Frigate Duels of the War of 1812 - USS United States vs HMS Macedonian
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Today we take a look at the second true frigate duel of the War of 1812, with more to come!
00:00:00 - Intro
00:01:55 - United States vs Macedonian
Episode 1 (Constitution vs Guerriere) - • Frigate Duels of the W...
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
With all battlecruisers sunk and/or scrapped, what is the largest remaining piece of a battlecruiser that can be found above the surface? For example a coastal battery or a museum exhibit.
Why did the ironclad hms Northumberland (1868) have so many masts in its original configuration I've seen pictures with it having 5 atleast! I know steam engines were in their infancy but this many masts seems excessive no?
A lot has been made about how the American ships carried heavier guns in these ship duels. Would you say that overconfidence among British captains, and the substandard gunnery of the Halifax/Bermuda squadrons played a greater role?
The latest issue of the magazine *_LOS_* had an article on the "4 lives of the INJ cruiser Kitakami", made famous by it's staggering 40 torpedo tube armament. This got me thinking: apart from dedicated AAA cruisers, do you know of any ship with such a single minded mission, successful or not?
I had convinced my cousin to watch Master and Commander the other night (which she liked by the way) and when we got to bit in the film where the crew of Suprise are putting bands on their arm to tell Friend from Foe she asked what they were doing and i explained, but it got me wondering was their any agreed upon way to tell Friend from Foe in this time period or was it just make it up as you went?
"the President and Congress sailed together." Which was probably the last time the President and Congress acted together to achieve a common goal
I was thinking the exact same thing. :)
@@timstatler7714 Well, it was early years and the President and Congress still had many years of cooperating left, but yeah, it seems hard to believe now.
Brilliant comment 😂
Well if you actually discount the modern Republicans, believe it or not the president and congress has been the most effective in our entire history under democrats rule....as a lifelong conservative myself, where of where the fck is our true all American HONEST Republicans like Adam kinzinger and he'll even Liz Cheney....trump and maga are the worst in our entire history not to mention TRAITORS thru and thru
God, those first-generation American frigates! They are some of the most beautiful ships to ever fly our flag.
I’ve been aboard all four Iowas, and I’ve been aboard the USS Constitution for the Bicentennial ….. and yes, I’ve seen the immortal HMS Victory in Portsmouth, as well.
The Connie is a proper cathedral of wood, canvas, and rope.
It has its own stand of oak, owned by the Navy to keep her repaired.
@@CorePathway * White Oak is used for the planking and knees.... and Live Oak is used in the vertical framing. Both are in the populace of the 50,000-acre old growth forest managed by Naval Support Activity Crane, where the Navy sources replacement lumber for the USS Constitution
@@jpx1508 That is great the US had the foresight I don't think the Brits did.
😊😊😊😊😊😊
In 1812, HMS Macedonian was captured and became USS Macedonian. In 1861, the Confederate States of America captured Norfolk and USS United States, which they renamed CSS United States. The following year, she was sunk buy the Confederates and then captured by the United States, whereapon she was renamed USS United States. Ironies abound.
is ironies a nickname for ironclads? 😂
Also I think at one point the British captured a ship (USS President?) renamed it HMS and when it was finally decommissioned they built a whole new copy and named it the same thing just to rub it in the USN's faces a little harder
@@lightwalker222 actually this was pretty similar case, with the USS Macedonia. absloutly, atleast probably done to show of the ship and rub and others face, it was basically completely rebuilt, only using part of the keel and decorational ornaments, in 1836. this is due primarily budgets, USN was given set budget and only number of ships allowed they could, so they would commonly build ship put in dry dock (they last longer in dry dock) until ready then take a piece or 2 from an old ship some times a mast, in other ships cases. This might have been done with British Parliament course I doubt they were as stingy with building new ships.
now even funnier it was kind of don't ask don't tell situation, the public knew, the navy obviously knew they were doing it, and congress knew. but nobody cared really ever.
@@lightwalker222 when the war of 1812 was over and the USN was sailing past Gibraltar The RN would sail out a Ship of the Line and have the smaller ship lower its flag to the superior ship It was a custom of the day I believe
@@lightwalker222 "indeed " The new British President was built using her American predecessor's exact lines for reference, as a reminder to the United States of the capture of their flagship - a fact driven home by President being assigned as the flagship of the North America and West Indies Station in the western Atlantic Ocean under the command of Admiral Sir George Cockburn (1772-1853)" according to the second President's wikipedia page so yeah thats some irony i would say.
I have never heard the first pronunciation used for Decatur. Certainly, the long A pronunciation is what the Decatur House Museum in Washington, D.C. uses.
I agree.
Agree and I am abt 15 miles from Decatur's-long A- birthplace.
And Decatur, Illinois.
After the War of 1812, USS Macedonian (38 guns)(Captain Jacob Jones) served again under now Commodore Stephen Decatur in the Mediterranean this time against our old "friends" of the Barbary states, Algeria in particular. She assisted in the taking of Algerian frigate Mashuda in company with USS Constellation (38,) USS Guerriere (Flagship) (44) and two sloops of war.
After this war USS Macedonian was a busy girl, going on to serve in not only the Med but also the Atlantic and Pacific protecting American merchantmen for several years before being finally decommissioned in October 1828 and broken up at the Norfolk Navy Yard.
And the R/N would make each of those ships sailing past Gibraltar lower their flags to The larger Ship of the Line that the R/N kept there for that very purpose.. If they could not beat you one way they tried another
Drac, thanks for reviewing these very classic and iconic frigate battles. I especially enjoy the readings of first hand accounts and the objective, unbiased descriptions of the captains and the ships themselves. Great work!! I'm looking forward to the Chesapeake/Shannon duel and the Capture of the USS President. Thanks again!
HMS vs USS ? Got wine, cheese, nice plate of charcuterie with a good bread... Go Drach, Frenchs are ready for your video 😉 Thanks again for your work!
Meanwhile, USS United States would be captured by the Confederacy in 1862 and renamed CSS United States, but only used as a receiving ship.
@@ronmaximilian6953 it was an old ship by then.
@@kane357lynchyou mean wooden hulls sitting in the water for 70+ years aren’t in their prime anymore 😮. Yeah the super frigates were perfectly designed for the war of 1812. Well past their prime in 1861.
@@Alopen-xb1rb And facing obliteration in 1815 The Royal Navy was off the leash and looking for revenge.
@@jacktattis Revenge for what? The US only declared war because the Royal Navy was being a jackass on the high seas and kept pressing American sailors into service against their will. It’s not like the Royal Navy could take New Orleans or Baltimore.
UK fighting Napoleon in France was one thing. Wanting to invade the US was another thing entirely. Wars are expensive and Britain had fought a lot of them by 1815. When they couldn’t get past Fort McHenry or conquer New Orleans it’s safe to say Britain knew it was never going to get anywhere in North America without a very serious investment of resources.
Napoleon was gone and the US was no threat to Britain at the time. They knew good and well when to peace out. You have to realise Britain took every single major population center between 1776 and 1783 and still lost the revolutionary war. Anyways, No one ever expected 6 Frigates to stop the entire Royal Navy. Just to be enough of a pain in the rear end. And in that aspect they did very, very well.
Being home ported out of New London, CT I can confirm it is very tricky to enter with any manner of Northerly wind, especially for a square rigged ship. Shallow shoals and rocky ledges are on both sides of the entrance, making most approaches rather acute.
Men from opposing factions finding common ground...despite trying to kill the other mere moments before. Makes you appreciate the spirit of those who go into combat. It also shows the utter folly of wars, and the great disconnect between those in power and those they send to die in those wars.
Reminds me of the Christmas truce in no mans land between Allied and German troops in WWI, both sides rank and file were so heart sick and tired of the pointless killing and death at that point. War is horrible, and anyone who wishes for it sadly have no idea what horrors they pining for. While it might be necessary sometimes, it should never be something we look forward to IMO.
@@Arphalia
Indeed. Wars are the playgrounds of psychopaths. It's also the way they keep their populations in check so they can maintain power; specifically the bankers.
What. No! The US And Great Britain are culturally similar. This kind of respect did not happen between the US and Empire of Japan. War is one of the many natural States of Primates. Get over yer self.
From all the documentaries I've watched, and stories I've heard, I've come to the conclusion that, by and large, professional (as in conduct, not whether they are paid) soldiers respect professional soldiers.
It's rare that a story puts both extremes into context and contrast as well as this video. :(
The colors of the ship are still in Mahan Hall academic building at US Naval Academy , Annapolis , Md.
Regarding the captain of the HMS Macedonian retaining the weather gauge, this was RN doctrine. It allowed an RN captain to retain the combat initiative and matched the RN preference for shots aimed at the hull. Since Macedonian would be heeled over by the wind, her guns would be pointed towards the water while the enemy vessel's cannons would be tilted up towards the sky. The French navy doctrine was to accept being up leeward and then aim at the enemy's masts and rigging, instead of the hull.
It was RN doctrine up to the mid 18th century, by this point the RN had moved to being happy to engage in the Lee as well, largely thanks to work by and around the time of Admiral Hawke.
@@Drachinifel admiral Hawke is so underrated un historical accounts of this nature
I love Leech's comment about having seen more than enough fighting on the Sabbath. Like a customer service agent that would complain about the amount of work that arrives on their weekend shift.
My great great grandfather did blockade duty on the USS Macedonian (same ship) He was rigger who had been in the Royal Navy previous to immigrating to Boston.
this was a good one, though not as well known (at least in the states) as the battles involving the USS Constitution, it was still a captivating story especially with the first person account by the crewman of the Macedonian. his account gave life to the story, it was almost like watching a movie of it. good show!
Maybe at some point, you could talk about 'hogbacking' due to over carrying guns and how this affected ship performance.
Joshua Humphrey's design and the use of Live Oak for ribs was the strength of these first six frigates. The Chesapeake notwithstanding
Thank you drach have a good weekend mate 👍
I'm loving this series. The dioramas are a big help in visualizing the actions. They'd be even better if you added an arrow showing the wind direction so we could understand the maneuvers better.
As always, as my Da said - timing is everything..
Love these series. Thank you!
I sure am enjoying these War of 1812 videos (OK, I enjoy all of you videos). Thank you so very much. Looking forward to the next one.
Awesome video, really like to see these battle breakdowns, especially with the first hand accounts you've researched.
I'm really enjoying this series. I don't know a lot about the 1812 war and your narratives are superb.
Ian Toll's THE SIX FRIGATES details the US's design and building of the most advanced warships in the world at that time, great book.
Superseded by the R/N razee not long after the USN had shown its superiority with the 50 gun FRIGATES
Thanks drach for another informative video.
Very informative video, this has brought back memories of the 1st large model ship, and 1st sailing vessel i built, uss united states, i can't remember the scale, but i remember when it was done, dad took it over and displayed it in the living room. He had me take a picture of him with her. Haven't thought of that in years. Thank you.
Most interesting, thanks Drach.
A few things about Decatur: He actually supervised construction of the USS United States as a civilian shipyard employee, and then served aboard her as a midshipman. One of "Preble's Boys", he was part of the clique that established the fighting tradition of the infant Navy. I have been to a few of the many places in the U.S. named after the Commodore, and I have never heard it pronounced any way other than Dee-kay-ter.
Here on the eastern shore of MD where he is from people pronounce it Da-Kay-Tur, but i have also heard Dek-a-teur
Do you know about the Macedonian
Monument at the U.S. Naval Academy ?
It consists of the figurehead of the ship Alexander The Great.
It was repaired in 2014.
Seen it :)
it also has 4 18-pounder long guns from the Macedonian, fun to see the crown crest on the guns.
Very interesting and nicely done Video. Thank you
Thanks Drach.
This is a great series
Stephen Decatur is buried mere blocks away from my house in Philadelphia. For what that’s worth.
6:30 Hi Drach! This American sailor who was forced to fight his own countrymen on HMS Macedonian, did he volunteer for RN service, or was he press-ganged into the Royal Navy? Also, how vigorous were the press gangs generally during the War of 1812, was the tradition starting to die off by this point?
Volunteers exceed press gang by a considerable margin on most ships, and foreign press ganged sailors were rarer still. So most likely he was a volunteer, American volunteers weren't uncommon and a good number of sailors in the USN in the War of 1812 had previous RN experience.
@@Drachinifel
One of the causes of the War of 1812
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812
was the pressing of American Sailors - at sea - who the British Believed to be British Sailors - into the RN. The stopping of American ships and pressing of members of their crews was not appreciated by the Former Colonies while the ex-Mother Country tended to claim the men were deserters.
A number of American Sailors had experience with the RN - but - claimed to have completed their service.
Each side disputed the reasoning of the other.
.
Most likely he was pressed. The impressment of American Sailors was a causus belli for the War of 1912. The fact that he objected to fighting his countrymen shows his national inclinations. If he had taken the King's Shilling willingly, he would have had a more mercenary attitude towards fighting ex-fellow Americans. Any after-the-fact declaration to the contrary is Hanoverian propaganda.
@@DrachinifelAnd when the Royal Navy found them on American ships that were trying to run the British blockade of France, they, shall we say, repatriated them.
@@HootOwl513It was a feeble causus belli at best. The War Hawks thought they saw an opportunity to conquer the rest of North America while Britain was busy with Napoleon. "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching; & will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, & the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 4 August 1812, one month after the U.S. declared war. Not a peep about press gangs or the indignities imposed not just on American ships but on any that tried to avoid the British blockade of France.
I love these stories.
If you're gonna name a ship after your country, you better make sure you win. It's quite the flex and losing is not only the loss of the ship but serious prestige. While this encounter went towards the US, how many instances are there of a navy losing a ship named after their nation?
This was, as I recall, the reason Hitler ordered the Deutschland-class panzerschiffe to be renamed. You could also say the sinking of Yamato qualifies for this, since "Yamato" is often used as a synonym for Japan as a whole.
@@InchonDM Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
It blows my mind that countries still do this
the French and the British quite enjoyed naming their ships “America” even after they gained Independence, dunno why though.
@@sanjithd3343 Strictly speaking, only the last HMS America was given that name after the revolution. The second to last one, was named by the french after a ship the us gave them, and promptly renamed when the british captured it because the third to last was still in commission. The third to last ship had been ordered before the revolution.
When it comes to Frigates and the war of 1812..it will always be defined by the most formidable Frigate that ever existed...The USS Constitution..Old Ironsides herself
😄You might want to ask the French 74 gun ship of the line, Le Droits de L'Homme about the Royal Navy frigate HMS Indefatigable.
Excellent
This is the second video from the War of 1812 playlist I want to see. Again, I've read enough, especially Theodore Roosevelt's book, but I want to hear Drach's commentary and watch the reenactment.
When Royal Navy Captain Carden surrendered, he thought he was the first British officer to surrender his ship to the enemy since the last time that happened, it was over 20 years ago. In other words, the Royal Navy fighting the nascent USN had "victory disease" - the concept that "we can't lose because we have never lost before". Same was the IJN at Midway.
Fascinating.
Never heard the term "US super frigate" before but I like it. Those original ships were very special to the US Navy, even with the inglorious fate some of them suffered
It was apt. They were larger, faster, and more strongly built than other nations' frigates. There was basically nothing a lone British frigate captain could do but try to run if encountering one.
Joshua Humphreys, the shipwright who designed Constitution, Constellation, and United States, basically took the concept of a "razee" - a small two-decker usually of sixty-ish guns with the upper gun deck removed to leave just the heavy lower guns - and built three of them from the keel up without bothering with the intermediate step of building a fourth-rate ship first. At the time, he would have been aware of the exploits of HMS Indefatigable, a Royal Navy razee that basically bullied everything she encountered.
Where Humphreys diverged from the pattern of "merely" building a razee from the keel up was the length-to-beam ratio of the hulls and some minor but vital adjustments to shape of that hull below the water line. He also chose to deliberately maintain the framing of a much larger ship, despite the extra cost of the material, and to make that framing entirely of Southern Live Oak, a choice that very nearly killed the project - and Humphreys - before the ships were even laid down. To support his longer hull and help reduce "hogging", he developed a new form of transverse bracing of his own design.
The result were three heavy frigates that, even carrying their intended main battery of eighteen pounders, were formidable examples of a "fifth-rate" frigate, and when up-armed with twenty-four pounders were absolutely terrifying. They were also much tougher than comparable Royal Navy ships, and able to bounce or shed even heavy shot off their hulls when angled.
They did require some very careful planning when being rigged, though. I read in Ian W. Tolls's "Six Frigates" that Constitution was initially considered a terrible ship due to her clumsy handling and low speed. This changed when - iirc - Captain Isaac Hull took command and had her comprehensively re-rigged, re-stepping all her masts, changing the angle of their rake, and overhauling her sail plan. The result was a complete change in her behavior under sail, to the detriment of her future opponents.
@@christopherreed4723 I agree with everything you said, but I will point out that the diagonal bracing were a British invention made by the architect Robert seppings. Humphreys was simply first to utilize it the way he did.
Moreover, the “bouncing of heavy shot” is effectively a myth, perhaps a few 9 pounders were deflected in the action against guerriere, however no 18 pounders were getting stopped by the armor.
Makes you think of the concept of the battlecruiser.
@@sanjithd3343 Thanks for the clarification on the diagonal bracing. I know the concept was taken a good deal farther after the Napoleonic Wars to create designs that had an even greater length to beam ratio than Constitution, although not by much. The development of steam propulsion and shell-firing guns then took naval design kn other directions.
I also agree with the "bouncing shot" issue. Live Oak framing and an unusually long time to season (while Congress cut funds until the Barbary pirates became an issue) are why Constitution survived long enough to be preserved. They were *not* ever going to stop anything bigger than a twelve-pounder, and even that only at long range.
The Vasa Museum in Sweden sponsored a series of test firings of one of Vasa's twenty-four pounder guns. A while back. The videos are on TH-cam, or were last time I looked. One of the targets they used was a carefully reproduced section of Vasa's own hull, including full-weight framing and planking. Even though the gun was an early design and less powerful than a gun of the late 1700s (slightly shorter barrel and more windage between the shot and the bore), it blew clean through the frames. I'd guess that Vasa's 24s are going to be roughly equivalent in hitting power to an 18-pounder of the late 1700s.
Poictiers is just another way of spelling the more usual Poitiers. The C is silent.
Drach you mentioned here, and in other videos, that several captured ships were often "paraded" in front of their former owners. Are there any ships the were repatriated or swapped for similar captured ahip post conflict?
I like the way the presenter appraises so perceptively and fairly the performances of the ships, captains and crews. We Americans like to remember how we "trounced" the Brits in duels like Constitution vs. Guerriere, ignoring the advantages our larger, more heavily armed frigatese enjoyed in most of these battles. What makes these battles memorable s that both sides fought with a skill, stamina and courage that does honor to both nations.
It's hardly a "fun" topic for a Fun Friday, but have you considered covering the full history of the Seven _Invincibles?_ It will never stop being incredible to me that the Royal Navy kept naming ships Invincible after repeatedly losing them in wrecks or catastrophic battle loss.
But setting that part aside, that could be interesting, I think -- covering the shared history of ships carrying on the same name, since most navies have some that have been repeated for decades or centuries.
@InchonDM I find RN naming system great. They do held tradition. USN modern system of politicians, States and cities is quite boring. BTW USN did built second Macedonian in late 1830s. They used some keel timbers of the first one. It was done purely as snub to RN, to be able claim it was same ship, and continue signalling to British "USS Macedonian here". Since improved relations USN dropped that name later on...
@@kimmoj2570 Oh make no mistake, I'm no fan of naming capital ships after presidents. But naming a ship _Invincible_ is just spitting in Poseidon's eye, in my opinion. You're daring the sea to sink the thing at that point, and the sea has obliged for plenty of prior _Invincibles._
@@InchonDM Brits have/had marvellous ship names like: Revenge, Valiant, Vengeance, Dreadnought. Invincible is just small part RN naming system.
@@InchonDM Thank God the third Ford-class carrier will be next USS Enterprise.
She may not be lead ship of class, like (CV-6) was neither.
Ah.. just in right time
I just read book 6 of Aubrey-Maturin, where everyone in the RN is depressed about the losses, so these videos are perfectly timed. :-)
Y'know, with the new Constellation class frigates in the pipeline there's a golden opportunity to commission a new USS Macedonian and resume our traditional trolling of the Royal Navy.
The british may return the favor by commissioning a new hms president.
HMS Chesapeake
Unless the insult of an American who often defeated the British is intentional, "Duh · kay · tr" is the American pronunciation of Decatur. There is no "second" American pronunciation. @3:45. Type "Decatur pronunciation" in any Google search box and Google will provide an audible example of the correct pronunciation.
Notable to this telling, at age 25, Decatur was the youngest man to reach the rank of captain in the history of the United States Navy.
So, these were the first "Fire and Frigate" weapons?
ISWYDT
Very clever, cheers!
Hahahaha, nice play on words there.
As an idea for Fun Friday I would like to recommend the Action of August 1702.
Drach, with respect, I like your docs but would greatly enjoy seeing a wind direction arrow and also see the models' yardarms trimmed as they would have been on all points of sail.
As a sailor, I can picture what it should look like, but I have been told it is confusing to some folks.
Thanks and cheers
I'm trying to find a decent model wind arrow and compass rose :)
I'm sure this has been asked before, but where do the beautiful ship models you use in these Videos come from?
How common was it for wooden warships to be struck by lightening? What are some notable instances? And what could be done to mitigate the risk?
Lightning rods with chain or cable to the waterline
I know of a 32 gunner which got struck by lightning, don't recall anything bad happening to the ship though, just a cool story.
Stephen Decatur Jr. Was born on the Eastern Shore of Maryland (Sinepuxent), and was the youngest person ever to reach the rank of captain in the U.S. navy at just 25 after starting his naval career as a midshipman at 19. He later died in a duel with James Barron in 1820 due to his comments on the formers' handling of the Chesapeake Leopard affair
The United States Ship United States?
Fantastic video!
Personally, I weep for the dead. What a stupid war.
I know that good Captains practiced gunnery during this time but I wonder if it was a thing to have mock battles with other ships to practice maneuvers ect. Also did they practice Fleet engagements in the same way. Obviously without firing live rounds at each other but maybe taking down various sail based on a referees call.
RN skippers, at least, had to pay for powder and shot expended in training. The very definition of "Penny wise and pound foolish"
Fun fact: at the end of her career, the “United states” was briefly commissioned into the confederate navy.
Sadly to her honor
Roll on the SHANNON!
The quality of ships and its captains and crews are not linear.
The real war was for the British, with Napoleon and reaching its climax.
Matters moved on when better ships were sent. Always a secondary conflict, it proved an expensive
draw. For both sides.
I have never heard the pronunciation Dack-a-tur.
I drummed up ideas for a US First rate, the Continental class of warships. Think I made em 98 gun first rates with an emphasus on amazing damage control.
It i s sad to note that we once built mighty warships like those "super frigates" and now we are reduced to building junk like the LCS class. At the end of WWII we ranked first in ship building capacity, we now rank 19th.
"we're blown away.strike the colors!"never!we'll
strike our bunting."
British sailors on being repatriated were asked if the American shot penetrated the hull their response was, yes it did and it went out the other side.
Ah, War of 1812, age of sail fans are eatin good.
Every city in the United States named for Decatur ends up getting its name pronounced dee-CAY-tur. I was born and raised in the one in Illinois. No clue about the man himself.
If I’m not mistaken the namesakes are all a few hundred miles inland.
The photo at 4:00 looks inverted, but I guess it’s too late to correct now.
Just taken from a weird angle 😀
Your first pronunciation was no doubt correct, but you’re right that in America the second pronunciation you gave is how 99% of Americans say it. There are many towns here named Decatur.
Super Frigate because 'Merica
Dee Kate Ter
Never heard the first pronunciation!!!
Agreed. Illinois has a city named Decatur, that I have worked in . The only other state I know that has a Decatur is Georgia, I never spent time around there to hear how it's pronounced, but I bet it's similar. "Decca-Tour" sounds like a tour of a old record company 😀
😢DRACH, as I've been watching some British, Irish, and Scottish shows on BritBox. I'd struggle far worse with their pronunciation of the towns and cities!
@@Internutt2023 it depends on who you ask, on the television it’s d’kāy tuhr. With emphasis on the ā. Resided in JawJah for nigh on a decade. I was taught though that the guy Stephen Decatur said it D’kah tur
de KAY tur
7:02 Do you mean the wind was north-northwesterly? As far as my own sailboat racing experience and anything I can quickly look up says, wind direction is based on the direction it's blowing *from,* not blowing to. From your description of this fight and a diagram of it I found, the wind was clearly blowing from north to south in this case, so a north-northwesterly wind.
never heard the name of my town said that way in my life lol we call it "de-kay-tur"
✌
I am almost willing to bet that you won;t show HMS Shannon and USS Chesapeak
Well, I'm covering the duels in chronological order...
To use some anachronistic terminology, HMS Macedonian was a "Heavy Frigate" while USS United States was a "Pocket Ship of the Line" or, perhaps more appropriately, "Large Frigate". I classify "Light Frigates" as 6th Rates having 12 pounder main batteries, "Heavy Frigates as 5th Rates armed with 18 pounders and "Large/Super Frigates" (depending on my mood) as 4th Rates with 24 pounders.
BTW, it took me a couple of my teenage years to figure out that "Macedonian" was a reference to Alexander the Great. Subsequently, I learned her figurehead was an image of great conqueror.
The Humphries Frigates would have been considered 4th rates, which had generally been Razees prior (3rd or 2nd rate ships of the line with the upper gun deck removed to produce a lighter ship). The RN 50 gun 4th rates were the closest equivalents.
The RN did have some earlier 44's, as well as the modified Leda class after the War of 1812, but they were 18 pounder armed 5th rates.
DEE Kater! (says the Yankee historian from the Philly area!)
This would make an awesome movie like Master and Commander. I always thought that film was a little bit misleading because it always seemed like the English had better gunners and the French seemed to be incompetent cannon fodder during every engagement. Instead of all the superhero mumbo jumbo BS this would make a very interesting movie. Much more realistic than all the Pirates of the Carribean sword play where no one ever gets stabbed. At the same time might actually have the kids learn some positive history at the same time.
Ah yes, the United States Ship United States
Not sure what Macedonian carried, but United States had 24 pounder long guns and 42 pound carronades. She mustve dished out a pounding.
Why did British ships have American sailors on board during the war? I assume they didn't go recruit French sailors before Trafalgar. Why were Americans in the royal navy at all, even without the countries at war?
One of the alleged causes of the War of 1812 was the British practice of pressing US citizens from merchantmen, even going to the lengths of stopping neutral-flag shipping to "inspect" for such sailors, on the grounds that they were really British and therefore fair game. This practice was much-exaggerated by those in the US who wanted to start a war so we could complete the "easy" conquest of Canada.
With a lot of deserted Brits in the crews the cowboys had the same drill like their British opponents. So, it was useless for British commanders to seek the battle against superiour ships...
It was so great snub to the nose to catch and put to own service enemy warship that United States built second/rebuilt USS Macedonian using the keel of first one in 1830s. Just to be able continue signalling His/Her Majestys Ships: "USS Macedonian here".😅 😅😅
@kimmoj2570 Also RN liked to do same rubbing to French. Their Napoleonic era fleet had many ships with French names.
The Royal navy would do the same to the Americans by rebuilding the HMS president under the same lines as the captured ship, around the 1830s
Decatur - “Dee cAY Tur”. Cheers.
Samuel Leech the primary source for this fight saw the light and jumped ship in the US and joined the US Navy. 😅
Decatur, Alabama (named for Stephen Decatur) is pronounced de-KAY-tur.
The reference to the effect of splinters being greater than that of the cannonballs themselves answers those who claim their lethality has been exaggerated.
First - always on the blocks to get to uncle drach's storytime
Another british ship down in a 1 on 1 contest.
The british can only win when outnumbering their enemy, its a proven fact
The Old Covered Wagon beat on the Macedonia like Mike Tyson vs Ray Charles.
Not even fair but war never is.
War sucks for everyone.
It's interesting that even though this was an overwhelming tactical victory for the US Navy, the end result was a strategic success for the Royal Navy.
The only way the US Navy's handful of frigates could possibly challenge British supremacy at sea was to disrupt British trade, similar to the Kriegsmarine in World War II. In hindsight, US frigates simply had to avoid any fights with opponents even approaching them in strength; even if and when they prevailed, the need to bring the prize back into port took one of the frigates off of its cruising mission, which was the only place it could possibly make a real difference. In this case the British essentially traded a frigate for a frigate, since both ships were blockaded in port essentially for the rest of the war. The RN wouldn't love it, but they could take that exchange ratio all day against the tiny US fleet.
The Battle of the Denmark Strait was a similar example - decisive victory for Bismarck yet just the fact that now the Royal Navy's blood was up meant Bismarck had to run for safety.
It really makes me wonder what if the early United States had been far more bullish in naval construction how these decades would have played out
4th
It seems the USS United States was lucky to face a Captain with limited understanding of actually fighting and commanding a ship in battle.
I wonder what would have happened if you could magically handwave a replacement for Macedonian with HMS Indefagitable under Pellew, both in their prime.
That would have been a close fight!
"Pwok-tee-ay"
:)
Karen-ades. Lol. 🍻👍🏻