Catholic vs. Atheist - 2018-12-19 - Graham Oppy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- A recent guest, Philo Theism, recommended that I interview Graham Oppy, so I reached out by email. I was delighted that he was willing to be my guest. We discussed his worldview and locked horns over the issue of free-will. It was a fun chat.
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The hosts assumptions about what naturalism entails is adorable
If it's so adorable, then it should be easy to refute during a quick conversation on my podcast. Email me to set up the date and time: cvs.podcast@gmail.com
I am available evenings (EST) and weekends because I work full-time, and the podcast is a hobby. Looking forward to showing you the error of your ways. LOL
calendly.com/cvs-podcast
Always enjoy listening to Oppy.
🐟 02. A BRIEF EXPLANATION FOR “LIFE”:
Everything, both perceptible and imperceptible - that is, any gross or subtle object within the material universe which can ever be perceived with the senses, plus the subject (the observer of all phenomena) - is what most persons actually refer to when they use the term “GOD”.
The Ultimate Reality is Impersonal Absolute NOTHINGNESS (otherwise called “The Tao”, “The Great Spirit”, “Brahman”, “Pure Consciousness”, “Eternal Awareness”, “Independent Existence”, “The Ground of All Being”, “The Undifferentiated Substratum of Reality”, “The Unified Field”, et cetera).
Because Absolute Nothingness is infinite potentiality, is actualizes as Absolutely EVERYTHING, in the form of temporary, cyclical universes.
Just as a knife cannot cut itself, nor the mind comprehend itself, nor the eyes see themselves, The Absolute cannot know Itself (or at least objectively EXPERIENCE Itself), and so, has manifested this phenomenal universe within Itself for the purpose of experiencing Itself, particularly through the lives of conscious beings, such as we humans. Therefore, this world of duality is really just a play of consciousness within Consciousness.
Apparently, this phenomenal universe was “created” (within Consciousness) with the primal act (the so-called “Big Bang”), and from that first deed, every action that has ever occurred has been a direct or indirect result of it.
Just as every particle of matter in the universe was once contained in the inchoate singularity, Infinite Consciousness was NECESSARILY present at the beginning of the universe, and is in no way an epiphenomenon of a neural network.
“Sarvam khalvidam brahma” (‘all this is indeed Brahman’) - there is NAUGHT but Eternal Being, Conscious Awareness, Causeless Peace - and you are that!
This is more succinctly expressed as the mathematical equation:
E=A͚͚ (Everything is Infinite Awareness).
HUMANS are essentially this Eternal-Conscious-Peace, acting through a biological organism comprised of the eight rudimentary elements - pseudo-ego, intellect, mind, solids, liquids, gases, heat, and ether (three-dimensional space).
Everything which can be presently perceived, both tangible and immaterial, including we human beings, is a consequence of that primary manifestation. That is the most accurate and logical explanation for “karma” - everything was preordained from the initial spark, and every action since has unfolded as it was predestined in ETERNITY. The notion of retributive (“tit for tat”) karma is just that - an unverified notion.
Whatever state in which we currently find ourselves, is the result of two factors - our genetic make-up at conception and our present-life conditioning (which may include mutating genetic code). Every choice ever made by every human (and non-human animal) was determined by those two factors ALONE. Therefore, free-will is purely illusory, despite what most believe.
Because we are temporarily residing within this dualistic universe, we experience both pleasure and pain.
Suffering and pain are NOT synonymous.
Suffering is due to a false sense of personal doership - the belief that one is a separate, independent author of one’s thoughts, emotions, and deeds.
There are five MANIFESTATIONS of suffering, all of which are psychological in nature:
1. Guilt
2. Blame
3. Pride
4. Anxiety
5. Regrets about the past and expectations for the future
These types of suffering are the result of improperly understanding what was explained above - that life is a series of happenings and NOT caused by the individual living beings. No living creature, including Homo sapiens, has personal free-will. There is only the Universal, Divine Will at play, acting through every body, to which William Shakespeare famously alluded when he scribed “All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.”
The human organism is simply a biological machine, comprised of the five gross material elements and the three subtle material elements, mentioned above.
The ANTIDOTE to all mental anguish is to discern the distinction between suffering and pain, then achieving complete relief from that miserable state of existence by abiding in the primordial sense of being (the unqualified “I am”, which is one’s core identity).
Every person, from time immemorial, has been either deliberately or unknowingly seeking such causeless peace. Practicing one of the four systems of religion (yoga) is the most common method of attaining such peace of mind. DHARMA (frameworks of authentic religion) is not guaranteed to bring-about that peace, but even so, it is beneficial for individuals, since it establishes a societal structure which enables one to elevate oneself beyond the mundane, animalistic platform (i. e. the base pursuits of eating, sleeping and mating).
So, now that you understand life, and the reason why we are suffering here in this (supposedly) material universe, you are now able to be liberated from all mental suffering, RIGHT?
WRONG! It is imperative to find an authentic spiritual master to assist you to come to the above realization, by slowly undoing your past conditioning. Just as you have been conditioned over an entire lifetime to think one way, you need to be re-conditioned to think another way (in alignment with your essential identity as The All).
Even if you follow a competent teacher, you may still not come to a full understanding of life, but if you are sincere, humble and dedicated, you will definitely find more peace in your daily life (all of which was DESTINED to occur, of course).
Furthermore, if it was ordained, you may be fortunate enough to accept discipline from a truly enlightened MASTER, and subsequently realize the aforementioned fundamental concepts, by practicing at least one of the four systems of yoga (religion) described in this Holy Scripture, “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”. Best wishes for your unique, personal journey towards unalloyed peace and happiness!
“You are this universe and you are creating it at every moment because, you see, it starts now.
It didn’t begin in the past. There is no past.”
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“A wise Rabbi once said 'If I am I because you are you, and you are you because I am I, then I am not I, and you are not you'.
In other words, we are not separate.”
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"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way".
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“The meaning of life is life itself.”
Professor Dr. Alan Wilson Watts,
British-American Philosopher.
(06/01/1915 - 16/11/1973).
“What you seek is seeking you.”
*************
“Don’t you know yet?
It is your light that lights the worlds.”
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“Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion.”
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“We are one. Everything in the universe is within you. Ask all from yourself.”
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“The lamps are different, but the light is the same.”
Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī,
Persian Sunni Muslim poet, jurist, Islamic scholar, theologian, and Sufi mystic.
(30/09/1207 - 17/12/1273).
Outstanding interview man. Keep it up! 👍🏾
Thank you. Let me know if you'd like to come on my live stream to share your faith-journey and talk about religion and/or philosophy. I'm always looking for guests: CVS.Podcast@gmail.com God bless.
Catholic vs. Definitely man! Thanks for the invitation!
Catholic vs.
There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.🤓
It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
*The World Teacher - Jagadguru Svāmī Vegānanda* Can’t tell if you’re serious or not. That’s a joke right?
88fingerspro
🐟 07. GOD (OR NOT):
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the slightest shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity, for the notion of an omnipresent PERSON is both profoundly illogical and extremely incongruous, to put it mildly.
The English word “person” literally means “for sound”, originating from the Latin/Greek “persona/prósōpa”, referring to the masks worn by actors in ancient European theatrical plays, which featured a mouth hole to enable the actors to speak through. Theists, by definition, believe that there is a Supreme Deity which incorporates anthropomorphic characteristics such as corporeal form (even if that form is a “spiritual” body, whatever that may connote), with a face (hence the term “person”), and certain personality traits such as unique preferences and aversions. Simple logic dictates that the Ultimate Reality transcends all concepts, including personality and even impersonality. However, only an excruciatingly minute number of humans have ever grasped this complete understanding and realization.
There are at least FOUR reasons why many persons are convinced of the existence of a Supreme Personal God:
1. Because it is natural for any sensible person to believe that humans may not be the pinnacle of existence, and that there must be a higher power or ultimate creative force (an intelligent designer). However, because they cannot conceive of this designer being non-personal, they automatically suspect it must be a man (God) or a woman (The Goddess) with personal attributes. One who is truly awakened and/or enlightened understands that the Universal Self is the creator of all experiences and that he IS that (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit).
2. Because they have experienced some kind of mystical phenomenon or miracle, which they mistakenly attribute to “God's grace”, but which can be more logically explicated by another means. As explained, all such phenomena are produced by the TRUE Self of all selves (“Paramātman”, in Sanskrit). I, the author of this Holy Scripture, have personally experienced very powerful, miraculous, mystical phenomena, which I formerly ascribed to the personal conception of God (since I was a Theist), but now know to be caused, ultimately, by the Real Self.
3. Because they may have witnessed the deeds or read the words of an individual who seems to be a perfect person - in other words an incarnation of the Divine Principle (“Avatāra”, in Sanskrit). To be sure, such persons do exist, but that does not necessarily prove that the Supreme Truth is PERSONAL. An Avatar is a man who was born fully enlightened, with all noble qualities, but not necessarily perfect in every possible way. For example, very few (if any) of the recognized Avatars in human history taught or practiced veganism.
4. Because they have been CONDITIONED by their family, society and/or religious organization over many years or decades. Unfortunately, we humans are very gullible. Due to low intelligence and lack of critical analytical skills, the typical person believes almost anything they read or hear from virtually any source. During a visit to one's local place of worship on any given weekend, one will notice a congregation of sheepish individuals nodding in agreement with practically every nonsensical, inane word spouted by their deluded so-called “priest”, imam, mullah, rabbi, guru, monk, or preacher. Even the current World Teacher, despite his genius intellect, was once a thoroughly-indoctrinated religious fundamentalist, before he awoke to a definitive understanding of life.
Having stated the above, the worship of the Personal Deity (“bhakti yoga”, in Sanskrit), is a legitimate spiritual path for the masses. However, the most ACCURATE understanding is monistic or non-dual (“advaita”, in Sanskrit). If one wishes to be even more pedantic, the ultimate understanding is beyond even the concept of nonduality, as the famous South Indian sage, Śri Ramana Maharishi, once so rightly proclaimed.
As an aside, it seems that virtually every religious organization, particularly those originating in Bhārata (India), claims to have been founded by an Avatar, but that’s simply wishful thinking on the part of their congregations. Only a great sage or World Teacher can POSSIBLY recognize an enlightened being, what to speak of an Incarnation of the Divine. The typical spiritual aspirant, even one who may seem to be a highly-exalted practitioner, has very little idea of what constitutes actual holiness. Frankly speaking, many famous (infamous?) religious leaders were some of the most vile and contemptible characters in human history, particularly in this Epoch of Darkness (“Kali Yuga”, in Sanskrit).
“God is greater than God.”
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“Where there is Isness, there God is. Creation is the giving of isness from God. That is why God becomes where any creature expresses God.”
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“Theologians may quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language.”
*************
“There is something in the soul that is so akin to God that it is one with Him... It has nothing in common with anything created.”
*************
“The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God as if he stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge.”
*************
“The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.”
Eckhart von Hochheim O.P. (AKA Meister Eckhart) ,
German Roman Catholic Priest.
“God is merely one of man's concepts, a symbol used for pointing the way, to the Ultimate Reality, which has been mistaken for the Reality itself.
The map has been mistaken for the actual territory.”
*************
“Worshippers may derive some sort of satisfaction or peace of mind, through worship of a concept such as God (created by themselves), but it is a futile process, from the viewpoint of experiencing one's true nature.”
Ramesh Balsekar,
Indian Spiritual Teacher.
One simple thing that could resolve the problem of justice regarding free will is change the justice system from retributive to a rehabilitational one.
Let's put the "penitence" back in "penitentiary".
@@cvs-podcast i dont see why not
mr catholic was totally debunked at 1:00:00 with the duplicator analogy. That laugh after the Oppy responde was just a throw of the white towel. Nice try.
Not at all. Rather, Naturalism and Atheism are totally debunked by the duplicator thought-experiment. If all you are is a series of configurations of matter-energy in space-time then death is reversible. There is literally nothing that anyone can say to counter this devastating and simple reality check. Only a willing blindness can prevent someone from seeing the folly of Atheism. God help us all.
@@cvs-podcast Assumptions, assumptions everywhere. So much certainty and so little knowledge, no wonder why you found pressups interesting.
@@amentirahonesta2394 You have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. If all you are is a series of configurations of matter-energy in space-time then death is reversible.
@@cvs-podcast No, my man, unfortunately you are wrong, let me show you your assumptions and where it fails. If by right technology you mean being able to go back in time where i was still alive, then yes, in principle death is reversible, but so it is anything, what makes your point meaningless. If by the right technology you mean some form of machine that could regroup all the particles and arrange in the exact same way, with the exact same relations between those particles in the second before i died, then you are grossely drunk with some strange static theory of mind and being, you are presuming that what one calls "myself" "is" something, like a determined thing that we could define it exhaustively by looking at all the parts and its relations. Most sofisticated metaphysics of mind and being characterize the being as constant becoming in a constant ininterrupt process that begins with the conception and ends with the death. Now, some things that will be necessarely totally different in the duplicate's - that comes out that machine - life: It has stopped being for a period of time, interrupt the process of constant becoming of an organism that is NOT separated from reality where it habits, rather is embbeded in this reality as a constante process of counter entropy and organization for constant becoming this undefined being whoms identity it's greater than the sum of its parts.
Now, the problem that you are alluding is not really about the identity of the being that would come out of the machine (in a totally different context and location where it was left interacting -as constant becoming in a constant relation in and within the world - with reality when its consciousness vanish from the death of its body), but that would probably be indistinguishable for someone who doesn't know what happened (either a stranger, a friend or the duplicate himself). Regarding to this one of two things may happen: Either someone or the duplicate knows that it was dead and brought to life in the same arrange of matter that i was made of, in which case it has now a totally perception of its own identity (that has been changed, as it is always and doesn't make much sense in the metaphysical simplistic sense of mecanicist defining of being you are using, as seen in last paragraph), affecting the way it interacts with reality and the beliefs and ways of responding to new experience; or it doesn't know, its said to him (or to some friend, stranger) that he just suffered some major damage in the brain, was in coma and then got out, in which case it has now only the problem of indiscernibility, it's not a matter of it's identity being different, it most certainly is, saying it's not is confusing an epistemic problem with an ontology one.
@@amentirahonesta2394 TL;DR Say uncle. Come back to the faith of your Mother while you still have time. Tick tock.
It would have been interesting to hear Oppy being challenged.
I notice Oppy says when speaking about the jewelry theif. "He's just acting on his beliefs the way that we all do". Seems to vindicate classical morality.
Good catch. Is that a Welsh accent I hear from you?
English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh heritage.
Is your pharmacy still open right now? I need to pick up my medication
;P
Demonstrate the "supernatural"...waiting...waiting....
Every act of the free will is a clear demonstration of the supernatural. This is self-evident.
Requires a few assumptions but okay
@@reignorshine. No assumptions are necessary, actually. I have deductive certainty that my free will is supernatural and no assumptions are required. When I doubt everything that can be doubted I am left with one certain fact: I AM! From this solid foundation of certainty I can know that God exists and that I am not God by way of a reduction to absurdity: Either I'm God or God is God, so if God is not God then I am God. But I know that I am not God, and that God is God because if I am wrong then I am also not wrong, since if I am wrong when I say that I am not God then I am God and God cannot be wrong. Therefore I know that I am not wrong when I say that I am not God. Therefore I am not God. But if I am not God then God is God. Therefore God is God.
So we have deduced with certainty and without any assumptions the existence of the infinite God and, because I have proven that I am not God, the objective, well-ordered, and real (but finite) existence of the natural world that God created (including myself and other people).
From here we can use deductive reduction to absurdity technique to prove that the free will is grounded in the supernatural: If the free will is grounded exclusively in the natural world, then it is necessarily 100% determined by the well-ordered laws of nature. This is a contradiction, and so we conclude that the free will is grounded in the supernatural, which is what we set out to prove. And we proved it without making any assumptions.
Hahahahaha worst apologetic answer ever
@@cillianholland5478 If you don't like that approach, I have many other arguments. Here's another good one: The standard by which you judge me is eternal and objective, or it is not. If it is, then welcome to monotheism. If it is not, then your judgment is arbitrary and can be safely ignored as impotent and irrelevant.
Everything is nothing basically
Deserves more views
Thanks for listening.
Not sure how Oppy can be a moral realist, the atheist wants his cake and eat it to
Well said. I agree 100%.
@@cvs-podcast I came here because I just watched your conversaton with Matt on AE, talking to someone like Dillahunty is absolutely worthless, he will disagree with anything you say, just because he doesnt want it to be true. Its pretty obvious. There must be a first cause precisely because there cant be an infinite regress of causes. He is just the worst in my opinion. At least with Oppy you can get some decent intellectual conversation from a polite good guy.
@@ceceroxy2227 Agreed. Thanks. Please email me to come chat on a livestream some time soon: cvs.podcast@gmail.com
God bless. ♥
At the end of the interview, Oppy keeps saying the word "impossible". That God is impossible and that be in a (fake) heaven is impossible. What he means by that? It's a logical or metaphysical impossibility? I would love to hear him flesh out this!
Sadly it is impossible for Oppy to explain what he means.
Well because you seems to ignore his bit about existence proceed his essence. If the essential essence meaning or nature of a thing proceeds the existence of a thing, which is what you are attempting to (from what I can see) argue here, then sure this would be a great analogy. But Oppy, doesn't accept that as he obviously believe he gains his essence or what makes him "him" after existence. This is why he makes a point about the duplication being not him. Plus, for Oppy, death is the "end" of everything in Naturalism, so yes your analogy is logically impossible.
@@Sazi_de_Afrikan If naturalism is true then so is this syllogism:
(1) A human life is nothing more than a sequential series of very sophisticated and complex configurations of matter-energy in space-time.
(2) In principle it is possible for one of those configurations to be reproduced.
(3) Therefore it is possible, in principle, to reverse death for a human.
All we would need is the technological sophistication required to reproduce one of the configurations from that human's life (e.g., the zygote).
@@cvs-podcast your first premise is incorrect, as Oppy explained. Your mistake is the same as saying that in my worldview I am a mammal, therefore I am nothing more than an animal that was born from a womb and fed on my progenitor's breasts. Your second premise is also incorrect and Oppy spent some time trying to elucidate that with the duplicator analogy. Your conclusion is, therefore, a complete strawman.
Henrique Sousa: The naturalist cannot legitimately (logically or honestly) smuggle in Christian realities (e.g., meaning, freedom, reason, love, justice, etc.) because naturalism only admits of the natural.
This was awkward.
In first 20 min. the interviewer was calm and charmign, after that point he got defensive and felt the need to sprinkle the grace of god in every other sentences.
Everything is grace.
@@cvs-podcast
If you didn’t notice it wasn’t a complement per se, you were being kind of nasty actually.
Laughing at some of Oppy’s comments and sounding all a round like a fanatic.
@@andresdubon2608 I meet a lot of people like you in the comments, but they very rarely agree to come chat about faith and philosophy. Perhaps you are one of the few who has the courage to talk face-to-face on a livestream. If so, you can book a spot here:
calendly.com/cvs-podcast
@@cvs-podcast I don’t think you are understanding me. I’m indeed telling you I found you quite disrespectful and borderline childish. Why would I want to discuss with someone like you?
@@andresdubon2608 That's what I thought. Another timid keyboard warrior. Lame.
These are terrible arguments for morality from Oppy. He is just saying well this is how I believe we should live and makes me happy.
I'm glad some of us can see through the smoke-and-mirrors. God help us all.
No one cares what you or anyone else "believes" People can "believe" every manner of stupid making all "beliefs" equal. Your problem is your hang up with being an "ist" of one stripe or another.
Is that what you believe, Bob?
@@cvs-podcast I don't "believe" anything. "Belief" is the most delusional position one can take...ANYTHING can be "believed" and is! Do you "believe" in pixies and unicorns? Why not?
@@robertwhite1810 Belief means that you accept something is true without proof. So this means that every truth you accept is proven, right? LOL
@@cvs-podcast Which is absolutely delusional. I only accept things provisionally with degrees of certainty based upon evidence. That's what rational people do. Delusional people..the religious in particular....simply wish think, group think, don't think, can't think or choose not to think....ie "belief" People "believe" in the Loch Ness Monster, alien abduction, homeopathy, jesus, oden, zeus, demons, elvis still living, astrology, voodoo etc....all without and in spite of contrary evidence. This is why you are sick. You have a pathology that compels you to "believe" things and ancient books and dead lunatics and the pope. Who knows what ails you but you should seriously consider professional help. "The true horror of religion...that people by the billions can believe what only lunatics can believe on the own" Sam Harris
@@cvs-podcast You clearly don't know what "proof" means either. "Proof" is only applicable in mathematics, logic and by definition. We do not arrive at "truth" via proofs as there is no absolute "truth" outside of the 3 things mentioned above. Rational people...not you or yours....accept propositions to degrees of certainty based upon the strength of evidence but only provisionally and are open to new evidence that would change their outlook. Irrational people...like you and yours...cannot evaluate new information as you are wed to and imprisoned by the dogma of your vile and wicked cult of pedophiles and liars to children. You might as well profess to being a Nazi...don't forget your cults role in all of that while you're at it.