VCR vs. Reel to Reel for Recording Music | Can you tell the difference?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.พ. 2021
- well... it's crazy to think, it's crazy to say, but according to GenXers most VCRs actually are capable of extremely hi-fi stereo recordings. here we show why that might be useful.
📼 INFORMATION 📼
VHS tech: • The Impossible Feat in...
Favorite videos on VHS for music: • Music on VHS?! - Vinyl...
• Hi-Fi VHS - The "Poor ...
images and some info from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helical...
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Hey y'all! I'm first and foremost a musician, but I try to present technical information as accurately as possible without over-extending my knowledge. In other words, I don't like bulls**ting. If you're interested in the technical aspects of VHS audio, this article clears up older versions of VHS vs. Hi-Fi stereo VHS (my machine):
www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model/793700/TT190%20-%204626.pdf
✌️📼🎼
Hey y'all again! There has been a lot of back and forth in the comments section of this video and confusion about an older format of VHS sound and the embedded hifi audio that became standard and commonplace by the time I was a little kid.
Luckily for me, my video stands correct when it comes to the spinning head utilizing audio heads as well. This excerpt comes from a forensic science article from 2006...you know, people who have to study tapes as evidence in criminal cases:
"The hi-fi, or frequency-modulation (FM), audio stereo heads are located on the helical-scan drum, often 60 degrees out of phase with the video heads. The hi-fi audio is recorded during the 0.0334-second time period just prior to, but in the same tape location as, the corresponding video information. To allow differentiation of the audio and video signals and to avoid complete erasure of the audio track by the subsequent overlying video track, the signals have different azimuth angles and track widths and record at different tape depths. The video head partially erases the hi-fi audio, usually dropping its amplitude about 12 decibels (dB). The two channels of stereo audio are recorded with different FM carrier frequencies for better record and playback characteristics. Because of the recording methods, the signal-to-noise ratio, frequency response, and other specifications are always better for hi-fi than linear audio. Hi-fi audio quality is virtually the same at both SP and EP speeds; however, not all VCRs have hi-fi audio capability (Beeching 2001; IEC 1999; Trundle 1999)."
www.experts.com/articles/video-and-audio-characteristics-in-vhs-overrecordings-by-bruce-e-koenig
or if you wanna watch a rad video from 1984, check out this one-minute gem:
th-cam.com/video/IF_rTTptah0/w-d-xo.html
Talk about shitty and unwatchable editing. But even without that, it's direct ripoff of Cassette Comeback's video, "Hi-Fi VHS - The Poor Man's Reel To Reel". Stealing content because you don't have the imagination to create your own.
th-cam.com/video/lunkqR2lDag/w-d-xo.html
@@guessundheit6494 Hi Guess! I appreciate your feedback and the time you took to watch and comment here.
I love that video you posted and that content creator Cassette Comeback...
...so much that I had put a link to it in the description already. Let me know if you're ever interested in beginning to create content on your channel and I'd love to talk about imagination, originality and producing.
Of course, you may have another channel that i'm not aware of! Peace, and have a beautiful day 🙏✌️
Hi, I've got a question. What was your gain staging or process for recording into VHS? I have the same VCR as the one in your video but my signal is way to high and clips and distorts, even with the master volume at really low on DAW.
I'm wondering how you got yours to sound so normal.
What he forgot to mention was the COST. Not only are VCR dirt cheap (especially compared to a good reel-to-reel) but the tape cost is miniscule. And, because of the helical recording system, the VCR tape speed has no bearing on sound quality. Meaning for about $20 you can get 6-8 HOURS of recording tape. Try that with reel to reel.
Hi. what want for 1 to 1 quality on VHS !
1. Need PAL or NTSC This is the Best Choice with 4.43 because on NTSC recording take more tape space for audio recording and Les for Video signal Then on Pal ,Left channel is 1.3Mhz Right Channel 1.7Mhz!
2. Need VHS with Long play (LP On PAL OR on NTSC Extended Play EP or (SLP)) Because on this mode lowered video quality but again take more space for AUDIO on tape !
3.HI-FI NICAM because minimum need on drum 2 Long play Head ,2 Standard Quality play Head !
4.Black signal generator on VHS calling this button (SIMUL) Or ( Test signal) on BACK This generate Black video signal ,need for tracking stable simulation because VHS tracking system looking this information for synchronization ! When not synchronize tracking system non stop looking and make on recording noises clicking like scratching noises !
ON VHS Without Black Screen Generation Need give in black screen video signal from another device get same results !
5.For best result need check some VHS Without Recording Level adjustment gives the best recordings when input 5 volts but on 0.5-0.7V results poor !
6. Example devices Panasonic NV-F125( NV-HD100AM) ,NV-F75,NV-F65,NV-FS 200 HQ, The best Choice NV-W1!
7. At last For the BEST QUALITY HI-FI Audio on VHS Need Recording ON NTSC ,4.43 ,EP or SLP ON PAL, LP , Black screen Video input or Black screen Generation, Don't forget about input Voltage!
When doo like that on the result getting Quality best then any professional Reel To Reel And DAT is well plenty models not giving that results !
Analog sound is the best ! :-)
I personally knew about that, VHS is high availability, small, compact, can be extremely great if properly used. The question is about the AC-IN. AC transformer is the major problem of VHS recorder.
@@andodigital1 There's a lot of jargon dropping there but most of it is entirely irrelevant. The DMX (Depth Multiplex) system doesn't care about the video format and many VCRs don't need a video signal to lock on to a Hi-Fi Audio track. Admittedly some cheap ones have trouble as do the high end ones with TBC. But it's not true that an NTSC machine gives better Hi-Fi audio than a PAL one, and it doesn't matter if the recording is SP, LP or EP. Most European users would use LP mode for economy and because very few PAL decks have an EP mode.
it still surprises me of the production quality of this channel even with only 500 subscribers. I look forward to watching every episode that comes out. Keep it up mate.
appreciate the kind words! i’m looking forward to building a community 🤘
@@MadeOnTapeYou already have a community !
i am truly humbled and totally forgot this video was made with about 500 subscribers...i'm always learning and hope that sharing/showing that process is helpful@@DarkTrapStudio
@@MadeOnTape500 subscriber is a big community, it just depend on the quality :) The comparaison was great thanks
The VHS has a surprisingly tasteful low end bump.
Many times when using these vcrs to record it's good to have the video hooked up to something like a small tv. This may help reduce hum and noise by not leaving that jack open.
Also, yes, you need to pump the levels. VCRs have awesome compression and can handle a lot of gain. This is important when recording with vcr.
excellent advice! definitely more exploration of the VCR down the road. thanks for watching 🙏
What could be used best to pump up the levels? Any advice in type of device or model or brand?
@WillemdaGuide I only mean that your gain. What ever you are using (mixer or amp) to bring sound into the vcr. The vcr has its own compression and is really good and handling some amount of gain.
@@SirMillz thanks for your reply, I can pump the output level of my 8 track casette but might it be worth to put an pre-amp in between, or maybe an eq? Just thinking up loud. Thanks again!
@WillemdaGuide sure, a preamp will work. You can always experiment with it until you get the desired sound you are looking for. I do recommend hooking coaxial video up to something like a small TV, which should help reduce noise.
One reason you want to go in with a lot of gain is to reduce that sound to noise ration. But, you probably know this. It's recording science 101.
Oh my gosh I just found my favourite TH-cam channel in the WORLD
that means a lot thank you!
I have so much love for this channel! I'm gonna dig out the vhs tomorrow haha
thanks for being a part of a budding community! 🙏
This is unbelievable content…searching for the tape answers and came across it…thank you…
…BTW…um, am I the only one that thought the VCR sounded the best?…
Same here…I actually hear more hiss coming from the TEAC!?
thanks again George!
This is awesome . I have been walking by one of these everyday at my parents place and just stumbled across your video. Love your channel
ah thank you! you can have fun with it, and I'm sure i'll make more VCR videos down the road.
I think the VCR sounded best - no question about it to my ears. The flattest (lifeless - not frequency response) was direct into the computer. The reel-to-reel came in at a close second. Great video! Subbed your channel. 😎👍
thanks for watching listening, and subbing! let me know if there’s anything you’d like to see down the road! 🤘✌️
Just found your channel, great stuff, I’m sure you’ll be growing quickly.
One suggestion I’d make on A/B’ing sources for comparison - don’t make the cuts on beat, make them at completely random intervals. I find the differences are easier to hear that way on videos like this, maybe that’s just me though.. I realize it’s more of a pain when lining up different mixdowns coming from a cassette deck, but I think it’s worth it.
that’s a great suggestion! i think my type-a nature is why i put the change on downbeats. honestly the way i do it, it would be just as easy to make random. Thanks for checking it out!
When we played live, I would record all the audio off the board into a VHS tape. 2 hours of audio on one tape! The frequency response of a HiFi VCR, is really good!
Back in the early 90s, in what I now call "The Dark Years". I used to work at Radio Shack. And back then they still sold RtR, DAT, and DCC. But by far, the most popular recording media for garage bands and hobbyist musicians, was Hi-Fi Stereo VHS. You did have to have a pure audio source though. The recording quality was so good, that there was no noise reduction built in.
thanks for sharing!
Not so. VHS HiFi uses a system very similar to DBX. It's just "on" all the time, and not "advertised" to the consumer. There's no need for anyone (except an engineer) to know what's going on inside the machine.
@@njm1971nyc I don't think so. I think you're getting confused with the term DMPX which simply means Depth Multiplex, which refers to the deeper magnetic footprint that the audio signal occupies on the tape in relation to the video signal which non-destructively gets recorded over the top.
@@mbvideoselection umm, nope. 🤷♂️ Nothing to do with it being depth multiplexed. I remember a very boring talk with my slightly creepy boss at Technicolor Videocassette (when I was a "cute teenager" and he was a suspiciously single older man, hahaha, if you know what I mean!) anyway, he was singing the praises of LINEAR audio (seriously!) and slagging-off HiFi audio (or HD, High Dynamic, as Panasonic called it in the early days), because of its rather extreme DBX-style companding system. I still remember the graphs he showed me to illustrate his point. To be fair (to him), the linear audio of the JVC BR-7000 Duplicators was very good, but consumer VHS decks pretty much all had horrible linear audio heads/circuitry, so his point was rather moot. Copying/pasting this next paragraph, for the sake of speed...
"VHS-Hi-Fi system inherently uses a decilinear companding system that is nearly identical to dbx in function and operation. The companding is an integral part of the Hi-Fi spec, it cannot be disabled or avoided, and is in every VHS Hi-Fi recorder."
I've just discovered your channel over the last few weeks - amazing videos and good tunes too! 🙏
thanks for tuning in and listening! i like your name “serious things tomorrow”
@@MadeOnTape Thanks man! I make music under this name too - my Portastudio 414mkII is heavily involved!
nice! i’ll have to check it out!
Holy crap this video is straight out of the 80's man... and provides useful info with style?! Subscribed!
I'm actually about to demagnetize my Akai X-165D's heads in preparation to make a mixtape from my Technics SL-1200 MK6 (Japanese model).
thank you for the nice words and have fun with that Akai!!! 🙏
Man! The last video I commented on hooked me with that same tape deck I have, but serendipity lead me to this one after I just sorted through tons of older high end VCR recording and mixing equipment I almost just got rid of. Thanks for the new inspiration.
there’s almost always a way to utilize old stuff! Sylvia Massy is a big inspiration for me in that department. thanks for checking out the channel 🤘
This is great! I was just about to throw out an old vcr. Glad I saw this
you were about to send it to Radio Shack heaven
This channel is exactly what I needed, thank you!
that's very kind of you! 🙏
This is so cool…I have never even thought about recording sound into a VCR…I am in my mid 50’s,so I remember VCR’s very well…I had a HiFi VCR that sounded amazing back in the 80’s…but that was pre digital anything…except watches and calculators….I didn’t know you could just send audio into it….I may dig mine out and give it a shot….Absolutely great video..just found your channel by accident..I am subscribed now..I gotta see more..
thank you for sharing! Happy recording!
I just found your channel and I’m absolutely hooked
that’s very kind of you thank you. let me know if there’s any topic you’d like to see covered on the channel!
Hey, man.
This is a great channel!
hey thank you so much! 🙏🤘
Here you are a fellow believer of tapes and new subscriber from the super developed country of Mexico.
love 🇲🇽!!! thanks for watching 🙏
Suddenly, goodwill/salvation army stores and pawn shops, across the globe, are being emptied of VHS technology.
Great video, man!
Thank you for what you do.
Stay analog AND analogical, my friend...
analogical! love that, thank you!
Very cool and informative vid as always. What immediately comes to mind are successfully transferring any recordings done on blank VHS tapes to digital ( for combining tracks, etc.) , the hiss and how to eliminate it without the classic noise reduction, and how to actually check recording levels while recording onto VHS.
some VCRs had recording levels, but mine is an inexpensive model with a built-in limiter. Experimentation is the name of this game!
I honestly wasn't paying attention to this week's listening quiz, just digging the music. The VCR did, though, have a bit more top end to my ears.
thanks Josh! more new music coming
Wow. Mind...Blown! And it makes so much sense. I've currently been recording everything from 4 track cassette through a compressor pedal then to my audio interface and into a DAW strictly for uploading. No tweaking takes place in the Daw. And of course I've been G.A.S.ing for a reel to reel or a DAT recorder and this might be just what I'm looking for.
hopefully you have one lying around! they are not all equal, of course, but have fun!
VHS HiFi was very good for stereo and you can make a 6 hour party tape. Some JVC models had an improved system to get rid of head switching noise and those are the best ones for music. If there had been more development it could have been developed into the best analog recorder ever. I wish someone had done a format where all the heads were used for audio with no video track to maximize audio quality.
that would be very cool! I need to find some skilled machinists 😂 thanks for watching 🙏
Any advice on those JVC models, types?
@@WillemdaGuide The JVC HR-S7800U for sure but any of the later ones should have the anti head switching noise thing.
i enjoyed the video, back in the day i used to record my band rehearsals straight from the sounddesk on vhs tape, it sounded way better than recording onto cassette tape
oh that’s fascinating! so you mixed your band through console and recorded the stereo track? thanks for sharing!
Enjoyed your vid, and thought I would share my experiences with this largely unknown VCR "Hi-Fi" audio capability.
I used HI-FI vcr's for video dj work back in the 80's. At that time, Music video audio was terrible, so I would put together versions with decent audio quality myself.
After capturing a good quality video source, I would use this to record a 2nd generation video source syncing it alongside audio sourced from a CD or Vinyl and record it onto a Hi-Fi VCR.
I would then have a CD quality music vid to use on a pretty serious dj set up, video projector and big screen. This was hard or very exspensive to achieve in the 80's and even into the late 90's.
A few have made comments around the audio being linear and not helical scan. While its true there has always been a linear audio path and some even marketed a "Stereo VCR" which in reality just split the mono linear portion of the tape and used half the track for left and half for right, the sound might be stereo, but still garbage.
These are NOT the Hi-Fi vcr's which this youTube vid is refering to, and yeah, they probably do belong in a recycle bin.
For it to be useful at recording and playing back decent quality audio, there needs to be the words or a symbol "Hi-Fi" printed on the facia or tape loading flap or somewhere on the front.
"Hi-Fi" identifies it as having the helical scan audio function and from my experience, if you want to get the best out of one of these, choose one with audio record level controls.
The short falls as already commented on by others are real, being head switching distortion and pumping.
Some manufacturers offered better quality more expensive machines, or specifically targeted the audio function rather than just improved sound for a video soundtrack.
They spent more time and R&D minimising or working around these issues. Most people wont notice or care, but if your a critical audio listner and / or have a decent sound system, you will.
That said, they were and are a very cheap method of bulk recording at great quality. (outside the digital realm)
The first hifi vcr's were quite a bit more exspensive than a standard vcr with the pick of the domestic units being the JVC HR-D725.
Very well built unit with excellent picture quality, minimal head switching distortion, manual level controls and great functionality.
While I lusted after one of these, at the time it was just too exspensive, but I found the NEC 895 to be a badge job copy of the JVC for a lot less $ so ended up with the same that I could afford.
I bought or hired quite a few makes and models over the years using a number of them for DJ work and music for parties etc.
The other quality machine of mention would be most of the Panasonic models and a couple of the high end Mitsubishi's... If its an SVHS and a high end model even better.
A lot of the cheaper units I trialled did have the head switching distortion issues, and definately the pumping issue were there was an auto gain control (AGC) used instead of Level control.
One other comment I'd make, being as the helical scanned Hi-Fi audio layer is below the helical scanned video layer, better quality tape will allow the recording to last better as far as dropp outs. It's true you can use any tape and get similar results if the tape is sound, but being a magnetic tape it will suffer degradation over time and more so with el-cheapo formulas
Hope someone finds this interesting or useful.
Cheers !
I found this very interesting and useful! thank you for sharing your thoughtful experience!
Holy shit that was all very useful and interesting AF. Thank you. I am stumbling across this looking for a secret way into getting into tape but doing something different that still sounds great. I feel like the VCR sounds the best in this video and I have always loved the sound of VHS tapes I do not know why, I think I may go this route, any thoughts for me?
BTW, I’m trying to understand something here. It seems to me that the difference in sound quality should have been greater, seeing as how the TEAC is producing a Lofi signal while the VCR is Hifi. Can someone explain this to me?
I've gotten excellent results from a Panasonic Omnivision Hi-Fi VCR.
Different VCR’s can give you different results, but one thing to look for when doing this is changing from SP to EP tape speeds. It’s a little counter-intuitive, but most folks find that recording at the slower speed results in the same audio quality (and also may remove the hiss 🤓). Awesome video - maybe do a follow-up at some point! I’ve done stereo mixes with almost no audible hiss from a DAW. Cheers!
that is counter intuitive! i was planning on exploring EP vs SP, and some other follow ups... thanks for engaging!
@@MadeOnTape, I did some recording on VHS back in the 80s. I recorded a CD onto videotape at the slowest speed. Playing both back and switching between the two, I couldn't hear any difference. You can get 6 hours of better than reel-to-reel quality on a VHS tape.
Its actually pretty simple. MOST of the tape/head speed comes from the spinning head, not the tape moving. Video was severely affected, but audio, not so much!
There is no audio quality different between SP and EP when it comes to HiFi VCRs. It's a PCM audio track encoded. The only difference comes to physical quality and deteriation of the VHS tape itself. If it's degraded in certain areas, the HiFi track could drop out resulting in spots that send the VCR back to playing the linear mono audio track. And that's where quality matters the most. When recording linear/mono track, there's a huge difference between SP and EP.
Fun fact, if you have a VCR that has the "Audio Dub" feature, you can actually overwrite just the linear audio track. This is how radio stations saved money on tapes on LP (mid range speed) with 160 minute tapes recorded in LP.
First, play two shows at the same on separte channels.
HiFi Lch = Show 1
HiFi Rch = Show 2
then re-record on same VHS tape using 'audio dub' feature only to record over:
Linear Audio Mono = Show 3
all on a single tape lol -- RECing on any HiFi Stereo VCR will always record the HiFi and Linear tracks. But Audio Dub is a VCR editing feature that lets you overwrite just the Linear track. We learned this when editing wedding videos for clients when they would take their master tape home and only hear the original edits/raw audio...telling them to set their HiFi VCRs to mono or to watch a copy of the tape we provided that was mono only.
youre a fuckin rockstar bro i never even thought of using it.. the sound quality must be great.. still havent finished the video.. but i had to give my praise to your genius im definitely tyring this.. in this city most people sell them to second hand shops where they restore old machines all day
they can be hit or miss, but luckily they’re usually quite inexpensive!
I was born in 2000. I just plugged our VHS player into a TV because my grandma wanted to rewatch my parents' wedding. The sorry zoomers part hurts so bad:"D (btw I think you got a new sub)
ahhaha i adore my zoomer friends and will be the first to go to bat for them but still gotta take jabs here and there. Thanks for watching and hope the wedding was cool! 🤘
@@MadeOnTape oh yeah, it was cool as heck, people in 1998 were different😁
Great point. I'm an Xer that has to work at a PC most of the day. Love my DAW but am very interested in getting "off the grid" and using a VHS would make perfect sense in conjunction with an analog 4-track recorder. I want to get back to pure creativity that doesn't involve a mouse or keyboard. Thanks for the idea and inspiration! Keep up the great videos.
thanks for watching and listening!
Well done. During 1978, I bought a TEAC 3440 and was appalled at the signal to noise ratio. Using a test instrument set, it barely managed 50db, so I bought a dbx II 4 channel unit and that solved the problem. I was impressed with the sound quality of the VHS HiFi PCM system. All that good sound from a tape barely moving compared to the TEAC at 15 ips. That's my 10c worth.
thanks for sharing!
Alesis ADAT machines also used VHS tapes, and they can be had for very little 💰 these days. Cool video! I really enjoyed the comparison between all 3. 👍🎶👂🙂
thanks for sharing and watching! 🤘
That's what I wanted to know. Thank you very much!
Happy to help!
I came from Facebook, your sister posted this, so I gotta leave a view cause she cool af. My name is spook DeVille on Facebook🖤✨
she IS cool af. thanks for stopping by and checking it out! 🙏🤘
Cool channel man and thanks for all your vids!! I can hear a difference on reel to reel PAN. It is not centered, has more sound on right side
good ear! i had more issues with that back then and have dialed it in better these days 🙏 thanks for the kind words and let me know if there’s anything you’d like to see on the channel!
@@MadeOnTape cool and sorry my newbe english... i've been use an hi-fi stereo Panasonic VCR to two mics drums rec with very cool results, may be you have more nice tips to share. Thank you!
When CDs first came out in the 80’s i did some work for the Hard Rock Cafe and they opted to use HiFI VHS for their house music instead of a mega CD changer. The sound quality was superior to CDs and rivaled 15ips Reel to Reel audio quality. We used them to mix on.
thanks for sharing Scott! seemed like a great way to get a good amount of BGM
How did you mix on VHS? As far as I can tell you can have two individual tracks max on VHS due to it being a stereo format but that’s it I’d think.
@@nathanstein589 mixing down to a stereo master is what he means. We did it live with my band straight to vhs.
I saved so many songs VHS HiFi. It rivals digital. Sounds absolutely Awesome!
📼🤘
I recorded the a hip hop album on a HiFi JVC vcr back in 1998. That vcr had an independent audio recording function that allowed you to adjust the input recording gain. IMO nothing sounded better than the warmth of that vcr analog tape. Was able to reduce the hiss because of the independent audio gain function that vcr unit had. At the time my four track unit had stopped working and we did live takes of all the songs for the album. A Shure sm-58 through outboard compressor and slight reverb and the tracks straight through an Ensoniq ASR-10. All ran through a Yamaha 12 channel board right into the vcr. When you're a broke producer/engineer you get creative. Came out great.
amazing! thanks for sharing! i think i would still be interested in a VCr that has independent audio 🤔
Do you remember what model it was?
The analogue warmth was imagined. It's not recorded onto tape like an audio tape. It's non-linear FM.
Excellent video! I'm really impressed by the quality of the production! Just one thing, though.
VHS was always called "Video Home System," even as far back as its invention in 1976. The "Vertical Helical Scan" connotation is somewhat false. VHS home recording wasn't exactly vertical (the heads of a VHS VCR run at an angle, and as a result isn't vertical), and while VHS VCR's did record video helically, the patents of this form of tape recording belong to Ampex (back in 1961). JVC would have had to pay Ampex royalties to use that name as a result. There are articles from Popular Science in November of 1977 that debunks the use of the "Vertical Helical Scan" name.
That's just me being an OCD internet pedant though. This video was really good and informative otherwise. Keep up the excellent work!
yes! since publishing this video i learned that i was perpetuating a myth! if youtube let me cut in an edit i would have 😂
thanks for the kind words and insight 🙏
The audio on a "Hi-Fi" VHS is also recorded helically, not just the video. Hi-Fi VHS recorded an FM carrier along with the video. The audio was carried within the FM carrier.
Good job. I've always wondered.
Not bad. It was clear to me from the beginning the source material but I wasn't sure about the other two.
The VCR in my simple setup (old laptop, old cheap headphones) shows a larger spectrum.
it’s definitely a fun thing to mess around with for very very cheap 🤘
That great. Thanks for the videos
thanks for watching!
Yes, the SVHS Hifi machines work great for audio! Love them.
Very cool video. I would be really interested to see a mix done all in the box that is clean and digital and then sent through the VCR to see if it gives it any of that nice tape warmth.
definitely have more plans for the VCR! thanks for watching!
Great Topic. I guessed (3) correctly. Actually this is an old ambition of mines. For which I will be "experimenting" as well soon. Keep up the great content. Peace...Netm8kr
thank you for watching! This was a fun session and i hope you have fun/success with your experiments as well!
i absolutely love your show =)
Me and the guitarist in my band always used a VHS hifi - VCR in the 90´s for recording masters of our 4 track demo-mixes. Still sounds fine today.
thanks for sharing! 🙏🤘🤘🤘🙏
We did too!🤘
Many years ago I hooked up my VCR to my stereo system. The sound that it produced was outstanding. People were amazed how I was able to connect it to sound system. However eventually I disconnected it. But recently I purchased a Super VHS VCR machine off of Ebay. It was not that costly. It is a Toshiba with the VU metters. The unit feels like tank. I mean this unit has some weight. The sound that this thing produces is amazing. It blows away the sound of my old VCR. It rivals if not surpasses my Grundig TS 1000 10.5 reel to reel. If you are into music and stereo HI-FI, equipment, maybe you should consider purchasing one. VHS tapes can still be purchased from Ebay. I have purchased many. Again the sound is awesome. And it adds flavor to the sound system.
thank you for sharing! I agree there are some serious gems out there in the used market
Great video! Ive recorded to hifi VHS from my 4 track, really was cool! I didn't get any added noise like yours did. Actually, I couldn't tell the difference to my digital recording, it didn't add anything nor did it take away anything to be fair to the VHS. But for that reason I didn't bother with it again. Where as My Revox A77 really adds something when you record to it! Although that is expensive to maintain
ooohhh Revox A77. my VCR is SUPER cheap and i'm sure there are better ones...but like I said in the video, I'll probably use the VCR as a stereo bouncing machine.
Thanks for watching!
@@MadeOnTape 100 percent worth while to stay out the box
yo signed in just to comment, anyhow here's my 2 cents, cause I guessed them all correctly.
keep in mind it could be lucky guess but here are the things that tipped me off:
1 / The computer: All around highest clarity and less artifacts , the swells on the right channel gave it away
2 / The Reel 2 Reel: The innate EQ curves due to the nature of the tape composition and recording/playback standarts cause it to have a shelf around mids/mid-highs (by todays standarts I assume [as in with the luxury of our contemporary technology as Hi-freqs would be more diffucult in the yesteryear to produce and distrubute] ) and their own characteristic saturation and compresssion.
3/ The VCR: Well kind of like the reel to reel with these differences, Higher speed = More high frequency content and the characteristic saturation / compression is different than that of the R2R.
Let me know what you think!
hey there! I think that's an excellent assessment. What i'm loving about the comments is that most people can easily tell which is the computer. Thanks for signing in and checking it out!
The VCR most likely has auto gain control (AGC) which is why you hear more hiss, since it’s pumping up the gain on the lower levels. If you added more gain ahead of the VCR, like you suggested in the video, that would just effectively compress your recording.
yes! thank you for sharing!
Older video recorders also had level adjustment for audio. I have a working,, although ancient recorder that also, when a number of tracks were recorded on it, you could search them using the blank space between them...
I'm interested to try this at heavily levels, saturated, as I know how reel to reel behaves with the levels cranked but haven't tried with hi-fi VCR.
they used to master CDs using a VCR with a Pulse Code Modulator. This was before DAT.
What would be the best hi fi vcr to record audio on? Do they all record at the same high quality or is there a certain model that is better?
hey there! thanks for watching and the question.
Since my experience with VCRs is limited, i don’t want to give you a specific model recommendation. However, if you peruse the comments here, there are some solid recommendations.
what i will say is this: make sure the VCR says “hi-fi stereo” and was made after 1986/1987. if you go for an old machine, it might have mono and/or linear sound, which is low low fidelity.
…could sound cool tho! i might try to get my hands on an old machine one day to abuse and get weird with… cheers!
lovely irony that yr VHS deck is badged 'sony'....
this technique of recording stereo FM audio in the vertical guard-band was also used in betacam SP decks from around 1989 to 1993, when digibeta first came along.
btw, I called the teac, but couldn't tell the other two apart. most of the noise seemed to be on the original multi.
My "Gut" reaction was that they were all the same - direct recording to computer.
I just bought a Panasonic omnivision VCR for mixing down my Fostex model 80. I was using that same Teac model you have for mix down but it doesn’t seem to be the best for that task. It does have some fantastic output to it though, something about those “drive” knobs on the front can really crunch the audio in a pleasing way on the way out.
love the crunch on the TEAC! Sounds great on bass in particular. Thanks for watching!
That song is a bop. The claps go a little off beat thoughout but I thought it was groovy!
thank you for watching and listening!
Got it right, I worked with Reel-to-reel, the punch is recognisable. Computer sounded clean, VCR sounded weak.
I did a video just on the preamps of the TEAC and was shocked how much punch they have, especially for bass! thanks for watching
I could hear the hiss on the R2R, VHS had some rf noise because of the (not recorded) Picture, but it did sound as good as your R2R.
Some Hi-Fi VHS models had a digital display that would show the line inputs audio levels while also allowing user adjustment.
for sure! maybe one will show up on this channel down the road??? 🤔
I had a JVC HiFi VHS machine back in the day and I used it often to record during the night from digital satellite radio. I was very much into trance music then and there was this particular radio show at Saturday evening followed by a six-hours of nonstop livesets from various DJ's. The trusty JVC recorded many of those sets in the middle of the night and always in magnificent quality. I then transferred the best sets to MiniDisc. I still have all those MD's, I also still have the JVC although the latter hasn't been used in years and sits in the attic - the last time I tried it worked perfectly fine though. And 20 years later I also find myself still listening to those MD recordings, some sourced from a HiFi stereo VHS tape, itself recording from a satellite receiver that got it's signal from a satellite 25,000 miles away in space. And it just works and it sounds excellent. And the music is terrific.
Um, satellites aren't 25,000 miles above is in "space". 25,000 feet (roughly 5 miles) would be more like it. I think listening to all that trance crap has actually put you in one. Lol
You realize if the satellites were 25k miles in "space" you wouldn't hear jack shit.
There are three main orbits around Earth that humans use for manmade shite. The Geosynchronous orbit has a lot of broadcasting and communications satellites because it's easier to point at a fixed satellite than to track one, and these are over 20,000 miles away.
I've definitely heard of low earth orbit communications as well, and those are becoming quite sophisticated. But these are between 160Km and 2000 Km generally.
Satellite radio like Sirius/XM specifically, last time I knew, used Geosynchronous orbit. Of course, who can keep up with these things unless it's your industry?
electronics.howstuffworks.com/satellite-radio.htm
@@MadeOnTape Don't bother. You're talking to a flat earther. You and I both know you're absolutely right obviously but he is both to dumb and too proud to acknowledge that.
I recorded a band on a Mitsubishi Hifi Vcr. Cd sold well, sounded great
Listening test was very insightful! I am actually thinking of using my old Sharp Hifi Stereo VCR for recording audio for various compilations. While first I was expecting VCR to be the highest quality of the three sources, my ears happened to be chosing for option 2, the RTR. Unfortunately, this is the most expensive option. I hoped VCR would win, but to my ears RTR did. More punch in the sound, in some way.
well, the source material and how you mix into certainly matters! the VCR won’t change much to the sound whereas the RTR will! But if you plan ahead, anything can work!
thanks for watching and listening! 🙏
@@MadeOnTape you're welcome. If I read your reply correctly, I guess my perception of the sound of RTR could be somewhat biased, cause it seems to.have more "punch" and "warmth" which could technically translate to some kind of added distortion. This may also be the reason for the current vinyl revival,.cause.people experience distortion as "warmth". Anyway, I would still go for accuracy and actual HIFI, so I.ll go for the VCR and try to boost the incoming signal in order to reach best S/N ratio.
My old band back in the day we recorded all the live tracks on a fostex lr 16 16 track digital recorder using a biamp advantage one for preamps, mixed on reaper and the master 2 track sent to a JVC super vhs recorder. It was considered high end with the +4 dbu inputs. Interesting combo. Sounded good. Kinda added some warmth and certainly set the sound apart from a straight digital master. It still maintained a 20hz to 20kz response which was shocking
And labels still release stuff on VHS, like me.
You may want to use a VCR with a manual volume control, like the Panasonic NV-F65HQ, that was literally made for audio, it doesn't even do video in LP mode.
i've got an ebay search saved for one of these! Definitely looking for more control in the audio recording. thanks for the tip and watching!
@@MadeOnTape If you want a better pro equipment, then there are such devices as JVC ERA, or something form Sony's pro line, I have a DVCAM deck from the latter.
I STILL have the same setup, Porta-One and VHS Hi-Fi in my stable, occasionally use for grins instead of my HD24 and Audacity for mixdown. Since 1990.
Cool video. FYI, the helical scan only applies to video. The audio track is recorded / played back linearly with different heads.
I stand corrected - I read your pinned comment. I didn't know there was a difference between linear stereo and hifi stereo on VHS. Thanks - and again, great video!
Great video plus I still record with vhs tapes every day specially I get movies from Netflix and TH-cam Putting all that on my vhs tapes
Good channel and vibe.
much appreciated 🙏🤘
would earthing vcr help with hiss a usb when earthed comes out cleaner ?
Im going to mess around with this, i have a midas venice console, im assuming i set my main meters at 0db since my vcr has no record level settings
I worked with a Midas Venice f32 for a long time and love that console! Have fun!
Number 2 sounded best to me, glad I found it was reel tape. Back then they used really high end reel to reel recorders like Ampex 24 track.
Oh This is the thing i always wonder about it, Btw that track for comparisoin, will you release it?? this is really good
thanks for watching! this track was released on my fourth EP called “What Must I Test Upon This Machine”
this track is called “Upon This” and is steaming everywhere including madeontape.bandcamp.com
the original video is here th-cam.com/video/XQY281CTY7g/w-d-xo.html
Great stuff, man. My band back in the early 90's would "master" our 8-track recordings onto HiFi VHS. CD burning wasn't common place yet so we made due.
Interesting fact about a feature that rose out of a need for backward compatibility, non-HiFi VCR's recorded their audio linearly along the top of the tape. The HiFi models would lay down their helical audio using one amount of current, and then the video would be laid down right on top of it at a slightly different angle and current, but ALSO create the low fi linear track for compatibility. When playing back, generally due to lower quality tapes, there could be drop outs in the HiFi audio. The VCR would detect this by monitoring an FM carrier, and if it dropped out the machine would instantly switch over to the low fi audio, then back to HiFi when the carrier signal returned. Sort of like an automatic audio backup system. It was probably not noticeable to the untrained ear. The engineers of the day who figured that out were just phenomenal.
agreed! big kudos to engineers who developed VHS, it's super complicated. thanks for watching!
big kudos to you man genius you are im sure how the hell u know that
@@corystevenponzo7007 It was explained in class when I was at the Art Institute of Seattle, but I see there is a PDF file that Made on Tape linked to in the pinned message that goes way deeper into it.
"I don't want to get into the physics of this. I'm not a physician..." Oh god, I'm stealing this.
take it! thanks for watching 🙏
I didn’t hear THAT much hiss with the vcr, though. And I already knew that vcr’s could be used for music: Radio Shack used to put some music CD’s on vhs tapes at one of the stores here in Houston in the 80’s (before Stereo VCR’s were available) just to have music in the store.
I use JVC S-VHS to transfer old HI-FI tapes I made when I DJed back in the 1990s on HI-FI RCA decks. JVCs tend to have great sound and PICTURE as well. I started doing mixdowns HI-FI VHS From my TEAC 3340 tracks I was updating from 1978-1983. Then Computers hit in the 2000s and the better sound cards were hard to get and pricey. But the demos got did. HI-FI VHS was great except if you get the annoying HEAD SWITCHING NOISE. Around 100hz it's a low buzz. I'm sure there's a video somewhere on how to deal with it.
Glad you see you caught on.
love this advice! Also, as a born-and-raised Michigander, I appreciate you being here!
Hi. what want for 1 to 1 quality on VHS !
1. Need PAL or NTSC This is the Best Choice with 4.43 because on NTSC recording take more tape space for audio recording and Les for Video signal Then on Pal ,Left channel is 1.3Mhz Right Channel 1.7Mhz!
2. Need VHS with Long play (LP On PAL OR on NTSC Extended Play EP or (SLP)) Because on this mode lowered video quality but again take more space for AUDIO on tape !
3.HI-FI NICAM because minimum need on drum 2 Long play Head ,2 Standard Quality play Head !
4.Black signal generator on VHS calling this button (SIMUL) Or ( Test signal) on BACK This generate Black video signal ,need for tracking stable simulation because VHS tracking system looking this information for synchronization ! When not synchronize tracking system non stop looking and make on recording noises clicking like scratching noises !
ON VHS Without Black Screen Generation Need give in black screen video signal from another device get same results !
5.For best result need check some VHS Without Recording Level adjustment gives the best recordings when input 5 volts but on 0.5-0.7V results poor !
6. Example devices Panasonic NV-F125( NV-HD100AM) ,NV-F75,NV-F65,NV-FS 200 HQ, The best Choice NV-W1!
7. At last For the BEST QUALITY HI-FI Audio on VHS Need Recording ON NTSC ,4.43 ,EP or SLP ON PAL, LP , Black screen Video input or Black screen Generation, Don't forget about input Voltage!
When doo like that on the result getting Quality best then any professional Reel To Reel And DAT is well plenty models not giving that results !
Analog sound is the best ! :-)
Mastering engineer here (25 years of work). My guess was: 1 Computer, 2 VHS, 3 Reel to Reel. 1 was very clear as it has the sharpest transients and less bass/sub-bass, VHS and Reel to Reel had a bass-bump and both have somewhat smeary transients. But I could clearly not tell the difference between VHS and Reel to Reel. Actually, VHS (3) sounded a bit clearer to me overall than the Reel to Reel. Shows how good VHS HiFi was / is as a Reel to Reel alternative.
i really appreciate this from a mastering engineer! I trust your ears!
i have a couple of that model vcr, they have great sound
Could anyone respond? How do I record audio/ music onto vhs recorder without VU meters. Input vol. controls? Reel to reel has them, so do cassette decks. I have a hi fi vcr. The sound quality is excellent, but no meters. How do you record when you don’t know what the input signal/ volume is? How do you make a good recording without them?
my first suggestion is to just try and see how it sounds! The audio isn't being recorded like on a R2R, there's some kind of FM signal being produced and layered into the tape, so there's almost certainly none of the traditional value of a tape machine where you push it harder for saturation.
Just a fun clean analog sound! Hope this helps and thanks for watching!
Great video. Grab yourself a better VCR that has recording level adjustments so you can up the input. I have a Panasonic NV-F65 which you can manually adjust the record level and it has VU meters as well. Old machine but built like a tank. Quality is better then my reel to reel.
thanks! saved in my ebay searches now!
Billy Joe; a 4 track Teac R2R deck canNOT compete with a hifi VCR (with higher/wider frequency response). Only a 2-track professional r2r machine can. Audiophile.
It's nice to discover this new twist, if perhaps a tiny one, among the pursuits of home audio enthusiasts. After all, analog open reel has long made an impressive comeback, at least among some well heeled audiophiles who can afford to restore and/or upgrade their machines and who afford the now very high priced tape stock. To some degree renewed interest in analog recording is understandable, at least for recording live sessions, since arguably the best sounding A/D conversion two channel electronics can cost upwards of $3500. Indeed, two track 1/4" open reel can sound very good even at least at 7.5 ips, more so if gain stages are dc coupled, low DA film caps are used for supply bypassing, et al. I've never heard (nor have much interest in) today's premium open reel designs but a shoot out between one or more (e.g. a recapped and well aligned Ampex ATR-102 1/4" OR a "tapelifterless" Studer deck) and, say, a Sony or Panasonic VHS Hi-Fi VCR. While signal electronics build quality may likely be far better even in these stock open reel decks (lower distortion percentages?) , the H-Fi VCR may have wider and flatter frequency response, higher signal/noise ratio and far lower wow and flutter. Even more impressive is that both recording speed and tape stock formulation costs will be a mere fraction of what plagues open reel tape enthusiasts. Only open reel have rapid and precise razor blade editing and variable pitch control. But I submit that IF advanced circuit designers, like those here www.diyaudio.com ever got serious about revamping the R/P electronics of Hi-Fi VCRs (especially those with superior transport design and build quality), the VCR would become the best sounding AND most affordable analog recording device. And for starters there's certainly no shortage of VHS blank media on where it's being all but given away at ebay, craigslist and countless garage sales-many tapes with low mileage and oxide shed. Go for it!
thanks for sharing and for listening!
Greg, I think you are correct. I wonder if such a device exists. Actually, for the record I thought VCR sounded best in this video anyway. Really great insight man, maybe someone has done it already and/or will!
this video was more so a demonstration of why you should mixdown from your recorder onto a good tape machine instead of feeding into the computer directly cause both the VCR and the R2R sounded better to me
🙏🤘 thanks for listening and watching!
Hai fatto un bel video.il VHS e' famoso per avere una qualità audio perfetta,su questo non ci sono dubbi,infatti spesso e' stato usato dagli studi di registrazione per le registrazioni di prova,con una qualità del suono paragonabile al master.
thanks for the kind words and for watching!
Is it possible to get that warm tape saturated sound using vcr instead a reel to reel?
that's a great question! In short, not really. The VCR is very hi-def, almost like digital audio, so it doesn't impart any character to the sound like a Reel to Reel.
However, if you have a really old machine, they used to use linear mono audio. I'm sure something wacky could be done with that, but again, mono. thanks for watching!
Back in the day (mid 90s) a friend of mine's dad had a home studio where he recorded his stereo mixes to VHS, as it was the best compromise between sound quality, equipment cost, and space taken up.
Not all VCRs are equal, of course. The VCR I have now (an early-2000s super budget model, don't remember the manufacturer off hand) can play back great, but the front end on the input has a pretty sharp low pass somewhere around 8kHz so it's pretty useless for this purpose.
saw this comment on reddit, too! thanks for sharing! 🙏
i was sitting here hoping the VCR was number 2 because the way its effecting the kick drum sounds really nice compared to 1.
Good video! Sounded obvious to me which were which, but that being said, a VCR is a poor mans reel to reel to me. If I want analog, I will be reaching for my HIFI SuperDrive VCR with the appropriate line level input.
have fun!!!
I've heard tons of audio comparisons between VHS, multitrack cassettes, USB interfaces, reel-to-reel machines, and so on and I literally can never tell the difference between any of them. Maybe it's just because TH-cam audio is downgraded to 128 kbps, but in my humble opinion it doesn't really matter what medium you record to because they all sound the same. So, do which ever one is more fun or more practical for you!
this is the essence of my entire channel summarized ! love it and love your comment! 🙌🙏🤘
@@MadeOnTape 🥺🥺🥺🥺 thank you!!! 🥺🥺🥺🥺
I thought 2 was the VCR and the R2R was 3
Back in the 1990s I used HiFi Vhs to archive FM radio shows. Although the quality was excellent then, when I try to play them now the VCR struggles to find the HiFi track. It is strange that the image quality has not deteriorated but the HiFi track has. Now most of my recordings just get played via the linear track which sounds like am radio. Any ideas?
hmmm could it be the VCR itself? have you tried others?
@@MadeOnTape Yes I have. The Panny is probably the best with older tapes but my 2 JVC decks are about the same.
HiFi VCR uses companding circuitry to get that crazy high S/N ratio. So depending on the material you will hear the difference as there is a slight delay expanding the compressed audio on playback.
I liked the vcr honestly
but VHS players use a separate head for reading audio. Audio is printed to VHS as a separate track along the edges of the tape and is picked up by a separate stationary head after the video head., the reason video signal is on a spinning head is because of the amount of signal needed to produce video per cm is much more than what is required for audio.
thanks for watching and commenting! What you're saying was true in the early days of VHS, but starting in the late 80s audio became embedded in the helical video track. I think the confusion comes because all VCRs still have a stationary head for two main reasons:
1. so people with old VHS could still play their tapes
2. it also has an alignment track that we don't see or hear on the consumer side.
I highly recommend reading some of the articles I pinned in the top comment. Again, thanks for watching! This was a fun experiment and hope to see you back for more down the road!
Avid listener. I have an AKAI 747 R TO R. Then recently been seeing all the good things on the analog HiFi of the helical scan tape. I'm sold. My AKAI does not have this range especially at the VHS tape running at 6hr mode!!!! It is more compact so the Akai now is in the closet:( I'm listening to a playback of a Vollenweider album from days in grad school, recorded on Maxell XL. I'll miss my big old reel to reel for the visual but not for the sound of the hifi vcr!!:)