Ex-Tesla engineer creates Sodium battery as good as LFP for $25,000 EVs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- Ex-Tesla engineer creates Sodium battery as good as LFP for $25,000 EVs
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#tesla #sodiumbattery #lithiumbattery #lfp #elonmusk
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For any battery, please list:
1) gravimetric energy density (Wh/kg),
2) volumetric energy density (Wh/L),
3) cycle life,
4) calendar life.
Depending on the specs, the Sodium battery may be only suitable for stationary instead of mobile applications. Meaning the Sodium battery may never be utilized in cars as the energy efficiency is not sufficient to compete with the alternatives.
Finally, please also specify whether the materials in the cells contain enough value for recycling to be worthwhile. If the recycling cost exceeds the material value, then Lithium batteries will still be more beneficial for the environment since the materials won't be "used up" and go into landfills.
IMHO, anything that doesn't go into landfills is still better than something that does go into landfills.
That is actually highly variable.
The EV1 used *lead acid* batteries and was successful enough that a group of people wanted to keep it. (And lead acid are recycled, enforced by law, and occasionally defeated by organized crime).
And GM along with Chevron engaged in what was *probably* a criminal conspiracy - NOT to keep the EV1 because that part wasn't actually criminal but to defeat CARB and the "will" of the people (and that part was!).
My Point: the EV1 was NO Tesla Model 3 - not even close - but if an equivalent Na-Ion battery vehicle was available for $20K US (or $15K) it would occupy a big chunk of the US vehicle market.
The people who would buy it are the people who just need to do things like buy groceries and get to work and who DGAF about zero-to-sixty. Who don't have an acre in the burbs and a bass boat and an RV and right now drive a ten-year-old Toyota. University students, people with basic jobs - the people who bought the ORIGINAL Toyotas and Hondas and who are no longer served in any way by the auto industry. The crappiest, most inconvenient Chinese mini-car is STILL more convenient than MOST American transit.
Power windows, locks, A/C and cruise only became "standard" items in the late 90's - all this fancy s**t was for rich people's cars. We don't NEED OTA updates and a "connected" car; Ford trying to "out-Tesla" Tesla is a stupid strategy. Sun-Tzu would not be impressed.
Calendar life is largely ignored, but it will have a dramatic effect on resale value of EVs. If a battery pack has a 300K life (great!) but an 8 year calendar life, used EVs will have little value if you know it will expire like milk. 2014 Teslas are now 10 years old, and a lot of them have had their battery packs replaced. Of course, those were earlier batteries with less effective management so hopefully current Teslas will last 15 years at least.
@@ohger1 I know someone who has an original 2014 Model S. He has never had his battery replaced and has had AFAIK very little issue with his "S" and raves about it (in comparison to the 2012 Porsche Cayenne it replaced).
Of course, he IS rich and did always have another vehicle (or two) and the Cayenne was a "toy" just as much as the "S" was, but that's how the market starts.
His wife now has an "X".
👍👍👍
Sodium-ion batteries are recyclable. Sodium-ion batteries typically use less toxic materials, making them potentially safer and simpler to recycle. The recycling processes and infrastructure for sodium-ion batteries are not as developed or widespread as those for lithium-ion batteries, however one would expect that to change over time, as sodium battery storage gains market share over coming years and decades.
Pro tip, whenever a new battery company does not specifically give energy density in Watt hours per Kilogram be skeptical. Vague talk as usual.
CATL Second gen sodium ion battery is said to offer 200 Wh/kg, so I wouldn't be surprised if this ex-Tesla engineer's design approaches that number.
Watt hours:
per kg
per litre
per dollar
yeah don’t buy it- adds on 200 pds, 300 pds what is it and the form factor is not standard
@@JoeyBlogs007Ex-Tesla Engineer from an Ex that hardly do batteries.😂😂😂 This ex-Tesla guy probably just wants to raise money from private equity companies
yes, this is straight forward biggest problem for the battery for cars
Elon likely cut their charger investment for two main reasons:
1. Keeping on a bunch of engineers for a finished product means newer versions keep getting made - often needlessly
2. NACS - the Tesla charging protocol - is now public domain and will be the ultimate standard, so EVERYONE will be expanding the charging network, so Tesla doesn't need to go it alone.
It was a temper tantrum.
@@greghelton4668If it was a temper tantrum, it was extremely well thought out.
I especially agree with point #2.
It was a combination of temper tantrum & "looncraz's" point #2. I am pretty sure that Musk wanted to offload the burden of investing capital into new chargers on the likes of BP & other 3rd parties who are building their own charging networks using the Tesla standard. Musk saw the Tesla charging network as an enabler for the mass adoption of EVs, and that has now been accomplished, so he'd rather that others take up the torch going forward. Also, I suspect that Musk only wants to roll out one more type of charger, like a mega charger for big trucks. This means that he wanted his charger division chief (Tinnucci, or something like that) to massively trim her organization. She probably balked & Musk had a tantrum.
@@brunopadovani7347 the thing is batteries are still evolving rapidly and backward compatibility needs to be maintained. Elon could have spun the organization out and force the other companies to buy in. It was a rash decision. The charging unit could have brought a billion dollars to Tesla.
Regardless to this battery company it’s fairly obvious there’s an arms race for cheaper longer lasting better batteries worldwide, and it will happen,
Yes, LFP and Sodium are not as power packed as Lithium Ion but safer. Lithium ion better for performance like ebikes for instance.
@@jaaklucas1329 yes and I’ve heard Lithium Iron phosphate lasts up to 4000 cycles, that’s amazing if true,
Bring on all the battery types! The more competition the lower the price and better availability of each one.
Absolutely. Battery tech is in its infancy. Solid state, sodium ion, as yet unimagined designs. I hope to see in my lifetime batteries that do not catch fire, can be charged in 5 minutes, and have a 1000 mile range.
I hate the new trend of battery manufacturers listing range capability, rather than energy density. Because you can use a bigger, heavier battery in a lightweight EV and get more range. But it is not apples to apples. I like the fact that you added the point that the added weight for the sodium pack (over LFP) would be the same as an added passenger, to have a sodium pack EV with a 300 mile range. Keep up the good work!
Yea and idiots like Sam perpetuating the nonsense.
when they are not listing the specs as they should it means it's a hoax.
I won’t consider an EV under 400 miles of range.
Ok
Why? You drive 400 mi per day? Week? Month?
That's fine, Uber is waiting for your call.
@steveanderson9660 Do you do a lot of long distance driving? If so then your statement makes sense. Most people drive less than 50 miles per day, so such a requirement is just a holdover from the way we use gas cars.
250 is actually awesome, providing they actually got that under all conditions with little degradation over time. Current battery packs are fine for most with home chargers, and deep pockets to buy them.
300 mile range and a 10 minute charging time should put EV’s over the top. It will mean upgrading a lot of chargers, though.
'The Big Short'...great movie.
Cheap battery in a Selfplug-in V2G EV parked 23hrs every day and Rooftop solar PV and the original national grid for millions and millions and millions of customers will replace all centralised generation, fossil fueled, nuclear, solar farms, wind farms, pumped hydro, etc.
The grid is incredibly expensive to expand it's capacity.
$×km = insane economically.
Takes 3 reads to get what you are saying. Take the time to spell it out as the concept is solid but the 'bullet pointing' makes it too hard to read.
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd Well said Tim.
Delta makes a new battery that would enable a pure solar charging effort for those who could use it. And possibly allow fast "home" charging for some renters (because you can take it with you when you move, and it will always either have a use or a market value).
Make hybred electric charging stations. Put them near gas stations, and use the fossil fuel infrastructure to run generators to power them. Then phase in green power including grid upgrades. No waste, it scales, and gets us where we want to be in the end.
You’re describing Aptera.
@@TimMountjoy-zy2fd thanks for your comment.
I have posted longer comments, but the simple points expand into a very long post.
The grid expansion costs are the biggest problem. And nobody sees it.
Most national grids cost more than the nations entire GDP. Fun fact.
And built over decades and decades.
My concern is that non nuclear countries will start to go nuclear, and then the grid capacity problem will be seen.
Australia has a $ 2 billion pumped hydro expansion project, which is now a $ 12 billion project with new grid construction.
They are not going to stop work, too much invested.
Australian nuclear promoters are well connected and being misleading.
So I speak up.
Sam you are wrong here. Recent major discoveries of Lithium in the US should come into production in the next three years. More than enough to completely electrify the entire US transport system.
Once this happens Lithium prices will continue to go down or at the very least descend to a reasonable level.
While sodium is great, especially in cold weather, chemically (i.e. just by its location of electrons) Lithium should always be able to be more energy dense than sodium. It's just physics.
Therefore, while I see specific areas where sodium based batteries will be best due to temperatures, Lithium chemistry batteries will still rule the day.
A simple google search shows there is 30% more lithium in the Earth's crust than lead. Now that lithium is being mined and refined more due to demand, I don't think the price of lithium will be going up much if at all in the future.
STILL HAPPY WITH 2023 FSD, LFP MODEL 3.WITH 10K MILES. MAX CHARGE, LOST 2 MILES.
My 2023 M3 RWD with 16k miles has dropped from 273 to 265.
Another reason to slow charger expansion: faster charging TIME. If you can charge in 10 minutes instead of 40, you can use a lot of existing gas station real estate, including the stores. WAY more cost effective.
Yep, we need both - cheaper batteries with the same lifespan and much faster charging that doesn’t degrade them faster. We’ll need less ‘gas stations’, but re-using the existing ones we do need makes way more sense than millions of dedicated new ones.
Why haven't more gas stations, a.k.a. fuel and food mini marts, installed these bad boys? Would keep traffic coming to their locations.
@@ChickensAndGardeningthey are around here- Midwest. Kim and Go chain specifically. Also Hy-Vee grocery stores- the perfect amount of time to charge and shop at the same time.
Not possible to do that charge,say 30 Kwh in 10 minutes,it is a lie, the battery would explode in 1 second; you'd need a feed of 180 Kw of power(30 : (1/6)) into the small battery, just not possible.
when you delve a little deeper into this aspect, you'll uncover the Achille's heel of the EV world. To charge a 100kWh car battery in 10mins will draw 600kW. And that's just for ONE fuel 'pump'. To upgrade a modest service station (which is able to provide gas to 8 cars simultaneously), would need to draw 4.8MW off the grid. And that is just ONE service station. Good luck laying all that copper to get to that nice real estate .. even if we allow for the fact that you can charge at home if you have as many garage spaces as there are cars in households
I think the time of charge is more important than the range as most people drive on average 50 miles and only two or three time a year going 1000 miles.
Any shortage of lithium is just a short term issue. There is more than sufficient lithium in the world, just a temporary shortage of miners and processors. Consequently the price will continue to drop IMO. Sodium may have other advantages and will need them to compete with lithium.
theres a very very finite amount of lithium on earth and we would run out very quickly with the amount of batteries we need for EVERYTHING
so no actually, the price will go up insane amounts and we will have more and more expensive mining with lower grade lithium
this is another reason why storage grid batteries are looking for literally any technology thats cheap, for EVS and devices, its gonna remain lithium batteries though
The first electric car I drove was in 1973 and it was a perfect 1910 Baker Electric. It had a tiller for steering and a Vase for flowers. Computer chips were new at the time and would a great addition to control the motor, but the needed battery technology was still decades away. EV’s needed to wait.
Dude, surprised you haven't covered the insane Tesla price cuts in Australia announced today.
Don’t worry mate, Sam makes like 6 vlogs a day.. I bet it’s the next one released
For a second I thought you were saying Telstra price cuts.
@@JoeyBlogs007 LOL
they are lowering the price because they can't sell them
Any smart business would sensibly expand their market by lowering prices.
Anyway production prices have dropped due to constant innovation.
They won't catch fire!
The previous Standard Range RWD in the United States had the same battery back, it was just software locked, the unlocked battery is the Long Range RWD. That’s how they will be offering an unlock option in there future (announced).
Able to be used in VPPs, neighborhood level distributed battery storage linking residential and local commercial solar.
I've been saying Sodium Ion was the future for a while now and will replace Lithium, once super charging becomes ubiquitous. That is the future for EV technology.
💯!
Not so fast. I think Sodium will be big evenutally, but people already complain about how heavy evs are. Can you imagine even heavier? Remember money talks. Look what the market is doing. BYD has lithium mines lol. Explain that to me. Sodium still has a way to go but promising.
@@StuartBenoit-se5kj
The point is that Na-ion tech can power a daily commuter without excessive weight AND charge faster for under $30k.
@@PETERJOHN101 You are also forgetting solid state batteries that have even more range and don't have the weight issue. But runs in to high-cost issues. Ultimately, lithium will remain king but sodium can help ease the pain on lithium.
They are even doing battery exchanges in some places. Personally, I don't think this will catch on long-term as charging is a better method IMO. Hard to bet on anything regarding EV/Battery tech because it's improving so much. Tomorrow, they may find something better than all current technology.
The BIG question is --- Does the battery actually exist in a vehicle proved to work?
No
No, but on paper it looks amazing and you should definitely buy a Tesla because buying any other car is like owning a horse... also, something about full self driving and the car being a robot.
Regardless, buy a Tesla and loads of stock... do it now before its diluted and Musk gest the $56billion handout!!!
Yes
More than 1. Just because you don't know about them Means nothing. They already do exist. And yes they are real
@@elftax Love to, waiting for that "affordable" one.
As for investing, love to but need all my money to live on
@@LithiumBatteryGuy 120w/KG is not a gamechanger, its les than half the density of Lithium, which means you will need 2-3x the battery weight to match similar performance to Lithium.
@@BuellUlysses you're missing out on $$$, with FSD your car can be making you money as a robotaxi!! Musk said that it will be ready by 2020...2021 max, its now 2024 so the technology is more than mature.... you are missing out on $30k a year in potential earnings
So far Sodium ion batteries have the same dendrite issue as early NMC batteries if not worse. Cycle life and shelf life is a very important consideration when choosing which battery chemistry is best for vehicles.
Good thing people actually have Na-Ion cells in their hands to test. There is significant progress on this already.
What is the battery best deal for homes.
7:25 maybe Ford’s Blue Oval plant in Marshall Michigan will just use Na-ion. The Na could come from the salt mines near Detroit.
Once Again... You've heard it here first... Electric Viking. I swear, for this type of info, there is no better channel!
Electric Viking - Can you use KWH's to describe a battery rather than the number of miles or Km's which all depend on the car.
He's all hype,BS and smoke and mirrors why would he quote anything that matters.
I have to agree with Elon if you actually have battery tech ready for production start sending samples to integrators instead of making press releases.
Sodium batteries have been researched for a very long time. At Comdex I was shown a proof of concept sodium ion button battery. Comdex las vegas was ended in 2004. That's 20 years ago.
I would like to see how this could impact home battery storage mixed with solar. That could be a game changer price wise.
Sodium battery is cheap, good range, fast charging. easy to manufacture. Best battery so far. Will replace LFP.
Actually, I do recall a few economists predicting a crisis in the financial markets as the mid 2000s approached due to the happening in real-estate finance industry.
Sodium purified to battery grade costs quite a bit more than out table salt. You tell us what's the price?
Sounds like one of those (daily) game changers, a.k.a. vaporware...
Presales are where the money’s at, and Revux is the best opportunity right now.
For Stationary storage, Sodium ion battery is best
Morning mate
Another downward force on battery prices is the industrialization of. Artery recycling.
Talking about batteries for EVs, we cannot ignore the energy density provided by a given technology.
If I had to drive with my Tesla M3P with an additional 100kg for a sodium battery I would have never bought this car....
Heavy "passenger", 100 kg...
What difference does the weight of one extra passenger make?
It would be great if these batteries could also be used as replacement batteries for older EVs. No one is addressing that limited market. imagine the value added if you could get a replacement battery for your EV, less than an ice engine replacement. We in the US would not need cheaper Chinese EVs if you could refresh an older EV for an affordable EV option.
After market refurbishment of EV batteries has been around for years. 4 years ago you could refurbish a hybrid battery for as little as 1,700usd.
Revux is the talk of the town in all my crypto circles. Big things coming!
with lithium prices slow low you'd think production wouldn't be ramping up but it seems that many companies are still looking at building new mines and going into production even at these low prices
probably due to that increased demand on the horizon, but if production outpaces demand then the prices wont increase and with sodium now reaching large scale production and commercialisation the prices of lithium might never fully recover
it's possible that the price was simply a reflection of supply shock and now with production ramped up and plenty more coming online it's possible that the prices of the past will remain in history
no us supply yet
Long term Lithium is very much needed. Short term all the US manufacturers (besides Tesla) are switching to hybrids because they can't compete at a profit with EVs.
@@michaelnurse9089
Right, because engine tech was so profitable due to complex patents and they are desperate to maintain that market.
All in on BTC and Revux, with a small bet on SOL and ADA.
Predicting a 100x surge for Revux post-Binance launch.
Although lithium price may become higher short term, the supply side has been reacting and is now stronger and more scattered around the world, which will probably modulate price
Does anyone know what the price of a Tesla Model Y would be minus the batteries?
Na batteries are going to be way heavier, I did a. Napkin calculation, and a sodium atom is 23/7 =3.2 times heavier, and the energy potential is about 5 % less (ionization energy) so we're talking a 3.4 - 3.5 times more heavy battery for the same amount of energy storage. It's s pipedream for cars.
Everyone’s talking about Qventi lately. Feels like another Revux situation.
Other passenger may weight easily 250 pounds. In Asia it is less, but in Europe and In the US that is just an ordinary man.
Tony Saba predicted the battery price
If this were true; it would make a big improvement over Lithium which is scarce #22 in prevelance in the earth's crust. Of course energy density is not the full story. How about life cycle; - how many recharges? How prone to fires? How long to get it into production and is anyone actually investing to do it? It could be a step towards realizing many of the claims for EVs or just another bit of hype without the details.
Na cycle life will be substantially better than Li but at a lower energy density. And virtually no fire risk. It's already in a production car made by BYD. The advantage is that it will shave the cost of a mid-range commuter to something under $25K usd.
@@PETERJOHN101 Do you mean the BYD Seagull? they backed out and didn't put in a sodium pack. Lower energy density means shorter range. for the same weight. Sodium batteries to date have been fragile, not standing up to shock; they might be more sutiable to battery farms. Why do you think they will be less flamable? They are just up on the level up from Lithium on the Periodic table - meaning it is chemically similar to Lithium; just heavier. Maybe you are thinking of solid state which is suppose to be less flamable because it has no liquid substraight.
Dont think so (unless you are desperate), Na three times as heavy as Li. It would add around 40kg to battery weight.
Yeah! But some 30% to 50% cheaper than Li batteries, so, like in so many other things, price matters...
Not sure if Sam mentioned it but the source article said a 300 mile Na battery would be heavier by about the weight of one passenger.
Yes, but that's a comparison of raw elements, not the finished product.
@@nunagoras A 60KWhr EV traction battery using lithium has about 20Kg of elemental Li at $15/kg ($300).
However, a year ago the price was $80/kg. Since then a lot of new production has come on line driving prices down. How long current price holds remains to be seen but I wouldnt be surprised if it drifts up a bit.
A comparable sodium battery has about 60Kg of elemental Na at around $5/kg ($300).
So the price difference is currently inconsequential.
So .. is the demand for batteries or lithium? The lithium demand will most likely drop in comparison to estimates as other-than-lithium batteries come online
Sounds great. I hope today's daily breakthrough technology proves to be the real deal, but I won't hold my breath.
It’s just more empty hype. It it existed then it would be an actual product rather than mere empty words.
I'm afraid you're being a bit premature that breakthrough is coming tomorrow.
There is already a sodium-ion battery in the BYD Seagull, soo.
@@singed8853
We already have third generation battery tech in EVs which is why range has doubled since 2018.
what's the degradation rate of Sodium? How sensitive are they to temperature?
Very very low degradation with the latest iterations and they can be charged and discharged very quickly from 0-100%. Not sure about temp.
They are heavier and much less energy dense(vol) but use ultra cheap materials sodium and magnesium which are waste products from other industries. They are about to take off in a big way on stationary storage
They are extremely good at low temperatures and have very high cycle life, they will be perfect for home storage and smaller cars with up to 200 miles range.
I read that sodium batteries are 3X heavier than lithium batteries. Wrong?
Wrong, that would be based on a comparison of raw elements rather than the finished product.
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This Charges Everything
This has indeed the smell of another (daily) game changer! 😂😂😂
Sounds like FUD to me.
Probably good for grid scale batteries.
Be good if true though.
The price of lithium, like any other commodity, will yo-yo up and down according to supply and demand. A lot of investment has gone into increasing production in expectation of exponential rise in demand, but as EV sales start to stall, you have a glut of lithium chasing fewer customers than expected. Analysts project that demand will gradually outstrip the ability to produce lithium and prices will then go up.
Sounds great. Just one caveat.
You can charge a 400+ volt car in just 11 minutes, that is an incredible amount of power being transferred. Home charging would not be able to preform that as it would require electrical tower level charging stations. I don't think the government would allow that kind of risk around ordinary people. Could that ever be made safe? I don't know. Your thoughts?
They are not designed for home use. Nor are they required, as EV home charging is generally done overnight at lower power rates and perform that function more than adequately.
The problem with sodium batteries is that they can't keep that range for a long time.
It downgrades a lot more fast then LFP and lithium ion.
It is a very cheap battery somehow.
I believe the term would be vaporware.
How many times can they be cycled?
40,000cycles.
@@dalemsilas8425 Do not be silly please.
@@christopherj2231 you'll find out.
@@christopherj2231 Natron says its 50k with their unique chemistry and prussian-blue electrodes.
@@dalemsilas8425 OK incredible.
Heads up, pay very little attention to any such news releases from Tesla.
Scale it, sell it, then I'll believe it...
I realize this is a video about battery but discussion has started regarding the 2018 compensation.
Rather say it once here and be done with it.
The media has misrepresented the payout.
Elon Musk would need to pay Tesla $7.272 billion to acquire all 303 million shares. Regardless of the stock price.
Elon is not getting money from Tesla the company, but from the shareholders via dilution of their stock by 9.5%.
However that does not mean the value of shareholder stock will change. That is up to the market.
If traders see the yes votes as a positive TSLA may increase in price. Or dump. We don't know.
If the vote is yes Elon has to wait 5 years prior to selling this stock.
So not not depressing the market by flooding it with stock.
Tony Seba predicted the rapid decline in lithium prices.
northvolt is run by another ex tesla engineer, and his company is nearly at IPO with support from european governments. they are making lithium, sodium , theyv bought startups like cuberg so, think that guy won the race of ex tesla engineers
They make the cathode from aluminum. Add 1% gold and your battery will last 10,000 cycles and will add much more storage. It amounts to a little more money.
The gold can be recycle, I assume.
any proofs?
@@olgglo well. no. but the cathode is what cracks. an thats sort of what reduces its life. currently they add some materials like nickel an cobalt. to stabilize it an make it last longer. im thinking the only reason for not trying or using gold is the cost. i did a little research. there is room for improvement with different materials like gold. atm from a manufacturing pov its whats the cheapest, fastest, an best to produce. hence lithium phosphate. i think over the next few years well see batteries with gold in them, or some form of precious metal.
@@Quickcat21MK that's an interesting thing to know, thanx
Tesla slowing down superchargers rollout as wireless charging likely coming. Don't need aboveground infrastructure for wireless.
i like how the video becomes a Tesla commercial half way through
Stock footage Sam uses all the time as it’s not subject to copyright strike. He often put’s minutes of this on the end of videos to pad them out.
They never give the battery longevity. Would be nice to have a cheaper chemistry but Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries will last 1 million miles+ (modern ternary batteries good for half that).
Interesting that Musk seems to be thinking along the lines of future batteries being more than capable of cost-effective long-range capability (his about-face regarding en-route charging).
Also, these sodium batteries will hopefully perform well at low temperatures and offer improved safety over existing battery technology?
Sodium has virtually no fire risk and performs better in cold weather.
if it cost 25000 to make the buyer will pay twice that allowing for warranty claims and profit margins
Question: If the chemical lithium iron phosphate exists, is there such thing as sodium iron phosphate, or for any other alkali metals?
Yes, there is such thing as a sodium iron phosphate. And there are sodium iron phosphate batteries in the lab. They are even more robust that LiFePO4 batteries they can handle even high charge and discharge rates (50C) than Li batteries and LiFePO4 batteries. The down side, a low power density of NaFePO4 batteries. It is unlikely NaFePO4 will ever be seen in a car. It might be able to see use as a immobile power bank... but then we will have to compare cycles life to other battery alternatives.
@@nickl5658oh nice. Can there potassium, rubidium, cesium, and/or francium equivalent of this chemical? I know this question sounds bizzare but I’m curious
@@jadenspires1891
Most metals CAN be used as electrolytes, not sure about those in particular.
@@PETERJOHN101 oh wow, I did not know that
Solid state sodium batteries are right around the corner
If you factor in the price of lithium and the availability of production facilities
I would think Tesla has better contracts - prohibiting their ex-engineers working in the same field for a loooong time
Looks like this is another example of the best (lithium-ion battery) being the enemy of the good enough (sodium-ion battery) when based on battery energy density (watt hour per kilogram). Evidently, technological advances have made this difference less of an issue.
Yes, the difference between the raw elements and the finished products are quite different. Na-ion is perfectly good for a daily commuter.
Mguy just did an excellent video about 10min charging. Go watch him and learn the math behind charging…..
It will work, but it will be heavier
Cheers mate
Why Tesla battery catch fires no good
That was 2nd generation battery tech before 2021, no longer an issue. Read up.
If the Tesla engineer developed the sodium battery whilst employed at Tesla, Tesla owns the tech even if the engineer has left the company.
Not unless he took secrets. If the knowledge is in his head probably not.
@@greghelton4668 He can copy the technology at the new company, but if Tesla can prove he invented it while on Tesla's dime, they own the tech.
They can come in and take all the profits.
@@protorhinocerator142 there have been numerous cases where departed employees worked on technologies that existed at their previous employer. Time and time again courts ruled against former employers. As long as IP isn’t stolen it’s not illegal. Case in point many companies are working on sodium batteries as we speak.
So true
@@greghelton4668 But the engineer still can’t use the tech because, if the engineer was in the employ of Tesla when the tech was developed the Intellectual Property is owned by Tesla.
The engineer can use their acquired knowledge to further develop the tech. But replicating the ‘Tesla Tech’ from memory is a breach of IP law.
Better batteries = Cheaper cars.
400km of real world range combined with around 20k price hatchback or sedan will sell like hotcakes.
Why not an electric Kia Rio? Who cares if it drives itself, just get one under $15K.
When speaking about battery tech can you please speak in measurable terms and be clear about the claims of what you are covering? If you say a vehicle has 200 more miles of range that doesn’t establish any metric of the battery that is measurable or comparable. My 75kwh model y gets 310 miles range. I would suggest doing a side by side comparison of battery size, range, and price. Or when talking about LFP battery vs sodium talk in terms of energy density. You fast talked past the important part where you claimed the battery is 40% more energy dense. Just something I have been noticing about your videos, too much conjecture for my taste. (This is from a place of love) ❤
Exciting news! But 300 miles of range should be a minimum starting point, not an ongoing standard. To compete realistically, BEV's will need 500 miles (800 km) or better range, and sub-10 minutes charging time to get to 80%. When these metrics are achieved in a $25K package, there will be no strong argument for purchasing a gasoline vehicle (other than specialized form factor such as heavy hauler pickup truck). I'd buy one in a minute!
In the UK a study showed for all ice vehicle's sold there in 2023 the average driving range was under 400kms.
Imo 200+miles is fine for the lowest end in town style run about evs as long as a 10-80% charge happens in 10-15mins.
That's maybe 2 years away from being seen as standard imo. China thanks to catl is close right now to that except it's 20-80% in under 20mins.
Mid trims need closer to 300-350 miles and charge 10-80% in 10-20mins, that also is probably 2-3years away from being seen as standard.
Upper trim&priced model's will switch over to semi solid state cells from late 2024&early 2025.
True solid state cells in 2026-28 will all go to the upper trim trucks large suvs mpvs&commercial long haul applications+airplanes, drones, cell phones and tablets or other consumer devices.
So those will have similar 10-80% charging times as mid spec vehicle's despite larger overall capacity pack's.
By 2030 I think solid state cells are in all premium segment offerings. Semi solid state then covers everything except the very cheapest evs.
Those will be lfp, lmfp, m3p, sodium and other low end per kwh, also covering bess, home batteries, taxis, 150-200 mile evs power tools etc.
@@4literv6 Day by day, most people don't drive 100 miles, true. But people do drive several hundred miles in a week. I refill my vehicle about every two weeks, and it would be a pain to have to recharge every single day or every other day. Yeah I know, you can plug it in at home every night. But I'd rather not be _required_ to do that. 500 miles of range (800 km) would be sufficient to make the vehicle the equivalent of any gasoline car on the road.
@@ChickensAndGardening
My ICE car only gets 300 miles and I have to fill it up twice a week. I would gladly switch to home charging.
More promises of wonder batteries. We get a lot of this.
I'll only believe them when I see them for sale.
Too late... BYD has a Na-ion EV in production now.
Tsla is after years still a one car (model y) company. As an investor since 30 years l can predict that this will collapse into nothing. All attempts of Tsla to create another running model failed. Now 140.000 people produce 1.6 million model y. this is ridicilous.. 11 cars per employee, per year pushing investors with the so called catalysts. It would not surprise me if tesla ends 2024 with a loss, stock diving down to 40 $. After some years the stock may go up a little again.
Is it just me, or is Qventi getting a lot of attention like Revux?
ONVO
Lithium is not a rare element. Look at the periodic table it is just below hydrogen, the most common element in the universe!
Need to watch better videos. (Maker Just Have A Think) Where it was explained Natron battery tech will be heavy and how they were made up. Aiming for data centre back up and such use NOT cars.
BYD already makes a Na-ion EV 😂
@@PETERJOHN101 Yes but this new supposed improvement I had seen about before this and it is not aimed at cars and may explain why there is no mass rush to use them instead yet for cars.
Lot of new stuff for ever being developed or reported in battery tech, going to take years to settle down, which is what probably puts a lot of EVs, having one and then finding it out dated by some new development.
Who is going to sell them to?
Ford? GM?, tonota? 😂
Sodium is a more reactive metal than lithium. It is three times heavier. Its diameter is 20% greater. But it is much cheaper and more plentiful and behaves better in cold environments.
True, the real game changer is for home storage or huge industrial storage facilities, they are perfect for that.
Do you mean it's density is 20% greater.
@@stevengriffin7873 I haven’t calculated its density. Its mass is 3 times greater.
@@johnfrancis4401 Ok,just referring to your comment of its diameter is 20% greater?
@@johnfrancis4401 Don't remember my physics too well,but if its' mass is three times greater then I suppose it might be three times heavier perhaps.I know on some cars they use polypropylene trim panels instead of ABS as it has a lower mass to save weight for example
When will these BS subsidies end so we can see true cost !!!?
I don't believe the EV industry has matured much at all, I think it's still in it's infancy considering it's potential.
20% market share, Crawling
50% Walking
100% Running
100% + 10yrs (min 20yrs from now) Mature
"300 mile range" is meaningless. You can always size a battery pack to whatever capacity you need. What is the actual energy density of this new battery that is supposedly "as good as LFP" ? No? Nobody knows? Then it's vaporware.
Na-ion is ideal for a daily commuter car even if it tops out at 200 miles of range. Why? Because it can be marketed for under $25k.