yea im actually worried that tww s1 dungeons are gonna be so punishing and spikey to me as someone who picked up healer role just 4 months ago. Im totally fine for occasionally have to focus on tank or focus on other 4 ppl but not in healing check scenarios (like Dxm mentioned halls 3rd boss etc) where i cant spare a gcd to heal tank.
Appreciate these takes. I’m a midcore player and this was going to be my “learn to tank” expansion. The pack ability bloat started to wear on me by season 3 of Dragonflight after cutting my teeth with healing. I’m worried that this season is going to be brutal on a relatively new tank.
Yea make healers do more damage so to be even more stressful, you will need to do dmg so you could time the key and heal the 3 useless dps's that step in every avoid mechanic, and in the end of the key GJ healer for ruining our key with your poor damage done!
Maybe the issue is less that tanks are tanky and that when you kick a mob, he immediately starts casting the same spell or a second spell school. Mobs ignore threat and will target random person to spike them with a bolt spell. Mob can’t see the person he targeted cause they’re line of sighting, no problem start casting at that one dps who isn’t LOSing. They need to add more mobs do aoe damage than singular bolts. Have some aura mobs that tick damage and are the focus target in groups. Just some suggestions.
I am very worried about M+ in tww after my testing on lock and bdk. Blizz has really missed the mark on M+. The main issue to me is dungeon design and and just the mechanic vomit going on. The tank nerf was very puzzling to me as i feel TWw has taken everything wrong with DF M+ and exaggerated it even more. Nothing has really been done to keys on beta and the first big change is the tank nerf and both the blaring issue that has been burst damage and dungeon design. After the changes I can say tanks do take more damage but nothing about group damage taken or dungeon design has changed. This has me so worried about season 1
@@amartian2 I have been playing beta so yeah lmao. The affix changes are not great. When I say nothing has changed I mean the bursty damage profile that was an issue all df, what hasn’t changed is the fact Aug meta it’s likely worse in tww after tank changes. Raid buff continues to be meta defining like arcane int, fort, motw. Blizz makes changes that fail to address the issue in M+
And that comment is EXACLY the reason why classic players shouldnt be allowed to speak xD The fuck is aggro management, you either have it, or you dont, if you dont on single mob ---> taunt if you dont on entire pack ---> HS, you are too undergeared or too unskilled to play
I know you said you didn't want to do too many more of these conversation videos because that's "not what were here for" but honestly I loved hearing your perspective on things. There's not a ton of healer perspectives out there. Just my 2 cents, keep up the great work!
I think the root cause of this issue is healing by damaging abilities that started around BFA with hpal and corruption, then homogenized to others, then trivialized healing checks, then evolved to just bring a dps that can do 50-70% more damage. I think constant damage and triage healing should be more frequent and involving, currently these GCDs are filled with judgments and spinning to squeeze every sec of the key. If you only need healers to heal a scripted spells and certain mechanics that can be immuned, off-healed or carried by Aug, then just don't bring them, which is insane TBH, i hope these tanks changes makes healers more valuable and involved.
Based on what I saw happen with Shadow Priest in DF. I'm thinking remove dispels from DPS, make them healer only. A lot of people would cry over this, but who cares honestly. Then revert dispels back to how they are in Cata. One dispel takes away the entire stack of whatever it is, no cooldown, but high mana cost. Then delete Aug from the game. Might as well make Bleed cures Healer only as well. They've homogenized in the wrong ways. In giving every role access to every type of utility, you've marginalized healers. Back in the day barely anyone was even playing Shadow, they've overloaded them to entice people to play them. Also way back in the day it was the healer's job to dispel, ain't no DPS spending a single GCD on a dispel unless it's a raid wipe mechanic. I would give all the healers a knockup also, like R Sham has. There is no reason to gate knocks anymore since they made the mobs chain cast after them.
If healers could output enough healing to heal a tank and their massive health pools, then healing dps and their smaller health pools would be trivial. Maybe tanks need similar health pools to dps, and just take much less damage, even less than they do today, if this is what Blizzard envisions for healers to heal tanks
Kinda disagree that healer need to do damage to be useful in M+ nor it would be the solution. We pick healer because we want to HEAL stuff NOT DPS. It's blizzard problem to create the environment for us to heal in each situation. Give healer DPS ability - the group will blame you when there's not enough DPS to kill boss. As of right now, healer is stressed enough that we can't die in M+ or group wipe unless there's Brez which not every group have it. IMO, The problem (1 Tank + 4 DPS) can be fix by Nerf Tank and DPS Self heal and defensive for them to not survive by themselves. I think they (Dev) are going to the right direction. Tank just scream because they need to rely on healer now (which is correct). That's why we join the group for.
I returned to the game after 13 years away, and I have yet to find a reason to like M+. There's basically no in-game explanation of the system. If you try to learn the dungeons by (gasp) playing them, all you get is verbal abuse. That's not how I want to spend my precious gaming time, and I shouldn't have to. It might not be the "growing problem with Mythic+" that you mean in the title of this video, but I do call it an underlying problem. I'm actually on the optimistic side about what TWW might bring, because I like what I've read (or think I remember reading) about them removing timers from lower-level keystones. I feel like that change might alleviate a big cause for the verbal abuse in learning runs.
yeah blizzard could go a long way with tutorials and explaining stuff. I'm worried abt the tank changes because tanks will probably die a lot more and that means more unnecessary healer flame :[
i talked with a guildy about this earlier today. my thoughts: currently in m+ i feel like the healer is the least valuable. tanks are nearly immortal. if we are nerfing tanks as well as reducing damage taken by the party as a whole, it should increase the value of healers especially if you increase healer damage out put (this needs to happen imo). the last 2 seasons have felt like most healers are about the same regardless of class/spec and what i mean by that is as long as they heal the party somewhat, keys still get timed in the mid level range. timing a 25-28 in s3 with 20-30 deaths just felt cringe and it is hard to tell the difference between a good healer and a great healer because its pretty hard to heal a one shot and when it comes to timing keys, there isnt much difference between a healer doing 100kdps vs a healer doing 120k dps...nobody cares about healer damage because healer damage is pretty irrelevant until very high keys and even then most of us arent doing keys high enough where healer damage matters. my point is that it is becoming harder and harder to make a larger impact as a healer in keys. i dont know if nerfing tanks will fix this issue, however at the very LEAST, it should add more value to healers. but the spec swapping and going boomie needs to end. thats like having 6 different sets of gear for legion keys. no thanks. if i wanted to play a dps role, id play a dps role.
Even though I'm a healer I think the tank nerf is what going to define the success or failure of TWW launch. Unfortunately, I think it will a failure because it will change not only the gameplay of tanks but everyone's. I'm afraid we will see a lot of kiting and spam healing on the tank and, on top of that, all the mobs will be messy and scattered due to kiting, therefore, frustrating dps too. I main heals but I'm very concern about those tank nerfs and how it will affect everyone's gameplay. Trying to fix/tune something by taking power from the players is insane to me.
An ok video. I think you're reading to much into this and it's coming across as doom and gloom. Tanks that I've spoken with beta testing m+ since the nerfs don't really see much of a difference, and this is before dungeon tuning.
I'm very salty after these tank changes I don't want 2 play my role 2 near perfection only 2 die because some pug heal is unable 2 press his buttons. My BDK fells like it get stabbed in the back every time i prss DS
NOoo If a healer has nothing to do - the grp is not pulling big enough - or your in a too low key. Just do higher Keys This is a You not a blizz Problem Also you are playing with addons. You cheat at a game and then complain its too easy. Redicules! How about uninstalling addons? Before asking blizz to rebalance the Game for 3 Mio people. Or just reroll to Dps
I feel like tanks should tank with little dps and healers should heal with little dps and 3 dps should dps Then dungeons should be built around that The game would be way better off Healers and tanks should have a solo build that they can’t effectively run in group content when they want to solo and have more damage output for those activities Table and healers are doing way to much damage in group content and over time more and more content was built around that And to fix would require dungeon design rethinking
If you want healers to be relevant you have to take away the self healing/defensive's so that tanks can't solo dungeons. The idea that tanks don't need a healer is literally a having cake and eating it too situation. Healers heal, if everyone else heals then you don't need a healer... see how that works?
youre probably right, I just want to think there's a better way that doesn't punish the player. Everything just starts to turn into 1shots in the higher keys, so there's nothing a healer can realistically help with in a lot of situations anyway.
Blood dk some level dh. I aruge self are ok if damage compared are sh blood dk be weakest tank but make for it in self healing where let's warrior 5 mins blood dk might take double or triple that but pay back is self healing. Think going some do shit damage self healing tanks tank less self healing has less def should offsive tanks split tank defense tank or more offsive tank
Stop saying people are doing content without a healer. That's simply not true. They are doing a first pull with all CDs and lust without a healer, then the healer respecs to heal. That's a huge difference. Anyone with a half-decent group sees how that's a good idea, most of us are just not doing high enough keys that it matters.
ye i'm not saying that whole keys are being timed without a healer, im mainly just talking abt the idea that for half of a key sometimes, there just isn't a healer because they're respecced to dps
yea im actually worried that tww s1 dungeons are gonna be so punishing and spikey to me as someone who picked up healer role just 4 months ago. Im totally fine for occasionally have to focus on tank or focus on other 4 ppl but not in healing check scenarios (like Dxm mentioned halls 3rd boss etc) where i cant spare a gcd to heal tank.
Appreciate these takes. I’m a midcore player and this was going to be my “learn to tank” expansion. The pack ability bloat started to wear on me by season 3 of Dragonflight after cutting my teeth with healing. I’m worried that this season is going to be brutal on a relatively new tank.
Yea make healers do more damage so to be even more stressful, you will need to do dmg so you could time the key and heal the 3 useless dps's that step in every avoid mechanic, and in the end of the key GJ healer for ruining our key with your poor damage done!
Facts.
thanks man for saving my pet anteater from his deathly gluten allergy
Maybe the issue is less that tanks are tanky and that when you kick a mob, he immediately starts casting the same spell or a second spell school. Mobs ignore threat and will target random person to spike them with a bolt spell. Mob can’t see the person he targeted cause they’re line of sighting, no problem start casting at that one dps who isn’t LOSing. They need to add more mobs do aoe damage than singular bolts. Have some aura mobs that tick damage and are the focus target in groups. Just some suggestions.
I am very worried about M+ in tww after my testing on lock and bdk. Blizz has really missed the mark on M+. The main issue to me is dungeon design and and just the mechanic vomit going on. The tank nerf was very puzzling to me as i feel TWw has taken everything wrong with DF M+ and exaggerated it even more. Nothing has really been done to keys on beta and the first big change is the tank nerf and both the blaring issue that has been burst damage and dungeon design. After the changes I can say tanks do take more damage but nothing about group damage taken or dungeon design has changed. This has me so worried about season 1
Did you miss the affix changes or do I not understand by what you mean and you say "nothing has been done about mythic+"‽
@@amartian2 I have been playing beta so yeah lmao. The affix changes are not great. When I say nothing has changed I mean the bursty damage profile that was an issue all df, what hasn’t changed is the fact Aug meta it’s likely worse in tww after tank changes. Raid buff continues to be meta defining like arcane int, fort, motw. Blizz makes changes that fail to address the issue in M+
Healer should not deal dmg AT all. but manage mana, CC, buffs,...
Tank should be more about aggro management and big spike dmg dissipation
Unless you remove people's ability to do quests/world content in healer specs, healers will always have to damage. Your solution isn't a solution.
And that comment is EXACLY the reason why classic players shouldnt be allowed to speak xD The fuck is aggro management, you either have it, or you dont, if you dont on single mob ---> taunt if you dont on entire pack ---> HS, you are too undergeared or too unskilled to play
I know you said you didn't want to do too many more of these conversation videos because that's "not what were here for" but honestly I loved hearing your perspective on things. There's not a ton of healer perspectives out there. Just my 2 cents, keep up the great work!
I think the root cause of this issue is healing by damaging abilities that started around BFA with hpal and corruption, then homogenized to others, then trivialized healing checks, then evolved to just bring a dps that can do 50-70% more damage. I think constant damage and triage healing should be more frequent and involving, currently these GCDs are filled with judgments and spinning to squeeze every sec of the key.
If you only need healers to heal a scripted spells and certain mechanics that can be immuned, off-healed or carried by Aug, then just don't bring them, which is insane TBH, i hope these tanks changes makes healers more valuable and involved.
Based on what I saw happen with Shadow Priest in DF. I'm thinking remove dispels from DPS, make them healer only. A lot of people would cry over this, but who cares honestly. Then revert dispels back to how they are in Cata. One dispel takes away the entire stack of whatever it is, no cooldown, but high mana cost.
Then delete Aug from the game. Might as well make Bleed cures Healer only as well. They've homogenized in the wrong ways. In giving every role access to every type of utility, you've marginalized healers. Back in the day barely anyone was even playing Shadow, they've overloaded them to entice people to play them. Also way back in the day it was the healer's job to dispel, ain't no DPS spending a single GCD on a dispel unless it's a raid wipe mechanic.
I would give all the healers a knockup also, like R Sham has. There is no reason to gate knocks anymore since they made the mobs chain cast after them.
If healers could output enough healing to heal a tank and their massive health pools, then healing dps and their smaller health pools would be trivial. Maybe tanks need similar health pools to dps, and just take much less damage, even less than they do today, if this is what Blizzard envisions for healers to heal tanks
Kinda disagree that healer need to do damage to be useful in M+ nor it would be the solution. We pick healer because we want to HEAL stuff NOT DPS. It's blizzard problem to create the environment for us to heal in each situation. Give healer DPS ability - the group will blame you when there's not enough DPS to kill boss. As of right now, healer is stressed enough that we can't die in M+ or group wipe unless there's Brez which not every group have it.
IMO, The problem (1 Tank + 4 DPS) can be fix by Nerf Tank and DPS Self heal and defensive for them to not survive by themselves. I think they (Dev) are going to the right direction. Tank just scream because they need to rely on healer now (which is correct). That's why we join the group for.
I returned to the game after 13 years away, and I have yet to find a reason to like M+. There's basically no in-game explanation of the system. If you try to learn the dungeons by (gasp) playing them, all you get is verbal abuse. That's not how I want to spend my precious gaming time, and I shouldn't have to. It might not be the "growing problem with Mythic+" that you mean in the title of this video, but I do call it an underlying problem.
I'm actually on the optimistic side about what TWW might bring, because I like what I've read (or think I remember reading) about them removing timers from lower-level keystones. I feel like that change might alleviate a big cause for the verbal abuse in learning runs.
yeah blizzard could go a long way with tutorials and explaining stuff. I'm worried abt the tank changes because tanks will probably die a lot more and that means more unnecessary healer flame :[
i talked with a guildy about this earlier today. my thoughts:
currently in m+ i feel like the healer is the least valuable. tanks are nearly immortal. if we are nerfing tanks as well as reducing damage taken by the party as a whole, it should increase the value of healers especially if you increase healer damage out put (this needs to happen imo). the last 2 seasons have felt like most healers are about the same regardless of class/spec and what i mean by that is as long as they heal the party somewhat, keys still get timed in the mid level range. timing a 25-28 in s3 with 20-30 deaths just felt cringe and it is hard to tell the difference between a good healer and a great healer because its pretty hard to heal a one shot and when it comes to timing keys, there isnt much difference between a healer doing 100kdps vs a healer doing 120k dps...nobody cares about healer damage because healer damage is pretty irrelevant until very high keys and even then most of us arent doing keys high enough where healer damage matters.
my point is that it is becoming harder and harder to make a larger impact as a healer in keys.
i dont know if nerfing tanks will fix this issue, however at the very LEAST, it should add more value to healers. but the spec swapping and going boomie needs to end. thats like having 6 different sets of gear for legion keys. no thanks. if i wanted to play a dps role, id play a dps role.
It would be great that blizz lock your spec when you start the dungeon !!!!
They do, the trouble is leaving the dungeon. Changing spec and re entering. Not sure why they haven’t done anything about that.
@@nofoxgiven6561beacuse it would be nightmare to code, and leaving dung to change spec is so INSANELY niche play there is no point
I like rdruid and I like m+... I just want them to be good in tww
wasn't it better in legion where healers did do a decent of dmg?
Even though I'm a healer I think the tank nerf is what going to define the success or failure of TWW launch. Unfortunately, I think it will a failure because it will change not only the gameplay of tanks but everyone's. I'm afraid we will see a lot of kiting and spam healing on the tank and, on top of that, all the mobs will be messy and scattered due to kiting, therefore, frustrating dps too. I main heals but I'm very concern about those tank nerfs and how it will affect everyone's gameplay. Trying to fix/tune something by taking power from the players is insane to me.
its not insane to me, just not good. there has to be a better way. that doesnt punish tanks AND healers.
dude you said it!
heal no i want to heal as a healer not dps
Healers dont want to do dps
We want to heal
Lol
Lmao even
Sounds like you just need to play disc
unfortunately even disc damage is irrelevant and simple
An ok video. I think you're reading to much into this and it's coming across as doom and gloom. Tanks that I've spoken with beta testing m+ since the nerfs don't really see much of a difference, and this is before dungeon tuning.
I probably am but I just dont wanna spec swap anymore 😭
@@dxmdru You shouldn't have too. The point of these changes to tanks is for healers to heal, not be backup dps. Dps should be doing their job too.
I'm very salty after these tank changes I don't want 2 play my role 2 near perfection only 2 die because some pug heal is unable 2 press his buttons. My BDK fells like it get stabbed in the back every time i prss DS
!dxm
Can you please block me?
i listened to about half of it and nothing useful was said, jakbcasting u aint brudda
that's okay im not trying to be him
Bad take, dont give healers dps
Don’t be surprised healers not playing cus healer role has been consistently becoming less fun
get ready to learn boomkin buddy
i have :[
one of the worst gamplay of the game
NOoo
If a healer has nothing to do
- the grp is not pulling big enough
- or your in a too low key.
Just do higher Keys
This is a You not a blizz Problem
Also you are playing with addons.
You cheat at a game and then complain its too easy. Redicules!
How about uninstalling addons?
Before asking blizz to rebalance the Game for 3 Mio people.
Or just reroll to Dps
i gotta be honest man i think im doing the highest keys any1 can
Just buff healer damage, it is the easiest solution... trying to get creative about this is only gonna hurt the m+ space.
So remove healers. Buff Aug. Make all healers like aug in their own way.
Run a Key with 2 Augs. Youll see.
This comment gave me memories of playing buff/debuff Devoted Cleric in the early days of Neverwinter MMO when it was actually good
I feel like tanks should tank with little dps and healers should heal with little dps and 3 dps should dps
Then dungeons should be built around that
The game would be way better off
Healers and tanks should have a solo build that they can’t effectively run in group content when they want to solo and have more damage output for those activities
Table and healers are doing way to much damage in group content and over time more and more content was built around that
And to fix would require dungeon design rethinking
If you want healers to be relevant you have to take away the self healing/defensive's so that tanks can't solo dungeons. The idea that tanks don't need a healer is literally a having cake and eating it too situation. Healers heal, if everyone else heals then you don't need a healer... see how that works?
youre probably right, I just want to think there's a better way that doesn't punish the player. Everything just starts to turn into 1shots in the higher keys, so there's nothing a healer can realistically help with in a lot of situations anyway.
Blood dk some level dh. I aruge self are ok if damage compared are sh blood dk be weakest tank but make for it in self healing where let's warrior 5 mins blood dk might take double or triple that but pay back is self healing. Think going some do shit damage self healing tanks tank less self healing has less def should offsive tanks split tank defense tank or more offsive tank
Stop saying people are doing content without a healer. That's simply not true. They are doing a first pull with all CDs and lust without a healer, then the healer respecs to heal. That's a huge difference. Anyone with a half-decent group sees how that's a good idea, most of us are just not doing high enough keys that it matters.
But isn't doing a big pull lusting and spending all cds without a healer doing content without a healer?
ye i'm not saying that whole keys are being timed without a healer, im mainly just talking abt the idea that for half of a key sometimes, there just isn't a healer because they're respecced to dps
The game should be properly designed such that it's never correct to do difficult content without an entire third of the roles in the game present.