Two of my favorite examples of big drums with big guitars are In Eutero (Nirvana) and Houdini (Melvins). But what's interesting about the tone of the drums is that they're not huge because they have slamming samples and close mics in your face like an early Paramore record. The drums are huge because the rooms are blown up. The sound of the record is the sound of a huge room. Even if by some objective metrics the Nirvana and Melvins mixes are smaller, they FEEL massive because of how the rooms are utilized. It seems to me size is often mistaken for things being in your face all the time which is not always the case. Of course, both of these albums do have different balances and relationships between the drums, guitars, and vocals. But what they have in common is a superb sense of depth that enhances the perception of size in the mixes.
I must be weird, I loved this. I've watched many videos over the years searching for the odd nugget here and there. But, to me at least, this is pure paydirt. It's the way you approach it from a mastering perspective. Clearly defined concepts and useful suggestions. Been trying to get the best out of recent recordings. The timing couldn't be more perfect. Thank you Justin. Weird is wonderful.
Amazing lesson Justin. Everything under the sun is about EDM or pop, so I was so glad to have found your video on this. You have solidified many pieces of mixing, in clear words, that many of us find hard to nail down. I can rarely hang through presentations longer than 10 minutes, but I was glued to this. I've been recording, writing, mixing for a long time but you helped solidify a lot of things that I haven't been able to clearly see on my own. Thank you... liked and subscribed.
So awesome to hear Wayne! Psyched to have you as a listener. I know what you’re saying. When I’m deeply interested in a subject and find a good presenter, I can listen for hours, but if I’m not, I can tune out in under a minute 😆 -Justin
Very helpful! A lot of the time when you’re talking about width or big sounding guitar and drums, it just makes me think about how much song arrangement matters to go from a good mix and a great mix. I definitely would benefit from a similar video for modern pop and rap. I have a lot of trouble with weighing the importance of all the elements added.
No.6 :: the 'Grizzly BeAr' reference.. that old garage band kick is what got me. Good info. 'Know what the rule is before, if you are going to break them.'
This is such great advice! I’ve been so guilty of trying to make drums sound huge at the expense of guitars. Recently, I was mixing a punk rock song and I referenced a Green Day song and had this realization. The guitars are SO loud and big in a lot of their songs. I followed suit and the mix is so much more exciting.
I’ve had exactly the same experience and have been using Green Day as a reference for my guitars in a mix. Primarily being a drummer myself I often overcook the drums.
@@SonicScoop my pleasure, Justin! Also, my name is Matt! User name is Make-Music-Or-Die ;) I get the Cordie thing more than I thought I would! Haha cheers!
The thing that’s tripped me up the most in the past with mixing rock is trying to make both the guitars and the drums big. Took me a while, and listening more critically to great-sounding rock records to realize it’s a trade off. Also, giving the guitars uninterrupted real estate on the sides-especially keeping vox out of there most of the time-took a while. Great insights, thank you!
Justin. Excellent lesson. So many great ideas and thoughts. I will need to try them on my current mix and see how things work out. Thanks for making this lesson.
Awesome video, Justin! And yes I’m weird just like you. The one thing I would add is how important saturation is in this overly digital age we live in. Nothing sounds worse than a thin, harsh, brittle sounding rock record.
I watched a lot of your videos and a lot of things you said turned out to be already in my knowledge base, but here are some diamonds for me right there.
Invaluable information 💯 Your bit about Rock requiring the focus to be on the midrange is absolute TRUTH! When the focus shifts to a prominent high hat, the mix becomes too bright and loses its grit, and Rock is synonymous with GRIT! As for balance between drums and guitar in Rock mixes, my favorite references are Rush "Signals" and "Moving Pictures". The last two records that the legendary Terry Brown produced for the band. In those two records, we have a power trio and producer who'd been working together for a couple of decades and learned how to perfectly balance the drums, bass and guitar. Someone could argue that those Rush albums are centered around the drumming, because of how powerful and technical Peart played. Yet, the guitars are in the forefront, driving the music, with equal presence as the drums - and synths on the last few records. Geddy's bass on Rush records is often way up the neck, and doing lots of fills and improvised licks. For that sound, Terry used little to no reverb or delay, forcing the bass to be centered and very narrow. Meanwhile, Lifeson was very wide on the landscape with all sorts of choruses, delays and reverbs, and sometimes double-tracking, but rarely improvising inside of riffs. I've never walked away from Rush albums, especially the aforementioned, thinking how "great the drumming was". It's always about the WHOLE with Terry Brown and Rush. Look to Terry Brown for Rock production. He never disappoints!
awesome. Always wondered how breaking benjamin was mixed, for that effect, huge guitars and drums... even the clean guitar tones. fell on black days is my favorite from cornell. Thanks for the awesome contet! Cheers from Brazil!
Great info. I usually find these list types videos a little vague but this one was super helpful, especially as a starting point for further investigation!
Hey Justin, thank you so much for this video. Just what I needed as I’m currently mixing a Country Rock track. I’ve gone through Mixing Breakthroughs and I’m another to add to your positive testimony list. As guaranteed, has been a breakthrough in my mixing and I’m finally getting confident enough in my own mixes to finish them so I can send them over to you for mastering… but this video has been one of the most helpful conceptually for me of any you’ve put out… and I’ve watched just about every YT video you’ve released. Thanks again, you’re one of the best content creators in audio around!
Absolutely loved these tips as I was meditating on them recently concerning how alot of japanese rock bands from the 90s were mixed real interestingly concerning ratio of drums, vocals, bass, & guitars(I almost always can hear the bass really well unlike in alot of western rock music even of the same era...it really ends up driving the melody of the song in a pleasant more musical way). Also, heres a tip for mixing into bus compression in the box: dont actually use the compression but instead settle on a bus saturation to compress everything musically as you mix into it. Then when youre mix is finishing up you can gently do the whole slow attack clamp on the mix thing IF it sounds good otherwise settle for a nice multiband compressor that has mid/side so you can specifically focus on the mono middle frequency range that often benefits from that extra tightening & pump. Also dont forget you can always bus just the music together & multiband clamp down on frequencies even tighter using this technique w/o screwing up the vocal balance which Id presume will always be the most important part of your mix to not screw up(itll even give more space for the vocals). Also dont forget you can use ALL of these techniques together as I find them to be the only bus compression options in the box that really works(cuz no vst can compete w/ the set it & forget it style of those legendary sexy expensive analog compressors w/ their REAL analog color clamping down on the mix). Using the few plugins w/ saturation that sounds decent & doesnt hijack the mix making it sound cheap & blocky, Im now extra careful to use super TINY amounts of the ones I like & I mean turning your music down stupid low as to barely hit the threshold of it while still hearing a difference(after applying makeup gain). I use this trick in general: turning signals down as low as possible before hitting plugins for their "analog emulated" saturation, then using a ton of makeup gain to bring them back to level(most any digital saturation will sound better when hit super low & I dont mean turning down a mix knob which is just parallel combining it unlike my technique which colors/wets the whole dry signal & thus effects/compresses the transients & entire tone of the signal). What you also dont wanna do though is chase your tail trying to do analog techniques in 100% digital mixes...its self sabotage. You dont want to be trying to fix things w/ your compression settings already on the bus undoing & hijacking your every mix decision & for what? A digital knock off that never sounded as good as the analog style youre going for? The real magic of mixing into analog compressors was the tried & trustworthy glue-like saturation that was sortve like the Mitus Touch in making all songs sound "right" tonally as the compression settings did next to nothing. I personally dont believe trusted analog bus compression settings EVER "work" when used in the box via any VST replica. Thats not me saying dont use those plugins but rather me saying theyll never give you that coveted sound youre after so to even try is self sabotage. Its rather our job in the box to discover a new recipe that works using all these plugins in brand new ways while noting the theories behind why what worked in analog. We have to make the case clear that specifically digital & analog saturation fundamentally ARENT the same & wont give you a close enough sound to ever replace the analog version for the digital version(unless you have some tricked out settings & mix chain recipes that you DISCOVERED). For example, you can sooner call tangerine juice "orange juice"" which 99.9% of people will boldly say it isnt despite their similarities. Still, you can sooner say that than say digital saturation can substitute analog. I mean, it can but it will never sound the same is the point & for that reason theres no point in using it the SAME way when you can just as easily use it completely differently & actually get the benefits out of it all the while accepting the fact that your outcome still wont be close but at least can compete rather than hijack your intention for using it in the 1st place. The closest you can get is similar & even that is hard to achieve especially when using analog era techniques instead of approaching it fundamentally differently. A good comparison would be like comparing Superman to Batman...theyre both heroes w/ capes but can Batman REALLY fly or does he have to fundamentally approach being a hero differently than Superman? Thats how I see analog techniques like bus compression in the box....even the pultec trick on pultec VSTs never sounds as good but I do use the theory behind it(resonance bumps when EQing, etc). I see comparing analog & digital now like comparing sci fi cartoons w/ the laws of harsh reality. We have to make a bold distinction or we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. What Jet Li can do in a movie fighting 50 guys & never getting tired is nothing like what we see watching the greatest fighters of all time in UFC gassing out of energy after 5 rounds against 1 guy. You can do almost anything in fiction vs reality...likewise, most analog saturation sounds nice despite what they add/subtract from the signal but digital saturation can screw everything up the 1st time you slap one on(already being hit too hard, already square & fake sounding) let alone stacking them on multiple tracks & wondering why your end result pales in comparison to such techniques in analog era. My current technique is all Ive found that actually competes similarly(using saturation early & mb comp later). My thought is: why even try making "apple pie" using oranges when they dont taste anything alike despite being sweet fruits? Why not try to discover something else that competes like peach cobbler? That kind of complex thinking is what I think everybody needs when tackling bus compression & old legendary analog techniques in the box w/o hardware. Im basically saying theres alot of misinformation when it comes to bus compression & digital saturation in the box lol. it often leaves us looking like a guy using nunchuks as though it were a sword & then wondering why everytime we swing we keep hurting ourselves & not our enemy lol. But if we actually have a mind to discover a way to use it differently, it can actually work in our favor...because as of today I think digital saturation is like a curse to most home studio mixers surfing youtube for analog era tips "that work". Sorry for the long thorough comment, Im a passionate Pisces minded mixer lol.
Very interesting point. That’s something I’ve heard on a lot of recent new radio releases. They are suffering from in the box digital sounding saturation(doing too much?) Especially when you hear it cloud over the whole mix. Like you can hear the exact harmonics from the saturation from one song to the next regardless of genre. That wouldn’t happen in analog realm where every unit is unique. They all sound smooth and cool. But it’s almost too “safe” sounding. Like way too tame and flat. No adventure. It’s a problem I hear mostly in genres like alt pop, new post punk, and such, but still happens some in rock worldI guess that would be my addition to Justin’s list as well
On samples: There's no guilt in sample replacement, but something I like to do is record a snare in isolation with several different mics, and turn that into a sample for the song. This way the drummer and producer have control over the snare tone, but you get that clean sample sound. best of both worlds, you get to use a unique sound that is tailored to the song, but it still sounds professional and modern even if your room isn't epic.
One thing I like doing on cymbals is adding saturation on the overheads to everything above around 6k. It allows you to turn the highs down but the cymbals still sound full and rich.
For me, the great example of big forward drums is South of Heaven by Slayer. The whole album has drums and vocals pushed forward at the expense of guitars and yet it's still a legendary record.
Listening now. Yes, definitely stretches there where it feels like the drums are sitting on top of the guitars! Interesting that it came after Reign in Blood, which feels like the superior production to me in some ways. Even their timing as a band feels more consistent on the lead tracks of Reign in Blood relative to South of Heaven, and the mix choices around drums vs guitar feel better to me in Reign. But musically, if the songs are awesome, all that other stuff is pretty secondary! Thanks for the great comment, -Justin
@@SonicScoop Hi Justin. Reign In Blood is a genre defining album and I agree, it's better and definitely well produced. South of Heaven feels like it was mixed to show off drum skills of Dave Lombardo more than anything. If you listen to their next album, Seasons In The Abyss it's all back to "normal", polished and well produced/mixed state.
Great analogy with the bow. One other thought about guitar sounds, I actually think that both in rock and metal it is often times the bass that creates the big guitar illusion. At least when you’re dealing with the low frequency content.
Great tips. I like your videos! I am familiar with all of these tips, and it is comforting to hear from another professional! Curious if you ever use these, which I use sometimes: 1. run the drum buss and bass buss into a single comp (not parallel) to help the kick and bass glue together. 2. send drum, bass, guitar, and keys into a parallel comp to bring up density. 3. putting a comp on the electric guitar bus, sidechained from lead vocals for just a couple db of clarity whenever the vocalist is singing.
Loving this format! I needed to hear this, especially the first point is hUge! I mix in several genres and would love to hear more, also comparing / cross referencing genres as well (like mixing rock like pop, or mixing pop like rock). You are a master communicator! There is not much out there on more niche genres like post rock, film music / trailers and smooth jazz, which could be cool if you have experiences.
Thank you, good stuff. I'm retired and love to make synthwave but I also love Yes. I always become Rick Wakeman when producing and it's 'why use 3 notes or 3 chords when you can cram in 30'. A hot mess but it amuses me.
Thanks for another awesome video. On most rock records (old and new) I feel that the drums could come an inch or two more forward. Many times I feel the drums are struggling to cut through the wall of guitars. Of course, the guitar sound and arrangements have a lot to do with this. If you have a wall of guitars, then the drums get buried. But, one record comes to my mind where the drums are big and powerful, yet not at the expense of guitars - Title Of Record by Filter. The song Welcome To The Fold is a good example of this. An awesome, big and punchy sounding mix. Another example would be the first two albums of Rage Against The Machine. Even though the drums have a more roomy, natural feel (especially on Evil Empire) they still don't get lost in guitars, because one string riffs leave much more space and having only one guitar + bass also contributes to this. As a drummer, I'm a fan of such records, of course. I like drums to be able to speak clearly and with authority, but It's a real challenge to get the drums/guitars balance off just the right amount in order to not have them perfectly balanced, which results in an uninteresting and flat sounding mix. Imho getting a feel for un-balancing the mix just right takes our mixes to a higher level.
I struggle with drummers that kill their cymbals and it bleeds into the tom mics. The EQ on the toms usually calls for a little contact, and the cymbals can get very obnoxious very fast if you are EQing a little aggressively. It's a never ending struggle.
You need the Silencer plugin and/or edit them right, splitting the clip and lowpassing the sustain. You should also record clean tom samples from the session to replace the nastiest hits.
These sound like some incredible tips. At the moment I am just starting my mixing journey and taking this more seriously than ever because my mixes are sounding no good the more I know. Currently I've gone right back to basics and layed down a simple 4 chord track whilst using superior drummer 3 and ezbass digital instruments to support the song. Is it possible to make a well mixed track using digital instruments like this or is it destined to be no good. Any advice would help. Many thanks.
I’d be VERY interested to hear your takes on production for electronic genres. Not the mainstream stuff, but the more underground and experimental stuff. People like Subtronics, Inzo, Rezz, Zeds dead etc. are doing things that just don’t sound like anyone else. How specifically do they push boundaries, what’s the commonalities, how do they differ from the more mainstream artists like a martin garrix or odesza?
I mix and master music that's a blend of straight up Rock and electronica, along the lines of, say, Ozric Tentacles, but heavier and much thicker. I find little to no help anywhere, on-line or in text books, on how to mix and master this style. Most every tutorial is about "standard" drums, bass, vocals, guitars, horns...and one or two keyboard sounds, at most. No one talks about MANY synths in a Rock or experimental context. We're flying solo!
This explains a lot. I always felt that the drums on Black Sabbath's "13" album sounded small and weak, but now I know that it was mixed that way to make Tony Iommi's guitars and Geezer Butler's bass sound HUGE, especially since Bill Ward wasn't on the record - they wanted to emphasize the other guys.
Wau. Really great video that summerise all the important steps in mixing rock music. I've been mixing rock a lot. I would say, rock mixes took 80 percent of my work. I totally agree with everything you've pointed out. I've got only one question. I worked once for Chris Lord Alge and he was asking me to hard pan everything. I really means EVERYTHING hard left, hard right. What do you think about this technique? Thanks for your answer :)
I like that “LCR” hard panning approach as a good starting place. I feel that some elements, like tom close mics, can potentially be distracting when hard panned and can sometimes benefit from being tucked a little. (But that depends a bit on how much of them are being used relative to rooms and overheads.) Hope that helps, Justin
As far as drum augmentation/samples, that wouldn't apply if using drum software like EZ/Superior Drummer right? those are pretty much already "Well recorded" samples?
Sure, but you can still craft the exact tone you want my layering multiple samples. This is actually very common in sample-based genres. There might be less “need” to do it, but it is still somewhat common, even then. Hope that helps! -Justin
With the “poking toms”, I notice that even a slight amount of compression- compression and limiting of any kind seems to dramatically alter the character of the sound. Even just a bit seems to push the sound “up” into itself, and is just a stark contrast to the dry version. And doing enough compression to mitigate a pokey tom is even less transparent. Perhaps im just now noticing this about compression but its definitely a thing. Ive had luck with RX, going in and automating the volume right at the peak. And or using a clipper if need be. Sometimes serial clippers (with each doing a little bit) is wayyy more transparent than compression. Another strategy is a clipper into tape saturation- although tape to my ears is also pretty dramatic in its effect Perhaps a dynamic eq or MB comp is the way to go here, for the 3-5k attack on the pokey toms. We will see! Regardless, its all very fun stuff
Takeaway: for a better rock mix, start shooting sloppy drummers with a traditional bow. No? Maybe, I've got things mixed up a bit... just maybe ;) Cringy jokes aside, great tips! Enjoy your weekend!
In my early days of interning at a popular Boston recording studio, one of my favorite engineers laid down this gem of an observation: "Recording engineers equate their kick drum sound to the size of their d*ck. 'Look how big and fat this thing sounds!' ."
Please someone, recommend some "great rock mixes" for me to study. I'm an old rock lover, grew up on Beatles and Stones and Motown, grew from there to enjoy Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, and 1970's Genesis. You can see my references are sonically outdated. Name some more contemporary "great rock mixes" for me to study that have the musical versatility, instrumentation, and musicality of songs like the best of the Beatles, Steely Dan and Genesis... (you know, with occasional strings, horns, synths, various keyboards and sound FX)... Thank you in advance...
I totally agree on those Zeppelin mixes. Being a guitar fan, I always wanted to hear those guitar pulled up in front of the drums. I'm sure there are 1000s of examples of big drums/big guitars. The first one that popped in my head was Bob Clearmountain's mix on The Stones' "Slave". It must work though because the drums are pretty straight forward without a bunch of cymbal work and the guitar is a very percussive lead line.
" ...should sound like?" Music fundamentalism, straight up. Right away, the 1st point is a really odd one. Why would every mixer want their rock mix sound like Ac/Dc, or some other classic rock mix? You want to be a copy of Mutt Lange, or any other known mixer? Thinking like that, is just lazy to me. Maybe you have to break rules, and "kill your idol", to advance sonically. I have influences as a musician especially, but if i were playing with them, i would show them what i would do with their influence. Im not going to just play with their exact licks, sound, attitude etc. I would do what the hell i want to do, and my hero can just watch it happen, just like the audience. Who gives a crap. What the hell happened to rock n roll attitude anyway? Everyone is just kissing everyone else's ass. Audio industry always has this certain kind of laziness in it, and it disgusts me. I love Ac/Dc's Back in Black. But at the same time, fuck Ac/Dc's Back in Black. That album matters, but it doesn't really matter. Dig it? I would only EVER purposely mix in some pre-existing style, A, if the band really demanded it, and B, if i were making a mix or an album , about the time when rock sounded a certain way in my youth. Make your own sound, that is the whole point of life itself! Have your mentors, fine, but find your own way of doing things. Influence is one thing, copying is something else. You killed rock n roll, not me.
I get where you are coming from. So much so, that this comment is funny to me because I feel like I spent almost half the episode talking about all the many exceptions to the general "rules" (or at least "norms") of rock production! I'm all for breaking unwritten rules and circumventing norms with intentionality and taste. I just think that in order to do that really well, you should know what they are first! Hope that makes sense, Justin PS: My best guess based on the comment is that you didn't listen to the episode yet... Because I think you'd have a very different comment if you did! :-) Check it out, and I think you might like it!! (I also never use AC/DC as an example.)
Thanks for the video, i do think you drag out your points too long. You make what is a simple point and then basically repeat it for 3 mins. I found myself skipping rhe waffle.
Lolololol ... You must be a guitarist before a well rounded producer to promote this kind of advice. I will agree that get awesome guitar sounds are crucial to a great rock record. But a rock record with amazing sounding drums and meg guitars... Still an awesome record. A rock record with huge guitars and tiny drums is 100% considered unprofessional
Nope, I mostly play bass and drums :-) And no one ever said anything about wanting “tiny” drums! But that is not the issue on the majority of beginners’ and intermediates’ rock mixes. Hands down, the number 1 amateur mistake on rock records that I encounter is not tiny drums, but tiny, tinny guitars. I can say this after having mastered countless records in he genre and noticing the prevailing trends, and what separates the more successful projects from the less successful ones. Of course you want drums to sound big. But if you make them sound big at the expense of guitars sounding big, you are going to have a bad time. Ultimately, it’s all about finding the right balance for the song. But in most cases, guitars on most rock records want to be bigger than kicks and toms and cymbals most of the time. If your toms and your hi hats are overshadowing your guitar parts, it’s probably not going to work out very well. There are exceptions where drums want to take a leading role over guitars, but as noted in the episode, they are more the 20% not the 80%. Hope that helps, -Justin
I don’t think rock and metal are the same thing :-) That said, I work on plenty of metal too. The tradeoff between guitar power and drum power still exists, though different sub genres handle it differently. Many of the principles here still apply, though depending on sub genre, can differ slightly. -Justin
I take it you haven’t met many hunters? Not my experience with them at all, as a group. I’m sure there are some sucky ones out there, but all the ones I know personally have incredible respect for animals and are generally what you would consider conservationists. To hunt-particularly with a traditional bow at ranges often we’ll below 20 feet-requires an insane level of respect for the animal. Otherwise, you are simply never getting that close to them. That said, I’m certain there are hunters that give hunters a bad name, just as with any pursuit. -Justin
Hey Justin, thank you so much for this video. Just what I needed as I’m currently mixing a Country Rock track. I’ve gone through Mixing Breakthroughs and I’m another to add to your positive testimony list. As guaranteed, has been a breakthrough in my mixing and I’m finally getting confident enough in my own mixes to finish them so I can send them over to you for mastering… but this video has been one of the most helpful conceptually for me of any you’ve put out… and I’ve watched just about every YT video you’ve released. Thanks again, you’re one of the best content creators in audio around!
Two of my favorite examples of big drums with big guitars are In Eutero (Nirvana) and Houdini (Melvins). But what's interesting about the tone of the drums is that they're not huge because they have slamming samples and close mics in your face like an early Paramore record. The drums are huge because the rooms are blown up. The sound of the record is the sound of a huge room. Even if by some objective metrics the Nirvana and Melvins mixes are smaller, they FEEL massive because of how the rooms are utilized. It seems to me size is often mistaken for things being in your face all the time which is not always the case. Of course, both of these albums do have different balances and relationships between the drums, guitars, and vocals. But what they have in common is a superb sense of depth that enhances the perception of size in the mixes.
fuck yeah, melvins
I've been making so many of these mistakes. Thank you for the awesome helpful advice!
I must be weird, I loved this.
I've watched many videos over the years searching for the odd nugget here and there. But, to me at least, this is pure paydirt. It's the way you approach it from a mastering perspective. Clearly defined concepts and useful suggestions. Been trying to get the best out of recent recordings. The timing couldn't be more perfect. Thank you Justin. Weird is wonderful.
Great podcast, I'd love you to do one for an acousticy, indie-folkish, singer songwriter sound. Cheers!
Amazing lesson Justin. Everything under the sun is about EDM or pop, so I was so glad to have found your video on this. You have solidified many pieces of mixing, in clear words, that many of us find hard to nail down. I can rarely hang through presentations longer than 10 minutes, but I was glued to this. I've been recording, writing, mixing for a long time but you helped solidify a lot of things that I haven't been able to clearly see on my own. Thank you... liked and subscribed.
So awesome to hear Wayne! Psyched to have you as a listener.
I know what you’re saying. When I’m deeply interested in a subject and find a good presenter, I can listen for hours, but if I’m not, I can tune out in under a minute 😆
-Justin
This video feels like a personal attack on everything I do :D
Great video, I love the style and depth of explanation
Haha, that’s what I’m here for! 😅 Thanks for tuning in!
-Justin
Very helpful! A lot of the time when you’re talking about width or big sounding guitar and drums, it just makes me think about how much song arrangement matters to go from a good mix and a great mix.
I definitely would benefit from a similar video for modern pop and rap. I have a lot of trouble with weighing the importance of all the elements added.
No.6 :: the 'Grizzly BeAr' reference.. that old garage band kick is what got me. Good info. 'Know what the rule is before, if you are going to break them.'
This is such great advice! I’ve been so guilty of trying to make drums sound huge at the expense of guitars. Recently, I was mixing a punk rock song and I referenced a Green Day song and had this realization. The guitars are SO loud and big in a lot of their songs. I followed suit and the mix is so much more exciting.
Awesome to hear Justin!
I’ve had exactly the same experience and have been using Green Day as a reference for my guitars in a mix. Primarily being a drummer myself I often overcook the drums.
I think your vids are my favorite long-format audio geekery! I get a lot of great perspective and reminders from you and appreciate them! Cheers!
So awesome to hear! Glad to have you tuning in, Cordie.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop my pleasure, Justin! Also, my name is Matt! User name is Make-Music-Or-Die ;) I get the Cordie thing more than I thought I would! Haha cheers!
Ha! I get it now. Thanks so much Matt! Hope to see more of you around the channel.
-Justin
The thing that’s tripped me up the most in the past with mixing rock is trying to make both the guitars and the drums big. Took me a while, and listening more critically to great-sounding rock records to realize it’s a trade off. Also, giving the guitars uninterrupted real estate on the sides-especially keeping vox out of there most of the time-took a while.
Great insights, thank you!
Thanks so much - this was really helpful
Good tutorial about blending different guitar parts to get a stereo field feel. Thanks
Justin. Excellent lesson. So many great ideas and thoughts. I will need to try them on my current mix and see how things work out. Thanks for making this lesson.
Awesome to hear Timothy! Glad to have you tuning in.
-Justin
Awesome video, Justin! And yes I’m weird just like you. The one thing I would add is how important saturation is in this overly digital age we live in. Nothing sounds worse than a thin, harsh, brittle sounding rock record.
I watched a lot of your videos and a lot of things you said turned out to be already in my knowledge base, but here are some diamonds for me right there.
Invaluable information 💯 Your bit about Rock requiring the focus to be on the midrange is absolute TRUTH! When the focus shifts to a prominent high hat, the mix becomes too bright and loses its grit, and Rock is synonymous with GRIT!
As for balance between drums and guitar in Rock mixes, my favorite references are Rush "Signals" and "Moving Pictures". The last two records that the legendary Terry Brown produced for the band.
In those two records, we have a power trio and producer who'd been working together for a couple of decades and learned how to perfectly balance the drums, bass and guitar.
Someone could argue that those Rush albums are centered around the drumming, because of how powerful and technical Peart played. Yet, the guitars are in the forefront, driving the music, with equal presence as the drums - and synths on the last few records.
Geddy's bass on Rush records is often way up the neck, and doing lots of fills and improvised licks. For that sound, Terry used little to no reverb or delay, forcing the bass to be centered and very narrow. Meanwhile, Lifeson was very wide on the landscape with all sorts of choruses, delays and reverbs, and sometimes double-tracking, but rarely improvising inside of riffs.
I've never walked away from Rush albums, especially the aforementioned, thinking how "great the drumming was". It's always about the WHOLE with Terry Brown and Rush.
Look to Terry Brown for Rock production. He never disappoints!
Great insights Jospeh, thanks for the awesome comment! Hope to see more of you around the channel :-)
-Justin
@@SonicScoop 💯👍🏻❗️
Thanks as always, hope you have a great day.
These last couple episodes are absolute goldmines!
awesome. Always wondered how breaking benjamin was mixed, for that effect, huge guitars and drums... even the clean guitar tones. fell on black days is my favorite from cornell. Thanks for the awesome contet! Cheers from Brazil!
Great info appreciate ya!
This was an awesome video ❤
This was super helpful, thank you Justin!! Another great video!
Great info. I usually find these list types videos a little vague but this one was super helpful, especially as a starting point for further investigation!
Thank you so much! I usually don't write comments, but this is THE BEST MIXING TUTORIAL I've seen so far! Super helpful and inspiring!
That is so awesome to hear Mickey! I hope you subscribe and hit the bell and tune in for more :-)
-Justin
Hey Justin, thank you so much for this video. Just what I needed as I’m currently mixing a Country Rock track. I’ve gone through Mixing Breakthroughs and I’m another to add to your positive testimony list. As guaranteed, has been a breakthrough in my mixing and I’m finally getting confident enough in my own mixes to finish them so I can send them over to you for mastering… but this video has been one of the most helpful conceptually for me of any you’ve put out… and I’ve watched just about every YT video you’ve released. Thanks again, you’re one of the best content creators in audio around!
Your best one so far, thanks! 🙏
Once again, THANK YOU Justin!
Thanks for tuning in!
loving the format already !
Absolutely loved these tips as I was meditating on them recently concerning how alot of japanese rock bands from the 90s were mixed real interestingly concerning ratio of drums, vocals, bass, & guitars(I almost always can hear the bass really well unlike in alot of western rock music even of the same era...it really ends up driving the melody of the song in a pleasant more musical way).
Also, heres a tip for mixing into bus compression in the box: dont actually use the compression but instead settle on a bus saturation to compress everything musically as you mix into it.
Then when youre mix is finishing up you can gently do the whole slow attack clamp on the mix thing IF it sounds good otherwise settle for a nice multiband compressor that has mid/side so you can specifically focus on the mono middle frequency range that often benefits from that extra tightening & pump.
Also dont forget you can always bus just the music together & multiband clamp down on frequencies even tighter using this technique w/o screwing up the vocal balance which Id presume will always be the most important part of your mix to not screw up(itll even give more space for the vocals).
Also dont forget you can use ALL of these techniques together as I find them to be the only bus compression options in the box that really works(cuz no vst can compete w/ the set it & forget it style of those legendary sexy expensive analog compressors w/ their REAL analog color clamping down on the mix).
Using the few plugins w/ saturation that sounds decent & doesnt hijack the mix making it sound cheap & blocky, Im now extra careful to use super TINY amounts of the ones I like & I mean turning your music down stupid low as to barely hit the threshold of it while still hearing a difference(after applying makeup gain).
I use this trick in general: turning signals down as low as possible before hitting plugins for their "analog emulated" saturation, then using a ton of makeup gain to bring them back to level(most any digital saturation will sound better when hit super low & I dont mean turning down a mix knob which is just parallel combining it unlike my technique which colors/wets the whole dry signal & thus effects/compresses the transients & entire tone of the signal).
What you also dont wanna do though is chase your tail trying to do analog techniques in 100% digital mixes...its self sabotage. You dont want to be trying to fix things w/ your compression settings already on the bus undoing & hijacking your every mix decision & for what? A digital knock off that never sounded as good as the analog style youre going for?
The real magic of mixing into analog compressors was the tried & trustworthy glue-like saturation that was sortve like the Mitus Touch in making all songs sound "right" tonally as the compression settings did next to nothing. I personally dont believe trusted analog bus compression settings EVER "work" when used in the box via any VST replica. Thats not me saying dont use those plugins but rather me saying theyll never give you that coveted sound youre after so to even try is self sabotage.
Its rather our job in the box to discover a new recipe that works using all these plugins in brand new ways while noting the theories behind why what worked in analog. We have to make the case clear that specifically digital & analog saturation fundamentally ARENT the same & wont give you a close enough sound to ever replace the analog version for the digital version(unless you have some tricked out settings & mix chain recipes that you DISCOVERED).
For example, you can sooner call tangerine juice "orange juice"" which 99.9% of people will boldly say it isnt despite their similarities. Still, you can sooner say that than say digital saturation can substitute analog. I mean, it can but it will never sound the same is the point & for that reason theres no point in using it the SAME way when you can just as easily use it completely differently & actually get the benefits out of it all the while accepting the fact that your outcome still wont be close but at least can compete rather than hijack your intention for using it in the 1st place.
The closest you can get is similar & even that is hard to achieve especially when using analog era techniques instead of approaching it fundamentally differently. A good comparison would be like comparing Superman to Batman...theyre both heroes w/ capes but can Batman REALLY fly or does he have to fundamentally approach being a hero differently than Superman? Thats how I see analog techniques like bus compression in the box....even the pultec trick on pultec VSTs never sounds as good but I do use the theory behind it(resonance bumps when EQing, etc).
I see comparing analog & digital now like comparing sci fi cartoons w/ the laws of harsh reality. We have to make a bold distinction or we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. What Jet Li can do in a movie fighting 50 guys & never getting tired is nothing like what we see watching the greatest fighters of all time in UFC gassing out of energy after 5 rounds against 1 guy.
You can do almost anything in fiction vs reality...likewise, most analog saturation sounds nice despite what they add/subtract from the signal but digital saturation can screw everything up the 1st time you slap one on(already being hit too hard, already square & fake sounding) let alone stacking them on multiple tracks & wondering why your end result pales in comparison to such techniques in analog era.
My current technique is all Ive found that actually competes similarly(using saturation early & mb comp later). My thought is: why even try making "apple pie" using oranges when they dont taste anything alike despite being sweet fruits? Why not try to discover something else that competes like peach cobbler? That kind of complex thinking is what I think everybody needs when tackling bus compression & old legendary analog techniques in the box w/o hardware.
Im basically saying theres alot of misinformation when it comes to bus compression & digital saturation in the box lol. it often leaves us looking like a guy using nunchuks as though it were a sword & then wondering why everytime we swing we keep hurting ourselves & not our enemy lol. But if we actually have a mind to discover a way to use it differently, it can actually work in our favor...because as of today I think digital saturation is like a curse to most home studio mixers surfing youtube for analog era tips "that work".
Sorry for the long thorough comment, Im a passionate Pisces minded mixer lol.
Very interesting point. That’s something I’ve heard on a lot of recent new radio releases. They are suffering from in the box digital sounding saturation(doing too much?) Especially when you hear it cloud over the whole mix. Like you can hear the exact harmonics from the saturation from one song to the next regardless of genre. That wouldn’t happen in analog realm where every unit is unique. They all sound smooth and cool. But it’s almost too “safe” sounding. Like way too tame and flat. No adventure. It’s a problem I hear mostly in genres like alt pop, new post punk, and such, but still happens some in rock worldI guess that would be my addition to Justin’s list as well
On samples: There's no guilt in sample replacement, but something I like to do is record a snare in isolation with several different mics, and turn that into a sample for the song. This way the drummer and producer have control over the snare tone, but you get that clean sample sound. best of both worlds, you get to use a unique sound that is tailored to the song, but it still sounds professional and modern even if your room isn't epic.
If I would've waited 5 minutes I'd hear you bring this up! Very good!
Thanks, Justin!
Thank you so much for this gold info! Really appreciate these.
So great to hear Matt! Hope to see more of you around the channel.
-Justin
One thing I like doing on cymbals is adding saturation on the overheads to everything above around 6k. It allows you to turn the highs down but the cymbals still sound full and rich.
For me, the great example of big forward drums is South of Heaven by Slayer. The whole album has drums and vocals pushed forward at the expense of guitars and yet it's still a legendary record.
Listening now. Yes, definitely stretches there where it feels like the drums are sitting on top of the guitars!
Interesting that it came after Reign in Blood, which feels like the superior production to me in some ways.
Even their timing as a band feels more consistent on the lead tracks of Reign in Blood relative to South of Heaven, and the mix choices around drums vs guitar feel better to me in Reign.
But musically, if the songs are awesome, all that other stuff is pretty secondary!
Thanks for the great comment,
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Hi Justin.
Reign In Blood is a genre defining album and I agree, it's better and definitely well produced.
South of Heaven feels like it was mixed to show off drum skills of Dave Lombardo more than anything. If you listen to their next album, Seasons In The Abyss it's all back to "normal", polished and well produced/mixed state.
Great analogy with the bow.
One other thought about guitar sounds, I actually think that both in rock and metal it is often times the bass that creates the big guitar illusion. At least when you’re dealing with the low frequency content.
Thanks Justin; as usual, a brilliantly constructed lesson. A lot to take away and digest...😁
Great stuff!!
Great tips. I like your videos! I am familiar with all of these tips, and it is comforting to hear from another professional! Curious if you ever use these, which I use sometimes: 1. run the drum buss and bass buss into a single comp (not parallel) to help the kick and bass glue together. 2. send drum, bass, guitar, and keys into a parallel comp to bring up density. 3. putting a comp on the electric guitar bus, sidechained from lead vocals for just a couple db of clarity whenever the vocalist is singing.
Loving this format! I needed to hear this, especially the first point is hUge! I mix in several genres and would love to hear more, also comparing / cross referencing genres as well (like mixing rock like pop, or mixing pop like rock). You are a master communicator! There is not much out there on more niche genres like post rock, film music / trailers and smooth jazz, which could be cool if you have experiences.
Thank you, good stuff. I'm retired and love to make synthwave but I also love Yes. I always become Rick Wakeman when producing and it's 'why use 3 notes or 3 chords when you can cram in 30'. A hot mess but it amuses me.
Thanks for another awesome video. On most rock records (old and new) I feel that the drums could come an inch or two more forward. Many times I feel the drums are struggling to cut through the wall of guitars. Of course, the guitar sound and arrangements have a lot to do with this. If you have a wall of guitars, then the drums get buried. But, one record comes to my mind where the drums are big and powerful, yet not at the expense of guitars - Title Of Record by Filter. The song Welcome To The Fold is a good example of this. An awesome, big and punchy sounding mix. Another example would be the first two albums of Rage Against The Machine. Even though the drums have a more roomy, natural feel (especially on Evil Empire) they still don't get lost in guitars, because one string riffs leave much more space and having only one guitar + bass also contributes to this. As a drummer, I'm a fan of such records, of course. I like drums to be able to speak clearly and with authority, but It's a real challenge to get the drums/guitars balance off just the right amount in order to not have them perfectly balanced, which results in an uninteresting and flat sounding mix. Imho getting a feel for un-balancing the mix just right takes our mixes to a higher level.
I struggle with drummers that kill their cymbals and it bleeds into the tom mics. The EQ on the toms usually calls for a little contact, and the cymbals can get very obnoxious very fast if you are EQing a little aggressively. It's a never ending struggle.
You need the Silencer plugin and/or edit them right, splitting the clip and lowpassing the sustain. You should also record clean tom samples from the session to replace the nastiest hits.
Great video!
Super great stuff!
Really helpful - thank you very much.
Hunting humanely hahahahaha good one!! But great content, great guidance!! As always!!
Great tips, full watch..
Thank you so much - This was a great one!
These sound like some incredible tips. At the moment I am just starting my mixing journey and taking this more seriously than ever because my mixes are sounding no good the more I know. Currently I've gone right back to basics and layed down a simple 4 chord track whilst using superior drummer 3 and ezbass digital instruments to support the song. Is it possible to make a well mixed track using digital instruments like this or is it destined to be no good. Any advice would help. Many thanks.
Essential advice I didn't know I needed at this time
Superb.
Thank you !
I’d be VERY interested to hear your takes on production for electronic genres. Not the mainstream stuff, but the more underground and experimental stuff. People like Subtronics, Inzo, Rezz, Zeds dead etc. are doing things that just don’t sound like anyone else. How specifically do they push boundaries, what’s the commonalities, how do they differ from the more mainstream artists like a martin garrix or odesza?
I mix and master music that's a blend of straight up Rock and electronica, along the lines of, say, Ozric Tentacles, but heavier and much thicker.
I find little to no help anywhere, on-line or in text books, on how to mix and master this style. Most every tutorial is about "standard" drums, bass, vocals, guitars, horns...and one or two keyboard sounds, at most. No one talks about MANY synths in a Rock or experimental context.
We're flying solo!
Thank you!
Fantastic!
Great advice! Speaking to meeeeeeee!!
This explains a lot. I always felt that the drums on Black Sabbath's "13" album sounded small and weak, but now I know that it was mixed that way to make Tony Iommi's guitars and Geezer Butler's bass sound HUGE, especially since Bill Ward wasn't on the record - they wanted to emphasize the other guys.
Andrew Scheps, enough said
hey justin im impressed by your speaking skills and articulation. Did you ever take diction classes?
No sir! But thank you! :-)
-Justin
Wau. Really great video that summerise all the important steps in mixing rock music. I've been mixing rock a lot. I would say, rock mixes took 80 percent of my work. I totally agree with everything you've pointed out. I've got only one question. I worked once for Chris Lord Alge and he was asking me to hard pan everything. I really means EVERYTHING hard left, hard right. What do you think about this technique? Thanks for your answer :)
I like that “LCR” hard panning approach as a good starting place.
I feel that some elements, like tom close mics, can potentially be distracting when hard panned and can sometimes benefit from being tucked a little. (But that depends a bit on how much of them are being used relative to rooms and overheads.)
Hope that helps,
Justin
As far as drum augmentation/samples, that wouldn't apply if using drum software like EZ/Superior Drummer right? those are pretty much already "Well recorded" samples?
Sure, but you can still craft the exact tone you want my layering multiple samples.
This is actually very common in sample-based genres.
There might be less “need” to do it, but it is still somewhat common, even then.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop that is helpful, thank you.
With the “poking toms”, I notice that even a slight amount of compression- compression and limiting of any kind seems to dramatically alter the character of the sound. Even just a bit seems to push the sound “up” into itself, and is just a stark contrast to the dry version. And doing enough compression to mitigate a pokey tom is even less transparent.
Perhaps im just now noticing this about compression but its definitely a thing.
Ive had luck with RX, going in and automating the volume right at the peak. And or using a clipper if need be. Sometimes serial clippers (with each doing a little bit) is wayyy more transparent than compression.
Another strategy is a clipper into tape saturation- although tape to my ears is also pretty dramatic in its effect
Perhaps a dynamic eq or MB comp is the way to go here, for the 3-5k attack on the pokey toms. We will see!
Regardless, its all very fun stuff
Takeaway: for a better rock mix, start shooting sloppy drummers with a traditional bow. No? Maybe, I've got things mixed up a bit... just maybe ;)
Cringy jokes aside, great tips!
Enjoy your weekend!
i'm struggling to get that stylized over compressed sound heard on dua lipa records. would love a breakdown of that.
Super tips!!! Very helpful. Not so much the idea of humane killing
You're a genius
I don’t know about that, but I’m glad you dug it!
Cool content! Thanks! (Ouuzzz🙏)
I like how you change your shirt in the middle of a comment😂
I think the loudest Cymbals in rock are Alex VanHalens, when they kick in it's like the jet engine ignited.
He’s a wizard 🧙♀️
Haha, I do what I can!
-Justin
In my early days of interning at a popular Boston recording studio, one of my favorite engineers laid down this gem of an observation:
"Recording engineers equate their kick drum sound to the size of their d*ck. 'Look how big and fat this thing sounds!' ."
Who are your favorite rock mixers Justin?
Please someone, recommend some "great rock mixes" for me to study. I'm an old rock lover, grew up on Beatles and Stones and Motown, grew from there to enjoy Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, and 1970's Genesis. You can see my references are sonically outdated. Name some more contemporary "great rock mixes" for me to study that have the musical versatility, instrumentation, and musicality of songs like the best of the Beatles, Steely Dan and Genesis... (you know, with occasional strings, horns, synths, various keyboards and sound FX)... Thank you in advance...
But also agree with the other 90%
Glad to hear there is some useful stuff in there for you! Thanks for the comments Samuel.
Justin
green day has huge guitars drums & bass
I totally agree on those Zeppelin mixes. Being a guitar fan, I always wanted to hear those guitar pulled up in front of the drums.
I'm sure there are 1000s of examples of big drums/big guitars. The first one that popped in my head was Bob Clearmountain's mix on The Stones' "Slave". It must work though because the drums are pretty straight forward without a bunch of cymbal work and the guitar is a very percussive lead line.
" ...should sound like?" Music fundamentalism, straight up.
Right away, the 1st point is a really odd one. Why would every mixer want their rock mix sound like Ac/Dc, or some other classic rock mix? You want to be a copy of Mutt Lange, or any other known mixer? Thinking like that, is just lazy to me.
Maybe you have to break rules, and "kill your idol", to advance sonically. I have influences as a musician especially, but if i were playing with them, i would show them what i would do with their influence. Im not going to just play with their exact licks, sound, attitude etc.
I would do what the hell i want to do, and my hero can just watch it happen, just like the audience. Who gives a crap.
What the hell happened to rock n roll attitude anyway? Everyone is just kissing everyone else's ass. Audio industry always has this certain kind of laziness in it, and it disgusts me.
I love Ac/Dc's Back in Black. But at the same time, fuck Ac/Dc's Back in Black.
That album matters, but it doesn't really matter. Dig it?
I would only EVER purposely mix in some pre-existing style, A, if the band really demanded it, and B, if i were making a mix or an album , about the time when rock sounded a certain way in my youth.
Make your own sound, that is the whole point of life itself! Have your mentors, fine, but find your own way of doing things.
Influence is one thing, copying is something else.
You killed rock n roll, not me.
I get where you are coming from. So much so, that this comment is funny to me because I feel like I spent almost half the episode talking about all the many exceptions to the general "rules" (or at least "norms") of rock production!
I'm all for breaking unwritten rules and circumventing norms with intentionality and taste.
I just think that in order to do that really well, you should know what they are first!
Hope that makes sense,
Justin
PS: My best guess based on the comment is that you didn't listen to the episode yet... Because I think you'd have a very different comment if you did! :-) Check it out, and I think you might like it!! (I also never use AC/DC as an example.)
Devil horns or spider-man? lol
Thanks for the video, i do think you drag out your points too long.
You make what is a simple point and then basically repeat it for 3 mins. I found myself skipping rhe waffle.
Lolololol ... You must be a guitarist before a well rounded producer to promote this kind of advice. I will agree that get awesome guitar sounds are crucial to a great rock record. But a rock record with amazing sounding drums and meg guitars... Still an awesome record. A rock record with huge guitars and tiny drums is 100% considered unprofessional
Nope, I mostly play bass and drums :-)
And no one ever said anything about wanting “tiny” drums! But that is not the issue on the majority of beginners’ and intermediates’ rock mixes.
Hands down, the number 1 amateur mistake on rock records that I encounter is not tiny drums, but tiny, tinny guitars.
I can say this after having mastered countless records in he genre and noticing the prevailing trends, and what separates the more successful projects from the less successful ones.
Of course you want drums to sound big. But if you make them sound big at the expense of guitars sounding big, you are going to have a bad time.
Ultimately, it’s all about finding the right balance for the song. But in most cases, guitars on most rock records want to be bigger than kicks and toms and cymbals most of the time. If your toms and your hi hats are overshadowing your guitar parts, it’s probably not going to work out very well.
There are exceptions where drums want to take a leading role over guitars, but as noted in the episode, they are more the 20% not the 80%.
Hope that helps,
-Justin
Well, he's definitely not a real metal head lol
I don’t think rock and metal are the same thing :-)
That said, I work on plenty of metal too.
The tradeoff between guitar power and drum power still exists, though different sub genres handle it differently.
Many of the principles here still apply, though depending on sub genre, can differ slightly.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop sorry I was just teasing. I assumed you were wanting the horns there.. maybe you meant the sign for love?
You lost me with bow and the ethical bullshit...
Considering the degree to which an animal suffers in a hunt is “bullshit”?
How so?
I guess you don’t know many hunters?
-Justin
@@SonicScoop There is no ethics in hunting; they´re just cowards and bullies.
I take it you haven’t met many hunters?
Not my experience with them at all, as a group.
I’m sure there are some sucky ones out there, but all the ones I know personally have incredible respect for animals and are generally what you would consider conservationists.
To hunt-particularly with a traditional bow at ranges often we’ll below 20 feet-requires an insane level of respect for the animal. Otherwise, you are simply never getting that close to them.
That said, I’m certain there are hunters that give hunters a bad name, just as with any pursuit.
-Justin
Hey Justin, thank you so much for this video. Just what I needed as I’m currently mixing a Country Rock track. I’ve gone through Mixing Breakthroughs and I’m another to add to your positive testimony list. As guaranteed, has been a breakthrough in my mixing and I’m finally getting confident enough in my own mixes to finish them so I can send them over to you for mastering… but this video has been one of the most helpful conceptually for me of any you’ve put out… and I’ve watched just about every YT video you’ve released. Thanks again, you’re one of the best content creators in audio around!