Just an FYI, the insulating “fiber material” Lionel used for insulating track rails on pre-and post-war track was a type of paper/card stock which used to be called “fish paper” and was available from electrical supply houses. It was used on some residential light switches and outlet devices in the 30’s through the late 1960s.
Sean, That's a slight bummer regarding the trolley and the switches. And, a shame that you have to change the track plan. Glad you found the shorting issue. Thanks for posting.
MTH also made standard gauge Realtrax with the plastic roadbed. I have O Gauge and some engines with short wheelbases don't like switches. My PRR MTH Premier Atlantic hated switches, so I sold it. I don't have any steam engines smaller than a Pacific type now. My trolly loop has no switches and I tried it on Atlas track and it skipped on the rail joiners. I had to switch to Realtrax. The Joy of Railroading!!!
HAHA, yeah, I have the Real Trax for around the tree, but wanted the original look for this layout. So, I just have one loop with and one without switches now. It frees up more space for buildings anyway, so it all works out better in the end!
When Lionel first started making trains He made no switches. Mr.Cowan got into the toy train business almost by accident. This whole story is very interesting and well worth learning.
I appreciate I'm late to the game but hey... The style of switch you have are of a design which was the last design of Lionels. Prior Lionel, Ives and American Flyer all used the same style of switch which had no frog, the points just pivoting as a unit, therefore having no issues with the large gears. American Flyer wide gauge all have the same large gears negating their use on the last of the Lionel switches. You'll also note with those switches they have a clever locking mechanism where if you manually turn the control the points move. If you try to do this just by pushing the points you'll find them locked in place. Early toy train construction was intended to be as light as practicable as household electricity still wasn't that widespread, and many customers ran their trains on batteries. Needless to say the heavier the train the heavier drain on batteries. By the time the twenties rolled around the situation had changed, and the products of Lionel entered their classic phase, and of course the advent of the Ives and American Flyer competition. With these new products weight was no longer a concern, and with massive diecast or cast iron frames, heavy sheet steel etc these trains had massive weight not seen before. However, another issue sprung up: when these heavy trains entered switches they had a tendency to force the switches open just with their momentum. Lionel recognised this and being the market leader set to the complete redesign which you have a copy there. American Flyer kept their switches as they were, likely for the pragmatic reason that whilst their wide gauge products were good sellers completely redesigning track switches likely didn't warrant the expenditure involved. Ives barely had the resources to continue as they were, and scarce funds were allocated to new products only. Tbh a lot of standard gauge runners tend to just not have many, if any, switches on their layouts. Not least as standard gauge looks unlike anything else even around a simple oval, the excess weight, combined with loose wheel and track tolerances increase the chances of a derailment. I have noticed though that the reproductions never run quite as reliably as the originals.
What a heart-breaker with the switch/gear problem! It’s familiar though…I discovered back in the 1960s that Marx engines couldn’t travel through a Lionel turnout for the same reason. Marx engines had a gear on the back of the drive wheel too. Marx turnouts, of course, weren’t a problem.
If you're using 027 track, use the Lionel 1121 metal (or "humpback") switches. These will cleat geared wheels whose gears are larger than the tread diameter. Some Lionel JR. and earlier Lionel 027 locos had wheels like that. If you run your trains as you should, you don't need a non-derailing feature, Besides, you can park equipment on those switches without the fear of switch coil burnout.
Sean, it looks like when Lionel reproduced that trolley they made it just a little TOO authentic! Whatever was causing the problem at the switch I knew you'd figure it out. And you're right, the original trolleys WERE made to run on closed loops, just a basic trolley on basic track. This is why I run everything on closed loops, trouble I hate. Your track shorting problem, I wouldn't have been at all surprised if it was original track with the insulating pads deteriorated, but I was suprised to see it with new track. You're right, something to be aware of, and not just with standard gauge repro track either, any original-style three-rail track should be checked. By the way, at "The World's Greatest Hobby On Tour Show" in Chantilly VA in February of 2020 there was a Standard Gauge club with a HUGE layout and partying like it was 1939. I wonder if they're the ones buying up all the Standard Gauge track?
Hi Sean. Just so you know the older engines like the #38 and #33 will give you problems on the switches. The have the larger gears on the wheels. The latter #38s they put small gears on them to go through switches. Back in the day the trolley were only designed to run a circle of track. They didn't have switches back when they were first made. This is a common problem. Cross overs are same problem for those early engines. I would leave you track the way you have I and go with Circle with smaller radius since the trolley can run tight radius.
I run all types of O gauge on my layout. Marx, Lionel, MTH, Williams, and even some American Flyer. Pre War, Post War, MPC, and got my first TMCC yesterday. For this reason(friendly to all trains) when I expanded my layout I made sure there was at least one loop that had no switches and no track crossings. I would have thought you would have been safe with newer remakes. Apparently not. At least the short was on the half of the layout where you didn't have to climb around. I am surprised you never tried to run the trains before you screwed them down. Thanks for sharing your adventure.
Hey Sean, I immediately thought insulators on the track. For once I knew something. I had that issue with track back in 2020 during Christmas. If you want to let me know how much you want for the turnouts I may be interested. I sent you an email about May. Check it and let me know. I’m am excited about seeing the wiring video. I really have learned a lot from your detailed videos. I’m gonna bet you had to go to NST in Philly. 😀 Take care. Tim
People run standard gauge don't use switches parker Rolling Stock on the sidings guy on TH-cam mentions he doesn't take the time to wire the switch up. My suggestion is get rid of the switch.
Standard gauge the loop around the Christmas tree. It's better to build a garden Railroad Piko virgin brass track. one is Not confined by space of a house . Or go one step further and go to 7 gauge build a live steam engine.
Just an FYI, the insulating “fiber material” Lionel used for insulating track rails on pre-and post-war track was a type of paper/card stock which used to be called “fish paper” and was available from electrical supply houses. It was used on some residential light switches and outlet devices in the 30’s through the late 1960s.
Sean,
That's a slight bummer regarding the trolley and the switches.
And, a shame that you have to change the track plan.
Glad you found the shorting issue.
Thanks for posting.
MTH also made standard gauge Realtrax with the plastic roadbed. I have O Gauge and some engines with short wheelbases don't like switches. My PRR MTH Premier Atlantic hated switches, so I sold it. I don't have any steam engines smaller than a Pacific type now. My trolly loop has no switches and I tried it on Atlas track and it skipped on the rail joiners. I had to switch to Realtrax. The Joy of Railroading!!!
HAHA, yeah, I have the Real Trax for around the tree, but wanted the original look for this layout. So, I just have one loop with and one without switches now. It frees up more space for buildings anyway, so it all works out better in the end!
When Lionel first started making trains He made no switches. Mr.Cowan got into the toy train business almost by accident. This whole story is very interesting and well worth learning.
I appreciate I'm late to the game but hey...
The style of switch you have are of a design which was the last design of Lionels.
Prior Lionel, Ives and American Flyer all used the same style of switch which had no frog, the points just pivoting as a unit, therefore having no issues with the large gears.
American Flyer wide gauge all have the same large gears negating their use on the last of the Lionel switches.
You'll also note with those switches they have a clever locking mechanism where if you manually turn the control the points move. If you try to do this just by pushing the points you'll find them locked in place.
Early toy train construction was intended to be as light as practicable as household electricity still wasn't that widespread, and many customers ran their trains on batteries.
Needless to say the heavier the train the heavier drain on batteries.
By the time the twenties rolled around the situation had changed, and the products of Lionel entered their classic phase, and of course the advent of the Ives and American Flyer competition.
With these new products weight was no longer a concern, and with massive diecast or cast iron frames, heavy sheet steel etc these trains had massive weight not seen before.
However, another issue sprung up: when these heavy trains entered switches they had a tendency to force the switches open just with their momentum. Lionel recognised this and being the market leader set to the complete redesign which you have a copy there.
American Flyer kept their switches as they were, likely for the pragmatic reason that whilst their wide gauge products were good sellers completely redesigning track switches likely didn't warrant the expenditure involved. Ives barely had the resources to continue as they were, and scarce funds were allocated to new products only.
Tbh a lot of standard gauge runners tend to just not have many, if any, switches on their layouts. Not least as standard gauge looks unlike anything else even around a simple oval, the excess weight, combined with loose wheel and track tolerances increase the chances of a derailment.
I have noticed though that the reproductions never run quite as reliably as the originals.
What a heart-breaker with the switch/gear problem! It’s familiar though…I discovered back in the 1960s that Marx engines couldn’t travel through a Lionel turnout for the same reason. Marx engines had a gear on the back of the drive wheel too. Marx turnouts, of course, weren’t a problem.
If you're using 027 track, use the Lionel 1121 metal (or "humpback") switches. These will cleat geared wheels whose gears are larger than the tread diameter. Some Lionel JR. and earlier Lionel 027 locos had wheels like that. If you run your trains as you should, you don't need a non-derailing feature, Besides, you can park equipment on those switches without the fear of switch coil burnout.
Sean, it looks like when Lionel reproduced that trolley they made it just a little TOO authentic! Whatever was causing the problem at the switch I knew you'd figure it out. And you're right, the original trolleys WERE made to run on closed loops, just a basic trolley on basic track.
This is why I run everything on closed loops, trouble I hate.
Your track shorting problem, I wouldn't have been at all surprised if it was original track with the insulating pads deteriorated, but I was suprised to see it with new track. You're right, something to be aware of, and not just with standard gauge repro track either, any original-style three-rail track should be checked.
By the way, at "The World's Greatest Hobby On Tour Show" in Chantilly VA in February of 2020 there was a Standard Gauge club with a HUGE layout and partying like it was 1939. I wonder if they're the ones buying up all the Standard Gauge track?
Thanks for sharing. ♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐♐👌
Hi Sean.
Just so you know the older engines like the #38 and #33 will give you problems on the switches.
The have the larger gears on the wheels.
The latter #38s they put small gears on them to go through switches.
Back in the day the trolley were only designed to run a circle of track.
They didn't have switches back when they were first made.
This is a common problem.
Cross overs are same problem for those early engines.
I would leave you track the way you have I and go with Circle with smaller radius since the trolley can run tight radius.
I run all types of O gauge on my layout. Marx, Lionel, MTH, Williams, and even some American Flyer. Pre War, Post War, MPC, and got my first TMCC yesterday. For this reason(friendly to all trains) when I expanded my layout I made sure there was at least one loop that had no switches and no track crossings. I would have thought you would have been safe with newer remakes. Apparently not. At least the short was on the half of the layout where you didn't have to climb around. I am surprised you never tried to run the trains before you screwed them down. Thanks for sharing your adventure.
Interesting Sean. It's always something.
These problems have been known for decades when they went to remanufacture the switches they didn't change the design.LOL
Why don’t you do a small elevated trolly loop a leave the switches where they are. Just a thought !
Hey Sean, I immediately thought insulators on the track. For once I knew something. I had that issue with track back in 2020 during Christmas. If you want to let me know how much you want for the turnouts I may be interested. I sent you an email about May. Check it and let me know. I’m am excited about seeing the wiring video. I really have learned a lot from your detailed videos. I’m gonna bet you had to go to NST in Philly. 😀
Take care.
Tim
Awsum 😎👍
People run standard gauge don't use switches parker Rolling Stock on the sidings guy on TH-cam mentions he doesn't take the time to wire the switch up. My suggestion is get rid of the switch.
If it was to easy it would not be as rewarding lol. Marx trains won’t go through Lionel switches for the same reason nice video
Marx engines go just fine thru prewar and early postwar Lionel 027 switches and crossings.
Standard gauge the loop around the Christmas tree. It's better to build a garden Railroad Piko virgin brass track. one is Not confined by space of a house . Or go one step further and go to 7 gauge build a live steam engine.