Another great topic, Jason. Starting as a bass guitarist, I could not help but “see” the fingerboard laid out as a series of dots and spaces. Meeting Edgar definitely served as an affirmation. So, I’m definitely a big cheater and make no apologies. However, markers will not help you play better in tune. To me, it serves as a road map of how I innately view the fingerboard.
MARKING saves musical moments! Bass do jour? Mark it!! Challenging tune in Db in the studio? Mark it! Who cares? I don't, and if someone does, well, too bad for them lol! Thank you, Jason!
A neck has 2 sides! I study and play the Rabbath method. I use TINY 2mm "pearls" - the kind one can stick on clothing or purses etc, and I place these on the BACK of the neck. I can feel them with my thumb, and Muscle memory comes very quickly. I only have one on Now and one in the centre of the fingerboard in between 6th + pos (Rabbath). This immediately teaches correct hand position, relies on FEEL, and is TINY on the centre of the fingerboard - no one can see it. I had more on, but I simply don't need them. The thumb will even pick up a little paper dot - 5mm. the kind we use to highlight maps or papers. The Back, man - the back. That's the key.
Reminds me of a bass player in Liège who had little NAILS inserted in the back of his neck (well, the neck of his bass, obviously). He called it "la basse à clous" or the "bass with nails". A bit drastic, but it's still a good idea to use the back of the neck. Glad you brought it up!
I use nail polish for the dot system on my bass. I find that stickers and tapes will shift/ move due to humidity changes so they are not reliable. Pencil markings, as you said, naturally fade out onto your fingers and strings. Nail polish dots aren’t permanent but they will never move. The only thing that can happen is that you can scratch off some parts of the dot over the course of a year, so I usually re-apply them once a year or every two years.
Sometimes just an inconspicuous smudge of finger/forehead grease is the difference between nailing that high note, or sounding like your bass just hit puberty.
I love that you present all options so openly , this is important , because we are all so different. It depends on where anyone is on the path of learning bass, and also of what exactly you need to play. When you need to start a part out of the blue after a silence, it is much more secure to place position using a visual reference. When the body is used to it , visual reference is not necessary anymore., but was so necessary at the beginning. For my part, I use the natural lines of the wood to create visual references, but sometimes the wood does not have the visual reference where needed, and also , with winter and summer changes (and aging of strings) these references may change, so it could be good to have pencil and tape references. thanks for bringing the topic !
3:00: I saw Christian McBride with small white dot markings on his fingerboard! If one of the best and most notable (see what I did there) modern players can do it, do can I. My solution so far: subtly mark 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th positions on the neck wood, on the E string side, with black magic marker. The markings look like typical ‘imperfections’ commonly found in any piece of wood. But from there I am very tempted to add a white dot between the D and G strings for the octave, and perhaps at the 15th position. Maybe also at 17th, though I rarely play up there.
Just do it bluegrass style. Draw frets in about 3 positions in pencil around on the side where only you can see them and you're good to go. After playing for 9 months I will admit I don't really need them anymore but it's more of a security blanket.
My wife had some foil stickers for Christmas gifts. I punched a couple dots with a hole punch and put them at the G and D octave. They look like inlays, and I can remove them if I want.
Ive played electric bass for many years in the late 80s I also started fretless without fret lines but side dots on the neck . The lined fretless I do not like it makes you second guess your ears . Id like to get a double bass , Ive tried them I think I would put on those glow in the dark side dots and/ or dots on the fingerboard . ( I Really don't care what people would think of it , if it works for me)
My take as an amateur, self-taught bassist, playing in several orchestra for several years: it's okay to have some marking as long as we DONT become reliant on it. Ears and finger distance feels are still very important. Especially when we play in an ensemble, play a chord.. we're not always in the same temperament tuning, roughly speaking. We always adjust the intonation to each other. That's where one might find, hey why do I sound correct even tho I'm not pressing on the mark? Why do I sound off when I press right on the mark. That could also be amplified with the bass' intial tuning, did we tune all strings true to tuning app (like a keyboard/12 equal) or we tune using other strings (perf 4th/5th)? The marks' place would then be slightly different. The one case that might helpful if we stay true to the mark is, when we are recording with backing track that have 12 equal tuning 😁
Playing in different groups I found I needed a reference point in loud situations where it was hard to hear. I have two marks. One on the side of the finger board at the low G by the E string and the other between the G and D string on the finger board at the high G. I feel this is the best of both worlds because I still have to use my ear and hand positions but it pulls me back in when I need it.. I also mark with a small dot using white out. It stays on for a long time and when it does rub off there is no damage to the instrument, Plus if you do it neatly, it looks like an inlay. Talk about cheating. Happy hunting. thanks for your videos and instruction.
I use markings only on a few harmonics, and only as a reference for those 'down times' where there are bars of silence in the music (orchestral). Usually, I reference my new note with the last note played, but when starting 'out of nowhere', it is nice to know that when I do come in I will be in tune (without having to pluck the harmonic or check tuning with an adjacent string). Also, markings help us to visualize how the 'space between notes' gets smaller as we go up the bass. I use small dots of 'white-out' as my markings. They last a fair bit of time and are very easy to see, yet they are quite easy to scratch off with your fingernail (try it only in one place first--different wood could give different results??--I don't want you to permanently scar your bass with my suggestion). Another trick is to put the mark on the side of the fingerboard facing you instead of the front--this way, it looks to others that you are not using them (this is really sneaky 'cheating'). Of course from a different angle, it could look 'off', but after awhile you can adjust for the 'off'.
When I was learning the double bass, I added a few "pinstripes" to my double bass fretboard. However, when playing pizzicato the pinstripe tape caused a buzzing when I'd play pizzicato. I inadvertently found this out only after I had my fretboard planed. The buzzing occurred again after I added the pinstripe tape. In response to the comment below: affirmed my use of pinstriping. I few months again, I finally bought a fretless electric bass, because of my double bass ability, I have no trouble playing a fretless, yeah!
Great video and topic. I always liked using pencil for the exact reason that you called a con. It rubs off. When I would perform a piece with a large shift that made me nervous, I would use an indiscreet pencil line on the finger board during practice sessions and let it wear off. By the time of the performance, I would usually feel more secure about the shift. Recently, I had inlays put into my neck. Due to an accident, my neck broke in 1/2. I brought it to Gencarelli Bass Works to have it repaired and Brian graciously let me borrow a bass that had inlays. My first gig with it was backing up a Queen cover band. I literally could not hear myself over the massive P.A. system. Those inlays got me through the gig. Seeing such notable performers as Edgar Meyer and Lauren Pierce use them made me feel less ashamed to have them as well. The one thing I changed was that I asked to have the inlays marked the same way they would be on a bass guitar. I also play that instrument and it made more sense to my brain. I LOVE it. I have found that you can't be TOO reliant on it as the inlays aren't perfect. I don't regret having the surgery, especially since Frank (my bass) was already having a major operation. :)
My experience with marking the fingerboard: I was having to play in front of audiences right from the first week of taking up the double bass (I'd played bass guitar for several decades). I found that having marks allowed me to play with more confidence and assuredness. To my mind, the most important thing was what the audience was going to hear, and a confidently played note sounds worlds away from a tentatively played one. By the time you realise that your intonation was ok, it's too late...that note is gone. I recently upgraded to a new bass, and haven't got around to marking it yet. But I'm finding that my intonation without the markings has improved dramatically, as a certain amount of muscle memory has developed. I have a fair idea of what each position should feel like, in my arm and hand and shoulder. I'm sure this is purely because the marks allowed me to play consistently in the right places.
I know, I know . . . this is all about the bass : ) But I once heard Yo-Yo Ma say that his cello is not always perfectly in tune when he plays! This obviously comes from a living legend of the instrument but I believe it demonstrates how a good musician can "adjust", on the fly so to speak, to micro changes in his or her instrument's intonation due to variations in temperature and environment etc, or for that matter, adapt quickly to a new set up on your instrument or even a new or different instrument all together! That is why IMHO, IF and when one CAN depend less and less on visual aids, one can become a more "solid" player. LOVE your videos, Jason!
That’s cool. But you do understand that those markings are just reference points, right? Nobody is making you stop the string on the mark. You adjust to the instrument on a day to day basis if need be. Edgar Meyer’s 1769 Gabrielli bass has dots. Gary Willis plays with fret lines and dots. Are they not masters of their instrument? Or are they not solid, because they have access to visual aids?
@@Peter-ff1tp Yes actually I DO understand they are reference points and if you read my comment,I write the masters are able to adjust on the fly so to speak - SOME masters, as you say, do have reference lines and dots - they probably very rarely actually HAVE to LOOK at them. If by chance they do HAVE to look at them to "find their place" on the fretboard it makes me wonder a wee bit :-)
Actually I had marks like that on wood when I get my second hand double bass. But now at the 2year of learning I realise they are not enough and I ready to make additional with metal glue stripe to make it removable
Thanks Jason, good topic. Nothing wrong with marking the fingerboard. Whatever helps you to play better. It's all very well to say "develop your hearing", but half of the time in the orchestra you simply CAN'T hear yourself, for starters, especially when you have the percussion right behind you, or the trombones blowing into your ears. A pianist occasionally looks at his keyboard, a guitarist does look at his fingerboard every once in a while. Also, not every player has the same tactile facility. I had many students who had an excellent ear and outstanding musicality, but who still had some difficulty with "motorics". However hard you work, there is always an element of innate ability that is stronger in some people than in others. I also had students who didn't need to "develop their hearing" in order to have pinpoint accuracy in pitch.Let's not be purists or holier than the pope, let's not invent "rules" that must apply to everyone. And besides, whatever's good enough for Edgar Meyer (and a huge number of other fantastic players) is good enough for me :-)
I've started many students from age 11 to adult on the bass over the last 40 years, and I concluded years ago that marks ON the fingerboard (under or next to the strings) only leads to a disfunctional eye/hand relationship rather than the desired ear/hand connection that ultimately leads to solid pitch. Using such marks can also lead to neck or back issues because efforts to see the fingerboard while playing takes your body out of natural alignment. Lastly, tape left on the fingerboard for weeks, months or years can be very difficult to clean off. Regarding inlays on the fingerboard, they are decorative, but check with your luthier before you have it done. He/She may no longer want to dress your fingerboard once you install the inlays. Here's what I recommend instead. Mark the E string edge of the fingerboard with dots placed where you find them on the guitar or electric bass (frets 3, 5, 7, 9 and 12). I use file folder dots you can buy at Office Depot. Some students add more permanent marks with something like white-out or water soluable paint. Try it first to make sure it can be easily cleaned off. These marks provide some security while still promoting healthy ear/hand relationship. Most students let the dots go after about a year.
Almost to afraid to mention ..but OK I will be brave , I had my Luthier put dots on the finger board (special machine drilled holes into the fingerboard and they inlaid Mother of Pearl dots from the D to the D on the G string ) and it's really helped me, in the beginning. BUT now I am at the stage whee I wonder if I should not have had this procedure done ?? Maybe just a row of dots on the octave just to help you transition into thumb would have sufficed?
Thank you for posting this. I find from some intense practice moments that no marks on the fingerboard is the way to go. Oddly just keeping my eyes on the music allows me to play more in tune. If I look at the bass during practice, I stop listening to tuning. I agree (sort of) that above the octave marking C and E might be of value. The notion of marking primary positions seems to mess up my thinking : we should be training our ears to hear pitches, not relying on our eyes for tuning. This makes me think of a job I was playing where my parts were all written . The minute we began to play, the lighting was so faint that I couldn't see my instrument, much less the music, so training your listening is the key. Don't rely on being able to see anything, besides how are you going to watch the conductor ?
When you are sight reading you can't really see the markers all that well. I would think you could get away with an even more minimal set of markings if you really insist on doing so. Maybe D on the G string, then G and perhaps C and D above G. When you have markers I think you do tend to rely on them a bit even if you have the muscle memory and ear recognition down. It seems like you are better off not starting out this way because, just like everybody else you will eventually learn how to do it without markers, albeit some days you might still mess up a jump that you usually nail. I also play fretless bass guitar. I started out with lines on this from day 1 since I wanted to be able to use it right away. Over time my muscle memory and ear kicked in more so I didn't look most of the time, but it was very handy for doing large shifts so I don't regret having lines on it. I will admit it took a few years to start being able to visualize the upright fretboard to "see the notes". At first it looked like a 3-4 half steps of known area followed by a vast wasteland of mystery until I hit the 4 half steps in thumb position at the octave..Now there is still some mystery in some positions especially going above C on the G string.....
STUPIDLY detailed comment incoming, I truly apologize for the length of this XD: Intonation is really important to remember with this: If you make a mark at a specific spot on the fingerboard, it will only be in tune with the string that you tested it with. To see this in real time, tune your bass perfectly, then put a piece of tape across the entire fingerboard where you mark thumb position A on the G string. Then play a thumb position E on the D string right next to it and tune it perfectly with the tuner. On even a well intonated instrument, the tape will PROBABLY have to angle against the fingerboard in order to be in the correct spot for a perfectly in tune E. Repeat for B and F# on the A and E strings. You will see that each of those 4 notes has it's own specific spot that doesn't necessarily line up with the other strings. This is why, when I mark the fingerboard, I do 4 separate lines for each of those notes, in pencil. This also doesn't even get into building chords as an orchestra, where the same note will be in a different spot depending on the context of the note in the chord of the ensemble. If you are playing an E and the orchestra is playing a C# minor chord, that same E will need to be retuned for an E minor chord. Using your ears in this case is pretty much your only option, though if you understand this, a line CAN be a decent reference for general placement. It will just be unreliable when trying to be REALLY perfect about intonation. I teach beginner strings, and I use tapes for beginners who are still learning how positions work. In this case, intonation is the least of my problems, I'm ONLY trying to teach them the general position of their hand. That being said, even young students who have been playing for a couple years will tell me that they don't even pay attention to the lines anymore. ALSO, on top of that, as the wood of an instrument ages or expands/contracts with the seasons, the placement of the notes will change. Therefore, a line that has been on your instrument for maybe 6 months has the chance of being totally in the wrong spot, leading to out of tune playing when using them to reference notes. You HAVE to recheck them every once in a while to make sure they aren't misleading you. At the end of the day, if you take it all into account, there's no problem with marking the fingerboard, but you have to understand all the pitfalls, and there are more than you might think. In terms of intonation, the MUCH better option is practicing your shifts slowly and methodically over the course of years using drone pitches to tune to. If you are in a pinch trying to audition on Ein Heldenleben or something stupid like that, yeah ok, mark it up, ha.
Thanks for the explanations. Very detailed and correct indeed. Any professional bass player knows this, though. Fingerboard markers are not in each and every case meant to be hyper-precise, they're just indicators of a "ball park". When you have to play different basses (personally i have nine) in different tunings and set-ups, with steel or gut strings, with or without frets, different string lengths, different number of strings, different places where to find the D on the G-string, to name but a few variables, having some indications as to where to locate certain important geographical points can be a great help. Nobody said you have to take these markings as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Of course you don't. And in the end, like John Lennon sings: "whatever gets you through the night, it's all right". Or words to that effect. Sometimes i have markings all over the bass, in different colors too. Very flashy. Then again, i spend at least an hour a day practising scales and arpeggios on an unfretted double bass in a pitch-dark (pun intended) room, with drone tracks, just in order to keep my tactile and kinetic abilities in shape. Sometimes markings annoy me, they can indeed get in the way of a fluid playing style, and then i just take them off. Sometimes i use them just to re-orient my spatial awareness: what could be "wrong" with using as many of our senses as possible when practising or playing? As always, a bit of common sense goes a long way. Sure, one can ask, why use markings? Why use drones? Why use a mirror? Because sometimes we need all the help we can get, whether it's only temporary or permanently. Have a great year 2022, all the best!
I was not only taught that it was cheating to mark the fingerboard on your bass, but that it was totally cheating to "compose" your solos,(which are supposed to be improvised) before you actually improvise your solos "on the fly". All the cats from my neighborhood would totally tease you if they knew you were playing a solo that you worked out before hand.
Seriously I think it's cheating the fact that there is no video upload that I have ever been able to find of you actually playing the double bass. One octave scales/arpeggios, that is as far as one can watch you play? Please share a link of you actually playing any piece at all? You can talk. Can you play, as well?
Another great topic, Jason. Starting as a bass guitarist, I could not help but “see” the fingerboard laid out as a series of dots and spaces. Meeting Edgar definitely served as an affirmation. So, I’m definitely a big cheater and make no apologies. However, markers will not help you play better in tune. To me, it serves as a road map of how I innately view the fingerboard.
I feel that, especially also coming from the bass guitar world as well!
MARKING saves musical moments! Bass do jour? Mark it!! Challenging tune in Db in the studio? Mark it! Who cares? I don't, and if someone does, well, too bad for them lol! Thank you, Jason!
For sure!! Hope you’re doing well, man!
A neck has 2 sides! I study and play the Rabbath method. I use TINY 2mm "pearls" - the kind one can stick on clothing or purses etc, and I place these on the BACK of the neck. I can feel them with my thumb, and Muscle memory comes very quickly. I only have one on Now and one in the centre of the fingerboard in between 6th + pos (Rabbath). This immediately teaches correct hand position, relies on FEEL, and is TINY on the centre of the fingerboard - no one can see it. I had more on, but I simply don't need them. The thumb will even pick up a little paper dot - 5mm. the kind we use to highlight maps or papers. The Back, man - the back. That's the key.
Nice!
Reminds me of a bass player in Liège who had little NAILS inserted in the back of his neck (well, the neck of his bass, obviously). He called it "la basse à clous" or the "bass with nails". A bit drastic, but it's still a good idea to use the back of the neck. Glad you brought it up!
I use nail polish for the dot system on my bass. I find that stickers and tapes will shift/ move due to humidity changes so they are not reliable. Pencil markings, as you said, naturally fade out onto your fingers and strings. Nail polish dots aren’t permanent but they will never move. The only thing that can happen is that you can scratch off some parts of the dot over the course of a year, so I usually re-apply them once a year or every two years.
Amateur Bassist for about 40 years, tuning in fifths since 2004, I've marked my fingerboard forever. I too use nail polish thank you.
That works for sure!
Sometimes just an inconspicuous smudge of finger/forehead grease is the difference between nailing that high note, or sounding like your bass just hit puberty.
Ha! Good point.
If it’s okay for NHØP, it’s okay for anyone 😆
I love that you present all options so openly , this is important , because we are all so different. It depends on where anyone is on the path of learning bass, and also of what exactly you need to play. When you need to start a part out of the blue after a silence, it is much more secure to place position using a visual reference. When the body is used to it , visual reference is not necessary anymore., but was so necessary at the beginning. For my part, I use the natural lines of the wood to create visual references, but sometimes the wood does not have the visual reference where needed, and also , with winter and summer changes (and aging of strings) these references may change, so it could be good to have pencil and tape references. thanks for bringing the topic !
You bet-thanks for checking this out!
3:00: I saw Christian McBride with small white dot markings on his fingerboard! If one of the best and most notable (see what I did there) modern players can do it, do can I. My solution so far: subtly mark 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th positions on the neck wood, on the E string side, with black magic marker. The markings look like typical ‘imperfections’ commonly found in any piece of wood. But from there I am very tempted to add a white dot between the D and G strings for the octave, and perhaps at the 15th position. Maybe also at 17th, though I rarely play up there.
That's a good way to do it!
No. I use a hole punch to create dots out of black tape from time to time.
Just do it bluegrass style. Draw frets in about 3 positions in pencil around on the side where only you can see them and you're good to go. After playing for 9 months I will admit I don't really need them anymore but it's more of a security blanket.
Nice!
My wife had some foil stickers for Christmas gifts. I punched a couple dots with a hole punch and put them at the G and D octave. They look like inlays, and I can remove them if I want.
That’s a good solution!
Bass God
Awww, thanks! 😄
I have OCD , so marking learns anxiety
Ive played electric bass for many years in the late 80s I also started fretless without fret lines but side dots on the neck . The lined fretless I do not like it makes you second guess your ears . Id like to get a double bass , Ive tried them I think I would put on those glow in the dark side dots and/ or dots on the fingerboard . ( I Really don't care what people would think of it , if it works for me)
i prefer paint marker because it is more aestheticslly pleasing, doesn’t ever caused dyed wood, and doesn’t affect the tone.
Rosin Saver fingerboard dots!
My take as an amateur, self-taught bassist, playing in several orchestra for several years: it's okay to have some marking as long as we DONT become reliant on it.
Ears and finger distance feels are still very important. Especially when we play in an ensemble, play a chord.. we're not always in the same temperament tuning, roughly speaking. We always adjust the intonation to each other. That's where one might find, hey why do I sound correct even tho I'm not pressing on the mark? Why do I sound off when I press right on the mark. That could also be amplified with the bass' intial tuning, did we tune all strings true to tuning app (like a keyboard/12 equal) or we tune using other strings (perf 4th/5th)? The marks' place would then be slightly different.
The one case that might helpful if we stay true to the mark is, when we are recording with backing track that have 12 equal tuning 😁
I echo that!
Playing in different groups I found I needed a reference point in loud situations where it was hard to hear. I have two marks. One on the side of the finger board at the low G by the E string and the other between the G and D string on the finger board at the high G. I feel this is the best of both worlds because I still have to use my ear and hand positions but it pulls me back in when I need it.. I also mark with a small dot using white out. It stays on for a long time and when it does rub off there is no damage to the instrument, Plus if you do it neatly, it looks like an inlay. Talk about cheating. Happy hunting. thanks for your videos and instruction.
You bet--thanks for sharing how you approach this!
I use markings only on a few harmonics, and only as a reference for those 'down times' where there are bars of silence in the music (orchestral). Usually, I reference my new note with the last note played, but when starting 'out of nowhere', it is nice to know that when I do come in I will be in tune (without having to pluck the harmonic or check tuning with an adjacent string). Also, markings help us to visualize how the 'space between notes' gets smaller as we go up the bass. I use small dots of 'white-out' as my markings. They last a fair bit of time and are very easy to see, yet they are quite easy to scratch off with your fingernail (try it only in one place first--different wood could give different results??--I don't want you to permanently scar your bass with my suggestion). Another trick is to put the mark on the side of the fingerboard facing you instead of the front--this way, it looks to others that you are not using them (this is really sneaky 'cheating'). Of course from a different angle, it could look 'off', but after awhile you can adjust for the 'off'.
When I was learning the double bass, I added a few "pinstripes" to my double bass fretboard. However, when playing pizzicato the pinstripe tape caused a buzzing when I'd play pizzicato. I inadvertently found this out only after I had my fretboard planed. The buzzing occurred again after I added the pinstripe tape. In response to the comment below:
affirmed my use of pinstriping.
I few months again, I finally bought a fretless electric bass, because of my double bass ability, I have no trouble playing a fretless, yeah!
Nice!
Great video and topic.
I always liked using pencil for the exact reason that you called a con. It rubs off. When I would perform a piece with a large shift that made me nervous, I would use an indiscreet pencil line on the finger board during practice sessions and let it wear off. By the time of the performance, I would usually feel more secure about the shift.
Recently, I had inlays put into my neck. Due to an accident, my neck broke in 1/2. I brought it to Gencarelli Bass Works to have it repaired and Brian graciously let me borrow a bass that had inlays. My first gig with it was backing up a Queen cover band. I literally could not hear myself over the massive P.A. system. Those inlays got me through the gig. Seeing such notable performers as Edgar Meyer and Lauren Pierce use them made me feel less ashamed to have them as well. The one thing I changed was that I asked to have the inlays marked the same way they would be on a bass guitar. I also play that instrument and it made more sense to my brain. I LOVE it. I have found that you can't be TOO reliant on it as the inlays aren't perfect.
I don't regret having the surgery, especially since Frank (my bass) was already having a major operation. :)
That's a good way to think about it!
My experience with marking the fingerboard: I was having to play in front of audiences right from the first week of taking up the double bass (I'd played bass guitar for several decades).
I found that having marks allowed me to play with more confidence and assuredness.
To my mind, the most important thing was what the audience was going to hear, and a confidently played note sounds worlds away from a tentatively played one.
By the time you realise that your intonation was ok, it's too late...that note is gone.
I recently upgraded to a new bass, and haven't got around to marking it yet.
But I'm finding that my intonation without the markings has improved dramatically, as a certain amount of muscle memory has developed. I have a fair idea of what each position should feel like, in my arm and hand and shoulder.
I'm sure this is purely because the marks allowed me to play consistently in the right places.
That’s awesome-thanks for sharing!
I know, I know . . . this is all about the bass : ) But I once heard Yo-Yo Ma say that his cello is not always perfectly in tune when he plays! This obviously comes from a living legend of the instrument but I believe it demonstrates how a good musician can "adjust", on the fly so to speak, to micro changes in his or her instrument's intonation due to variations in temperature and environment etc, or for that matter, adapt quickly to a new set up on your instrument or even a new or different instrument all together! That is why IMHO, IF and when one CAN depend less and less on visual aids, one can become a more "solid" player. LOVE your videos, Jason!
Thanks, David-good perspective on this!
That’s cool. But you do understand that those markings are just reference points, right? Nobody is making you stop the string on the mark. You adjust to the instrument on a day to day basis if need be.
Edgar Meyer’s 1769 Gabrielli bass has dots. Gary Willis plays with fret lines and dots. Are they not masters of their instrument? Or are they not solid, because they have access to visual aids?
@@Peter-ff1tp Yes actually I DO understand they are reference points and if you read my comment,I write the masters are able to adjust on the fly so to speak - SOME masters, as you say, do have reference lines and dots - they probably very rarely actually HAVE to LOOK at them. If by chance they do HAVE to look at them to "find their place" on the fretboard it makes me wonder a wee bit :-)
Actually I had marks like that on wood when I get my second hand double bass. But now at the 2year of learning I realise they are not enough and I ready to make additional with metal glue stripe to make it removable
That's a good way to do it!
Thanks Jason, good topic. Nothing wrong with marking the fingerboard. Whatever helps you to play better. It's all very well to say "develop your hearing", but half of the time in the orchestra you simply CAN'T hear yourself, for starters, especially when you have the percussion right behind you, or the trombones blowing into your ears. A pianist occasionally looks at his keyboard, a guitarist does look at his fingerboard every once in a while. Also, not every player has the same tactile facility. I had many students who had an excellent ear and outstanding musicality, but who still had some difficulty with "motorics". However hard you work, there is always an element of innate ability that is stronger in some people than in others. I also had students who didn't need to "develop their hearing" in order to have pinpoint accuracy in pitch.Let's not be purists or holier than the pope, let's not invent "rules" that must apply to everyone. And besides, whatever's good enough for Edgar Meyer (and a huge number of other fantastic players) is good enough for me :-)
That's a great way to think about it, Korneel!
I've started many students from age 11 to adult on the bass over the last 40 years, and I concluded years ago that marks ON the fingerboard (under or next to the strings) only leads to a disfunctional eye/hand relationship rather than the desired ear/hand connection that ultimately leads to solid pitch. Using such marks can also lead to neck or back issues because efforts to see the fingerboard while playing takes your body out of natural alignment. Lastly, tape left on the fingerboard for weeks, months or years can be very difficult to clean off. Regarding inlays on the fingerboard, they are decorative, but check with your luthier before you have it done. He/She may no longer want to dress your fingerboard once you install the inlays.
Here's what I recommend instead. Mark the E string edge of the fingerboard with dots placed where you find them on the guitar or electric bass (frets 3, 5, 7, 9 and 12). I use file folder dots you can buy at Office Depot. Some students add more permanent marks with something like white-out or water soluable paint. Try it first to make sure it can be easily cleaned off. These marks provide some security while still promoting healthy ear/hand relationship. Most students let the dots go after about a year.
Good advice!
Almost to afraid to mention ..but OK I will be brave , I had my Luthier put dots on the finger board (special machine drilled holes into the fingerboard and they inlaid Mother of Pearl dots from the D to the D on the G string ) and it's really helped me, in the beginning.
BUT now I am at the stage whee I wonder if I should not have had this procedure done ??
Maybe just a row of dots on the octave just to help you transition into thumb would have sufficed?
It’s a great help for lots of folks! I don’t think that there’s a right/wrong way on this one.
Thank you for posting this. I find from some intense practice moments that no marks on the fingerboard is the way to go. Oddly just keeping my eyes on the music allows me to play more in tune. If I look at the bass during practice, I stop listening to tuning. I agree (sort of) that above the octave marking C and E might be of value. The notion of marking primary positions seems to mess up my thinking : we should be training our ears to hear pitches, not relying on our eyes for tuning. This makes me think of a job I was playing where my parts were all written . The minute we began to play, the lighting was so faint that I couldn't see my instrument, much less the music, so training your listening is the key. Don't rely on being able to see anything, besides how are you going to watch the conductor ?
Nice!
I can smell a C sharp.
Ha-I love it!
I have a few dots like Edgar.
They work well!
When you are sight reading you can't really see the markers all that well. I would think you could get away with an even more minimal set of markings if you really insist on doing so. Maybe D on the G string, then G and perhaps C and D above G. When you have markers I think you do tend to rely on them a bit even if you have the muscle memory and ear recognition down. It seems like you are better off not starting out this way because, just like everybody else you will eventually learn how to do it without markers, albeit some days you might still mess up a jump that you usually nail. I also play fretless bass guitar. I started out with lines on this from day 1 since I wanted to be able to use it right away. Over time my muscle memory and ear kicked in more so I didn't look most of the time, but it was very handy for doing large shifts so I don't regret having lines on it. I will admit it took a few years to start being able to visualize the upright fretboard to "see the notes". At first it looked like a 3-4 half steps of known area followed by a vast wasteland of mystery until I hit the 4 half steps in thumb position at the octave..Now there is still some mystery in some positions especially going above C on the G string.....
That would work also-good idea!
STUPIDLY detailed comment incoming, I truly apologize for the length of this XD:
Intonation is really important to remember with this: If you make a mark at a specific spot on the fingerboard, it will only be in tune with the string that you tested it with. To see this in real time, tune your bass perfectly, then put a piece of tape across the entire fingerboard where you mark thumb position A on the G string. Then play a thumb position E on the D string right next to it and tune it perfectly with the tuner. On even a well intonated instrument, the tape will PROBABLY have to angle against the fingerboard in order to be in the correct spot for a perfectly in tune E. Repeat for B and F# on the A and E strings. You will see that each of those 4 notes has it's own specific spot that doesn't necessarily line up with the other strings. This is why, when I mark the fingerboard, I do 4 separate lines for each of those notes, in pencil.
This also doesn't even get into building chords as an orchestra, where the same note will be in a different spot depending on the context of the note in the chord of the ensemble. If you are playing an E and the orchestra is playing a C# minor chord, that same E will need to be retuned for an E minor chord. Using your ears in this case is pretty much your only option, though if you understand this, a line CAN be a decent reference for general placement. It will just be unreliable when trying to be REALLY perfect about intonation.
I teach beginner strings, and I use tapes for beginners who are still learning how positions work. In this case, intonation is the least of my problems, I'm ONLY trying to teach them the general position of their hand. That being said, even young students who have been playing for a couple years will tell me that they don't even pay attention to the lines anymore. ALSO, on top of that, as the wood of an instrument ages or expands/contracts with the seasons, the placement of the notes will change. Therefore, a line that has been on your instrument for maybe 6 months has the chance of being totally in the wrong spot, leading to out of tune playing when using them to reference notes. You HAVE to recheck them every once in a while to make sure they aren't misleading you.
At the end of the day, if you take it all into account, there's no problem with marking the fingerboard, but you have to understand all the pitfalls, and there are more than you might think. In terms of intonation, the MUCH better option is practicing your shifts slowly and methodically over the course of years using drone pitches to tune to. If you are in a pinch trying to audition on Ein Heldenleben or something stupid like that, yeah ok, mark it up, ha.
Thanks for the explanations. Very detailed and correct indeed. Any professional bass player knows this, though. Fingerboard markers are not in each and every case meant to be hyper-precise, they're just indicators of a "ball park". When you have to play different basses (personally i have nine) in different tunings and set-ups, with steel or gut strings, with or without frets, different string lengths, different number of strings, different places where to find the D on the G-string, to name but a few variables, having some indications as to where to locate certain important geographical points can be a great help. Nobody said you have to take these markings as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Of course you don't. And in the end, like John Lennon sings: "whatever gets you through the night, it's all right". Or words to that effect.
Sometimes i have markings all over the bass, in different colors too. Very flashy. Then again, i spend at least an hour a day practising scales and arpeggios on an unfretted double bass in a pitch-dark (pun intended) room, with drone tracks, just in order to keep my tactile and kinetic abilities in shape. Sometimes markings annoy me, they can indeed get in the way of a fluid playing style, and then i just take them off. Sometimes i use them just to re-orient my spatial awareness: what could be "wrong" with using as many of our senses as possible when practising or playing?
As always, a bit of common sense goes a long way. Sure, one can ask, why use markings? Why use drones? Why use a mirror? Because sometimes we need all the help we can get, whether it's only temporary or permanently.
Have a great year 2022, all the best!
Agreed!
This is great! Thanks for taking the time to map all of this out for folks. Very helpful and interesting!
I was not only taught that it was cheating to mark the fingerboard on your bass, but that it was totally cheating to "compose" your solos,(which are supposed to be improvised) before you actually improvise your solos "on the fly". All the cats from my neighborhood would totally tease you if they knew you were playing a solo that you worked out before hand.
Seriously I think it's cheating the fact that there is no video upload that I have ever been able to find of you actually playing the double bass.
One octave scales/arpeggios, that is as far as one can watch you play?
Please share a link of you actually playing any piece at all?
You can talk. Can you play, as well?