Had the War of 1812 gone on for longer and the Americans built their own freshwater first-rate to counter HMS St. Lawrence, how would the naval situation on Lake Ontario turn out?
raking fire is when they hit a ship from the bow or Stern. They're the weakest points on an old age of sail ship because they had those Open Spaces where everyone lived and had the artillery so there was nothing to stop the shots from going straight through. I hope that helps, but I'm hoping he'll answer this question because I would like his input as well😊
Former USS Constitution Museum employee here (again). One of the most impressive artifacts on display in the Museum is actually a result of this battle. If I recall correctly, while he was recuperating aboard the victorious USS Constitution, Lt Chads was approached by the first officer of the USS Constitution (A Lt. Parker, I think) with a request that they work together to figure out what happened in the confusing, twisting battle between the two vessels, with an eye towards making a copy for each of their nations. Chads agreed and the two eventually had created an after action report. Parker then made two clean, neat copies of the report (on paper with colored pencils) as a map of the battle showing the progress of the action. The American copy is there in the Museum, on display, in a special box, over two hundred years after the battle. I don't know what happened to Lt. Chad's copy, but hopefully as worst it is still someplace safe and awaiting discovery by some enterprising soul at the Admiralty.
I love Drach’s “inane ramblings” as he has such a unique way of stating things. Moreover, being an independent historian and, therefore his own small business, Drach needs to be able to pay his bills. The intro ad segments are easy to fast forward if one wants to jump right into the main content and is a small price to “pay” for truly quality programming.
As some of Drach's followers are well aware, there is a terrific (slightly) fictionalized account of the Constitution-Java battle in Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin novel The Fortune of War.
Aw Dangit... I just posted something simaler. (Shoulda read the other comments first.) Anyway, that IS a fantastic series, one which I reread every few years. The NY Times book review once called it the 'best historical fiction ever written.', etc. Cheers.
@@amh9494 what's your favorite book in the series? I lean towards 'The Ionian Mission', and 'Desolation Island' (other than the first book, anyway.) Cheers!
Fun fact drach at the time of the battle the Java was carrying copper sheets and plating for HMS Trincomalee which is now a museum ship and was also carrying plans for ship of the line HMS Cornwallis
I can picture the still standing sailors on HMS Java, manning the remaining guns, eyes fixed on the USS Constitution and going, sotto voce, "Closer...closer...".
Drach, thanks for doing these videos about the War of 1812 Frigate Duels. The War of 1812, as interesting as it was, has sadly been overshadowed by The Napoleonic Wars, The American Civil War, World War I, and World War II. It is because of this fact I believe that many young people today probably don't know why the U.S.S. CONSTITUTION has been preserved as a memorial
It was because it was far less important or dramatic. America becoming what America is today has made it more popular than actually should be. The American war of independence wasn't really that big of a deal in British history never mind 1812.
War of 1812 just part of Napoleonic Wars for the British of course not being a main theater mostly ignored and as US did not have a Navy to threaten England to the public I assume not that big a deal. Plus the American Revolution became the Bourbon War to England once France came in and like 1812 a minor theater compared with France. . But losing that much land and a war with the Revolution I would have to say British just did not want to think about it and the stupidity of Parliament that caused it. Refusal of seats just because the other side might be able to gain control of Parliament with the Colonies population it would not be that many seats. Although I do joke that having Parliament in that small of a space cost the British the Empire because they had no more space for seats. With seats the biggest gripe of the Americans would be over. Then ending the rules prohibiting the Colony from making fine clothing and goods would have lifted the other very taxing aggravation for the Colonies. Hostile to the colonies trade rules reduced the Colonies often having no currency to use having to resort to stuff like using bundles of Tobacco to trade. Note this unfavorable trade rules was a major factor that Gandhi used in hid campaign for India Independence. Gandhi spinning thread to make a point they should make their own clothing to address a very hostile trade imbalance and point out that the once thriving Indian textile industry known for a huge number of centuries had been ended by England. So I understand your point and as an American I often hit school American history classes for making such a big deal of not very important Frigate battles when the US was helpless to actually stop the British Navy overall. Both wars for US were the only thing for us but for the British they half lost in the conflicts with France of the same period. @@Englishman_and_mountains
The end of HMS Java; In Portsmouth NH there are a pair of guns set as gate posts for a private home. I last read the cast crest about 30 years ago, but I would sweat they were cast for HMS Java. They were smaller guns, less than 5 feet sticking out of the ground. If I can get down there again I will send photo's.
Even if some people go too far with that British order talked about at the end, the fact that they issued what they did is truly significant. It shows that yes, there are some rather strong American frigates. It also shows the Admiralty seeing that something wasn't working as intended and changing tack in a relatively short amount of time.
You know the funny thing is the admiralty could have made different choices and still been super effective. Could have spammed 64 or 74 gun razees if they wanted.
@@PaulfromChicagoThere was still a need to keep the 3rd rates in European waters to blockade the French ports. By the war of 1812, Napoleon had managed to rebuilt strong naval forces while much of the Royal Navy Battlefleet was worn down by the constant blockade duty.
USS Constitution: Surrender. HMS Java: Sorry old man, I don't think we will. USS Constitution: You've got no masts, no sails, you're on fire and your hull is full of holes. HMS Java: Alright, we'll call it a draw.
Your use of detailed models (being modified to reflect the state of a specific ship at a particular point in time), cotton balls for smoke, and very close photography, perfectly timed with your narration, has set a new standard for illustrating historic naval battles.
The dioramas are very good except that he should create a wind arrow, including any shifts that were reported. In addition, the yards of the ships could be turned to show them as they were trimmed(or backed to slow down or even hove to if thst is known). This is a normal function of sailors trying to draw out who did what etc. Racing sailors do it, collision cases do it, ALL captains do it when reporting a critical situation. Without knowing the wind an encounter is reduced to only manuver as if under power, with little explanation of how or why. And Drach, don't get me wrong I love you research and narrations. Cheers
From an American, thank you for teaching us how to operate a navy. We learned from the best. Also, I am grateful for our special relationship. You are the best ally we could ever hope for.
Constitution as built had a single wheel helm. After this engagement Java's double wheel helm was used to replace the wheel lost in the engagement. Constitution has used a double wheel ever since.
Publishing your scripts as articles is a great idea! But I will always listen rather than read; you have a fantastic speaking voice and I have these videos on in the background while working. You should look into being an audiobook narrator.
It's great to me that the USMC played a part in this battle. The branch that I served in played a part in keeping our oldest serving ship alive. I'm very proud of that. Having a shot of whiskey in honor of it.
Thank you for all of your effort Drach. As a historical sociologist I have an immense amount of respect for the time you clearly put into the accuracy, production value and depth of your impressive and growing corpus of work.
Yet another excellent video. USS Constitution was quite the hobby of mine 1/2 century ago even building the large 1:96 Revell model of her 2x (one being let behind in a family move).
The Chesapeake vs Shannon is exemplary in this regard: The HMS Shannon: "Please fight us. It is honorable, good sir!" Also HMS Shannon: "Fire at the gun deck, kill the gun crews."
Thank you for your great reports of our past history. I have always enjoyed them. When I was around 10 my Dad started building a sailboat for the family and I was helping him through the next 5 years. We read "Royce's Sailing Illustrated" to learn how to sail and built all the boat and trailer except the sails ourselves. One of the books my Dad had from his childhood was "Midshipman Davie Jones" a story of the life on the USS Constitution. I read it a few times back then and recently bought a Kindle copy to read again. Of course I have read many other books about the sea and find them interesting. Another good book published recently is "The Frigates" about the planning and building of the USS frigates and their stories. The "Midshipman Davie Jones" had some great illustrations of the ships and there equipment and the uniforms from both sides of the conflict. It's worth a look.
Me usually: ah yes. What a wonderful and unbiased account of this event. So professionally well done and spoken. Quite nice to see it laid out so clearly. Me during this series: WHOOOOOO!!!! 3-0 baby! USA USA 🦅🦅🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸undefeated champs. That’s what you get Britain! Don’t mess with the U.S. (I will be incredibly sad in the following episodes I think)
@@JohnCampbell-rn8rz no one won the war and from a strategic perspective no one lose. The US goals of the war was to stop impressment of US sailors and to take part of Canada. The impressment stoped but Canada was not taken. The British goals were to keep Canada and stop American expansion west. As I said Canada stayed British but the US definitely expanded west.
@@jasonirwin4631 Why do I have to keep repeating this quote? "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching; & will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, & the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 4 August 1812, a month after the U.S. declared war on Britain. Do you see any mention of the indignities being visited on American shipping by the Royal Navy? Any vessel from any country trying to run the blockade and trade with France was stopped by the RN, and if deserters were found on any of those ships, the RN retrieved them. The War Hawks wanted British North America and the reason Jefferson called it a "mere matter of marching" was because, in their usual ignorance of anything outside of the U.S., the War Hawks thought the Canadian colonists would flock to the American banner, eager to shed the oppression of crazy King George. Oops, nope. The U.S. declared war to conquer BNA while the Brits were busy with Napoleon. The U.S. failed in that objective. The U.S. lost. The Treaty of Ghent was diplomacy to save face.
Dude, the way you described the battle totally put me as a bird viewing the action like no one ever has! I had a movie of it going in my head as you described everything from the maneuvering to the attitudes of the officers and sailors! It reminded me of your description of the Battle Off Samar! Just great storytelling! Thank you!
Thank you for this very informative account of this period during the War of 1812. Really liked the challenge of Hornet and the Bonne Citoyenne. That was a rare treat. The battle with Java I knew the outcome however I didn't know how hard a fight it was. As they say, a ship is only as good as the men who sail her as we'll see in your next chapter of Frigate wars.
God, a ton of the early history of the US navy involves Bainbridge repeatedly getting shafted by bad luck, I always loved that he finally got his chance for redemption here. He got an actual, IRL character arc!
Drach, war of 1812 - a remarkable 'cutting-out' story -- the loss of HMS Nancy, followed by the night time surprise capture of two US Navy brigs and turning the balance of power overnight in tge upper lakes....
I'm from Boston, and have served in the navy. I've visited USS Constitution many times, and was sort of adopted by the crew in 1981 just after enlisting. I've had the privilege of seeing every inch of her, including being in the captain's cabin, and the bilge where the dead were placed during combat, which are both off limits to visitors. I often see animated imaginary duels between USS Constitution and HMS Victory. Of course, HMS Victory wins every time. HMS Victory was a first-rate ship of the line with more than 100 canon. USS Constitution was a heavy frigate which often carried around 54 canon which would also put her in the class of a fourth-rate ship of the line. USS Constitution would never attack a first-rate ship of the line alone. It would be suicide. Constitution would be ripped apart by a ship like Victory before getting close enough for her guns to bear. HMC Victory had thirty 42 pounder guns, whereas Constitution's largest guns were 32 pounders. If the USS Constitution ever encountered a first-rate ship of the line sailing alone (which would be very unlikely), she would either shadow the larger ship or break off to report the location direction and speed to an American squadron commander. This battle, shows that the slightly smaller and more lightly armed HMS Java could have won the battle if Captain Lambert was not mortally wounded. He seemed to have been the tactically superior commander compared to Captain Bainbridge. The American 44 gun frigates were very tough ships to take on, but they weren't immune to battle damage.
I grew up in Charlestown Massachusetts. Home of the USS Constitution and the Bunkerhill Monument. Many summers taking the tours onboard " old ironsides"
I served on the crew of the US Brig Niagara in its first summer of sailing under its first captain.Handling sail at 90 feet above the deck was always interesting. Our motto was, "One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself". We also had a "Shi[p's Company" of cannoneers who handled the heavy, short range carronades for firing demonstrations. Bar Shot (looks like a free weight dumbbell) would spin and cut rigging in close quarters combat.
The Constitution may very well be the most armored sailing Frigate to ever have been constructed. It's hull was as thick as the hull of a 1st rate Ship of the Line, which owed to Constitutions' immense weight for its type and size.
Contemporary people did not think of ships as carrying armor. Constitution's hull was not thick enough to stop 18-pdr shot fired with a service charge anyhow. But it did make her very durable.
I love the idea of you putting video scripts up as articles on a website, because it gives people something concrete and easy to find as a reference when telling people about cool naval stuff, instead of having to desperately click through Wikipedia trying to find something to back up this cool thing you found in a drach video and the person you're telling thinks it's made up.
Difficult. She is competing with Vasa in Stockholm. And when I visited Constitution in 2016, she was in drydock and stripped of many interesting things. Massachusetts at Battleship Cove was pretty cool, too. I definitely have to visit Victory, next time I get into the UK; after that it would be settled.
@@Kref3I need to visit Victory as well. Seeing Vasa would be real nice, but Victory trumps it on my to-do list. (can you actually step _on_ Vasa?) Also another neat thing in Mass. that a lot of people overlook are all the shipwrecks on Cape Cod. Some of them are close enough to shore where you can easily swim out to them... when they are exposed that is and you never know when that will be. Still, pretty neat thing to do if you ever get the chance. addendum: The Viking Ship Museum would be nice to visit as well, though no walking on those. addendum 2: I live 2 hours from Battleship Cove. Really, a lot of nice museum ships in this general area. Ranging from Constitution (yes yes, ship of state) and Salem to New Jersey and Olympia.
Twice a year the Navy tows the Constitution out to Castle Island, where it exchanges a salute with the cannons in the old fort before returning to it’s dock. They do this to turn the ship so that it doesn’t always have the same side against the dock. About a dozen years ago I entered the free lottery for tix to be on the ship the next time it took its turn around Boston Harbor, and my name was picked! I was able to take my ten year old son with me to tour the ship, and stand on it’s deck as it led a small parade of ships around the harbor, and exchanged its salute. Truly one of the greatest experiences of my life.
In March of 1942 the Constitution was pressed into service patrolling off Boston harbor on U Boat watch. On the foggy morning of March 26 it encountered an unidentified ship a mere 120 yards on the starboard beam and opened fire after said ship failed to identify itself. The ship fled from the engagement and was eventually revealed to be the HMS Blenheim a newly commissioned corvette. The after action report stated that the Blenheims main mast had been shot away.
Is there a source for this? I'd like to read more. I've also heard the frigate Constellation (the 1854 one currently in Baltimore's Inner Harbor) was also activated during WWII for some sort of picket duty or as a communications relay or something. God that would've sucked to lose Constitution to a U-boat torpedo.
My paternal Grandfather worked on the Constitution during its restoration in 1906-07 in Boston harbor. He was a laborer and a machinist. He brought a sea chest with a small block and tackle, a few feet of rope, some large iron nails and a marlin spike home with him to Philadelphia. I saw them in my aunt Rose's attic in Wildwood NJ in the mid-1960's. She left them to a nephew on her husband's side of the family when she passed around 1980.
you mentioned posting the script as an article, might I suggest adding closed captions/subtitles as well? you already have the script after all, and it could really help any viewers who are hard of hearing as TH-cam's automated captions are terrible. loved the video!
Have you done an episode on sailing or sails? Would be interesting how sails evolved and how different ships used different sails to do different things
You really ought to do a couple videos about Aubrey-Maturin. You could start by HMS Surprise (the real part of its story) and continue with the fictional part. Another video idea would be to gauge how accurate POB portrayed the historical engagements. Watching this video makes me think he didn't do justice to Lambert, but judging from what I found out about Shannon vs Chesapeake he was quite accurate there.
Captain/Commodore Bainbridge was my great, great, great grandfather's first cousin and, of course, the source of much family pride. I think it worth mention that the Java's wheel was removed and subsequently installed upon the Constitution, where it remained indefinitely.
"Someone on Java managed to find a new flag, and hoisted it on the tallest remaining scrap of mast timber they could find." You have to admire the spirit. In their place, I would have declined to even engage an enemy so much more heavily armed than myself. As evidenced, even with skillful maneuvering it's just too much of an uphill struggle. I suppose I'd be considered a rather timid captain.
"Old Ironsides" -The Americans had better Wood. White Oak, Live Oak, Cedar, etc.They had better masts (see this battle) often a whole single trunk of ancient Eastern White Pine. "White Pine the Tree that Made A Nation" by Andrew Vietze is an excellent book. Wood was why England started the Colonies in the first place. They otherwise had to rely on the Baltic States/Russia who were allies, but the wood wasn't as good or tall and the trade route tough. After leaving the siege of Boston one of The British Navy's last moves was to fire bomb Falmouth (ME) whose Harbor was full of massive spars of White Pine for masts. Huge Forests were an advantage to the early American Navy.
Patrick O'Brien's excellent novel 'The Fortune of War', from the Aubrey-Maturin (Master and Commander) series, contains a very well written, and almost 100% historically accurate depiction of the battle between USS Constitution and HMS Java. The progress of the battle, down to each manuver and moment in time depict the fight based on the ships' logs, contemporary accounts, modern research, etc, with the only fictional parts being the inclusion of the eponymous characters and their actions, and the dialogue of the participants. It's historical fiction at its very best, and even if one isn't interested in the series as a whole (which would be strange for anyone watching this vid, imo), even the chapters encompassing the duel and it's aftermath alone is definitely worth a read (or listen, if audiobooks are one's thing.) Anyway, I'd highly recommended it, and the series as a whole. The NY Times book review once called the series 'The best historical fiction ever written.', and I (mostly) agree... It's right in the wheelhouse of anyone that follows this channel! Cheers. Edit- the audiobook is available on youtube. I'm not sure if a copyright violation or not, but it's probably okay to listen to the chapter which encompasses this battle without being too stealy.
Thank you. I've been looking down the comments for my fellow Aubrey-Maturin shipmates - and your recommendation of O'Brien's series is outstanding, what I would have wanted to write if someone else hadn't.
@@brianmessemer2973 Thanks. I appreciate the compliment! (I'm in the middle of yet another reread if the series now- something I do every couple of years!) Cheers!
@@bholdr----0 Me too I’ve read all the books but I’m in in a re-listen to the the audiobooks narrated by Patrick Tull - he’s phenomenal if you’ve never heard him narrate O’Brien. Currently in The Hundred Days again. When I get to the the end of 21, I go back to M&C and start again.
Well, Lambert prevented *most* of ship from falling into enemy hands. The helm apparently fell into American hands, but was promptly replaced with one that was of the actual size needed for Constitution and has since been lost to history.
The book The Six Frigates by Ian W. Toll is a terrific history of the Constitution and her sisters. If I may venture to say, it is as eloquent and scholarly as Drach.
I'd be interested about Drachinifel's opinion about the movie "The Caine Mutiny" with the great Humphrey Bogart. It's totally off-topic here, but nevertheless.
Something not often appreciated especially in the US is the sheer size difference between the US heavy frigates and an RN 18 pounder frigate with the US ships actually having a hull as large as or larger than that of a 64 gun ship of the line or even some of the smaller 74's and this certainly gave them an advantage over the smaller British ships.
The same could be said of the HMS Leopard (50) in their unprovoked attack on the USS Chesapeake (38). The fact of the matter is that the RN (circa 1812) still had plenty of Fourth Rate frigates and razéed Third Rate warships in service. The beam wasn't the "advantage" the (unmodified) Humphrey's frigates had over their Royal Navy adversaries, but, rather, the reinforced hull which weathered shot better and supported heavier armaments. Unlike an RN razéed Third Rate, the Humphrey's Frigates had a more efficient hull which allowed them to, all things being equal, outrun more powerful Ships of the Line and overpower many purpose-built Fourth and most Fifth Rate warships they would likely encounter.
@@deadmeat8754 You must also admit that the bulk of the ships like Leopard on the America station were for the first part of the war ships that were no longer seen as strong enough to deal with the main enemy France but adequate for secondary roles. The RN did plan to send crushing forces to the Americas along with Thomas Cochrane(the Sea Wolf) but the war ended before this could happen. It should be noted that the US lost it's flagship to a smaller lighter armed frigate along with it's"ace"captain being captured
@@davidmcintyre8145 I think there's little debate that by 1812 Great Britain was the world's premier naval power. Certainly, in the context of the Napoleonic Wars naval arms race even 3rd Rate ships were beginning to be seen as too small to stand in the Line. However, against a minor regional power, such as the United States of America, Third and Fourth rate warships were more than adequate. Indeed, the naval blockade of the USA was largely conducted by squadrons comprised of such vessels. In fact, the pursuit and capture of the President was effected by such a squadron. In that battle, it is incontrovertible that the President had been damaged from an unintentional grounding prior to being pursued by the squadron lead by the razeed Third Rate Ship-of-the-Line HMS Majestic. I should also point out that the President was _not_ the flagship of the USN. Further, Decatur was a better Marine than warship Captain. During Decatur's ill-timed breakout attempt and subsequent engagement with Majestic's squadron, I believe he made a number of very poor choices which ensured his defeat. Fortunately, Decatur had enough political influence to save him from the same punishment he previously meted out to James Barron for surrendering the Chesapeake. So, in my opinion the only "ace" Captain in the engagement was Endymion's Captain Henry Hope who ran a tight ship with a highly trained crew. Respectfully, calling the Endymion a "smaller" frigate is somewhat disingenuous as she carried a powerful battery and was very nearly as large and heavy as President. In addition, she was widely regarded as being one of the fastest ships in the RN. You are correct that if the war had not been resolved, Great Britain would have sent overwhelming forces fresh from the Napoleonic Wars. We, in fact, saw such a trend towards the end of the conflict. Sometimes, though, wars are not decided by military superiority alone. In the case of the American War of 1812, the damage and expense resulting from the American campaign against British merchant shipping and the lack of broad domestic support for the war ensured that the British were willing to negotiate a peace with America.
I have, of course, come across descriptions of this famous action in books, but never in this sort of detail. I didn't realize how close-run of a thing it was, and how even of a match it was in the beginning. A lot of accounts I've read dwelt on the American's superior weight of guns and heavier timbers and sides, as though that alone decided the eventual outcome. It is interesting that the Java in real life had passengers on board - in fiction, Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin were on board, and ended up as prisoners in Boston. They also ended up as passengers on HMS Shannon, during her battle with USS Chesapeake. That's one of the prerogatives you have when writing fiction - putting your characters in the middle of famous historical events.
Honor is a nice thing, crews treating each other well, but like in this case, due to honor Java kept fighting and men kept dying even when the battle was lost
I don't know about that. There are accounts of Nazi SS soldiers politely interacting with enemy commanders. I suspect chivalry between officers is, to at least some extent, and depending on the officers, just an enduring fact of war.
It’s hard to be chivalrous in an era where engagements happen well out of sight range of the enemy. The electronic eyes that govern these sort of battles tend to cleanse them of their human element.
I love this video series, age of sail fighting is always interesting to hear about. I was wondering, will you ever do a video on the Penobscot Expedition of 1779, the worst American naval defeat that occurred in the War of Independence. Colonial forces lost a total of 44 ships, and the British lost 0. Pretty interesting story of blunders, might make a good series like the War of 1812 engagements.
OK, so here's a six degrees of separation story. George Washington was named after my eighth great grandfather, George Eskridge. George Eskridge and his wife took George Washington's mother, Mary Ball, into their home when she was orphaned at age 12. When Mary Ball later grew up and got married and became Mary Ball Washington, she and her husband named their first born son George, after George Eskridge. Of course, George Washington named the USS Constitution. And USS Constitution was 4-O in the war of 1812. I visited the USS Constitution a few years ago and just stood there thinking about the connection.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 80 | คู่เอก "รักษ์ vs ยอดนำชัย"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ckLMRorsMeY/mqdefault.jpg)
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Had the War of 1812 gone on for longer and the Americans built their own freshwater first-rate to counter HMS St. Lawrence, how would the naval situation on Lake Ontario turn out?
wasn't this encounter the basis for Master and Commander?
In your opinion, what class or type of ship was the most cost effective?
What exactly is raking fire. Why is it important that it is done from the bow?
raking fire is when they hit a ship from the bow or Stern. They're the weakest points on an old age of sail ship because they had those Open Spaces where everyone lived and had the artillery so there was nothing to stop the shots from going straight through. I hope that helps, but I'm hoping he'll answer this question because I would like his input as well😊
Former USS Constitution Museum employee here (again).
One of the most impressive artifacts on display in the Museum is actually a result of this battle. If I recall correctly, while he was recuperating aboard the victorious USS Constitution, Lt Chads was approached by the first officer of the USS Constitution (A Lt. Parker, I think) with a request that they work together to figure out what happened in the confusing, twisting battle between the two vessels, with an eye towards making a copy for each of their nations. Chads agreed and the two eventually had created an after action report. Parker then made two clean, neat copies of the report (on paper with colored pencils) as a map of the battle showing the progress of the action.
The American copy is there in the Museum, on display, in a special box, over two hundred years after the battle. I don't know what happened to Lt. Chad's copy, but hopefully as worst it is still someplace safe and awaiting discovery by some enterprising soul at the Admiralty.
That's really cool.
What a total…..Chad….😂
Thank you for sharing!
I will also hope for the same 😊
Name checks out
I love Drach’s “inane ramblings” as he has such a unique way of stating things. Moreover, being an independent historian and, therefore his own small business, Drach needs to be able to pay his bills. The intro ad segments are easy to fast forward if one wants to jump right into the main content and is a small price to “pay” for truly quality programming.
Absolutely! 😎
I just let the ad play,, the AI notices when you skip ads...
For sure. I kind of despise how the internet became as corporatized and for profit as TV.
@jonny-b4954
Somebody has to pay the bills!
What Drachinfel does isn't cheap!
@@mahbriggsNo doubt. I don't mind it. It just sucks in an ideal world. I mean, without ad blocker, literally 50% of my screen is ads.
As some of Drach's followers are well aware, there is a terrific (slightly) fictionalized account of the Constitution-Java battle in Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin novel The Fortune of War.
One of the better books in a fantastic series.
That battle is a wild ride in the book. I thoroughly recommend it.
Aw Dangit... I just posted something simaler. (Shoulda read the other comments first.)
Anyway, that IS a fantastic series, one which I reread every few years. The NY Times book review once called it the 'best historical fiction ever written.', etc.
Cheers.
@@amh9494 what's your favorite book in the series? I lean towards 'The Ionian Mission', and 'Desolation Island' (other than the first book, anyway.)
Cheers!
@@bholdr----0 I do enjoy the bits after the stock fixing outside of the navy if I'm honest.
Fun fact drach at the time of the battle the Java was carrying copper sheets and plating for HMS Trincomalee which is now a museum ship and was also carrying plans for ship of the line HMS Cornwallis
This action has always been captivating to me.
Plus the fact that Constitution still has Java's wheel to steer her with.
"I'm going -shopping- looting. What do we need?"
I can picture the still standing sailors on HMS Java, manning the remaining guns, eyes fixed on the USS Constitution and going, sotto voce, "Closer...closer...".
I have a different mental picture of Java’s crew bent over with their cheeks spread, waiting, hoping for lube.😄
Drach, thanks for doing these videos about the War of 1812 Frigate Duels. The War of 1812, as interesting as it was, has sadly been overshadowed by The Napoleonic Wars, The American Civil War, World War I, and World War II. It is because of this fact I believe that many young people today probably don't know why the U.S.S. CONSTITUTION has been preserved as a memorial
Agreed
It was because it was far less important or dramatic. America becoming what America is today has made it more popular than actually should be. The American war of independence wasn't really that big of a deal in British history never mind 1812.
War of 1812 just part of Napoleonic Wars for the British of course not being a main theater mostly ignored and as US did not have a Navy to threaten England to the public I assume not that big a deal.
Plus the American Revolution became the Bourbon War to England once France came in and like 1812 a minor theater compared with France.
. But losing that much land and a war with the Revolution I would have to say British just did not want to think about it and the stupidity of Parliament that caused it. Refusal of seats just because the other side might be able to gain control of Parliament with the Colonies population it would not be that many seats. Although I do joke that having Parliament in that small of a space cost the British the Empire because they had no more space for seats.
With seats the biggest gripe of the Americans would be over. Then ending the rules prohibiting the Colony from making fine clothing and goods would have lifted the other very taxing aggravation for the Colonies. Hostile to the colonies trade rules reduced the Colonies often having no currency to use having to resort to stuff like using bundles of Tobacco to trade. Note this unfavorable trade rules was a major factor that Gandhi used in hid campaign for India Independence. Gandhi spinning thread to make a point they should make their own clothing to address a very hostile trade imbalance and point out that the once thriving Indian textile industry known for a huge number of centuries had been ended by England.
So I understand your point and as an American I often hit school American history classes for making such a big deal of not very important Frigate battles when the US was helpless to actually stop the British Navy overall.
Both wars for US were the only thing for us but for the British they half lost in the conflicts with France of the same period.
@@Englishman_and_mountains
The end of HMS Java; In Portsmouth NH there are a pair of guns set as gate posts for a private home.
I last read the cast crest about 30 years ago, but I would sweat they were cast for HMS Java.
They were smaller guns, less than 5 feet sticking out of the ground.
If I can get down there again I will send photo's.
Even if some people go too far with that British order talked about at the end, the fact that they issued what they did is truly significant. It shows that yes, there are some rather strong American frigates. It also shows the Admiralty seeing that something wasn't working as intended and changing tack in a relatively short amount of time.
Showed the Admiralty realising an 18pdr frigate shouldn't engage a 24pdr Frigate solo
@@richardcowling7381 Compare & contrast with how generals fought WW1 on both the eastern and western fronts a century later.
You know the funny thing is the admiralty could have made different choices and still been super effective. Could have spammed 64 or 74 gun razees if they wanted.
@@PaulfromChicagoThere was still a need to keep the 3rd rates in European waters to blockade the French ports. By the war of 1812, Napoleon had managed to rebuilt strong naval forces while much of the Royal Navy Battlefleet was worn down by the constant blockade duty.
Yes that is why they built the RAzee strenghth of a 64 gun ship and armed with 40
USS Constitution: Surrender.
HMS Java: Sorry old man, I don't think we will.
USS Constitution: You've got no masts, no sails, you're on fire and your hull is full of holes.
HMS Java: Alright, we'll call it a draw.
Your use of detailed models (being modified to reflect the state of a specific ship at a particular point in time), cotton balls for smoke, and very close photography, perfectly timed with your narration, has set a new standard for illustrating historic naval battles.
The dioramas are very good except that he should create a wind arrow, including any shifts that were reported. In addition, the yards of the ships could be turned to show them as they were trimmed(or backed to slow down or even hove to if thst is known). This is a normal function of sailors trying to draw out who did what etc. Racing sailors do it, collision cases do it, ALL captains do it when reporting a critical situation. Without knowing the wind an encounter is reduced to only manuver as if under power, with little explanation of how or why.
And Drach, don't get me wrong I love you research and narrations. Cheers
From an American, thank you for teaching us how to operate a navy. We learned from the best. Also, I am grateful for our special relationship. You are the best ally we could ever hope for.
Not gonna lie to you American, at this point, even the Chinese are listening.
Don’t forget to wipe your nose.
Constitution as built had a single wheel helm. After this engagement Java's double wheel helm was used to replace the wheel lost in the engagement. Constitution has used a double wheel ever since.
Sabaton needs to compose songs around the 1812 war.
A Swedish Metal version of the Star Spangled Banner would be... interesting.
Sabaton edition of "Coast of High Barbary" needs to happen
Yeah they're good. I do wish there was a band like them that wasn't metal though.
no, we dont need metal based 4 chord pop music
More garbage?
I love single ship actions! The gentleman’s pub brawl.
Hard pounding, gentlemen! Let's see who pounds the longest...
Publishing your scripts as articles is a great idea! But I will always listen rather than read; you have a fantastic speaking voice and I have these videos on in the background while working. You should look into being an audiobook narrator.
I agree
It's great to me that the USMC played a part in this battle. The branch that I served in played a part in keeping our oldest serving ship alive. I'm very proud of that. Having a shot of whiskey in honor of it.
Thank you for all of your effort Drach. As a historical sociologist I have an immense amount of respect for the time you clearly put into the accuracy, production value and depth of your impressive and growing corpus of work.
as a kid who grew up reading the Hornblower and Ramage books I love these stories
BZ, its always nice to praise your enemy, it makes your victory sweeter and defeat more tolerable.
The last time I was this early, Joshua Humphreys was saying, "Listen, I've got an idea."
Stunning work with the close up model shots Drac well done.
Drach has a way of truly bringing history to life.
My thanks to him.
Yet another excellent video. USS Constitution was quite the hobby of mine 1/2 century ago even building the large 1:96 Revell model of her 2x (one being let behind in a family move).
I never knew just how polite the naval battles of this conflict were so polite.
The Chesapeake vs Shannon is exemplary in this regard:
The HMS Shannon: "Please fight us. It is honorable, good sir!"
Also HMS Shannon: "Fire at the gun deck, kill the gun crews."
Captain Aubrey and Dr Maturin were on the Java for this action. Great story. Thank you.
Thank you for your great reports of our past history. I have always enjoyed them. When I was around 10 my Dad started building a sailboat for the family and I was helping him through the next 5 years. We read "Royce's Sailing Illustrated" to learn how to sail and built all the boat and trailer except the sails ourselves. One of the books my Dad had from his childhood was "Midshipman Davie Jones" a story of the life on the USS Constitution. I read it a few times back then and recently bought a Kindle copy to read again. Of course I have read many other books about the sea and find them interesting. Another good book published recently is "The Frigates" about the planning and building of the USS frigates and their stories. The "Midshipman Davie Jones" had some great illustrations of the ships and there equipment and the uniforms from both sides of the conflict. It's worth a look.
Me usually: ah yes. What a wonderful and unbiased account of this event. So professionally well done and spoken. Quite nice to see it laid out so clearly.
Me during this series: WHOOOOOO!!!! 3-0 baby! USA USA 🦅🦅🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸undefeated champs. That’s what you get Britain! Don’t mess with the U.S. (I will be incredibly sad in the following episodes I think)
You can't win 'em all, old boy.
Yeah I'd skip the next one, old boy.
The USA lost the war.
@@JohnCampbell-rn8rz no one won the war and from a strategic perspective no one lose. The US goals of the war was to stop impressment of US sailors and to take part of Canada. The impressment stoped but Canada was not taken. The British goals were to keep Canada and stop American expansion west. As I said Canada stayed British but the US definitely expanded west.
@@jasonirwin4631 Why do I have to keep repeating this quote? "The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching; & will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next, & the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 4 August 1812, a month after the U.S. declared war on Britain. Do you see any mention of the indignities being visited on American shipping by the Royal Navy? Any vessel from any country trying to run the blockade and trade with France was stopped by the RN, and if deserters were found on any of those ships, the RN retrieved them. The War Hawks wanted British North America and the reason Jefferson called it a "mere matter of marching" was because, in their usual ignorance of anything outside of the U.S., the War Hawks thought the Canadian colonists would flock to the American banner, eager to shed the oppression of crazy King George. Oops, nope. The U.S. declared war to conquer BNA while the Brits were busy with Napoleon. The U.S. failed in that objective. The U.S. lost. The Treaty of Ghent was diplomacy to save face.
Thank you, been waiting for this. Enjoy the tour.
Dude, the way you described the battle totally put me as a bird viewing the action like no one ever has!
I had a movie of it going in my head as you described everything from the maneuvering to the attitudes of the officers and sailors!
It reminded me of your description of the Battle Off Samar!
Just great storytelling!
Thank you!
Thank you for this very informative account of this period during the War of 1812. Really liked the challenge of Hornet and the Bonne Citoyenne. That was a rare treat.
The battle with Java I knew the outcome however I didn't know how hard a fight it was.
As they say, a ship is only as good as the men who sail her as we'll see in your next chapter of Frigate wars.
God, a ton of the early history of the US navy involves Bainbridge repeatedly getting shafted by bad luck, I always loved that he finally got his chance for redemption here. He got an actual, IRL character arc!
Drach, war of 1812 - a remarkable 'cutting-out' story -- the loss of HMS Nancy, followed by the night time surprise capture of two US Navy brigs and turning the balance of power overnight in tge upper lakes....
Sounds like a fork chasing down the last pea on the plate.
I'm from Boston, and have served in the navy. I've visited USS Constitution many times, and was sort of adopted by the crew in 1981 just after enlisting. I've had the privilege of seeing every inch of her, including being in the captain's cabin, and the bilge where the dead were placed during combat, which are both off limits to visitors. I often see animated imaginary duels between USS Constitution and HMS Victory. Of course, HMS Victory wins every time. HMS Victory was a first-rate ship of the line with more than 100 canon. USS Constitution was a heavy frigate which often carried around 54 canon which would also put her in the class of a fourth-rate ship of the line. USS Constitution would never attack a first-rate ship of the line alone. It would be suicide. Constitution would be ripped apart by a ship like Victory before getting close enough for her guns to bear. HMC Victory had thirty 42 pounder guns, whereas Constitution's largest guns were 32 pounders. If the USS Constitution ever encountered a first-rate ship of the line sailing alone (which would be very unlikely), she would either shadow the larger ship or break off to report the location direction and speed to an American squadron commander. This battle, shows that the slightly smaller and more lightly armed HMS Java could have won the battle if Captain Lambert was not mortally wounded. He seemed to have been the tactically superior commander compared to Captain Bainbridge. The American 44 gun frigates were very tough ships to take on, but they weren't immune to battle damage.
I grew up in Charlestown Massachusetts. Home of the USS Constitution and the Bunkerhill Monument. Many summers taking the tours onboard " old ironsides"
Can't wait for the video where the frigates USS Hornet and USS Essex fight their british counterparts HMS Shokaku and HMS Zuikaku.
I served on the crew of the US Brig Niagara in its first summer of sailing under its first captain.Handling sail at 90 feet above the deck was always interesting. Our motto was, "One hand for the ship, one hand for yourself". We also had a "Shi[p's Company" of cannoneers who handled the heavy, short range carronades for firing demonstrations.
Bar Shot (looks like a free weight dumbbell) would spin and cut rigging in close quarters combat.
The Shannon and the Cheasapeake.... can't wait...
"Follow Me Who Can"!
That will be a quick one. Shannon's Captain was outstanding and took Chesapeake quickly.
@@mastermariner7813"we'll thump em, again and AGAIN!"
@@mastermariner7813
Bloodiest naval engagement of the war of 1812
The Constitution may very well be the most armored sailing Frigate to ever have been constructed. It's hull was as thick as the hull of a 1st rate Ship of the Line, which owed to Constitutions' immense weight for its type and size.
Yes it was built with very dense timber
Building ships out of live oak timbers has that effect
Contemporary people did not think of ships as carrying armor. Constitution's hull was not thick enough to stop 18-pdr shot fired with a service charge anyhow. But it did make her very durable.
@@MinSredMash She had timber with a Specific Gravity 0.88 Janka Hardness of2680lb/ft English oak was a lot softer
@@jacktattis And American toilet paper was softer than Soviet toilet paper. That doesn't mean Soviet toilet paper was bulletproof.
Gotta luv a history video you immediately want to rewatch to see if you missed anything the time round.
Thanks Drach
Great video - like always a Drachinifel level of content - and I love that u used pics of Black Seas tabletop game ships :)
Great video. I've been aboard Constitution many times, she's a beautiful ship.
I love the idea of you putting video scripts up as articles on a website, because it gives people something concrete and easy to find as a reference when telling people about cool naval stuff, instead of having to desperately click through Wikipedia trying to find something to back up this cool thing you found in a drach video and the person you're telling thinks it's made up.
History never gets old, ironically. Thank you for this important account of our naval history.
Constitution is by far the coolest ship I have ever set foot on.
Difficult. She is competing with Vasa in Stockholm. And when I visited Constitution in 2016, she was in drydock and stripped of many interesting things. Massachusetts at Battleship Cove was pretty cool, too.
I definitely have to visit Victory, next time I get into the UK; after that it would be settled.
@@Kref3I need to visit Victory as well. Seeing Vasa would be real nice, but Victory trumps it on my to-do list. (can you actually step _on_ Vasa?)
Also another neat thing in Mass. that a lot of people overlook are all the shipwrecks on Cape Cod. Some of them are close enough to shore where you can easily swim out to them... when they are exposed that is and you never know when that will be. Still, pretty neat thing to do if you ever get the chance.
addendum: The Viking Ship Museum would be nice to visit as well, though no walking on those.
addendum 2: I live 2 hours from Battleship Cove. Really, a lot of nice museum ships in this general area. Ranging from Constitution (yes yes, ship of state) and Salem to New Jersey and Olympia.
@@Kref3 btw, I really regret not going to see Constitution when she was in drydock. That is not something anyone will see too often.
Twice a year the Navy tows the Constitution out to Castle Island, where it exchanges a salute with the cannons in the old fort before returning to it’s dock. They do this to turn the ship so that it doesn’t always have the same side against the dock.
About a dozen years ago I entered the free lottery for tix to be on the ship the next time it took its turn around Boston Harbor, and my name was picked! I was able to take my ten year old son with me to tour the ship, and stand on it’s deck as it led a small parade of ships around the harbor, and exchanged its salute.
Truly one of the greatest experiences of my life.
@@Chesirecat111 That really is pretty awesome. I'm somewhat jealous.
Needed a fun Friday 😊
In March of 1942 the Constitution was pressed into service patrolling off Boston harbor on U Boat watch. On the foggy morning of March 26 it encountered an unidentified ship a mere 120 yards on the starboard beam and opened fire after said ship failed to identify itself. The ship fled from the engagement and was eventually revealed to be the HMS Blenheim a newly commissioned corvette. The after action report stated that the Blenheims main mast had been shot away.
1942, eh?
@@marschma
It may have been 1943.
Constitution was Admiral Ingersoll's flagship.
Is there a source for this? I'd like to read more. I've also heard the frigate Constellation (the 1854 one currently in Baltimore's Inner Harbor) was also activated during WWII for some sort of picket duty or as a communications relay or something. God that would've sucked to lose Constitution to a U-boat torpedo.
@@RCAvhstape There is no source because it didn’t happen.
excellent commentary on a battle I have long wondered about
There’s a fantastic portrayal of this action in “Fortune of War” by Patrick Obrian!
Fascinating story. It is amazing how long the British crew held on.
My paternal Grandfather worked on the Constitution during its restoration in 1906-07 in Boston harbor. He was a laborer and a machinist. He brought a sea chest with a small block and tackle, a few feet of rope, some large iron nails and a marlin spike home with him to Philadelphia. I saw them in my aunt Rose's attic in Wildwood NJ in the mid-1960's. She left them to a nephew on her husband's side of the family when she passed around 1980.
Loving this series
you mentioned posting the script as an article, might I suggest adding closed captions/subtitles as well? you already have the script after all, and it could really help any viewers who are hard of hearing as TH-cam's automated captions are terrible. loved the video!
Have you done an episode on sailing or sails? Would be interesting how sails evolved and how different ships used different sails to do different things
crazy this came into my feed, i am currently reading fortunes of war by patrick obrein
Such an awesome series, thanks you.
Love these videos. Keep them coming.
This is a great series. Keep them coming!
As a young boy, I had a painting of the USS Constitution next to my bed!
I have a relative who died fighting on Java. He was a powder monkey 14 years old, died from splinters.
Always a pleasure to get more of the best in navel history. The scripts are a great idea.
I loved the scale models of the ships showing positions.
You really ought to do a couple videos about Aubrey-Maturin.
You could start by HMS Surprise (the real part of its story) and continue with the fictional part.
Another video idea would be to gauge how accurate POB portrayed the historical engagements.
Watching this video makes me think he didn't do justice to Lambert, but judging from what I found out about Shannon vs Chesapeake he was quite accurate there.
The channel History Buffs has a video discussing the movie. But yeah, a video breaking down the novels themselves would be interesting.
Interestingly, as a timeline, this is when Napoleon attacked Russia.
Captain/Commodore Bainbridge was my great, great, great grandfather's first cousin and, of course, the source of much family pride. I think it worth mention that the Java's wheel was removed and subsequently installed upon the Constitution, where it remained indefinitely.
As young officer Lucky Jack Aubrey awaited combat........
I like the vid that go back a few hundered years alongside with the "modern" vids. Like it!
This was awesome, thanks for sharing
"Someone on Java managed to find a new flag, and hoisted it on the tallest remaining scrap of mast timber they could find."
You have to admire the spirit.
In their place, I would have declined to even engage an enemy so much more heavily armed than myself. As evidenced, even with skillful maneuvering it's just too much of an uphill struggle. I suppose I'd be considered a rather timid captain.
"Old Ironsides" -The Americans had better Wood. White Oak, Live Oak, Cedar, etc.They had better masts (see this battle) often a whole single trunk of ancient Eastern White Pine. "White Pine the Tree that Made A Nation" by Andrew Vietze is an excellent book. Wood was why England started the Colonies in the first place. They otherwise had to rely on the Baltic States/Russia who were allies, but the wood wasn't as good or tall and the trade route tough. After leaving the siege of Boston one of The British Navy's last moves was to fire bomb Falmouth (ME) whose Harbor was full of massive spars of White Pine for masts. Huge Forests were an advantage to the early American Navy.
@ 3:30 Navigation error: Sailing WSW from Boston would eventually put the ships off St. Louis, Missouri.
Patrick O'Brien's excellent novel 'The Fortune of War', from the Aubrey-Maturin (Master and Commander) series, contains a very well written, and almost 100% historically accurate depiction of the battle between USS Constitution and HMS Java. The progress of the battle, down to each manuver and moment in time depict the fight based on the ships' logs, contemporary accounts, modern research, etc, with the only fictional parts being the inclusion of the eponymous characters and their actions, and the dialogue of the participants.
It's historical fiction at its very best, and even if one isn't interested in the series as a whole (which would be strange for anyone watching this vid, imo), even the chapters encompassing the duel and it's aftermath alone is definitely worth a read (or listen, if audiobooks are one's thing.)
Anyway, I'd highly recommended it, and the series as a whole. The NY Times book review once called the series 'The best historical fiction ever written.', and I (mostly) agree... It's right in the wheelhouse of anyone that follows this channel!
Cheers.
Edit- the audiobook is available on youtube. I'm not sure if a copyright violation or not, but it's probably okay to listen to the chapter which encompasses this battle without being too stealy.
Thank you. I've been looking down the comments for my fellow Aubrey-Maturin shipmates - and your recommendation of O'Brien's series is outstanding, what I would have wanted to write if someone else hadn't.
@@brianmessemer2973
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment! (I'm in the middle of yet another reread if the series now- something I do every couple of years!)
Cheers!
@@bholdr----0 Me too I’ve read all the books but I’m in in a re-listen to the the audiobooks narrated by Patrick Tull - he’s phenomenal if you’ve never heard him narrate O’Brien. Currently in The Hundred Days again. When I get to the the end of 21, I go back to M&C and start again.
COOL!!! i hadn't known constitution went through such a battle
Well, Lambert prevented *most* of ship from falling into enemy hands. The helm apparently fell into American hands, but was promptly replaced with one that was of the actual size needed for Constitution and has since been lost to history.
nice touch using the Black Seas models as a visual aid
Regards. Audio among cleanest. Very appreciative of CC...
The book The Six Frigates by Ian W. Toll is a terrific history of the Constitution and her sisters.
If I may venture to say, it is as eloquent and scholarly as Drach.
I love videos on the age of sail❤
Having a typical American education, I keep thinking that Guerriere is a kind of cheese...
Unless you speak French, pretty understandable mistake. And Gruyère cheese is pretty great.
Guerriere means "Warlike" or Warrior in in English.
@@clowkey1747Heh! I should have added the /s sarcasm tag to my post... but thanks regardless and, yes I likes me a good Gruyère!
@@kennethbolton951This, I did not know, so thank you for that!
I am still amazed at how relatively few died during these engagements.
As an American, this is the most "British" English I've ever heard spoken. The mother tongue truly is a pretty language when spoken properly.
I'd be interested about Drachinifel's opinion about the movie "The Caine Mutiny" with the great Humphrey Bogart.
It's totally off-topic here, but nevertheless.
The age of sail was such a brutal yet awesome time :)
Thanks!
Something not often appreciated especially in the US is the sheer size difference between the US heavy frigates and an RN 18 pounder frigate with the US ships actually having a hull as large as or larger than that of a 64 gun ship of the line or even some of the smaller 74's and this certainly gave them an advantage over the smaller British ships.
The same could be said of the HMS Leopard (50) in their unprovoked attack on the USS Chesapeake (38). The fact of the matter is that the RN (circa 1812) still had plenty of Fourth Rate frigates and razéed Third Rate warships in service. The beam wasn't the "advantage" the (unmodified) Humphrey's frigates had over their Royal Navy adversaries, but, rather, the reinforced hull which weathered shot better and supported heavier armaments. Unlike an RN razéed Third Rate, the Humphrey's Frigates had a more efficient hull which allowed them to, all things being equal, outrun more powerful Ships of the Line and overpower many purpose-built Fourth and most Fifth Rate warships they would likely encounter.
@@deadmeat8754 You must also admit that the bulk of the ships like Leopard on the America station were for the first part of the war ships that were no longer seen as strong enough to deal with the main enemy France but adequate for secondary roles. The RN did plan to send crushing forces to the Americas along with Thomas Cochrane(the Sea Wolf) but the war ended before this could happen. It should be noted that the US lost it's flagship to a smaller lighter armed frigate along with it's"ace"captain being captured
@@davidmcintyre8145 I think there's little debate that by 1812 Great Britain was the world's premier naval power. Certainly, in the context of the Napoleonic Wars naval arms race even 3rd Rate ships were beginning to be seen as too small to stand in the Line.
However, against a minor regional power, such as the United States of America, Third and Fourth rate warships were more than adequate. Indeed, the naval blockade of the USA was largely conducted by squadrons comprised of such vessels. In fact, the pursuit and capture of the President was effected by such a squadron.
In that battle, it is incontrovertible that the President had been damaged from an unintentional grounding prior to being pursued by the squadron lead by the razeed Third Rate Ship-of-the-Line HMS Majestic. I should also point out that the President was _not_ the flagship of the USN. Further, Decatur was a better Marine than warship Captain.
During Decatur's ill-timed breakout attempt and subsequent engagement with Majestic's squadron, I believe he made a number of very poor choices which ensured his defeat. Fortunately, Decatur had enough political influence to save him from the same punishment he previously meted out to James Barron for surrendering the Chesapeake. So, in my opinion the only "ace" Captain in the engagement was Endymion's Captain Henry Hope who ran a tight ship with a highly trained crew.
Respectfully, calling the Endymion a "smaller" frigate is somewhat disingenuous as she carried a powerful battery and was very nearly as large and heavy as President. In addition, she was widely regarded as being one of the fastest ships in the RN.
You are correct that if the war had not been resolved, Great Britain would have sent overwhelming forces fresh from the Napoleonic Wars. We, in fact, saw such a trend towards the end of the conflict. Sometimes, though, wars are not decided by military superiority alone. In the case of the American War of 1812, the damage and expense resulting from the American campaign against British merchant shipping and the lack of broad domestic support for the war ensured that the British were willing to negotiate a peace with America.
With due respect to Patrick O'Brian? Good morning!
I have, of course, come across descriptions of this famous action in books, but never in this sort of detail. I didn't realize how close-run of a thing it was, and how even of a match it was in the beginning. A lot of accounts I've read dwelt on the American's superior weight of guns and heavier timbers and sides, as though that alone decided the eventual outcome. It is interesting that the Java in real life had passengers on board - in fiction, Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin were on board, and ended up as prisoners in Boston. They also ended up as passengers on HMS Shannon, during her battle with USS Chesapeake. That's one of the prerogatives you have when writing fiction - putting your characters in the middle of famous historical events.
Honor is a nice thing, crews treating each other well, but like in this case, due to honor Java kept fighting and men kept dying even when the battle was lost
Thank you Drach.
No mention of the survivors of La Flèche?
YESSSSSS was looking down the comments for my Aubrey-Maturin crew!
I do love how chivalrous and polite these captains were to each other. A bygone era I fear.
I don't know about that. There are accounts of Nazi SS soldiers politely interacting with enemy commanders. I suspect chivalry between officers is, to at least some extent, and depending on the officers, just an enduring fact of war.
It’s hard to be chivalrous in an era where engagements happen well out of sight range of the enemy. The electronic eyes that govern these sort of battles tend to cleanse them of their human element.
@@AdmiralYeti8042 Interesting point. Thanks.
They sailed west southwest and arrived at the Cape Verde Islands? That is some sailing.
I love this video series, age of sail fighting is always interesting to hear about. I was wondering, will you ever do a video on the Penobscot Expedition of 1779, the worst American naval defeat that occurred in the War of Independence. Colonial forces lost a total of 44 ships, and the British lost 0. Pretty interesting story of blunders, might make a good series like the War of 1812 engagements.
OK, so here's a six degrees of separation story. George Washington was named after my eighth great grandfather, George Eskridge. George Eskridge and his wife took George Washington's mother, Mary Ball, into their home when she was orphaned at age 12. When Mary Ball later grew up and got married and became Mary Ball Washington, she and her husband named their first born son George, after George Eskridge. Of course, George Washington named the USS Constitution. And USS Constitution was 4-O in the war of 1812. I visited the USS Constitution a few years ago and just stood there thinking about the connection.
Very nicely done. Thanks
I’d love to hear you explain the battle of Put In Bay with Commodore Perry on Lake Erie!
We need an age of sail combat game akin to the naval/marine battles in Holdfast: Nations At War