Is there a DEF Shortage?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Many countries are running out of DEF and without DEF, many newer generations of trucks and buses cannot run. The US may be next. In this video, I share everything i have read and researched about a possible DEF shortage as well as go over what DEF or Diesel Exhaust Fluid is.
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Dubious Solutions:
1. Hack the sensor or ECU, or trick them using a plug-in module that intercepts the signal.
2. Reuse DEF bottles (mark them with sharpee) by drinking A LOT of caffeinated drinks and… Uh… Do make sure you use a filter!
3. Convert the motorcoach to electric, and simply use the diesel engine as a generator; it'd be a crude form of hybrid.
4. Modify the DEF system to recycle as much of the stuff as possible once it goes past the sensor. It’d be tricking the system without reprogramming it.
very informative video, thanks
Shout out to the Ninja.
Strange how a shortage of DEF comes around the interdiction of battery-powered tractor-trailers
@Carl Ferrigno
You realize that the reason the economy is completely wrecked was the botched pandemic response in 2020..right?
Also, DEF may end up being a temporary need, until DFI becomes more prevalent.
@@justin423 lol keep believeing the scamdemic
The op stated that nobody in charge will let the economy come to stop over def. have you seen who is in charge and the lack of movement on any problems so far?
So you're saying if you run out of DEF....urine trouble?
I'll show myself out now.
LOL!!!! Nice pun David!
@@MotorcoachWorld Just have the PAX you know what in the DEF tank.
I'll leave now too.
You did forget to mention vehicles needing Blinker Fluid to operate. 😆 Love your videos. I always look forward to the next upload.
Thanks Nate. LOL I'm going to do a video on blinker fluid one day hahaha
@@MotorcoachWorld April fools video 😂
Lots of vehicles running on empty in the blinker fluid reservoir. LOL
Nate Oliver you just couldn't resist 🤣.
@@MotorcoachWorld And you mentioned brake fluid. Motor coaches and trucks haven't used that in more than 1/2 century.
Anyone else remember the toilet paper shortage Johnny Carson caused by joking about a toilet paper shortage?
IOW. we could be looking at a DEF jam.
I guess we better start making our own UREA
I’d advise not to stock up too much. It goes bad quickly.
not true, it last about 1 year if stored at proper temperature.
It has a shelf life of one year unless you open the container. Then you either use all of it or throw whatever you don't use away.
They say 2 year shelf life, but I wouldn't risk using anything older than 1 year. Crystalized DEF can wreak havoc on your emissions system.
Sensitive to light and temperature. A year if stored properly.
@@tradesman63 what temperature is best to store it at?
What the DEF???
Apparently, pouring water in the DEF tank works.
LOL really???
The shortage is here! Good vid.
Hi James!
Could not find a way to contact you outside of work.
What are your thoughts on the Prevost 97 H3-41 60 series with Allison 500
Send me an email. Jwang@peoriacharter.com
The wheels on the bus go round and round Round and round Round and round The wheels on the bus go round and round All through the city 🌃
Haha my truck doesn't need that shit my old 5.9 can run on almost anything lol
Excellent Blog James, this DEF story has been the hot and heated talk in the RV world as well. Most of us with the newer coaches are concern particular since we just had a big problem with the DEF Head sensors. Because of the shortage in computer chips for the DEF Heads, DOT has authorized a temp override of the DEF computer.. Just a little info for you.. Thanks.. Herbie & Mary.
That's very interesting. Appreciate this tidbit of information. I was completely unaware that they'd already start doing that. Thank you so much for commenting Herbie and Mary
@@MotorcoachWorld Yes Sir, The EPA and DOT was catching so much heck that they now allow a computer program to be entered on to your coach provided that you have a total DEF head failure. A Cummins tech will upload a program that will allow your coach to operated as normal, since there is a shortage of computer chips to repair the DEF Head issue. If they can do it for that issue then I'm sure it can be done if DEF becomes unavailable. Now! If we can just get the fuel prices to come down, I never paid this much for diesel even when I was driving my W-900 .
There is a shortage of DEF fluid and sensors. Sensors that cost $200 now cost up to $4000 on eBay. Trucking companies, independent truckers, bus companies, RV owners and government agencies are competing for the fluid and sensors.
No mention of domestically manufacturing truck parts in the infrastructure bill. It makes me think they're intentionally phasing out diesel trucks.
Hi James, thanks for sharing. 👍 I'm terribly unfamiliar with Most Prevost Motorcoaches, other than some basic knowledge of the H3-45 and H5-60 and even less so in regards to the Le Mirage (I'm thinking the Le Mirage has the curved side windows?
I'm moderately familiar with the engine and transmission options of the above models.
I'm not sure how involved you get with older coaches?
Mainly I'm interested in mid/late 80's to 1998 MCI coaches. For the most part 8v92ta and 6v92ta's in combo with the HT series Allison automatics. Lesser so, but have considered Series 60/Allison B500 models, as a second choice.
I am however also considering a 1990 Prevost with the 8v92ta and 5 speed Allison, (the 40' model with fluted St and curved windows).. Unfortunately the auction on the Prevost ends September 26th, near noon.
Is it true that parts are more proprietary for Prevosts, especially older models in comparison to MCI of the same approximate vintage? I'm guessing windows would be more. I'm also wondering if the situation of hidden rust can be much more difficult to detect than MCI's?
I do realize coaches of any make are costly to repair and maintain, however I'd like to not add to the expense by choosing a Prevost instead of an MCI if the above information i mentioned is correct.
I'm able to do most repairs, and am familiar with, and dare I say enjoy working on the Series 71 and Series 92 2 Stroke Detroits.
Keep up the excellent work with your videos 👍👍
Many, many thanks in advance for all y'all's time and assistance, it's much appreciated.
PS, Any opinions are also appreciated in regards to reliability of MC-9, MC-12, 96a2 & a3, and 102a, b, c3, & possibly
102d3 and dl3 models. (really any mid 80's MCI's to about 1998,
Sincerely, C.I.M.
...PEE 😳 WHAT, I spilled some on my hand last week. I'm going to the doctor first thing in the morning 😒😩😪😝
That DOT T Shirt is classic 😀
LOL I was waiting on someone to notice it LOL!
@@MotorcoachWorld I guess it means Peoria Charter has a sense of humor 😀
Oh yeah it isn't cheap here now.
One boss of a trucking company recently got 2 1ltr bottles and it cost him 100aud.....compared to about 20bucks for same amount 12 months ago
Just to let you know that there is still quite a big number of diesel powered trucks without death and never had death are still running on the road they may not be allowed in California New York in a few other States but most other States don't care if you have death or not just mainly the New York California Some cities on the East Side of the United States but those are the only ones I can think of that are only the ones I have restriction in is California and probably New York And I'm the professional truck driver.
Waiting for the comment that says "there is DEF a shortage of DEF"
Or "1:33 'and without DEF' we would all be immortal"
LOL!! I really hope someone does that!
We just had the last of those GM City buses leave the reserve fleet here in our City a few years ago. No DEF needed in them for sure. Pouring those boxed jugs into the tanks can be miserable, especially when it is -40. Stay safe and once again loving the vids,
One possible solution James… You’re sitting in it! A Dirty D, and they’re dirt cheap! ❤️ Happy holidays and thank you for the fabulous content! Your bus friends from Gorham, Maine
Thanks for the comment! I hope you had a great holidays and Happy new year to you!
At 2:39 Urea is 32.5% (not 23.5%) + 67.5% DI water , I do enjoy your vids. DEF does have a temperature dependent shelf life.
Yeah I had a brain fart moment. Thanks
Come up to Canada, we have TONS of that stuff. Just check out any Canadian Tire store in Southern Ontario, Canada, and they have hundreds of containers of DEF fluid in every store. No shortage up here.
I think its way better to leave trucks and buses parked at their home depots rather than bypass this DEF fluid. Don't you think? I think buses and trucks should be replaced by rickshaws and bicycles. Ask the EPA and they would celebrate this insane idea.
Any mechanic once given the "go" can easily byass this. The world would be a much better place without the unappointed, ussasigned EPA.
No Def, no Life
There isn't a newer diesel on my lot, just old school stuff.......Cummins NH250, Big Cam III, 12 valve and a couple of Oldsmobiles.
I wonder if you could just pour water in the def tank. Maybe the computer can't tell the difference.
It can
Zazur shopping 🛒
Okay so I'm a fueler with Frito Lay, around here it's referred to as "Horse Piss" I thought that was just a joke because of how bad it smells, your video just taught me that no DEF is actually made from Piss 🤣
Zazur transport
Ok ...Being a Pre D.E.F. driver. If you filled a D.E.F. tank full. How long would that take to empty out? And we wonder why Milk is $5.00 to $7.00 a gallon now.
Great question Jeff. For every 50 gallons of diesel a vehicle will burn 1 gallon of def
Only came into affect in australia in 2012 btw
This was a really interesting video James! Thanks for explaining this especially for folks like me who only know about DEF from their truck driver friends. But also am curious how much this could impact the railroad industry. It seems like they would have the same issues, just on a bigger scale. Some commenters have noted that "workarounds" have been approved for their trucks due to DEF parts supply shortages...would the rail industry be able to get similar workarounds? It seems like they should, given they are also critical to the supply chain.
The urea content of DEF/AdBlue is 32.5% and distilled water is 67.5%. The average price of AdBlue in Australia is around A$3 per litre
Yeah thanks for the correction. I read my own script incorrectly.
James it would be an honor to have your professional guest commentary on Mark Rumps channel Trucking Answers with Mark from his home in Terra Haute Indiana every Monday at 11:30 am E.S.T. Even though Mark and the rest of everyone is truckers all positive professional drivers & 4 wheelers are welcome.
Hey George thanks for the comment. Yeah I would love to do that someday.
I will need an invite first 😊.
@@MotorcoachWorld James I am going to mention this to mark on the live chat Monday he is real upbeat and positive like yourself & Me Anyone can join in on the live chat and and get dialogue going about new CDL rules or road conditions you could talk positive about the bus industry & driver recruitment & training & retention issues
At my local town municipality where I work, my foreman purchases DEF by the 55 gallon drum. Takes us about 6-7 months, to drain one barrel. Our town has 3 barrels on hand, so we should be good for a while. Oh, btw.. DEF also has a shelf life of about 2 1/2 years, before it starts to crystallize. Awesome job on the article! Keep up the good work!
It depends on how big your tanks are.I drive a commercial class 8 truck and I have a fairly small DEF tank but I only need to fill my def tank every 3rd or 4th fuel fill up but I will top it off with every fuel fillup because not all fuel stops have bulk DEF available.
Def likes to stay in a wine cellar type environment. It crystallizes when the water evaporates out of the solution. It degrades in the heat and when exposed to light
Another thing that a lot of people can do is to add some restored pre 2009 trucks and coaches to their fleet
bing!
And if there are "regulations", just don't go there.
Let the stuff rot on the dock.
"Why is everyhting not working?"
Well, remove your nonsense regulations and the world will run again
"But it doesn't feel good!"
How's it feeling now?
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Electric doesn't solve the problem completely because modern combustion power plants (coal, oil, gas, incinerators) are required to use SCR as well. (They use straight ammonia because they don't mind handling hazardous materials instead of urea+water which breaks down into ammonia). Unlike other many countries, US has very good domestic natural gas infrastructure and production, and natural gas is the raw feedstock to make ammonia and urea. That was all the fracking stuff.
In terms of the plastic containers, just go to a truck stop and get from a bulk dispenser. Typically cheaper and easier.
They're having a problem exporting it out of the country. The plastic is needed for the export containers due to some kind of code
I just retired from a fertilizer company that makes DEF. All the major truck stop places (Love’s, flying J etc) bought from us. I guess they are really busy now. Love the content James . Keep it up.👍
Also...if in the US, we will rely on my Olivia...my old bus that doesnt need DEF or most fluids (she'll run...she's used to shortages LOL)...if that day comes, then we are in BIG trouble!
Their won’t be any gas delivered to the stations. It takes a diesel truck, to deliver the gas to the station.
Interesting video I learned about DEF and what it is made out of. Back in my day of driving as long as the DD6V and 8V71s were maintained and rebuilt I don't remember blowing black smoke out of the tail pipe. I drive a diesel car and use only 2% low Sulphur diesel no bio diesel. If I ran a hose from the exhaust of my diesel engine car into the passenger compartment and someone does the same with a gas engine and we start the engines let's see who dies first. In my opinion gas exhaust is a bigger polluter than diesel. It is my understanding that MCI's electric coach averages about 250 miles per charge not good. Maybe someone needs to experiment; instead of flushing the holding tank from the toilet into the sewer fill up the DEF tank instead. James I would have given a week's pay to have that driver's seat and power steering in the 1970s and 80s and maybe a tank of window washing fluid.
Install a direct tube from the bus toilet to be the def tank and keep your passengers well hydrated
LOL nice George. That is hilarious. On a serious note if you actually peed into your death tank you would cause major issues to your exhaust system LOL
@@MotorcoachWorld lol death instead of def 😂😂😂.
Be careful when you consider stockpiling. DEF has a shelf life after which use will foul your emissions system leaving you with a large non warranty bill
Yes will very true. However the shelf life of Def is one year.
At least unless you open the container after you open the container you either use all of it or throw what you don't use away.
I work for the Illinois Department of Transportation. Having constant issues with DEF pumps failing. Since Covid, they’re becoming almost impossible to obtain. EPA has allowed International to bypass the DEF system on trucks waiting for pumps. The technicians have been out several times to do this on our trucks. Just hoping they forget to come back to undo it…
Wow really?? That's interesting 🤔. Thanks for sharing this!
When DEF first came out it sounded like something fake. Like somebody telling you you need blinker fluid🤣 On another topic you mentioned the battery powered buses. I’m always curious how a city bus can run all day. How many hours do they run and then switch them?
Regenerative braking. City busses stop as much as they start.
South Australia has hybrid busses.
They use regenative breaking
There is most Definitely a global shortage of DEF quality sensors and tank sending units.
no problems on the east coast, get 300 gal. a month, no noise from our supplier, Tilley.
This is DEFinitely an interesting subject. I am lucky if the morning crew even remembers to have the DEF tank filled before leaving the yard. Thanks for sharing.
DEF Leppard lol
Since over the road trucks typically get fuel in truck stops, many larger companies have banned drivers from buying def in the box/bottle. It is nearly double the price of buying in in bulk in the truck stop. Plus it is immensely easier to put it in the tank with a nozzle similar to a gasoline nozzle. And it's right at the fuel pump.
Thank goodness my truck doesn't have SCR, EGR, or use DEF. So once others come to a crawl, I'll just truck on down the road right past them.
Will this lead to a push to bring back all those beat up trucks back on the road.
Those old beat up trucks are called "Glider kit tractors" And the boy's in D.C. have already put in place rules to screw that all up. Not allowing truckers to bypass ELD regulations.
Okay. So DEF is basically like one part urine/UREA and two parts deoxidized wooder, yes? Why can't we just make our own DEF doing just that
That's a great question. I think we do but it's not one of our larger industries... But yes. Maybe we should make more
0:50 -- I think you pretty much got em all downpat, except for the gear oil for the differentials
EDIT: and obviously no brake fluid needed for the air brakes lol
We used to pee in the tank of buddies cars as a prank. We used to make them go to supply to get exhaust fluid and blinker fluids, or vortex generator fluid.
Now we use pee and exhaust fluid in one. Whats next...exhaust, pee and oil inside headlights? I don't like this timeline anymore...can I get off at the next stop? I keep pressing the stop request!
11:23 if the government gets DEFperate enough...
I'll see myself out
Lol!!!
I heard DEF causes a lot of emission issues from watching trucking channels. And how often do you fill DEF compared to filling up the diesel tank? Every other fill up???
That's a loaded question, but the basic rule of thumb is 1 gallon of DEF is used for 50 gallons of diesel.
I understand your points you make but overall I disagree. I don’t think there will get to be a DEF shortage, at least not in North America. Urea is a commonly used and produced fertilizer as you mentioned, the US and Canada make thousands of tons of the stuff every year. There is a fertilizer plant near me that gets urea in railroad hopper cars from Canada. It would be fairly easy to redirect the fertilizer urea production to transportation use, and use other fertilizers. It’s just a matter of cost, the cost of DEF and crop production would raise slightly if that was done.
Ultimately if this does spur development of cleaner engine technology or a movement away from fossil fuel vehicles all together that’s a good thing in my view. People forget how in the 70’s the air around truck stops and train yards would be so corrosive because of NOX emissions that workers would have to cover their cars with blankets to keep the air from eating the paint off. DEF is annoying but worth it for cleaner air.
Very informative video. Thanks for posting it.
James, we might want to stop flushing our pee down the toilet bowl and saving it for future use! Just kidding! It's probably not a good idea to hoard the stuff like the toilet paper folks did, though, because it's my understanding that the stuff doesn't have a very long shelf life, namely a year or less.
DEF has a shelf life so if you buy up a bunch it will go stale before you use it.
Yes very true the shelf life is one year. Unless you open the container. Once opened, you either use the whole container or throw out what you don't use.
i think you missed blinker fluid ;)
Great video got feed the ice cream cone of death 👌 😳
Easy fix, just fill your DEF tank with 23.5% pee, then add some deionized water! 😁🍻 Problem solved, although there could be an adult beverage shortage caused by this fix! 😂
You can filter your pee etc.
You forgot the blinker fluid🤣
Lol
I wish I could get a hard copy of that magazine shipped to me in australia. But I'm broke
I owned an electric car for 5 years. Bought it with 2,600 miles on it - yes two thousand six hundred miles - for $8200 in 2015. 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV. Who names those things? Window sticker was $36k. My full time work had chargers so I drove for the cost of insurance. I sold it to Carvana in May, 2020 for $6k. I drove it 5 years for $2200. The power came from a coal plant! HA HA HA!! Have not driven an electric bus yet, but the electric motors have instant torque. The buses I drive the most (local college) have Detroit Series 60's in them, no DEF there. I just started a 2nd part time job for a bus company with newer equipment, so they will be in trouble if/when the DEF supply dries up. Bus driving is a hobby I get paid to do! LOVE IT. James - another awesome video. Keep this great content coming!
Interesting part of that is my 2009 Chevy Silverado Hybrid get almost 80 miles more than a New Mitsubishi Evo car at only 400 miles per charge. According to a recent T.V. commercial. My truck get 470 to 480 miles. Even with a V8. And how much I don't stomp on the gas peddle..
You all in the motor coach industry have nothing to worry about. If things get bad in the DEF supply, just go out and purchase at least one large funnel for each bus. If you run out and engine goes into limp mode, pull over, get out the funnel and have all the male passengers pee in the DEF tank, problem solved. If you are on a trip and know you are going to run out of DEF and will not be able to get more, stop at the nearest store and purchase a lot of beer to hand out to your male passengers.
Do you know the story of CHANG & ENG ?? (look at the history of their descendants)
You clack me up!
"After all you can't believe everything you see on the Internet"! Lol!
Reason number 403 why my pickup is not a diesel. Thanks, James!
Put the trains back on the tracks. Get rid of the semis and d e f
Sorry, new trains use DEF. Boats too.
Sorry but that’s not going to happen