Great explanation.... The only thing I'd add for newer shooters is to keep an eye on the temperature flux during the course of fire between all those ranges.... The temp can change significantly throughout a day of shooting. Especially if having to relocate targets throughout the shoot, which requires a lot more time.
Love these vids, keep them coming. I use Applied Ballistics and Hornady 4DOF. I think the 4DOF is more accurate if you shoot a bullet in their library, since it uses actual radar measurement (coefficient of drag as a function of velocity, or CD Mach model instead of the outdated BC model). I’ve noticed Applied Ballistics has recently started using custom radar curves, like Hornady…but that is specific to an individual’s rifle as measured in the field at events. Both are good solvers, and both get me on target but I would say the Applied Ballistics requires me to true muzzle velocity at mid range and BC at long range to fit the curve to my rifle system. 4DOF tends to be spot on out of the box if shooting Hornady bullets.
Anyone familiar with the Vortex Razor Gen III turrets know that the zero adjustment is not limited to .1 mil increments. Not sure if other high end glass has this feature. It is one of many reasons I have these on my PRS rifles. They also allow for quick external adjustments to zero, no disassembly of the turret and internals.
Perfect timing, working on fully understanding this process right now. Key point seems to be the extended range shots before tweaking the BC, and then if you are low, lower your BC. I know technically you should be at something like 80-90% of where the round approaches the super to sub transition.
Great video. I don't get to shoot much any longer being old and sick, but when I used to varmint hunt I did something like this, but only out to about 500 yards with my .243 remington varmint or Ruger Number 1 varmint. Wind was more of a problem than anything for me. I used to record everything in a note book.. Temp, wind, humidity, sun or clouds, etc, and I was always wondering where my first shot on a cold clean barrel would be. My Remington was such a good shooter and put the yodel dogs down right now. ❤ Good stuff guys.
Still not seeing how this is a substitute for just moving your zero up one tenth. Doesnt that 1000 dollar solver change this data up internally when it sees live on station pressure/alt/humidity/temp etc etc based off of your bullets bc and velocity? If not, was the solver a waste of a purchase then? If you shoot a 100yd, then mid way, then max range, and you're all consistently a tenth low, why wouldn't you just move your zero up one tenth?
I usually do try to adjust the 0 to perfect but sometimes if you’re running in mils, you jump between 1/4” low to 1/4” high because the adjustment isn’t as precise. Trueing really comes into effect at the longer ranges to make sure your bc is correct. You can have a dead on zero but be a little off on the bc and it will change your impact. Bullet bc on the box is what the manufacturer says it is supposed to be but they vary a little lot to lot
you are thinking too hard lol, Save the rounds and time, shoot a group, if its very close then just plug the offset into your solver, you will be going off your solver when shooting at distance anyway. if that .2 bothers your OCD that much then change it 😂 also if you payed a grand for your solver you probably got ripped off, go back to the store and return it 😂
PRS rimfire guy here. I agree. If it's .1 MRAD LOW. Just change it on the gun cuz it affects all holds from zero. In Rimfire that's huge. I've done kestrel tweaks too. Either works. But I'd give that scope a click and keep going. The important thing is to understand that the 10th is there and how to handle it.
I agree for PRS Rimfire I want a hard zero, because we are shooting at that zero distance, and sometimes as close as 25 yds. I get using the zero offset on the solver with centerfire PRS because it speeds up the process the morning of a match. Just remember that it’s in the solver for future.
Awesome information. I’m curious how you are able to adjust your BC for 1200 yds using the applied ballistics solver. Are you utilizing cal DSF? I’m assuming you’re running a CDM or PDM given your relationship with applied ballistics, unless this video is meant to demonstrate methods using traditional G7/G1 drag models. With the accuracy of modern chronographs, I think the ability to tweak CDM’s to better represent drag from your specific barrel/lot of ammo would be pretty powerful moving forward. If there’s a way to do it now it would be great to understand how! Thanks
In this video, I simply showed how you would adjust if using a standard G7 BC based solution. If you were using an AB CDM based drag model, using Cal DSF would be the best option.
Ok, if you notice at your zero @100 is a MIL low or high, beginner's question here - why wouldn't you fix it? Make a couple of clicks & redefine your zero, right? I understand the purpose of the test, and ammo isn't cheap - but I see this in a lot of videos. In fact, MOST videos - even in flat-shooting bullets like 6.5CM, 6.5PRC, 7PRC - no matter who his zero'ing their rifle, no matter what their budget, nobody ever seems to care about that last MIL. It always ends with "Ok that's close enough to zero", and the day continues. I get how group sizes, not bullseyes, define a rifle's accuracy, that part's cool. Maybe it's an OCD I have - and believe me, this is a question only, I'm a beginner learning online, I can barely put ammo in the proper direction. But here we are, with a super expensive rifle and a scope that cost as much as a good used Toyota, you're 2 inches from dead center. Your groups are < MOA. Even if it's just cosmetic, there seems to be this invisible line surrounding a bullseye that shooters seem to stay out of. It's what, 4 clicks on your scope dial & you're in the red every time @ 100yds? Is there some superstition I'm missing? If it's windy or something I get it, but 100yards/meters, it'd have to be a hurricane...
Because sometimes your correction puts you on the opposite side of the POA than where it was. If you KNOW your zero is consistently low or high put it in the solver and let it do the work instead of chasing a zero and burning ammo. I used to be the same way but at the end of the day the bullet will RARELY ever be perfect bullseye anyway and I've wasted a lot of ammo chasing that. Another reason is your zero changes from day to day or week to week depending on conditions that's why you true it once and tell the app "in these conditions it was hitting here" and the app corrects your hold for any condition. Put garbage in you'll get garbage out.
Great question! If our zero was a full mil low, we would absolutely change our zero to as close to perfect as possible. Then remeasure any offset and apply as necessary. I typically use the offset in match or field conditions where it is not possible to shoot multiple zeros or the zero position is compromised/difficult. In those cases, it's typcially safer to simply put in an offset that corrects for the observed difference rather than slip your turrets. If your zero shift was temporary, you simply undo the change in your solver and your back in action!
Just to clarify your question: you are saying the "last MIL".... Do you mean the last .1 Mil (i.e. tenth of a mil)? If you mean "why don't we chase/fix the last .1 mil (tenth), this is because groups will move slightly around your POA without changing anything. Shoot 10 5 shot groups at a horizontal line of aimpoint. Measure the average distance from center of each group to horizontal aim line (vertical height) and find the vertical distance between the highest group and the lowest group (i.e. .25" above POA and -.15" low = .4" net). If that number is >.3" you are not likely to know the EXACT avg group center from any given group and will potentially create more error by slipping zero.
@@FrancisColonPRS Absolutely answers it, thanks! As for the "last MIL", I ignorantly meant the last millimeter. We all see how groups go - we'll see 2 go into the same hole, and the next will end up 1/2" away, which is still incredible accuracy @ 100yds. That one "errant" shot, from what I've learned so far, is most likely the temp of the barrel, but it could be the ammo, it could be wind, it could be micro-adjustments. Chasing an absolute zero in the bullseye just seems like a logical progression to a beginner, especially when you're getting them all in the same hole, 2" away from bullseye. With all the advancements in the last 20-30yrs re: accuracy, we might soon see accuracy that will allow a reliable, consistent, dead-on bullseye @ 100yds. And I'm green enough to think that's gonna happen in my lifetime & it's worth dumping thousands in ammo chasing it. If I had to guess now, I'd say it'd be PRC ammo of some kind, and an indoor range.
Hey Chris! I use both regularly. 95% of the time, the CDM will very good alignment with my bullet/barrel combo (nearly better than my rifle is cable of grouping at distance). However there are some small cases where specific bullet lots or barrels have substantially different effective drag. The benefit of using the CDM is that you can use DSF (Drop Scale Factor) at specific distances to quickly true your solutions to near perfection. This will solve a few issues over using just a G7 model and truing Zero Height/Offset, MV and Drag (namely, it will help correct for scope tracking errors).
I have an 80-year-old Marlin model 80. Is it possible to get a chassis made for it? It shoots beautifully, but I don't want to alter the firearm in any way, so I'm very limited on sight options.
When truing, if you know your MV via a chronograph and are trying to true, then you will play with the BC because that is the unknown variable. Without a chrono and shooting within 500yrds, take the BC off the box and play with velocity till things match up. Reasoning for this is because up to about 500yrds, velocity will make more of a difference on how much the bullet drops than BC does because the bullet simply hasn’t gone far enough for aerodynamics (BC) to play a large role. Accurate BC is primarily for 500yrd+ shooting where the bullet is no longer zipping through air quick enough to not be bothered by stagnant air.
Generally, adjusting BC based on any shots inside 700-800 yards for an efficient 6mm or 6.5mm projectile is going to cause bigger errors at extended range. More often than not, if you have substantial errors in data inside 800yds, it's due to an input error, scope tracking or even misidentifying a target range.
@@FrancisColonPRS I don’t disagree, this is just assuming that the shooter has done everything else correctly and are trying to map out impacts in that range where BC begins to change. If you are going beyond 1000 and into ELR, there’s more work to be done.
Can you guys do a video on setting diopter....and not the normal look at the blue sky.... Im talking about like Francis was speaking of in miles to matches.....at around 50 something minutes
Yeah I just watched the video again and I did miss speak on that one. The shots landed about .25 MOA low (similar to 500yd target), not half as I said in video. We were
It seems like your consistently low from your 100 yard zero out, wouldn’t be easier to paint a water line on the target and actually zero at 100 and shoot to the line
It's not that we don't zero our guns, quite the opposite: we obsess about get a great zero while in know environments. The challenge is when other issues compound to create small (apparent ) shifts in zero (like mirage, lighting conditions, etc). When those conditions disappear, so does your zero so you'd end up chasing zero through the weekend. Instead, we will note the offset and shoot it until we see shots trending away from known data and adjust accordingly.
@FrancisColonPRS sure, but if you're inputting a zero offset it's the same end result in terms of chasing your zero, or in this case your data. So you either have confidence in your zero and the data you shoot when truing or not. What you're doing is 6 vs 1/2 dozen except it's unnecessarily complicated. You were at least 1/2 moa low in your zero and then at least a 0.1mrad all the way out. By all evidence you just needed to come .1. And on top of that, the video doesn't really cover "truing". It's literally just you shooting a zero and data at three ranges. Truing usually involves deriving a BC or MV. Hence truing something. Otherwise you're just gathering data.
@@RB-dc2bp I can appreciate your point of view and totally understand what you are saying. We shared the process we use when traveling across different venues across the country: Zero (note offset but don't change it yet), shoot 5, 8, 1k+ noting impact locations and reconfirm zero. Then check solutions with zero offset applied. If data still needs further corrections, you could definitely adjust zero and/or other things such as BC or MV to "true" but in this video, out data "errors" were simply a real offset of .25" low of point of aim. I could have slipped turret up .1 mil, but I tend to trust that my initial zero was correct and something about the zero range conditions are causing a small POI change that could disappear when sun comes up or mirage goes away. Another reason I tend to keep zero slightly low (if between clicks) is that our rifles will tend to gain velocity over the course of 200+ rounds, and leaving zero *slightly* low will typically get washed out as gun speeds up 5-15fps over the weekend. Appreciate you watching and if your see us at a match in the future, please say hello! Good luck this season !
@@FrancisColonPRS look, I know you don't want to go back and forth with some dude on the internet. But.... I agree that maintaining and being able to shoot your zero in a variety of environments and positions is the real trick and something that a lot of people undervalue. But if you're going to demonstrate how to true a ballistic computer, distrusting the results isn't a good lesson. I'm pretty critical of civilian PRS competitors as instructors. And your last video is a good example. Setting up a rifle properly. You exchanged rifles with a big dude and showed how his LOP was too long. Wow, big surprise. But you all never showed how to set up a rifle. And you all never made good on the title of the video. How is a rifle that is set up for a shooter, but slightly incorrectly, responsible for misses? Dude, if you're going to try to be an instructor you have to demonstrate tangible outcomes. Watch Ben Stoegers videos. He does a good job. These videos that MDT is putting out are the instructional version of pork rinds.
Interesting so it sounds like Francis is truing mv to 800 and then beyond that he is truing bc. Most guys I’ve talked to true mv only to 600 and beyond that it’s all bc.
Easily the dumbest thing I have read all week and clearly shows you don't compete in long range, nor are very good at it. 308 is an antique and can't keep up in the slightest in 2024
@@realsavourI RARELY ever need to adjust BC in the field once a given barrel and lot of bullets have been trued once this way. This was the first time I use that lot of projectiles in this barrel and it was ever so slightly different than my prior solutions with other barrels.
@@realsavourI'll true put to 1200-1500 and that data will carry me through the life of the barrel. That's plenty far for basic BC validation (+-.003 points). Some facilities we can get past 1500-1700 but that's way more than needed for most of the shots we will take in most PRS matches.
@@doggonefune79we only did this for the sake of the video and time. We hadn't run our rifles yet and all of us needed to validate data, so we ran them all at the same time. Normally, you'd do it on your own or one at a time, of course. Thanks for watching!
I love it. A little more in depth than the shorts.
Will make sure to keep them coming!
Thank you guys and MDT for putting out these great videos. Learn something new in every video.
Our pleasure and we will make sure to keep them coming!
@@MDTTACThis same video but Rimfire please! Lolz
@@FieroGTXX
No way. When you’re shooting blueberries and raisins, stick to 25 to 50 yards max.
Great explanation.... The only thing I'd add for newer shooters is to keep an eye on the temperature flux during the course of fire between all those ranges.... The temp can change significantly throughout a day of shooting. Especially if having to relocate targets throughout the shoot, which requires a lot more time.
Good point
good stuff guys. cheers.
A nice explanation of something I knew a little about, but now the rest is much clearer.
Love these vids, keep them coming. I use Applied Ballistics and Hornady 4DOF. I think the 4DOF is more accurate if you shoot a bullet in their library, since it uses actual radar measurement (coefficient of drag as a function of velocity, or CD Mach model instead of the outdated BC model). I’ve noticed Applied Ballistics has recently started using custom radar curves, like Hornady…but that is specific to an individual’s rifle as measured in the field at events. Both are good solvers, and both get me on target but I would say the Applied Ballistics requires me to true muzzle velocity at mid range and BC at long range to fit the curve to my rifle system. 4DOF tends to be spot on out of the box if shooting Hornady bullets.
AB used radar data before 4DOF, you have to select CDM instead of G1/G7 when choosing a bullet in the library. It’s different from the PDM.
Anyone familiar with the Vortex Razor Gen III turrets know that the zero adjustment is not limited to .1 mil increments. Not sure if other high end glass has this feature. It is one of many reasons I have these on my PRS rifles. They also allow for quick external adjustments to zero, no disassembly of the turret and internals.
VERY well explained !!....as always, & as always - Thank You Sir for your generosity to share, You & Andy are the best.
Thank you for the feedback and we will make sure to keep these videos coming!
Excellent tutorial Francis 👍
Perfect timing, working on fully understanding this process right now. Key point seems to be the extended range shots before tweaking the BC, and then if you are low, lower your BC. I know technically you should be at something like 80-90% of where the round approaches the super to sub transition.
Exactly. You generally want to be as close to Mach 1-1.2 as possible before even touching BC value.
Great video. I don't get to shoot much any longer being old and sick, but when I used to varmint hunt I did something like this, but only out to about 500 yards with my .243 remington varmint or Ruger Number 1 varmint. Wind was more of a problem than anything for me. I used to record everything in a note book.. Temp, wind, humidity, sun or clouds, etc, and I was always wondering where my first shot on a cold clean barrel would be. My Remington was such a good shooter and put the yodel dogs down right now. ❤
Good stuff guys.
Thank you and we will make sure to keep this content coming!
Great instructional video! I can honestly say, I now have a better understanding of the process. Thanks again!
We are glad it helped and will make sure to keep this content coming
Great video! Thanks for the information.
You're welcome and we will make sure to keep them coming!
Great information Francis, Thank you.
You're welcome!
I'm feeling very good about how I shoot with the equipment I have after watching this video.
Well done!!!!!
@mdttac- have you noticed different velocities with the Garmin direct mounted to the rifle vs it being on the ground next to the rifle?
Have not confirmed
Still not seeing how this is a substitute for just moving your zero up one tenth. Doesnt that 1000 dollar solver change this data up internally when it sees live on station pressure/alt/humidity/temp etc etc based off of your bullets bc and velocity? If not, was the solver a waste of a purchase then? If you shoot a 100yd, then mid way, then max range, and you're all consistently a tenth low, why wouldn't you just move your zero up one tenth?
I usually do try to adjust the 0 to perfect but sometimes if you’re running in mils, you jump between 1/4” low to 1/4” high because the adjustment isn’t as precise. Trueing really comes into effect at the longer ranges to make sure your bc is correct. You can have a dead on zero but be a little off on the bc and it will change your impact. Bullet bc on the box is what the manufacturer says it is supposed to be but they vary a little lot to lot
you are thinking too hard lol, Save the rounds and time, shoot a group, if its very close then just plug the offset into your solver, you will be going off your solver when shooting at distance anyway. if that .2 bothers your OCD that much then change it 😂 also if you payed a grand for your solver you probably got ripped off, go back to the store and return it 😂
PRS rimfire guy here. I agree. If it's .1 MRAD LOW. Just change it on the gun cuz it affects all holds from zero. In Rimfire that's huge. I've done kestrel tweaks too. Either works. But I'd give that scope a click and keep going. The important thing is to understand that the 10th is there and how to handle it.
I agree for PRS Rimfire I want a hard zero, because we are shooting at that zero distance, and sometimes as close as 25 yds. I get using the zero offset on the solver with centerfire PRS because it speeds up the process the morning of a match. Just remember that it’s in the solver for future.
@@DefZen343😂 exactly! 1k is wild 🤙🏽
Awesome information. I’m curious how you are able to adjust your BC for 1200 yds using the applied ballistics solver. Are you utilizing cal DSF? I’m assuming you’re running a CDM or PDM given your relationship with applied ballistics, unless this video is meant to demonstrate methods using traditional G7/G1 drag models. With the accuracy of modern chronographs, I think the ability to tweak CDM’s to better represent drag from your specific barrel/lot of ammo would be pretty powerful moving forward. If there’s a way to do it now it would be great to understand how! Thanks
In this video, I simply showed how you would adjust if using a standard G7 BC based solution.
If you were using an AB CDM based drag model, using Cal DSF would be the best option.
@ awesome I really appreciate the reply!
Very good video
Ok, if you notice at your zero @100 is a MIL low or high, beginner's question here - why wouldn't you fix it?
Make a couple of clicks & redefine your zero, right?
I understand the purpose of the test, and ammo isn't cheap - but I see this in a lot of videos. In fact, MOST videos - even in flat-shooting bullets like 6.5CM, 6.5PRC, 7PRC - no matter who his zero'ing their rifle, no matter what their budget, nobody ever seems to care about that last MIL. It always ends with "Ok that's close enough to zero", and the day continues. I get how group sizes, not bullseyes, define a rifle's accuracy, that part's cool.
Maybe it's an OCD I have - and believe me, this is a question only, I'm a beginner learning online, I can barely put ammo in the proper direction. But here we are, with a super expensive rifle and a scope that cost as much as a good used Toyota, you're 2 inches from dead center. Your groups are < MOA. Even if it's just cosmetic, there seems to be this invisible line surrounding a bullseye that shooters seem to stay out of. It's what, 4 clicks on your scope dial & you're in the red every time @ 100yds? Is there some superstition I'm missing? If it's windy or something I get it, but 100yards/meters, it'd have to be a hurricane...
Because sometimes your correction puts you on the opposite side of the POA than where it was. If you KNOW your zero is consistently low or high put it in the solver and let it do the work instead of chasing a zero and burning ammo. I used to be the same way but at the end of the day the bullet will RARELY ever be perfect bullseye anyway and I've wasted a lot of ammo chasing that. Another reason is your zero changes from day to day or week to week depending on conditions that's why you true it once and tell the app "in these conditions it was hitting here" and the app corrects your hold for any condition. Put garbage in you'll get garbage out.
Great question! If our zero was a full mil low, we would absolutely change our zero to as close to perfect as possible. Then remeasure any offset and apply as necessary.
I typically use the offset in match or field conditions where it is not possible to shoot multiple zeros or the zero position is compromised/difficult. In those cases, it's typcially safer to simply put in an offset that corrects for the observed difference rather than slip your turrets.
If your zero shift was temporary, you simply undo the change in your solver and your back in action!
Just to clarify your question: you are saying the "last MIL".... Do you mean the last .1 Mil (i.e. tenth of a mil)?
If you mean "why don't we chase/fix the last .1 mil (tenth), this is because groups will move slightly around your POA without changing anything.
Shoot 10 5 shot groups at a horizontal line of aimpoint. Measure the average distance from center of each group to horizontal aim line (vertical height) and find the vertical distance between the highest group and the lowest group (i.e. .25" above POA and -.15" low = .4" net). If that number is >.3" you are not likely to know the EXACT avg group center from any given group and will potentially create more error by slipping zero.
@@ndhunter621 Perfect, thank you!
@@FrancisColonPRS Absolutely answers it, thanks! As for the "last MIL", I ignorantly meant the last millimeter.
We all see how groups go - we'll see 2 go into the same hole, and the next will end up 1/2" away, which is still incredible accuracy @ 100yds. That one "errant" shot, from what I've learned so far, is most likely the temp of the barrel, but it could be the ammo, it could be wind, it could be micro-adjustments. Chasing an absolute zero in the bullseye just seems like a logical progression to a beginner, especially when you're getting them all in the same hole, 2" away from bullseye.
With all the advancements in the last 20-30yrs re: accuracy, we might soon see accuracy that will allow a reliable, consistent, dead-on bullseye @ 100yds. And I'm green enough to think that's gonna happen in my lifetime & it's worth dumping thousands in ammo chasing it.
If I had to guess now, I'd say it'd be PRC ammo of some kind, and an indoor range.
K&M I see....excellent range.
Yes it is!
Frances, are you regularly using G7 BC in your solver rather than a custom drag model, or even personal drag model?
Hey Chris! I use both regularly. 95% of the time, the CDM will very good alignment with my bullet/barrel combo (nearly better than my rifle is cable of grouping at distance). However there are some small cases where specific bullet lots or barrels have substantially different effective drag. The benefit of using the CDM is that you can use DSF (Drop Scale Factor) at specific distances to quickly true your solutions to near perfection. This will solve a few issues over using just a G7 model and truing Zero Height/Offset, MV and Drag (namely, it will help correct for scope tracking errors).
I have an 80-year-old Marlin model 80. Is it possible to get a chassis made for it? It shoots beautifully, but I don't want to alter the firearm in any way, so I'm very limited on sight options.
Unfortunately, will not be looking at making a chassis for the Marlin model 80
I still don’t understand when you should change your BC vs just change your MV.
When truing, if you know your MV via a chronograph and are trying to true, then you will play with the BC because that is the unknown variable. Without a chrono and shooting within 500yrds, take the BC off the box and play with velocity till things match up. Reasoning for this is because up to about 500yrds, velocity will make more of a difference on how much the bullet drops than BC does because the bullet simply hasn’t gone far enough for aerodynamics (BC) to play a large role. Accurate BC is primarily for 500yrd+ shooting where the bullet is no longer zipping through air quick enough to not be bothered by stagnant air.
Generally, adjusting BC based on any shots inside 700-800 yards for an efficient 6mm or 6.5mm projectile is going to cause bigger errors at extended range.
More often than not, if you have substantial errors in data inside 800yds, it's due to an input error, scope tracking or even misidentifying a target range.
@@FrancisColonPRS I don’t disagree, this is just assuming that the shooter has done everything else correctly and are trying to map out impacts in that range where BC begins to change. If you are going beyond 1000 and into ELR, there’s more work to be done.
What suppressor are you using?
Can you guys do a video on setting diopter....and not the normal look at the blue sky....
Im talking about like Francis was speaking of in miles to matches.....at around 50 something minutes
We can look at it!
what pen was he using man
Save rounds? Ida dialed up a click n called her good.
Wouldn't the 800 yard be 1/4 moa off not a half moa. He has it broken into 2" segments. Just making sure i am not getting this wrong
Yeah I just watched the video again and I did miss speak on that one. The shots landed about .25 MOA low (similar to 500yd target), not half as I said in video. We were
@FrancisColonPRS cool, just thought I missed something. Makes sense now.
It seems like your consistently low from your 100 yard zero out, wouldn’t be easier to paint a water line on the target and actually zero at 100 and shoot to the line
What bullet are you shooting that's a .304 BC?
6 Dasher
@@MDTTAC Thanks. I mean what bullet are you shooting that's a .304 BC?
@@L0NGRNGEHornady 110 A-Tip
The cartridge I used in this video was a 6.5CM using 140 Hybrids.
@@FrancisColonPRS Ah cool thank you. That's making more sense. Great video.
Anything not to zero your gun, huh....
Was wondering that too why not just adjust your zero a click
It's not that we don't zero our guns, quite the opposite: we obsess about get a great zero while in know environments. The challenge is when other issues compound to create small (apparent ) shifts in zero (like mirage, lighting conditions, etc). When those conditions disappear, so does your zero so you'd end up chasing zero through the weekend.
Instead, we will note the offset and shoot it until we see shots trending away from known data and adjust accordingly.
@FrancisColonPRS sure, but if you're inputting a zero offset it's the same end result in terms of chasing your zero, or in this case your data. So you either have confidence in your zero and the data you shoot when truing or not. What you're doing is 6 vs 1/2 dozen except it's unnecessarily complicated.
You were at least 1/2 moa low in your zero and then at least a 0.1mrad all the way out. By all evidence you just needed to come .1. And on top of that, the video doesn't really cover "truing". It's literally just you shooting a zero and data at three ranges. Truing usually involves deriving a BC or MV. Hence truing something. Otherwise you're just gathering data.
@@RB-dc2bp I can appreciate your point of view and totally understand what you are saying. We shared the process we use when traveling across different venues across the country: Zero (note offset but don't change it yet), shoot 5, 8, 1k+ noting impact locations and reconfirm zero. Then check solutions with zero offset applied. If data still needs further corrections, you could definitely adjust zero and/or other things such as BC or MV to "true" but in this video, out data "errors" were simply a real offset of .25" low of point of aim. I could have slipped turret up .1 mil, but I tend to trust that my initial zero was correct and something about the zero range conditions are causing a small POI change that could disappear when sun comes up or mirage goes away.
Another reason I tend to keep zero slightly low (if between clicks) is that our rifles will tend to gain velocity over the course of 200+ rounds, and leaving zero *slightly* low will typically get washed out as gun speeds up 5-15fps over the weekend.
Appreciate you watching and if your see us at a match in the future, please say hello! Good luck this season !
@@FrancisColonPRS look, I know you don't want to go back and forth with some dude on the internet. But....
I agree that maintaining and being able to shoot your zero in a variety of environments and positions is the real trick and something that a lot of people undervalue. But if you're going to demonstrate how to true a ballistic computer, distrusting the results isn't a good lesson.
I'm pretty critical of civilian PRS competitors as instructors. And your last video is a good example. Setting up a rifle properly. You exchanged rifles with a big dude and showed how his LOP was too long. Wow, big surprise. But you all never showed how to set up a rifle. And you all never made good on the title of the video. How is a rifle that is set up for a shooter, but slightly incorrectly, responsible for misses?
Dude, if you're going to try to be an instructor you have to demonstrate tangible outcomes. Watch Ben Stoegers videos. He does a good job. These videos that MDT is putting out are the instructional version of pork rinds.
Holy smokes, what the hell did I just watch..😮
Isn't that a can of pop?
Coke!😉
Pop, soda, Coke, Pepsi... They are all the same if you're in the south right?😂 😊
Interesting so it sounds like Francis is truing mv to 800 and then beyond that he is truing bc. Most guys I’ve talked to true mv only to 600 and beyond that it’s all bc.
Yep, its important to get out to the 1000 yards then walk it back and re confirm at 600 yards
“I don’t shoot 6mm bullets because I don’t sit to pee” -.308 gang
Easily the dumbest thing I have read all week and clearly shows you don't compete in long range, nor are very good at it. 308 is an antique and can't keep up in the slightest in 2024
Don't need to when you're wearing diapers, peepaw
lol
Can someone translate? I don't speak poor.
Hello fellow rock thrower, I also own a .308 haven't used it since I bought a 6.5 PRC though😂
Are any of you using Zero angle instead of zero range? Looks like everyone's using zero range...
I do not; I simply validate the actual distance to my 100yd zero target to +-1 of 100yds, then input the average zero offset into solver.
@@MDTTAC so you're adjusting the bc in your solver everywhere you go?
@@realsavourI RARELY ever need to adjust BC in the field once a given barrel and lot of bullets have been trued once this way. This was the first time I use that lot of projectiles in this barrel and it was ever so slightly different than my prior solutions with other barrels.
@@FrancisColonPRS you likely don't shoot that far
@@realsavourI'll true put to 1200-1500 and that data will carry me through the life of the barrel. That's plenty far for basic BC validation (+-.003 points).
Some facilities we can get past 1500-1700 but that's way more than needed for most of the shots we will take in most PRS matches.
"Soda" Can
Lolz
I bet it's "pop" after they hit it! 😂
I really don’t understand why you would have multiple shooters and rifles to collect your data🤷🏻♂️
@@doggonefune79we only did this for the sake of the video and time. We hadn't run our rifles yet and all of us needed to validate data, so we ran them all at the same time.
Normally, you'd do it on your own or one at a time, of course. Thanks for watching!
Who says soda!?!? It must be a southern thing! 😂.