Why Heat Pumps are now leaving people COLD
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- What your salesman didn't tell you. Heat pumps are failing folks right around the country in cold climates. Why? What went wrong? Is there a secret to making them work in cold climates? All without breaking the bank.
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Let me know if you have other ideas or tips you do with your heat pump to make life more comfortable - Products I showe Mr Cool: amzn.to/48DTF4p Senville: amzn.to/48IPNPS
Put a roof over the outdoor unit
the old way to size a standard heat pump was undersize slightly to the summer load to get the humidity out by running longer, thats not the way to size the newer variable speed compressor systems, size slightly bigger than required for winter, the summer humidity will get removed in the summer and you'll have heat in the winter with less struggle,,,, also get the units up off the ground by twice the normal snowfall,,,
Use hot water from the boilers and install a heat recovery system for the flue gases of the exhaust of the water heaters to preheat the water entering the boiler and/or preheat the combustion air entering the boiler.
Also a wood 🪵stove is a great investment. It can be used for space heating and water heating. Additionally it can be retrofitted to burn many kind of fuels (natural gas, propane, coal, fuel oil, organic waste, etc.).
I'm thinking about getting a dual hose heat pump with an inverter compressor, from what I've heard those units work pretty well. I have a friend with one and he's in a -6 climate and it keeps up pretty well.
I installed a Mr. Cool in a 20' x 20' building that used to be a small barn. The 2x4 walls and ceiling are insulated with fiberglass batts, and there is rigid foam on the exterior under wood siding. The inside is drywall. There is an uninsulated concrete slab under the building. The Mr. Cool keeps it warm when you're standing, but I spent 2 nights in it babysitting a foster dog. Temp was set to 72 degrees. I was laying down on a solid molded plastic couch and the dog was in a crate on the floor. Neither of us was comfortable. Since warm air rises and the wall unit is mounted high, the warm air stays in the upper half. A ceiling fan might help keep the air mixed and bring more warmth to the lower half of the space.
I want to build a wood platform filled with a few layers of rigid foam insulation that's left over from the exterior of the building.
My friend is considering getting a small electric fake wood stove.
My experience is that our heat pump is extremely efficient most of the year when it's just a bit cool outside. There's typically only a couple days a year we really need to fire up the old wood stove to stay comfortable. It's also pretty cheap to keep a bunch of firewood in the basement in case of an extended power outage. Though what made a really big difference was renovating the living room and discovering that a large section of the outer wall was basically uninsulated. Simply fixing that and installing better windows cut our heating costs in half.
All the nordic countries use heat pumps a lot for the last 20 yearsand we are not stupid.
@@arveskjellanger4121 Jepp you guys have cheap electricity, I have a heatpump but yes, I fire up my stove also 2-3 times per year just to support it through the really cold permafrost days. But we also pay 20-40 cents per KWh! But yes the efficiency goes through the roof once temperatures go above 0c which is the 80% usecase in our winters here!
Well said. Heat pumps are great but you need a second back up heat source for a few days a year. Those who claim their only heat source year round is an air source heat pump is dishonest (or they live in the Sahara Desert).
@@arveskjellanger4121 Nordic countries have very cheap electricity. It always comes down to money and the cost difference between electricity and other heating mediums
I opted for a dual fuel system. In the winter my heat pump operates based on an outside temperature sensor. Once it drops below 30 degrees I have a gas furnace that automatically kicks on. Best of both worlds. You get the efficiency of the gas when the heat pump become less efficient.
I assume you must be on natural gas? With an inverter heap pump, the cutover temperature for propane is MUCH lower.
Same. I’m in North East, so oil is my backup. Below 30 I also run wood stove and the oil burner doesn’t kick in at night anyway. Saving a lot of money this way.
I am in NH, and use propane boiler as my backup but I don't turn it on till it gets to about 20f, and even then the heat pump does most of the heating.
@@matthewbeasley7765 The fuel type means nothing. The changeover is based on when the heatpump can no longer deliver enough BTUs to sustain a set temperature. In the northeast we must size a heat pump to the cooling load and ductwork size if we expect dehumidification. Cooling loads in this area are usually a third of the heating load.
@@anthonyspadafora1384 There are two circumstances here.
One is when the auxiliary heat will kick in based on the interior temperature. The thermostat will kick in due to the temperature being below the heat pump only balance temperature.
The other is when an outdoor thermostat is used. It is a standard feature on most heat pumps that is not elected in many cases. It is useful when there is a known outdoor temperature where the alternate heat is more economical. When the outdoor temperature no longer is above the outdoor thermostat temperature, the heat pump is shut down and the unit goes to only the alternate fuel as the first stage. This is most pronounced when natural gas is available. At high temperatures, the high COP of a heat pump makes it cheaper, but as it cools, that's no longer the case. Most other fuels like propane or oil never reach that point unless the electric price is really high.
I'm in a very old house and we got a ground source heat pump - we love that it doesn't suffer from these problems you describe where an air source heat pump has.
Super expensive though I imagine.
@@christophercharles3169 yes, high initial cost. The recurring costs it replaced were also high.
Only badly designed air source heat pumps have this issue. Air source heat pumps are not good at supplying very hot water when it's freezing. So the solution is to have large convectors, that way you don't need very hot water. For most homes this works out cheaper than investing in a ground source heat pumps while still being highly efficient.
@@teunvl95 I've found the best solution is HP + PV. I'm not really concerned about the higher energy usage during cold nights in our northern climate as the PV offsets it in the winter and during the summer sells so much back to the grid that our heating costs, running the house and charging the EV run less than ~$75 month averaged out for the year and that's with running on demand hot water.
Just the other day my dealer sent me an email offering us 490 watt panels for $88 dollars a piece. ROI is so low it's a better solution than a ground source system and less maintenance. PV is so cheap today I don't think ground source is worth installing any longer, maybe ten years ago but PV cost 10% of what it did back then.
@@teunvl95jepp that sums up our solution... we have a big water tank, water is heated up during the day and only is heated up in the night once it falls below a certain threshold. PV on top to support this system. But once per week we have to drive the water tank higher than 60c for legionelle prevention!
You make a very good point. A fireplace insert in the den used to get the room so warm we’d open the door to the patio to cool off. The heat was stuck in that room. We tried fans and a vent from the den’s cathedral ceiling through the attic to the living room. Nothing worked well. Then I had a ducted heat pump system installed. It distributed that heat through the house wonderfully! As long as I kept a fire going the heat strip didn’t come on. It was there if needed, but it was expensive. That was 2007 or so. Probably not as efficient as new ones. It was surprising to me how that insert could heat a 2000sf home. I expected it to help, but didn’t dream it would work as well as it did. With temps below zero I’ve been cringing for folks relying solely on heat pumps. My friend with a geothermal heat pump sees incredible savings. Here in the Ozarks we have lots of rocks too. Burying a line isn’t easy, but it’s incredibly efficient! If I had it to do over, I’d go that route. I’d still enjoy the wood stove though. Wood heat is just so soothing, especially with arthritis. The combination is perfect!
Edit-many electric and gas companies offer free inspection of homes and if needed you can get free attic insulation and they caulked any places where heat/air was escaping. It’s worth a call to see if your utility companies offer this free service! Did I mention FREE?!?
I installed an insert into my 1914 house and love that thing. I live in a wooded part of the city and gather wood all year, rotate it thru my wood shed to season it. The main heat is nat gas forced air :( which I hate. Having the insert is great when it gets really cold 30ish and wet/damp outside. My ex has a big old place with radiators (hydronic) but added some heat pumps to get some AC and better control over zones, etc.
If you are having troubles with a heat pump system keeping your house warm, and you have confirmed the heat pump is working as intended, you need to look at your attic. The number one way to lose heat or cooling in a house is by having a leaky house. The most cost effective way to improve your heating or cooling situation is to identify those leaks and seal them. Typically, the biggest culprit for air leakiness is the attic. So sealing that will likely significantly improve the performance of your heat pump in cold climates. The other potential issue in the attic is not enough insulation, this is mostly a potential problem with homes 25+ years old where the blown-in insulation has settled over time resulting in a reduction in performance. Small animals getting in your attic can also cause issues. Fix your attic situation, and you will likely greatly improve your heating situation, and this advice works no matter what kind of heating system you use.
Using a thermal imaging unit will find those heat/cool loss spots quickly. A riend had a new house built a few years ago, he loves tec tools, one day I brought the thermal imager over to play with it and found a section in the ceiling they forgot to put insulation in, it was summer time and that section was a hot spot, he might have never know.
Air sealing should be considered way before more insulation. Some people get sold more insulation without air sealing. A waste of money.
Someone in the comments of another video said go into a dark attic at night with the lights on below and see all the holes. Partially true. You also have to seal the tops of the walls where cold air drops into the partition walls and leaks out the receptacles.
Is blown in insulation better or worse than the rolls of the Pink Panther insulation?
@@dannydaw59it is neither better nor worse. You just have to make sure you get enough of either. If you want to upgrade your insulation there are other options. The first is Rockwool, it isn't a better insulator, but it is much more fire, water, and sound resistant so it provides additional benefits than just insulation. It is more expensive, but not unreasonable. It is my recommended option due to the fire resistance. If you want a better insulator you will need to go with closed cell spray foam (don't do open cell unless specifically necessary in your situation), but that comes with a hefty price. Spray foam is really best if you want to turn your attic into a living or storage space.
Do not forget the windows, the US shutter system is dreadful, you guys should really learn a lesson or two how we have in Europe our windows with 2-3 layers of glass and vacuum in between and a solid metal frame which has another layer of isolation between the contacts!
Windows can be a huge source of losing heat or getting heat in!
Geothermal heat pump is efficient no matter how cold the air gets outside.
I have a friend down the street here who did geothermal, its an amazing system, the install especially in rocky NH can be tricky and costly though, but long term its dirt cheap to run
High upfront cost though
@@TreDogOfficial yeah the digging is expensive unless you can DIY. Equipment is about the same- even lasts longer because it doesn’t have to be outdoors.
I came in here to mention this exactly. When most folks mention heat pumps, they are talking about air-to-air heat pumps. But a ground source or geothermal type is super efficient and reliable. Yes, the install can be expensive depending on where you live, but it gets cheap with each day of use.
I have seen farmers and ranchers install loops of poly pipe in the cesspool at the farm, recirculate glycol through the pipe, and heat the barns, homes and other buildings on the farm with only the everyday cost of electricity to run the circulation pumps.
@@TreDogOfficial Yes, about 10 years ago when I was building my house, it was going to be $25k. I decided I would just rather replace my regular heat system and get the newest technology as time passes than be locked into something like a geothermal system. It is also difficult to find anyone to work on them around here.
We are in Chicago, we just experienced wind chills of negative 44. I have a mitsubishi 4 ton hyperheat condense and 2x two ton air handlers. The system worked extremely well and never kicked in the emergency heaters. even on the coldest days. The house never dropped below sixty nine degrees.
My electric bill is set at $550 a month. And it sounds outrageous until you consider that we have two electric cars. And the entire house runs off electric, including 2 fridges, 2 freezers, and 2x washer dryers.
Romeoville is not Chicago.
@icecoldfire25 The entire state is Chicago. If I had stated romeoville, nobody would know where I was talking about. I could say Chicago and people in Poland would know where I was talking about.
$550/month seems unbelievable to me. We have a farm in the far west Chicago metro area and we are running electric livestock water tank heaters 24 hours a day in addition to our house electric appliances and a well pump, and our highest electric bill has been about $250/month. I think the Chicago area is a good candidate for a hybrid heat pump natural gas system since gas is so cheap around here. I would guess it's cheaper to run the heat pump down to about 40 deg, then switch to natural gas when it's colder.
works if you are lucky enough to live in an area with cheap electric, otherwise you would have a $2000 a month electric bill running all that
Jesus $550 a month in hydro? I only pay around $200 for my hydro and natural gas bill combined, and that's in worthless Canadian dollars.
I have a 90’s brick home in South Georgia. I had to add double r30 (on top of 10” blown ) above the master bath and single R30 above the master bedroom because they install the heat pump handler in one corner of the house and our bedroom/bath was in the opposite corner and the temp was 85 degrees in the rooms in summer. Adding insulation was financially are only option. Technician said the heat pump was running perfect but had a bad set up in the attic with the old boxes. We use a space heater in the winter like you suggested until we can remodel the bath and fix the problem. Thanks for all you do.
Had an air-source heat pump growing up. This was installed back in the mid-70s. We didn't get a lot of super-cold days but with a field in front of the house (facing north), it could get rough. The supplemental coils would kick in and the electric bill would jump. We had a fireplace insert and got a small kerosene heater to help. I'm sure the modern ground-source systems are much better. However, if I ever build and put in a heat pump, I'll investigate options for supplemental heat.
Heat pump and fireplace insert is best combination in my opinion. Have the fireplace insert going only when outside temps are around 25F or below and have just the fan running by itself in the HVAC ductwork to help circulating the heat from the fireplace insert. Heat pump I’m using is a 4-ton 5 stage inverter type (made by Carrier / Bryant / Heil… all identical).
With a properly designed system you don't need the fireplace. It got below 20 F outside this winter and our heat pump had no issues keeping up. We made sure to get large radiators when we had the heat pump installed. It's a Panasonic heat pump with an electric backup heater integrated into the unit, but this never needed to kick in.
I'm telling people, after doing this myself, that the best option is HP+PV, our costs are so low and with the new -22F HP's we don't care about the lost efficiency on cold nights in our northern climate. We do have back up oil from before I installed the HP's but truthfully we could probably live without it. Right now it's the middle of Feb and 31F out, the house is fine. Tomorrow, even if it's overcast the house will run completely on PV. All summer I'll sell PV back to the grid and reduce our winter costs even more and that's with a utility that doesn't give us net metering.
My gas furnace recently died and needed a new one, I inquired about a heat pump with the hvac company but was told it's just not worth it here. We get -20's and even -40's fairly regularly, so it would not be able to keep up. If ever my AC unit fails, then I might consider switching that out for a heat pump though, that way I'll still have the gas furnace but I can use the heat pump in spring/fall when it's not as cold. I am in process of putting in a wood stove though so that will basically be free heat.
Love these short concise videos! Thank you for your info
When we added mini-splits, we sized them for air conditioning, not heating, because we already had a wood stove. Depending on firewood prices, electricity prices, and temperature, we'll use whichever heating method is cheapest. The stove is great to have for winter power outages.
I am a HVAC contractor in Canada and provide both heat pump and gas furnace installations and always tell my clients the truth , If your going to remove your high efficiency gas furnace and replace it with a heat pump you will jeopardize your comfort and the cost of heating your home will double . Also in a power outage you can run a gas furnace on a very small 2000watt generator .
I agree that a gas furnace can easily be run off a small gas generator. However......if a home requires an input of, say, 150,000 Btu/hr to maintain comfort at a certain outdoor temperature, the heat pump is far more efficient, moving heat at minimal cost from the outdoors into the interior. It's only at very cold temperatures that the gas furnace starts to be the better choice vs and air-source heat pump. Several of my neighbors have done the math and gone ahead with heat pumps; Their increased electric costs are more than offset by the almost negligible gas bills. I will say this; if you have a furnace, or or gas, keep it for backup. It's already paid for, right?
that same 2000w generator will run a 24,000 BTU mini split with power left to spare
SE Pennsylvania. About 1400sf ranch house. Full basement. House is well insulated and tight. Heat pump is used for summertime cooling and heating to 20f. Below that we have a oil fired boiler, our emergency heat source selected via the thermostat. The boiler was installed originally to heat 2 rooms in the basement , baseboard hydroponics, and heat pump backup.
We also run only oil heat if we go away for an extended time in the winter. That way if any snow accumulation on the compressor does not matter.
And the original electric backup is on a manually selected switch just in case the boiler dies or heating oil get very expensive. As it is we use maybe 130 gallons of heating oil in a year mostly for winter trips. We fill the tank in summertime, usually 125 gallons.
Oil boiler was installed 20 years ago,
Good distinction on heat pump effectiveness and aux heat needs in NC vs New Hampshire. Here in NC as temps got down to 17F yesterday, 3 degrees below the 99% heat design temp for the area, my basic single stage 3 ton ducted heat pump ran continuously but the aux heat strips were never needed. My whole house energy use stayed below 4kw per hour except when my water heater came on in the afternoon.
In the past I found via my emporia vue monitor that heat strips were activating with each defrost cycle to the tune of 10kw for 2-5 minutes at increasing intervals as it got cooler. Once I realized the heat strips weren't necessary as part of the defrost cycle I disabled them on the defrost control board while leaving them able to come on if needed for aux heat. I never felt a blast of cold air during defrost, and per my heat pump's manual even down to 10F it would be twice as efficient as resistance heat though it's operating at half capacity. Natural gas would be nice if available at that point. If it got much cooler I'd likely be pulling out a space heater or two.
One thing I like about small space heaters vs a 10kw heat strip is that it would be much easier to run the 1500 watt space heater on my generator along with my heat pump which has a soft start kit, while 10kw heat strips would likely overwhelm my generator in the event of a power outage.
I have a heat pump in a townhouse that is about 50 years old in Pennsylvania. It is great in the non-Winter months, but in Winter, yes it seems to be on so much and has difficulty keeping the house warm. My house is not well insulated which is one of the main issues. Chris, great job standing outside with that snow whipping around! ❄😆
Thank you! It looks so nice out there, cold but the snow is pretty
Dave my parents home is about 40 some old home insulation was years behind. Windows, doors, and stuff like that can be the issue.
@@WilliamHollinger2019
Why don't use the hot water of the boiler to heat the house?
They are made to run all of the time, and with correct sizing they will be running all of the time. Oversizing hurts efficiency.
The tech is also a lot better than 50 years ago now
Love your videos. Appreciate your research and insight!
IU really appreciate that thank you
Something to keep in mind is that the efficiency of a heat pump is almost always going to be over 100% since the waste heat from the compressor ends up in the house via the condenser, so with very few exceptions, it will always be more efficient to run the heat pump than electric heaters, which are only ~100% efficient. If your supplemental heat is electric, even if you need to use it, you may as well keep the heat pump running anyways and let it do what it can because it will still be more efficient than resistance heaters.
Gas supplemental heat is a different story because gas is normally around 1/3-1/4 the cost of electricity per unit of heat. If you have gas supplemental heat, using it instead of the heat pump on cold days often ends up being cheapest even if the heat pump is keeping up fine, but the exact temperature it makes sense to switch to gas depends on your energy costs and the efficiency of your heat pump vs your gas boiler or furnace.
Don't forget about defrost. If the unit is spending quite a bit of time in defrost, it can indeed drop under 100% efficiency.
I wonder why OEM's don't make the indoor unit with 2 coils in parallel with each other, so that one coil is made for regular cooling, but the other coil is made for heating, so that the heating coil can be more condensed in construction by having a smaller tube, less fins, and a tighter path from inlet to outlet.
That surely will make that compressor work.
@@MR-backup It's unfortunately not that simple. Yes, making the condenser smaller and more restrictive will work the compressor harder by building more pressure and generate higher discharge temperatures, but with a higher compression ratio, the compressor won't move as much refrigerant through the system and won't move as much heat. Also, just like in cooling mode, if the condenser is less effective at dissipating heat, the evaporator will run warmer and won't be able to pick up as much heat from outside.
Last winter when #2 oil was 6$ a gallon that worked out to be more expensive then even resistance electric. It was well worth installing my Samsung max heat and using oil to supplement on the coldest days
@@diegofondoo1780 He should have called it what it is. Not efficiency, but SEER (Seasonal energy efficiency ratio). With a SEER of 12, with temps above freezing, you can move more heat from the cold outside to heat the indoors for 1/12th the electricity to provide the same heat with strip heaters. Strip heaters alone would have a SEER of 1. A point to note is that heat from a heat pump feels cold. It only warms a few degrees above ambient at any moment and pushes it with a blower motor. Gas or electric will warm to about 140 degF and create a warm breeze, but cycles back off quicker.
I live in North Carolina, but do have electric coil supplemental (Aux) heat. There are 2-3 days per year where it gets very cold (single digits), and am grateful my builder decided to add supplemental.
As an HVAC contractor in the Denver Metro area, we install many variations and brands of systems. If you have access to natural gas as most homes do in Colorado, then we always opt for the dual-fuel option. This allows the customer to have a heat pump and a natural gas furnace as the backup heating. We try to figure out what the best COP temperatures will be at when we set the setpoint for switch over to the furnace. You can use 80% two-stage furnaces, 95-98% two-stage or modulating. Many of our clients will push back against an electric option because of the cost per kWh and it's return. We don't really sell AHU's here as the furnace is what people are used to and most comfortable with. We sell 6 major brands and specifically tailor to each homeowner. Some systems are still furnaces with straight cool, but now some of the models we sell the HP is the same price and we use that and give the customer the option to use that HP feature later if NG prices go up considerably. People love the fact the furnace can heat the space while the HP is defrosting or when the HP hits the set temperature to turn off, they have instant heat from the furnace with variable speed blower and multi-stage gas settings which will run in low nearly 90% of the coldest days. You can run on comfort or efficiency settings. Technology keeps getting better. Now we just need to keep the government out of our business and forcing people to spend crazy money to meet unneeded requirements.
Geothermal system are amazing and most likely the future, but the ROI is not even close to pay for itself in a families lifetime in a home. But some have opted for it, but I don't believe it has hit the price and efficiency it needs to be at before it becomes mainstream.
Do you think the modulating system is worth the premium over a high efficiency two stage if it's only the 'backup' heat source?
this is my setup. the windows and insulation are what kill it for me.
@@Mike_219
Why don't people run the heating system 100% on natural gas?
That's how it is done in Russia and other coldest places on the planet.
I see your point. Nevertheless, if I had the land, I'd go with geothermal. Purely for the off-grid capabilities. I have a bit of a prepper mentality.
✌🏻&❤
@@kevinkarnes4067
I concurr. I want to be 100% off-grid.
my last house had supplemental heating coils on the central furnace. Entire house was electric. It's convenient, but running the heating coils when it gets super cold costs a ton. Last year when we had a week of sub-zero temps, that week cost more than an entire month of heating with the regular heat pump
Thanks for all you do and sharing! Love your channel
I also live here in NH and I have a couple mini-splits myself. I've got my family trained to use them for heat when it's above 25 outside and when it's colder to use the boiler. I've also installed a couple dozen for friends and family and I always tell them that below 25-30 the efficiency really drops, and to figure out what works best in terms of efficiency. Last couple days my boiler hasn't shut off at all it's been so darn cold.
"Efficiency really drops" is technically true, but if you're like me you're running a cold weather minisplit like a Mitsubishi hyper heat, which has 175% efficiency even down to 5 degrees F. . . it's 400% efficient above 47 degrees f, so yes it 'really drops" but it's still much better than 100% efficiency.
@@mikebald I mostly use them for cooling and the heat is a nice bonus. I’m just running some Pioneer units that I bought on Amazon and installed myself. They aren’t designed for extreme cold (hyperheat) but I wouldn’t rely on them as a primary heat source anyway. They actually came in handy today when my boiler decided to quit on me. An expansion tank later and a ton of air purging and I’m back in business. I’ve had excellent luck with the Pioneer units, with the first one I installed almost a decade ago still going strong. That unit was my training, the guy has tons of money and said “if you mess it up, I’ll just buy another one.” I’ve installed a couple dozen and have two at my own house. Been very happy with them.
Some interesting word choices you’ve made here.
First, the heat pumps aren’t “failing.” They are becoming less efficient and less comfortable, due to having to run their defrost cycle.
Second, they don’t become “ineffective” below freezing. Modern heat pumps maintain a standard level of efficiency down to 17 F (AHRI conventional measurement). Properly sized units will be able to hold a set point of 67 F at 20 F outside temperature for about 80% of their runtime, with the other 20% being backed up by the auxiliary heat. In my leaky 1890 home it’s probably a bit more aux in that mix.
It would’ve been nice if you explained why they become less efficient and less comfortable (the defrost cycle). Unfortunately your description or perhaps understanding of heat pump efficiency curves is lacking; granted there’s a bit of calculus involved there. Bottom line is heat pumps will effectively outperform fossil fuels and strips in energy efficiency no matter what the outside temperature is, simply by matter of moving heat instead of creating it.
I would say they are failing to keep the space warm.
I have a dual fuel heat pump system. The furnace is equipped with natural gas to heat the home. It allows me to select the set point temperature to when I want the gas portion to turn on. I currently have set switch from heat pump heating to natural gas at around 25F.
I chose this system because where I live , winters can drop the temperature as low as as 9F to 16F.
Same here. When we built in 2010, I considered geothermal but the cost was expensive. I opted for 6" walls and better insulation (I'd do an even better job of insulating if I built again). I figured retaining the heat (created by NG + HP) was better a better option since it was essentially passive (i.e. no further expense) than the high cost of a geo install. Ironically, 3 of my nearby neighbors have geo, and their cost to operate is greater that my setup. One even had the geo removed. I can't explain why, everyone said that shouldn't be the case. But I'd say the cost is $50- 100 more a month for the geothermal than my setup. I realize there's a lot variables to take into account tho. And in Indiana where I live, electricity is pretty reasonable (15 cents/kWh if I recall correctly). I don't even have a dual stage HP. I have my heat pump cutout at 40F.
I've had no issues with my Mitsubishi Hyper Heat mini split system as my sole heat source in winter. I'm in New York City so it's not super cold, but we just went through a week of not breaking freezing and were mostly in the 20s in the day and teens at night. The system kept us 67-70F without issue. My house is old but it's attached on both sides with newish windows. I will also say my friend in northern NJ installed Mr Cool for his cabin and it also worked very well by itself. I'd say you can do without a supplemental system unless you're in the coldest climates. Overall the system has been MUCH cheaper to run than the gas boiler it replaced.
Thanks for a good concise update. I tried going 100% electric on a high efficiency remodel last year, and wanted the Mitsubishi with an electric strip. Found a supposed Mitsubishi rep in Minneapolis area from their web site come out, and the guy looked at me like I was an alien. Tried a couple more contractors and gave up.
Bottom line, as we all know - most trades are stuck in a mindset of what they know and what they can be sure is profitable. The industry needs to do a much better job educating and supporting the field teams if these products are going to get traction and scale up.
Those back up heat strips use a lot of energy 10-20Kw depending on the size of your house, so if you lose power and have a generator you are going to be using a lot more fuel per hour to heat. Even in Oregon at 15 degrees the back up heat was necessary to heat the house. If you live somewhere where the power goes out a lot keep this in mind.
Yep. I really regret not thinking of putting my heat pump over a propane furnace when I had my house built. Now I'm looking at replacing the system, and the best inverter based systems can't be put on a propane furnace. I'm strongly considering a hot water coil or putting a propane furnace with dampers so it can be shifted over in a power outage.
@@matthewbeasley7765 the Bosch BOVA can be installed on a propane furnace.
10-20Kw /hour?
@@NoGufff It's a multiplication, not division. Watts are Jules/Second. Which is why your electric bill is Kilowatthour (kWh).
Here's another way to think about it. Watts (Power) = Volts * Amps. 10000W / 240V = ~42A. Looking at that, 20kW is an insane number, since you're talking a 100A breaker just for the heat strips.
@@arthurmoore9488 Thanks for the first part, the per hour part really grates on me, especially when people double down on it.
Don't forget in your calculation that heat is a continuous duty load, so it needs a 80% de-rate. A 50A breaker de-rates to 40A, so for 42A a 60A breaker is needed.
Most heat strips over 10kW are on double breakers. Some 15kW will use a 90A, but once you go over 90A, it is a much rarer, far more expensive breaker plus the wire is HUGE.
I have 22kW. It is on two 60A breakers. It has a 10kW on the circuit with the blower, then a second circuit with 12kW of heat. Inside, that's broken down further with two 5kW elements with their own sequencer, and two 6kW elements, also with their own sequencer. (The sequencers are time delay relays so the load doesn't hit all at once.)
I installed a new heat pump last June as well as a major insulation upgrade on my vintage house here on Vancouver Island Canada. I would say I've been very happy with the results, that is until last Friday on Jan 12 when we got hit with a doozy record breaking cold front of -14 C. The thing was running much louder than normal frequently pausing for a few minutes in df mode (meaning line defrost I would guess) The unit was still making heat at -12 C until I decided to switch to my woodstove. The following day, I learned that my hometown had broken a record for power consumption on that Jan12 day. Most likely from all the recently installed HP's which would likely consume way more power than a fan and burner motor of an old style oil heater would. especially hard working bellow zero Heat pumps, all running in their thousands at the same time.
Now imagine if everyone also had an electric car charging in their garage. They would be freezing in their house with no reliable means of transportation to escape the situation. See where making everyone electric will lead?
@@mikee2923 This a fear mongering statement. Everyone is not going to have an electric car immediately. Your statement is equivalent to people saying in the early 1900s that cars will never work. If everyone had a car we don't have the amount of gas stations needed to fill them or the roads to allow them to move.
@@markvalery8632 Well apparently there’s a lot of PO’d people in Chicago with Tesla lawn ornaments because their fabulous electric cars won’t charge in the cold. As far as gas cars go, the government didn’t take everyone’s tax dollars to build the infrastructure for gas powered vehicles. It was the private sector that built the gas stations, pipe lines, refineries and distribution system. I’ve also been doing commercial/industrial HVAC for 32 years and can tell you that heat pumps in a cold climate is a complete waste of money. And I can also tell you that the new “environmentally safe” (R-410A) refrigerants take more power to pump than the old R-22 that worked much better for air conditioning. The R-410A in use now is on the EPA’s hit list. They are going to slash production of it by 50% this year with nothing known at this time to replace it with. Wait until your cheaply built R-410A heat pump/AC unit springs a leak. You’ll be in for a shock when you get the bill. Fear mongering, I think not. I deal with this kinda BS every day.
@@mikee2923 Norway would sure like to hear from you that heat pumps in a cold climate don't work. I'm sure they will listen to a genius like yourself.
@@mikee2923 Government (local, state, and national) built the roads that enabled the use of cars and trucking to grow.
A long time ductless/high efficiency heat pump professional here.
Not all heat pumps are created equal, even from the same manufacturer.
The efficiency drop off that you talk about applies to many heat pumps, but not all. Many modern variable speed hyper heat/ultra heat heat pumps actually only see a marginal drop off in efficiency at low outdoor temperatures. With advances in engineering such as vapor injection, and 2 or 3 stage inverter compressors, a well engineered heat pump can produce incredibly warm supply air temperatures, even in -20F and beyond outdoor temperature. I've seen it, I've felt it.
A significant portion of my career in this field was spent in Canada. Ultra Heat/Hyper Heat heat pumps are wildly popular there, often used with no auxiliary/supplemental heat. I'm not blowing smoke. I'd be happy to chat privately in more detail.
I'd still recommend a secondary heat source, not for supplementing the heat pump, but for redundancy in case of a failure or power outage. A gas or oil furnace or boiler, for example, takes very little electricity to run. A heat pump requires a larger generator.
Here in East Tennesse we mostly use electric back up heat and it has been that way since we first began to use heat pumps in the 1970s. I lived for a while in Atlanta Georgia, there gas heat with electric air conditioning is most popular. However sometimes I did see elecrtic heat pumps mounted on gas furnaces and the gas furnace was wired to be the aux heat unit. As you point out hot water heating is also an option. The great thing about all these back up heat systems is that in the event of a compressor failure, they can be used to heat your home.
I live in a hot state, I have always wondered why people on very cold states do not have as an emergency use a apt style wall heater that is fired by NG or Propane, they do not require any electricity, some are simple to install, single 8" hole in the wall.
Living in Denmark (Europe), we recently had -15C whihc is rare. My Mitsubishi FDCW100VNX-A was installed 5 years ago (January 2019) and have been able to handle all the winters sufficiently.
I usually force it to be on the heating pump only to save money (8 KW heat @ ~2 COP) running on one 240V phase. But it can utilize 2 additional phases to a set of electricity cartridges, running 1.4 KW. This is just short of the 11KW nominated system size.
The system heats 200 square meters, so it is about 40 Watt per sqm @ 8KW and 55 Watt per sqm @ 11KW give or take as some rooms can be a little lower in temperature.
Nominal specs stats that 42C in flow temperature at - 15C outside, is 1.85 COP. With out current electricity price (avg 2 DKK) 1 KW heat is about 1.08 DKK.
If i were to pay for that 1 KW heat in wood, it would be about 2.25 DKK (commerically, dry stored or heat treated) alternatively i could buy it cheaper from a forrest, but would have to collect and store it about 2 years before use.
And ofcourse the time to maintain the fireplace so it runs well and can burn the big logs without additional help.
(forshadowing, i have a fireplace, rated for 6KW)
The heatpump is really great, and i think Mitsubishi did a good job on their cold climate variants. It is definletly easiere than maintaining a wood pellets heater, despite the initial investment in such a system can be cheaper. Ocationally i use my fireplace, but rarely since my wife is very sensitive to smoke particles, so it has to make a clean combustion and be maintained to avoid the useage of fire starts on refilling. The fireplace has the benefit of quickly radiating a lot of energy and is a backup if we hanve any outage.
I once had to get the controler print replaced, took a pair of days, but otherwise no failiures on the heatpump.
Today there are some stricter environmental requirements to the coolant fluid, but the effiicientcy has also increased. Getting a colc climate rated heatpump should be sufficient on its own.
When it comes to economy: We replaced a dying 20KW gas boiler with 50L water tank... no don't ask we just bought the house a year prior. We currently have 350L in total, so it runs more efficient than the original design. At minium 40% reduction in heating bill. Our investment is returned between 6 to 10 years, closer to 10 due to the energy challenges last year, but still way better off than buying gas.
Our situation is similar, but in the UK. We have a Panasonic WH-MDC07J3E5 which is able to deliver 7kWh. In the specs it says that at -15 outside the COP for 45C is 1.76. It will rarely, if ever, get that cold here. Quite cold tends to be 0 degrees where I live. In the manual the COP for 2 degrees is listed. At this temperature we need the water circulating through the radiators to be 35 C, which is a COP of 3.3. More often it tends to be somewhere between 0 and 10 degrees, resulting in a COP of >5 quite often.
It's still early days, but it looks like our bills are about half of what they were when we were using an efficient condensing boiler that was only a few years old.
Rather similar here, our temperatured normally dont go below -10c in winter nights here. (-12 was the min I had the last 20 years). When I switched from gas to air water heatpump my energy costs for the house literally became 30% i combined it with PV however which basically gives us autarky between april and October, so half a year we basically run more or less on our own energy.
the installers in the US dont know how to calculate heating loads and size systems appropriately for the home/climate. The youtuber doesnt understand that heat pumps can be sized to heat virtually any building in any climate. Sadly, the US isnt ready for anything that requires thinking.
Interesting. I live in a temperate zone so probably rarely an issue but I definitely didn't know this when we got heat pumps almost a year ago. I've saved a lot.
I have a Mitsubishi duel fuel ducted system that you are talking about but we just went through a few days here in Wisconsin where temps were on average zero degrees during the day and below that in the evening. The system has only kicked on the natural gas furnace 3 times. Roughly at sunrise and just after. We’ll see what the heat bill looks like this month but the house stayed at the 68 degrees mark through the whole sub-zero stretch. We were very comfortable.
They're failing people because your home was most likely not insulated properly or sealed correctly or your system was undersized or not sized correctly.
@@IvanNedostal Main reasons are cost and space. If it's spread out, it's going to take quite a bit of land, but cheaper to install. Boring down into the ground takes less space, but costs more to do.
I bet those amazon mr cools he installed no longer work
hahaahahahaha... heat from below 30 degree air. yeah right. you must only sell heat pumps
@samthing4thetrack806 all it is, is temperature differential. When the refrigerant goes thru the heating/cooling cycle it will either absorb and dump heat. Sure at certain temperature extremes that gets harder to do and therefore more energy intensive...but it's still true.
@@IvanNedostal In Norway and Sweden 90-95% of all heat pumps installed are air to air heat pumps due to low price and short return of investment. A ground source heat pump is typically 10 times more expensive and return of investment is often longer than the life expectancy of major parts (20+ years). Having lived in houses with air to air heat pumps for more than 25 years without problems (in temperatures comparable to that described in the video) I do not consider myself a fool. We have of course well insulated houses and supplemental heating in case of failure or extra cold days, but that's just common sense. I do not have exact data but a qualified estimate is that my 200 sq meter house gets about 85% of the heating needs from a heat pump. On the coldest days -17c (about 0F) the heat pump still delivers about 4 kW of heat using a little under 2 kW of electricity, compared to 10 kw of heat at 2C (35F).
Heat pumps biggest flaw is that is gets less effective when you need it the most, but this i easily compensated for by correct sizing and/or supplemental heat for the rare extreme condition. If average winter temperature is -5C (23F) but you have one or 2 weeks of -17c (0F) it is more cost effective to size for the average and not the extreme.
But comparing spec sheets and looking at US based videos on YT it seems like the US market now are getting the heat pumps used in nordic countries 20-25 years ago. and like phones or computers, 20 year old technology it not considered the best.
Mr Cool also has gas furnace options to go with the diy kits, I would love to see that option covered.
Watching this video from Maryland (current temp: outside 17F, indoor temp 71F) in a house heated by a ducted Mr Cool heat pump. The system doesn’t have supplemental heat however our ERV has a small inline duct heater to temper incoming air. Our home is nearly airtight and well insulated. The heat pump has performed well so far, we have only noticed slightly longer run times when temps are
I’ve have an older Nordyne heat pump 15 years old. It has aux heat strips if the main unit can’t keep temperature. I do notice an increase in my utility bill. Here in Northern Indiana.
We live in FL and yes it does not get cold here in winter very often. Last night it got down to 26 and our mini splits are doing great. I installed 3 of them last summer and turned off our big central unit. I can see how they could bog down up north in the really cold areas tho. Our units seem to run more in the cold than they do in the summer heat. So far I have not noticed any huge increase in electric use tho. Overall I am extremely happy with the mini splits. We have an 18K in the living room / kitchen area and a 12k in the master bedroom and spare bedroom. Our electric bill has decreased a lot probably because I installed inverter units.
I live in Central Florida. Do you have one condenser with 3 air handler units or 3 condenser units outside? I have seen some nice units on Amazon which I would love. I am thinking about an 18K or higher in our living room and 2 - 9K units in the 2 bedrooms. It would be so nice to have the option of cooling and heating ONLY the rooms we need to when we need it.
@@onecrazywheel Yes you are exactly correct. The best benefit so far has been the ability to isolate rooms which saves on electric overall. My wife sleeps in the guest room a lot because she stays up later than I do. So at night we each adjust the room to our perfect temp. It's glorious. I ordered all 3 SEPARATE units on Amazon and installed them myself. I am an experienced handyman and also worked as an electrician for a few years in the military. They are fairly simple to install and I didn't have any issues. The 18K in our living room cools and heats approx. 675 sq. ft. (25x27) with no problem. Truthfully installing the mini splits was the best thing I have done in this house. Our electric bill has dropped from $350 month down to about $200. A couple of times it was lower than that.
@@dirtwhisperer658 I like hearing this. I took like the idea 💡 of having 3 separate units instead of one condenser. That way if there is a problem it is isolated. I'm a licensed electrician myself and would find it fun to dable in the idea of installing it myself. I have ran the electrical for dozens of units in the past so that would not be an issue for me at our house. Thanks for the reply. God bless 🙏
@@onecrazywheel Lots of videos here on TH-cam for installation. You will need a cheap vacuum pump to do it correctly and so you don't have all kinds of excess copper lines rolled up behind your unit. I got mine on Amazon but Harbor Freight sells almost the exact same one. Good luck!
Great video, very accurate. I like how you mentioned it really depends on your home construction. In my situation I have a single stage heat pump that works reasonably well until about -2C and a 10KW backup heat strip which is ungodly expensive. I also have an 18K BTU gas fire place, which in reality is only about 11K BTU effective. On the really cold days (for my region) that fire place is able to maintain a comfortable temperature inside my home and the backup heat is only needed when trying to increase the temperature. It depends on your home, your climate and your level of comfort.
I bet a museum would pay you good money for your dinosaur
@@andreycham4797 Yeup, but you know what, it’s reliable and paid for. Running the thing into the ground is better than replacing it with 20K worth of new equipment 10 years before it needs to be.
@@JordieG8 I pay 28 cents pro kilowatt , and the system I installed pay for itself in three years. It costed me less than $1900 six years ago
@@andreycham4797 ouch, I pay 9-14 Cent/KW. 🙂 my system is a 36k BTU forced air system. And it’s only 4 years old, if I were to replace it with a variable unit like, I would be looking at 20 Grand to replace it with something of decent quality. It would take a lot more than 3 years to pay for itself as I live in a rather temperate climate.
@@JordieG8 I diy everything it is not easy nor fast but slowly I get some skills and confidence
Happy this info is getting out. I spent 15k on installing mini splits on my rental to then realize they suck as soon as it drops below 50 degrees outside. Good thing i kept the boiler and radiators intact
You should have bought a set that says they heat down to -22°F. The super cheap mini-splits can barely handle +20°F.
Because you had the wrong units installed
It was 4F here yesterday and we were happy and comfortable. Way better than our old hvac with heat strips.
That's great to hear. A lot depends on the model, home age, insulation and air leakage. Sounds like you were in good shape!
As a long term subscriber and a fan of your work, I am concerned about the possible effects of this video. Not because of factual errors but because you have over-generalized the issues on the negative side, thus leaving an unbalanced framing of the applicability of this technology.
My house is in upstate NY, sitting at 1,200 feet altitude and is 16 years old. I installed mini-split heat pumps this summer, including a wall mounted output unit in the dining room.. The existing radiant propane boiler system was left in place as a backup, with the thermostat set 2 degrees below the setting of 73℉.
The last 2 nights the temperature dropped to 8℉. The heat pumps had zero problem keeping the entire main floor at the set temperature and the propane system never came on.
So, please consider that this video, viewed by the uninitiated, could easily discourage people who should be adding heat pumps to not even look into the potential benefits.
Finally, one must also include the environmental benefits of switching to heat pumps as the climate situation breaking (in a bad way) records every year. Thanks.
Did you watch the video before commenting? He acknowledges that nearly all heat pumps will function down to 0f air temp. The issue is that they lose efficiency. So you may suffer on your electric bill if very cold temps persist and you don't use natural gas or other backup.
At the bottom end of their working temperature range, heat pumps are probably not much better than space heaters in terms of efficiency.
People can get through moderate winters with just space heaters, but they may regret it when the bill comes.
As with any heat pump, you need a back up source for the few days per year that it gets too cold to keep up with heat loss. As far as efficiency, the pressures go down with temps so the unit uses less electricity so the cost goes down as well. The real problem as I mentioned above is that the heat pump might not be able to keep up with loss. With SEER ratings being 20 or over, the savings, even using back up heat quite amazing. We use out back up heat around 3 days per year along with the heat pump. The increased cost per year is miniscule. Using mini splits we heat 2 homes on our property plus all other electrical divices combine for an average monthly electric bill of around $175. That includes electric hot water, lights, electric range, electric clothes dryer, computers, tvs etc. If I used the back up heat all winter that annual average goes up well over double or even triple. So don't be fooled by scare vids like this one. Heat pumps are the largest selling heating device in Canada. That should tell you something.
Installers are screwing people everyday by sizing the units at it's 100% BTU rated capacity. As it gets closer to 0f the rated capacity drops off to the range of like 80%; the installers need to size the units based on the 80% rating. Guess that concept is a bit too complicated for some hvac techs. I'm glad I had a good installer, and it sounds like you did too. . . sucks so many people are getting hosed.
It tells me that you don’t have access to natural gas. It is by far the cheapest way to heat a home other than cutting free wood for a wood burner. Unless it’s a geothermal system heat pumps are useless in cold climates. An air to air heat pump is nothing more than an air conditioner that runs backwards. In other words it’s trying to cool the already cold air outside. When it gets below freezing, the outdoor coil will begin to freeze. After a period of time it will have to defrost which is accomplished by turning back into an air conditioner, removing the heat from the house to melt the ice built up on the coil. If you don’t have backup heat, you’re running air conditioning during this process. So you are using your back up heat source during each defrost cycle which is usually every 30-90 minutes of run time on an air to air heat pump.
@@mikee2923 Oh, it's you again. Gas is a terrible pollutant in production, distribution, and burning. That's why people are turning to heat pumps. Couple with renewable electricity, zero greenhouse gases. Due to the bizarre grid and rate structure here in Texas, my 100% electric home runs on 100% wind and solar. And I get that electricity for less than 8.5 cents kw/hr.
Thank you. This explains a lot for me
What is that efficiency in terms of KWh and btu and cost. It's not doing a 1:4 conversion is it in freezing temperatures?
This is exactly what has happened to us during this cold spell in the Midwest where it dropped into the negative temperatures. I have a Fujitsu system and it's a mini split very similar to what was described here in the video. I have an upstairs unit with the blower and a basement unit with the blower that heats the main level. The system essentially froze up during all of this cold weather and luckily the house is completely remodeled with brand new insulation and efficient windows and I was able to heat the house(approx. 1600 sq ft) essentially with two larger space heaters until our HVAC guy could come check out the system. Today was about 40° and when the HVAC guy got here, the system had thawed out enough that it was putting out warm air again and was heating the home like normal. This video was very good information. I am a renter, but very good friends with my landlord, and even he was a little confused about the system itself and how it functions because it's different than what we're used to.
If the outdoor unite ices up or is covered in snow you're done. In colder climes they usually mount them at least 3ft off the ground and usually with a small shelter to keep sleet and freezing rain off. Provided that and a well insulated and sealed house these newer units that function down to -20°F can generally maintain a decent interior temp even in those conditions just don't expect them to get up to temp any time soon if the power goes out and it drops to 40f or lower indoors.
If designed and sized correctly especially in new construction, a heat pump can keep up on winter minimum days without supplemental heat. I’d still install electric elements or a gas dual fuel set up just as a backup though
If it is sized to keep up on minimum days - is it oversized most of the time? I run auxiliary heat only when necessary (in the teens and below).
@@jdmather5755Many modern multi split heat pumps are variable speed and can ramp up or down depending on the OA temp and heat/cooling calls. There is definitely a sweet spot in regards to efficiency but I’d much rather oversize for winter minimum than undersize and be cold. It’s not a bad strategy to rely on supplemental for your coldest days but I prefer it as just a backup. Mitsubishi has free software called diamond designer which allows you to calculate efficiencies and capacities at different design conditions
@@ryanmarks8503 Even with the ability to ramp down output, it can be tough to size correctly for areas that have a need for AC _and_ sub-zero heating, like the Mid-Atlantic. The BTU demand for heating on those cold days is usually much, much higher than AC, just due to the outdoor/indoor temp delta. For older houses, you might also run into issues with insufficient duct size (usually return) to support the 200-300CFM extra each ton requires when upsizing.
I am happy to see commercial applications make it to the consumer market! Reheating chilled air for a specific area
Super helpful. I'm looking at heat pumps for my older house in NH.
NC a lot of us still have supplemental gas/strips.
Very interesting, I always forget that you guys do get a lot of temperature swings, and based on this week proably very good insurance
There’s really 3 climates in NC. Mountain, piedmont, coastal.
Running 100% gas on both HVAC systems for heat but I think next unit will be dual fuel. Run the heat pump down to about 40 degrees depending on current utility rates then switch to gas. If natural gas prices plummeted, adjust as needed to heat at the lowest possible cost. We get some cold at nights in NC but most of the winter is milder.
Dual fuel systems have way more problems than a straight ac and furnace. I would seriously reconsider the rabbit hole you want to jump into.
I love my dual fuel system. Only a few years old, but zero problems thus far. Mine is set up to run heat pump down to 35 degrees. If I increase thermostat setting more than 2 degrees, the gas furnace kicks in. Heat pumps, in my opinion, provide a more gradual heat.
The only difference between a heat pump and an AC, is a reversing valve.
@@MrOpenGL also logic to defrost the unit
@@MrOpenGL And the extra metering device and an expansion tank and the defrost board and it's lifespan is much shorter than straight a/c because it runs all year long
Thanks for the video, you're right.
The trick is PV + HP's.
I installed two Senville 12k units myself. They work down to -22F but like you said the efficiency does drop but they basically still carry the house. Since I already had oil in I use it on those days when it's very cold.
The beauty of these HP's is that they easily carry the house for three seasons of the year heating/cooling in our Catskill NY mountains area which saves us quite a bit on energy costs. I could install another 12k unit but I think I'll leave it where it is for now especially since we already have a high efficiency wood stove we can light on sub zero nights too. (Living in the rural mountains it's always a good idea to have battery backup, PV and more than one heat source, we do get power outages here.)
It's those fall days when it's 40 - 45F out and the house is toasty warm using very little energy, that would have killed us with oil. Right now it costs about $125 a month to heat and run the house, freezer, well pump, tankless hot water, fridge, etc. in the dead of winter, we also charge the EV. Our PV is paid off so think of it as offsetting the cost of lower efficiency with the PV. On sunny days we produce enough to heat the house and charge the car which only charges on excess when the whole house has been powered. That's possible even in the middle of winter.
I think the key is to have PV combined with the HP's so even the lower efficiency times aren't killing you which our 19k of PV does even on overcast days. We really don't get much charging on those days, fortunately we have enough range on the EV so we can run several days without charging it. We are retired, some people won't have that option.
During the summer we produce so much energy that it offsets out winter heating and charging costs considerably because we can run off grid and sell a couple of MWh back to the grid for several months of the year.
Southern Ontarian here going through first winter with a ducted heat pump + auxiliary backup. I have CT monitors that tell me the live and historical current and thus power draw for the heat pump (outdoor unit) + blower and aux (indoor unit). I find the outdoor temperature at which the aux heat makes more sense from an efficiency point of view to be about -20C (-4F). Above that the heat pump is more efficient
For supplemental heating those Chinese Diesel heaters are great for emergency purposes. They saved my butt when my furnace went out in subzero weather a couple winters back. For about $550 I built in a backup heat system that os over 40,000btu, reliable, on demand, run off readily available diesel which is stored outdoors, can run off 12v or 110ac, and I even recover exhaust waste heat from them with steam radiators. Would recommend
Do you have a link for the system you went with?
I have the same. Originally bought for emergency backup, but trying to lower my oil bill supplementing with the heater. Tons of heat & uses very little fuel. Small solar charges the 12v battery.
Another easy way to heat a house is with a Kerosene heater. Some of the Kerosene heaters require no power, and a $150 to $200 unit puts out 24,000 BTU. Kerosene can be hard to find. The external exhaust of the Chinese diesel heaters are nice.
@matthewbeasley7765 I just use 2 Vevor brand self contained (8kw) heaters, and custom built the entire system on a weatherproof cart. Used insulated tubing for both pulling air from in the home and for the heated air in a custom window "gasket" that also has a 6 plug outlet. 2 deep cycle 100ah marine batteries, a 1500 watt generator with ducted exhaust into a car muffler at the bottom of the cart (adds supplemental heating to the whole system)
A 2000 watt inverter connected to the batteries, 2 cheap but good chinese battery chargers, and a 25 gallon diesel can for extra supply. Its a fully self contained system I could sell for around $1200 bucks (which i've been offered for it) I also duct the exhaust from the diesel heaters to the car muffler at the bottom of the cart which recovers heat for the unit which is enclosed by piece of folded sheet metal with securement pins.
@cryptickcryptick2241 Yes I have those, unfortunately the fumes get to me, cant stand the smell of kerosene fumes because of an old job I had where we used those heaters
My Daikins havent struggle at all to heat the house down to 0 degrees in Maine. 3600 square foot house build in 2003. I leave the heat pumps at 70, oil furnace will kick in if needed but its not too much.
Here in northern Canada we just went through a few days of -41°C (-41.8°F) and our heat pump with its large buffer tank and supplemental electric boiler worked as expected, our house was perfectly comfortable and warm. I have to emphasize that we renovated and greatly improved the insulation and that is the key for any heating system. If the house isn’t well insulated then you’re just heating the great outdoors. Don’t blame the heat pump for poor insulation and air leakage, any heating system would have a difficult job keeping up then.
It's 9F this morning in my part of Maine. I woke up to my new heat pump/mini split in defrost mode. I find when it's in the teens or below, it spends a lot of time in defrost. I crank up my propane heater on these days. I already had the propane heater due to all the power outages we have here in the winter, so I didn't trust an electric powered heater as my primary heater anyway.
Firewood or pellet stove
Both great options
When we lived in Beltsville, MD we had oil heat and it was alwaus plenty warm and not too expensive. We lived there for three years and only went through on tank of oil. When that heater came on it warmed the whole house to a comfortable temperature in 30 minutes or less.
I’m in south Texas and we did get below twenty degrees at night. I have a heat pump in my garage and it did struggle to warm up the area. I simply turned on a space heater and it did the trick. I had to keep my newborn pups warm during them cold nights.
I'm in the middle of the country and most of us here avoid heat pumps. They just don't offer a nice warm environment. I have natural gas heat and would not consider anything else.
I agree with you.
I live in Missouri with 3 minsplits. They are amazing. We are all electric for everything. Electric bill is 70-90 dollars per month except in super cold where it goes up to 150.
I have a dual system heat pump.
When the temperature drops below fifty, it uses gas to heat the house. Above fifty the heat pump will use the electricity it works great.
That is a great idea! Wow I like that design
Wouldn't it be cheaper to run the heat pump down to 40? Switch over to gas a 40.
@@BrianNC81 yes, when natural gas was over eight dollars it would have been cheaper to run the heat pump down to 40° but since they raise the price on electricity it’s much cheaper now to use the natural gas. Plus, the heat pump does not put out hot air. It’s cool air, the natural gas puts out hot air, heats the house, much faster and keeps it warm.
@@paullopresti9568 we have two gas furnaces, was thinking next system doing dual fuel. In NC so a lot of our winter is mild
Most heat pumps are extremely efficient below 50. Seems like a waste of gas but I'm sure you've run the math for your area.
I have a standard HVAC with backed up heating coils for the main floor and basement and then mini splits for the two upstairs bedrooms. It makes it easy for everybody to have their own comfort level. Plus a wood stove that will pretty much take care of everything.
Glad to see that a large voice is helping to spread real world information
Don't every buy this brand mine broke within a month after installing. The coil had a major leak. MrCool sucks
Justin Trudeau needs to see this video.
One option to consider with a concealed-duct mini split for a small space, like an apartment or a single room, is an RV diesel heater. They're easy to add to existing ductwork and #2 heating oil's pretty cheap if you're only using it for supplemental heat instead of primary, plus those things take up basically no space and make quite a bit of heat for the sub-$100 purchase price. Either that or go oldschool and get a good kerosene heater, cheapest supplemental heat that doesn't require rebuilding a chunk of the house or having gas hookups, just make sure to keep a window cracked and the bathroom exhaust fan turned on.
Think the title of video is a little misleading. I have two ‘arctic’ mini splits that work great so far to -10° but are definitely using more power and able to maintain 70° set point. These units lose efficiency but are NOT failing, meaning broken and no longer working.
that all green energy junk is really ridiculous - for heat pumps you need a electric heater, for solar/wind system you need a battery backup or just regular coal/nuclear energy when there is no sun, for electric cars you need a fuel electric generator ect etc LOL people, wake up!
bingo!
First :3
We have similar weather in Ontario Canada. We heat and cool our house 10 months with a heat pump and use a gas furnace for those extra cold couple of months. It works great and I love having the gas heat when it’s really cold.
5:30 so i am in MA. We added the heat pump separate from our existing forced hot water system. When it gets cold out, somewhere around 30 degrees it switches from heat pump to forced hot water. Keep the house at 72 all winter without issues. To do it again, or doing it new i would do the heat pump but appreciate knowing that some form of supplemental is going to be necessary
The idiots we vote into office have somehow decided that we can just wear more clothes during the coldest months. I disagree. If you are in the USA, you should as your politicians some really hard questions about what they have in store for us when it comes to home heating.
@flyingjeff1956 Our politicians have in store for us exactly what their major donors want. You can ask all the hard questions you want, but that's the answer. I disagree with you choice of who to identify as the idiots. Never underestimate the power of stupid people who vote in large groups.
Great video about heat pumps and very timely. We recently installed a heat pump and connected our boiler as supplemental/aux. We are patiently learning how the system works. The fan runs allot longer compared to the old boiler because it does not provide the same heat output. Can you make a video on your thermostat configuration and settings. I think this is very important to understand. Great content, love the channel.
This was very informative.
EXCELLENT point driven home for the need of a supplemental heat source in harsher winter climates. THANK YOU!
great video. very helpful info
In Oregon we have government incentives on Extended Capacity Heat Pumps. Which requires that the capacity of the heat pump at 17F must be at least 85% of its capacity at 47F. These type of heat pumps will work in pretty cold weather. The list of approved Extended Capacity Heat Pumps is about 4 pages, though I'm sure they cost more than the standard heat pumps.
I live in central Wisconsin and had a heat pump put in last year along with a new furnace and pellet stove. I have to say the heat pump was well worth the money. Even with it being set to turn off at 35 degrees and the propane furnace kicks on. We normally fill at 500 gallon propane tank at least 4 times if not more a winter. An now we have only filled it once’s so far this year and went down from burning over 4 tons of pellets down to 3 tons. That’s thousand plus dollars of savings already this year
Mine kept working down to our all time record low last week in my 19 year old house without supplemental heat. Probably not the most efficient but it worked.
All good points, sir. Ive been involved with mitsu for 20 years and its great equipment. One thing I would like to add to your contractor comments: Hire a professional! Any contractor worth his salt will 100% consider the home's heat loss and will recommend the necassary equipment to heat the space under worst case scenario. Also, every manufacturer I have ever dealt with will publish the product data with the BTU output at certain temperatures. Even your hydronic coil has a BTU chart with water temps and BTU output. Most homeowners are not privy to this information, but if the contractor is not covering those bases upfront then they are not qualified to sell or install these.
I've got 3 minisplits in Wisconsin. All 3 have operated thru this cold stretch. I've noticed nothing other than they run more. 2 of mine are rated to -13F, and one is 5F and even the 5F model was operating below 0F. I also have a woodstove, but i haven't used it nearly as much this winter.
In Canada with a dual fuel Heat pump and natural gas furnace setup. Based on basic calculations I set the switch to around -7deg C to use furnace, but above that heat pump does keep the house warm.
I've got a large house with 2 heat\cool pumps in Florida, and today with our temps in the 30's, it's ok. However, we lose power a LOT, due to Random Storms, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, iced power lines, etc. Without a fireplace, and my propane heaters, my 91yr parents would freeze. My generator is able to handle a small wall unit, but not two 5 ton units. I've just seen a liquid paraffin heater, and wonder if that would work. I grew up with a kerosene heater, and aside from starting it outside to stop the bad smell, it worked well. My oil lamps work well with liquid paraffin, and these heaters look interesting. Especially since storing so much gasoline for the generator is a pain... I'd love to go to solar, but the battery would have to be HUGE! Thanks for explaining about these systems, I've been thinking of installing one or two in my Western NC Mountain farm house. I'm building from scratch, and need good ideas to be as independent from the grid as possible! I'm not working with as much money as I thought I would have...
Kerosene heaters have killed thousands of people over the years. Either from the carbon monoxide or knocking them over and igniting the house. Kerosene is no longer cheap, now selling by the gallon for maybe $15.
From Thailand, where mini split doesn’t need a heater function. Main problem with these units are Evap coil life expectancy is not long enough. Majority leaks before 10 Yrs. Can’t compared to duct system that lasted longer
Canadian here with a 1980’s house. I have a heat pump working down to -15*C (5*F) with no issues. Any lower and I have my electric heating aux heat come on.
Using an ecobee, I can fine tune how and when the aux comes on. So far no issues at all. However I would not feel comfortable running a heat pump alone with no aux heat installed.
The manufacturer has tested efficiency data down to -15*C and extrapolated efficiency data down to -32*C which is why I chose that temp setting value.
if it is one of those cold climate models, you should run it down to -20c at least considering your backup is electric -> as long as it has a cop much above 1, it saves compared to aux heat. aux heat can just supplement instead of take over completely.
For us in NH, we're still saving money compared to oil and even pellets. We did have to buy a wall convection space heater for a bathroom that wasn't getting enough air circulation. Also lucky that we changed our electrical supplier so we're paying half what we did a year ago.
From my experience, this video is accurate. I had a heat pump for 10 years in a house I bought in Iowa. It was built in the mid-70s when energy shortages were an issue in the U.S. and gas was shunned. I had the option during those cold seasons to use resistance heat instead of the heat pump, but in that case, the energy price went way up. I'm in a natural gas heated house now, and there's no comparison to the cold place I used to live in.
Apples and oranges. Two different houses, even.
My Concord 4HP17L has been more than adequate in NE Ohio so far. Emergency heat has kicked in a few times but the temperature outside has been so low that even a gas furnace would be having a difficult time keeping up. The fact that I don’t have to pay a $43 connection fee just to have a gas meter turned on more that makes up for the extra electricity used by the emergency heat strips.
Also, I’m at about 5.5¢/kwh. It’s basically free at this point.
Living in a place where -20's are common throughout winter we know about the limits on heat pumps and the concept of supplemental heat sources. Ground loop heat pumps are also gaining in popularity here as well. They're not nearly as cheap or easy to install, but they work efficiently even in the coldest weather.
We have a mini split (12kbtu) for our house, its been working amazing even in -10f temps here in Idaho! We do have a very small and well insulated (closed cell foam) house. The power usage does go up a lot once it gets below about 15f though. And so far our other new EG4 8kbtu solar mini split has been doing great for our little office building! And its been getting down to 0f this winter.
And also side note, both of our mini splits have electric resistive heating backups also. Both have been off since we got them though.
What model mini split has resistance backup?
@@chrisE815 EG4 9K AC-DC Solar Mini-Split
So far for the bout 2 months i've had it setup it's been working great! Although now it has an error and I haven't been able to check it since i'm out of town right now.
Honestly I don't know anything about the resistive heater since i've never had to use it before. Even with the so far down to 0f outside temps the only issue was with rime ice on a screen over the outside coil, the screen was easy to take off.
Its definitely a new product though.
@@chrisE815 And also the other mini split in the house I actually don't remember what it is lol
We had a friend install it about 2 years ago. We just payed for whatever he thought was best for us since he is an HVAC tech. And so far been perfect! Used it in -8 temps that we know of and didn't have any issues with heating. And cooling does great too. Although the smart controls are pretty bad lol
Once I find out what it is, if I remember I will reply to this comment with it.
i have the Senville 9000 Btu in my basement. it works great year round except we had one day that dropped about -10 last year. it did its best to maintain 72 but once it dropped down to 68 i kicked the boiler on. mine is listed for +5 outside temperature. overall its fantastic i got one out in my garage just to keep it above freezing.
I just moved to the gulf coast. My house here has "heat strips" aka, EMHEAT on the thermostat. When I got my whole house generator, that was part of the deciding factor to get a 26kw unit, everything in my house is electric so I needed the extra power to run it if needed.
We installed 2 mini splits, and we use them most of the year in ME, but sometimes we run oil heat, but only on the coldest days. We don't find the electric bill to be too high.
My installer installed a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat and sized it based on the 5 degree BTU reduced output. Running without supplemental heat and the heat pump system is keeping the house very comfortable down below 0 outside temperature. It helps if the install is done properly.
It's not rocket science, but many contractors are clueless.
I love my split heat pump. I have had it for over 10 years. Winter temps are usually in the 30s to 40s here. When it gets colder, I put on another layer, and all is good.