and they prized individual fighting/accomplishments). So Guilliman wouldn't necessarily be a great individual fighter, nor do I think it would bother him so much. I think it would bother him more if you said he wasn't a team player, or that he couldn't see another way to fight a battle. In my opinion (not that it really matters, for many reasons) leaders must be good fighters, and even better strategists/tacticians. So he's probably middle of the road as an individual fighter/swordsman/marksman.
Fair points.. But remember that a roman formation while emphasizing team work, it also requires each individual to be strong fighters in order to fully fight effectively with their fellow soldiers.. So I'd think that guilliman would be at least a little concerned if he didn't measure up to his brothers in terms of fighting prowess..
@@lavatun , only if he was fighting in formation with them. His doctrine of war would never include that cuz the idea of having to fight side by side with one of his brothers in formation is ludicrous you've clearly done something wrong if that were to occur.
in the case of magnus lets be honest, magnust SHOULD win, but there would undoubtedly be some bullshit that prevented him from using his psykick powers, i mean i remember that scene were malcador froze horus in place with his powers alone and horus could do nothing, but then magnus, perhaps an even stronger psyker and ofcourse much bigger faster and stronget etc couldnt do anything similar with russ? russ could just run up to him and do some stupid WWE combos? yeah thats some hardcore plot armor right there
Wait isn't russ in some way more immune to psychic powers? He's also kinda immune to chaos, no?
You should read the Burning of Prospero again... Russes howl literaly kills weak psykers.
Magnus has telekinetic powers strong enough to lift people into orbit, unless that somehow doesn't work on brother primarchs he should be able to do that to anyone dumb enough to face him in anything resembling melee. The only way to kill someone like that is through ambush (good luck against a future-seeing mind reader), from sufficient distance with exterminatus or if you are some sort of uber-level blank. Maybe Russ has bullshit hax with his howl but it seems more like plot armor than anything else. A primarch tier warrior is just not as powerful as a primarch tier wizard.
Russ was built to kill his brothers if that was needed, i think he is uniquely able to resist Magnus's schtick.
During the Siege of Terra, Magnus psychically lifted a Capitol Imperialis tank explicitly stated to weigh 67,000 tonnes, and threw it like a football (while also freezing it in time so it wouldn't explode until it hit the wall).
I don't care how much "resistance" Russ has to psychic powers, Magnus should have crushed him like a beer can.
Not quite sure if the Lord of Iron fight would be that close. I would honestly put Pert and Dorn in the same category in combat. And I think Dorn would clean house with Guil.
Dorn bodies most of his brothers in a straight fight. He’s got that khabib “I’m not fucking around” vibe
@@proudsaiyanprince2651 agreed. Outside of Sang, Lion and Horus those brothers could best him… than there's Jag, Pert, Fulgrim, Rus and I will include Kurze who would be around the same level as Dorn. I'm not including Vulcan or Magnus for obvious reasons.
I want to see Guilliman beat Loghar into submission with a copy of Loghar's own book.
I will say one thing if Guilliman embraces his inner warp powers and the faith and worship of the imperium he will probably be on the level of Horus in his chaos champion form
I want Super Saiyan Guilliman too lmao
True, look what the emperor has done with a sister of battle. Now imagine that us Primarch warp fuckery
@@Ashtor1337 What did he do?
@@aniketbiswas7660+
Turned her into a Living Saint (read: Daemon Prince/ss of the Emperor).
you gotta give Bobby G some props though, he got in the ring with some of those who he knew would probably end him; Angron, Fulgrim, Lion, etc. I think if he had time to prepare, like with Perturabo and Angron, things could be quite different.
"That's a dumb question. We were built for different battles."
- Mortarion
No way Bobby g beats Magnus even in a straight fight, Magnus up took on russ in a very close fight would of killed him before his wolves intervened, he battered vulkan for most of there fight and not forgetting he was trying to kill the emporer at the same time
Magnus was not at his Full strength. Who was the Emperor without his Psychic might? Magnus is a top tier Primarch unhindered. He's is sharded now as a Daemon Primarch. Roboute now carries the Emperor's presence with him.
In terms of a duel (1 on 1) I don't think Guilliman is highly ranked, his more of a strategist, I can't honestly put him above any of his brothers in fighting style or strength!
Cut his life support and tell that stupid smurf village to f@#k right off!
Guilliman can hold his own. He fought Lorgar and Angron, he stabbed Curze when the Lion was having issues with him (and it hurt)
@@standarddeviation7963 he's better than lorgar you can end the sentence there
@@standarddeviation7963 He is still a Primarch and a Son of The Emperor is no slouch but when it comes to fighting his brothers he would be hesitant and most of the others have either a unique fighting styles or strength on their side!
@@Duppyman695 that's 30k smurf.
He is holding back his true potential. Also we dont have a lot of examples of him facing many of his brothers One on One before they became daemons. Only one I remember is Curze and that was an ambush more than a fair fight.
What about Fulgrim or Mortarian? Angron too
All deamon powered or he had already fought another primarch.
As a loyal son if the First, I'd like to see how the Lion would fare against his brethren. Good video!
The lion would win against everyone. Itd be close with Sanguinius but the lion would win.
The lord of iron got sold short, not only did he:
*beat D.Angron,
*fight D.Mortareon for 7 hours
*surviving Fulgrim's ascension and exploding his body with 1 blow of forge breaker
*cunning enough to decimate Dawn leading the Imperial Fists
*trusted enough by Horus to not only slap Angron into compliance by lead the siege on Terra
In a battle of legions they are similar but Perty is willing to cross many more lines, with his cold calculating methods in a 1 vs 1 he would know Guliman's weakness and be willing to go further to achieve victory - I would compare him to Batman in the justice league - he is your ally but knows your weakness, has said method prepared at all times and would not hesitate to employ said method, if it was a loosing battle he would have a method to leave and come back when there is a better chance - I would support this by his inability to trust people - how things played out in his Homeworld then further deepening the wound when he trusted Fulgrim(food for assentation)/Horus(used)/Magnus(gave into desire).
And he messed up an armoured Fulgrim face with his toy warhound and choked him on the wall like a punk. In his tunic, pure muscle and fierce will, like Ferrus.
While it's nice to see how the Primarchs compare in single combat, that's not what they were created for. They were created to be generals who could run campaigns spanning multiple star systems. I'd love to see you rank them based on that metric.
I think there's no need , the list goes (in universe ofc)
1- Horus
2- Dorn
3- Guilliman
Even Horus admitted that Guilliman might be better than him in the art of war , but in terms of victories only Dorn comes close to him.
@@горяаялиниямаиами even there i think you cant count out the angle that easy. Hes a figure that would spawn unlimited soldiers with kriegmans moral just because they know they are fighting for him. My ranking there would be
1. Horus
2. Sanguinius
3. Guilliman
4. Dorn
Even Horus said that Sanguinius would be the better Warmaster so he has to be atleast 2de on that list. With 1 and 2, 3 and 4 be very close and a gap between 2 and 3.
Perturabo needs a mention here if we're counting Dorn as well. They are practically 2 sides of the same coin. Having said that, Guilliman would be pretty much top tier as a strategist in complete co yeast to his position as a raw fighter).
@@горяаялиниямаиами You're forgetting the greatest general of all the Primarchs: Lion El'Jonson. He amassed victories more quickly than the Lunar Wolves, had better imperial compliance than the lunar wolves, and likely would have been Warmaster if it was simply a measure of strategic ability. The only reason The First fell out of the lead in campaigns, and The Lion out of favor for warmaster, is because they were dispatched to face enemies no other Legion was capable of defeating, the Rangdan, and got mauled considerably for their complete victory. Alpharius appeared before The Lion and pleaded with him to let the Alpha Legion carry on the war against the Rangdan and spare his legion to ensure he became Warmaster over Horus.
1. Roboute Guilliman
2. Rowboat Gorillaman
3. Girlyman
4. Papa Smurf
5. Horus/Lion
6. Dorn/Perturabo
7. most other primarchs
8. Lorgar
50. Angron
This isn't even a contest. Dude conquered 500 worlds without the unlimited ressources of the Imperium behind him or gene-enhanced, loyal to death sons/space marines around. Or even generally favourable equipment as the warmaster position and/or a secret arsenal of doomsday weapons would grant.
Russ, Lion, and Sanguinius are out of his league in any day of the year! Rest he could take on given enough time and attempts!
On one vs one you say or in War ?
@@victorb300 pretty sure he means 1 v 1
@@victorb300 strategy and discipline is cool and all until them red boys start calling you Horus.
I don't see Guilliman EVER being able to beat Curze or Corax. I also don't see him being able to win against Fulgrim, unless Fulgrim would not even care to try to fight him, like he did with Dorn.
@@jkgf4671 correct me if I'm wrong but didn't russ beat horus in a one on one and then hesitated to kill him wouldn't that mean he could beat guliman as well or was horus not fully powered up then
I will be very interested to see if the worship of Guilliman from the citizens begins to have a noticeable affect on his power.
Jesus parallel
The real problem I have with ranking Alpharius is that we don't know what happened to him when Omegon was killed. Was his soul reunited and he returned to full power, or was he like forever missing his other half? Or did he have some ritual cast to return his soul to him? Tough to say.
Also, the idea that Guilliman killed Alpharius is super suspect. Besides it would just be boring, why kill Alpharius when he could be a returning character who is more interesting.
Guilliman killed an imposter. He said it was too easy. Dorn may have killed Omegon's agent and not Omegon.
As much as it would be fun to see Guilliman taking to the field again with Gauntlets of Ultramar it is unlikely seeing as Marneus Calgar grew pretty acustomed to this old relic.
I would like to learn more about this artifacts. 2ed codex gave us very little lore on them but it sounds pretty intriguing. The very fact they fit standard sized marine, but can also fit a primarch is quite suprising.
Size scaling in 40k is definitely weird.
The gauntlets of ultramar's inner mechanisms shift around to fit the hands of the wielder I think.. Kinda like the infinity gauntlet that tony stark made when the hulk puts it on.. It was the size of a normal human hand at first but then resized itself to be able to fit on hulk's hand..
I love the idea of Roboute just boxing the shit out of Lorgar, on his toes jab to hook, shovel hooks, overhand rights fron feints. Beautiful
One point about Corax vs Guilliman in that training simulation. If I remember correctly, after the fact Roboute said something like: "But you are getting more used to the simulation." Remember, this is not a real physical combat, it was more akin to game, which you need to be used to controlling. They was actually sitting on the couch the whole time. Guilliman of course had way more experience with this particular simulation technology, so it was basically like Elden ring veteran who plays it since release vs dude who just picked it up a week ago. First one is going to win, even if the second one is heavyweight MMA champion.
Now, do not get the wrong idea, I am not trying to diminish Guilliman here. Beiing a bit weaker combatant than Corvus is still pretty good.
I don't know to be honest how high up the rank list guilliman would come he would do pretty well I think because he is a strategist it's the reason I collect the ultra marines I myself really love strategy games and guilliman is a empire builder he has good strategies when it comes to war. What would be a good rank list similar to this video would be rather than a one on one fight between primarchs a rank list for were the ultra marines legion would come fighting a one on one battle against one of his brothers legions. So based at a time where all the legions are at their peak in strength and power so I would assume 30k before half the legions turned to chaos would be a good way to balance it.
I would like to think that guilliman would be at least half way up the rank list on a one and one fight with one of his brothers
If both Vulcan and Angron would beat Gman then Ferrus would smoke him. As you say, some styles are super effective against others and I think Ferrus was hard done by to be shown only against a daemonic Fulgrim, easily one of the best duelists even before the chaos boost. Ferrus' early life and the respect from his brothers is miles ahead of what Gman ever gets.
No, Fulgrim thought he was one of the best. Much like his son's time and time again he has had to cheat to win. It's true he was definitely in the top 20 in the Galaxy in dueling, vs another primarch fighting a war is another story.
"The Lion failing to see the humor" is a nice euphemism for "The Lion knocking Russ out cold after first disarming him and getting suckerpunched for not wanting to kill him". 🙃
I love how your reticle screen throws that inverted Y onto some of the Primarch portraits.
Even though he died early ferrus has always been up on my list very high. Second only to the lion in leadership and combat power
To be fair both fights against fulgrim were stacked against him. The first time it was a sucker punch and the second time fulgrim was enhanced by chaos. So I don’t think using those fights is fair to ferrus
Guilliman couldn't beat Ferrus. It was Fulgrim's style that beat him, not mere swordsmanship.
to quote Magnus of the TTS series:
"i punched one of his hearts out why does no one remember that!?"
talking about Magnus's battle against Russ
With Alpharius, my personal headcanon is that it was Omegon on Pluto and that Alpharius is still out there. Especially since, the Alpha Legion's inner circle during the Heresy and Scouring were the original Astartes that got modified to look like their Primarch. Alpharius was working against the traitors from within, and now his sons are caught in a civil war to weed out the truly loyal to those who have fallen to Chaos. Think about it, Omegon was found behind the lines of the Rangdan Xenocides and then you meet a collation (the cabal) of unlikely aliens, what is to say that Omegon wasn't compromised by the Rangdan Psykers?
I will be fair with Corax, in that he isn't a mind reader. By that point in the Heresy, very few if anyone was aware of Konrad's visions. Remember that Dorn learned it from Fulgrim, which he didn't believe and its doubtful Dorn thought it as pertinent information to pass along. With his Wraithslip, Corax would have had an advantage against Curze and he's right for thinking it, but Konrad's visions are something out of context that Corax has no awareness or defence against. Konrad is a vicious and brutal fighter, the Lion comparing him to a wild animal he'd hunt, and he was considered such even before his visions returned just before the Heresy.
I feel like Lorgar just defeats himself, and hey... if it was Guilliman who ended up on Colchis instead of Guilliman, perhaps they'd be swapped. Combat ability aside, a feel that Lorgar and Guilliman were designed with similar strength levels in mind. They are essentially foil to each other; the learned administrator and the well-spoken philosopher, application of the physical and deliberation of the metaphysical.
Ah, the Lion. Its funny that when Leman is in that scene talking with Malcador about the Primarchs, he doesn't mention the Lion ONCE. Name's taboo, speak it and he'll appear. Its a similar thing that I think Guilliman is doing in the current timeline, mentioning every other Primarch and begging to all the Gods that ever existed that they come back before the Lion otherwise he's gonna get a spanking off big brother *_again_* Lol! But yeah, the Wolf King is proud but we can dig into the reason he doesn't mention or acknowledge the Lion at all is a niggling bit of guilt in the back of his mind, because Leman clearly knows things and yet he doesn't know how he caused this bad blood with the Lion, a brother who is the most like him and he can generally get on with. He didn't know how he did it and would never admit to it therefore, but it niggles there at the back of his mind. And that contributes to why after the Heresy, in their rematch he just stands there with arms wide and welcomes the furious/grieving Lion's blade through his primary heart. To wash away bad blood, in a waterfall from one's heart, true beauty.
One thing to keep in mind of Jagatai vs mortarion. In that fight Jagatai can sense and see that mortarion is infused with an unnatural power. mortarion was clearly already receiving power from chaos. I do think Jagatai would have won that fight regardless so not a good way to judge a fight between Guilliman and mortarion
Alpharius wasn't killed by rogal dorn, It was omegon who changed his name to alpharius that was killed, Omegon who was alpharius, devestated by this changed his name to alpharius to honor alpharius who was omegon.
Omegon-Alpharius-Dead
Alpharius-Omegon-Alpharius-Alive
Omegon was the OG Alpharius raised by the Emperor, reading between the lines of his Novel.
And yeah, Alpharius died vs Dorn. Omegon, now Alpharius forever more and the first Alpharius until Omegon or the Alpharius of the Great Crusade that was presented to his Legion, felt him die.
Love your stuff. Noticed you’ve mentioned Alpharius being dead a few times and I’d really suggest reading the novella, The Serpent Beneath, if you haven’t already. In that book it details a process where one of the XXth primarchs transfers their consciousness and personality to a Captain of the legion. In that case it was Cpt Sheed Ranko. Spoilers but Ranko dies in that and there are very much still two primarchs after. Now, fast forward to the engagement in the Battle of Pluto and Alpharius vs Dorn. It was just the same thing afaik. Once again, a Primarch transfers their essence to a Legionnaire and dies. But oddly, this time it’s supposed to mean the actual death of the Primarch? It’s just something I keep thinking of in the lore and would love your take sometime with the destruction of Tenebrae Station/The Serpent Beneath in mind to consider the Battle of Pluto against.
How could Alpharius lose to Dorn and Roboute if he’s still alive?
Well because they are all Alpharius lol
Are you saying you're alpharius?..
Lol absolutely not, if I'm a "fanboy" (or girl in my case) of anyone it's the Khan. With Russ being a close second.
Alpharius and Omegon are alive
I feel it too. Dorn killed an imposter. So did Guilliman.
I think the more matches you put him up against a brother the more likely he is to win. Out of all, he is the most dangerous over time as he will learn how to defeat anyone.
Even Russ or others. if he fought Russ a 100 times, and Russ didn't murder him by then, Guilliman would be become extremely dangerous to Russ and even surpass him. But only him. that doesn't necessarily translate to fighting anyone else. The process starts all over again.
That is why he is so good at running an empire. He starts with a solid foundation and logistics. This gives him the buffer to learn and then dominate an enemy over time.
I don't think he "forgets" valuable combat skills like that. Same tactics that work vs Russ might not be all aplicable vs the Lion, but if he learn to fight on par with Russ he will be able to best most opponents.
@@maciekwilkosz6377 Hence why I said "necessarily". Experience is experience after all.
Why is the audio slowed down on these videos? I have watched videos from this channel where the audio was faster.
21:39 irresistible force? I knew you liked the Khan but not that much
I just can't agree that Perturabo might lose to Guilliman. In his duel with Angron he took a tremendous amount of beating and was willingly holding himself back as to NOT kill Angron. I'd say at least in 8 out of 10 duels Perturabo will be the winner.
As to the duel with Ferrus Manus - maybe i'm a bit biased, i really like Manus, but i kind of agree with you to a certain extent. His track record is not really good and Guilliman could be a more skilled swordsman. But... the Gorgon comes from a warrior/survivalist culture and i think he actually is more skilled warrior/brawler, and on top of that i think he was described as the physically strongest primarch, stronger than even Vulkan (please correct me if i'm wrong). So i think that one's closer to a draw actually.
Vulkan is hands down the strongest physically.. Ferrus is a very close second.. Don't forget that vulkan once tossed a tank (a baneblade if I'm not mistaken)
And sheer amout of firepower Perty brings to the fight would also matter
Because he doesn't need to get close to best his brother he just needs to see him
@@skaut_games7644 exactly everyone's forgetting what everyone's strong points are one-on-one duels or one thing but I do believe it was Gilliman who said he would never call out Perterabo because Perterabo would just Nuke him.
Ranking them is stupid as fuck almost all primarch fights end with stupid errors or intervetions for the plot and not all primarchs have fight enought of their brothers
@@Ashtor1337 Gulliman challeneges Perty to the duel.
Perty loads his Davy Crockett gun.
Gulliman: What do you have there brother ?
Perty: A smoothie
5:28 I am new to 40k. Did the Primarchs know that Alpharius had a twin brother? Or was it a secret that only the emperor and alpharius knew
It’s a secret, although it is implied that Leman Russ at least suspects something akin to another primarch existing. The short version is that they are discussing the roles of the primarchs and Russ asks what Alpharius’ role is. When Alpharius replies that his role is to keep the emperors secrets, Russ (very pointedly) retorts that if that’s Alpharius’ role then he’s surprised that there’s only one of him. As with most things 40k, it’s intentionally not explained, so it’s left up to your own imagination to decide wether Russ already knows, simply suspects, or is just musing.
If you search “An interesting conversation between Alpharius & Russ” the top result has the extract which you can read for yourself. Welcome to 40k!
@@Erika_Redmark thank you will check it out
Do u think one of the lost Primearchs is the leader of the grey knights and stronger then the other Primearchs idk would bee interesting or is it confirmed those two will never be found or are dead
What if Guilliman is allowed to bring his PET BEAR?!
Honestly Guilliman has the super administration/organization super power which just translates into him being awesome at logistics. As General Omar Bradley famously said: “Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics.” Its what makes the Imperium with Guilliman leading super dangerous. Its what makes Guilliman the most dangerous of his brothers, not how fast he can swing the sword.
I would bet that Guilliman’s prowess just hasn’t been seen because he’s the least ragey and savage of the rage gods. I would bet people assume others over him because they get battlelust and put themselves in unnecessary situations that lead to big feats more often
I even tried to google image Robute Guilliman double power gloves....nothing lol.
I think this like asking a pro-level chess player who works out to fight a bodybuilder/MMA fighter depending on the brother.
Guilleman just isn't a fighter. He is still a primarch, but his skill comes from wielding his army and economy.
Logistics-wise, the ONLY primarch coming within a county mile is Perturabo.
Dorn litteraly 3 v 6 at terra give the man some credit.
@@commissarlugh1040 fuck Dorn and his stubborn legions
@@commissarlugh1040 dorn had the advantage of fixed defensive position which are a force multiplier and pertarabo still broke through while commanding a bunch of insane nutjobs.
I thought you would’ve done this type of video ages ago for Leman Russ. After Russ talked about it in wolves bane I thought for sure you would rank the brothers against Russ
Guilliman is like right in the middle in every regard except for his strategic mind
My issue with your Alpharius part of the video is that, we are really unsure if the twin that died was Alpharius or Omegon.
Alpharius found Omegon with his spear, Russ faced the ttwin who was carrying a sword. Dorn faced the one wielding a spear.
Plus, trying to convince Dorn into surrender is a futile attempt. Alpharius was there when they first found Dorn. He had spies in fists before they even found their primarch. He knows Dorn. Omegon, not so much. Its a stupid impulsive act which someone educated by malcador wouldent do.
Vulkan: I love it when you call me Big Poppa
Now compare Guilliman as being the general at the head of his legion and running a campaign against his brothers.
I agree!
Wrong question. Fighting has never been a forte of Roboute Guilliman.
The question should be who could beat Roboute Guilliman in a war.
Maybe Horus, maybe the Lion. That's it really.
Only the Lion & Perturabo.
@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 I am not sold on Horus' abilities as a strategist or a tactician.
As far as the Lion, he's a great tactician, but I think Roboute is a superior strategist. The Lion would win the battles, but Roboute would win the war.
My personal ranking combat-wise for the Primarchs is:
1. Sanguinius
2. The Lion
3. Conrad Curze
4. Leman Russ
5. The Khan/Horus
6. Vulkan
7. Angron
8. Perturabo
9. Fulgrim/Corax
10.Ferrus
11. Rogal Dorn/ Roboute Guilliman
12. Mortarion
13. Magnus
14. Alpharius/Omegon
15. Lorgar
The lion is way to high on that list as is Curze. Logar, yes he's a bitch, would still stomp the floor with the twins. The twins were smaller and weaker then Thier brother. It's stated by one of them in the horse heresy novels when they stand before Horace and realize how much smaller they are.
@@Ashtor1337 I disagree. Lorgar has repeatedly shown himself to be the weakest and least combat effective of all the Primarchs. Alpharius at the very least matched Dorn at th beginning of their battle. Compared to Lorgar, who has been handling defeated/beaten down by many of the Primarchs. As for Curze and the Lion, I truly believe they are the best combatants under our loveable angel boy. The Lion has been called and shown to be one of the most skilled swordsmen in 40k. Managing to outmanuveur and ultimately best Konrad's future sight. Only the Khan rivals the Lion in the Combat speed. For Curze, my reasoning here is he has been shown to not only be one of the most ferocious fighters amoung his brothers, with both Roboute and Sanguinius speaking of the danger he poses in close combat. His future sight gives him an enormous advantage in combat. Now, yes he has been defeated by both the Lion and Vulkan, but the former is as previously stated a freaking sword saint and the latter caught him by surprise and Konrad was nearly completely broken mentally at this point.
I believe it essentially comes down to this, in single combat without chaos empowerment. Can the Lion/Konrad defeat everyone below them. And my Answer is yes.
Your list sucks. No idea why Sanguinius is number 1. He is greatly overrated. And Magnus? He is the most powerful Primarch in absolute terms and Angron was a gladiator and warrior his whole life.
lists don't work, it's balance
You're deluded if you think he would beat Ferrus.
Guilliman and Lorgar are equally matched during the Horus Heresy, but no chance now with Lorgar as a daemon primarch. Not unless the Emperors sword has some secret tricks we dont know about.
The sword does permakill demons
In a war? All of them.
My personal 1v1 ranking also had him at the 14th place now that you've made me count it.
Crusade era ranking:
1. Sanguinius
2. Horus
3. Cruze
3. Lion
5. Russ
6. Fulgrim
7. Corax
8. Khan
9. Vulkan
10. Angron
11. Ferrus
12. Magnus
13. Dorn
14. Guilliman
15. Perturabo
16. Mortarion
17. Alpharius
18. Lorgar
Wasn't it stated that Angron was the only other Primarch who could beat Sanguinius aside from MAYBE Horus?? He certainly defeated Russ even if his army was outmaneuvered and he ended up in a kill zone. Even then, his World Eaters took more skulls than the Wolves did and Russ didn't argue when Angron claimed that even if he died, his legion would go on to kill the rest of Russ' legion.
.
I agree with your list for the most part though I'm curious about your reasoning for having Curze so high (rather than around Corax level), Ferrus where he is, Angron anywhere near as low as he is, and Guilliman higher than anyone aside from Alpharius and Lorgar. Even Dorn seems a little low and if we're being realistic, I'm not sure there's any reason why Magnus should be on top given the scale of his powers. Being second to only the Emperor in power and being more than capable of sitting on the Golden Throne indefinitely - despite the effort of doing so for more than a few hours turned Malcador to dust - seem a like something that would elevate Magnus to the top of the list simply by using his powers to overwhelm any of his brothers.
@@justinanderson2460 Obviously my 40k lore isn't as complete as I'd like, so especially in regards to Ferrus I really struggle to know the scope of where his strength should be. As for everyone else you talked about I think they're all really hard to place, especially Magnus. Russ to me seems like he sort of allows himself to be beaten against Angron, the Lion and even Horus to some degree. But I think it's equal parts that compared to him being unable to discard his emotions and be this cold blooded executioner. So is his full potential as high as I've put him? I don't know.
I think I'm too biased against Angron, as I feel he would just "slip up" against too many primarchs, despite his ridiculous combat prowess. And with Curze I think his foresight is just too OP on top of him being a top tier fighter primarch. If I remember correctly he is 1:1 with the Lion -but would have killed him if he wasn't stabbed through his back/collarbone. And the Lion is my highest rated primarch when it comes to fighting without having the plot-armor that Sanguinius and Horus have(with Sanguinius being presented as the best fighter, Horus the best of the best, and them both having to die where they're written to die). So that makes Curze as dangerous as I've put him by process of elimination. Though I could just as likely place him below Russ and above Fulgrim.
I also think that, yes -Guilliman is a statecrafter and strategist rather than a fighter, but because he is so brainy it bleeds into his fighting and makes him better than most people give him credit for. When he isn't borderline suicidal like in the current lore he should be able to outsmart opponents that are magnitudes better than him, and therefor out""skill"" them even in 1v1 combat.
Magnus has the biggest "scope" of powers, period. But I don't think he is that great at applying those powers to combat, or at least not in regard to 1v1-ing other primarchs. There are also Primarchs like Russ, Dorn and the Lion who have bullshit anti-warp powers, so that would drive him down the list. But he IS hard to place, because theoretically he should be able to do major psyker BS unless the battle isn't initiated completely against him. Though I also think he is so prideful that he could be baited into melee against his brothers.
Lastly I agree with Dorn being a bit low. But I feel like Perterado, Mortarion, Guilliman, Alpharius and Dorne are all "battlefield commanders + something else" rather than being primarily fighter primarchs. Drone and Alpharius can function as independent actors, but I don't think they're necessarily made to hammer primarch level foes without the encounter being engineered by them.
@@PigeonCrash +
Ferrus is, I do agree, hard to place. He's not quite the the list Fulgrim is but he's almost as strong as Vulcan physically. Over all we just don't have nearly enough to go on compared to most of his brothers.
.
Russ didn't lose to the Lion at all. He stopped fighting and then got sucker punched. Besides, neither were out for blood so that's far from definitive. Horus vs Leman is also kinda hard because Horus was empowered (at least to some degree) by Chaos but Russ was wielding a specifically Anti-Chaos weapon. That said, he did have Horus essentially beat but his emotions get the better of him and it allowed Horus to turn the tables at the end and escape.
.
I have to disagree with Angron though. Russ allowing himself to lose is a possibility I suppose but considering that Angron left snapped his sword, beat him into he ground and left Russ crawling away, spitting up his own blood, I can't imagine Russ, with the pride he has, taking such a vicious beating - especially in front of his sons - just to try and prove a point. He was, after all tasked by the Emperor to bring Angron to heel but Russ deemed this something he could not accomplish and ended up leaving instead. I'm actually interested about what you mean by "slip up" and where you get the idea. When you consider his history as a gladiator (where "slipping up usually means your death) and his own rage combined with the Butcher's Nails driving him to fly comic almost every time, I personally can't see him exactly making mistakes.
.
The foresight thing really is a big bonus and it's hard to fight against. The Lion did it but he's arguably the best swordsman of the lot when we're talking overall skill. Horus is yes, the best of me best in practically everything but gets edged out in specializations
Sanguinius is almost as skilled as the Lion but has his inner ferocity AND a clearer, more pure version of Konrad'a pre-cognition on top of that. Plus... y'know... flight. I appreciate your reasonable logic in the placing of Curze though. I personally do oscillate between having him essentially where you have him and then down at Corax level but even then, Corax fluctuates for me as well so it's kinda up in the air for me. This is why I like getting other people's views and thoughts on it.
.
I see what you mean with Guilliman and I do agree to an extent however, I think it's more of a "gets better against a foe each time he loses". Think of the simulation where Corax actually defeats Guilliman in a strategic battle the fist time they try it, bit then never wins again. Similarly, I think Guilliman has the benefit of improving more and more each time against a specific foe but at the same time, I do think that this would only stretch so far - particularly in raw combat where he is one of the lesser skilled and gifted innately. He definitely gets roo much crap in my opinion however, I still see most of the other Primarch's also having their own advantages which help balance out Guilliman's tactical prowess - particularly in a one on one combat where his strategies are far more limited than in larger scale engagements.
.
I know I already mentioned this, but Malcador was able to body and even outright intimidate even the Primarchs with his powers and Magnus is a tier against above Malcador. The Sigilite literally his a planet in the Warp woth his powers and thendragged it out again later. The guy was ridiculous. I do agree with some of your sentiment about Magnus being baited into melee and his pride and so on however, I'm more in the camp of it basically being for plot that Magnus wouldn't just turn most of his brothers into a peanut butter sandwich on contact if he so chose to. I get that Russ has anti-psyker properties which is part of the reason he won against Magnusin canon - combined with the Sisters of Silence and the fact he got a lucky shot in that hit Magnus in his psyker Eye (I mean Russ literally lashed out blindly after being smacked himself and his happened to hit Magnus where he was weakest) and despite all this, he still nearly died. Corn is so reasonable that the Warp literally recoiled from his presence so there's that. Bit what anti-psyker abilities does the Lion have?? And even with this stuff, There's no reason Magnus couldn't just grow himself to the size of a Titan again and step on them. He's even slowed/stopped time before. It's a little hard to see how he doesn't defeat practically anyone without some degree of plot set against him
.
I think Dorn was always a commander+ type until more recent lore that had him as a master swordsman up that with the best of them. Then again, he IS hard to place above a lot of others as well. I've never really seen mortarion as the commander type in the same way I see Perturabo, Dorn, Guilliman and Alpharius, I'm curious why you see him that way. I don't personally have a completely ironed out list myself, I'm still working on it and need to reread the Horus Heresy books but I do enjoy collecting knowledge and opinions (and the reasoning behind them) from others to add to my own.
@@justinanderson2460 The Lion and Russ were both out for blood after Russ tackled the lion. Its stated as much that both are bloodied in multiple places. However with before it turns into a brawl The Lion defeats him soundly, and the book makes a point that the Lion viewed it as an honor duel because he never followed through with his killing blow when he disarmed Russ. There is no canonical statement of nobody being able to defeat Sanguinius, and if you had to pick a single primarch to win a fight 1v1 against any other The Lion is likely your best bet. Malcador outright states amongst his brothers he's the apex predator, and his brothers are unnerved by him. Guilliman states outright he knows he's overshadowed by The Lion. Horus is so afraid of him he sends the Dark Angels to the opposite side of the galaxy because he knows they'd whoop his band of traitors probably by themselves.
The Lion is also the perfect counter to Curze and Sangy's precognition. Canonically The Lion is such an instinctually perfect fighter he's capable of thwarting Curze's precog. Curze see's the next blow, moves to block it, The Lion instinctually recognizes it and changes the attack. Curze could see the future and was caught completely unawares when The Lion stabs him.
@@djii7837+
To be fair, I haven't read the Lion's and Russ's brawl since just after it came out so I'd have to go re-read it again.
.
Concerning Sanguinius, read again friend. I said that it was stated that only Angron and possibly Horus would be able to take down Sanguinius. I believe it was Corax who said this but o could be mistaken there.
.
A lot of what you said is also likely, but not concrete. Malcador's statement IS a very high commendation because the Sigilite is not known for his boasting or favouritism - which likely means he's right. Guilliman does feel overshadowed by the Lion yeah, but it's less unnerved or afraid and more like he feels his big brother is like the golden child who he is in the shadow of - which, at least compared to most of his brother except maybe Horus and Sanguinius, is kinda true of El'Johnson. However, Horus being afraid is up for debate. It's arguably more likely that he knew the Lion's affinity for military command, his strategic genius and the overall power of his Legion (From size to prowess) was something that could really mess with his plans.
.
I remember Curze having his pre-cog fooled by the Lion and yes, that give a him a very good edge against his brothers who have it. The Lion is definitely up there among the top fighters of his brothers and is undoubtedly the best duelist among them. However, I struggle to see him overcoming all of them as some have advantages that he can't as easily counter along with comparable skill. Moreover, not every battle is a duel and we've seen that be an issue for him in the past (for example, Curze managing to defeat him once he forced the fight to become a brawl - despite the Lion getting Konrad with a surprise stab to the gut before the fight even started).
He could beat... Lorgar. Dassit lol. Lion? Pipe dream. Fulgrim? HAH. Perturabo? Stop it. Jaghatai? Too slow. Russ? WOOF. Dorn? No. Curze? *Maniacial laughter*. Sanguinius. Ferrus? Nope. Angron? Chainaxes go burrrr! Mortarion? Too weak. Magnus? Warp spaghetti get er ready. Horus? He was the best of them. Vulkan? A bear hug would be enough. Corvus? Nahhhhh. Alpharius? Too straightforward
I like how our glorious Hawkboy don't need a descriptor.
Alpharius's body died, yes. But. In the story, Alpharius literally got his psykers to essentially take his brain/memories/soul and put it into one of his commanders. So, essentially while Alpharius's body died, he himself lived on.
Damn gotta love that corax running away retcon, can't make any loyalist primarchs look week now can we
OK now you know we'll be asking for an ultramarines vs. Other legions analysis
on the point of Alpharius against Valdor, if i recall correctly he was wearing auramite Armour he had taken from a Custode so you could class he was in something even better than Power Armour - i could be wrong though this is just from memory
Nope... sorry only the spear of the custodes.. no armor
40minutes..? LETS GOOOOOO going to be a good day!
Did we read the same novel? What i read was that Rogal cut Alpharius from head to balls after a marine saved Rogal.
a thought i had is i wonder how well the legions would fare fighting one another with their primarchs leading them. like if the Big G and Perturabo fought 1v1 yeah im kinda with you its a close 50/50 but what about them with their legion where Perturabo is a battle of attrition master and GuilliBob a master tactician how would that fight pan out? and im sure some of the other primarchs fighting with their legion would be a pretty metal debate
In short, upper middle out of all of them
There is more to a character than his power level is think, and I hope that GW thinks so as well
@chapter master valrak has got to be happy about this
He has a Fists anal butt machine he calls the Pain Glove. Don't expect him to remove his loyalist pyjamas (his power armour).
13:55
Shenanigans?! Are you talking about Shenanigans?!?