The Silver Coinage of Iran under its Early Muslim Governors, 651-705-Michael Bates
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.พ. 2021
- Money Talks
December 12, 2020
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Join ANS Fellow and Curator Emeritus Michael Bates for the final Money Talks of 2020. The coinage of Iran in the long second half of the seventh century, as currently presented, has all the structure of a swarm of bees. But by focusing on regular issues, with anomalous coins put aside, in the context of geography, of the Arab administrative hierarchy, of the sequence of governors and of the general history of the caliphate, it is easy to recognize twelve successive chronological phases. In each of these, the geographical distribution of mints and the names of officials on the coins illuminate, supplement, and correct the literary histories of later composition.
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Highly interesting presentation, Michael.
Excellent and very informative, though some more detail about the actual coin design would have been appreciated. Love the short "Only connect" musing - I totally agree!
Like One From Your Friend Because Always The Splendid Informations Antic Numismatic and Happy New Year With Family,Great History Coin Islamic
Thank you very much.
Montrose, Colorado Thank You.
Could you post the other talk which you were referring at 1:18:37?
Thank you for watching and sorry for the delay but I believe this is the talk Joe refers to...
th-cam.com/video/Yaw31pYanSY/w-d-xo.html
Interesting presentation and discussion. However I would like to suggest that the interested people to consult the work by the German numismatic Volker Popp on the Arab-Sasanian coins. There is a huge gap between what the coins say and the standard Islamic narrative about the conquest of Persia and collapse of the Sasanian empire. And people like Popp are trying to reconstruct the history based on coins and other archeological evidences. For example the fact Ali’s name doesn’t appear on any coin could be indicative that he wasn’t a real caliph as opposed to Muawiyah. Also Darabgard is hugely significant as far as Sasanians are concerned b/c it was a holly city and where they hail from, and the kings officially claimed their ascent to power by minting a coin there. And the reason that Muawiyah minted his coins there could be that he wanted to announce a continuation of Sasanians as well as calling himself the king of Eranshahr. The whole idea that an Arabian religious movement ie Islam chooses to continue minting Zoroastrian symbols after the conquest is quite hard to explain.
The problem is that such revisionist efforts completely ignore the ironclad evidence of Islamic sources, which renders these exercises in revisionism totally ahistorical and unscholarly. No other era of history is subjected to such shoddy treatment, then the manner in which early Islamic history is mutilated by revisionists.
@@samy7013 Unfortunately Volker Popp lost the best years which he and his associates worked in creating such a stuff. Totally nonsensical, not based on serious evidence but on misinterpreted facts - both numismatic and written historical.
Really intersting stuff. Can you attest that the 'year of the Hijra' has a separate, contempororneous reference other than on coins? ie.e Stone inscriptions, reliably dated texts or other indelible proofs?
Hi,
I am interested to see how you have considered the dating techniques on coins to establish where the "year of the Hijra" is inscribed, using a separate term or characters and in which language it clearly denotes this. I read with interest: " ...indicates that the administrative Arabic elite gradually developed an awareness of its Islamic identity, but there was still no overt representation of the Islamic religion and its empire" in your paper. This certainly seems self evident.
Yet regarding the coins, do you atttibute the dating to the 'year of the hijra' without specifying textual and character references for each coin?
We know of the dating sytem (Eng) 'year of the arabs' which is inscribed on stone for the dedication of Gadara with a cross to Muawiya in Greek (in the year 726 of the colony, according to the Arabs (kata Arabas) the 42nd year) , Dam at Ta'ifa in Arabic , as well as mentioned in text (Arabum CXII) in the Chronicle of 754 - all anchored in the historically attestable 'Arab' victory in 622 over the Persians.
So, if the year of the Hijra is such a reliable yardstick where are the references or mentions in contemporary accounts of this event other than in 9th and 10th century Abaassid sources?
What Arab victory over Persians in 622? Is this CE and AD dating or what I don’t understand
@@mustafaabuamer AD obviuosly
@@MrDrbld but what was this “victory”
Also this is last question
Does “in the year 726 of the colony”
Mean the 726th year the town has been established in Roman control
So it is not 726AD correct ? But 663 AD
1:00:00 who is the questioner? was his dissertation made public? Stewart...?
ziyad's father weren't a "greek doctor", his mother was the slaev. He was called ibn Abih, Ibn murjanna (son of his father, son of murjanna/his mother's name.) The story is true, father of Muawiyah himself said it (Abu Sufyian) after the second caliph's assassination, Umar Al-faruq. He was too worried about being punished for adultery while he was alive. This guy doesn't even seem to know about Karbala or the Zubayrid revolt
At 20:00 you discuss coinage of Ziyad, i am surprised that you are unaware of Ziyads genetic origins, he was not a son of a Slave, even that would have been more honourable than what he was. Ziyad is mentioned in hadith literature as Ziyad ibn Abihi ( Ziyad son of his father ), later it came to light that he was an illegitimate child of Abu Sufyan ( Muawiyas father and Yazids grandfather).
He was of an illegitimate Arab Quraishi stock which he proved throughout his life and his son Ubaydullah ibn Ziyad reconfirmed at Kerbela.
None of that is relevant, since Islam wipes out what preceded it, and Ziyad was conceived prior to his parents embracing Islam. So it’s literally as if none of that happened, and only a person directly violating Islamic principles would hold a Muslim’s birth during jahiliyyah against him. As to the tragedy at Karbala, it was yet another assault upon the Ahlul Bayt by the Shi’a of Kufa, the same people from whom the assassin of Ali (RAA) bin Abi Talib came, the same people who stabbed al-Hassan bin Ali (RAA) in his thigh to the bone, nearly killing him, and who had called al-Hassan (RAA) the “Humiliator of the Believers”, mutinied against him, and raided and looted his camp and even his personal belongings, and they are the same people who massacred al-Hussain bin Ali (RAA), and who Zaynab bint Ali (RAA) and Ali Zayn ul-Abideen bin al-Hussain (RAA) made du’aa against, and they were the same people who later repeated the same tragedy against Zayd bin Ali Zayn ul-Abideen (RA), massacring Zayd (RA) when he refused to disown the legacy of the Caliphs Abu Bakr (RAA), Umar (RAA), and Uthman (RAA).
You should read the authentic accounts of how the Shi’a of Kufa betrayed al-Hussain (RAA) bin Ali (RAA) and turned against him, causing his cousin Muslim bin Aqeel (RAA) to be killed, and how they then volunteered in the army that finally surrounded and killed al-Hussain (RAA), and how Shimr bin Thul Jawshan was a veteran of Ali (RAA) bin Abi Talib’s army, and how al-Hussain (RAA) made du’aa against the Shi’a of Kufa for their betrayal, and how his sister Zaynab bint Ali (RAA) and his son Ali Zayn ul-Abideen (RA) also made du’aa against the treacherous Shi’a of Kufa, and how the Shi’a themselves admitted their treachery by forming a movement called at-Tawaboon (the Penitents) whose goal was to make tawbah (repentance) for their treachery, and how the Shi’a of Kufa betrayed Zayd (RA) bin Ali (RA) bin al-Hussain (RAA) in exactly the same way as they betrayed his grandfather, and how they betrayed Zayd (RA) because he refused to disassociate from the Rashidun Caliphs Abu Bakr (RAA), Umar (RAA), and Uthman (RAA), insisting that growing up among Ahlul Bayt he had only ever heard good things about the first three Caliphs, causing Zayd (RA) to call them the Rawafidh for rejecting him. Yes the Shi’a mistreated and even killed the Ahlul Bayt. And let’s not forget, of course, that it was literally members of the Shi’a of Ali (RAA) who assassinated Ali (RAA), and stabbed al-Hassan (RAA) and nearly killed him by driving a dagger in his thigh all the way into his femur. It’s no wonder that that the Aliids/Talibiyeen/Hashimiyeen continued to intermarry with their cousins, the Umayyads and the progeny of the Caliphs Abu Bakr (RAA) and Umar (RAA) for generations afterward, going out of their way to name generations of their sons and daughters after Abu Bakr (RAA), Umar (RAA), Uthman (RAA) and Aisha (RAA). The Aliids much preferred to reconcile and maintain their almost uniformly positive relations with the close Companions (RAA) of the Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS) and the Umayyads, rather than have anything whatsoever to do with the ever treacherous Shi’a of Iraq who did nothing but oppress and even murder the Ahlul Bayt for generations. There’s not a single example on record of any Aliid/Talibi/Hashimi intermarrying with persons deemed to be Imami Shi’a, whereas the examples of intermarriage with the Companions (RAA) and the Aliids’ Umayyad cousins number in the dozens and span generations. But I’m sure that you already knew all of this, of course.
@@samy7013 Ziyad ibn Abihi, enough said. Institution of marriage is older than the period of Last Revelation.
How come you failed to mention the parading in chains of the survivors of Karbala throughtout Iraq and Sham and the taking of them to Yazid's ( may Allah's swt mercy be withdrawn from him ) court?
Did the Shia of Ali as. hang the corpse of Zaid ibn Ali ra. for 4 years?
Was it a Shia army who later came and ransacked Medina, raped the women and had their horses urinate in the Prophet's mosque? And thereafter ransacked Mecca and used the catapults against the Holy Kaaba?
The Tewaboon did their act to try to expiate themselves for not coming to help to Hussain's as. caravan.
But no worries you will enter your grave with your version of history and i will enter my grave with my version of history.
I asume Tisfun is Ctesifon
And Al Aqola is Al Hira
Maybe...
If possible please give a presentation on the early Arab Byzantine Coins especially those with Muhammad name On them and cross. These are very interesting and their exact dates matter a lot in the history of the development/emergence of Islam.
One reason is that there are coins from the Palestine area that bear the name Muhammad and a figure holding a cross. Most date coin to late 600s but there is also the view that they maybe from earlier. There is also textual evidence that Muhammad was in Palestine in 630s. Could the coins be struck by him or his immediate successor? Then what does the cross say about early Islam?
I agree and am skeptical of both sides. But an alternative interpretation is that Islam as we know it from 8-9 centuries was not developed yet. The Islamic tradition says the goal of the conquest was to spread Islam and invite the infields to Islam. According to the tradition Muhammad wrote letters to the Sasanian and Byzantine kings and invited them to Islam and yet they kept minting coins with the infields’ symbols? This was a religious movement according to the tradition not a political one. The idea of pragmatism makes sense but does not match well with the traditional narrative. The tradition islamic narrative is almost silent on acknowledging that before Abdl Malik they even minted coins. I believe Al Tabari says that he was the first to mint coins.
But the Palestine coins are not necessarily refuting the Islamic tradition, if the Muhammad coin can be dated to earlier date, may indeed disprove the theory that Muhammad was invented later, yet it may also prove that Muhammad was alive longer than what the tradition says. And also it may prove that Muhammad’s movement was primarily focused on Jerusalem and rebuilding the temple as Ummar did.
Actually do you know if people have found specific examples of the coins that were struck without cross and then replaced? These are the type of questions that can shed more light on the sequence of events.
there are coins with pole (in place of cross) on steps and other similar ones. Are you implying they may be counterfeit?
Also about the notion of “allah’s will” remember Abbasids had an agenda against the Ummayads and interest in distorting the history. So “Allah’s will” depends on who and when writes the history.
@Lee G but in Marw thay start to mint Persian coins but instadw moons thay put crosses om it. so it is not just pragmatic but they wasn:t muslims