Why The Saiyans NEVER Got Zenkais Fighting The Androids
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video @LSMMIKE explains Why The Saiyans NEVER Got Zenkais Fighting The Androids. Featuring the Dragon Ball Z Cell Saga Anime and Manga.
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You’re a theory is flawed…. Sayians seems to not sense energy outside of the ones that live on earth…. If the zen ki boost who’s is a result of staying in biology and it’s impossible for them to feel the energy because most of them do scouters
Hi Mike, I have one question. Vegeta stated on Namek that Zen ki Boosts don't happen when the damage is self inflicted. That is why he asks Krillin to blast a hole in him. However, when Goku trained in his spaceship on his way to Namek, you stated that he got Zen ki Boosts by training and use the Sensu Beans whenever he was on the brink of death. Is this a plothole, or are there other explanations behind this?
“The stronger my opponent is, the more my own strength increases.”
*Gets his biggest zenkai boost after letting Krillin nearly kill him. 🙄
😂 maybe relative to his suppressed strength, Krilen was a lot stronger. The zenkai Gene prolly couldn't tell the difference lol
Exactly. Zenkai boosts are just BS toriyama thought of them realized it would be too much to keep in the story. There is 0 consistency
Nah that was his second biggest zenkai, his biggest one was the one right b4 (went from less than 30k according to the Ginyu Force to more than 530k against 1rst form freezer)
Or possibly he could still feel the "pressure" of Frieza's energy. Also he was healed during Frieza's last transformation, and so wouldn't have felt his final form just yet, only level 3. But that's just a theory lol.
Ive always felt that the reason Goku and Vegeta got so big a zenkai boosts was because their bodies werent used to the method of healing they used. Goku was used to the healing from a senzu and Vegeta from the healing pods, their bodies are used to the affects. However on Namek, Vegeta was healed by a senzu and got a zenkai boost from below recoome to first form frieza and also healed by Dende to get a boost from first form frieza to possible form three Frieza. Goku got a major boost from being in the healing pod which made him on parr with a supressed fourth form Frieza. This theory probably falls apart when Goku is healed by Trunk's medicine and Dende later on.
According to the Zamasu arc, zenkais simply go away when Saiyans get used to their body. Goku Black gets zenkais even after unlocking SSJ because he isn't used to the body.
That explains the Buu Saga battle powers.
Because it wasn't their plot armor anymore
This the real reason but let me dream 😆
Alway's the real reason for everything.
I'll tell you what horrible writing is though Vegeta deserved that win in Resurrection F that wipl alway's make me mad.
@@GoofyPoptartwell Goku lost to a ray gun
@@GoofyPoptartthe movie or Arc
Zenkai isn't a plot armor
I always came to believe the Zenkai was a biological thing to help a Saiyan achieve Super Saiyan. But once they achieve it. It’s just not as prevalent anymore
Super Saiyan pretty much takes the zenkai over as their survival mechanism and almost disappears or won't make a difference against a stronger fighter,when you can evolve to new levels of ssj there isn't much biological need for the zenkai anymore.
@@justinarzola4584 That’s interesting actually. What if SSJ2 and SSJ3 are the evolved versions of the Zenkai once a Saiyan becomes a Super Saiyan? Like Zenkais get converted into the ability to advance into those forms?
Zenkais are a way to get an "old potential" in their blood
and in their blood, all Saiyans have the might of a Super Saiyan that courses through their veins
The Zenkai will get them closer to the old legend, or also get them closer to an old potential they had before but forgotten by not training.
@@justinarzola4584 tell that to cell he get one and borly get one
@@ssjgotenks2009 Your right about broly,in cell's case I believe he got most of his Zenkai DNA prior to everyone became a super sayain( Gero didn't collect any data or DNA on namek),the only ssj he had data on was trunks when he beat cold and frieza.
It's amazing the mental gymnastics we have to go through to fix the real problem: Toriyama forgot about it. 😂
Very true lol
The Zenkais never went away. Just because they're not mentioned anymore doesn't mean they're not happening. Zenkais just never gave you a huge power boost. It seemed like they did in the Saiyan and Namek sagas because we had never seen power levels like that before, but by the time Freeza's final form is introduced, Zenkai boosts just aren't enough to propel the protagonists up to the major villains' levels.
Unless it needs to be lol. It’s all plot
They are mentioned in DBS, and it's stated they go away as the Saiyan continuously trains and gets used to his body.
@@TonyMishima92 Yeah? And when is that? I saw the series and don't remember that being stated once. What episode and timestamp?
@@pc_buildyb0i935 Chapter 20, DBS manga.
@@TonyMishima92 1- Trunks hasn't been training with them and hasn't seen them fight yet, he doesn't know what their limits are yet
2- fighters are constantly breaking limits, it's literally the point of Z. All Trunks says is "they /probably/ aren't able to power up by reviving themselves from the brink of death because they pushed their bodies to the absolute limit".
So, then I take it neither Goku nor Vegeta get any stronger from this point forward?
Of course they do. We also see them get their asses kicked, and then come back immediately stronger in the same fight.
They are definitely still getting Zenkais, they're just not as big or meaningful as they used to be
If the Zenkais are based on the Ki of their enemy and "scale up" to that, why did Vegeta expect to get a big Zenkai boost from allowing Krillin to injure him on Namek when Krillin was far weaker than him?
Because he sensed Freeza’s 3rd Form. His body would’ve reacted to Freeza… the strongest enemy, not Krillins.
It’s like how Goku’s body reacted to Vegeta. Even though Goku was comparable to Vegeta at that time, it was MUCH weaker because of Ginyu.
@@incarnation_of_immortality3422I’m sorry but this shit seems like a cope explanation to cover up plot holes and forgotten plot points
@@incarnation_of_immortality3422 ... the old Saiyans could _not_ sense ki either, at all, they needed scouters badly
Why did they get Zenkais then?
Why didn't Goku get a Zenkai after sensing Kamiccolo and Cell while nearly dying?
Kuririn's power level was lower but the kienzan focused enough energy onto a small area that it overwhelmed vegeta's ki, like How Piccolo was weaker overall than radditz, but his attack was stronger.
@@barccy
Except the Kienzan wasn’t used.
Now that you mention it, it’s weird that they never got a noticeable boost in this saga when Cell got a major boost when he came back from the explosion.
Yeah, I believe the zenkai boost became so minuscule after the saiyans obtained SSJ. It's just so little when the power level is so large. Zenkai's happen, it's barely noticable as the power level is so large vs prior. I hope I'm understood
Makes sense
I had that thought too,the zenkai is basically a survival mechanism when they are at base but when they reach ssj the gap is lowered and becomes their new mechanism so they need new forms of training like the time chamber to make significant gains that widen that gap.
He mentioned that very thing, @19:05
I was gonna say that too but even that line of thinking doesn't hold up bc the boosts have always been proportionate to the sayians power at the time. So it still shoulda been a massive increase. For example sayian sage vegeta has a power level of 18k. After a zenkai from nearly dying he has a power level of 23k. What ur saying implies that the power level will always be that same amount of math. But when goky has a base power of 90k he gets fucked up near death heals and has a power of over 1M. So during the androids where they should have power levels in the hundred millions there zenkais shoulda added levels on that level especially when near death bc the boost is more dramatic the more near death they are. In fact cell even gets a zenkai boost when fighting Gohan and it showed it was very significant so the sayians shoulda got a zenaki boots on that level too it woulda been consistent. Toriyama just didn't want it to happen til that time again
Makes sense but in non canon movie, like the Broly come bac (movie 10), the legendary ssj get an huge zenkai.
I think the reason why it doesn’t seem like the Saiyans didn’t get any Zenkai boosts was because it wasn’t really needed to be stated as it wasn’t a focused plot point in the story like in the Frieza Saga. It still happened(in my opinion anyway) but it didn’t need to be stated as we all know that’s what happens to Saiyans when they recover.
On a related note, I wonder why training sometimes has a dramatic impact on power levels, but other times not. It seems rather arbitrary, as the plot demands. For example, when Vegeta first used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he went from being weaker than the Androids all the way up to more powerful than Semi-Perfect Cell. Yet, after doing the same thing again to prepare for Super Perfect Cell, he barely got stronger, if at all. Furthermore, he was even stronger by the Majin Buu Saga. Similarly, training with certain people seems to have a more significant impact than it should. Their method of training being different helps with this, but it shouldn't make someone 10+ times stronger than before.
Because there was nothing to Sense
true
the honest reason, no bullshit, is that Toriyama forgot all about them until after he had already made Cell...at that point he was like "eh fuck it, they'll never notice anyway"...but we did. You can't escape us Toriyama!
Toriyama is beyond your reach and he has escaped you.
Goku got zenkai boosts from training alone with gravity? Maybe their zenkai boosts were minimal? I blame toriyama
You also have to take into account the fact Gohan’s spirit, in the original timeline, was crushed by losing his dad, Piccolo, Krillin, and most of his friends and acquaintances, at such a young age. Having to train mostly alone, realizing in the meantime he wouldn’t even get close to save the Earth from the cyborgs, must have affected his improvement as a warrior, despite being a fierce and committed one.
Losing his father should have made him stronger not weaker.
This has always been backwards to me idk
@@TirkableLight that would absolutely only make him weaker
@@QGUUthen you've never lost someone. It does weaken you. It hardens you in some ways but only makes you colder and hate the world more
@@unity7257 really because Goku said the pain of loss makes you stronger
...who said they didnt? It just didnt make them strong enough to destory the androids including 16. They immediately went into the chamber after this. Also technically vegeta only really broke his arms. He was still even able to attack 18 prior to the knockout.
16:15 - I really like this explanation on Ki sensing. I always think of it like a bat's sonar, by pulsing their ki outwards and letting it bounce off another living being. Which is why they can sense living beings but not objects.
17:32 - I agree with your take as I've been thinking the same for a while now. The biggest indicator to me of why I think this lies in Goku's final Zenkai on namek. How he jumped from a power level of 90K to 3 Million coincides with the greater power Frieza was displaying with his forms, Vegeta & Gohan's Zenkai's, and Piccolo's fusion. Meaning Goku to fight the biggest threat in Frieza, probably increased his ki amount to adjust to the rising enemies power.
It doesn’t make sense tbh, it’s just plot. Goku didn’t get that huge jump because of sensing Frieza or whatever, it’s because that’s what the plot needed.
@@QGUU why does this explanation not make sense to you because from my perspective it covers pretty much everything we are shown in the Manga ie if you can sense your opponent you're zenkai will put you within spitting distance of them powerwise but if you can't sense a power higher than your own then your fat out of luck when it comes to your zenkai ( 30%)
Makes sense, especially since fighting beerus training with whis how their bodies keep changing to match their opponents
Keep up the good work 🙏
It doesn’t lol. This is just tryna plug holes tbh
Introducing the Zenkai Boosts was a poor decision on Toriyama’s part to begin with. If he wanted to find a way to keep the characters relevant and the plot moving, he should have just condensed the disparity between Vegeta and the new villains. Narratively, it would have made MORE sense for the higher echelon members of Frieza’s forces to be equal to Saiyan Saga Vegeta (like Dodoria, Zarbon, Recoome, etc.). That way, Krillin and especially Gohan have a more realistic goal post to strive towards.
Y’all listening to Mike’s videos has reminded me of how god damn much I love the Cell Saga. Weirdly, the GBA game “The Legacy of Goku 2” and DBZ Budokai for the gamecube was how I experienced the story until I watched DBZ Kai later in life.
It really feels like many of the characters had their time in the sun. Several curtain drops throughout the arc and a fantastic, and arguably, definitive end point for the series (even though obviously there was a lot more still to come.)
Not to mention one of the GREATEST character themes of all time.
Anyway, GOATED arc and great thoughts on this topic! Thank you, Mike, for putting in all your hard work!
The idea that someone built machines specifically made for killing saiyans very efficiently is so awesome
zenkai boost doesnt mean you match your opponent, otherwise it would be even more broken. if the gap between gohan and 17 was so high maybe the boost wasnt enough. even using the theory of matching your opponent, he would have been half the strength of 17 + training. it took goku 3 years to get to get below 17's level, so weaker gohan + zenkai boost + 1 year of training wouldnt get even close. specially considering that both androids fight together.
zenkai boost matching your opponent just cant be. kid gohan after getting beaten by frieza could defeat frieza? or goku after fighting cell and giving up, he could have just keept fighting, be almost dead then senzu for that zenkai and insta win.
I always just figured it raise their power by a certain amount instead of it multiplying. Making the zenkai to miniscule to really make a noticeable difference later on in the series once they hit a certain power level like super saiyan. But i never really kept up with power levels so im probably wrong.
Haven't watched the video yet but if I had to guess as to WHY they didn't get zenkai boosts against the androids, I'd say it'd have to be because they couldn't sense the androids power.
The Zenkai boost is attributed to the Saiyan biology, particularly their adaptability. The Zenkai boost is attempting to make them slightly stronger than whatever was strong enough to put them down.
If you think Frieza 2nd form is his max and he kicked your ass, you might have a certain bald man mortally wound you so a certain green kid can heal you in hopes that your Zenkai will push you higher than Frieza's 2nd form so you can win but then you find you he has a 3rd and 4th form so your Zenkai which made you strong enough to maybe deal with a 2nd form Frieza suddenly didn't do enough.
But then comes these androids. they beat the shit out of you but you cannot sense their power; your adaptive body has NO CLUE what strength you need to be boosted to... So it doesn't.
TL;DR: Zenkai is a Saiyan adapting to a stronger opponent who just kicked their ass. If their body can't sense how strong the opponent is, it won't boost, no zenkai
EDIT:
Cooler: "you had better answer that phone...
...because I FUCKING called it!"
😂😂😂
Toriyama often gets bored or sees the limits of ideas he brings up, so he just kinda drops them. Zenkai boosts is one of them. They were very important on Namek, then explicitly brought back with Super Perfect Cell, and for the rest, fans have to fill in the blanks in their minds. Another one is Goku and Gohan remaining Super Saiyan when calm (which is artistically not a very good idea, as never seeing their base forms again makes the Super Saiyan form less eventful).
What against tambourine did Goku get one after being beat by him the first time
Old video but I’m curious how did Vegeta receive a boost when krillian blasted him? Also, how can Gohan get a Zen kai when you can’t sense to android power
The only explanation i can think to explain why the saiyans dont need to sense energy and the androids not having ki results in no boost is that the zenkai boost itself can sense the ki, whether the saiyan could or not, and it raises to match the ki. Not necessarily the strength or power level. And the saiyans assumed it matched the power level because that's what also is observed in the outcome. Thats why strength, power level, and ki are almost used interchangeably several times in the series, despite each being different in some way. That could explain why when fighting an android with no ki, the zenkai boost increases by 0, assuming it is now strong enough from that. But then the saiyans are confused why they didnt get stronger since the androids are stronger and they thought they would match their strength, when it was actually the ki that is matched
That’s probably the most creative and interesting argument I have heard. I love it!!
Only issue is that most sayians couldn’t sense ki before learning it on earth, yet vejita understood the zenkai, so I don’t think their body needs to sense the ki of an opponent, just the threat level, and then it can match it if survived. For example: of a car nearly hits a saiyan, their body will learn that something can come at them at 60 miles an hour, and learns how to dodge it best next time it faces a car at 60 mph. Like muscle memory in working out.
This is also what ive always thought was the case, not ki sensing. However the Android thing is interesting. My head canon is that the saiyans just instinctvely know when their Zenkai boost is enough and when its not enough, hence why both Goku and Vegata knew they had to train before fighting them again.
Old video but I’m curious how did Vegeta receive a boost when krillian blasted him?
Kinda seems like Zenkai’s were forgotten about by this point in the story
That's really what it was but fans have to come up with in universe theories to explain the inconsistencies that result from toriyamas forgetfulness.
I feel that the only person who has utilized the Zenkai to its fullest is Broly! It’s the only thing that can explain his massive growth on a wasteland.
The explanation I have is that maybe in DB the human level characters just weren't physically strong enough for Zenkais to be as demonstrably significant as they are in early Z. Because everyone in Z other than Piccolo were human or human level (excluding Roshi & Tenshinhan.) Generally though. By the end of DB Goku's Power level was 400 or something. So he did get stronger, but 400 is nothing in Z but like meta human by human standards.
Hey Mike. How is your day?
I would love if you would to do what if Goku and the other Saiyans and half Saiyan actually got Zenkai throughout the Dragon Ball series and original dragon ball movies and the Dragon Ball Z series and all of its movies and yes that does include Filler Arcs for both series
I always assumed that after those massive boosts in the Freeza saga, they started getting diminishing returns. The only exception was Cell, but he was born much stronger than any of them and that was his very first big boost.
As a huge lifelong DBZ Fan, this concept seems like it should have been common sense, but my guy this blew my mind. Bravo 👏🏿 💯🔥
Well, I say when the android releases a power beam. They should be tell how much power/energy they have. You can't hide power ones it's let out that Science-based. So, in a fight, they will be able to judge how strong they are by the power beam. With that, the boost they'll get will be based on the energy they release. Zankai is a biology factor that them evolve to stay alive. With that said, it's just how the team wrote the story for a dramatic theme.😅
Early gang 😉
Zenkai boost activate once beaten close to death. But response of the Zenkai rises to the threat of the danger at the time.
In the android/cell saga they were never beaten while the opponent was anywhere near full power thus never growing to be a sufficient match.
The only time we ever see a Zenkai that was ridiculous was when Krillen blasted a whole in Vegeta and he got that massive boost.
Other than that they always rose to or above the level of the opponent that bested them in battle.
Trunks and Vegeta did receive a Zenkai on top of extra training however cell beat them barely using any power.
Trunks didn’t even get beaten enough to receive a boost from cell. And he only got knocked out by 17.
There wasn’t much opportunity for Zenkai in that arc.
Yay. I'm the real hero!
Probably my favorite scene in the whole franchise
th-cam.com/video/6YX0j2luD-A/w-d-xo.html
Let's see... I can figure this one out without actually watching the video.
Goku VS Android 19 - Although Goku WAS nearly dying, you don't get boosts from fighting a virus. Without Goku being sick, 19 probably wouldn't have won.
Vegeta VS Android 18 - You have to be near death for this stuff to work, and 18 didn't nearly kill Vegeta. She just broke his bones.
Ah, when else, when else? Hmmm... Against Cell, perhaps? Or perhaps in the future timeline against the Androids? I think it boils down to the idea that the Saiyans DID, but it wasn't enough to deal with the perpetually-charged Androids, OR the Androids kill them, so it didn't matter. The problem is how close to dying you are without going over. For instance, Vegeta literally getting Krillin to blast him in the chest WORKED because Krillin nearly killed him. It's HARD to kill a Super Saiyan...
what Akira Toriyama said is the most logical and the only possible reason.
Super Sayajin doesn't get Zenkai in principle.
I have a theory, which I think speak for itself.
DBZ characters have 2 types of power:
1. Their active battle power. This is when they are in combat after powering up.
2. Overall battle power.
So here is what happens:
Say we have Vegeta with a power of 10.000 fighting Goku with a power of 5.000. Obviously Vegeta would stomp him. Goku uses the Kaioken, now he is 10.000 and is able to match him. Then he goes x3 and gut punches Vegeta. This damage lowers vegeta's active battle power from 10.000, to say 9.000. He gets a couple more hits like that and now he is pushed down to 4.000, where Goku can better fight him. If Vegeta survives this fight, with near death, he will gain a zenkai, pushing him to about 15.000 once he is fully recovered. But while they fight, their Overall battlepower increases. So that when they rest, that gets added also.
I mean 17,18 we’re so much stronger you would hardly know the difference in the Sayians getting stronger
I think Goku vs King Piccolo still lines up with your "Active Threat" theory of Zen Kai's. "Old" King Piccolo that defeated Goku, who got a Zen Kai after healing, then King Piccolo wished for his youth with the Dragon Balls, greatly increasing his power, then Goku drank the Ultra Divine Water, giving him enough power to defeat "Young" King Piccolo. Obviously, this is still a retcon, but I think it works with the theory
Sorry Mike but I disagree with you. They don't have to say a Saiyan got a Zenkai for him to get it. If Goku didn't got a Zenkai from fighting #19 then he at least must have gotten one from the heart virus recovery. Also I made a calculation of how powerful Bejita has been when he fought #19 so hear me out. In his x100 gravity Goku reached from 15 K - 90 K (x6 boost to his base power). At the time of the Trunks saga I estimate Bejita to be at 4 M base at most. Which means that after x450 gravity training he is around 108-120 M at base. So this is what Goku means when he says he is not as powerful as Bejita. Now Bejita I assume got 3 Zenkais. One against #18 one when he was beaten by Cell after the idiot allowed him to transform and one after the Cell Games.
Barring Toriyama forgetting... In some ways, SSJ is the new zenkai boost. Zenkai boosts feel very much like a continuation of the DB's tendency to give artificial power boosts to Goku (Vegeta is a Goku proxy during the first half of the Freeza arc) so he can "become" the strongest. Once transformations hits, zenkai become useless much like how martial arts and every one of Goku's Earth teachers end up. (Notice how he surpasses them by the end of the next arc, usually involving a "death" and some gimmick.)
The proxy reason is also why Vegeta got them but not Gohan. Because by the time Gohan becomes a Goku proxy, SSJ was already "mastered", so he was never written to get one.
To further your hypothesis it would also explain why the Sayians did not get stronger as they fought the androids. Which explains some of the surprise of them getting weaker during a battle, as it is not new that enemies or allies hold back and even lie about reserves of power. It may even explain why Goku fought android 19 while succumbing to the virus. Goku expected that SS plus increased power due to fighting would be enough to win.
Finally, Cell blows a huge hole in the theory as Cell had Ki and could be sensed. There are still logical solutions. Like Frieza, the boost is not enough to matter. And/or the boost is more pronounced in base form than while in SS form. The most comprehensive answer is that it is psychological. If battle KI cannot be sensed it cannot be attained. It explains the lack of Ki boost during the Boo saga. Against Babidis’ menions there was the boost until Boo, where they could feel the KI but it felt like nothing, and it was infinite.
The saiyans had to spend a year/day inside the time chamber zenkaing each other off to get stronger. It probably worked out better for goku and gohan too because they actually trained together the whole time basically while vegeta focused on himself and didn’t train with trunks at all I don’t think. Now that I think about it, it’s almost like teamwork and friendly rivalry’s are the key to becoming a powerful saiyan, but the hierarchy and customs of the saiyan race are all about being the best on your own. Especially in vegetas case because his dad was the king. What if that was all because of Frieza spreading false information and propaganda to control his army more effectively. To keep the saiyans from getting too strong and possibly revolting against the Frieza Force. It would be cool to see a whole series of what happened from the time Frieza first acquired the saiyans and up to him deciding to destroy them because they are going to attack him possibly.
The real answer is somewhere between Toriyama forgot and that it would kill the story if the zenkai boosts stayed consistent. I mean, Vegeta went from being around Cui's level to rivaling 1st Form Frieza all due to 2 zenkais. Hell, Goku went from 50,000 to contending with Final Form Frieza after a single zenkai boost. The boost was always due to how much the plot needed to move the story forward. It's why Cell's zenkai was just enough to make him a threat, when he wasn't before.
If Future Gohan recieved a zenkai boost, there would be no need to go back in time. Going off of the movie, he was actually doing well against the androids 1v1. It wasn't until he had to save Trunks that he started losing bad. And when it was 1v2, he was doing well then, too until they jumped him.
Remeber when Goku got his ass kicked by old Picoro?. If zenkais worked the way they did in the Namek saga then after taking that senzu bean from master Kariim Goku should have been a lot stronger than that old Picoro and should have been able to sweep the floor with him
I just think the zenkai boosts were insignificant. There are a few reasons I believe this. One Vegeta got a Zenkai boost from Krillin blasting him and he was way weaker than Vegeta. Vegeta had to let his guard down for it to injure him at all. You could argue that he could sense Frieza's power. But if that was the case why did he think he could handle final form Frieza who would be much stronger as per all the transformations.
2. Vegeta also fought Perfect Cell twice, one he was knocked unconcious just like against Android 18. Yet when given a Senzu bean he didn't seem to have any indication of getting a Zenkai boost. He was also injured pretty heavily against the Cell Jrs and didn't receive a Zenkai.
3. If I'm not mistaken Goku received Zenkai boosts while gravity training on his way to Namek which caused him to go from 8,000 to 90,000 in a week's time. No energy to sense here besides his own.
Sensing energy and scaling up to it is a pretty interesting theory. I just don't think it holds much water. As for Gohan not getting strong enough, well...most people just consider it a plothole at this point. But my guess is he got super saiyan quite early when his power level wasn't too massive. I'm also going to assume he didn't train at all during the 3 years it took for the androids to appear. In fact his power probably got weaker with him studying and the death of Goku. Gohan probably had a power level of around 1mil or just slightly higher than that. Which is around 50 million in Super Saiyan form. Not even close to touching even final form Frieza whose fodder at this point. Gohan had no training partners, or a master to teach him. He was also in hiding and couldn't just openly train out in the open, and even when he did he couldn't risk going overboard and destroying the earth around him in the process. Something he was worried about in the Cell saga. As you stated he had no ki to sense to actually try to measure up to the androids, so even if he thought he had gotten way way stronger, they were likely just toying with him. It's possible a lot of his fights with them ended with Gohan simply running away rather than being at death's door. And even if he got one or two massive Zenkai's it just wasn't enough. Even if Gohan's power quadrupled since the Androids first appeared he still wouldn't win against them.
Truth be told guys, After the Frieza saga zenkai boost became irrelevant. Just like power levels after the before mentioned saga it doesn't matter anymore. Read the manga just saving u time. Everything after Frieza saga is solely speculation.
WHAT IF Trunks arrived to give the medicine and warning 6 months before the androids arrived? He stays until the Android attack. Couldn't he have asked the dragon of Geros location? What would it change?
Cuz they couldn't sense the androids so they couldn't "program" their zenkais to rise to a specific level.
I was wondering this today when I was rewatching DBZ!! Thank you!!
The Manga for HofT I didnt like it compared to the Anime movie.
Actually it never was said that Zenkais double or tripple the Strenght , it just said it does multiplie which means a Sayajin could go from 1000000 to 1000001 after a zenkai
Zenkais we're at there best on Namek but once the android saga started it really didn't make sense to keep them any more even though I originally thought they were still getting them it just wasn't as much as a boost to win the fight.🤷
The instinctual feeling of ki is an awfully convenient way of plugging the holes of this theory. Vegeta learned to sense ki very quickly because he is a prodigy. Also Vegeta was stronger than goku when they first fought so the active threat theory does not explain his zenkai afterwards.
Vegeta was stronger than Goku at his base, sure. But he also experienced Goku’s Kaioken x3 firsthand… a power level of 24,000… which is incidentally what Vegeta’s exact level was recorded at when he arrived on Namek.
They were never near death. Who is near death in the android saga? Vegeta got his arm broken, he wasn't nearly dead.
Zenkais are incredibly rare occurrences. Usually, when conquering worlds, Saiyans have an easy time. They're natural born elite warriors. Any time it wasn't easy, they'd use oozaru. They also didn't have sensu beans, so when they did get beaten to near death, they'd just die.
Vegeta seeing what was possible for a low class Saiyan to achieve in one year, from Goku, was the first time he began to understand that if he pushed himself he could become a lot stronger.
He then found himself in a scenario where he was taking on the strongest fighters in the universe, whilst Freeza also needed him alive.
The self-inflicted zenkai would probably only work once as it's a novel stimulus. Like Vegeta lowering his guard and letting Krillin almost kill him. He couldn't just do that repeatedly. And it wouldn't be as potent as being nearly killed during a battle at his max.
Goku also had his soul ripped out and put back in, and his body was adapted to kaioken - an unnatural multiplier that ravaged his body. His zenkais probably adapted to that.
There are only 2 parts in DB when we are told they no longer have a zenkai boost: Gohan after getting treatment from Dende to recover him from Butenks beating and Goku and Vegeta after recovering from the beaten of Black Goku and Zamasu
3:40 this isn't the case because many power ups don't scale to the highest threat. Goku didn't adapt to great ape Vegeta. Then vegeta himself doesn't adapt to gokus KK x4 which was 32k and his spirit bomb would be even higher. Great ape gohan would also be higher than 24k if you include his rage amp. He also never scaled up to first form frieza until multiple zenkais after his zarbon fight. So simply "sensing the highest active threat" isn't going to boost him to that level.
The ki sensing argument for Zenkai makes no sense. When Vegeta got his Zenkai from his Earth battle, he did not know how to sense ki yet. Who knows when the guy learnt it. Anyway I am sure that in the Bardock movie, it was implied that Bardock's team grew to compete with elite Saiyans because of Zenkai boosts. They could not sense energy either. I just think the Zenkai boost was a cop out for the Namek plot to happen so Vegeta, Gohan and Goku could compete with the villains.
I like the headcannon that saiyan hybrids have more potential and gain power quickly but don't recieve zenkai's like full blooded saiyans.
I do like the theory that it wasn't so much the body couldn't sense the ki but more so that it was a different kind of ki we do get so indicators that this exists in Dragon Ball Z when Goku meets King Yemma and King Ki both have a great power compared to Goku but he doesn't ever seem to fully grasp the power as if he is never able to sense it and has to be told by Kami that while King Yemma was strong enough to over power Raditiz send him to HFIL King Kai is stronger than Yemma. This is seemingly called back to when we meet Supreme Kai and Kabito as Piccolo knows they have great power but can't seem to get a read on it. So the zenkai boost might only come from natural ki that living beings give off and the Androids specifically 19, 18, 17, and 16 would have vs Cell who everyone is able to sense his power because he does seem to draw it from the living cells he's made up of. I also like that once you reach Super Sayian the zenkai boosts are very minor in terms of overall power given who you star to go up against.
Usually i agree with your arguments but don't think this one quit works.
I think the answer is simple, the power boosts Zenkai's could give became irrelevant and hit their peak in the Freeza saga. Zenkai's stopped bring relevant even to the Buu saga.
Even if they were getting the gains Goku and Vegeta got(a few million) at the end of the Freeza saga, that wouldn't be relevant in a world of super sayians by themselves.
I wish senzu beans were a real thing. Eating once a week and recovering in full from any injury… no wonder Yajirobe would love it.
What if: Yajirobe never got addicted to senzu beans (he is actually an exceptionally strong human)
As you said it the androids get a boost from the energy drain from each fight. Minus tge red dots on the hands from 19 and Dr. Gero, 17 and 18 naturally absorb the power from touch. So even with the boost, the Androids always have the advantage.
As a kid I used think once they became a Super Saiyan then boost just didn't work anymore after unlocking Ssj. IDK maybe because the Zenki didn't make a difference anymore and they stopped talking about it. Cell was the last to get use out of it.
Man I am seeing a lot of comments from people that seem to think just because you can't precisely gage a persons power level or track it, that somehow your body isn't receiving the information... Guys you can't 'learn to sense ki' and have it magically produce some new organ or some shit, clearly EVERYONE can feel ki and you train to be proficient at discerning that information so you can tell how strong they are and where they are...
Also, it explains further gives Goku props to understand that the only one who could get a boost while fighting would be Gohan, as Gohan would not be increasing power due to battle, but tapping into Gohan true power due to being released through rage. As such, Piccolo and Goku were wrong as to why Gohan had not released the full power. Cell realized it and was able to force Gohan to release that untapped power.
It didn't have anything to do with the Androids, the Zenkais dramatically slowed down after obtaining SSJ until they eventually couldn't get them anymore.
I thought this was already explained and common knowledge at this point.
Real reason , Toriyama got tired of them.
In story wise, they dont amount much anymore when dealing with characters in the millions and hundred millions.
Toriyama needed an excuse because of powerlevels and he made Frieza too strong and needed a plot device to do it, the big jumps in Namek saga were a one time thing,.
From what I've seen they arent linear , as soon as SSj is achieved they are back at "standard" zenkai something between thousands or hundred thousands at best and thats not gonna make any difference even if they get get beat up 10 times over by the same enemy.
In both the present and future SSJ was a ceiling that most saiyans could not pass over it without training in every aspect including body, mind and soul , SSJ was a biological cap for its race.
Even when we see other forms of SSJ, in the end I believe they are just extensions of the original SSJ rather then something different like pokemon/digimon , its often hinted the energy "feel" is the same , they are using the SSJ power after all
I thought they did but the strength difference between enemies and them at the time, was so vast that its like.... Fxck that tiny zenkai gonna do? lol get them beat slower than the last time 😂😂😂 say if zenkai increase your power level by 200 every near death battle. That lil 200 increase to they pl of 20 million isnt gonna make a difference when they fighting enemies thats over 35 million. lol
4:50 But Goku stayed small until the time jump after the King Piccolo arch
Your point about Gohan at 4:55
I think it’s because Gohan is half human instead of pure blooded sayian
Similar to how Vegeta says unlike half breeds, full blooded Sayians don’t have their hair change in length since their birth.
Personally zenkai seem like a plot device that were forgotten about for a while to be honest. I know the movies aren't necessarily cannon but if you look at the fights in the history of trunks which aren't shown in the manga gohan is definitely getting stronger by the time he has his final fight. And thats him with one arm. Trunks was also getting stronger 1v1ing the androids by the end.
I allways assumed that zenkai boosts activated near death. But your greater explanation would be wierd considering vegeta got a zenkai boost from krilling who was significantly weaker than him . Seems like a little bit of headcannon thrown in. Honestly if the zenkai boosts weren't working I imagine there would be a line in the dialogue about it like vegeta saying "I was defeated by a such a strong opponent but why am I not getting any stronger" You think one of the sayians would have some kind of thought like that, because it would be a huge deal. Then maybe they eventually figure out that the androids don't have ki they don't get zenkai. That would be a huge plot point to be honest.
The other side of it is depending how you interpret 17s statement that you showed. FOr me it seems like it was implying he hadn't seen Gohan for a year which could just be my misinterpretation.
The other plausability is that every fight is not bringing them to near death. Maybe like ambush tactics then run away. Gohan only really gets massively injured because he has to protect trunks. Also the fact that tehy are just so much more powerful.
But on the plot device side like you said they aren't scumming/grinding zenkai boosts by just taking turns nearly killing each other then eating senzu beans all day. That would be so degenerate its not even funny. Thinking of all of the meta gaming zenkai boosts, zenkai boosts in and of themselves are probably bad writing. There should be way more requirements for it to activate. To be fair in that interview Toriyama probably considered that zenkai boosts aren't the best for the health of the series.
Bulma could probably build a machine like the frieza army healing chamber that shocks you or nearly kills you then brings you back to health, then nearly kills you then bring you back to health non stop all day while your in a coma or unconscious or something and thats just the future training of dbz.
i like how you bring up your active boost zenkai theory and how it boosted goku up to around 50% final form freiza due to sensing it, but then say that if future gohan had gotten a zenkai he would have reached the 100% power of an enemy who had never even used more than 50% on him up to that point and couldn't even be sensed anyway. kinda goofy.
edit: ah, i should have known you'd make that point yourself.
No near death battles I think. The heart virus doesn't count, Vegeta got beat, broken bones, even broken back, but he wasn't near death. They didn't get torturously beaten like in the Freeza saga. Cell and the Cyborgs are pretty efficient when defeating their opponents.
It was thinking, the law of diminishing returns, or, Toriyama simply forgets as usual. lol
I recalled though that in the anime, saiyans like Raditz might be able to feel power coming from somewhere, but they use the scouter to more accurately determine the level.
Also you can sort of think of training or working out as a form of zenkai, because the purpose of training is to breakdown your muscles and then recovery builds stronger muscle. Not really with your topic but just something I thought of lol
Perfect Cell got a Zenkai when he resurrected from self destructing on king kai's planet. What's the explanation for this?
It's a good theory but I'm not quite convinced that an adverse Ki is required for the zenaki to occur. After all Goku was able to benefit from it by training himself to the point of near-death on his trip to Namek. What is training after all, if not a long drill of micro-zenkais? Even if the androids can't give Sayians the big zenkai boost, fighting them should still count as training.
Because they where fighting inanimate objects training essentially...
Then what about the Cell Games? At the very end after Cell was defeated, Vegeta should have had a significant boost and so should Trunks.
The zenkai only happens when a Saiyan is beaten to within an inch of their life and then recovers. That didn't happen against the androids, so they didn't get a zenkai. Do you mean, "Why wasn't it written into the story?" Because it was replaced by Super Saiyan levels and training.
Well it's simple: the zenkai just became such a small boost thst it became irrelevant, with the transformation is more a question of controlling the ssj instead of some boost the normal physiology of a saiyan
My theory is that unlocking super sayain has some nullifying effect on zenkai boosts.
My man remains unbeaten when it comes to explaining away Toriyama’s mistakes
Good video. Maybe an "Android 19 vs. Namek Frieza and Mecha Frieza?"
vegeta's largest Zenkai was when he got the 30min nap. He mentioned that he did not get any sleep since arrived on Namek goku came 6 days after, so 6 days without sleep.
4:23 You have serious integrity so casually destroying Akira Toriyama like that
My theory is after unlocking Super Saiyan, zenkais stop because their bodies sense that there's no way they should still be getting beat up and refuses to compromise on it 😂
I think it’s cause the androids weren’t significantly stronger than the Saiyans it’s just they had unlimited energy.